The Athletic Hockey Show - Are we witnessing another Maple Leafs collapse?

Episode Date: April 30, 2025

With the first round of the Stanley Cup playoffs entering night 11, Sean, Frank and Sean wonder if the Maple Leafs will cough up another three game series lead? They discuss Marc-Andre Fleury having to relieve an ill Filip Gustavsson as the Wild lose to Vegas in overtime, the dominant Edmonton Oilers winning their third straight over the LA Kings, and Jacob Markstrom doing everything he could to stave off elimination, ultimately losing to the Canes in double OT. Plus Sean and Sean discuss the dysfunctional Canucks and what team Mike Sullivan should coach next? Host: Sean McIndoe and Sean GentilleWith: Frankie CorradoExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Jeff Domet Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. What up, what up? The Athletic Hockey Show Wednesday edition. Sean Jans and Tilly, Sean McEnacru, Frankie Corrado. We are here, boys, to discuss for, let's say, 59 minutes. 100 NHL players versus a gorilla. Who would you guys pick? Again, three segments.

That's all we're talking about today. Yeah, I'm taking the gorilla. I am taking the gorilla. I don't know why. I don't have a reasonable explanation other than, That dude is big, man. That's it. That's all I got for you.

I need to know which hundred players it is. Like I need more. Like, because if it's like a hundred Leafs, then no, I'm taking the gorilla. But if it's, if it's an angry Nathan McKinnon with Tom Wilson

crying behind them, then we might be, we might be on to something. You need to have a wave of enforcers. You need to have the George Peros of the world. Aaronack Black comes in with the flying four arm. Exactly. Exactly.

That's some striking ability later on. That elbow do some damage. And then just for good measure, you get Nico Mikala to apply the finishing, the finishing body check. When he's down on the boards with his head right there, Mikula comes in for the kill. We can pick basically anybody from the Battle of Florida series to come in and finish stuff off. I'm sure we're going to be talking about that later. But we need to start, guys. I take no joy in this.

I take some amount of joy in this. Are we witnessing the Leafs collapse? I've had the thought, I must say. I'm sure you guys haven't, though. I'm sure this hasn't crossed your mind at any point. No, it hadn't occurred to me. I guess I guess you're right. Yeah, we're halfway through it.

And it's, it's, there's, there's not a Leaf fan who didn't think about it after it was three nothing and, and half expected. So we'll see where it goes. I mean, it doesn't feel inevitable right now, but it doesn't feel good. And it was also like this is this is a bit more of a how than than a what because you lose game four in overtime. All right. I mean, not too many people were picking a sweep heading into the series. But like game five last night, that was the blueprint.

That is what this team always does. that. And, you know, we've, we've talked about how in the play, we talk about all the playoff Leafs, you almost can't do that. It's playoff Leafs games one through four where they're pretty good. And then there's the five through seven leaves where we get what we had last night. I mean, it was, it was the absolute prototypical late series game. So we'll see. I mean, they could come and blow Auto out of the water tomorrow. we all kind of laugh and go, I'd never end out,

but it's also possible that doesn't happen. This is the issue with, you know, like if you're a Leafs fan and you follow the Leafs and you care deeply and you're so invested in the team. If perhaps you play,

if perhaps you play it for the Toronto Maple Leafs, yes. Or you carry an alumni jacket, yes. These guys will have you thinking, man, maybe they shouldn't have gone off to a three nothing lead.

Like maybe that was the worst thing for them. And no fan base or players or whatever would ever utter those words except maybe like this is what they do to you. They have you thinking things that like are totally not true, but maybe it actually is true. Like maybe senators suckered them in. The senators had them right where they wanted. They got them to feel comfortable. They got a three nothing series lead. And now the playoff demons are going to poke their heads out and say,

guess what, we're back. Here, I got a, like a few things on this, okay? Mm-hmm. You always look at a playoff series and you say, there are certain storylines that are going to factor in or have a very good chance of factoring in. Linus Allmark, stealing a game, had not happened yet. And you were thinking, well, if the Sends are going to have any chance in this

series, and if you play enough games in the series, that is going to happen based on what we saw from Allmark, the season, streaky goaltender, hot and cold when he's hot, he's really hot, when he's cold, it's just okay. He's gotten better as the series has gone on. Well, he checked in in a big way and he's like, that's a steal. So Linus Allmark is now on the table and that's a significant development. Another development that continues to be front and center is a guy like Austin Matthews,

has multiple chances with the puck on his stick to bury it. And he doesn't do it. It's like it's over the net. or it's a missed opportunity. And this happens so many times in these series clinching games. And this is the best five-on-five goal score from the second he walked into the NHL. And for some reason in these games, can't put it away. And then think about this.

Like the Leafs were gift-wrapped an opportunity last night. Ridley Gregg takes an undisciplined penalty. The Sends are up one-nothing. And the Leafs power play, games one through three, was unbelievable. like winning them the series, the special teams battle, winning them the series, not only do they not score, they give up a short-handed goal, two games in a row, and now Ottawa takes a two-nothing lead in that game. And it's like, that's, man, this is like one of the uglier episodes

in many episodes of Leifes can't find a way to clinch a series. And now they're one in 13 in these games since 2018. Austin Matthews one goal in the series, which was a tap-in to an empty net on a fantastic feed from Mitch Marner. He's hit a bunch of posts. He's had, you know, he's been right around it. He was the guy who made the giveaway on the short-handed goal last night. It's just here we are again. And speaking of Marner, give me a number on the max-length contract in the subcontract in the

or how much money is on the line for Mitch Warner in the next 72 hours. It depends who's paying that contract. Okay. Because if it's Toronto, there will be significant swings. Yeah. If it's Detroit, I think that number is just, we need you. Like, that's the thing that with these guys. If it's like Detroit or Chicago or Utah or whatever, the number, the number is the number, I think.

