The Athletic Hockey Show - Are the St. Louis Blues good or just lucky?

Episode Date: March 26, 2025

Sean McIndoe and Shayna Goldman discuss the heater that the St. Louis Blues have been on as they continue to hunt for the final playoff slot in the West. They look at the playoff matchups if the NHL season were to end today, they dig deep into John Tortorella's curious postgame comments, after another brutal Philadelphia Flyers effort and they ask why the Winnipeg Jets and the Washington Capitals, the top two teams in the NHL, get no respect in playoff prognostication?You listen to us. Now, we want to hear from you. Click here to fill out a quick survey about you and your podcast habits.Host: Sean McIndoeWith: Shayna GoldmanExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Jeff Domet Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. What up, what up? It's the athletic hockey show. This episode is presented by E-Trade for Morgan Stanley. No Gentilly, no Frankie this week. Both are off. So you got me, Sean McIndoo, and I am joined by Shana Goldman on the Wednesday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. Hey, Shana.

How are you? Hi. I'm really energized. Really good. Love the morning. Right before we went on, our producer, Jeff, told us. us to bring the energy. So that's going to last about 30 seconds.

And there it went. Okay, good. Fun night in the NHL last night. Let's just start there. We are getting some clarity around the playoff races, not just in terms of who's in and who's out, but some of the potential matchups. We're going to talk about that.

But first, the game that I think got a lot of the focus last night, was the two eighth place teams from each conference facing each other with St. Louis versus Montreal Battle of the Wild Cards, battle of the teams that had been hot lately

and I just said battle a couple of times but it wasn't much of a battle. It was a bit of a stomping. What were your thoughts on the St. Louis Blues absolutely steamrolling the Montreal Canadians? Yeah, that was definitely a game I was excited for and I feel like

The schedule has helped, like, add some hype to this playoff race because you've had, you know, the Canucks versus the Blues in Montreal against the Islanders. Tonight, it's Islanders against the Canucks. And obviously, here you go, two eighth place teams going head to head. And it was, after the first period, not so exciting. You know, the Canadians have been really good at third period comeback. So I was watching it until the end going, okay, maybe there's a chance. but the blues really controlled play. And it's interesting, like you look at that team at five on five since Jim Montgomery

took over and obviously they've been really good, but they've been just lights out since four nations. They're fourth in the league in expected goals here at 55 percent. And they're outscoring opponents at 5 on 5, 48 to 22. And that number is what stands out to me the most because their shooting percentage is really high. It's, you know, 13%. They're saved percentage.

They have a 927 saved percentage of 5 on 5 since 4 nations. And part of me goes, well, that's a lot of luck working in their favor, but sometimes it's good to be lucky. I don't think they're lucky to be good. I think they're good to be lucky. Should we be talking more or at all about Jim Montgomery for Coach of the Year if this continues and they roll into the playoffs? I feel like we've all kind of already engraved Spencer Carberry's name on it.

And I'm good with that. And Dean Evanson as well, if Columbus could get into the playoffs. Obviously, Jim Montgomery, it's not a full season's work, but there's lots of precedent for guys getting to Jack Adams for teams they took over midway through the season. I don't know. Hearing those numbers that you just rolled off for since he took over, that's got to be the coaching change of the year so far, right? Yeah, and I think coaching changes that happen midyear. It's easier to compare like apples to apples in a sense because it's generally the same roster. Sure, they might make moves as the year goes on, but it's different from saying last year's,

version of the team versus this year's version of the team like Columbus where there were, you know, bigger changes in the offseason or even Washington from the time Carberry took over to, you know, last year. If Carberry won last year, like he deserved to and actually got the award, I think we'd be more open-minded this year to say Jim Montgomery should be in there or Dean Eveson has a true shot of getting it. And it feels like it's Carberry's award to lose this year. And yes, he's earned it. Like, he's number one in my book. I'm not saying that. But, you know, it's always that he didn't get it last year. Now he definitely should get it this year type thing.

So that's going to work against someone like Jim Montgomery, but I have no problem with him being top three on the ballot because I think we've all pretty much have one and two cemented, but that third spot has been really open. So why not? Yeah, it's such a weird award. Because you're right. If Carberry wins it last year, then he doesn't win it this year because nobody wins that award twice in a row.

It's only happened once ever. And that was Jacques Demers back in the 80s. So, you know, from your perspective, that might as well have been the 1920s. So. Come on. I'm not that young. Like, I know what the 80s were. Yeah, you've heard of the good.

That makes me feel better. Jim Montgomery, of course, won the award two years ago with the Boston Bruins. So that would be an interesting case as well. But we'll get to that at the end of the season. For now, the blues have to try to make the playoffs. Montreal Canadians have to try to make the playoffs. What a weird night for the Eastern bubble. Basically, nobody gets any points,

including the senators who lose in regulation of the sabers, and then you sort of grit your teeth and go, uh-oh, are we going to see a bunch of teams gaining ground, but no. Habs lose in regulation, penguins who weren't really in it, lose in regulations. Rangers lose in regulation, Red Wings. Lose, say with me, in regulation. Does anyone want to be the Eastern second wildcard team?

