The Athletic Hockey Show - Are you buying or selling on these playoff hopeful tiers?

Episode Date: August 15, 2024

Hailey Salvian and Sean Gentille return, with the NHL Buying and Selling series, where they look at if they're buying or selling what teams around the league did this offseason. This time, Hailey and Sean focus on the playoff hopeful tiers. These are teams which made the playoffs last season that are hoping to retain their position this season, including the Kings, Jets, Golden Knights, Islanders, Capitals, Lightning, Predators and Maple Leafs.Hosts: Hailey Salvian and Sean GentilleExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Jeff Domet Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. What's up, everyone? Welcome back to the athletic hockey show. It's Haley Salveen and Sean Jintilly here with you this week. On this Thursday, Max Boltman doesn't have internet. He's off watching Shrek 2 on DVD. I don't think that's an exaggeration. We didn't ask what DVDs he was watching as his internet.

That knocked out yesterday and apparently he isn't getting fixed until like midway through. The key thing if you were someone who doesn't have cable or whatever relies on an internet connection for whatever you watch on the screen, you got to have the old school antenna

set up. Go to CVS, buy a $20 thing that you hook up to your TV and then you can watch at least basic channels. I would expect nothing less from Max though. There's nothing wrong with watching an old DVD. You

have a Blu-ray player, don't you? You were talking about your Blu-ray set. I mean, physical media is important, for sure. Yeah. And we'll only become more so. So everybody buy DVDs and CDs and vinyl and stuff. But, I mean, whatever. What I'm saying is he should be able to watch Price is Right, like in the morning or something.

You need to make sure that you have that option. Yeah. I'm not totally convinced that he doesn't have internet. He just doesn't want to come back to work yet. But you're back, Sean. You're back to work. You had a story today come out about the lawsuit between the CHL and the NCAA. Back to work after a summer off.

How does it feel? It's an interesting story. I'm surprised it took this long for somebody to challenge the NCAA rules. I also take umbrage with you saying that I had the summer off. It was like two weeks of like whatever. You had more than two weeks off. You didn't podcast for a month. I don't know if you're aware of this,

but my job has other responses, has responsibilities that extend beyond podcasting. But yeah, I think as far as the actual work is concerned and, you know, the big news of the last couple of days, at least in our little quadrant was that a former, very, very briefly former CHL player filed a class action lawsuit, you know, where they named it, NCAA is defendants and a bunch of school is defendants,

basically challenging the rule that, you know, any CHL player who's played any, any amount of time, any amount of games, whether it's two or 200, is basically barred from NCAA competition. It's a shoe that people were waiting to drop, and I think it finally did. And it's going to be interesting to watch this wind through the courts for a lot of reasons,

but most of all because of the other lawsuits that have been filed against the NCAA and the other judgments that have been levied against that NCAA where, you know, we're watching the concept of amateurism and the NCAA's core business model and the whole, you know, house that the palace has been built on, really shift and change and be altered. And I think it was a weird little carve out that hockey had where they had this one specifically that, you know, playing in was a, what was enough to get to get to the lifetime ban. And now it seems like that's under that's under some, that's under some duress.

So it's going to be interesting. Yeah. So Sean has a story on the athletic that came out today explaining that lawsuit, why it matters, what it's arguing, what could come next, because the impact could be really far reaching all the way down to Canadian University hockey in my little bubble here too. So if you're interested in that a little bit more, you can check that story out on the athletic. Because this week, Sean and I are back to do another edition of NHL buying and selling where we look at if we're buying or selling what teams around the league did this

off season. Last episode, which came out on Tuesday, we looked at the NHL's middle class. So that was the Pittsburgh Penguins, Detroit Red Wings, Minnesota Wild, St. Louis Blues, Philadelphia Flyers, Buffalo Sabres, New Jersey Devils and Calvary Flames. You're interested in one of those eight teams. That episode came out last Tuesday so you could check that out on the athletic hockey show podcast feed. or wherever you get your podcast, that'll be there if you're curious about what we had to say there. But this week, we're going to look at what we're calling the playoff hopefuls tier, which really is just teams who made the playoffs last season and who are looking to stay in the

playoff picture, get back in 2024, 25. We explained this last week as well. We cut the teams up in the league into four different tiers of eight that were really just based off of the standings and the playoffs. results from last season. So this tier that we're looking at today, it's the Toronto Maple Leafs, Washington Capitals, Nashville Predators, Tampa Bay Lightning, L.A. Kings, Winnipeg Jets, New York Islanders, and the Vegas Golden Knights. We don't have a strict set of parameters or like rules for what buying and selling kind of means. I know in the last episode it was really just like, are you buying or

selling what this team did in the off season. I would say, like, think of questions like this as we go through the exercise. I'm talking a lot because Sean was cleaning off his computer webcam. If anyone's wondering why I've been doing a monologue for the last 30 minutes, Sean was very busy doing something and I was trying to just truck along. It was gross to me out. Pizza, pizza dust in the morning on your computer. Neither confirm nor did I.

So think of some. questions like this. And I will pose some questions like this as we go through the exercise to make a little bit more clear. But, you know, did the Tronimate beliefs do enough to get us to buy in on another year of going back to the core? Did the Vegas Golden Knights turn the roster over too much this summer that we're not buying in on the 2024, 25 Golden Knights? Sean, I know you had a kind of easier way to explain it than I did. It's kind of vibe based, right? Yeah. It's like, Do we like the direction that the things are going, basically? Right?

