The Athletic Hockey Show - Bedard, Celebrini, Carlsson: the NHL’s new superstars have arrived

Episode Date: November 10, 2025

All you have to do is look at the NHL’s list of leading point scorers to know the future of the league is here. Alongside the Nathan MacKinnon’s, the Jack Eichel’s, and the Connor McDavid’s are a trio of young stars named Connor Bedard, Macklin Celebrini, and Leo Carlsson, who are not only putting up big point totals to start the year, but also putting their skills on display on a nightly basis. On today’s episode, the guys discuss the excitement surrounding this injection of new hockey talent, as well as what it means for the future of the Blackhawks, Sharks, and Ducks. Plus, The Athletic’s Jeremy Rutherford joins the show to talk about the quickly developing disaster in St. Louis for the Blues and The Athletic’s Peter Baugh helps close things out with a conversation about the state of the Metro division.Hosts: Max Bultman, Mark Lazerus, and Jesse GrangerWith: Jeremy Rutherford and Peter BaughExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Chris FlanneryWatch full episodes on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowJoin our Discord Server: https://discord.gg/VTm9VjkFSubscribe to The Athletic: https://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. Hey, everybody, Max Boltman here alongside Mark Lazarus and Jesse Granger for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show. And Lazza, I want to start with this because we're recording this late Sunday night. Nathan McKinnon has a couple of goals to put him in first place in the NHL scoring leaders. And after that, you pointed this out. It is just young player bonanza. It's Macklin-Cellibrini, Connor Bedard, Leo Carlson. The new era is here in the NHL.

Well, yeah, as of just like 20 minutes ago, as we're recording this, Connor Bardard was leading the league in scoring, Macklin Celebrini was tied with Nathan McKinner for second, and Leo Carlson was alone and third, and they're all just so red-hot right now. Listen to this. Celebrini is on a 10-game point streak. He's got nine goals and 10 assists in those 10 games.

Leo Carlson is on a nine-game point streak. He's got six goals and 11 assists in that span. Baddard is on an eight-game point streak. He's got seven goals and 11 assists. They are just utterly dominant right now. They're playing great at both ends of the ice, all three of these guys. It's so exciting to see them all taking a... I feel like we've been doing the Celebrini versus Bedard thing forever here,

but it's so exciting as a hockey fan just to see them all taking this leap at the exact same time. Celebrini, as good as he was last year, wasn't this. And Bedard, you know, you could talk about he was minus 100 or whatever it was a couple years ago. He wasn't this. And Leo Carlson's been like, oh, he's a good, solid two-way player. He wasn't this. All of these guys are taking the leap into superstardom at the exact same time. and it's just really cool.

I watched Leo Carlson live here in Vegas last night, and he scored his 20th point of the season. It was ridiculous. The move to the back end, and it was his 20th point of the season, and someone put the stat. He scored it in late February last year was when he hit this point.

Pretty ridiculous. And to me, what's the most exciting about these three players taking this leap is their teams are winning. And in a league, I feel like the NHL, the parody is great, but I think that it also is maybe of all the major professional sports, it is the hardest to improve, to go from being bad to good or to go from being good to bad. And we just see the same teams every year.

I am so pumped that the ducks look legit. San Jose is clearly better than they've been. The Blackhawks are winning more games than we've seen them winning quite some time. The youth movement and maybe a shift in the landscape of the NHL has made the beginning of this season so excited. That Leo Carlson goal, before he scored, he won three separate puck battles along the walls. Like, this is what's so cool about is we knew Celebrini was this great two-way player. But Badard, he had that goal in, where was I last. I was such a long trip I was just on.

I didn't remember where I was. Calgary. I think I was in. Calgary, that's right, Calgary. The Hawks have a three-nothing lead. There's two minutes left to go in the game. It's coasting time, right? Absolute Coast City.

Morgan Frost has the puck at his own blue line. And Connor Bard just says, screw it. And he attacks him. He takes the puck right off his stick. then just darts at like, you know, 24 miles an hour towards the net, makes a ridiculous backhand fake and to tuck in the forehand. Like, it was this, this complete package play. And that's what we're seeing from all three of them is these are becoming complete hockey players.

