The Athletic Hockey Show - Are you buying or selling on the NHL's 'middle class'?

Episode Date: August 7, 2024

Hailey Salvian and Sean Gentille dissect the NHL's mushy middle, eight non playoff teams who have aspirations to vault into the top 16 of the league this upcoming season. Did these teams, including New Jersey, Pittsburgh, Calgary, Detroit, Buffalo, Philadelphia, Minnesota and St. Louis do enough to improve? Are Hailey and Sean buying or selling on these teams for 2024/2025?Hosts: Hailey Salvian and Sean GentilleExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Jeff Domet Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. What is up, everybody? It's another summer edition of the athletic hockey show. This time it is Haley and Sean. And this is my first show since June, I think. I took a lengthy hiatus. You're welcome to everybody who listens. I'm sure it was really lovely.

But we're back today and we're going to do just a more general show topic today, Sean. Buying or selling NHL off seasons. You haven't even specified which Sean it is. I could have launched into my Mac and do an impression, which I've been workshopping for years. It's almost ready for public consumption. I was going to say, that was your moment. You don't want to take it. That's basically Craig.

It's basically Canadian, my Canadian cousin's impression. Not very good. Jesus. Yeah, I think I always get caught up on the intro, which is just a really bad sign as a podcast host. time I have to say Haley, I always just want to say it's me or something. Hello. And then it's a me. And then I always just screw up the very first intro sentence to the podcast because I feel

uncomfortable saying it's, it's Haley and Sean. It's stressful. It's stressful with Mac and do I? And then don't say what Sean is here. It's Sean Gentilly and Haley, no Max Bolman. I don't know where he is. I haven't talked to him in weeks. Who cares?

Who cares? That's what I say. I hope he's listening to this. I guarantee you he's not. How about that? It's always funny to know that I think the only person who ever listens to the show or used to listen to the show. He's not going to anymore. He hates us is Ian Mendez. So I know that if I make a rude joke at Mendez, he's going to hear it, which makes it really funny. But if we dump on Craig, there's no way in hell that Custance is listening. So we just feels a little bit worse. There's like a hundred percent chance that Mendez continues listening to the show.

Yeah, except now he's trying to see. Mr. Bigwig, Mr. Bigwig with the Ottawa senators, he can tune in to see if Mackendu rips on Tim Stutzloff for diving and then, you know, text him and complain about it. He's got a direct lie. Like, that's, that's his dog know. I think that was a really unfair joke that you made about one of our guys. So, yeah, Brady's pretty upset. I highly doubt Brady Kachuk gives a shit what we have to say on the show. But seriously, congratulations to Ian Mendez.

We wanted to talk about that a little bit before we dive into our topic of the day. Obviously, I started hosting the show with Mendez four years ago. We did it for two years. And then I demanded a new podcast co-host. I know, I'm joking. I think it's very funny to always say that I demanded I couldn't work with Ian anymore because Ian's just the nicest guy probably at this company. So it's cool for Ian.

Silva, St. LaRaw is going to The Sends as well. I spent some time in Ottawa when I first started covering the NHL. And it's going to be, it's cool for Ian. And it's going to be great to see how that works out for them and the organization, the community. It's a big hit for the media market, Mendez and Sylvain, who did leave Lidoult earlier. But that's a big hit for the media market. So I'm excited to see who ends up filling that role.

Or there's young folks coming up because I know that's going to be something that Ian kind of allows as a VP of Coms is more like bloggers and young folks in the building. I know that wasn't always a thing in Ottawa. I certainly wasn't welcomed with open arms due to the perception of my age. So I'm very hopeful of what's to come in that market. And no, I'm not coming back. I should just say that now. I'm really sorry to all the Sense fans in my mentions. You're edging around something here.

Yeah. I'm not coming back. I've moved too many times. I just can't do it. But anyways, congrats to Ian Mendez. Congrats to the Sends. Congrats to you and congrats to his family. It's a good gig and we'll miss you, brother.

But I'm sure our paths will cross again in one way or another. Like I said, he can text me whenever I say that Drake Batherson is overpaid or that, you know, Jake Sanderson isn't one of the 10 best defensemen in the league or whatever the, whatever the complaints end up being, I'm ready and willing to accept them because Mendez is the best. Yeah. I'm going to be bugging him for like story pitches anytime I have nothing. thing to do, be like, hey, are there any interesting features to be done in the sentence this week? And he's going to be like, you need to leave me alone. You have to stop doing this.

I can now say, without a shadow of a doubt, that an NHL comms executive, watch me drink a yard of beer at the NHL draft. Glad, glad to be here. Showed out yardhouse. Shout out Ian Mendez. Okay, so as we mentioned, today's kind of topic, we're going back into the more deep dive. subjects and podcasts. I prefer doing these, especially in the summer when there's literally no news. Ian Mendez is the news, and we just covered that. So today I stole this from the athletic football show. That crew did a four-part series throughout the NFL off-season,

looking at buying or selling different teams off-season. And he kind of grouped them together into four different tiers, which would be the contenders, the playoff hopefuls, the middle, and then the teams in transition, which was a nice way of saying the bottom eight teams in the NFL who are trying not to be terrible next season. Very diplomatic. Yeah. We're not going to do all 32 teams today. We're certainly not even committing to doing a four-part series, but I did want to do this today while Sean and I are with you.

