The Athletic Hockey Show - Arizona Coyotes lose arena vote, NHL's Final Four will entertain despite the absence of a big market team, and Doug MacLean on the playoffs, drafting, and life after the NHL

Episode Date: May 17, 2023

This week on the roundtable, Rob, Jesse and Russo are joined by the one and only Doug MacLean, the former bench boss of the Florida Panthers from back in 1996 when the Cats last made the final four. Doug looks back on that magical time, and gives his analysis on what he has seen in this years playoffs, including huge upsets and surprises, like Gerard Gallant losing his job with the Rangers, and Toronto, Edmonton and Boston failing to make some noise. Plus Mac promotes his very first book: Draft Day: How hockey teams pick winners, or get left behind.The roundtable tackles the final four between the Stars and Golden Knights and the Panthers vs the Hurricanes which begins Thursday and Friday. The Calgary Flames seemingly blocking Brad Treliving from interviewing for GM jobs until June 30, a rumoured return for Mike Babcock or Peter Laviolette behind the bench in Columbus and the Coyotes proposed arena project in Tempe defeated by public vote last night in Arizona.Subscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowGet a 1-year subscription to The Athletic for $2 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is The Athletic Hockey Show. What's up, everybody? Welcome to another fine edition of the Athletic Hockey Show, the Wednesday Roundtable Edition. I am Rob Pizzo from CBC Sports, joined as always by my two co-hosts who are both in the same city. For rarity, Jesse Granger in Vegas,

Mike Russo in Vegas. How are we, boys? Doing well. How are you guys? Why aren't you in the same room? Why aren't you guys like just get somewhere? Go to a bar or something, bring the microphone so you can, actually look across a table and see each other.

I feel like Russo's probably been in Vegas more than I have the last couple weeks. I have been back and forth to Canada quite a bit. Yeah, no doubt. And also, Jesse's house doesn't have Marriott points. So that's one reason why I'm not staying there. No free breakfast in the morning either. Yeah, exactly. You don't have a continental breakfast at Casa Granger, like, you know, some muffins or something

that to keep your guests nice and fed. No, but it's good that you're both there. both obviously busy because, yeah, we're down to four teams in the Stanley Cup playoffs, Florida and Carolina in the East, Dallas and Vegas in the West. And yes, of course we're going to break down what we think of both those series. We're going to talk about some teams that are licking their wounds on the outside looking in. Yeah, Toronto, we're looking at you. Yeah, Edmonton, we're looking at you. But we do have some news that is very, very new and relatively huge. And it deals with the Arizona coyotes guys. We talked about.

about the $2.1 billion project that they were proposing. We talked about when it first, you know, came out. And it all really came down to the vote. And it looks as though the future of the Arizona Coyotes, specifically where they're going to be playing hockey is, once again, very much in question after what happened. After the public vote went against the proposed Tempe Sports and Entertainment District that really would have just kept the team there in East Valley,

The project was a 16,000-seat arena, a practice ring, two hotels, rental shops, 1,600 apartments, a theater of sports, but pretty much everything all in one area, and it overwhelmingly voted against them. We'll get your initial reactions, guys, and what you think the future holds for the Arizona Coyotes. Russo, we begin with you, sir. Well, first of all, you know, I feel terrible for the fans there. I feel terrible for a lot of the people that are employed there and things like that. Because this has now got to be a harrowing thing. It feels like we are at the end of the line and that relocation is going to happen, whether it's now or they play another year at Molod Arena and move somewhere else. I don't know what the other options are unless they somehow get in with the new Suns owner and figure out a way to turn that arena into a hockey rink.

this is a personal defeat 100% to Gary Bettman. He has hitched his wagon to this organization for probably way too long. This goes back years when not the NHL's decision, but old ownership made the decision to go out to Glendale when they probably needed to be somewhere in the Phoenix area or Scottsdale or something like that. And it's just been just, you know, beat down after beat down after beat down. And I think the organization is shaken. I think they're shocked.

I could tell you that today, this morning, I was supposed to be on the phone with Gutierrez to talk about their celebration, to talk about how this was the biggest day in their organization's history. And now it is by far their worst day. And now when the league is no longer saying we are committed to Arizona, they're saying we're looking at all options. That has got to be a harrowing thing for that organization. And it's a shock to me that it failed. It looked like, you know, by all of the votes. I mean, the polls and everything, it looked like they were winning this. And, you know, again, 1.9 billion of the 2.1 billion was privately funded.

So for this not to pass is beyond shocking. And it just feels like this is the exit plan for the Arizona Coyotes. And it's just a matter of when. Yeah, I pretty much agree with all of what Michael said. I'll say that so here in Vegas, they've been building a lot of arenas and stadiums. and like T-Mobile Arena, where the Golden Knights play, was totally privately funded. The Allegiant Stadium where the Raiders play, the city of Las Vegas, it was either $500 million or $750 million. I'd have to, I think, $750 million of tax money went to pay for that stadium.

And I am vehemently against taxpayers paying for rich people's stuff. So I understand some hesitancy and when I see a vote against it, I understand why people would vote against it. But like Michael said, that most of it was privately funded, which is a surprising part. I, like I said, I can see why someone would vote against putting public money to pay for something for people that have way more money than they do. This guy is a billionaire. This guy is a millionaire. Why are we paying for his stadium for his arena for his hockey team, his football team, his basketball team, his best, basketball team, his baseball team to play.

At the same time, if it's that high of a percentage of privately funded and it seems like it's one of the last straws to keep a team in a city, it's just really devastating for it to not pass. And like Michael said, starting out, we like to joke about the coyotes a lot and how embarrassing it was that they're playing in a 5,000-seat arena and all this. They've got a lot of diehard fans that are going, if that team leaves, are going to be devastated. Those are the people that I feel the worst for right now. Let's face it, Staniel in the coffin.

I mean, this is, you know, off the top, I said the future is once again in question because it's not a matter of will, they won't. I don't see any other path that leads to them staying there. Gary Bettman released a statement saying the National Hockey League is terribly disappointed by the results of the public referendum regarding the Coyotes Arena Project in Tempe. We're going to review with the coyotes what the options might be moving forward. Gary Betman never used to say even anything like that that would hint at this team not playing. For Gary Bettman to say that, I'm sorry, the writing's on the wall.

And yes, I'm with both of you. Anytime hockey fans get disappointed or hockey fans lose their team, I feel for them. But I'm also in that group that kind of goes, let's bury this thing. You know, it's just how many years can we talk about this not working and this, if it's not going to happen if 1.9 million of a 1.9 billion of a $2.1 billion plan is privately funded and you're still saying no thanks? What you know, I know this is a podcast. People can see I'm shrugging my shoulders. I don't know what else to do or say to save this team. Yeah. I don't know if there really is anything. Again, the only option I could see is something with this new sun's owner. Um, but,

you know, again, I mean, that's not going to be an imminent thing. Um, yeah. What are you going to do in the the interim here. I guess they were going to play in Muller Arena for three years until they broke, you know, while breaking ground on what they had hoped. There's going to be this new arena district. So they had that contingency plan. But man, this is, this is obviously a devastating blow. And now the question is where do they go if they have to leave Arizona? That was my next question for it. You know, yeah, I mean, Houston has obviously been one that's been rumored for a long, long time. We've seen the reports lately with Atlanta and the Alpharetta area and up there in Cobb County. Obviously, Salt Lake City. been in the mix. Kansas City's been in the mix. There's been talk of Sacramento. You know, obviously people listening right now in Quebec are yelling at me, and I'm not mentioning them. But, you know, you also have a team that's in the central division here. None of those eastern teams are going to realign to the central if you move them east of the Mississippi. So I really don't think Quebec is an option. I think it's Houston, Kansas City, Salt Lake.

bring Detroit back to the Western Conference where they belong. Yes. Man, that was weird. Anyways, obviously, this is, like we said, kind of the writing is on the wall, but this was the most recent news that we had to get out there. So we'll keep you updated on what goes on there. But what's going on right now is the Stanley Cup playoffs, four teams left, guys. I mean, dare I say, not exactly what TV networks would call must-see TV, but hockey fans love it either way.

A couple things that jumped out to me before we even get into each specific series. Second time ever that both series have a coach facing their former team. Paul Maurice versus Carolina, at beat DeBoer with Vegas. And Rod Brindamore, let's not forget, played 406 regular season games for Paul Maurice. So some storylines behind the bench in both of these series. Well, let's start in the West because our own Jesse Granger is going to be very invested in this series. Rematch of the bubble semifinals. 21 players and five coaches that were involved in that series are going to be involved in this one after Pete DeBore improved to 7 and O in game sevens, which is just incredible.

Your initial thought on this one, Jesse, and I know you wrote about Jack Eichol, I was going to ask you about that. but maybe throw it into this answer too. Yeah, it's going to be a fun one. I think it's going to be a close series between two teams that mirror each other a lot. It's interesting because the last series, the Golden Knights played, it was very much, can a top-heavy team with superstar talent like the Oilers beat a deep team like the Golden Knights with their talent more evenly spread throughout the lineup? And the Golden Knights came out on top. And now they play a team that is just like them.