And they're all, you know, 20 years old, 19 years old. And there's, it's not just them going out and scoring a bunch. They're playing real hockey. Connor Bard's on pace to be like plus 50 this year with the Chicago Blackhawks. That is not a small feat. It's just incredible what all three of these guys are doing. And you've talked kind of tongue in cheek about the way people talked about Bedard and Celebrini a year ago, right? And that it was this, you know, the gap. But to the extent that

there was a gap, that's what it was. It's that Celebrini was a more complete player. You were noticing him on shifts that, you know, he wasn't even necessarily getting a scoring chance on. Butard now is a guy that you're noticing almost every time he's on the ice. And that is the difference. And that's the step that he's made. You're talking about the same thing with Jesse. Sorry, with Leo Carlson, Jesse. You know, he's that kind of player. So that's the key for all of them. That's the key to the staying power. And it's why, yeah, if Connor Bedard was in this place in the NHL scoring wise, but the Blackhawks were horrible because he was cheating for offense, I don't think we're doing this segment right now, frankly. But it's because all three of them

have done it this way. And as you know, you're, you know, Jeff Blasheel, who you covered for a number of years in Detroit, I don't know if he saw this, this was one of his buzzwords back then. He always talks about winning hockey, right? Oh, yeah. That's his umbrella term for good habits. And all he keeps talking about is how Connor Bedard is playing winning hockey. And all three of these guys are doing it. They're so engaged. They're becoming harder on the puck. They're more aggressive in the corners. They're creating plays for other people. They're creating plays for themselves. And now, look, look, their analytics are still a little ghastly. I think these are guys that are overperforming their numbers and are capable of that. Like we saw Patrick Kane for years.

Always had like a 40% XG and it didn't matter because you could just score from anywhere. Celebrini's at a 41% XG. He's at a 67% actual goals for. Badaar's at a 44.5xG. He's at a 63% actual goals for. Now, Leo Carlson, he's on a real hockey team. He's got Chris Kreider and Troy Terry on his line. He's got a 57 XG and a 63 goals for. We're all talking about Celebrity and Bedard. Leo Carlson might be the most impressive of the bunch right now. He's been so good. And I mentioned the game Saturday night here in Vegas. The Ducks came in. I came away from that game feeling completely different about Carlson as a player and the Ducks as a team because I looked at that game as, okay, so the Golden Knights had just had a horrific

performance the game before. They were not happy. And this is a veteran, strong, heavy team that when they have a bad game, they almost always come out the next game and are awesome. And then you add in the fact that it's a young Ducks team that they're leading the Pacific division. And the Golden Knights know that. The Golden Knights have owned this division for forever now. And they wanted to assert themselves. And I expected this, this is a young duck's team that's skilled. I expect the Golden Knights to come in and bully them. And it didn't happen at all. Leo Carl, He's not just skilled. He's big and strong. He's he's tough to beat along the walls. And he came in. He scored two goals. He had a three point night. He assisted on Jacob Truba's overtime winner. That, that Ducks team, and they did it without Lukash Dostal in net. It was Peter Morazica in net, who was excellent. But he's not even their star in net. This, this duck's team, I believe in them a lot more after that game. Because like I said, all the circumstances set up for that to be the game where the ducks are, where they turn into the pump.

They finally aren't this team that's been putting up seven goals. And they didn't just play with the Golden Knights. They were the better team for 60 minutes. It's interesting. Our friends at BetMGM have the heart odds. It's early. But as of Sunday night, the heart odds. Macklin-Cellibrini plus 2,000.

Connor Bedard plus 3,000. Those are longer shot, but still fairly high on the list. And to the extent that they're longshed, I imagine it's probably because if those teams don't make the playoffs, it's going to be hard for voters to vote for them. it's still ahead of Sydney Crosby and Austin Matthews, Las. Like that is the territory that these guys have put themselves in. Well, if you look, I mean, you know, when you see what the Ducks are doing, when you see what the Blackhawks, the Blackhawks have been,

they have had one bad game all year. They played 16 games. They got Blitz by Winnipeg in Winnipeg to start this trip, and it was terrible. They have been basically leading or tied entering the third period of just about every single other game they played. Like, this is a legit hockey team that's playing good hockey. And Bedard is so much at the forefront of that. Spencer Knight has been spectacular, and Lukash Dostal in Anaheim has been spectacular, but they're being led from ahead here by, you know, guys who are barely fully grown adults.

And that's, you know, so it's easy to look at that and go like, well, those are the most valuable people around their team right now. Like Sidney Crosby has, you know, getting Malkin with him, right? Austin Matthews has Willie Nealander with him. These guys are doing it as young guys, and it's, it goes back to what Jesse said. It's just so exciting to have new blood in the league. And it's odd to say that the ducks and blackhawks have new blood, because when I came and started doing this job, they were the old blood.

But it's been a long time. The Blackhawks have not made the playoffs properly since 2017. It's been a long time. So it's just exciting that we're not talking about the same teams, the same players year after year. We're always talking about how we want to see some new blood. Well, we're getting it, and these young guys are leading the way. I'll say this.