We don't realize what these guys is like there's teams that are. dying to be what Toronto is. Every year it's a formality you get into the playoffs. And Toronto, they're in a different situation now where it's like these one or two or three games are going to define

what this group looks like for the foreseeable future. Yeah, in Toronto, in Toronto, you have a team that, like, you guys, they're upset that they're winning games. Maybe winning games is bad. Maybe that's where things went wrong for the Leafs in this series. I have I have quoted this stat a million times.

If you start watching hockey in 1964, you have seen this Leafs team win one seven game series in five games or less. They have won the Stanley Cup more often than they have won a short seven game series. And their whole thing is they never win the Stanley Cup. Stanley Cup. So it's happened exactly one time. And that was 24 years ago. So I mean, in theory, we shouldn't expect this to be to be easy.

But I don't know. I got to say I've had, and this happens to me every year, because everyone knows I'm a Leafs fan. I get people like reaching out when the collapse starts happening. And a lot of them are there to. Wellness checks. Yeah. A lot of them are doing.

it, you know, to make fun of me, which is, which is fine. That's part of, uh, that's, that's, that's part of the deal. But I get like the wellness checks and it, like, let me just answer that. I don't care anymore. I'm dead inside. Like, I'm not, this is year nine. Like, you think I'm still sitting in front of the TV like, this is the year. I really think it's different. Like, come on, and there's no. And, and I had somebody, even when it was three, nothing, I had somebody asked me. They said, like, if they blew it. I'm like, I'm like, If they blew a 3-0 lead, what would that be? And it's like, the analogy I use is it's like, it'd be like playing a video game and you're down to three hit points.

And then somebody drops like the nuclear bomb on you. And you're like, yeah, that was really bad, but also like a paper cut would have finished it off. So it doesn't, you know, it's kind of overkill. We didn't really need that. You're going to kill me twice. Like whatever. Yeah. So like all, all year long we've talked about with the leaves.

Yeah. Does it look different? Does it feel different? Does this team act different? And I will say that through four games, it honestly did look and feel different. Like they won two overtime games. They got like a Simone Benoit overtime winner. They got a Max Domi overtime winner. The power play was cooking.

Like even game four when they lost, they're down to nothing. They come back. They're down again. They come back. They force overtime. Like that game would have been one where in the past, It's like, eh, Leif's lost 4-2. What are you going to do?

I don't know. They'll shake it off. So up until then, it all did look and feel different to a degree. But game five had that like same old, same old written all over it. So I guess like the big question is, is it actually different or are we just fooling ourselves or did we catch a little bit of a, you know, a four game, I don't want to call it a heater, but like a four game, I don't know, sample size. where it just looked and feel different in the playoffs. It's not different. It's not different.

It's never different in games one through four for this team. We know they can be fine. They've had, you know, they blew out Tampa in one of those games. They had, you know, like you go down the list.

They've had some good games. It's not different until it's different, and it has to be different in the later stages. So, I mean, the good news. as if there was such a thing for this team is now you've got yet another chance to prove it right you've got another like okay austin here's your chance to have the austin matthews game and uh you know

put the team on your back here's your chance Mitch here's your chance to do what nathan mckinan does a couple of times a week in the playoffs what mcdavid and dry sidel here's your chance again number you know what 15 we're we're up to now and i want to say one thing like I think Travis Green and the Ottawa Senators, but Travis Green leads the way he's the coach. And I think sometimes there's only so much coaches can do. But I think he deserves a ton of credit for the adjustments that he's made. Like the one that is on the penalty kill. Like they've clearly made an adjustment because they were getting worked in front of the net with Nyes there.

And Tavares kind of being in that bumper spot, kind of, you know, closing in on the net. So they've made an adjustment there and that's worked well because now they're not losing the special teams battle and they're not, you know, getting smoke or blood like the series is still going. So that's made a difference. But you guys, the only had, the only had four high danger chances on the power play last, last night. Like, it's pretty like, all mark was fantastic. That's a, that's a, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, should make everybody nervous and, in, and, in, in, like, but it also is the, like, this is, you can just see the star players overthinking and over, like, and you really see that on the power play. Like, like, what used to be

kind of a natural just like bang, bang, bang, and it was in the net. Now suddenly, every time they've got the puck on the stick, you almost can see like, you know, all the different thoughts and calculations going through and they're a little bit late or they're doing a little bit too much. Yeah. And it's, of course, it's in their head. Like, we're going to see all these quotes in the next 48 hours about how, no, it's not in our head.

We don't think about that stuff. They clearly do. Yeah. It is very, very much in their head until they take it out or it takes them out. And then just real quickly, on the other, like on the Ottawa side of things, Travis Green, the other thing, like after the game four win, I don't know if you guys saw that clip in the dressing room after, but I love that message that he delivered to that group. It was the perfect message, the perfect delivery, just telling the guys like mentally, like check out for a bit. We don't need to, like paraphrasing, of course, but we don't need to carry the weight of this, you know, into the next game. And sure enough, his team showed up.