No, no, it's so frustrating. Because sometimes the race, you know, you go back like a month and a half ago and you're like, wow, all these teams are competing and it's fun. And then it goes to, oh, nobody wants this again. And then you have a moment where Montreal is really good, you know, coming out of four nations. You know, like they want it. So I feel like a lot of people are getting behind the hype of them, including me, because you're like this exciting.

This is an up-and-coming team. If they make the playoffs and losing round one, it's no big deal. They're just getting playoff experience. And you can twist it versus say a team like the Rangers or Islanders where you're like, you're just not good and you should go for a better draft pick because you're simply not good and you've gotten rid of so much draft capital. And the Rangers have to be pretty bad to keep their own pick this year. So it feels different.

But we're so back. We're so back in the nobody wants this spot. And it's tough because the energy shift from game to game from Montreal. Like that game against Koppel. Colorado on Saturday night was a banger. That was such an exciting third period because, you know, the young guns are driving the bus. They're doing everything they need to do. Sam Montepo has been excellent for them. And now you're getting the secondary scoring from guys like Gallagher and DeVorek and, you know, those veteran players that they have, that it's more

of a complete effort. And then and then they perform this way in the most underwhelming game, really disappointing. And yeah, nobody wants that spot. So I get it. Nobody wants to play Washington, I guess. Yeah, well, I mean, I guess shout out to the Islanders because they didn't play last night. And they were the big winners. They somehow gain ground on everybody without playing. You talk about who wants Washington. The matchups are starting to come into focus.

And I want your help. I've got a piece that I've committed to write for the end of this week. I haven't started yet. but where I'm supposed to go and look at the the first round matchups that could reasonably happen. I don't know what the cutoff for that is, but I got to try to figure this out and then do some sort of rating or ranking

about which ones I'm excited about. And I'm going to start with what might be, I don't know if it's a controversial take. I'm super excited for Colorado, Dallas, which feels like as close to a lock as anything that we have. And I'll say it right now, I'm not mad at the playoff format for giving us this absolute bangor matchup guaranteed in the first round rather than as a maybe, you know, hopefully if things play out in the second round.

I think this is pretty great. And I feel like that is far and away going to be the best. matchup of the first, at least on paper. Obviously, we got to wait and see how things turn out. But I feel like that's the one that you're looking at it going, okay, that's the main event for round one. Am I, am I wrong on that? Am I getting my hopes up too high? How is this all going to go horribly for me? No, I think you're right. I don't see how any other matchup happens. And I think everything else is so in flux that, you know, maybe right now we can get Battle of Florida, maybe we're getting Tampa, Toronto. Maybe we're getting Toronto, Ottawa. Like, who's to say?

Stars abs, it feels like we can dig her heels in and go, that is happening because if the wild were a little bit more healthy, we'd be having a different conversation, they're not. They're just not. I don't see it happening and nobody's catching Winnipeg either. So I love- A point gap between the Jets and the Stars for one and two, six-point gap between Colorado, Minnesota. That's not quite insurmountable, but it's close. Yeah. Home ice sort of up for grabs, although Dallas would have a significant lead in that. right now.

Yeah. It's going to be honest. Miko Rankin series, man. How great is that going to be? Listen, the quality of the matchup is going to be sick. And we got a preview of it recently. And it was a very good game, right? Like, I know the stars were outplayed through two periods, but it doesn't matter because

they came back in the third. It went to overtime. It gave you everything and more. This series last year was outstanding. My issue, my gripe, as a fan of watching this game and sitting and watching all the best playoff matchups and this and that, like, I'm. I love this, that we're going to get a guarantee of it instead of maybe they'll face off again or maybe next year because who knows who's going to make it's round two. My issue with it is, these are two of the

best in the West and they're not getting rewarded for it. It's the same as Winnipeg, you know, getting Colorado in round one last year. Like it didn't feel fair and somebody else is going to sneak through that maybe doesn't deserve it. But if you put that aside and just focus on the fun of the matchup, this is, this is, you know, an amazing one. But I am so, so curious about Dallas because to me, the aves, and I'm biased, I, like, I pick the abs day one of the season as my best in the West. And all of the player movement they've done has only kind of like confirmed that for me. And then you have Dallas who are now that, you know, the easy favorites. I am starting to get worried about the Dallas stars in the month of March.

And had they lost to Minnesota or played terribly again at five on five like they did against the flyers, I would have had that story yesterday. And they decided to have one good game to like stop me in my track. So I was really digging into the numbers at five on five. And I am so underwhelmed by them. And it's not since they got rancid and I know everyone wants to put the blame on him. It's everything. And I'm worried about that defense without Hayskin in a series against Colorado,

how guys like Smith and Ilya Lubushkin are going to hand, and C.C. are going to handle the speed of the abs, especially if they keep NACIS and McKinnon split up. And if people missed it a few days ago, basically Dowell saying they may not have their ice going in the first round or certainly for the entire thing. And I think a lot of us when that injury happened and then they come back from Four Nations and he goes on the LTIR, we all kind of go, okay, wink, nudge, we know what's, you know, he'll be fine for game one.

It's the old Vegas trick. But that doesn't sound like it's any sort of guarantee. Maybe it doesn't even sound like it's likely. And you're right. That could be huge. I'll just say this. On the, you know, is it fair to those two teams to have to play in round one? Is it fair that one of those teams is going to get knocked out?