Like, just because we buy what a team, like last week, great example, we bought teams that we don't think are, you know, cup hopefuls, right? That's not the rubric we're basing on it. It's just, but it is like, does it feel like stuff's moving in the right direction or not? And at least that's how I'm operating here. Yeah, I think that's the best way to describe it because I know we had a couple back and forth about, I think the wild and the blues were tough ones because those aren't teams that I particularly love. Although shout out the St. Louis Blues for actually making this the summer of the offer sheet.

I think Laz and Jesse talked about that on the last episode of the podcast, so we don't have to rehash that here. But I guess I'm glad that we were buying on the blues because that's super fun. Thanks a lot for that. And then we had a bit of a debate about the Detroit Red Wings, too, because I think the Red Wings are going to be fine. They're not a bad team, but I didn't love what they did in the off season. Right.

Like, yeah, like I said, we can, we can buy a team without signing off on them as like, oh yeah, this is one of my top three cup contenders. It doesn't, I don't think that's really,

we're grading on a curve, I think is probably the best way to put it. So let us know what you think in the comments after the show too. I think today's episode will be a little bit more straightforward. I think there's some really intriguing. teams that we can go back and forth on. I think the Toronto Maple Leafs are probably one of those. But for the most part, these were playoff teams, and a lot of these teams did pretty well

this offseason. But we'll see as we go through. And I think we're going to start with one team that we've talked about on the show before that had a pretty fun off season. They did a lot more than maybe some people would have expected. Like, I think the Washington Capitals were one of the kind of winners of, you know, free agency in the early days of the summer, right, Sean. So let's start with the caps.

Key additions, Andrew Mangiopani, Pierre-Luc Dubois, Brandon Duhheim, Matt Roy, Jacob Chikrin, and Logan Thompson, their key departures, Max Patreddy, Nick Obey Cubell, Nick Jensen, and Darcy Kemper. I really like what the Washington Capitals did. I don't know if they're going to be world beaters, but in terms of do we like the direction of this team. The way we talked about the Caps last season, you, me, and Max, was so up and down of like, oh, yeah, they're toast. Oh, actually, maybe they're back. Oh, no, they're terrible. They should blow this up and rebuild and let OVie just try to score goals for the next eight years. And I can really appreciate the fact that they went out and tried to make meaningful improvements to this roster.

What do you think? Are you buying what they're selling? Because I think I am. I think they're like a great example of how we're trying to structure this, right? Like I don't think the caps are a contender. I don't think they're particularly close. But I think if you look at what they're trying to accomplish and the raw material that they're working with, I don't think it could have gone that much better. Like I like full, like this is still, man, let's say that. say that they're in the middle of the third tier, right? If that's what we want to do. I think like

Dom's projections has them somewhere in the late teens probably. And I can I can get down with that. I think it's very possible that this doesn't work. But I respect the effort because the only thing they can do is try to be a competitive and try to ice something that's worth watching while ever we get the Ovechkin goal chase, right? Because that's that's the primary that whether whether people are like say it outright, whether they're being honest or not. That's what this team is about for the next two, possibly three seasons. In the meantime, they've managed to surround him with pieces that are at least going to make it A, easier on him. Right?

You add someone like Pierlouc Dubois or Andrew Maggi Apenni. Those are like, those are power play pieces potentially. You know, you make things easier on Alex Ovechkin. But you also just at least try. to make that bizarre, unrepeatable season they had last year stand up and try to run it back again, make it in the playoffs, see what happens. Does Charlie Lindgren get hot at the right time? Maybe Logan's like, whatever. Like, I think, I think their hands were tied in a lot of ways, but they still added some interesting pieces. And I think they're in a better spot now than they were last year.

I like them more now than I did last season. Well, the Washington Capitals made the playoffs last year with a minus. 37 goal differential. And when we look back to the kind of end of the regular season last year, right, it was the conversation was like, does anyone in the East actually want to make the playoffs? You know, that was the situation in which the Caps made the postseason last year.

It was because penguins couldn't win. Sabres made a little bit of a push at the end, but that fell flat, right? So Caps ended up making the playoffs with, you know, one of the worst goal differentials in the Eastern Conference, but they add some top six skill, Mangiopani, Pierre-Luc Dubois. It'll be interesting to see how that works out in terms of Dubois.

And decent upgrades on the blue line too. Like it's not a dynamic lineup. But if they make the playoffs this year, it's not going to be because everyone else in the East sucks and they kind of fell backwards. Like I said, because they made meaningful improvement. to this roster and actually tried,

which again, I think we both appreciate. So I'll buy on the Washington Capitals. And it's not because I think they're going to be, you know, a cup contender. It's just because I like what they did. I'm not saying this is going to work either. I just appreciate the effort. And I think that's generally true where, you know,

in a league where so many teams have to make the choice between, tearing down or staying in the mushy middle or whatever, they did as much as they could to elevate themselves by adding the players they did. I don't think it's going to work, but hey, man, there's honor in the chase. So let's go to the Toronto Maple Leafs next, Sean, because they're in the news this week, John Tavares officially passed the captain's seat to Austin Matthews on Wednesday afternoon at a press conference where Matthews was introduced as the 26th captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs.

is one of the big changes from last year to this season, Sean Pop Quiz. What are the three Cs of the Leafs off season? You went over this. Captaincy? Yeah. Coach. Yeah. Because Craig Baruby's in. Sheldon keeps out. And Chris Tanov. That's right. That's all you need to know about the Leafs off season, in my opinion. That's definitely all anybody wants you to talk about. You know, maybe don't talk. Maybe don't about the rest of the roster or the rest of the things that they didn't do or tried to do and couldn't or whatever. Like, those are the three top line items and those are the three biggest reasons to be, uh, to be in on them. I'll tell you, Mitch Marner himself does not want to talk about his contract and trade and his future in Toronto. He was asked and he said, no, I'm not going to do that.