Dallas is super deep at forward. I mean, their third line is insane. They've got Wyatt Johnson, the kid down there, Fgeny to Donoff, Tyler Sagan and Ben are playing in their middle six. This team is super deep. And on defense, they've got equal depth back on the blue line. Obviously, Heiskin is a superstar, but they've got a lot of good players and they've got the big advantage in goal with Jake Ottinger.

So it's going to be interesting to see how Vegas deals with a team that plays similar to their style in terms of how they roll their lines over and their defensive pairs over. They've had a huge advantage in that department against both Edmonton and Winnipeg. So it's going to be interesting to see how they handle it. I think, like you mentioned, Jack Eichel is going to be the key to this series. He's got to match what the stars top guys can do. Obviously, Jason Robertson hasn't been playing very well in these playoffs, two goals, and they were both on the power play after scoring 46 in the regular season.

You have to imagine at some point he's going to get it going. And if he does, you're going to need Jack Eichel to match that. But he's been really, really good in these playoffs. It's the first time we've got to see him in the playoffs. We kind of wondered, what will it look like? The guy's been in the league for six years. He's one of the most talented players on the ice. But playoff hockey is different.

He'd never seen it before. And it seems like it suits him pretty well. He's got 14 points in 11 games. He's, I think, third in the NHL right now. Amongst players still left in the playoffs behind Kachuk and Rupert. Hints, who's been awesome for Dallas. So the Golden Knights are going to need another big series from him. They're going to need their goaltending, which basically they just throw a random person in there. I think they draw a person out of the crowd each game to play in net, and they stop 39 shots in a row

to eliminate the Edmonton Oilers. So they're going to need Aiden Hill or Logan Thompson or whoever gets thrown in there to try to match Ottinger. But there are so many good storylines even outside of the coaches that this series is going to be fun. Sorry, Russo, before you jump in there, I follow up question. Just how big is Jonathan Quick as a backup there? Because here's, look, I'm not saying as far as getting actual time, but you're talking about a guy who's been there, done that as a bona fide goaltender coach there on the bench, right? How big is quick there?

Yeah, it's funny. I'm actually going to ask him right. Like, as soon as this podcast ends, I'm going to CNN to talk to him to ask about this for a story. I'm writing on the goalies for tomorrow. but he's been big. I mean, it's not, and it's not just him. They've got Sean Burke there as the goalie coach. And like, not all goalie coaches have the type of NHL experience that Sean Burke has.

And I think it's helped these guys because you look at the goalies that have stepped in for this team. Logan Thompson is a rookie who wasn't even drafted, was coming out of Canadian university hockey. He was awesome. He represented the team in the All-Star game. Larembreswa was a career backup. He'd never had the starting job in his life. He gets to start in the playoffs. He out-duels.

Connor Hellebuck, his old goalie partner that he was backing up. And then Aiden Hill, who's bounced around back and forth between the HL and NHL. San Jose thought he was going to be their answer in net. They traded for him from Arizona. He wasn't. They ended up giving him to the Golden Knights for very little in return. So these guys are super unheralded and super inexperienced. And I think the experience of Quick and Sean Burke just kind of talking to him in the locker room, maybe between intermissions, you can say something. I think it's been huge. And I'm going to talk to Hill and Quick about that today and see what they say. But I can imagine there have been a lot of tiny little lessons that Quick or Burke can kind of throw their way to make things a little bit easier to where they're only having to worry about stopping pucks on the ice.

Yeah, I kind of hope Jonathan Quick get some time in this series because Jake Ottinger is such a goalie geek that he would absolutely freaking love it. You should see him whenever he gets to play guys like Mark Andre Fleury and some of the old school goalies in the late. I'm looking forward to the series. I mean, you know, obviously I covered Dallas in the first round. Dallas relies heavily on their power play. And it is, it's outstanding. And, you know, you saw when Povulski went down in round one, they just put Tyler Sagan on the number one unit.

And he just goes and pots four goals. And then they put Povulski back and it's just, you know, it doesn't take a step back at all. Heiskin is definitely the, the straw that stirs everything there. But Rupa Hintz is just playing just, I mean, unbelievable hockey right now. This guy, you know, in round one, Pete DeBoer compared him to Sasha Barkov, and I kind of like laughed. And then I was like, holy crap, this guy might be better than Barkov. Certainly more offensive from a dynamic standpoint and a finishing standpoint. He is just a spectacular hockey player.

So I'm looking forward to this series. You know, I'm looking forward to, you know, Vegas continually pushed back in that series. They answered and answered and answered both in games and in the series with huge wins in Edmonton. And I thought that we were going to see at the end of the day, Dry Seidel and McDavid just dominate the series, especially after game one. And it just never happened. You know, they just figured out a way to really stop them at five on five and play really well. And then you have guys like Jonathan Marshall,

who's got all this playoff history and experience. And I'm actually doing a podcast with Marshall. So right after we're done here as well. And I'm looking forward to sitting down with him and hearing about the hats on his front lawn and all that type of stuff. You know, to see him just step up in a series where maybe he wasn't scoring a lot and then all of a sudden just light them up, it was pretty cool to watch. All right.

Shifting gears over to the east, Florida and Carolina, of course, the Panthers upset the Bruins after the historic season upset the Leafs, who sat forth in the NHL and you've got the hurricanes who are coming off wins against the Islanders and the devil's first series in NHL history to feature three siblings. Eric and Mark Stahl on one side, Jordan Stahl on the other side. Interesting goaltending matchup, but for my money right now, I know it's way too early, but I do it anyway. Sergei Bobrovsky is my cons my vote right now, but there are a few people who definitely would, you know, battle him for that trophy.

Russo, your thoughts on the Eastern Conference final. Yeah, hard to argue. I mean, when Drys Outta was still alive, I would say him, but Rupert Hanson, Heisken are right up there as well. But Bob, what, I mean, the way that he, look, Alex Lyon started his playoffs for the Florida Panthers. And we've talked to the death guys about how this is not your prototypical eighth team. And here they are, you know, slaying both the Boston Bruins and the Toronto Maple Leafs

and having the huge, huge pushback in Toronto to go and win those games. And, you know, they were like last year's team two, where they were just coming back in games and things like that. And there's some attitude there. Like you listen to Matthew Cichuk talk and he speaks excitedly about how everybody, you know, doesn't buy into them that nobody in the world but them thought they could beat the Boston Bruins, how delightful it was to go up to Toronto where, you know, two weeks earlier they were chanting, we want Florida and go and beat the Leafs in Toronto.

There's just this attitude in that Florida room that nobody, believes in us. Like they are taking on this aced, you know, almost a little hyperbolic at this point. But I'm really looking forward to seeing this series because Carolina, you know, we talked, you know, Jesse mentioned before the blue lines of both Vegas and Dallas. And you look at this Carolina blue line and it's as good as it gets in the league. And I don't think that there is any coincidence that all of us were really second guessing on how good Carolina could be in this postseason without patcher ready and terra vina and

Svetchenikov. And yet they are here. And one big reason is their depth up front, but especially on that back end, they have not been affected on that back end. They are so good back there. And that to me is where the series is going to be won or lost for Carolina. Yeah, I mean, they just defend so well. Like New Jersey had a couple periods where they would get loose and create some chances because

they're so talented. but the way they smothered that dynamic devil's offense and just made them look pedestrian at best. I mean, there were so many stretches where it felt like New Jersey didn't have a scoring chance for 40 straight minutes. And that's a super dangerous fast team that passes really well. And Carolina just shut them down. I think it's going to be interesting to see how they do against a Florida team that creates offense in a very, very different way. because New Jersey needed to score with those tick-tac passes and like precise offense and they just shut it down, whereas Florida is much more content, chipping it deep, using their strength and size to go get the puck, sending it out to the point, firing it, and then battling you in front of the net and winning those battles. So this is a very, very different challenge for the hurricanes defense that's been so good.

and I wonder how they do against a big, strong physical forward. Like, Kachuk is obviously that to a T. Like, that's what he does. But I feel like the whole team has kind of taken that on and they've got the forwards to do it. It's going to be so interesting. These are two teams that I have doubted throughout the entire playoffs. And like, like the hurricanes were my pick to win the cup from the preseason all the way up until Terravining got hurt. And I jumped off the bandwagon.

I'm like, nope, that's it. That's it for me. I've been doubting them the entire playoffs. Obviously, the Panthers, I thought they'd lose to Boston. I thought they'd lose to Toronto. So this is two teams that I've been doubting. But now suddenly I actually trust them both somehow. So I don't even know who to pick in the series because that's an easy cop.

I just pick both teams. I went from not liking either of them all that much to now I love them both. And I don't know who I like more. I think, I mean, I picked Carolina. And we have to make our picks for the athletic. So I picked Carolina. But it feels like a coin toss. And if I and if you told me Florida is going to win, I'm not surprised at all.