Not necessarily. But I got to say, this is, in this era of the NHL, 16 good teams make the playoffs. There really aren't any. It's not like, you know, when I was growing up where the Minnesota North Stars would get 50 points and they'd sneak in because the Leafs had 48 and somebody had to get. at the last spot. And then they would just absolutely get their doors kicked in in the first round. You don't really see that anymore. There's 16 good teams, which means if you're going to win the Stanley Cup, you've got to

beat four good teams. And if you're Dallas or Colorado, the road to the Stanley Cup should go through that other team at some point. And yeah, maybe it should be in round two instead of round one. But you got to beat everyone. And, you know, yeah, it means that one of these teams maybe gets robbed of saying we want a round more than we would have. I constantly am told that it doesn't matter how many rounds you win.

You win the cup or you don't. You win the cup or you got nothing to celebrate. So whoever wins the cup has got to be four good teams. I don't, I've got no objection to one through eight. If people want to switch to that, I get that argument. I like it. I'd be fine with that. But this idea that the biggest criticism of 1V4 is that occasionally it serves up

just an absolute A plus matchup, guaranteed on a silver platter, rather than making us hope for it in round two or three. I don't know, man, I don't hate it. This matchup's going to be so good. It's going to be a sweep now that I've said that, isn't it? Like, I'm going to be so disappointed. Listen, we were pumped about, was it Battle of Florida last year? And it was like no competition.

And round one, like, yeah, they beat the hell out of each other, but it wasn't what it could have been. And, you know, it wasn't as competitive. If we get a sweep, I hope. triple overtime every single night. I would be so disappointed. But no, I'm a, I'm a one to eight, girlie. I am a reward the division winners that they're one and two.

And then you have a higher percentage chance of having, you know, division versus division in the conference final because it seems like that's something the league wants. And yeah, like, you're not getting an easy match. You're the abs. You're the aves. You're getting the Kings. You're the Stars.

Oilers has been one of my favorite matchups. I am pumped to watch that game tonight, even though no dry side. I don't know McDavid. but, you know, I'll live that it's stars as I'm going to complain up until it happens. And then once it happens, I'm going to like sit down, kick my feet up and enjoy it. So, you know, I'm a hypocrite and then I'm not going to be someone that's like, well, I can't watch this now. It's just I'm going to point out that it's flawed because that's what I need to do about everything in the NHL. In the spirit of continuing to write my article for me, you just mentioned the kings and the Oilers.

We're getting this again. Now, I just said I don't mind 1V4, but I feel like this matchup is maybe the best argument against 1V4 in the sense that you have two teams that are rivals. They have a long history, been in the same division for as long as I can remember in various formats. Now they're going to play in the first round for the fourth straight year. And I just feel like nobody wants this. I don't feel like anybody's like, yes, chapter four of this division rivalry, everybody's just like, oh, for God, give us something different. Now, I mean, the difference this time is that it may be L.A. with home ice, which could be big, given how they've played this year. But am I, like, am I sleeping on this? Is there anything here to get excited about?

Or is this like just the same leftovers for the fourth day in a row? Okay, I'm very hot and cold on how I feel about this one, because year one of it, I was hyped. I'm like, all right, maybe there's a chance. Year three, I'm like, it's the oilers. It's not happening, right? And this year, even two weeks ago, I'm looking at it, like, the oilers are going to, are going to, like, walk through them. It's no big deal. And I feel like that's not, it's selling the king short.

Like, they're elite at five on five. They're elite on home ice. I like the addition of Kuzmanko. I wish they got him plus one other guy. But the fact that Kevin Fial remembered, he's a really good player. You know, he's like their own trade deadline edition, if you want to think of it that way, that's a deep lineup. They can play the matchup game better than most. If they can find a way to not just play defense against the Oilers and force the Oilers play

defense, they have a shot, but as flawed as this Oilers team is, and they are, I still like them better because you know, Dry Saddle can take over a playoff series. You know McDavid can. The addition of Jake Walman, I think, is 10 out of 10 perfect. that I still go, it's the oilers. But maybe, maybe if it could go to six games and be interesting, I'll be okay with it enough. But the two versus three matchup is the one I just,

I have my biggest gripe with in this format, right? Like one verse four, you're generally getting the same as one verse eight, but two versus three, you're going to get similar matchups like this over and over again. Okay. I'm furiously taking notes as we go. The last one I need help with, you mentioned the Battle of Florida last year how it didn't really deliver.

I'm really going back and forth on what to do with the matchups I'm rooting for in the Atlantic. Because in theory, the obvious answer is Battle of Florida, Battle of Ontario. Battle of Florida has been raging for years now. We've had multiple matchups. Battle of Ontario has been on hold. for two decades now, as far as a playoff rivalry. So don't overthink it and take that. But there is a part of me that goes, you know what,

Toronto, Tampa again, could be a lot of fun. And Ottawa, Florida, the Battle of the Kachuk brothers, wouldn't that be a wild one to see? Am I getting too cute? Should we just be rooting for the classic geographic rivalries or is Maddie versus Brady with Keith wearing the jersey split down the middle up in the stands? Is that the real main event? Yeah, I all season have been like, I don't want Battle of Florida round one. I want it round two.