I appreciate Mitch doing that. I appreciate Mitch saying that. I hope he sticks to that throughout the entirety of the season. And maybe we won't have to talk about it that much. I hope everyone just takes, takes their cues from Mitch and just, you know, just let's,

let's that sleeping dog lie. Yeah. Let's talk about the leaves as little as possible. Let's talk about that next year. I, in terms of buying or selling, I think I've been pretty torn about how I feel about the leaves.

And maybe that's because I have to like listen to my dad, talk about it from the fandom side of things. That always ends up doing things, right? But last year, my biggest problem with the Maple Leafs heading into the season on paper was their goaltending and their blue line. I thought that blue line was not good and that ended up being true. That that was a huge issue for the Leafs last season. And obviously the goaltending was a problem.

It was really inconsistent last year. And so when I look at the improvements they made, while it may not have been the big blowup of the core, trade Mitch Marner. Realistically, it's going be very hard to win a Mitch Marner trade. I know that sounds so like it's such a cop-out to say, well, don't trade Mitch because you're going to be worse off. Like, it's probably true. I know the changes for the Leafs roster didn't look

the way that some fans wanted. But when I think of what their biggest issues were for me last season, I do think they did well to address them, even if these changes don't look as far-reaching and sweeping as people hoped. I think Chris Tanev, if we still have to see what these guys look like. That's the problem.

I've been a big Chris Tannav truther, but we'll see how he looks next season if he starts aging out or what have you. But I think adding Chris Tanov and Oliver Ekman-Larsen are big improvements to the blue line, at least when we're looking at what they had last season. I think the blue line depth chart

is probably the strongest this core has had before when we're talking about the forward group, right? This is the best the blue lines looked on paper heading into a season. And I think stole our is a nice little upgrade to the goalie depth chart over Ilya Sampsonov, who just couldn't figure it out consistently or be trusted to be the guy, right? So I actually, the more I think about it, while again, it's disappointing they didn't make the big,

big change here. I actually don't hate what the Leafs did. I think they probably still need a top six or top nine forward to replace Tyler Bertuzi, but I actually like that Broad Tree Living used the cap space to look at and fix the blue line because it was a disaster last year. So I'm buying on the leaves this year. Call me a fan, but I'm buying. You're a fan. What do you think?

Do you disagree? I bought the leaves last year, I think, and I feel foolish for it. Stolars is Stolars is interesting I think in Stolars and a wall they have like two really good one Bs it seems like

and two guys who also kind of can't stay healthy like that's been an issue for Stolars in the past like when he gets major workloads is his uh I don't know feel like physically whatever it seems like

he's not a guy who I think you can pencil in to start 40 games or 45 games and I don't think well is a place that is a guy who you can pencil on to start 40 or 45 games. So I, there's like this catastrophe situation for them where both of those guys get hurt at the same time again.

And then then the, then the goaltender question pops up again. And I, I think they're a little bit more. But they have Matt Murray still. Yeah, right. No,

that's right. That's right. Workhorse Matt Murray. Another guy who's not capable of starting a 40 games to, to put it, to put it lightly. I don't know. I'm on the fence with them.

And I know we joke about it. I don't I don't hate their makeup as much as it seems like I do at times. Yeah. Do I think that things are trending in the right direction for them is the question that I keep coming back to? Do I think they're in a better spot now than they were last year? And I'll go with yes, but just barely, just barely. Like I think the goal-tending upgrades will help. I think the defensive upgrades will help at least,

at least for this season. But it's a soft, soft, soft buy. Because if the question you, if the question you ask is like, are things going in the right direction? I'm, boy,

they're, it's so neutral for me. And I'll, I'll be charitable and say it and say that they're trending up. But this is a soft buy on the Maple East. Yeah. Yeah. You'll soft buy and then,

sell once they win in the first round because you don't think they'll be able to win in the second I think obviously something like that I don't love their forward group outside of the core four right that's always where things get a little bit dicey when you're talking about the Leafs right I mean I do really like Matthew Nyes like they've got good pieces at forward but then there's you know the David Camp deal still looks bad and Ryan Reeves still has term and Nick Robertson hasn't really shown he can be a top six producer in the NHL yet. So there's like enough question marks with the Leafs that make you think like it's a fundamental issue with them. And that more than anything over the last couple of years has been like who scores goals besides the big boys?

And I don't, I think they, I think you could easily argue that they're in a worse spot with that this year than last. it's just the other stuff is enough to kind of push it in the right direction. But again, just minimally for me. So, yeah, I'm buying on the Leafs. We'll see how it goes. Sean's a soft buy on the Leafs. We both bought on the Washington Capitals. I think we'll take a quick break here.

And when we come back, we'll take a look at the impact of Stephen Stamcoast leaving Tampa Bay, heading to Broadway, how we feel about each team in the aftermath of, you know, one of the biggest headlines of the summer. Coming up next on the Athletic Coffee Show. Sean, I don't know if you've heard, but the Tampa Bay Lightning got Jake Gensel this summer.

But they lost Stephen Stamco's in the process. That feels like it happened six months ago. I know. I feel like we were talking about Jake Gensel for three years. We probably were because this is a Penguins podcast more times than not. Yeah, Tampa Bay Lightning get Jake Gensel. Stephen Stamcoast. They also traded for Ryan McDunna. Mikhail Surgachev goes to the Utah hockey club. And I think that's kind of the Tampa Bay offseason in a nutshell, right? Like there's a few other moves, right? Anthony Duclair, Tanner, Janow, Matt Dunba also depart.