These are two really good teams, and it's going to be a fun stylistic matchup. I know we talk about the markets and, oh, it's Vegas is the northernmost team, but, and there isn't an original six or a Canadian team in it, but this is going to be some fun hockey. If you like the hockey that's on the ice and don't care about how many people live in these cities, this is going to be some really good hockey. Just Rob, on that point, like this stuff about making fun of Florida and Carolina and the Eastern Final and what this is going to do to the league and the exposure and ratings and the salary cap. First of all, like, you know, a couple of hockey players trying to pretend they know how

the cap works right now and they're being completely way off. You know, there was one easy way to stop all this, and that's Toronto and Boston winning their series. Like, this is, like, these teams are in the national hockey league. They deserve to be in this position. These markets are going to sell out these games. I covered, we're talking to Doug McLean next. I started in Florida in 1995. I could tell you there's a fan base there. This is about growing the sport and I have no problem with the four finalists. It's not necessarily the, I know people will bring up markets like Jesse said a lot. The reason I kind of said not necessarily marquee matchups TV wise is exactly everything Jesse talked about. I mean, five on five, this series is going to be a bit of a slog fest. Yeah. You know what I mean?

mean like there's not going to be an eight six game in the florida carolina series i can guarantee you that um there's going to be a lot of the chip and chase there's going to be a lot of the smothering defense which doesn't necessarily lend itself well to being the general hockey fan yes guys like us are guys if there's five guys playing or 10 people playing road hockey right now the three of us would probably go watch it so we're not what we're looking at i'm just saying this is not necessarily a series that you go, did you see the game last night? Go watch it. That's where I think TV necessarily, if it was Toronto, Boston, that would be different.

We can get a triple overtime 1-1 game that'll be better than an 8-6 game. Probably will. The reason there's no, the reason there aren't going to be any 8-6 games in the conference finals is because the teams that score and allow eight goals are done because they're not as good as these teams. Yeah. Yeah. I think special teams will be huge too, because Carolina is so good on the PK and Florida is so

good on the P.P. I really think that's going to be interesting. Real quick, before we move on from these two series guys, every year we do this before the playoffs and then we do it when there's like four teams left. Sentimental favorites. I know we're professional broadcasters and writers who shouldn't be picking anybody, but there's always one guy who you kind of go, I'd like to see that guy win his cup. Is it Pavelsky? Is it suit? Or is it Ben? Is it Paul Maurice? Is it Bobrovsky? Who's your sentimental favorite you'd like to see win his first cup? Jesse? Well, I mean, I'm covering one of the teams in the, so it's kind of awkward, but I'll say I'll say Bobrovsky. I have grown up watching Sergey Bobrovsky. I've watched more Columbus Blue Jackets games than anyone should.

Oh my God. Than anyone should. How young are you? But Brovsky's been in the league a long time. I feel like I was in high school when he got in the league. I have watched so many Blue Jackets games just to watch Sergey Babrovsky. And he gets to the playoffs and he loses and everyone blames it on him and he can't perform in the playoffs. And I've, I have hated that storyline for so long. If he leads this team to a Stanley Cup and wins the Khan-Smith, I would be so happy for Sergey Mabrovsky.

Yeah. And it's been hard to watch Columbus since Sergey Bobrowski left that franchise. You know, for me, I mean, if you're going west, definitely Joe Pavelski. If you're going east, definitely Brent Burns. I just think that would be a freaking hoot to watch that guy get. his man bun and his beard caught in the cup. I think it'd just be hilarious. I mean, just imagine what his party will be like on his ranch in Texas with all the freaking animals and the, I mean, oh my God, I can't even imagine. I hope to God he would let me cover that cup, cup celebration down

there if they make it. This is my always impressed Russo with my stat of the week. 88% of the players remaining who have played at least one game or looking for their first Stanley Cup. 88% so whoever wins a huge chunk of that team is going to be lifting the Stanley Cup for the first time. Okay, guys, a couple things before we go to break. And as Russo mentioned, Doug McLean is going to be joining us in the second half of the show.

12 teams that made the playoffs are licking their wounds right now, guys. So you know what that means. Empty out your lockers and press conference time. The Canadian drought of teams winning a Stanley Cup hits 30 years. when the Montreal Canadiens won the Stanley Cup, last Canadian team to do so. So when the Leafs and the Oilers were eliminated, that was kind of an ongoing theme. What jumped out to you guys from their press conferences, their farewells? Specifically, we'll start with the Leafs for us so because I know you got a smile on your face.

There were some interesting quotes that came out of Toronto. Yeah, I just, I mean, the Kyle Dubus news conference I found to be fascinating because he right at the top didn't bury the lead and talked about his future. and he basically said that it's going to be completely his decision on whether he comes back, which makes me think that an extension has been offered there. But now he says that he's got to talk to his family because this has been a very taxing year for them. And there's two real concerns with that. One is they got some unbelievable pressing issues to determine here this offseason with with, you know, contract extensions potentially for Neelander and Austin Matthews, no move clauses that kick in for the, for the core, you know, for three of the core four.

And they've got to make these decisions sooner than later, especially with Austin and probably getting him signed to a midterm deal. I can't imagine he's going to sign an eight-year deal at this point. Maybe I'm wrong. It's going to be a crazy contract, too. I can see like four times 13 or 14. It's going to be groundbreaking. But the other thing is now, if your ownership of the Leafs and you hear that this was a taxing

season and that Kyle might be burnt out, you know, do you have to almost revisit bringing him back and say, do we have to have a search here? So this is going to be really concerning. I got to think the core four are watching this. And it's just going to be fascinating how the leads handle this off season because, you know, look, they had one of their best years in 20 years. And they obviously didn't get to the promised land. We all know how hard it is to win to break up this core, you know, when look, you know, in a sport where, you know, puck bounces and bad calls and missed goals and all that can really determine the fate of a team. you really want to break this up and take your and and you know we saw what just happened with

calgary right you make a you make a blockbuster trade with kachuk or huberto and you can take a massive step back and it just doesn't seem like there's a way if you're going to trade any of the big pieces in the core forward to get better so i think they got to have a um a big time uh you know cautionary tale there and i'll be just interested to see it but it starts with dovis and ends with Dubus. And I'll pass along to Jesse, but the other thing that I was shocked at was the Edmonton Pressor. I mean, those were some miserable players, Jesse. I mean, I don't know, the last time I've ever seen Connor McDavid smile. He just seems like, I mean, this guy has had his wits end to try and win right now. Yeah, Edmonton was incredibly frustrated by the end

of that series. The handshake line, they shook hands, but man, it didn't look as even. I mean, it's always, one side is always a little salty. That's how it works, but they looked a little saltier than usual in that handshake line. Obviously, there was a lot of emotion in that series. There were a lot of tempers flaring in that series, so that probably had something to do with it. But I think a lot of it is also just the frustration that, again, we have the two best players in the world and we can't seem to get it to go. And you covered everything for Toronto, so I'll stick with Edmonton. I think a lot of times it gets blamed on the defense and on the depth forwards. But out, like, there are forwards that aren't depth forwards outside of Connor McDavid and

Leon Drysidal. Like, teams don't just have two good forwards and then the rest are considered depth. Like, the other top guys for Edmonton, that's who let them down in this series. I thought McDavid was good enough to win. I thought Drysidal, he faded as a series went on, but he was good early on. It's Ryan Nugent Hopkins has a hundred and something points this season and then was just a ghost in the playoffs. It didn't exist.

There were games. There were games I forgot he even played. Evander Kane, I think he was dealing with wrist injury or something, but he was awful. I mean, he's on a line with Drysidal and McDavid. Like, I feel like I would probably score some points. It would go off my ass on accident if I happened to be on the ice with those guys. And he did nothing the entire series other than commit stupid penalties and antagonize the Golden Knights players.

New John Hopkins again, off. Hyman was hurt. He got hurt in that series. I'll give him a little bit of a break. But like, for me, the story is always for Edmonton, the depth players didn't show up. The bottom six. They need better of those guys. I thought their depth players did fine.

It was the top guys outside of McDavid and Drysidal that had been good all year. They were the reason everyone was picking Edmonton to win this year. They said, look, they've got more. Nugent Hopkins 100 points. Cain's been great. Hyman. And they just didn't show up in the playoffs. And it's like, I agree with you in Toronto.

Like, everyone says you got to make a bunch of. of changes. They have to make changes. Well, Tampa didn't make changes. It took them a long time to get there and they didn't make any major changes and then they won two in a row. Colorado, same thing. They were so close and they lost in the second round every year and they didn't really make any major changes. Sometimes it just goes your way and you win. And then once you've won it, you forget that it's never going to happen in the first place. So while I think Toronto probably will make changes, I don't think they necessarily do need to. I think sometimes stick with it, add some more small pieces and and maybe you'll get it to go.