Because I think it's a great idea and it's a good way to just kind of vibe check how we're feeling about certain teams and what they did this summer. So today we're going to just take a look at the middle class, the mushy middle, if you want to be a little bit more rude. The teams that are not, we're not contenders last year, we're not even in the playoffs, but not the rebuilding teams, not the bottom of the barrel teams in the NHL last season. So that for us is going to be the New Jersey Devils, Pittsburgh Penguins, Calgary Flames, Buffalo Sabres, St. Louis Blues, Minnesota Wild, Detroit Red Wings, and the Philadelphia Flyers. you yell at me. A lot of this was just taken from the standings. This is not my subjective opinion on these teams. We took the top eight, the final eight teams from the playoffs. Those were the contenders last year. And we took the other playoff teams. Those are the playoff hopefuls. And we took the bottom eight. That's the teams in transition. And then this is the rest. This is

the middle. And these teams, what makes this kind of tier and this is why we chose this quite interesting is they could really rise up or fall down in either direction. Yeah. And they didn't make the playoffs. That's the important part. Like we can, which is genius, a stroke of genius on your part is that you just like leave out the,

leave out the wiggle room. You say like, okay, like we're not flip-flopping or whatever. If you came relatively close to making the playoffs but didn't, here you are. Yeah. So,

ready to go? Let's go. So again, the point of this exercise, are we buying what these teams are selling about their off season? Like, if you're holding stock in the New Jersey Devils, let's start there. Are you buying stock or are you selling it because you don't like what they did this off season? And just a little reminder here, key additions for the New Jersey Devils. Thomas Tatar comes back. Jacob Markstrom, obviously, is the key addition.

Brendan Dillon, Brett Pesci, key departures, Alexander Holtz, John Marino, Kevin ball and also a new coach out with Lindy Ruff in is Sheldon Keefe. Sean, are you buying or selling your stock in the New Jersey Devils? And you can't hold firm. I'm just going to say that. Bye, buy, buy, buy, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, I like everything that they've done. I like the way things were tracking for them at the end of last season. You know, we saw some real signs of life from Timo Meyer, who I think people maybe, internal, I mean, it's understandable because the start of their season was so disastrous and they were behind the eight ball so early and he was playing so terribly. I think people internalized that

that contract was looking like a disaster. And like a lot of money, a lot of years, but he was playing a whole lot better down the stretch than he was at the beginning. So I like that. I like Dougie Hamilton coming back. I like adding Pesci in particular, even though there's some city miles on that, on that guy. He's still, he's still the exact kind of dude that they need. need another year for Luke Hughes, another year for Simone Nemich, Nico Heeshire is going to be healthy for the duration. Like, I, it's, I couldn't be higher. Jack Hughes is a stud.

I think I came into the season last year saying that, like, the most entertaining guy not named Connor McDavid in the NHL is Jack Hughes. I've been buying devil stock for years now. How many times have people heard on this podcast? And I'm like, this is the year if they get a goalie. And they finally did that. I am not selling my devil stock. I have been holding on to this for three years now.

I'm buying more, in fact. Let's go. Yeah, it's good for them that the VDEC Fana check era is over. That was always dodgy in the first place. Goaltending was an issue for them coming into acquiring them a couple years ago, right? like it's been something we've talked about for years. And the market was bare back then. So like, you know, that's a deal that looks worse in hindsight, like staking their hopes on BTEC VANCHEC, whatever.

It's over with. It's gone. You don't just have Markstrom. You have Jake Allen. Yeah. Much better tandem. Yeah. They had one single.

I know we talked about all these other guys about about the additions and the guys coming back from injury. and, you know, another year of maturation for so many of these young guys. The single biggest issue was goaltending. They knew it. We knew it. It bit him in the ass again last year. And they could not have been more aggressive and they could not have made more major moves to rectify it. So, yeah, it would be tough for me to like them anymore.

Their depth chart at every position looks improved. I think we also need to mention, I do think the change. and coach is going to help them as well. It seemed like Lindy Ruff and some of the players, they just weren't jelling towards the end there, specifically with somebody like Eniq O'Heshire, things just didn't end up working out towards the end. Lindy Ruff had that really nice.

Like people were saying like Fire Lindy, I guess two years ago now. And then he ends up having like a great season with them, being a much better coach. It's been a big up and down in terms of, I think the fan and player relationship, with Lindy Ruff. And now you get a fresh start. You get Sheldon Keefe, who, uh, despite what happened in Toronto, I do think he's a very good coach. And I'm excited to see

what Sheldon Keefe can do with a different roster and a roster that is, you know, built in a different way and has depth that all three positions now. And, and I think, um, even looking at, I think Brett Pesci and Brendan Dillon is a nice upgrade on the blue line from a John Marino and a Kevin Ball when you're looking at the bottom two pairs. And again, Dougie, Hamilton is going to be a huge addition back into this lineup as well. So there's just stars at literally every position for the New Jersey Devils. And yeah, I'm buying more stock. Don't make me look stupid again, please.

Goaltending, fixed. Coaching, fixed. Defensive depth chart fixed. And the health of some key forwards and players across the lineup fixed. Like I keep saying, man, we've said it. Plenty of times. Everybody was all in on them last year, but it's tough to look at what they've done

and how they've righted the ship there over the last little bit and not be really enthused and on board. For sure. And for what it's worth, Dom does this every year, but which teams have approved the most this off season? He rates all 32 teams. And in terms of like the net rating added, the only team that added more,

and it's easy to do that when you were starting so low, was the Chicago Blackhawks. They're the only ones that, and you know what, the Blackhawks had a great offseason. I liked what they did. They put more around Connor Bedard,

so they'll be more watchable when he's not on the ice, et cetera, et cetera. But they're not in the tier we're talking about. So in terms of this middle class of teams in the NHL, no team added more value

than the New Jersey Devils did this off season. So we're clearly buying stock. Pittsburgh Penguin, Sean. We're coming in hot. I was going to maybe leave them towards the end, but I feel like this is a good one to round out the first segment. Because they're kind of complicated because you're not allowed to just hold firm, which is what I would do. I would say, let me, let me just see. And maybe I'll cash out in a few months if I decide I don't like what I've seen.