And they played well from the goaltender on out. Like they, you know, they had, that was their best game of the series, for sure. And so like that was, that was the right messaging from the coach at the right time. So he deserves a lot of credit. We actually did have somebody close out a series last night, believe it or not. This is the Carolina Hurricanes taking care of business with New Jersey. I think the story of that game for me is that the hurricane survived getting, goal lead. How many times have we seen it from them over the years where it's like,

uh, rent like ran as someone who was hot finishing left us at the wrong time, blah, blah. I think in, in years past Carolina loses that game because of how well Jacob Marks from played. He did almost almost, he was so good in that first overtime. But yeah, ends up, one ends up getting through and, and, uh, Carolina, Carolina advances. 14 shots to three for Carolina in that first. first overtime. Like Jacob Markstrom was unbelievable. And this is like I think a lot of us saw this coming with this series. Like the New Jersey Devils were not at full capacity. They were going again, going, going up against a really tough opponent in Carolina who is, you know, best team at limiting

shots and chances. Best team at creating shots and chances. Like that's a tough combination, um, to have to go through. But I did feel for Jacob Markstrom because I, like I played with him. I know him. He runs hot. And you saw him after the overtime winner went in. Like he's just looking to snap that stick somewhere or throw it somewhere. He would have poured out a lot of, you know, blood, sweat and tears and effort into this thing. Because he's the kind of guy where he would look at that and say, oh, you think we can't win?

And you don't think I can play good enough to make this team win and put this team on my shoulders. Well, you watch me. And Markstrom, like his numbers would indicate, he is the best. goalie in the playoffs right now. But unfortunately, New Jersey is not going to be going on any further. And that's, you know, that's a byproduct of who they had available to them and who they ran into. But full credit to Markstrom for the series that he had, it would have been over sooner if it

wasn't for him. It was a fascinating overtime to watch, especially the first overtime. Not necessarily like the best overtime to watch or the most entertaining, but just one team completely flatlined. and just trying to survive. And the other team just coming at them in waves. And you're just sitting there watching it. It was almost like you were watching the Devils defend a one goal lead in that they were just sitting back going like just run out the clock.

And you just felt like they were waiting for some fluky thing to happen, which almost did at the very end of that first overtime. That sequence around the Hurricanes net was unbelievable. they almost almost got almost did steal one but I mean this was the right result we've talked about it

the devil's minus Jack Hughes it's it's tough I don't think you hold this against them but I do have like a Carolina kind of anecdote we always talk about them

in the past where they get to a certain point in the playoffs and you know offense dries up and they just they have a hard time there right so you look back

at this series and Carolina scores four. They score three. They score two. They score five and five. And they do all of that against the goalie, who statistically is the best guy in the playoffs thus far. So if you're Carolina and you're looking at like,

you know, do the Toronto test. Does it look and feel different? I think in Carolina, you look at the results and you're like, that's 10 goals over two games. That looks and feels a little bit different as opposed to, you know, kind of scratching and clawing for offense in the past against the guy who's as dialed in as any goalie.

Yeah. Now, the one difference would be for, we talked about with the Leafs, it's like early series Leafs, late season, late series Leafs. With Carolina, they always win the first round. And then do they leave you wanting a little bit more from there is kind of the question. They're going to get a tougher challenge in round two, whoever comes out of that series. but I mean do we just plant the flag and say Carolina's the favorite right now certainly in the metro

if not in the east or do we are we not giving enough respect to this? I'm sorry man those Florida Panthers they are not messing around there's no like there's no hey we played a lot of hockey yeah we're banged up they I mean I hate using this term sometimes but they play for keeps and they are not messing around.

How many shot attempts do you think the Corsi Cains had last night overall? This is a Star-like number. They had 54 shots, right? So I'm going to say they had, yes. So they had 98 shot attempts. Low. Wow. No.

Yeah. At 113 shot attempts and whatever it was, 60, or, I can't do math, 84 minutes of hockey. That's wild. Good, gracious. Do we want to, you know what, let's take a break. We'll come back and we'll do it. We'll talk about some Western Conference stuff.

We'll probably get into the, get into the Florida question too, because that's, can't talk about the playoffs without the, without talking about the Battle of Florida. Come on. Dick Rick, we're right back. All right, we're back. Fellas, how do you feel about cursing Mark Andre Fleury? weeks ago whenever he came in for his little overtime finisher in the regular season gets a nice send off in front of wild fans all that i wasn't on that show i have nothing to do with that

are you serious was it was it i don't know i actually i actually don't know but i'm just i'm getting ahead of it now i'm not letting you drag me into any kind of mark andre flurry no no no no i said at the time i think I'm going to do a ranking of Mark Andre Fleury final games. I'm going to do a top 20. And yeah, last night's is going to rank pretty high, I think. If we were back, if we were back in the slideshow days, if this were 2011, when we all, when me and Sean were working for places that made us, that made us do slideshows, it would be a solid, solid 19 item list.

Scroll, scroll, scroll, yeah, this is, I would say, I would put last night is probably number 12 out of 14 Flurry Final games for sure. Yeah, it wasn't great. I'll tell you what, I got a text last night from a guy who's an assistant coach in the NHL and we're in a little group chat. And he texts me, he said, guys, Bruce Cassidy is dialed in. And I guess when you get credit like that from other coaches, you're obviously doing things from like a tactical point of view that they're noticing because I've really

I realize, like, hockey analysts, we watch games a certain way. Like, we need to talk about the storylines. We need to analyze the breakdowns that happen and kind of assign, you know, the fault or the blame and who's playing well. The coaches who watch hockey, they watch it from such like a different lens where they're almost not even really watching, like, the name bars and the numbers. It's like they're watching how everyone kind of coexists on the ice. and the certain trigger points to do this system or this schematically. And to get that text, I was like, well, he must be seeing something from Vegas where he's got these guys, you know, really, really playing together in a way that I guess a coach would

appreciate. When did you get that text? Like, was it after the game? No, it was during the game. I want to say that it was, I want to say that it was in the third. at one point. I would have got that text, which is interesting,

right? Because there was breakdowns like Boldie gets in alone. He scores, like there's always going to be breakdowns. But, um, yeah,

that's, I mean, that was a pretty, that was a pretty, you hate to say, it's an overtime game, right? But that was a,

that felt like a pretty dominant game by Vegas. And it felt like a game where Gustafson was bailing out the wild for the most part. And then obviously he gets sick. He, exits, flurry comes in, it has, like, gives up a goal on a, on a no chance save in OT. So that, that wasn't his fault, at least if we're, if we're, you know, focusing on the flurry of it all. But yeah, three, two, three, two win for Vegas.