But at Edmonton, it feels a little different. It feels like Edmonton's further away. And even though they went to the conference final last year, and like that's further than Toronto's been since I've been alive, it still feels like they're just not there. So it's going to be interesting to see what they both do, both super talented teams, but it seems like they got some work to do to get where they want to go.

Yeah. Rob, you're based up in Toronto. I mean, I've got to think that the Corps four either returns or Nielander's the goner. Because obviously, Tavares is, unless they get a miracle gift to them by another team, or he just says, I'm out of here, which he is not going to do with the no move. He's staying. And you're not trading Matthews unless he just refuses to sign an extension. And mourners going nowhere.

So it's got to be new landing. Well, this was the, and going back to, you know, Dubas had mentioned he's got to speak to his family. So this is obviously contingent on him still being the general manager. He always kind of stuck by his plan and his core and said, this is the. the team that's going to do it for us. This press conference felt different. He pointed towards Florida, kind of said, hey, look, they traded Hubertoe and were able to, you know, do this, which kind of like when we talked about with Arizona with

Betman, it's the first time we've ever heard anything that's even in that, dipping his toe in that water. So yes, I do believe it. My takeaway from these two exit days, if I had to paint a general feel for each, you I feel as if Edmonton was more devastated and, what's the word I'm looking for here? They took accountability a little more to me than the Leafs did. I didn't hear too many Leafs say we weren't good enough. I didn't hear too many Leafs say, you know, things like we could have done this better and we didn't.

We just didn't man up. I heard Leon Drysidal say this is a failure and we were not good enough. I heard, you know, I heard a little more accountability on the Emmington side. And while I would argue, you know, it's a coin toss as to who's closer, who's farther that, you know, Jesse said he thinks the Oilers are farther away. That's a coin toss. But I, if I'm choosing which team I want to follow, I want to, I want the ones that have the balls to say we were, we weren't good enough. Yeah. And we're going to be better next year.

I just didn't feel that. There are exceptions, of course, but I didn't feel that after watching the leaf. Yeah, not so shockingly, Ryan O'Reilly is the only one that really did. And that guy, you know, was the newbie there. It was a newbie there. And he wasn't one of the core four that completely flopped in that playoff series and didn't produce at all. And to your point in the Edmonton series, I mean, McDavid looked miserable, drives out to look miserable. Zach Heimann basically said next season it's cup or bust. If they don't win the cup next year, he's called it a failure. That's high expectations there. Now, one other thing that Kyle Dubas did say, he's quote, I definitely don't have it in me to go anywhere else. It's either here or I'll be taking time to recalibrate and reflect on the seasons here. But you won't see me next week pop out elsewhere. I can't put my family through that after this year,

which obviously is kind of a ripple effect because there are teams looking for a GM right now. Pittsburgh's looking for a GM. Calgary's looking for a GM. Now, according to our Pierre LeBron, Pittsburgh wanted to, to talk to Brad Trilliving, who remember, quote, parted ways with the Calgary Flames. And according to Pierre, the flames won't allow teams to talk to Trilliving until his contract expires on June the 30th. Is this not a terrible look?

And does this not sound like a team that's acting really petty? I mean, June 30th, are we serious right now? I thought you guys mutually parted ways. If that's the case, you should say good luck in your future endeavors and anyone who wants to talk to you, by all means, go right ahead. I thought this was, this looks terrible. I agree with you. And, um, you know, obviously, I'm sure they're looking at it more, like, look, who knows what behind the scenes. I mean, clearly all year long, he wasn't signing an extension. I think it's very clear that it was a lot of do with Daryl Sunder, the irony being that Sutter

winds up being fired anyway. And probably all these guys are rescinding their, rescinding their, no trade requests and things like that. So that might be part of it is pettiness. The other is clearly competitiveness is that they're looking at like, hey, he's under contract to June 30th, and we're not going to go let him use maybe proprietary information that he got here and go help the Toronto Maple Leafs in a draft if he was going to replace him, go to Pittsburgh. I do agree with you. It's completely wrong. I'll be interested to see what happens now in Pittsburgh because tree living to me made all the sense in the world. Jason Bottlell makes a lot of sense to me there, too. One, he start, he was from there, but two, he's got a great relationship, as I understand with Mike Sullivan,

and their coach. You know, so that to me is going to be fascinating and then seeing all the other, uh, candidates that they've, they've brought in. But the tree living thing,

I just think, especially for a guy that I find to be unbelievably classy, um, and a good, loyal, good person, um, to,

to, to play games like this. I just don't like it. But I, I get from their perspective too is that, you know, if trees, obviously,

if he's fired or if he's free to go talk to these team, is going to be the top free agent for all these teams. And now that we, you're hearing that Dubus is, you know, might be a no, no sign for the, for the Toronto Maple Leafs, you would think that Tree Living could go and run that team pretty seamlessly. And maybe they're just saying, you know what, we're not going to give an open door for, you know, Brad Tree Living to be hired in Calgary when all along, we wanted them back anyway. The Calgary Flames ownership does realize they're going to have to hire a GM again in the

history of their franchise, right? Like, like you said, Rob, this looks. so bad. And if you're another GM and you're watching how this is all handled, are you, I mean, it's not like they're not going to be able to get a GM willing to work there. Like that's a dream job. They're only 32 of them. They're going to have people. But if you're trying to get the top candidate, maybe not this time, but maybe the next time you hire or the one after that, eventually you're going to be, you're going to find yourself in a spot where we want to hire X. He's the top candidate. There's five different teams trying to hire this guy. And are they ever going to choose to come to this organization after watching? Like, they're all paying attention. Hockey's a small world. They're all, all the assistant

GMs, anyone who's going to be a GM in the future is watching what's happening right now. And it's got a way on their mind. I think it looks awful for them. I get what Mike's saying about, like, the competitive advantage, but is it really worth it to make every single person in the hockey world wonder how they're going to be treated if they go to Calgary, if there's going to be that kind of pettiness if they're there. I don't know. I just, I think it's a bad look, like you said, Rob, and I think it could have future implications. I think they're going to run into a spot where maybe somebody doesn't want to take that job because of the way they've handled this. And who talks more amongst themselves than GMs? Right. Right. And I've never heard a negative thing about

branch living in my life. So I could see people not liking the way he's being treated here. I just, I think, like I said, it just does not look optically. So we'll have to wait at least until June 30 to see where he ends up. You won't have to wait that long to hear from Doug McLean, former coach, GM broadcaster, and now author, because we speak to him after the break. So don't go anywhere. Okay, guys, so as we know, the Florida Panthers are four little wins away from the

Stanley Cup final. And we haven't been able to say that in a very long time. 1996 was the last time we said that. Third season in the league for Florida. The rats were flying everywhere. And our next guest was the man behind the bench. Doug McLean joins us on the athletic hockey show. Doug, thanks so much for doing this.

Yeah, it's pretty bizarre, isn't it? And to think that that's the one highlight of my career, it's pretty sad when I think it's been that long ago. I'm getting more damn podcast. requests because of that damn playoff run. Like, how does that happen? And that's my claim to fame, guys. After that, it was all damn downhill.

I didn't make some money. I didn't make some cash. Well, I mean, it was just so memorable. Yeah, it was just so memorable for so many reasons. And, you know, when we found out you were coming on, that's the first thing that popped into my mind. And I don't think that's an insult. But I know we're going to ask you, obviously, about these playoffs.

Well, we got to start 96, all these years later, I mean, what really sticks out? There's a lot of similarities between that team and this team. I mean, they beat Boston in the first round. They're kind of slaying a lot of giants. But when you think back to that run in 96, what really pops out to you? I remember Wayne Nizenga was really pissed off because we had a $17 million payroll, you know? So, you know, it's funny how it changes. But you know what sticks out is that group.

look and I've told Mike Rousseau this story before but I phone I phone Brian Scruill in the day I got the job and I phoned him in Calgary and I said hey Brian Doug McCleyn just wanted to introduce myself as a you know the new coach and he was he was unbelievable I was nervous phoning I mean I was nervous phoned and Brian because it was my first head coaching job and I I said Brian I you know I said you know hopefully and he said Doug let me let me tell you something we have a really good team we got some really, really good players. We've got a great,

unbelievable group of guys, and we've got a chance to have a really good team. And I get off the phone, and I remember like, man, this guy pumped me up. And this is the captain of the group. And that really jumps out of me as

what a wonderful captain this guy was. We stayed friends. I run into him the odd time at golf tournament. But it was also the entire group of guys. that all of them have done well in life. They've done well as GMs, as coaches, as business people, as TV people. You know, it was an amazing group of guys that Ryan Murray and Roger Nielsen and Bill Tori and Bobby Clark had actually put together. They did a great job.

And then we integrated some 19-year-olds and 20-year-olds. I mean, Rhett Werner was a 19-year-old. Jovenoski was an 18 year old. Neidemeyer was a 21-year-old. And DeVorak was a 19-year-old. They became important guys for us, that youth movement. So there was so many things that jumped out, but it was just unbelievable, to be quite honest.