Yeah, it's a, it's a cell. It has to be a cell. Because it didn't adequately replace Jake Gensel. difficult as that would have been. It's a rough group of forwards, even though they're improved in a lot of ways along the bottom six, I just don't see where that next layer of scoring after Crosby's going to come from.

And I should say the key additions, Kevin Hayes, Anthony Bovillier, Matt Griswick, key departures, Riley Smith, Jeff Carter, and P.O. Joseph. Yeah, it's no Crosby extension, which we

believed would be coming at some point this summer, but has not. Blake Lazot. Oh, sorry, I forgot that one. Although, I actually, I actually liked the Blake Lazot. I remember you were more into Blake Lazot than for them than I was. But, you know, they- Yeah, that's great. Love that. They added some pieces, but the question marks are just too,

they're too significant. And there's too much money tied up in players that are either immovable or unproductive. And we're talking the former, we're talking about Ricard Rekyll and mainly Rickerkel at this point because they did move Riley Smith. But like guys like that, they're just,

you know, Ricardo Kelle makes $5 million a year. When you're a capped out team, like the penguins have, have been for the most part. You can't pay a guy like him that much, right? And you have, Ryan Graves was atrocious last year.

and he makes $4.5 million until 2029. No one knows whether Tristan Jari is any good at all still on and on and on. There's too many questions. The roster is meaningfully worse than it has been in the past. I just don't think how you can look at them and see anything but an arrow that's pointed down. Not to be critical. I think I've been a little bit more of a dubious apologist, and you can say that's because I'm from Toronto

or what have you. I think I've definitely been a bit more like I haven't poo-poohed on all of the moves that he's made probably more than most. I think the Ryan Graves one is one that we can absolutely objectively sit and say like that's a bad deal.

That was my thing is I didn't think that Dubas made a bunch of missteps. I think made one bit one. It's the Jake Gensel of it all. and like maybe that is something that wasn't in his control if Jake Gensel is saying like, nope, I'm done.

I want to go be the guy somewhere else. But to me, it's like you're going to, you're going to go and spend $9 million trying to piece together a few people that are maybe half as good as Jake Gensel. And that's where the biggest issue with the Penguins goes is like you've already committed to the big three.

You've committed to trying to make this work. So who cares if you're overpaying Jake Gensel when your team is trash four years from now? Because at least you had him when it mattered. And yeah, I've got to know. Based on Jake Gensel not being on this roster, as much as Sydney Crosby is still great, like, Evgeny Malkin, like those guys are not the problem. But like, who else is going to produce for them? And that has consistently been the issue.

It's never really been their problem. It's been who's around them. and the penguins did not figure that out last year. They didn't figure it out this year, and I've got to sell my stock. They improved a little around the margins by all the Blake Lizots of the world, and they lost a gigantic piece in Jake Gensel and didn't replace it or didn't replace them adequately. So I don't know how you look at that and think they're in any better spot now than they were six months ago. And I was, again, like, smashing the Penguins are Back baby last summer when the Carlson deal happened.

And that was one of the things where I was like Kyle Dubus Masterclass. He dumped all those Hextal deals. He got Eric Carlson. Jake Gensel's still here. Let's go. And they missed the playoffs and then lost Jake Gensel. So I don't really know how we can sit here and say that the penguins are going to fall upwards. Maybe they will.

Maybe Crosby has another unbelievable year. I think they'll be in the fight again, but I think it probably ends the same way as it did last year, which is lose a couple games to San Jose at the end of the season, and you're toast. We should mention Carlson specifically, because I actually just had this conversation with Tom as it relates to something else.

I don't think we should, like, I think Eric Carlson was better last season than a lot of other people. Like, I feel like I'm somewhere. I didn't think he was bad. I don't think the deal is the reason why things didn't work last season. But I think it's easy to look at that power play and say like, oh, if they just get this fixed, you know, there's too much talent, you know, whatever. They did a coaching swap, yada, yada, yada. I don't think people should assume that that power play is fixable at this point. And I don't think it's smart to assume that, you know, how could it, how could it have been worse than it was last year? Like, they'll figure it out with Carlson and Malkin and Crosby. I don't know that that's. I think that's very, very far from a given. If the penguin signed Sydney Crosby to an extension before the start of training camp, do you then buy some of your stock back?

No. I think it'll just be a good, it'll be a good thing for them to have handled. It'll be a good thing for the franchise and for the city and whatever, but not, I don't think having Crosby extended makes them, I don't think them having them, I don't think them having Crosby extended by, you know, the end of August or whatever makes them meaningfully better. It's a distraction that's removed. But in terms of the on-ice product, which I feel like is what we're sort of focusing on here, I don't think it really matters. Do you have a thought on the off-season acquisition of Ajax the cat by Rob Rossi?

Heard quite a lot about Ajax. Over the telephone. Over the phone, over text. over social media. I have yet to meet him. I think if I don't head over to the Rossi estate and meet this cat at some point relatively soon, maybe friendship over with you.

Yeah, bridges are going to be burned, huh? He's pushing for it. He's very cute. You should do it. All right, so we're both... That's not true. That's an insane thing to say. Okay, so we are both buying...

New Jersey devil stock. We are both selling our Pittsburgh penguin stock. Very hard for me to say, even though I'm not the one who's based in Pittsburgh. I think everyone just knows I was Penguins fan girl anyway. I'm the Penguins fan of this podcast, actually. Let's take a quick break. And when we come back, we will get into the Calgary Flames, Buffalo Sabres in Detroit Red Wings. That's coming up next on the athletic hockey show. All right, we are back. It's time for the mushy middle of the mushy middle, I guess. As producer Jeff said, this is the mushy middle of the show.