They're up three, two in a series. And I got to do my favorite thing this morning. Read glowing profiles of video coaches who single-handedly decide a playoff game. Oh, isn't that great? We had an offside by a fraction of an inch that nobody saw that had no effect on the play. That ends up deciding the game because Minnesota scores with a minute left and gets it taken off the board, which is the rule. I mean, you can't complain about it. But what a stupid rule.

What a stupid league we've got now where we're doing profiles of the video. Give me a moment by moment. When did you realize as you sat in your little office that you were going to single-handedly decide an NHL playoff game and maybe a playoff series. This is so great. Like Frankie, can't you, can't you get in on that racket? Come on man. I should.

You need to get on the video coach business. I got a, if I ever hire an assistant, that's exactly. Like, that's where the assistance focus will go for sure. I volunteer. But, you know, this, this Minnesota team, they're, I give them a lot of credit. They're not going away quietly. And that first line, like, it's, it's almost a shame that, like, if they, lose this series. We're not going to get to see that first line play together anymore.

Because that's exciting, man. With Caprisov, Boldie, and Eric Sinek, they have been a handful. They've been tough to stop. They make plays. They're able to kind of create some separation. They're big bodies. That's, you know, that's really keeping Minnesota going as much as, you know, good goaltending is. But Vegas is a well-built team. Like they, Vegas is a team that is able to withstand a one line, you know, dominant force because of how deep they are and how, you know, robust their back end is. And, you know, that's, that's Minnesota's big push right now. That's a testament to how good Caprizov and Boldy have been is not just that they're doing it. Like, it would be impressive if they were doing this against any team or if they had done this

against any team. The fact that it's Vegas, I feel like it, you know, you give them, you give them some brownie points there because that is still, after all these years, that's still the Vegas thing. It's that it's it's it's the it's the depth that they have and certainly the depth that they have done the middle. So the fact that yeah, the fact that minnie's managing to do this is, is still still impressive to me. Like I don't know. Like that sounds condescending almost like because it's like oh yeah like, you know, all right. You guys had you guys had your fun now it's time for the legit contender to step up and in handle business. But on some it's on some degree, that's kind of what it feels like after last night. It feels like that too because there's always that like

Minnesota can't spend money thing. And they will be able to finally, but there's only so much you can do, right? So you are at a deficit that not all the other teams are at, and your roster reflects that. And when it comes to depth, like that's generally where you're going to lose that battle, even though you have some top line guys

that are really, really cooking and playing high-level hockey. The other game last night, Edmonton 3, L.A.1, kings are on the brink, man. It's a Métis Yannmark scored, scored to break a tie in the third period. That's never, that's never. He's a, he's a useful player. But whenever Mattius Yannmark's knocking in goals, I feel like, I feel like you're playing with fire there. Dude, here's the most demoralizing thing about that if you're L.A.

Not only did you lose again, you lost on home ice where you don't particularly lose. and you lost the Yanmark of Vanderkane game. You didn't lose to McDavid and Drysidal going off, going nuts. So like that's a it's a triple doink really for the LA Kings.

And I think I think this series is over now. Going back to Edmonton, this is like, this, I think this is it. You had the series in the palm of your hands. You couldn't play well in third, periods.

You've found ways to lose games that you shouldn't have lost. You had a bad coaches challenge. And then this is your thing. Like you go back on home ice. You're supposed to win that game and you're supposed to feel confident about it. And you weren't even in the building. Like not even close. Like that,

that score is. It's not indicative of how that game was played last night. And Darcy Kemper was the only reason why the score was the score. But the Edmonton Oilers have gotten better as the series has gone on. and the LA Kings look like they are running out of gas and they have gotten worse and I think it's over going back to Edmonton. And we, I mean, we hear the cliche all the time this time of year. The whole, well, you know, until you lose a game at home.

But it never felt more true than this series with just the huge gap in the home and away records for L.A. the fact that they had home ice for the first time against these Oilers in this four-part, ongoing annual series, you were just looking at it going, just win all the home games. It's that simple. Win all the home games, get in, get out, and you're set. And even when they lost the two in Edmonton, you're still saying, hey, two out of three, you've got home ice, you don't lose on home ice.

And now you've lost on home ice. Where, and we're getting ahead of ourselves here. but where does that Jim Hiller challenge rank as far as all time series turning points? Wow, I wonder if there's an article coming on that. I feel like maybe there might be. Is that to me? If they lose this series in six, can hide? Like, is that challenge?

A firing offense? Well, that's, yeah. Maybe it wouldn't feel fair, but I mean, like, you know, are, Our buddy, Pete Blackburn, had a tweet last night where he was like, what do you even do if you're L.A. at this point? Like, you can't beat the oil. If you can't beat the Oilers. If you can't beat them this year.

If Mete's, if Mette's Yanmark can give in what's left of a Vander Kaine or scoring goals on you at home to like swing the balance of the series, I don't know what you do. If you can't beat the oil, like you're L.A. and you can't beat the Oilers this year with no Ekholm. and goal-tending position in flux and like just outside of McDavid and Drysidal the team has not had a good year and there's there's areas to be exposed

if you can't do it this year then I don't know when you can and think about how dire things were last night for L.A. They had Adrian Kempai who we can make the argument as their best forward. He was playing a regular shift on defense

in the third period. Like he was playing with Drew Douty. He was out. out there for face-offs five-on-five, like playing a regular shift. That is, that is, it, okay, it's not crazy stuff because, like, we've seen, you know, we've seen this kind of been, it's been tinkered with in the past, but it just kind of reeked a little bit of desperation. Desperation.