It really was to think about, think back. I rambled on. Yeah, Doug. Yeah, no, Doug. I mean, that was my, that was my big highlight of my career, too. It was my rookie year as a writer and your rookie year as a coach. I mean, you know, it was such a special season from the year from the, you know, from the year of a rat standpoint. I mean, if you remember going down there, you know, those Western Conference finals, Stanley Cup finals,

there were scalpers on the street selling plastic rats. You could actually have to pay more for the rats than a ticket to get into the game. And that to me is, is, was the special part of that, that season was just watching those goals in the playoffs and the flood of the rats coming on the ice. What was it like for you, those five minute delay? six-minute delays as they were clearing that stuff off the ice. Well, you know what? It was pretty bizarre. And it's funny, I remember driving home from practice.

I just drove by the old pomp and old rink the other day when I was in Delray or heading towards Delray. And I remember driving home from practice and hearing these bulletins come on, a store would come on and announce they just got a shipment of rats in and make sure you get to this store to buy these rats. And I'm thinking, oh, how bizarre is this? But you know what, then when I love the rats raining down because that meant we scored. And I used to love it. I still see that Patrick Waugh. I was in a hotel room somewhere in the last year or so, and they come on with the final game that showed Patrick Hayden in the net, you know, Patrick Waugh. And I don't know if I have any bad memories, but I'll never forget walking to the rink for game seven in Pittsburgh, walking from the hotel.

and just by myself, Wanda Rink, thinking, oh my God, like if we win tonight, we go to the Stanley Cup final. How bizarre is that after all the criticism Brian took for hire me?

And, you know, the year we had, it was just unreal. So it was, I still chuckle about it. And so many people, even when the Panthers weren't in the playoffs,

so many people bring that year up to me. over the course of my lifetime. It's unreal, really. So it was a fun time. You mentioned that you heard it's a good group of guys. You get excited, but was there a point in the season where you realized, like, this team is really good? We could go on a deep run.

Did you have the belief from the beginning? Or was there, did it take some convincing? You know what? We flew into New Jersey and played our first game. And we lost 4-1. And I remember Brian, I was sitting on the plane, and Brian got on the plane, and he looked at me, just shook his head. We didn't play very well. We didn't play very well. And I thought, oh, my God,

this is going to be a torture. And then we won five in a row, five in a row. And at Christmas, we were in first place in the NHL. Like, who would ever believe in that in the Eastern Conference? First place in in in in at Christmas. And the second year at Christmas, we were in first place in the Eastern Conference. That's it was just so yeah, I did start to believe it. because the guys, they played so damn hard. Nobody said, oh, they were a trapping team. They were this. I said, a trapping team, game six against Pittsburgh,

we outshot Pittsburgh 65 to 30 in the game. Tell me a trapping team that gets 65 shots on goal. The other, I chuckle about all the time. I know I'm jumping all over the place, but I remember going in game one, in our meeting at Marriott, Harbor Beach Marriott, game one of the finals. And I remember saying to the team, I said,

guys, our goal in this series is to make Mario and Yager hate hockey the series is over. And you know what? I hated hockey when that series was over. It was vicious. And I'll never forget Mario coming over and shaking hands with me after game seven, say, hey, you know, you guys. had played a hell of a series, but

Mario and Yager had two points in that entire series between the two of them. Like, who would ever believe that guy? Now, I know Beezer was terrific, but our team played so well, it was unbelievable. Anyway, it was fun. Yeah, we can talk about the year of the rat, this entire show if we wanted to, but we do want to get your

opinions on your thoughts on this year's edition of the Stanley Cup playoffs. Let's start with the four teams that are left, the four teams standing and really, I'd like to ask you about Florida, because like I said, there are some similarities. This is a team that won the President's Trophy last year and come in as the eight seed. And that's what kind of, I keep saying to people, this is not an eight seed team.

You know what I mean? This just doesn't feel like that team that's on a magical run. This is a really, really good hockey team that it shouldn't surprise too many people during the final four. Would you agree or disagree? Yeah, look, President's Trophy last year, they, they looked like they're ready to, you know, really take off as a franchise as a group. And they've needed a run forever to To reestablish a fan base in Florida, they really needed a run. And this will obviously help get them back on the map down there. But look, midway through the season, there are nine points out of the playoffs. At one point I looked, Roboski's a disaster.

Just $10 million disaster. Spencer Knight has got issues and has to leave the team. And I'm thinking, where's this going? What is wrong with this group? What is wrong with this goaltending? What is wrong with this situation? You know, Paul Maurice, who retired, he's the only guy that gets to say quit hockey. Like, he got fired in Winnipeg.

Admit it. Say you got fired. Don't bullshit me. You know, oh, I'm sick of hockey. I'm going to take a break. Yeah, right. Okay. We all do that.

We all get sick. I get sick to be in a GM and I quit, too. Yeah, right. Anyway, and look, Bobrowski gets it going. Bill Zito deserves credit. He makes a great. trade for Kachuk. He made a hell of a trade. He really did. And, you know, I know tree living was up against it, but Zito went and got him. He got the guy. He got the guy that's,

that's got, not budgie balls. He's got elephant balls, this kid. And he plays hard. And you know what? So they made some good moves. Montour, like Montour. He looked like a star in Anaheim, faded in Buffalo, and all of a sudden he's an impressive kid. So, Bennett. I'll never forget three years ago Bennett was available or whenever it was

from Calgary and Nick said on our Hockey Central noon Toronto should go after Bennett and he got almost run out of Toronto over that comment oh they don't need Bennett

they don't need Bennett well they could use Bennett let me tell you could use that type of player so who marks to Dale Paul you know

they've done a good job and the players have really responded and fans have helped and they're a hard team to play again. They're a playoff type team right now. So is Carolina, so it's going to be a fun series. Doug, just to continue to get your blood boiling,

let's talk about the Western Conference Final in Vegas in there again. Seattle comes so close. You were the architect of the 2000 expansion draft for the Columbus Blue Jackets. You see the rules that these two teams had a chance to work with. What are your thoughts on how the league allowed them to build their franchises comparative to maybe Minnesota and Columbus back in 2000? Well, I tell you, it was, I think back about that often when I see the success they've had. And look, it was, it was ridiculous.

What went on with us, first of all, there was two teams coming in at the same time with Riser and myself. And it was like, you know, every team used us, one of against the other throughout the whole situation that's coming with their with their lists. The list was embarrassing. We had to take guys. I mean, I drafted Schneider.

I knew he was a restricted free agent because, and I knew I'd never get him, but I drafted him just to take a pick. It was embarrassing how we had to go about it. It really was. And that's not an excuse. You know, lots of other things happened. And, you know, Minnie had a good run.

You look at both franchises today, they're probably close to being, you know, good times, bad times, good times, bad times. But it was a horrendous start to the franchise. And, you know, Vegas came in and pay 500 million bucks and they're by themselves. Like Nashville were by themselves and Atlanta were by themselves. We come in as a pair. Yeah, they had big advantages, but that's okay. The league had to do something.

I don't have any problems of that. I love watching Vegas and that Stanley Cup run with Jared coaching. and, you know, I was cheering my ass off for them for Joard. But, you know, that's just the way it is. Everything evolves. And the leading got, did a good job given these teams a chance. Guys have done good jobs and they're with their franchises. So I don't have any issue with it, but it was a joke what we went through, seriously.

I cover the Golden Knights out here in Vegas. And one of the biggest, I don't know, talking points since this final. 4 was set is the fact that Vegas is the northernmost team left in the NHL playoffs, which is kind of wild. As someone who saw the fan base grow in Florida, and you mentioned a run is good to kind of establish the Panthers, what are your thoughts on the Sun Belt Final 4 we've got here in the playoffs? You know what? I don't care. People are saying, oh, look at the markets, and I'm thinking, who cares about the markets? I don't care about whether New York's in or Chicago. I don't care about the size of the markets.

I just want to watch good. I don't care about the salary cap. I hear so goddamn much about the salary cap with every organization. It's the number one talking point. I'm so sick of listening to it. I just want to see good hockey. And if Vegas is in and Carolina, Carolina has had a hell of a year.

I mean, they were best team in their division. Roddy Brandemore, to me, is the best coach in the NHL. we've got four good coaches, four veteran coaches, good players. I don't care about the markets and I don't care about the salary cap. I just, I want to see, you know, I just want to see good hockey and we're seeing good hockey. I love the playoffs. I love the time of year. Unfortunately, damn it, I got to go to Portugal Friday on a hiking trip and I'm going to miss that.

I mean, do you think I can get these games in Portugal? I don't know. I hope not. I don't think too many people will feel sorry for it. You take a trip to Portugal. I'm sure you can find some sort of internet connection. I'm going to hike and to drink Duro Red Wine. That's what I'm going to do.

And if I catch the score is great, then I'll catch the, you know, I'll get the finals when I get back, hopefully. Are you bringing, are you bringing Jeff, remember? Oh, my God. Poor Jeff. Poor Jeff. 20 years. I said to him the other day, I saw him do a podcast, I'm popping off beach with Rod Peter. and I think the guy is, and I said, Rims, you have aged.