Sorry, Leaves, but I had the passion for a very long time. and Craig Bruby took it out of me. So no, I no longer care. I'm sorry. I would always watch like every Leaves game in this year. I'm like, why am I doing this to myself? You bore me. So, you know, yeah, it's just not very fun that I'm going.

Don't let the two Florida teams advance. They were, you know, the two big guns at the deadline. And again, showing my bias, the lightning were my team to beat in the east going into this year. I'm like, you know what? They have the juice again. They're going to do it. So I'd like to see Toronto, Tampa, and then see. the Leaves, I'm sorry, the lightning move on for a battle of Florida round two.

That being said, since the senators have kind of like cemented, not cemented, but firmed up their spot as the top wildcard seed in the east because nobody wants wildcard two. And we get this other potential. I'm like, you know, you're not, you're not going to get senators in round two, I don't think, unless it's like an upset for the ages. you still have this potential for Ottawa, Florida, Toronto, Tampa, Senators Lightning. Who's to say that I don't mind it if that's what we actually get in round one?

As much as I was rooting against that the whole time, like you thinking, okay, Battle of Chucks could be fun in Toronto, Tampa. I'll take that again, right? Like, the Kings Oilers were bored of Toronto Tampa. It's gone both ways. And I'm like, I'm very intrigued there. even if that Catee's up, Leafs Panthers round two, who's going to complain about that?

Like, we want that. We want Florida to go for it again. But there's something about Leaf Senators. And there was a game earlier this season, actually. It was a Saturday night game in Ottawa. And the crowd was so blue I didn't know who the home team was until the anthem singer came out with the mic. And I texted Dom and I'm like,

maybe I've just been missing this because, you know, we have that here. Like Rangers Devils, you see a Devils game. A lot of Ranger fans are going to it because it's cheaper, it's easier than going to the garden. And I guess I just didn't realize how much that was the case there. And the game was amazing. The vibes were great. The fans were great. And I'm like,

you know, a playoff series like that, like, welcome back to the playoff picture, Ottawa Senators. Here's the Leafs to potentially upset. And here's these like split buildings. There's something about it to me that I'm like, that would bring a fun first round energy. It would bring, it would bring an energy, whether it would be fun or not. I don't know. I'm glad this is not a video podcast so that people could not see the face that I made when you said Ottawa wouldn't be in round two. I will tell you right now, this is not analysis. This is not me looking at lineups or anything. This is just going off of decades and decades of knowing what it is to be a leaf fan.

If we get Leaf Senators, senators are winning that series. I could see it. I could see it. And like, as it came out of my mouth, I'm like, why am I manifesting that? This high paid superstar, big shot, this is our final chance. We really mean at this time, Leaves Steam doesn't run into their scrawny kid brother who's finally ready to, you know, to get out on the driveway and compete with them. And absolutely face plan. No chance.

On that happy note, we will take a break. And we'll come back in segment two. We're going to talk about two incredibly disrespected teams, disrespected by everybody. including us just now, and we'll talk about why that is. Before we get back to the show, you listen to us. Now we want to hear from you. We're asking you to fill out a quick survey about you and your podcast habits by going to theathletic.com slash athletics slash survey 25.

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Let us know what you think. All right. So here is who might be giving us some negative feedback. Is the fans of two teams in particular that we barely mentioned in that first segment. When we're talking about all the playoffs are going to be so fun and there's all these cool matchups and we were breaking down. The two eight seeds playing each other. Well, last night the two one seeds played each other as well.

And in fact, not just the two one seeds, the two teams, one in each conference, who are running away with those conferences, the only two teams that are in the running for the president's trophy, the two teams that have been neck and neck all year as leading the standings, any other season, we would be pointing at game 70, between those two teams and saying, there's your Stanley Cup final. Here's your appetizer for the main event that we're going to get in May and June. And yet last night, Washington at Winnipeg, I didn't feel any of that buzz for this from anywhere

because nobody seems to really believe that these two teams are the best two teams in the league, despite the fact that all season long they have been showing us. what is going on here? Are we just all, are we sleeping? Are we all so stubborn that we just can't admit that we were wrong about these teams and have been all year long? Or is there still something to suggest that, you know, these are paper tigers to some extent? Yes, to all three things. Yeah, no, there wasn't a lot of buzz because I was watching the Capitals, what was it, Sunday, Saturday, when they played the Panthers.

And I was watching the broadcast and they're like, you know, tune back in, Tuesday. We will be here against the Jets. It is a battle of the best on best in each conference. And I was like, oh, sick, all right. And I was very surprised, like, once I heard that, because I like to look ahead at the schedule and plan what I want to watch for the week. And obviously it changes, but it helps me decide what I'm writing and focusing on and things like that. And I knew immediately, I'm like, sign me up for that.

I will be watching that. So I had that game on and I had the Blues Canadiens game. And it was a very good game, right? Like goes to overtime, Eelers with the winner. It was very exciting, everything about it. and the Jets wore their perfect jersey, so just really, the whole picture, really great. But it didn't get the buzz it should have.

And I do think it's because, one, other teams in each conference are getting more hype, right? We're talking about the Panthers and Leaves loading up at the deadline. We're talking about how the stars and aves did. The Jets didn't do a ton and neither did the capitals. And you could say they didn't need to do a ton. I would argue I would have wanted to see if I'm Winnipeg, and I would want a two see who's good in postseason situations,

which sometimes gets overhyped. But I think that helps some of the guys on their roster who at this point, you do have to ask, like, hey, can Eilers bring it in a postseason environment right there? But I think it's, I think we're underselling both of them. The capitals all year people are like, no, this will run out. No, they're legitimately good. And sure, Dylan Strom isn't Connor McDavid, right? Like, they don't have the first line of everybody's dreams.