The same kind of desperation that you had when you made that coach's challenge that was, was nowhere close to it. And, you know, coming off the previous game, so not game five, game four. where you also didn't play anyone. You played four defensemen 30 minutes. You played basically six forwards or whatever. You really invested everything into that one game and you didn't get it done. And now I think, you know, the question of does momentum carry from game to game in a series?

Well, in this series, it feels like it does. Maybe not every series. Maybe not most series. But this might be the outlier where certain things have happened, whether it's the ice time deployment or the coaches challenge or the overtime, you know, overtime situations. And there you go. Like the momentum has carried in this series.

Is this, this feels like this is, I didn't say that flippantly either about, about, about Hiller, but also also Rob Blake. Like at some point, you just,

you just look at the roster and you look, you look at the way things are going and you say like, this is we've, we've dead ended here. Like some, We need a truly different approach because we just can't, we can't, we can't, we can't beat these guys. I would, I would caution a little bit with that just because the regular season, they were such a great story. And if they didn't, like, if they didn't do these things that have been detrimental in the playoffs,

maybe we're talking about a different outcome here. But, like, bringing in Darcy Kemper, that was a great move. Bringing in a guy like Warren Fogle worked for them. I mean, there's examples of things that haven't worked. But yeah, like, I don't know. Just think if like sequencing, if like sequencing in this series were different too, I think maybe we approach it. Like if they just, if they lose a garden variety seven game series to Edmonton, I feel like, you know, maybe things are a little bit different. The two, the two elite is just, that's, that's cruel.

How much is L.A. pounding the table at the GM meetings are rare? it is about changing the playoff format. Get us out of this first round matchup against the team we can't beat four years ago. Where are you? I mean,

where are you guys on that? And L.A. was a great story. But you're looking at the standings going, they're going to play Edmonton again. I like the one through eight for a couple of reasons. First of all, like I feel like it's a better indicator of if you had success,

you get rewarded more when it comes to your playoff standing. But I think also, you know, Marty B. Ron brought this point up to me a little while back. So I have to give him credit for it. Like with the divisional matchups, you know, one, two, three, those can be set in stone for quite a while. But if it's one through eight, now all of a sudden, what if you're the fifth team and you're jockeying for position with the fourth team for home ice? Like all of a sudden, that opens up, you know, more intriguing games down the stretch in the regular season where even if you're six, you might have a chance at four. And so you're playing with a little more desperation, maybe a little more urgency,

makes those games where we talk about it's like everyone's kind of just checked out waiting for the playoffs. It makes those games more spicy. So I think there's a number of reasons why I'd prefer the one through eight. What we saw early on in the divisional pod kind of model is at the time it felt like it was a way to get Sidney Crosby and Oxoveskin playing each other in the playoffs every year. That's what it felt like when it happened. It's obviously off the table now since the penguins stink.

But what's taken over there, and like I think part of the reason to keep it, and part of what's become proof of concept for, you know, for this, for the, the pod model, is that it really, it creates, it creates rivalries. It does. We're talking about Oilers Kings. Like, that's, that's compelling. But most of all, the number one, like, top of the list is, is Florida, is Florida, Tampa. There is that.

Do we have? That rivalry didn't get created by the format is the difference. And like I got juiced up, man. I did get juice. I actually like the division format for years because I'm old. I grew up in the old 80s where it was the same matchups over and over again. The Norris Division guys, you know, you had the smith where it was you were waiting for Edmonton, Calgary. And I've come around and conceded that rivalries today are just not.

you're never going to have it like it was back then. You know, the bad blood, all of that stuff just doesn't happen as much. But you're right. Maybe Florida's disperven that because, man, those two teams, that series is nasty. It's like it's appointment viewing. And that is a legit bloodbath. There's a, there's a crazy hit or something crazy that happens every single game in that series. It's nuts.

What's your favorite? What are our favorite crazy hits from this? You each have to pick one. I can't say that I have a number one dirty hit. I can't say that I have a favorite dirty hit, like a violent hit where someone's head is getting targeted. I'll tell you what, though, the Aaron Eklad forearm shiver,

I didn't think it was a two gamer, but I kind of think that if he got the five in a game and he served the punishment within the game, maybe you tack on one after that. But the fact that it went unpunished, they felt like, and this is just me, my kind of read on the Department of Player Safety, they felt like they had to give the extra game. But I'll tell you what, that Nico Mikola, that is as greasy as it gets.

That Gergensons is down, his head is against the board, and my man, you took a running start to, like, drill the guy's head into the boards, and that's just a fine. There's no play there at all to do anything other than this guy's vulnerable. I'm going to take a run. You don't even need to make the run. You don't even need to do it. And, okay, I'm going to ask you guys this. Throw on your tin foil hats for me.

Okay. They're rarely far away for either of us. Do you think that there's a little bit of managing the series involved there where it's like Florida can't have two defensemen, two regulars gone? Yeah. Absolutely. It's, you know, there's game management from the reps.

There is series management. Now, I'll go further. I think Ekblad gets the two games, partly because he didn't get the major, and you're right, that that is something the Department of Player Safety seems to look at, but also partly because Kachuk didn't get suspended. So it's like, we gave you guys half a freebie. Like the Kachuk hit was a half game suspension. So we rounded it down.

Now we're bouncing it back up on, on Eklai, because we can't, you know, we're going to go a little harsher on you. Yeah. And I saw, like, I, like the, did you see the reverse camera angle? we didn't get to see it on the broadcast, but it was floating around online yesterday. Can I ask how, how is it that we have angles that we don't see on the broadcast? That's a great question. Why are we filming stuff that we're not giving to the broadcast?