You look so bad. You look old, man. Like, why are you doing this to your stove? You know, just shut it down. I know J.D. is your best friend in the world, and he'll keep you there as long as you want to be there. But just shut it down. Rims, you're getting all the players' names wrong most night. I mean, come on, enough already.

I'm kidding. I like that. I wish you would, I wish you would, uh, Tell the truth more. The greatest thing when you don't work, you can tell the truth,

hey? I listen to all these interviews and I think, oh my God, did I just hear him say that? It's so, anyway, but you don't have a job,

you don't have to worry about it anymore. And that's why we gave you a call. 12 teams are licking their wounds right now, Doug. Which fan base you think has the most right to be disappointed in an earlier playoff exit than they would have liked? Because obviously,

you know, you've been in around Toronto a lot. That's a team. that's in there, Edmonton, a lot of fan bases are not happy right now. Really, really.

A lot of high price players sitting on the sidelines, a lot of great teams. Like, how, you know, just watch what happened to Boston. To see them go out

the way they did with a 3-1 series league with the season they had, to me, it was devastating. I mean, I really wanted to watch the Bruins, a team that is built the right way,

12 of their own draft picks on the team, some quality, Quality veterans. And they got a guy playing goal who's never played a playoff game. Ever play a playoff game before that series? And I'm thinking, how to, you know, neither goalie has played a playoff game. I don't think they had. Maybe they'd played a couple.

But so Boston is, it would be devastating. And Toronto is just such a, like, seriously, how does this keep happening in Toronto? It's just. And now the GM, I'm listening, the GM's who are. I'm not sure I want to come back. I got to talk to my family. I'm thinking, oh, okay. Pike, okay, talk to your family.

Do you not talk to your family all year? Do you not know? I mean, so I just feel, I mean, let's just, you know, again, it's salary cap. Four guys are over 40 million. How do you build a team? Minnesota, they buy out a couple of guys. The team, they got a $12 million dollar guy, and they got Bodie at $8 million.

And, like, how do you build a team and you've got to pay young guys that kind of money? It's tough to build a team. So Toronto and Boston would be the two that I would think. And Edmonton would be, you know, with McDavid and Dryside. I play so damn hard those two kids. They play so hard. Tom is a great pickup. So there's some fan base that, yeah, we would be devastated, no doubt about it.

And it hurts. It frigging hurts. Doug, you know, one reason why we wanted to have you on is at the pre-ordering right now is for your new book, draft day that you did with Mr. Morrison. How did this all come about where you became an author? And, you know, I didn't know that you could write, frankly. How did it come about? What's your favorite stories from the book, Doug?

And, you know, one draft that I'm working on right now is a 2003 draft, amazingly, 20-year anniversary coming. up in Nashville. Any great stories from that book, from that draft in your book? How did it come up with? It was pretty bizarre. I got a call from an agent, Brian Woods' name, a literary agent, and asked me if I'd be interested in doing a book, that Simon and Schuster had touched base with them because they had listened to a lot to Hockey Central at noon. You know, would I be interested in doing it? And I said, no, I really don't want to do a book. I, you know, I'm not doing a book about, and they said, no, no, it's about the draft.

And then that changed it. And I'll tell you what, you're right. I had written emails before to write a book. And as Chris Cuthbert said the other night, he was with Rimmer in the press box in Florida and they phoned me. And Cuthbert said, I will be the first guy to write a book who's never read a book. And I'm thinking, okay, just a minute, Cuthbert. I've got my master's in educational psychology from Western Ontario, and you've got your

grade 12, well, high school. Who's read books and who hasn't read book? So anyway, I started this and I'm telling you, it was a daunting process. I mean, I wrote 15 chapters, 7,000 words a chapter on my iPad. And so I sent the first six to Scott Morrison, who's a magician. Scott is unbelievable. I was so thrilled he would come with me on this project.

He's such a fabulous guy. So I send him the damn chapters from my, I didn't type it on my iPad. Send the first six chapters. And I had put in Dents for chapters, but it goes to him in one straight line. Six chapters, seven thousand words out one straight line. And I said, what that? And he said, Doug, don't you use paragraphs? And I said, well, I did.

I put it all in various, but I didn't have the, uh, my, daughter told me, you don't have that on your app, on your, you know, you have to have it in your notes or something that it goes in paragraphs. Scott, that, oh my God. Anyway, we did it. It was a fun project. What's a, what's a funny story? They have one I get a kick out of. So it wasn't the draft your time. It was a Joe Thornton draft. And John Ferguson, senior, wanted Oli Yolka. He was that chief scout at that time, Fergie Senior of San Jose. He wanted Oliokin and so bad it was unbelievable. So bad it was unbelievable.

So, he watched him all year. We're going to get Oliokin and that two. We're going to get him with the second pick. So he goes to the Asperi Hotel in Helsinki for the world championships. So that's where we all hung out in the basement of the Spirioch. And he sees Oliokin and out dancing on the dance floor two in the morning. Berge he goes, oh, and hey, young fella, you should be home in bed.

And he said, get lost. He says to Fergie, Oli, get lost, oh man. Fergie goes back to his staff and he said, that's son of a gun. We are not drafting Oli Yolkan. As much as I want Oli Yolkan, and we're not drafting Oli Yolkinen, and they had to settle for Patrick Marlowe. All because Oli mouthed off. That's crazy because I think so all fans see when it comes to the draft is what, you know,

the final product is. But, and I know this is kind of a little more of a funny story, but walk us through a little bit of that as a GM and a coach and how much goes into just the players as a whole. You know, we've heard about those interviews. One bad answer and a GM suddenly doesn't want you. One bad, you know, comment on a dance floor and suddenly Yokinen is not a San Jose shark. I mean, is there more to the draft like that that people that would even know about? You know, I think it happens all the time. You know, it's just funny.

how it goes. It's like even the point draft, you know, Braden point draft and people have talked about that a lot. I mean, how does Stevie Y in the third round flip picks with Chuck Fletcher? Chuck gets an extra seventh round pick

and Tampa take Braden Point in the third round. Because of a flip, because of a Western League scout really wanted Braden Point. Braden Point was a little guy at the time at a hell of a player played World Junior.

So it happens. And what the bizarre thing is, people say, well, have a great draft. Braden Point was the only player from that draft that played the Bay Lightning. Great point. The only guy in that entire draft that played for the Tampa Bay Lightning. So interviews, you know what, I wish more guys would have turned me off in interviews. Maybe I wouldn't have drafted them. but the draft the draft is so it's so top it's and yeah i think you look at every draft and there's

bizarre picks nick kiprio said to me brule six pick of the draft okay copatar went 11 so i still i went after i took bruley ryan lee went after the minnesota kid went after i took brule, set of Gucci went after. I mean, a number of guys, and Copa her goes 11. And the most devastating pick in my career.

I've been grilled for that pick for so long, it's unbelievable. And Berkey said to me, one day, we're doing TV, and he said, Doug, nobody had Copa tar in the top ten. Nobody had Copa turn in the ten. Why do you beat yourself up over there? I said, well, because if if I would have got Copatar, I might still

be a GM. And Nick Kripprio said, what do you think it cost you to take Brouleta ahead of Coppeter in that draft? And I said, Nick, I would say it probably cost me about $30 million personally. That's probably what it cost me, because I'd probably still be working. So it's funny how it goes. I mean, I thought I was 100% sure going into that draft that Montreal were taking Broulet. We were not taking carry price because we had Pascal LeClair, who we really like. And we had Kerry Price rated second round. A lot of teams had them rated 12.

We had them rated 12, they should say, but not in the first round. Carrie Price goes on to be, the two best players that entire draft were Copa and Price. They should have gone one, two, in that entire draft based on their careers. And guess what? They didn't, you know? Who did you take? And who did you and Reiser take in Minnesota that draft?

Benoit Pouliott. I think the other interesting thing about the draft I do look since 1995. I think one team has won the Stanley Cup since 1995 without having at least 10 of their own draft picks on their team. It's hard to believe. And it may get broken this year if Vegas win. Vegas win because they've traded all their pick away.

One draft pick on the team. Oh, they have one draft pick is on the team. that history is shown going back in the early 90s if you don't have 10 picks on your team of your own players at least almost half your roster of your own graphics you don't win the Stanley Cup and it really has come through and that's a chapter in the book and you look at LA when they won multiple cups Chicago when they won multiple cups when Colorado won St. Louis only time they had 10 draft picks on their team they won the Stanley Cup so it's funny how it goes you know and uh Detroit it

Always had 10 directs every year, New Jersey. So that was a, that was sort of a chapter in the book as well. But I did a Jaredev chapter, which is your chapter, Mike, you're talking about, which is one of the great chapters. Gerardev, like seriously. Oh, my God. My decision that draft was Bannick or Gerardev. We take, like our guys, people love, people had Gerardev number one.

all year in that draft. He was, like, guys, he was a scariest, most talented guy I've ever been around in my career. He was so good. He was so damn good. And so, my God, he drove me crazy. Anyway, that's what happens, you know. You make a couple of those picks, and it's boom. It's ugly, you know?