I promise we'll try to make it better than these teams. That seems unreasonably harsh, actually, because some of these teams are fine. Unreasonably harsh. Let's start with the Buffalo Sabres. I actually forget who I teased in the first segment. I have a goldfish brain,

but I think I said the Buffalo Sabres. Key addition, Sean, Ryan McLeod, Jason Zucker, Nicholas Obey Cubell, Sam Lafferty, Key Departures, Jeff Skinner, Victor Olives, and Coaching Change. So they go from Don Granato to Lindy Ruff, who we talked about in the first segment with the New Jersey Devils. Are you buying or selling what the sabres are kind of putting down here? I think this hinges so much on whether we think that Tage Thompson and Dylan Cousins can resume their upward trajectory, right? And I shouldn't even say it's not, it's not to a lesser extent, but also

Ellen Power, also Rasman Dalene. It was a season of stagnation, I think, in a lot of spots there. Yes, Tage Thompson was a better defensive player maybe than he has been in the past, but he gave back so much offensive production that it, you know, was a net, was a net negative, right? I think Ryan, it's sorry to cut you off.

I just kind of wanted to jump in on that point specifically. I think that's where the Ryan McLeod edition really will end up helping the team, not just in general in terms of being that third line defensive center, but maybe it can help take some of that defensive load off of Tage and say, like, you don't have to be the big two-way defensive guy, like go to work in the offensive zone, and I'll take the D-Zone face-offs and I'll take the D-Zone workload. I think that's where Ryan McLeod helps out, right? If he helps T.H. Thompson split the difference where he's not a catastrophic defensive mess as he was for a couple years. He was. He was one of the worst by defensive impacts. He was one of the very, very, very worst players in the NHL. The great thing about him is that he counterbalanced that with offensive fireworks and, you know, dangles, dangles through the, you know, in the offensive zone and highlight real goals and all this.

So, like, everybody, everybody loves Tage Thompson, but he, you know, he hasn't, the, uh, the, uh, the sliders aren't where they need to be. You know what I mean? There's like the, the levels, the levels are off. And I think it's on Lindy Ruff to help fix that, which we shall see. But I, I think as they go, so goes, so goes, still goes Tage, um, or vice versa. I think they got their goaltending issue fixed in a lot of ways. I think Luca Pekka Lukinen is pretty good, and he certainly gives them an option for however long it takes. Devon Levi to turn into the guy that it seems like everyone believes in a B.

But I think I'm a soft sell on them for this year. Okay. I need to see, I think last year was a problem. And I'm going to need to see them swing back up a little bit before I totally buy what they're selling. Because everybody for years, they're similar to the devils. Everyone was so into the sabres for a year, however long, right? Two years running where they had that, where they had those strong finishes at the end. And it's like, okay, this is the year happens.

I'm not making that mistake. I think I'm a soft buy on the sabers. because I think they made the moves. I think they made good moves this off season. I know selling Matt Savoy. Like that's, that was a, it was pricey to bring in Ryan McLeod, but he is exactly what they needed,

especially after the Casey Middlestat deal. Like he's going to be able to come in right away and take that third line center role and play big minutes and play important minutes for this team. And so I think that's something that the Sabres team needs because they're not trying to have the, high potential guys anymore. Like this team needs to start producing sooner rather than later, right?

Like you can't just keep having prospects in the cupboard. You need NHL players. So I know that trade was at risk, but it shows a commitment to like, no, we need to actually field a proper team this year. I agree with you. I think a lot is going to hinge on,

you know, Tage Thompson, Alex Tuck, and Dylan cousins if they can rebound. Like there's a lot of ifs baked into the equation with the sabers. but I think, and so I think it's this interesting balance of like, okay, did they just peak? Did they, was that two years ago, the year that they were like charging and could have made the playoffs? Like, is that a sign of what is to come when this team is fully baked?

Or was that just a complete like blip on the screen? Oopsie, never going to happen again. And so I think I'm going to soft by because I just think of the way that everyone was looking at the Sabres. They were so much fun coming into last season. And it was like, look at what they did last year. They're ready for it now. So maybe it's silly to soft buy on them, but I'm going to. Maybe it's just to be a little bit different from what you're saying.

But I like the moves that they made. I liked what this team looked like two years ago. I think I've seen enough from like Tage and cousins to think they can rebound. So I'm a soft buy. Like I'm not going all in here. But I don't want to sell. I think this would be the perfect team to hold first. on and say like, let's see what they look like two weeks, two months into the season and then decide.

Yeah. Thanks to your arbitrary rule setting. We're not permitted to do that. I think that's lame. I think that's lame. We shouldn't be allowed to do that. But I can bake that into my answer. Just too many, too many question marks. I like that they change the mix. I like I like what McLeod does for them in 2024. I think Jason Zucker is, you know, still a solid middle six, you know, third line, third line vet. He's a good dude. He's a leader. He's a proven pro and all that stuff.

They change the mix in meaningful ways, but I think at the top of the lineup, there's still just too many questions for me to sign off. Okay. Dom has them as the ninth most improved team this off season as well, by the way. And there's also the Bo Byram of it all. That's another one, though. It is.