But that top nine is really good. That top six is really good. All three defensive pairs are really good. They have two goaltenders. And with the Jets, it's easier to say, well, it's Connor Hellenbuck and everybody else. And yes, he's been otherworldly this year. But the defensive team, like, has been much better than they have been in years past. The offense is there.

Like, these are two really well-rounded teams who I would be absolutely shocked if they got upset in round one. This isn't the Leafs getting upset or even the Panthers. And I think, you know, there's ways to see how the stars could lose in an early round series. The Jets and the Capitals, like, if Connor Hellebuck stops playing well and is just crushed by his workload by the postseason. I don't think it's a pressure thing anymore. I think it's just that they're running him into the ground before the playoffs start. You know, there's still a good team there that should be able to push them along, whether it's the Canucks or the Blues, right? As hot as the Blues have been. And the Capitals, too, I would be shocked if this team gets eliminated. We're not hyping it up enough,

right? Because let's say the Jets advance when they do, if they do, whatever. They're getting the winner of the abs and stars. That's a banger right there. If they make it through that, they could get someone like Vegas or Edmonton, another absolute banger. Like, are they going to low-key slide through the playoffs and we're not going to respect them until they take out a team like Colorado if they're losing to them in recent years or a team like Vegas who they haven't made it past? Maybe we still wouldn't respect them at that point. I don't know.

It's so fascinating to me because, especially Washington, because, look, last year they make the playoffs and everyone points to them and goes, yeah, but they're a bad playoff team. I said in the previous segment, I'm like, there's no bad. playoff teams anymore. Well, last year's capital is kind of put their hand. Because they had the big negative goals differential. Yep. You know, some of the underlying numbers and all of that.

And so it's, you know, maybe if you're not really paying attention, you kind of go, all right. So sometimes teams just get hot, maybe even lucky for a year. Sometimes they do it for a year and a half. But the thing with the capitals is you look at those numbers now and those numbers have, for the most part turned around. This is no longer a so-so team getting good results, which happens all the time in the NHL for a season or a segment of a season.

This is now a legitimately good team. Is it as simple as just maybe it's not disrespect? Maybe we can't focus our brains on two things at the same time. So we're also focused on Ovechkin chasing the record that we're just missing the fact that this team is a powerhouse and he's going to break the record and we're going to do the ceremony and everything and then we're going to just kind of, you know, in that post record clarity, go, wait a second, this capital's team is super good. Yeah, that totally could happen. And it's, I think, too, it's like forgetting how much that team grew last year.

Like, when they got eliminated last year, it was my job to write like the post-mortem and say, where does this team go from here? And it was like, well, this team might be screwed because they don't. have a ton of talent. The young guys haven't advanced, but we still have to give credit to the fact that Spencer Carberry did a lot with the little. And you really saw midseason this team just pick it up a notch. And I don't think anyone saw the offseason coming that they had, right? They cleared out a ton of cap space. They brought in all these reclamation projects. That Darcy Kemper for Pier Luke Du Bois trade. I kind of liked in the moment. So I'm like, I understand it a lot for both of them. But you look at how it's aging for both teams. You're like, what a deal that really

was for both sides of it. they put in the work to retool this roster to match the coaching levels that Spencer Carberry was bringing behind the bench. You're a great coach. Now here's some like legit players. And now you see the guys like Protis and Mick Michael becoming household names because they're so good in Sandine adjusting to playing those big minutes. Like I feel like all the fundamentals are in place and all the building blocks were there

with the coaching staff that they were able to take this roster and bring it up to the next level. They're definitely greater than the sum of their parts. but I also think we're underrating some of those parts and how good Dubois has been there and how good Chickren has been there in, you know, very specific usage, sure, but they know that. They recognize that, right? Because you see the Chickren extension. Some of the conversation is like, does he deserve this money?

And you could say no, but if the caps recognize this is how to get the best out of him and they can keep doing that, there's a value there, right? It's, you're right, because they went and added in the off season. And I know there were Capitals fans who were sitting there going, wait a second, walk me through this. We make the playoffs. We get better in the off season. And then the new season starts and all of the experts, including Sean, probably including Shane. I don't remember.

Every expert has the Capitals out of the playoffs. And how does a playoff team get better and then lose their spot? And the answer for a lot of us was, yeah, but we needed that spot. Because it felt like six or seven of the spots in the east were already locked up. We all figured New Jersey was back in. Nobody saw Boston or the Rangers dropping the way they did. So we needed that spot for like an Ottawa or Detroit or whoever. So sorry, Washington.