It's exciting now, but with how dominant they are and how good they look, I don't know how long it's going to be until we're sick of talking about these guys, because for 10 years from now, like we're going to be talking about these three players dominating the league for 10 years. And when are we going to get someone else other than these three? Because it, I mean, they look so good. And it's, this is not a fluke. Like you mentioned, this is not a, sometimes you just go around the net and you get a hot point streak and all of a sudden the goals are going in.

That is not what this is at all. This is three elite players leading teams and driving offense. Well, go ahead and sign me up for that problem. Well, let's take a quick break right there. We're going back with Jeremy Rutherford to talk about a team who has had not a lot going right to start this year. The St. Louis Blue will be right back. All right, we're back, and we are joined now by Jeremy Rutherford and St. Louis and J.R. It's not like we've never seen the Blues start slow before, but I do think this has been a particularly frustrating one for people in St. Louis, right?

I mean, they lose 10 out of 13 toward the end of that, right, as they're starting to look like maybe they're getting right? You know, they beat Edmonton, they shut out Buffalo. They blow a two-goal lead yesterday and fall flat again. So I guess let me just ask it to you. Like, what is going on there? Yeah, this has been something here in St. Louis, and not that anybody else around the league was projecting the Blues to be a cup contenders or even get a couple rounds into the playoffs. But I think a lot of people here in St. Louis especially thought that with what they did after the Four Nations tournament last year, winning the 12 straight games, sneaking into the playoffs, taking Winnipeg, the President's Trophy team to the brink of game seven and should have won it, if not for two, six on five goals, they would have been playing Dallas in the second. round, you upgrade at center, bringing in Pughes Souter, Nick Bukstad, when I say upgrade,

add depth to that position. And the strength of your team is the goaltending with Jordan Bennington, who did so well at the Four Nations and could be Team Canada's goalie for the Olympics. And Joel Hofer is the backup. It's a pretty good tandem. And this season has been anything, but what people here in St. Louis expected. Everything that I just mentioned as a possible strength for this team coming in, it's been the exact opposite. And so Max, you know, the Blues were in Detroit. They were up 4-0 on the Red Wings, and they coughed up that game. They lost last night with 1.6 seconds to go in regulation.

Seattle tied it and then won in overtime. So it's been just one difficult loss and one tough situation after the other for the Blues. Now, J.R., you wrote not that long ago, the story that no fan ever wants to read is that. It's really not this bad. The underlying numbers are great. So I took a dive into some of these underlying the numbers. They're hilarious. Like, this team has given up a league worst 3.88 goals against per game, despite being top 10 in shots against per game. So, like, they're suppressing shots, but giving up all these goals. And you look at some of the individual statistics, it's hilarious. Alexei Torabchenko

in nine games has a 52% expected goal share. The Blues have been outscored 8 to 1 with him on the ice. The save percentage with Toribchenko on the ice is 789. Cam Fowler is a 52xG, and they've been outscored 18 to 9 with him. How do you explain that? I mean, the goaltending is awful. Is it just the goaltending being awful? Yes, it's not just the goaltending. Sorry, it is a lot more than the goaltending.

And the best way that I can explain it, like, when you talk about putting, you know, your eye test to the numbers that you just mentioned, it's a situation where you will see the blues, go, down, set up shop in the offensive zone. They'll have a couple good opportunities, maybe a back door, and the forward at the net doesn't have his stick down or he can't bear down and convert the goal. And they'll have a couple great scoring opportunities, won't score. And then the puck goes back the other way. And literally, two seconds after the opposition crosses the blue line, it's in the back of their net.

Now, it's defense, it's the forward's getting back, it's the goal tending. It's been everything. It's just hard to comprehend. how some of those numbers can be so good, but yet the blues just aren't converting. And maybe you can easily chalk it up to, well, there's just not enough talent or enough skill, and they're just not executing. And, you know, that could be the case. But, you know, the goaltending for number one has been pretty good the past couple years. And you look at what it is now, an 862 save percentage.

862. That's 31st in the league. And it's been both goaltenders that have had trouble. Jordan Bennington and Joel Hofer. You know, it's a situation where it's almost like, which one do you go to? We just went to this guy and, you know, he got run out of the game. And, you know, now we're going back to Joel Hofer and he's having trouble stopping a beach ball. It's just been very difficult to comprehend how this team became this way so quickly. You've mentioned the goaltending multiple times and I just, I don't understand.