Question mark for you? Yeah. I don't know. I'm a big, we love the town. We love the talent. We love the talent and he needs, you know, it's good to see him in the lineup for a significant amount of time. But, you know, the production needs to follow. And I'm just not, there's, there's too many guys you can say that same thing about like cousins, Thompson. Just, uh, but Byram just too much, too much for me. Yeah. I like what they did. And then I again, it's the question mark. If, if, if, if their star guys can look closer to their 20, 22, 23 selves, then this is going to be a good team. So. I'm going to soft buy. I'm going to take a little risk here. I'm going to buy some saber stock. Let's go to the Calgary Flames next. Well, you know what? So I think I think this depends on the way that this is phrased. I think if you're saying like, are you buying like what Craig Conroy is

selling in terms of this rebuild? Then I think, yeah, I buy into it. I believe in it. They actually are tearing down. But if you are like interested in owning flame stock, I'm probably saying no, thank you. Because you can keep you can keep selling because it's going to this rebuild is going to take forever, especially if they can't get rid of like Hubert O. Codry, especially if they don't sell high on like a Rasmus Anderson. I know we talked about it on the show when we did a big flame segment. And we said like if you are truly rebuilding, you got to trade like Anderson. and you got to trade Mandjupani. And they did that.

They traded Andrew Mangiopani to the Washington Capitals, but this is still not a fully blown-up hockey team. You can see that Craig Conroy is doing it, but this is going to be tough. They're going to be stuck in the mushy middle, and that's why I put them here for a while, if not just the bottom of the league. It's going to be tough.

They should have tried to trade cadre this summer. He was really good last year. How many teams were looking for like a one, B2C guy. I don't think things are going to look better also for Nazan Khadre than they did. He was really good last year. He's also 33 years old now, plays some hard hockey. He makes $7 million for the next four seasons.

And is he going to be their number one center? Is he going to get exposed a little bit more? I just, you know, you say this, that the rebuild started and like, yeah, it did. But there's still Jonathan Eubertoe. and Azam Kadri and Blake Coleman and McKenzie Weger. There's a lot of guys in their 30s that are signed for a lot of money and a lot of time. And those contracts aren't going to get easier to move. Other than maybe Uber-Doh, because it almost feels like that couldn't get,

that couldn't get tougher. I think Cadre would probably get like one of the bigger halls of compared to the other moves that Craig Conroy's made, too, As long as, if he plays like he did last season, they can move him next summer and get a King's Ransom for him, right? But I'll believe it when I see it. I'm selling on the Calgary Flames, if that's not clear. Yeah. And I'm pretty sure he is a no-move clause.

And he's under contract until 20, 28, 29. So, yeah. I saw that Dregor, TSN's Darren Dregor, has said that. Oh, I thought you meant the other one. one. He did say. Frank Dreger. Shut up.

I'm trying to be respectful. Local newsman in Hamilton, Ontario, Frank Dreger. Shut up. We made it 30 minutes into the show without me having to tell you to shut up. We were doing so well. About 34 minutes. This is when listeners start feeling uncomfortable. Dregor did say at the end of June that teams are calling the flames with interest in Nassim

Codry. but the flames are not in a full tear down. They're trying to reset their roster and cadre is a big part of that. So that's where I'm like, I'm selling my stock. Like if you're not just going to fully... He's 30...

He's 30... I almost swore. He's 33 years old. Like, come on. It's over. Move them while you can. Yeah. Timmy. God bless Flames fans, man.

They would drive me insane. They are patient and they are kind. Great movie. We should also say... Not regressive and weird. We should also say, key additions, Anthony Manta, Kevin Ball, Jake Bean. Great.

You're buying this? No, I'm selling. I said I'm selling. I said if I was trying to think of like... Kevin Ball! Key departures, Andrew Mongey, Oliver Shillington, and Jacob Markstrom. No, I meant like, are you buying that the flames are rebuilding?

No, I don't. But now I'm changing my mind after I read the Dregor tweet. Because they're like, they're not in a tear down. Like, okay, well, then never mind. So you're going to add, they really believe in the core of Jonathan Euberdoe and Nazam Khadry to get them back to, you know, a team that can not just make the playoffs, but advance around her two. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

I'm sorry, flames fans. I'm selling my flame stock. Let's head to the Detroit Red Wings. Hey, can I ask a question? Yeah, sure. Is that arena done? Is it going to happen? Is it done?

Not done, but like they put... Did they finish building it already? There's shovels in the ground, right? Yes, yes. I wasn't paying attention. Okay. That's shocking. That's legitimately shocking to me that that finally happened.

Yeah, which is great. Like, well, I don't know all the details of it. I'm not sure if there's like taxpayer dollars in there, so I'm not going to say that's super great just to get yelled at about smart money. But like, I am happy that there are shovels in the ground for the long talked about event center.

I apologize for not remembering all the details because it's been like a really big back and forth thing. Like I know that because the Edmonton building was taxpayer funded Calgary wanted the same thing and public public financing is accounting for 515 million dollars of the of the construction fee on this 870 million dollar arena so congratulations all right it's gonna be like scotia place like this is just more fodder

it's a Scotia bank's Saddle dome I know but this is just more fodder for my theory that there's only like six Canadian corporations and they have to actually sponsor everything Scotia Bank. Can you name all six? Scotia Bank, Rogers, Bell,

Tim Hortons, and Maddie's Paddies and Pizza Pizza and Canadian tire. Yeah. Maddie's Paddies is incorporated.

That was actually pretty good. You did well. Canadian tire Petro Canada, that's a big one. S.O. Cool. Lulu Lemon. And then failing telecommunications firms.

We love it. All right. Let's go to the Detroit Red Wings. Key additions. Producer Jeff says there was an ESO in Italy. Was it real? Eso. Eso.

Multiple ESO stations. It's a ESO. Shut up. Producer Jeff had a nice vacation in Italy, and my vacation has included me getting sick, which is why I sound very nasally if you didn't notice. Anyways. We're going to, that is like so offensive. Guess what? I'm allowed.