You know, the narrative takes precedence. And now I'm sure a lot of Caps fans are going, yeah, this. No, nobody thought they were going to be the president's trophy winner. And I should point out, I do, you know, I do this preseason. contest where I ask you know just tell me what's going to happen very easy questions and one of the questions is give me five teams that you are

very confident are going to make the playoffs and we get thousands of entries you know how many people pick the Washington Capitals as one of their five playoff locks 10 zero not a single person in the entire contest pick the capitals

to be to be a playoff lock now that doesn't doesn't mean people didn't think they were going to make the playoffs, but nobody was willing to, you know, confidently say. And that's part of the reason I love to do the contest is so that at this time of year when people go, you guys were all sleeping, the real fans, the real people, you know, we knew that the cat. No, you didn't. Not one of you did. But here we are. You mentioned Jacob Chikrin in the contract. So numbers wise, how does that, that sort of raise my eyebrows when I saw how big that number was. Should it, or is this a case of? He's younger than a lot of people think. Like you don't often see guys get this kind of contract until they're like 28, 29. He's 26. So they're getting some of that prime in this. Is this a risk or is this a shiny new toy or is this fine?

I want to go back to one thing first, like how you mentioned how nobody had the cabs. To me, that makes it all the more interesting. I love it when we're wrong. Like I know people don't think that like, oh, you, the model said that, great. I want to know why. I want to investigate it further. I want to dig deep into it because we're going to learn something.

The blues, we all counted out. And look at them now. They're in the playoff race. The Canucks, a lot of people had locked into the playoffs. What went wrong and what can we learn about it? And what can other teams learn about it? Because now the capitals are this model of how do you retool on the fly? When it comes to Chickren, it's high.

It's high for me. I know he's been really good this year. And they are betting on this level of his game going forward. And they have reason to, right? They used him in a way that he actually. should be played. He's not playing up against top competition. He's getting to play to his offensive strengths. You see that he's shooting the puck a ton. He's scoring goals. He's doing a better job breaking out of his own zone. He's doing the things he needs to do to be successful. And that

has value versus whatever they did in Arizona to kind of like package him up and make them look really good only to fall flat in Ottawa when the senators were not as good of a team last year and he was used improperly. So they're betting on the value that he brings to the lineup right now. And in a growing cap world, there's a way to justify that and say, okay, it's fine, right? Like, that'll work. I'm a little bit worried for like two or three reasons. Like one, it's not even the durability anymore. It's the usage factor.

Right now he's a number two on a very good team to John Carlson. And at 26 years old, there is that path for him to become the number one. Maybe they can, you know, he can learn to play those minutes. Rasmus Sandin struggled in matchup minutes and the caps worked with him and helped him, you know, build that to his workload. And now he can handle it. So there's still that path to saying he could start taking those on in time and be fine. But to pay someone who you have to use in a very particular way that cost is a little high because even if you go by cap percentage, right? Because growing cap world that that salary isn't the same as what it was two years ago,

only a few players, only a few defensemen hit that 9% range. And I think his cap hit is going to be 9.9.4. percent of the cap next season. It's guys like Sergachev and Sanderson and Dahlene and Owen Power. So it's franchise cornerstones. And the only guys who aren't franchise cornerstones who are getting that kind of, you know, cap hit percentage or guys like Demetio Orlov who send it to your deal. So it doesn't have the risk of going eight years. So I want to give caps front office more credit because I really do think they know what

they're doing. And I think we need to after the last couple of seasons, the way they've, you know, retooled themselves into this contender. but I don't know if Chikrin's ceiling is the number one guy or if this number two role is the sweet spot and if that's the case, it's just a little bit high for me. And this is usually the part where the fan base gets mad, but maybe not for Washington.

Maybe they might be sitting there going good. Keep doubting us. Keep saying we may, you know, go ahead. By the way, just to circle back to that contest where zero people thought the capitals were making the playoffs, The most common responses, Edmonton and Dallas were won two. They're going to make it. Number three, New York Rangers.

Everybody was sure that the reigning President's trophy winning New York Rangers were definitely making the playoffs. So as always with the NHL, none of us know everything. None of us know much. Some of us don't know anything. And we're just all making it up as we go along. We will continue to make it up in segment three right after this break. We are back. It's segment three.

This is where we talk about what we learned. What have we learned, Sean? I'll tell you what I learned this week. People still don't understand goaltender interference. I'm one of them. We had another one. Islanders Blue Jackets. A dramatic, almost buzzer-beating goal with 10 seconds left to win the game for the islanders,

except it doesn't because it's waved off for goaltender interference. and people are mad. Islander fans are mad. The Islanders broadcasters were mad because that was the game I was watching up here on the feed. They didn't like the call.

Kyle Palmary was really mad. And Patrick Waugh is mad. Now, all of those people I just mentioned have a direct reason to be rooting for the Islanders. So I don't mind them being mad. But for

those of us who are neutral. Where did you fall on this one? Okay. I think the original call on the ice was going to stand. That is what happens, right? Like that is usually the way it is. I could see the case where they thought Kyle Palmary was going to skate into the blue paint.

Therefore, it would have been going to appearance. But he didn't. He was stopped by Merse-Lankins. And if Merz-Lakins didn't reach out, I think he would have held his position better. And again, maybe there would have been a collision. And then it's goal interference. And I'm like, okay, wave that goal off.

But since that wasn't the case and he initiated the contact and Palmary never went into the blue paint, I didn't think the goal should have been waved up. But I think it comes down to like it was a long review, I think, because it was called no goal on the ice, which is. It was a really long review. Right. And I think they're looking at it going, oh, is there a way we can overturn this with certainty? And there isn't, you know, because it's much harder to overturn versus uphold a call. So I was very surprised in that moment of the game, you see a goal overturned in the moment, which does not happen very often.