That's above my pay grade, buddy. I throw the headset on. Frank. Frank. That's what we got. Like, is it just like miscellaneous freelance cameraman just like lurking around up in the rafters, just take it and film that from the initial camera. camera angle, you're like, okay, it's an elbow.

It's a forearm shiver. It's not great. Like, it's actually not good. Um, but then you watch the reverse angle and you see that elbow like flared out right into the face of Hagel. Like, yeah. Okay. I, I, I get it now. But, you know, two games is still, two games is significant in the playoffs, right?

Because that's two playoff games. So is that saying in the regular season, that's four games, regular season time? And the game five and six is more than a game two and three. Again, you can say it shouldn't be, but that is how they, that's how they look at it. And Samva saying, yeah, thanks, thanks a lot. Would it would have been nice if he got kicked out of that game before he scored the, the, the, oh my God, he was, he was a menace. And, okay, so one other thing on that, like, Hegel has the hit on Barkoff.

And listen, Barcoff's a big deal. It's a big deal. It's captain of the team, one of the best players. I would imagine Eckblad sees Hagel there and he's like normally I would hit this guy like normally I would just run give him a shoulder I think he saw it was

Hagel and he's like I haven't forgotten what you did to my captain and even though you got suspended the one game like I'm going to give you a little extra and his wires crossed and he saw red and now he's got to live with that but yeah this is this has been a crazy series

and my other takeaway from outside of all the craziness Panthers are for real. The Panthers defend well. Like they play hard. And they're not even really get, like their big guys are not even cooking yet, really. And the third line just got on the board. Like Paul Marisse had kind of talked about he needs more out of those guys.

Like that third line kind of embodies what the Panthers are all about. Responsible, defensive hockey, hard to play against, get you some offense when you need it. But if Reinhardt gets cooking, if Barkhov gets cooking, different store, like, and they're already up 3-1. I don't know. That's a dangerous team. We've commented on how many of us at the athletic, especially on the podcast side. And I'm saying us, it's you guys, because I wasn't one of them. Everybody was picking Tampa.

Is this, I got suckered into that. I feel like a fool. Is this series telling us anything about Tampa, or is this just telling us we were sleeping on Florida, man? We bought the regular season and we didn't factor in that playoff Florida was showing up. I think it's telling us what the lightning at times told us over the course of this season, which is they're just their top heavy. And if they, in the, in the middle, whatever, outside of their top five forwards, they don't have, they don't have a ton of people that are capable of scoring goals and producing offense.

And so when those guys go cold and when you have Nikita Kutrov is a sublime hockey player, right? Like whatever, Leeds Ligin points again and all that stuff. This isn't meant to slack him, but he's not having his bet. He hasn't scored a playoff goal in years at this point, literally. So whenever you have stuff like that going on, you need that next layer of player that's capable of chipping in and they don't have it. And they've been and they show that at points throughout throughout the season. They go out and they try to fix it at the deadline. that's and it's kind of like,

yeah, like it didn't, it didn't really work out. So I think they're, the way they're losing this series is the way it felt like they would eventually lose. But I think we all, there are a lot of us,

me included, talked ourselves into it, maybe a little bit more aggressively than we should have. I definitely talked myself into it and like, overthought myself into it because like Florida had not played well and they were banged up. Meanwhile, Florida's shown up.

And, like, if you had to do Florida versus on any team in the Eastern Conference right now, like you're taking Florida based on what we've seen so far in these playoffs. And another thing that has to factor in for Tampa Bay is the goaltender. And unbelievable year for him, right? Like, you know, Vesna nominee, that's all great. But you go back to the years where Tampa went to the finals, three years in a row.

Vasilevsky was 927, 937, and 922. And now the last three years, he's 875, 897, and 884. And it's like the two have to co-relate together. Tampa Bay Lightning going far in the playoffs and Andre Vasilevsky above a 920 save percentage. When Vasilevsky isn't superhuman, the team can only go so far. And he's, you know, Florida has gotten to him. There's been some moments where he hasn't quite looked like, you know, superhuman Vasilevsky.

And this is what you get. Like this is, you know, the Tampa lightning are on the brink now. But the, the Panthers are just, they're good, man. They do everything the right way and they will wear you down. And I think they're even just scratching the surface this year in the playoffs as far as how good they can be based on, you know, where their big boys are at offensively. That's a Vasilevsky, man.

He's 883, say a percentage. he's underwater when it comes a goal saved above expected that's dude you said it like that more than anything was the reason I picked Tampa was I was like okay that dude's back he's he's in 2020 mode that's that's the deal breaker for me and he's been he's been bad period do you guys have any questions for me about

about Caps Canadians since I am the resident expert on that series I say actually Alexandria Virginia I had a different question for you, not related to that series. Because listen, that series has been awesome. They're both, the Canadians fans that I kind of see online, they are not happy with the officiating. Tom Wilson is a feminist.

Like, they are not happy with the officiating in that series. And listen, I think there's a lot of fans. Like, I kind of see it around the league. There's a lot of fans that aren't happy with officiating. Officiating is not the main story, though, for me. Like there's not. You have, like, as a team, you have to be able to stay composed. and in the moment and not ride the wave of too high and too low.

And, you know, I think for Montreal, yes, they're playing with house money. They also just have this thing about them where they're just never going to go away quietly. But it'll be taught. Like they got to find a way to steal one on the road if they can keep this thing going. You know who else is really unhappy with the officiating in that series? Not just abs fans. The abs.

They are mad. They are big, they are big mad about the way things are about the way things are going there and it's it's you you see you see some of the reaction and you hear about some of the reaction behind closed doors and you're like i think maybe i think maybe your focus is not in the correct place here you should probably try to win some hockey games and stop and stop worrying about you can't get caught up in it or whatever i think they are you see you see some teams and coaches that that are really you know that from the team's point of view,

the teams that are really experienced come playoff time, they kind of just, hey, we're not cheering too much. We're not getting too, um, you know, we're just not showing much emotion.