But the big two things you need to know is you go Jake Gensel and Ryan McDonez, in Stephen Stamcoast, Mikhail Surgichov out. I think when a lot of people have been talking about Tampa, there's been a lot of of emotion around losing the captain and losing Stephen Stamcoast, but when you just look at the roster and you just look at the Tampa Bay Lightning heading into 2024, 25, Sean, do you think they are better now than they were last year? No. I think they're trending in the wrong direction. I do. And that's that's regardless of the upgrade, like, because cancel over Stamcoast, like, in plenty of ways is on paper. It's, it's an upgrade. I'm worried about Vasilevsky.

Okay. For one. It was important that they added Ryan McDonough for sure because that defense was kind of a mess last year. And also it was out of whack with the left-handed and right-handedness. He makes their group make a lot more sense. I don't like their middle six. I don't like their forward group. That was a huge issue for them last year.

year they need some of these guys to step up and it can't just be now we're not look we're not talking about kutrov or braden point or like brandon hagel who was phenomenal last year against whole like they have they have the top the top layer of players but i think in terms of generating goals from down the lineup they're not they're not what they were even after all the shuffling even after julian breisboisbois moves the tanner genoa contract which was you know good on him for recognizing a mistake, right? Like, I don't like the way things are tracking for them as, as a Stanley Cup contender.

And that's the way we've been conditioned to think about them for the last, however, for the last close to 10 years at this point is that this team, their stated goal with every move, every season, every decision that they make is to put themselves in a better position to win a Stanley Cup. And we saw that from Julian Breed, like he made some cutthroat, difficult decisions this offseason, clearly. I just don't think that, I don't think that things are moving in the right direction

because they're not on track to adequately replace Kuturov and point in those guys as they get a little bit older. I just, I don't, I don't like the way things are moving in that, in that direction for them. I guess the big thing that sticks out to me about Tampa is you, they kind of, they almost contradicted themselves

with some of the things that they did, right? You go for Jake Gensel over Stephen Stamcoast because he's the younger model and he is a better five-on-five player at this point in his career, but then you ditch Mikhail Surgachev and re-sign Victor Hedman for the same deal that Stamcoast ended up signing in Nashville.

I understand they're different players. It's different positions, and I understand what Victor Hedman's meant to, the Tampa Bay Lightning as well, but they kind of went younger, they went with the younger piece on Stamcoast and then kept headman over Sergachev. And maybe it's because headman is significantly better than Sergachev, but that was the one thing that kind of stood out to me is they're going, no, we're, we're going to use our money on Jake, not our captain, but we'll keep. I mean, where it makes sense to me is like, they're like, we can keep, we can lock up one of the old guys

until they're 40 or whatever. Yeah. We won, emphasis on one. Sure. And then they choose admin, right? Like, that's kind of, that's kind of what it boils down to. Yeah. Which, like, I get it to some extent, but I just don't, I don't think, I don't think they

have the dudes. I don't think they have the depth that you need to really be a contender, particularly in the Eastern Conference and particularly in the Atlantic Division. So you're selling on the Tampa Bay Lightning. Yep. I'm still quite torn on them. By the way, that's not me saying that like Victor Hedman shouldn't have been re-signed. I just thought that those moves were.

Yeah, why do you hate Victor Hedman? I don't. I just thought that it was interesting that they were like, no, on Stamcoast, but yep, on Hedman. Sean's a seller on the Tampa Bay Lightning. I don't think they did enough for me to buy on them. And because we're not allowed to stand pat, I suppose I'll sell. I think I came into this.

hoping to be swayed in either direction by you because I think I was coming in thinking like, well, I'm going to sell because they got rid of Stephen Stamcoast and that's so rude. But also Jake Gensel is an upgrade. So that's the part that that gets me all kind of confused. And headman is still an effective defender. And I don't have too many concerns about Vasilevsky at this point in time. So that's what makes me torn on the Tampa Bay Lightning is I do think they have some guys. But to your point, it's do they have enough guys around them is the issue?

Anthony Sorrelli, Cam Atkinson, Connor Sherry, Nick Paul. Braiden Point. Mikey Ace, Mike Ys, like a fourth line. Don't forget about Braden Point. Yeah, I'm not forgetting about Braden Point. I'm saying these are their, these are their second, third, and fourth liners. that's not a contending lineup of forwards for me. It just isn't.

That doesn't mean. I think they're bad players, but like you're rolling, you're rolling out Cam Atkinson and in a top six with, on a line, on a line with Anthony Sorrelli and thinking that that's, you know, that that's enough to win a Stanley Cup right now.

In context with the rest of the league and some of these other lineups that we've seen, it just doesn't do it for me. I don't know. I think we're also maybe under. rating a team that has a guy who had like how many points did Kutrov have last season like 125

yeah he's he's amazing and they just added Jake Gensel like their top line is going to be unreal it was unreal last year and they lost in the first round in five games right six games in look

man if if Andre Vasillesi comes back and he's healthy and he's himself and he puts up a 922 over the course of the regular. Like, whatever. I'm, this is going to look stupid,

right? But, but if, if that's, if that doesn't happen, I think they're in trouble. I don't know if, if,

if they're going to generate enough goals. Sorry, apologies. Kutrov had 144 points last season. What did you say? 125. Oh, oh,

I overshot it by 20. I undershot it by 20. My apologies. God, Tampa, like, if there's Tampa fans who listen to this podcast,

they, oh, they must hate me. I'm going to get many hateful comments this week. I'll buy on the lightning because I like Jake Gensel. Who cares? I'll buy. I'll buy. Late pivot. I've decided I disagree with you, Sean.