And that is why I think the decision was the way it was, but I didn't love it. So please tell me how I'm wrong. First of all, you're not wrong about the review. This is something that has sort of changed and evolved a bit over the years where in the last few years, when it comes to the goal of interference calls, it's very clear that the league is saying, look, guys, we are looking for. obvious misses. Absent that, call on the ice is going to stand, which I would argue is the way it should be.

Now, Patrick Waugh and others in the aftermath of this have sort of made the argument that, hey, once you go to review, just figure it out based on the review. Don't worry about what the call on the ice was. But I, I, to me, that just makes the situation worse. I've said for years,

we shouldn't be doing offside reviews because, or sorry, well, we shouldn't be doing offside reviews, but at least offside reviews are in theory black and white. We should definitely not be doing goldy interference reviews because there is so much in that rule that is subjective. There is so much that is based on opinion and feel and, you know, all this stuff that you just can't get from a replay. It doesn't matter how you freeze frame it. It doesn't matter how far you zoom in. You're never going to get that one view that makes everybody say, oh, now we all agree on intent, which, you know, is, or now we all agree on.

whether the goalie had enough time to reset. That's not how this works. And when you say we're going to do this to get it right, and then you show a review and a replay that doesn't make people feel like you got it right, you just wind up with fans being cranky. Now, I did think it was interference. I thought the contact was in the blue paint. It was close.

But to me, this is a classic sort of case where it's like, hey, if you're Kyle Palmer, you've got to be careful. you can't go in the blue paint. There was no defenseman pushing him in. There was none of that to argue about. You just can't go in the blue paint. That is the goalie space. And the NHL rulebook actually has kind of,

I don't remember the exact wording, but it's kind of funny. They basically say in one of the sections, if you go in the blue paint, bad things can happen. And that's it. Don't, you don't want to lose a goal. Don't go in the blue paint.

And if he's just a few inches north, then it's fine. As far as the goalie initiating contact, it doesn't matter. If it's in the crease, if it's in the crease, the goalie can initiate whatever contact he wants because that's his space.

He can defend it. He can push a guy out of the way. He can put his glove on a back and try to look around all of that is fine. I like the call on the ice, but I admit it was close. And I like that we got an emphatic call and not this kind of thing

where the rest are sort of look at each other and go, well, we don't really know. let's kick it upstairs. I like that we got an emphatic call. I think it was the right call, although I admit that this one was close. This one was a tough one. And I agree with you that it was absolutely one

that was not going to get overturned on review based on how they've been doing it. There just wasn't anything there to tell us that this was a mistake. But I get why other fans are mad. I get why Patrick was, Matt, because he's a coach. And coaches are supposed to care,

which maybe leads us into something else that we learned this week. Yeah. So John Tortorella has intrigued the world once again with this postgame comments. So the Flyers had a terrible game. Again, they allowed seven goals for the second consecutive game. This falls on me. I'm not really interested in learning how to coach this type, in this type of season where we're at right now.

but I have to do a better job. So this falls on me getting the team prepared to play the proper way until we get to the end. And it reminds me of something he said last year, actually, when he was saying, like, he didn't properly prepare his team enough for where they were at post-deadline. And,

you know, they had better results last season. I think that you could look at it three different ways. The easy way to say is, this guy doesn't want to coach this team anymore and he's asking to be fired. I don't buy that. I'm sorry. I don't,

especially not from John Tortorella. I think he's saying, like he doesn't want to be this coach that has to learn how to go through the crappier parts of the season, right? He's saying, I don't want to be the coach that has to learn how to like navigate losing seven straight with my team because at this point of the year, I want to be playing meaningful games. So I understand that.

That checks out. He's never been a rebuilding coach before really. So you have that element to it. And also like he wants his team to be good and in the playoff mix and taking those next steps. He might be saying I don't want to learn how to coach this part of the season, but he's going to have to do it anyway. And that falls on him to be better prepared for this. But ideally next year, you're not in this same situation where you're this bad when the game still matter, right? For everybody else, you want it that you're taking that next step and rounding the corner.

Maybe I'm looking at it too positively in saying that, but I don't know. I don't, I didn't think it was like that malicious of a comment. Yeah, there's no, there's no room. for positive viewpoints on on on anyone here we we've got to we've got to attack this guy I what I found interesting was you know and I'll keep going on

on some of the other things he said he says I know where we're at let's not dodge that they know where they're at referring to the players I think I have a better understanding of the situation we're in as a guy that's been in the league I think I understand what some of the players are going through it's not the time to kick them which first of all Jesus, this is the new John Tortorella doesn't want to kick people.

I thought that was interesting, though, for a couple of reasons. One, it is a very human response to say like, hey, man, this sucks. No, I'm not going to scream and yell at guys and I'm not going to do all this stuff. I thought it was very interesting that he says that in a game where he benches Cam York. You know, in Toronto, very obviously and publicly, I'm sure Cam York's sort of like, oh, okay, good to know that we're not kicking anyone when I didn't get to play the last 50s. minutes of the game. But, you know, what he's saying? We know where we're at. We're nowhere. He's not saying we stink, but he is saying that. He's saying this team isn't good. We can't compete with the better teams. We're going to lose a bunch of games. And this sucks and we hate it, but it is

what it is. And I guess you give them credit for recognizing that. I don't think certainly a team like Philadelphia that has been bad for a while now. And they're doing a rebuild and, you know, this is, this is part of it. But they probably don't want a bunch of smoke blown up there behind, especially in that market. So you get that. But I just keep going back to that, you know, not to pull one line, but I'm not really interested in learning how to coach in this type of season.