No, you're not. Yes, I am. You're like a quarter Italian. Half. What is the thing you said about Chris Pratt being the Mario? Oh, my culture is not your costume, Chris Pratt. It's so funny that every time he, this is my last rant and then we're getting back on track. This is where we need Max because Max just stares straight ahead and doesn't move and makes me feel like I need to move on.

If you couldn't see the sweat trickling down Max's face, you would think he was dead. Just desperately trying to move the talk to, you know, prospect camp and Traverse. or whatever. Yeah. Every time Chris Pratt gets hired as a voice actor, he just talks like Chris Pratt. Like he's Garfield, but it's just Chris Pratt. And it really pisses me off.

Like, do more. Anyways. Yeah. There's not like some army of Chris Pratt defenders that's going to leave to his defense. Stop hiring this guy. Everyone's had enough of this dude. Until he changes his voice for a role. Like, you didn't even try to sound like Garfield.

It's so offensive to me. Anyways, as a cat. As a cat owner, my cats died. What are you talking about? But I used to own cats. My cats died? Anyways, he had a long life. He was 18.

This is the next team. This is a tough one. Key additions. Vladimir Tarasenko, Tyler Mott, Eric Gustafson, Camp Talbot, key departures, David Perron, Daniel Spron, Daniel Sprong, Robbie Fabry, Shane Gossesbair, Jake Walman. I think all the Red Wings fans just turned off the podcast too, after they heard me try to talk about them so many times and just talked about Garfield.

Sean, are you buying or selling? So, I don't see it in actual, based on their goals, I think it could easily be a step back from last year. I don't see them as anything more than a French playoff team. I don't think they have enough help for Dylan Larkin. I think they're in real, real danger of watching him age out as, you know, we'll say top 15 or top 20 center in the NHL. I don't think they're going to be bad, but it's tough to look at that roster. I think it's going to be all that good either.

There's no glaring holes, but there's also not a ton to love. The Walman move is still a tough one for me because that probably just means that Justin Hall is going to play way more, and like that didn't go super well. Just another year. Any of his previous stops. Another year of throwing Moritz cider to the wolves in terms of his usage.

Like does Simon Edvinson work there? I know that's what a lot of people are wishcasting that he's said Simon Edmondson steps up and he's, you know, a legit top pair partner for more at cider in his first full. NHL season, but man, I just, it's, it's tough, man. The East is tough.

I don't really see how they improve meaningfully. Especially if you think that a team like the Ottawa senators had a good offseason and improved meaningfully or, like, they're in a tough division. And I think they didn't do enough to improve. I don't think that means that they're not going to have a chance at the playoffs. and I think Dom put this really well. Again, I was looking at his, which teams made improvements.

Stop bringing them as much. That's rude. I think if the Red Wings escape this mushy middle, it's because of like their core pieces that improved on their own in terms of their development versus anything that Steve Iserman did this summer. Totally.

If we're talking about them as a playoff team, it's going to be because Lucas Raymond got better and Moritz-Sider got better. And Edmondson's the real deal from the jump. And that's like not impossible, right? But I just don't, I don't, I don't see it. And I, and I still don't like the center depth. It's a problem.

Like I like, I like Andrew Cop well enough. But those aren't, those aren't the guys that you, that, that you insulate someone like, someone like Larkin with, Andrew Copp and J.T. Comfer. That is not, that's not a contend, that's not a contender's line up down the middle. I'm sorry. And I think there's still, I think there's probably questions about the defense too. Like is Eric Osson of Sinnett improvement over Shane Gostis Bear? We're talking about Simon Edmondson and more, we're talking about Simon Edmondson and Moritz cider a lot, but there's, you know, 48 minutes of the game that need to be played without them on the ice,

right? Right. And the options they have aren't not good. And when you're looking at the forwards, you know, Tyler Mott can be like a good fourth line defensive checking type guy. But then you're also looking at, you know, Latimer Tarasenko is going to bring more offense, but is he going to bring the same defensive commitment as like a David Perron? Is he going to do more than David Prawn?

Is he not great on David Prawn? I don't think he is at this point. It's probably a wash when you're thinking about offensive value and defensive value, right? Yep. I'm not buying Red Wings stock right now. And I'm not like angrily selling it off. Really? Oh, yes.

Are Red Wings fans like really pleased with the offseason? There are absolute deadenders within that fan base that did freak out over any, over even gentle criticism of the direction of that franchise. I'm not really critical. I'm not saying like, ooh, this team sucks. I'm just saying when we're looking at the team's off seasons, not the team itself, right?

We're looking at what the team did this summer, and I am not buying stock based on what Steve Eiserman did this summer. And again, that's why I said, like, I'm not saying this team might not be good. I'm not saying they're not going to make the playoffs. I'm just saying if they do those things, it's going to be because of what already existed within that core,

not because of what happened this off season. That's the distinction in this exercise, right? We're buying and selling off seasons. And I don't really like, like what they did this off season. I'm sorry. I don't like them. I don't like the trajectory period. That's what I'm saying. So whatever. People, people, people can get mad at me for that one. It's not what you're saying. That's what I'm saying. Okay. I guess we'll see. Is there a next one? I wish Max was here.

I don't. Oh. I know exactly where he is. Is he on vacation? That is none of your business. Well, he's my friend too. If he was, you would know where he was. I've been talking about once. All right, we're going to take a quick break. We have three teams left, save the best for last. It's the St. Louis Blues, Minnesota Wild, and the Philadelphia Flyers.

But first, before we take a quick break, the Olympics are rolling along in the Athletic Podcast Network, has you covered. The Athletic Women's Basketball Show, NBA show, and full time with Meg Linahan, are bringing you reports from France after all the big team USA basketball games. and soccer matches. Plus, you can check out the summer of champions on the no dunks feed every night when action in Paris wraps up. Check it out wherever you get your podcast.