We're, we're keeping our body. Poker face type. And listen, sometimes it gets the most of you. But as a team, if you're, if you're up and down,

like, you know, you see from the bench, sometimes Slavkovsky's yelling at the ref. Like there's a lot of emotion involved. And I get it. Like this team is new here. Um,

they, they earn their way here. the hard way you don't get there the hard way the way the way the Montreal Canadians did without playing with this fire and passion and emotion but they do have to find a way to just stay in the moment because it can slip away really quickly and it felt like that happened for them last game at the Bell Center yeah that's oh god it's such a cliche and this is basically what I wrote after that game but what what Tom

Wilson did in game four man that's his that's his consequential of a hit as you're ever going to see, as you're ever going to see. And I get that they're mad about it. It was very similar to a, to a hit that he had on Zach Aston-Ree's years ago that caught him suspended in the playoffs in one of those Penguins Caps series. We talked about it.

I get to some extent the anger there, because, you know, if you want to look at it as borderline, you know, whatever. No, no, I, I, I saw someone saying, like, the principal point of contact, like the principle has been removed from the language of the rule many, many years ago. Yes. It's not what it is anymore.

It's the term that they use is, I believe, is main contact point or something like that. And so if the hit from Wilson is directly through the player's body, but the head gets hit, that is illegal by the rule book. Like not all head contact is illegal. But if you make a hit. and you're not getting through the body and you pick the head, that is a dirty hit. But guys, we saw the head. He didn't pick the head.

I didn't pick it. I'm not a big Tom Wilson fan. No. But that's a clean enough hit in the playoffs. And this is one of those things that it gets on my nerves when we're having these arguments a lot of times with fans of, you know, especially the team it goes against. you see it with goal interference. People start arguing about what they want the rule to be.

Well, you shouldn't be able to hit a guy like that. Fine. Well, you can't. You can. You can. You're allowed. We can have that conversation in the off season when it's time to come up with new rules.

But for now, under the rules, the way they're, that, that's a hit. Does Tom Wilson and Josh Anderson just have to fight like off the face off? Like, can we just get this over with sort of deal? Or are we just, are we going to Ross and Rachel? It's going to happen. Here's the other. Here's the other. here's the other really funny thing.

This has been like an undercurrent for for this one. Those guys know each other. They played against each other growing up. Okay. Documented. Tom Wilson asked, asked directly, like,

do you remember playing against, do you remember playing against, what was Josh Anderson like when you guys, when you guys are younger? He was like, ah, it's a long time ago. I don't really remember.

Like, it's true. Like, and that is deliberate on, on his part, 100%. So that mindset, I think, I think Josh Anderson would really, really, really love the fight Tom Wilson.

He tried to, he tried to immediately after the hit, took himself out of the play, led directly to that next goal, by the way. I don't, I don't think we see it. I think Josh Anderson wants it. I don't think Tom Wilson is going to give it to him. Yeah. Yeah, I think the only way it'll happen maybe is if the game, like Wilson will do it on his own terms. That's the thing about some of these fighters, like, and I've heard that on the ice. Like, I'll fight you, like, whatever.

want to or on my own terms or I'm not fighting on your terms and like you hear that all the time. Listen, at some point or I don't even know if any point that both fighters are going to be on the same terms when they make a fight. Like one guy's going to want to really. One guy's not going to want to. Like eventually you just do it or you don't. But I don't know if we're ever going to get to the point where both guys will be on their terms. That's why I'm saying opening face off.

Just get it out of the, you know, before. Because as soon as one team's up and the other team's got the momentum and it's suddenly. like, no, I can't. And, yeah. I think, and just more generally with Wilson, I think this is like the velociraptor learned how to open doors. Right. Like, like, he has,

he has evolved to a degree that makes him even more dangerous. And in an even better player. His gift game is so strong right now that the crying face is outrageous. It is outrageous. You could tell he maybe kind of wanted that one back. He didn't give a shit about the hit. Dude, at one point, Gentilly,

Gentile's gonna, like, he's in a group chat with his buddies for sure. And he's going to be pestering and badgering one of his buddies to, like, come out for a night and hang out. And buddy's going to be like, I can't do it.

I'm tired. And Gentilly's sending the Tom Wilson crying gift. Like, oh, I don't want to go out. Like he's, I'm going to be in Toronto real soon. And if you,

my friend, think you're not going to get that Jeff sent your way. You are, you are sadly. mistaken. All right, Frankie's got to go. What are you doing this week, buddy? You got, you got TV stuff happening? All sports center, man. Yeah, sports center every day. We're all over it. Jets,

everything. We're on it every night. All right. Enjoy next week, brother. All right, see you, boys. All right, Frank's gone. Just me and Sean. Buddy, what have I think we both learned things about the Vancouver Canucks over the last couple days, eh? What have we learned, Sean? all did. I mean, first of all, the main thing that I learned is, I think just in that last

segment, very subtly, I learned that you're one of the people who pronounces it Jif instead of GIF. So we've got some issues. This may be the last time you hear this, this pairing on a podcast, but we'll deal with it off. I defer, I defer to the creator of the medium on that one. He says, he doesn't know what he's supposed to be. I know. We've, we've talked about this The other thing I learned is that Quinn Hughes doesn't call people back when he's golfing, which is my main takeaway of many, many, many that came out of Vancouver yesterday specifically. So Rick Tocket not coming back is the big news. But do we know yet?

Has Quinn Hughes called Jim Rutherford back? Did we get an update on that? Because that was the fascinating tidbit. It was somebody asked at the press conference, have you talked to Quinn Hughes about this? And Rutherford says, well, I hope he's golfing because I called him or I texted him or whatever it was. And he didn't, he usually gets back to me and he hasn't got back to me for hours. Is Jack's shoulder good? Is Jack's shoulder good?