Maybe it just came out wrong. But that seems very, to hear a coach say, I'm not interested. in learning how to do this. I mean, I get it. It's a guy who's been around 20 years, he's got a cup ring. Maybe he shouldn't be expected to learn how to do this. But I don't know, man. Any other player, anything saying, I'm not, I'm not interested in learning how to adjust.

I feel like it would be an issue. And hearing it from Tortorella, maybe it's just because it's so out of character, or maybe it's not. I don't know. I just found that a really interesting quote. And I'm not completely sure what to make. of it. You know what we're talking about? The quote and not how bad the team is. We're talking about him. And to do it in it, listen, the torts way, as someone who watched very closely him with the Rangers for years and got to see how he adjusted with Columbus. And there were so much like amazing coverage of him when he was in Columbus and, you know, learning more about him and how he's evolved.

He's kept one thing very consistent. He knows how to take the spotlight to take the pressure off. some of his guys, right? No one was talking about, well, some people were bringing up the Cam York thing, but it's not the biggest story. In Toronto, of all places, the biggest story of the night is what John Tortorella said. So, in a way, he did his job, the way he always intends to, and he knows when to take the narrative and when to take the pressure off the team. But, yeah, no, I really don't look at it, like, he's trying to quit on this team.

I think it's more just him saying, like, I don't think any coach wants to learn how to, like, coach through such hard times like this. And that's fair because if you're a coach and you're competitive and we all know he is, he wants to be coaching through a different strategy. Like you don't want it that you're going. You just have to play out the rest of the season. Just get past those next nine games. They're going to suck.

Go for it and be done. And I, you know, it's unfortunate. But I think it, I think like it's so easy when it comes out of his mouth to be like, all right, let's dissect it because he's one of the more interesting coaches in the league. And he's a guy, he's a smart guy who typically thinks through what he says. Yeah. And look, at the end of the day, he didn't say this. But if he had said, you know what, if we're going to lose year after year after year,

I'm not the right coach. I shouldn't be here. I'm a coach who gets teams across the finish line. I'm a coach who has a championship. I'm a coach who's won a lot in this league. I'm not the right guy, the right mentality to be finishing dead. last year after year as part of a rebuild. If he said that,

it would be shocking, but also, I'm not sure anyone would disagree with him. No, it's a little message, Danny Breyerer to say like, all right, let's,

I like to say sometimes, shoot or get off the point. Like, you've got a Hall of Fame coach, give him a roster worthy of them, or, you know, maybe we,

maybe we look at it moving on. But, yeah, you're absolutely right. Seven goals in a row, to a good team and a really bad team, and yet we're talking about John Tortorella, so maybe he's done his job.

Speaking of doing jobs, what have you got on your plate for the rest of the week or what's coming next from you? Let's throw some plugs out there, other than writing my playoff match for me. Listen, I'm a sucker for those kinds of stories. And it's, that one is so you. Like, it is so on brand for you.

Yeah, I got to think of a way, too complicated way to rank all of this. Like is there's got to be. You need a point system. There's got to be the spreadsheet. There's going to be a point system. You're going to learn some new new types of math. Yeah. Get an algorithm.

Just write an 800 page or 800 word intro that just loses everybody completely. And then they just scroll down to see where their team is and yell at me in the comments. That's the that's the Sean experience. Listen, it's a familiar one for me. I mean, half the time I write stuff, the comments are like, Dom, you're an idiot. And I'm like, I'm not Dom.

Oh, Dom, I can't believe you're using this model. Like, all right, it's not mine. I like it. It's not mine. What do I have this week? Today I wrote something on faces and new places and I looked at five big name players. So everyone's going to look at it and go, why didn't you pick this player? Because I picked five and narrowed it down.

And then Monday, Tuesday, one of the days, the 31st, the last day of the month, as per usual, is what we learned about the NHL in March, and I'm excited about that one. I think it's like the last one, technically of the season, because I'm not going to do it in April, but I'm sure I'll have similar things in the playoffs, but going to look at things like the Dallas Stars

and how they're doing without Hayskin and in, and the Washington Capitol's goalie rotation, I think is going to be a part of it and how they're preparing for the playoffs, and just other odds and ends. Sounds good, and yes, just to reinforce, if we write an article and we say, here are five, whatever,

anyone not on that list, that means we don't think that they qualify for that. If I say here's the five best goalies, that means I think there's only five good goalies in the league. And if I didn't list your guy, it's because he stinks and I personally am better than him. So remember that. It's important. Thank you very much, Shana, for filling in this week. And thank you to all of you for listening to The Athletic Hockey Show, Max, and Lazan will be on the next Athletic Hockey Show. Max and Laz will be on the next athletic hockey show.

That'll be on Monday. And we will be back next week on Wednesday. Frankie should be back. So tune in for that. And until then, thank you for listening. Talk you later.