I'm buying on the Tampa Bay Lightning. But if they lose in the first round, then I'm selling hard. I'm done. I'm out. You're not allowed to sell stock after a playoff crash out. I'll sell for next season. Okay, let's move on to the team that got Stephen Stampcoast, the Nashville Predators.

I think Nashville's a pretty easy buy for me. They add two proven top six forwards in Stamcoast and Jonathan Marches-O in the offseason. Brady-Shay is a nice ad on the blue line. They're not going to be world beaters. I don't think the Preds are going to be, you know, marching to the Western Conference final based on the other teams who are in the West, right? But I do think Barry Trott. did enough to keep his team as a playoff team.

Like, right? We're looking at playoff hopefuls, right? Who wants to stick? Who wants to have staying power? I think they did enough to do that. And I think this team kind of stays in a tier above the St. Louis, Minnesota, Calgary, Seattle's of the West and others who are trying to push for the playoffs. And obviously, they still have UC Soros and Ryan O'Reilly.

So what do you think? Are you buying or sell? on the Nashville Predators this season. I think they're a soft buy for me just because I think just because the Barry Trots GM era has been so entertaining. Like I appreciate the action. I appreciate the dedication to, you know,

at least try and stuff. It's just similar to what I said about the caps. I, I, I, it's not a one to one comparison, but I think, I think it's similar logic where look,

man, do I like the Preds as a cup contender? No, but I, I appreciate, you know, the the audacity of going out and getting Stephen Stamcoast and signing Jonathan Marchesot and whatever else. I think they have fundamental problems. The center depth is still not very good.

Good as Ryan O'Reilly was last year, major bounce back year for him. I just, I don't, if, if stamp, especially if Stamco's certainly seems like he's going to be on the wing, the down the middle group, you know, it's, it's Ryan O'Reilly, it's Tommy Novak, it's Colton Cizons. Like, this is not, that's not a, that's not a true contender. But also, I like, I like, I like that they went out and got those guys. Yeah. I think it's pretty simple for me. I think they, I think Barry Trots had another fun summer and I'm buying, I'm buying on

Barry Trots, GM era. Hot Barry Trott's summer? Is there you're saying? Hot, Barry. I think it's hot Brian McClellan summer. I think I tweeted that a few months ago and was like, that's just like so weird. I don't know why I said that. just imagine Brian McLeodin reading that tweet or Barry Trots reading the tweet.

Being like, what does this mean? What are they saying? I don't understand these Gen Z. I have like, I have like, uh, I have a mental image of, of Trots. Like, look me down on his phone. Like turning his head, you know, like a like a golden retriever when the, when the, when the microwave dings or something. Yeah.

Asking a nearby teen. What does this mean? Tell me. I don't get it. Um, all right. So soft buying for you on Nashville buying on for me. I also have just realized, because we're going to talk about Winnipeg later in the show. I'm, I'm wondering if Tampa's going to be the team that I randomly say like, no, no, they're good. And then two games into the playoffs, I'm like, ooh, ooh, ooh, maybe you guys were right. Because that was me with the Jets last year. Are we having the Jets conversation? We're having the Jets conversation later in the show. But you know what? Actually, let's do it right now because I feel like I just made a natural segue and was about to leave it in the dust.

Many a fight was had about the Winnipeg Jets on the athletic hockey show last season. I thought they had, I thought they had great depth, especially at the deadline. You add Tyler To Foley, Sean Monaghan. They lose in the first round in five games to the Colorado Avalanche. to Foley and Monahan Walk. Brendan Dillon and Nate Schmidt are gone on the blue line as well. Kapo Kockinen has replaced Laurent

Foswa as the backup. Is Connor Hellebuck enough to make you like the Winnipeg Jets next season, Sean? Regular season, Connor Hellabuck might be. Do we have to have a conversation about playoff Connor Hellabuck? That's maybe another talk for another day, But he was very, very ordinary.

My man got outdoled by Alexander Yorgiev, right? That's not a great sign. Yeah. But also everyone was very, you even wrote the story about like the playoffs are the great time to, you know, prove the haters wrong. All the haters said Georgiev couldn't do it. And they were wrong in the first round. Yeah. They were wrong.

Then they were right in the second round. Oh, man. The Jets, I still just, again, like, where do the goals come from? Yeah. I'm selling on the Winnipeg Jets. They hurt me deeply last year. They made me look very dumb. You look foolish.

They're not going to do this to me again. It made everybody look dumb. At various points there at the regular season, all of us were like, okay. Yeah. This seems like it's going to work. when they come out and late late. I was calling you and Dom out on a consistent basis. Yeah.

Why does Dom Luchin, my God. Wow. I haven't had to speak Dom's name in ages. We don't speak anymore. Why does Dom Lus Chishin hate the best team in the Western Conference question mark? It's a conversation that's happened the last couple years where they've had these stretches where it's like, oh, why does everybody.

hate the Jets and then you see proof positive of why nobody hates the Jets. We just don't like him as a true cup contender. Yeah, I just don't. They're not. The whole thing is

is just not for me. They're listed two seed still on August on August 15th is Nemesnikov. Really? Tough. Yeah, and I think if you look at

the defense drop off too, going from Brendan, Dylan, and Nate Schmidt to Logan Stanley and Colin Miller is not great. They've got pieces in every spot,

but I just don't. I think we saw the best of them last season. It's tough to imagine them being able to follow that up. I think this is a weaker team than the one that lost in five games last year in the first round of the playoffs.