Can we? Yeah, apparently he's, yeah, he's the recovery. Can Jack golf? Can Jack golf yet? Oh, my goodness. Like, what are we doing? And I, what a mess. What a mess in Vancouver.

Boy, I would love to know what's, what's going on behind the scenes. I think it's pretty clear that Rick Tockett just didn't really want to be there. A hundred. That's exactly what I was going to say. I mean, that's. You can't, you can't blame the, you can blame the Canucks for maybe not creating a situation where a very good coach wanted to stick around, et cetera, et cetera. But this, this wasn't a money thing. This wasn't, you know, that they, they tried to go cheap on an offer.

I think he, I mean, do we just put him in Philadelphia right now? Yeah, I just 100%. Like, like, when was last, can you remember this happening offhand, something like that? Where it's like, there's a coach who an org's like, we'll give me as much money as you want. We want you back. And he goes, uh, nope, nope, see you later. Not not really. I mean, they're, and not under these circumstances too.

were like, I mean, it was, it was weird when they had the option on him. Remember, they had another, they could have just said, you're coaching us next year. You have a contract. And they were just like, well, we're going to take it out. That's a very Jim. That's a very Jim Rutherford approach to that too. Where he's like, he's like, if you don't want to, if you don't want to coach here, like, oh, whatever.

I'm not going to, I'm not going to twist your arm. Yeah. So now Rutherford's got to figure out a new coach. Are there any former penguin coaches suddenly available that, uh, You could try to bring us to... That's the million. That's like the $8 million a year question, possibly. The $8 million a year for five-year question for Mike Sullivan.

That leads me directly into what I've learned, what I think I've learned. I think that Mike Sullivan should take the Blackhawks job. Interesting. I do. I'll co- because you know you have tons of runway if you're him. Has a coach ever had more? I shouldn't say that. That's probably not true.

Very few coaches in recent history have had the degree of leverage that this guy has right now. He is a free agent with a bunch of jobs that are open, a bunch of jobs that could yet open to it, depending on the results of the first round of the playoffs. So he's going to have his pick. But if we're limiting it to the jobs that are currently open, I kind of think I like Chicago because you know you're going to have a lot of. a runway. You know they'll pay you whatever. They have all that cap space. They got Conor Bedard. They got a bunch of money to spend. And you wouldn't be working for James Dolan. That's it. That's the deal. That's the deal breaker for me. Or Chris jury or whoever replaces Chris Drury in two months when James Dolan has a bad gig with his

band and decides to take it out on the roof of front office. If his opening, if the opening slot for the Eagles doesn't go quite the way JD and the sure shot wanted it to go. You know, you don't have to worry about it. The facial recognition software that he runs on the Rangers bench doesn't come back with enough good players. I will tell you right now, it is

going to be fascinating to see the reaction in New York if they don't get Mike Sullivan. Because this was locked in in the minds of a lot of people, including last week, when they sent around the odds of like who's going to be the next coach of these teams, they had Mike Sullivan, they being, you know, people who make the out of bookmakers, had Mike Sullivan as the favorite for the Rangers job,

even as he was still employed by the Penguins. This is before the Penguins and Mike Sullivan agreed to part ways. He was already the betting odds favorite for the Rangers job. And it's going to be viewed as he was there and they blew it. in a very volatile market already where they are right like i mean that there's not a huge amount of confidence in that front office already they have to get this done i ultimately men mike solvin can pick his bosses and if you and if you are picking james dolan and christ juries and i know the money's green and he's going to be in whatever he's going to he's going to get a

guaranteed contract so that's like less of a that's less of a problem you know if the rangers if the Rangers go, you know, batty and fire him in two seasons, then he's going to get paid anyway, so who cares. But I don't want to subject myself to that, man. I don't want to, I don't want to be an employee of, of Madison Square Garden. Just, just the fact. So, so whether it's Chicago, whether it's Vancouver, Boston's going to be in the mix. Do you want to, do you want to go coach your son-in-law or don't you? I think is kind of an interesting question from Mike Sullivan and a very, a very, very strange one. Whatever. If I'm him, I'm like, the Rangers would have to, it would have to be five years and $10 million a year or something like that.

The money would have to be overwhelming for me to willingly sign up to put myself in that situation when you have, when any job that it, there's 10 jobs that aren't open right now that Mike Sullivan could have if he, if he, if he wanted them. So I don't know why you pick that one because that situation is a mess. The roster's in decline. You know, Adam Fox, Igor Shostirkin, you know, great, but pass. Can I throw a team at you that Mike Sullivan might be a nice fit for? L.A. Kings in a few days. That's right. Jim Rutherford said Mike Sullivan didn't want to go out west.

Maybe that's true. Maybe that was a polite thing to say to your buddy who's... Got a little train wreck of a franchise happening right now. That is an umbrella statement. Vancouver, certainly in the West. I don't know. All right, that does it for us. How's the newsletter going on?

Let's talk about that real quick. Fun. Yeah, we're having a lot of fun with it. I'm handling the Monday morning edition. So, yeah, sign up. It's the red light newsletter. Go find it on the, athletic, or it's pinned in my socials.

And, yeah, have a look. And if you like it, let me know. And then forward it to all your friends. Like literally, just the whole ad- If you don't. People love that. And if you don't like it, keep it yourself.

Yeah. If you don't like it, you can just say, hmm, I didn't like that thing. And then move on with your day. Move on with your life. Go do something else. It's possible. Theoretically, I've heard. You could do that.

Thank you folks for listening. And the three of us are back next Wednesday. Tomorrow is Granger and Lazarus. Enjoy that. Enjoy the games. Talk to real soon.