We'll be right back here on the athletic coffee show. We are back. It's time for the final segment of the show. We've got the Philadelphia Flyers, Minnesota Wild, and St. Louis Blues left in our kind of mushy middle tier of the NHL. Again, are we buying or selling their off seasons? is the point, okay? Not just buying yourself.

I feel like you're like really trying to correct me here because I've been, I've been floating around on that. It's okay. No, no, no, no. No, no. I think talking about the team as a whole and like will happen. But I'm just more saying that for fans who might say I just poo poohed on their entire organization.

I'm talking about the moves they made this summer and how that changes how I feel about the team. Fliers. No real big additions in Philadelphia when we're looking at offseason, but a key departure in Camp Atkinson. You gave me a look. Are you thinking Matt Vaymichkov? Sure I am. Well, that's not really like a free agent. I don't, I think he is why I'm in on that. He is why I'm buying them. Okay. Like I think, I think that I think the fact that they're getting him we'll see. I was looking at additions as somebody that they're. brought in that's new. I guess he's technically new. They're in neutral other than that. But like he's such a,

he's such a huge piece and he's so important to that franchise. And he seems like he's ready. And the fan base is psyched about it. Like, I don't know how you can. I'm, I'm buying them. Because I like, I like some stuff on their roster.

I do. I don't, I think there's, there's work to be done. But I, I generally like the job that they've, the job that Danny Breyer's done. And I think, I think, Mishkov is just, I'm, I'm excited to watch that dude play hockey. And I think that alone makes them a buy in a pretty, a pretty solid one for me. Okay.

I mean, I thought that team was, I think they surprised a lot of people last year. Mm-hmm. For sure. But they did it, like, I think, like, Tyson Forster, he's like a pretty good, he turns out he's a pretty good, he's a pretty good player. I think Morgan Frost is a pretty good player. And Owen Tippett. Like I,

Travis Kineckney, like he's still there. He's still really productive. I like, I like pieces there and I like the way things are trending. And like, maybe this is short-sighted of me because I'm thinking,

you know, I'm psyched to watch, to tune into some Flyers Islanders game in January for no real reason. For nothing that exciting to watch. other than just to see what this dude can do. I'm psyched about him. So for me, that's enough to,

that's not to push them into the win category. Yeah. I think the way I look at the flyers in their off season, like they didn't do anything that would make me want to sell. Like if I already had stock in the flyers, I'm not selling it because they didn't do anything egregiously bad. And they didn't really make big additions in terms of free agent signings because that's not the MO in Philadelphia right now.

And I can appreciate that they are actually sticking to their plan. They're not saying, like, oh, we were actually pretty good last year. Let's add a bunch of stuff and see what we can do. They're being like, nope, we like our trajectory. We think we're doing the plan as we like it. And oh, by the way, let's go and add this guy who could be an unbelievable rookie next season. So I would, based on the exercise we're doing, I would buy stock in the flyers because

I can appreciate sticking to your guns and sticking to the plan. And it seems like organizationally, Tortorella and Breyer and Keith Jones are all in lockstep on on the goal here. And I can appreciate that a lot. I think that's a great point. I think it's a great point. You can have a good off season without being all that active. Because how many times have we seen it where a team like Philly who outkick their coverage a bit last season?

And again, like I'm. Too much. Yeah. You try to accelerate the process and you shoot yourself in the foot while you're doing it. Right? Like they didn't go out and add anybody aggressive. They didn't make some win now move. They didn't add a bunch of future cat.

Yeah, they probably still look at the Jamie Drysdale move as like, yeah, we're good. Let's see how that works. Yeah. Yeah, it's like we'll see how that works. He makes that team interesting. This is a big year for Jamie Drysdale, I think. But yeah, this is a, this is a, this is a, this is a buy for me. Yeah.

The flyers are very interesting, and I think they'll continue to be next season. Minnesota Wilde. Key additions, Yaakov, Trennan, and... I always mispronounce these names. I'm so sorry. Jakob Lauco, Jacob Lauco, I'm so sorry. And Vinnie LaTherry is a key departure for the Wild. I... Are you buying yourself?

Well, they're in cap hell still because of the buyout decisions that were made a couple years ago. So we knew that there wasn't going to be much movement. This would be like the definition of a hold. Of hold, yeah. I'll allow it. No, I'm not changing the rules. No, we've come. Never mind.

We've come this far. I'll say by because I think by just, you know, by not doing that much, they're banking on. Yeah. You know, Caprizov and Matt Boldy and whoever else being better. But I think this is still. And like a full year under John Hines. Man, this is better. Yeah, most of them we'll see about that.

I think this is like the deaf. And they're, they're stuck in the mud by design. Like, we knew that this was going to be a punt for them basically. and that's how it's played out. Yeah. They only added $4 million in salary. So that's not terrible in terms of like net. Trennan seems like an upgrade for the bottom six compared to what they had last season.

So that's a bit of a win for them. So yeah, I would, yeah, again, this would be like a great. I'm going to hold. Mm-hmm. But we're not allowed. So it's a soft, it's a soft buy, I guess. Yeah, I'm trying to make sure that I'm being consistent because I'm like, I'm selling my Red Wing stock and then buying wild stock based on... I'm treating it like, like, how do they, how do I feel about them coming out of the off season versus coming into it?

Not necessarily about additions or subtractions or whatever. Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm doing too. And I don't really feel any differently about the Minnesota wild. I feel better about them being in the mix, I think, for a playoff spot for the duration of the season. which was not really the case for them last year. Like they were functionally out of it relatively early. I don't think I see that as being the case this year for them, but also that is very far from a cup caliber roster.