And to really keep it simple, I'm selling on that. I'm not interested in a weaker version of the team that got beat pretty, pretty easily other than one game in the first round. Mind you, of course, it's to Colorado, but I'm out on the Jets for this season. Connor Hullochukes should be able to beat Alexander Georgiev in a playoff series. He didn't. When you have that guy and you pay him that much money and his rep is what it is, should be able to beat Alexander Georgiev. He couldn't.

I guess also to be fair, they're both facing completely different shooters. You know. Yeah, but, but Hellibus numbers in that series across the board were rough. There's, there's no way around it. Like you, whether you cut, save percentage, goal saved above expected, however you want to cut it, he was not good. And when that guy makes up that percentage of your, of your, of your, of your, of your, of your, of your payroll, like, you need him to be better whenever, whenever, whenever. the spring rolls around and he wasn't and he's and he's got a couple of those on on his record right now.

It's not it's not fair but playoff performance is how we judge a lot of these guys and it's how we certainly how we judge Vezina winning elite goaltenders. If they're played noticeably ticks down in the postseason and their team loses a series arguably because of them like there's going to be there's going to be blowback. Connor Hallibuck needs to win a playoff series. But how many times have we had the conversation in the postseason of like, hey, maybe we should stop just picking the goalie that we think is best in this playoff series and look at the overall roster and team that they're up again? How many times have we been like dead wrong just because it's like, oh, well, I'm going to pick, you know, Jake Ottinger or UC Soros or Connor Hellebuck and then end up being like, oh, shoot. Totally. I mean, I picked Colorado to win that series because I like their team overall. And I picked them to win because I thought that they had improved their depth enough and that they had the big guns at the top of the lineup necessary to win.

I did not pick them to win the series because I thought Connor Hellebuck was going to go out and put up an 87% in five games. That's fair. Like, he was bad. Yeah. They lost for a reason that I didn't think they were going to lose. Sure. I thought that was going to be a way more competitive and fun season. I remember us teeing that up as like, I'm really excited to see this one because the Jets have looked great and they look much improved and so are the abs. And it was a bit of a stinker other than one game. So either way, we're both selling on the Jets. I'm sorry, Jets fans. I was with you last year. And now I'm not. Connor Hallibuck, Conor, Hanelbuck minus 6.47 goals saved a lot of expected in that series.

That's brutal. It's not good. You don't, he's already dead, Sean, it's fine. You don't, stop it,

stop it. I wanted to throw that last one. Yeah. Stop it, stop it. He's already dead. I had to make it very clear that I was making a joke there

because I didn't want to get weird. It's the Simpsons. It was a Simpsons. Okay, let's go very quickly here before we take a break, staying with the West, the L.A. Kings.

They cut bait on Pierre's, Luke Dubois in that June trade with Washington to get Darcy Kemper as a potential upgrade and goal over Camp Talbot. Victor Arvinson goes to Edmonton. They signed Warren Fogel and traded for Tanner-Jonaut. This is a pretty cut and dry one for me and maybe I'm being a little bit unfair to the Kings because there's a reason you play the games and I'm just kind of ignoring 82 games and I'm kind of ignoring the rest of their roster. But to me, over the last three years, the Edmonton Oilers have shown that there is a huge gap between Edmonton and L.A. And if we assume they're on another collision course, because it seems they play each other

every year in the first round, I don't believe the L.A. Kings have done enough to win a playoff series against the Oilers. Like, letting Arvidson go to the Oilers and basically swapping with the Oilers, Arvidson and Warren Fogel and bringing in Tanner Genoa, who didn't work out in Tampa, like that trade was a disaster for them by a lot of metrics. I'm selling on the L.A. Kings. And again, maybe that's unfair because I'm not even looking up and down their lineup at what they have and what internal upgrades or improvements. Like maybe Quentin Byfields can be really great next year and I'm going to sound really dumb.

But I just don't think I don't think the Kings are going to have it with the team that they keep having to play against and the conference that they're in. Is that stupid and just like I don't think it is at all. I like I like them more or last season, even though. everybody like anybody who'd paid attention i think knew that they're that the dubois thing was a little it had disaster potential right like that's a that's a lot of there's a lot of money you're gambling on a on a certain fit um but yeah i haven't having to having to cut bay with him is just is just brutal you get back darcy kemper who's on the downside right i mean that it's answers the goaltending question somewhat, but not, but not completely.

I think now you have a similar, like, the one good thing for them is that Quentin Byfield was fantastic last year. Right. And if he can port that over to playing center, which seems like is the plan for him this year, then you have Copatar Byfield and De No in some, in some combination. Like, I don't mind that, but they're not good enough. They're not, they're not good enough to beat the Oilers specifically. and they probably are worse than they were last year.

Because, like, Copatar's not going to be able to keep it together forever. Drew Daddy was fantastic last year. Can he follow that up? I don't think things are going in the right direction for them. And for Mo, like, Copatar is great. Like, this really isn't a, this isn't a, saying that he's not a Copsic center. But in 2020, but in 2020,

you haven't found another one C. Like he should be your lights out veteran 2C who comes in and eats tough minutes. But like Copatar being your number one center in 2024 probably means that you haven't been able to find that either by free agency, the draft or trade. I think the plan would be for Quentin Bifield to be that guy eventually. And maybe he can do that this year and they end up, you know, however they get to. deployed, but it's not great, even though Copa tar's awesome. But like, there's forward, I'm looking at Eric Stevens had a really great roster projection. In one of the forward lineups, Warren Fogel is the number one left winger.

That's scary. That's not good. Losing Victor Robertson is relevant, man. He's like, he, he has, he's not, uh, not, he's not the most consistently available player, right? He gets hurt, he gets hurt a lot. But yeah, there's. I don't like the way things are tracking for them.