Doug, lastly, we've kept here a while. You mentioned Gerard Gallant. I wanted to ask about him. I mean, you know, he goes to the Stanley Cup finals with Vegas and abruptly loses his job. He had the, you know, much documented firing in Florida where he had a halal cab out of Carolina. And then he takes the Rangers from a win last year to the Stanley Cup finals to losing his job this year. You know, like how surprised are you? And, you know, what do you think that's about that that he has, you know, sort of trouble lasting in these places? Is he just doesn't deal

with the political game or what do you think it is? And where do you see him winding up next? He doesn't deal with the political game at all. I've known him since he was 10 years of age. I actually taught him in school, taught him in high school. We're great friends, and I talk to him a lot. I was really nervous when he went to New York. I really was. To me, he's not a New York type of guy.

Dolan, he's not going to be buddies with Dolan. He doesn't schmooze with people. He's not, you know, he and I would go out and have a beer and some chicken wings, and we'll play golf. But he's not a smoozer. He's not a guy that likes to hang out. I didn't think it was going to be a good fit for him. I really didn't.

I think he did a hell of a job there. I think he set it up at the end to make it look like a, you know, you're not doing the player meetings. I'm doing the player meetings. I knew he was done when that happened. I think he was set up a little bit. Dolan obviously didn't want him back. You know, Glenn say there was.

was a genius. He'd go and listen to Dolan band every night and tell them how good they were, and he'd still working there 30 years later. I mean, seriously, that's not Juard. But he's a good coach. He managed him. Here's what really bothers me. He left Vegas. I'd like to hear Jesse's comments about this. Somebody in Vegas, management, set this up that Juard couldn't make changes during a game. Couldn't make tactical changes. And that followed. them from Vegas. BS on that so bad. You know what?

When he got the job in L.A., that was during, that was a big comment by Larry Brooks. Has trouble with tactical changes during in-game. And you know what? It stayed there. It stayed there all year. And at the end of the year, it was a big issue

when he was fired. Can't make tactical changes. Give me a break. Give me a break. I don't buy it for a minute. I think it's total BS. I think it's a non-fair thing he's got to deal with right now. Jesse, you were there. Yeah, I totally agree with you that I think he could have done. He was very good at tactical change. I think what maybe. Who's the judge? He wasn't good at tactical changing? I didn't, I don't know exactly who said

that. I couldn't tell you. But I will say that I think that. Yeah, wasn't a media first. No, no. management person. Gerard Gallant doesn't like to talk about his tactical changes with the media as much as some other coaches. Like I cover Bruce Cassidy now. Bruce Cassidy will walk us through every single thing he's doing on the ice. Turk doesn't really like to do that. And I don't blame him.

Coaches don't need to tell us everything they're doing. So I think that probably led to part of that narrative was the fact that he doesn't really talk about that stuff with the media. So maybe it's easy to say, well, he's not doing those things behind the bench. but I agree with you. And I've never seen a more devastated locker room. I've only been covering the league for six years. I've never seen a more devastated locker room than the day they fired Gerard Gwant here in Vegas.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, here's the tactical tactical change he should have made, and I was watching the game. When took the five-minute major, I guess he should have pulled Flurry because they were shooting pucks, they were shooting balloons through furious.

Flurry after that. The three goals they scored on him, he wasn't even in the net. And I'm thinking, I guess that's the tactical change. He should have pulled Flurry and put whoever the backup was in. But, you know, worry we got them there. Anyway, that's what happens to coaches. Then you get labeled and you get branded.

And I just, he's a good person. He'll end up in his speed. I wouldn't be surprised he might end up in Anahein. I know Rebeek-Eisenman combination. You know, I think Anahein would be a good spot for him. I really do. So we'll see what happened. Coach GM broadcaster and now author, Doug, just keeping busy.

Thanks so much for coming on. The book is draft day, how hockey teams pick winners or get left behind. Be sure to pick it up. Thanks for doing those. Buy those books, man. Buy those books. I forget what number of my bonus clicks in, but buy those damn books. See, thanks a lot for having me, guys.

Yeah. The book is not all in one line. Okay, it's actually on pages and in paragraphs. It's not all one line. And Doug, who knew that like 27 years ago I would teach you to write and you would teach me out of everything about hockey? As long as, you know what you'll find with the book, Michael, not nearly as vicious as you are. Positive thing. Guys, thanks a lot for having me on.

Michael, it's always great to hear from you, Jeff. Good to hear from you. Jesse, nice to meet you, man. And good luck, guys. I hope the podcast. I read, I see it all the time, the comments. and I don't get to listen to it as much as I probably would like to. But anyway, thanks, Rad.

You know what? The flight, the flight to Portugal is a long one. You could just stack a bunch of episodes and give it a listen. Jill, Jill, guess what we're doing on the way to Portugal? We're going to listen to Mike Russo. Take care, guys. Yeah, thanks, Doug. Rapid Fire coming up next.

So don't go anywhere. Okay, boys, my favorite time of the show and yours, Rapid Fire. We got a lot, five of them today. So let's start with number one, the Philadelphia Flyers. Who could have seen this combo coming for the Flyers? GM Danny Breyer, coach John Tortorella, and now President Keith Jones. He was announced as the new president of hockey operations for the Flyers. Your thoughts on this one, Russo, I know you're working on this.

Yeah, I'm doing a big story on Keith Jones and how he kept this a secret, even from everybody at TNT. And you saw who could see this coming, not even his closest friends could see this coming. his closest friends in the world are guys like Rick Tuckett and Craig Gruby. I talked to Tocket yesterday. Tocket didn't even know until the day before. None of those guys on TNT even knew that he was a finalist until he flew into Raleigh and told him face to face before that game that they were working on last series. So I'm doing a big stir on this. I like the hire.

I mean, first of all, as you mentioned during the first segment about Brad Trey Living, find me one person in the league that has a negative thing to say about Keith Jones. He has been seen up close and personal, 23 years, you know, between the benches and being in that marketplace, living there, morning radio, everything. I just think it's a good hire and I think he's going to be a good sounding board for Danny Breyer. And because of those contacts that he has throughout the league being so immensely respected, I think that can only help doing due diligence on trade. or free agent pickups, draft picks, and then also helping Danny Breyer from a support standpoint. I like the hire. Yeah, I agree.

It's been a pleasure, a treat watching him on TV, and he seems like not only the relationships, and obviously, like you said, everybody respects him, but I think when you listen to him on TV, the guy knows hockey, it's going to be interesting to see how it transitions to the GM role. Yeah, it should be fun to watch. five teams in the NHL right now searching for a new coach, including the Columbus Blue Jackets, who have apparently contacted Peter Lavulet and Mike Babcock, guys, who hasn't coached since being fired by the Leafs in 2019-2020 season. Do we see Mike Babcock as a coach pretty soon, Jesse? That's an interesting combination.

When I think of Babcock, I think of like the guy you bring in to. to try to whip the star veterans into shape to try to win a Stanley Cup and maybe not the guy that's there to build from the ground up, a team that's really bad and doesn't have a lot to work with and they're trying to like, I don't know, it just, maybe I'm wrong, but it just feels like a really, really odd combination. What do you think, Michael? Yeah, I mean, it's so predictable, right? They go from the, you know, sort of rookie coach and Brad Larson, so now we got to get the veteran in there, you know, I'm half expecting them to call George Gallant who got his coaching career started in, you know, in Columbus. And we just talked to the person that hired

him there in Doug McLean. I'm just like, like, I'm not one of those people that's like enough of the retreads, enough of the retreads, but come on. Like, is there anybody that has a more finite shelf life than Peter Lavellette? I mean, he is the prototypical two and a half year coach. Like, it's just like, that to me makes no sense. You know, so he'll probably get the job. I just, I just don't, you know, I don't know. You know, it's just like they're a young team that needs to be built.

I think you're going to want somebody that has a proven track record of lasting in a certain market. And so I don't know if Laviilla makes the most sense there. Rapid Fire topic number three, the Ottawa Senator's Sale. Ryan Reynolds is out. won't be part of a team to purchase the Sends. The group wanted an exclusive negotiating window to try to purchase the franchise. That request was turned down.

He got frustrated and said, I am out. Are you shocked at the news? And what other celebrities are going to throw their hat in the Ottawa senators ring? Russo. Well, you know what about Ryan Reynolds? I mean, you know, I'll be interested in what happens. We talked about Arizona during the first segment guys. Like, is there going to come a point where the league just says, all right, you know,

whatever the future is of the Arizona Code is where they, move or whatever, but at some point you're going to have to say to this ownership group enough. Sell, you're out. And, you know, you just wonder if Ryan Reynolds has now assimilated enough, you know, in this group where they start to look at other teams. And I got to think if the billion dollars is going to be what the asking price is or the auto-o senators, I guess is that there are some owners that never thought of selling that are going to be like, you know what?