Yeah. I think in terms of, like if we thought of other teams in their division or conference, that aren't in these tiers, like if you start to like widen out the lens and think like the Jets didn't improve, in fact, the Jets might take a step back, then maybe you start to feel a bit better about the Minnesota Wild.

And I think you could see the Wild and the Blues both being in spots to try to make the playoffs next season. Yep. I agree. So I guess I would buy wild stock. And there's obviously, like, we haven't even discussed the players who are on that roster. They're not like additions or subtractions. And Kareil Caprizov is still elite. And I think you buy stock in a team with. the player like that on it, despite the other issues, right?

So decent logic, despite, you know, the, uh, despite the other problems that are very, very clear. Yeah, but if I'm not allowed to hold, they haven't done anything to make me sell. So yeah, I'll soft buy on the wild. Um, okay, finally, the St. Louis Blues, they did make some changes. Drew Bannister comes in instead of Craig Rubei, uh, key departure, Kevin Hayes, key additions, Matthew Joseph, Alexander Texier, and Radic Faxa.

How do you feel about the St. Louis Blues, Sean? I think they're trending up maybe in terms of point projections, but I just don't, I don't see a contender there, so it's tough for me to, it's tough for me to buy. They're a soft sell for me.

You soft sell on the blues, but you soft buy on the wild? Yeah, because I like... What's the differentiation point there for you? What makes the wild better? Probably the presence of someone like Brock Weber or like the wilds, the wilds defense. I think St. Louis is still a mess.

And I think generally for as bad as the wild cap situation has been, and as much as it railroaded them, or they railroaded themselves coming into this off season, I think this just feels like another year in neutral for the blues, where it's like you look at that, you look at that defensive group and it's like, I know, I know Tori Krug seems like he could potentially miss the season,

but it's like, Colton Pereko's still there, Nick Letty's still there, Justin Falk's still there. And those guys are not good enough to get it done, and they're only getting older, and they're not getting any cheaper. So I feel like they haven't cleared their long-term cap situation,

really at all. They didn't get meaningfully better, even though- They also signed Ryan Suter after. Yeah, I mean, whatever. He's, he's there. Yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, I'm, that's, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't sign off on what they'd done, because there's not a direction. Philadelphia, even though they didn't meaningfully improve is trending in the right direction. There's a plan that you can, there's a plan that you can, either. And I still don't think that whatever the blues are doing has been articulated all that well. I like neighbors, Thomas, and Cairo. Like, I think they've got good pieces there. Yeah, sure. And honestly, Jordan Bittington should have been a finalist for the Fesda last year,

arguably. So there's like good, there's really good pieces in St. Louis, but I just, I guess. The defense is just, it didn't get any better. And you could argue that maybe it got worse. And the questions of age and cap and cap layout is just, it's too much for me to ignore. I feel like I'm inclined to say soft buy because I soft bought on the wild. And they do just seem kind of similar to each other. But I don't, I don't feel, I think those two teams are in this,

like if we were to tear out all the teams within this tier, like these two are very hand in hand for me. So I think I need to soft buy on both, even though I'm not particularly excited about either of them is what I would say. I think at the end of the year, if we're flashing forward to the final month of the season, I could see these two teams being like close together in the standings. And so if I'm going to soft buy on the wild,

I have to soft buy on the blues. I think they could finish in a very similar, spot in terms of point total, but I just, the deal breaker for me is where things go from there, right? I think they're maybe not headed in opposite directions, but it definitely ain't the same. And I just need, you know, the lack of clarity with whatever comes next for them is just, it makes it impossible for me to sign off. Yeah. I like the Matthew Joseph deal too. Like, that could end up working out nicely for them and like the Sends had to add a sweetener because the contract's not great.

Yeah. So I do like that move for the blues. They didn't do anything too crazy. They didn't add a bunch of money. They added $5 million in salary, dumped Kevin Hayes. Yeah, it was a fine off season. The team is fine. That's it, man.

These are like peak, mushy middle. Yep. Like, that's what makes this tier interesting because I think you have some teams. Like, if I were to look at the, I think the devils rise out of the middle. I think the penguins, the wild, the blues probably stay there. Like, they're on the cusp, but they don't crack it. And then I think the flames fall. I think the flyers are, you know, interesting and fun, but who knows?

Like, then you've got like the sabers, flyers, red wings tier, which is like a, we don't know what happened. Like, they're going to be interesting to watch. Like, this is a really interesting grouping of teams because you have some clear. risers and fallers and then the others who are like the middle of the middle that are going to be really interesting to see how things actually progress once they start playing yep this was fun this was actually a fun off season exercise yeah it helps uh helps for me to actually start thinking about hockey teams again when we can hang up and i can go back to gold zone NBC olympics gold zone watch some fencing or whatever's on right now yeah

I really loved watching the women's rugby sevens. Canada gets silver. That was unbelievable. Oh, man. That's the walk-off try for the U.S. The moment of the Olympics for me so far is the walk-off try by the U.S. team. I was so thankful to be watching that live. I jumped up and jumped off the couch.

It was, I care about rugby, apparently. Imagine that. Women's Rugby Sevens is elite. I don't even know what's on today. I love watching the beach. volleyball. That's one of my favorites. It was definitely on earlier. Yeah, I was watching it yesterday for Canada.

So we'll see. I will probably just park it and watch the Olympics too. That's the end of the show. Everybody, thank you so much for listening. Sean and I will be back at some point. Not totally sure when that will be. But maybe we can do this again. We can buy or sell a different team. The good thing is, the good thing is we have our gimmick for the rest of the off season.

It's true. We just roll out of bed and talk about, you know, which rebuilding. teams we like, come on. Yeah, I like this. This was great. Thanks, the athletic football show for the idea. And thanks everyone for listening. We'll see you at an undisclosed time.