I really like that third line. I like the De No more Kaliev kind of combo. I really like Trevor Moore. I like Kopitar. I like Byfield Fiala. I really like Adrian Kempe. This is why I feel, I said it was cut and dry,

but Drew Dowdy, there's things to like in L.A. But for me, when it comes down to it, like is this team going in the right direction? are they going to beat the Oilers in the first round? No. No.

The only little asterisk is, like I said, if Byfield hits another level and turns into like a top 15, whatever, a top 15 one C in the league, like, you know, maybe if you squint, you can see it. I just, I'm not willing to bet on that happening right now. Yeah. It's a big ask. It's tough to be that good. Not that many guys are that good.

Yeah. I think that, yeah, to me, the way to look at the Kings is have they changed enough to alter their three-year run of early playoff exits? Probably not. Probably not. Like, I think, because I think even if it's status quo, they make the playoffs and they lose in the first round, that's still not enough at this point in time. For what Rob Blake has been building with this team. So, for me, I'm selling on the L.A. Kings. Let's take a quick break.

And when we come back, we have two more teams left. We've got the New York Islanders and the Vegas Golden Knights. I've kept the Vegas Golden Knights in the last section. So people listen in until the end. It's a podcast, sneaky trickery. We'll be right back on the Athletic Hockey Show. And before we get back to our NHL buying and selling, I just want to tell everyone to check out all the great content we're producing

across the Athletic Podcast Network, right now. The Premier League is back this weekend with the Athletic FC podcast that has you covered all week long getting you ready for match day one. Can Man United find some calm after their years of chaos? Is this the season Arsenal and Man City's dominance? Have the Spurs finally found a replacement for Harry Kane? You can follow the show wherever you get your podcast and try to get some answers to those questions. We are back for the final segment of our NHL buying and selling. We're looking at playoff hopefuls this week. And the final two teams here are the Vegas

Golden Knights and the New York Islanders. Sean, let's start with the Vegas Golden Knights. A lot of turnover this summer, which I think was to be expected. And in some cases were some good moves, right? Like, subtraction is not always a terrible thing when you

look at the broader context of it. But some big names are gone in Vegas. Jonathan Marchesot is the big one. Chandler Stevenson, William Carrier, Michael Amadio. and Logan Thompson. They add Alexander Holtz, Victor Oliveson,

and Ilya Samsonov. Those are kind of the key subtractions and additions to the Vegas roster this season. What do you think? I think they're an interesting team to discuss. I think they're always kind of a hot button team, right? I think they're a sell for me right now. Yeah.

But it's right now. We know that it's corn, corny and cliche to say like always got to be ready for the Vegas golden nights like who knows what comes next they're always willing to do anything but it's true like it's so who knows what the seam looks like in January or March or May all right but as it stands right now I don't I don't like it and I don't like it because of the wingers yeah Victor Oliveson is projected to be Jack Eichel's right wing. Like, Olson at times was it was a pretty good power play weapon for the sabers.

Like other than that, Avoldorafyev penciling Brennan Brissonne for third line minutes, Alexander Holtz, right? Like, there's a lot of bald spots on that, on that lineup along the wings. And I think when you look at a team that's lost, what it's lost, whether it's March or so,

or whatever, some of the, some of the attrition on the, on the wings there over the last couple years. I think it's starting to catch up with them. Now, that's not to say that the roster in totality isn't impressive because it is. Yeah. You got Eichol, you got hurdle. You got William Carlson who's still a really, who's still a really good third line center. The defense is, you know, probably the best in the league still. But yeah, I don't think, I don't like the way things are tracking.

They're going to need a Kelly McCriman special to make me feel better about them as like a high-end top shelf cup contender, which is obviously how we become accustomed to thinking about them. The blue line is a reason. And we're not allowed to stand pat. You have to buy or sell, right? But I think the Golden Knights Blue Line would be a reason to either buy and like hope that it's a smart buy knowing that Kelly McCriman is going to do his thing eventually. eventually, whether it's at the deadline or sneaky right before the season, you know, because that blue line is pretty much unchanged with the exception of Alec Martinez signing a one-year deal with the Blackhawks. You've still got Hannafin, Petrangelo, Shea, Theodore, McNabb.

So there's things to like, as you said, with Vegas. But, and I think to give them some credit in terms of the turnover, you can't give chance. Stevenson the deal he signed in Seattle. Like as much as it sucks to look at this roster and say, ooh, it's, it's not as deep because they've lost X, Y, Z.

And some reasons that subtraction makes sense. Like, you don't give Chandler Stevenson seven years, 43.75 million. Right. You like Chandler Stevenson on your, you like Chandler Stevenson on your team, but you don't like them at that price.

Yeah. But I think to your point, Sean, Marcha-so is the really big loss, not just because, you know, he's an original guy and he's their franchise leader in points and goals. I know he's their franchise points leader. That's a really, really tough loss when you don't have a backup plan for Jonathan Marcheau on the wing, save for hoping that Oliveson can score 20 goals again like he did in 2019, 20 when he played with Eichl on the Sabres.

Like that's not an adequate, that's not an adequate backup plan for losing Jonathan Marchesau for literally nothing. thing. You know, Mark Stone and Ivan Barbashev are the only proven NHL contributors on the wings. Save for Oliveson, sure, but he had seven goals, I think, last season. So can we really call him that in 2024? So there's a flyer on Oliveson. You're hoping that Alexander Holtz can take a step. You're hoping that Oloffson can get quick chemistry with Jack Eichel again.