Maybe now is the time to get some bang for the buck on my investment. So, you know, I'm rooting for Snoop. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Now that Reynolds is out, all of our hope is in Snoop Dog. That's something I thought I would say on a hockey podcast. So all of our hope is in Snoop Dog. To quote what he said in his video this week, it's official like a referee's whistle.

I was like, that's why we need Snoop as an owner in the NHL. Rapid Fire topic number four. Not sure if you guys have noticed, especially in Ontario, but you can gamble on sports legally now. And one guy doesn't like it. Carl Suban, P. P.K. Suban's father has been pretty adamant that he thinks all of the gambling ads should be banned. He doesn't like kids seeing it. Also doesn't like celebs and hockey players actually endorsing these sites.

He's joined a group called ban ads for gambling. The Alcohol and Gaming Commission on Ontario is also called for a ban on celebrities trying to sell, you know, trying to sell people on gambling. Are we going to see this actually happen? I don't like the ads, not because I don't think kids could see it. I just think it's so oversaturated and so annoying. You can't do anything without it being sponsored by a sportsbook, but that's just my take on it. Jesse? Yeah, I mean, I live in Las Vegas.

This has been my life forever. So for me, it doesn't like, it's not really a shock to the system. I know it has exploded in the last couple years in terms of like nationally and internationally, how in your face this gambling stuff is. I live in Vegas, so to me it's just kind of business as usual. I don't expect it to go anywhere. There's a lot, a lot, a lot of money in it. So, yeah, I don't think it's going anywhere. It doesn't bother me just because, like I said, it's nothing new to me. But I understand why, like, I totally see Carl Suban's point. And the fact that it's in everyone's face as much as it is, he thinks could maybe lead to gambling problems down the road for people.

but like I said, I'm kind of numb to it at this point. Yeah, you know, I also respect his opinion here, but it's not going to end. But I totally respect his opinion. It is actually alarming in a day and age of young people doing everything on their phones, from dating to gambling, how easy it is. I mean, you just can go to an infinite number of sites, whether it's actual like, you know, Bet MGM or Seizards or something like that, Povada or whatever, bet on g what all those sites are called um or but even just the prop sites like prize picks an

underdog and they are just you know constantly just you know rapid-fired um you know betting on everything from shots to hits to block shots to face off it's it is it's crazy and it's scary because these most people that are doing it are young kids who do not have incomes yet or a lot of incomes and i think it's very easy to get a gambling disorder i joked with jesse via text the because I was in Vegas in a sports book watching game seven of the Dallas and Seattle series. And everybody around me had clearly Dallas on the puck line. They're up to nothing. Jurchsrand scores a nothing goal with 17 seconds left and the sports book erupted in anger.

And people just freaking out because of this meaningless goal. And that is, that is, I mean, that was like firsthand seeing it. And these are not just all like, you know, 50 year old crotchety gamblers. These were, you know, 21 year olds out here on, you know, trips with their buddies. It was pretty crazy to watch. I grew up with every sporting event was sponsored by either a cigarette company or a beer company. And it just doesn't happen anymore because of this exact conversation. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but I think eventually we'll get to that point.

I think they're going to look at it as, yes, you're promoting something legal. You're not doing anything illegal, but it's also something we don't want to shove into people's faces. And laws are going to change. Not tomorrow, but I can see it happening in the future. I never thought that a beer company couldn't sponsor a league or a game or something. And same with cigarette companies. It just doesn't happen anymore. And I can see that happening with gambling.

Finally, rapid fire topic. Number five, guys. according to some reports, the NHL reportedly asked ESPN to push their baseball to ESPN 2 to have game 6 between the Oilers and the Golden Knights at a more suitable, we'll call it, a time slot of 7 p.m. Eastern rather than 10 p.m. And they ended up being declined. Your thoughts on this one, because, you know, people talk about the ESPN versus TNT, would they have moved it? They apparently asked to move the game to TNT. And again, these are reports. ESPN said no. Your thoughts on moving these games, so it's a better time slot for eyeballs to see the Stanley Cup playoffs. Russo. Yeah, I mean, I don't know the ins and outs, but Sunday night baseball has been around forever,

and it's probably very contracted, and I bet ESPN could not move it. Now, what was coincidental is the game that Sunday night baseball game went into extra innings, and the game started on ESPN 2. So why could it not start on ESPN 2 earlier anyway? You know, or play. put the game on ESPN 2. I know probably then the league might scoff and say, well, we're not having a game 7 on ESPN 2, and it should be on the flagship. But there had to be a work around it.

I get that ESPN maybe could not move the game. The other irony of this that I found fascinating, and I think Jesse will get a kick out of this, is all the people out east just going crazy about a 10 o'clock Eastern Time start. You know, like, sorry, those in the Central Division have to start every game at 940 Eastern in the playoffs forever it's been going on

and nobody ever gives a crap and now suddenly because there's one hockey game on that night everybody in the Eastern Conference is like this is egregious what about our kids that go to go to I mean it's just ridiculous and nobody was bitching and morning so don't you know the East is all that matters that's all that matters the Easter's all of a sudden this turned out to be like the biggest indictment

on the NHL ever and I just thought it was laughable when when the Minnesota Wilde have had to pay every playoff game they've ever had at 940. They never get the benefit of the earlier time slots because they never advanced to the later rounds to get the lower times on their plus teams. But that's a story for another day. Yeah, I don't know. As a West coaster, it seemed like a good time to start a hockey game to me.

I understand how why people were upset. But I also, like Michael mentioned, they didn't want to move to ESPN too. I think more important than. what channel it's on. It's the fact that ESPN, they've got contracts with both baseball and hockey, and they don't want to put their two products against each other. In their minds, it's like, I think they were thinking maybe people will stick around from baseball and watch the hockey game too, and that'll get us a little boost. They're trying to get maximum ratings for both games, and putting them on at the same exact time on opposing channels absolutely does not accomplish that.

it does everything it can to not accomplish that. So I think that was the biggest issue. And like Mike said, it's Sunday night baseball. It's been around forever. They couldn't move it. I'm sure they would have if it would have been easy, but they couldn't move it. And I just, like I said, West Coaster seemed like a good time to start a hockey game for me.

All right, boys, this is usually the time to ask you what you're working on, but you both already alluded to it quite a few times during this show. So I'm going to ask you, Rousseau, because I know you're doing the off-season trade board. And as yourself and Duhatchik, and it's crazy because there's so many things you guys hit with the Jets and the Leafs and the Kings. Talk to me about this trade board. Because usually it's like we see the trade bait board and all that stuff during, you know, trade deadline day.

But this is perfect because a lot of guys could move in the offseason. Yeah, it's going to be really fascinating around the draft. I mean, this, I mentioned earlier on the podcast. And I'm working on a 20-year anniversary story of the Nashville draft, the best draft of my lifetime. You know, I didn't grow up watching Bobrovsky, but I grew up watching players. but no, I'm just kidding. So, you know, I'm looking, sorry, I lost my train of thought there. But so I'm doing that 2003 thing. But to me, this draft more so than even to the Bedards and the, and, and, and, and those type of players, Fantilly, who we've had on this show, is what the trades are going to be around the draft. There's a lot of teams that are not only the Minnesota Wilde who are at 14.7 million of dead money.

There's a lot of teams that have overages or a lot of contract extensions that aren't, they're not working. out on July 1 might have to be addressed at the draft like Nealander that we talked about. So I think trades are going to be a really big part of this offseason. And the Jets and the Leifes are fascinating. We talk about the core four for the Leifes. Well, what about the core for the Jets? That team could be big time broken up, you know, with Hellebuck and Wheeler and Sheifley and Dubois. So, you know, give the trade board a read. Eric DeHatchik and I talk to a lot of people around the league to work on that. That's not just throwing names out there. We did a lot of research going into it.

And the best part about the trade board is it will be evolving over the next six weeks where we're going to be constantly doing updates in it. Be sure to check that out. Like you said, the updates are what everybody likes. I love how it's ranked. That's just the way I always like seeing it right now. Connor Hallibuck, number one on that trade board. Guys, thanks as always for a good show.

Before we go, I want to remind everyone else. We got a YouTube channel. Jump on at YouTube.com slash the athletic hobby. Hockey Show. And I also want to remind you that Keith Jones, as we mentioned, the new president of hockey operations for the Philadelphia Flyers was a guest with Sean Gentilly and Max Baltman this week on the Athletic Show USA. So go give that a listen.

And the athletic hockey show continues Thursday with Ian Mendez and down goes Brown and our own Mike Russo. Yeah, that guy is going to be on that show in conversation with Vegas Golden Knight, Jonathan Marcia. So big thanks to Doug Baclaine for jumping on and making us laugh for about 25 minutes. And it's hope you enjoyed the show for Mike, for Jesse. I'm Pizzo. We'll talk to you next week.