So for that, like their forward group, I think I'm with you. I think I sell right now on the Vegas Golden Knights because this isn't the team that won the cup anymore. This isn't even as good as the team that lost in the playoffs last year. So I think I sell on the Vegas Golden Knights with the understanding that this probably doesn't prove. William Carrey is the other big loss from that group of winners. He's one of the best, truly, one of the best defensive wingers in the league. So he exits without any real replacement either. So those are two guys who fill really important roles.

March Sos is one of the, whatever, great clutch scorers really of the recent era. And Carier is like a third line menace who you can throw out there against anybody. And they didn't adequately replace them. So I don't know how you look at that and say anything other than they're trending in the wrong direction at the moment at least. Yeah. They still have Mark Stone. They have good center depth.

They've got a great blue line. And there's still time between now and the start of the season for the Golden Knights to do something. But there's also the possibility that this is a step back reload year and maybe make the playoffs lose in the first round and be better in 2025. They're an interesting team because we don't really know what they're going to do between now and then. But for now, I'm a soft sell on the Vegas. Golden Nights. Final team, it's the New York Islanders. I didn't put them last because I'm not trying to slight anybody.

I just, this is just how I wrote it. I'm sorry, don't yell at me. Apologizing for imaginary reasons. People yell at me. Apologizing for something that people aren't going to be mad at you for. I think they're going to be mad. I think they're going to read into why they're the last team. I think we've saved the best for last, Sean, in my opinion.

These are the big moves of the off season. Cal, Clutterbuck, and Matt Martin out, Anthony Duclair in. Honestly, I buy on the Islanders based on those little moves. I think that this is, you know, that fourth line hadn't been working. This is addition by subtraction. I think they have improved the roster just enough. Like, these are big moves for Lou. I feel like we've had for years been like so.

They didn't do anything. The Islanders are the exact same again. They changed the fourth lineup. They add Anthony Duclair, who's like a legitimate top six skill guy, right? I like it. I think the Islanders have been a playoff team. They have staying power.

I think they've done enough to continue to be a playoff team. So I buy on the Islanders. It's not simple for me. I think they're probably going to be better than they were last season. for a couple reasons. Number one is that I don't think Ilyos Serochin is going, like he took a step back last year and I don't think that's going to continue.

I think if, so if you believe that he's, you know, an elite goaltender in this league and that he can get back to that level after taking a little bit of a break last year, because again, 909, say a percentage, he lost his net down the stretch to Semyon Varlamov for the,

for the, for the playoff series for the most part, at least at the start of it. I don't anticipate more of that from him. I think he's going to bounce back to the, you know, Vezina caliber guy that we'd seen at least the year before. So if you're of that mindset, that Ilya Seroquen is going to be himself again,

that they did add a legitimate, I'll say, 20, 25 goal capable guy in Anthony Duclair, who's got speed and skill in something that they'd lacked, frankly, in the top, in the top six or top nine there. I like what they did. I think they're going to be better. I think that they're certainly a reasonable pick to make the playoffs coming out of the Metro division. I think they improved as certainly enough to keep their grip on that spot.

They're still just, you know, there's still something missing there for me. Yeah. And their long-term outlook cap-wise is just, I don't, I don't love that either. But ultimately, you know, they're a pretty good team that seems like it should be better. So I think that to me is a buy. Yeah. I think, and I just saw this from our pal Dom, who people say hates the Islanders, they're a plus 120 to make the playoffs this year.

Like since we're talking about buying and selling, right? Like one of the lines at the moment is plus 120 to make the playoffs. And Dom is saying that's like pretty good value. the islanders like are pretty underrated right now. So I do think when we're talking about buying and selling if we're buying and selling stocks, like I do think it's a good time to buy on the New York Islanders because I think they're the team that people don't really talk about because they're not making big splashy moves. But for the reasons you said, Sean, I do think they're going to be better next season.

And that's, like if that's, I've been wishy-washy and having internal struggle and debate like for an hour now, but the Islanders are the one team more. I can just say, yeah, I'm buying on that. Yeah. Pretty easy for me. Easy. Yeah. There was a little bit of news while we were talking, by the way, as we were discussing,

we talked about the Washington Capitals in the first segment. This just came out about a half an hour ago. Jacob Branagh is joining the team for training camp on a PTO. So just a little bit of news to add into the Washington Capitals offseason. I believe that just completes the Mantha Trade Circle. fully yes it's a it's a full it's a full circle yeah and we'll see we'll see what we'll see what we'll see what we'll see what we'll see what brown ass offer and i think that i think that makes sense he's he's a guy who's you know provided offense at various points over the course of his career and i think i think

he makes sense to add that's exactly what we're talking about to bring it to complete the circle on the on on on this on this episode you know you improve where you can i i think and i think it's tough for them in a lot of ways, but they can roll the dice on guys and see what happens. I like it. Yeah. All right. There we go. That was, I like doing this exercise. There's two other groups of teams that we can revisit. Maybe Max will join us eventually if he ever gets internet. Or once he's done watching his Shrek marathon, he's, he's preparing for Shrek 5. That's just been announced. It doesn't exist, right? Didn't they just announce Shrek 5 or was that Shrek 4? I believe there has been a Shrek 4.

Right. So Shrek 5 is coming out. There was a big announcement. It was a really big day for me. Congratulations on all your success. Yeah, I'm really happy. Jeff did say that if anybody cares, Max watched Easy A in the Dark Night. I hope those are like the only two DVDs he has. A Dane Cook comedy special. displays them proudly on his TV table.

All right. Well, thanks everyone for listening to the Athletic Hockey Show. Mark Lazarus and Jesse Granger have the next episode that's coming on Tuesday on the Athletic Podcast Network. We'll be back eventually.