Going into this year, my hopes could not have been higher for this goalie tandem. And I do the goalie tier story where I talk to a handful of goalie coaches around the league and retired goalies. And these are people that know what they're talking about better than I do, better than anyone else does when it comes to goaltending. And they were all in on the St. Louis goaltending. Bittington got high score after high score. I had people saying that they think he could actually be in the Vez in a conversation for the first time just because they thought Montgomery was going to bring a more defensive kind of style of play to this team and maybe we'd see more consistency than we typically see out of Bennington even at his best. And then I've got other guys that, like, I had, I think, 37 goalies

in my list and I had plenty of coaches ask me, why is Joel Holford not on this list? Like, he's one of the best 30 goalies in the world. He would be, he'd be starting for some teams, but he just happens to be stuck behind a stud in Bennington. All of this, they have one of the best goalie coaches in the world. Dave Alexander, he's going to be the coach for Team Canada in the Olympics. He's been an excellent goalie coach in St. Louis. Everything was set up to be so good. And then it's just, it's just been a disaster. Like, do you think they need to turn to Hofermore? Or do you think they need to maybe stop with the rotating and give it to Bennington? And maybe that gives him confidence. Like, if it was up to you, how do you handle it, JR? Well, I think that you still have two good

goaltenders. And I think that both of these guys are capable of turning it around. But the team game has to be better. But these goalies have to come up with not just a big. save, but, you know, a number of saves to give the team confidence that they can go out and play their game, too, but it's just all the blues being a lack of connectedness. And, you know, I think when you talk about the expectations for this pair, and you're right, you know, and talk to similar people who have a very high opinion of these two goalies, but, you know, Jordan Bennington, you know, that's a lot of talk and pressure and expectation about him potentially being the team Canada goalie, right?

So he knows that he's got to come out and have a great start to the season. And Joel Hofer, I'm going to go back to, I think it was against the Chicago Blackhawks, Las. Hofer served up that pizza in front of the net. The Blackhawks score. And from that moment on, when he gave that up, it was about the next three to four games where he just couldn't stop anything that the teams were scoring on their first and second shots of the game, much less their first shot. And then so then it became a huge storyline.

Neither goalie is performing. You know, the team's not performing. And then it just, you know, snowballed from there. So, you know, I personally think that these two guys still can get the job done, but it's up to Jim Montgomery to do his job, which he is doing. I think he does a great job in terms of getting these guys back playing together like they were after the Four Nations turn. It's just completely disappeared. Jim Montgomery, as you guys know, is a pretty honest guy, and he said that I can't fathom, can't understand how it's hard to carry things over from year to year. We all know that, but how little has been carried over from last season.

So in the Central Division, like it feels like Colorado, Winnipeg, Dallas, those teams are just etched in stone, right? And it was supposed to be St. Louis contending for that next spot. What is the organizational level of concern? I know the Blues are kind of the poster children for you can come back from a really bad first two months of the season. There are everyone's, you know, idealized version of coming back from something like this. But Utah is looking really good. Chicago is looking very competitive. They're in a playoff spot right now. They've won three in a row. Minnesota's still there. Nashville is Nashville is Nashville. But like beyond the locker room, what is the organizational

level of concern that, oh crap, this division is passing us by here? Well, Mark, this is about the time of year that Doug Armstrong has a state of the union. He's done it the past two years. We thought that maybe this week would be the third year in a row where in November, Doug Armstrong is doing a state of the union, and no word of it yet. But I have to feel that Doug Armstrong knows that he is going to have to break up parts of this team. There's a lot of focus on the core here in St. Louis. When you talk about the core, it's Jordan Kairu. It's Robert Thomas. You have some of the aging guys in a Braden Shen. You have Colton Pereko on the back end. You have Jordan Bennington. Pavlovuchnevich considered part of that core, but he just signed a new six-year deal that kicked in

this year and he is not producing at all. Like his name, if you're putting together, list of guys who are not producing, is at the top of the list. And so I think if you look at the calendar, you can say, okay, it's November. Doug's probably got to wait a couple months, leaning at a trade deadline to be able to break this thing up.

I don't know that he's going to be able to wait that long. The blues, everybody here in St. Louis knows, they're trying to compete, be a contender. They're not tearing it down. It's not going to be a rebuild. They're not going to draft top five during this entire situation. situation. But at the same time, they're going to try to put a playoff team together and develop the young players like the Snuggaroods, Dvorskis, so on and so forth. That's a tough assignment

in the NHL. It really is. But that's the way they elected to go. So they've got to live with what they're trying to do. If it's go one round in the playoffs and it's picking 18th in the draft, then that's what it is. They're welcome to that. But when you get into a situation, where now it's two or three years in row, you've gotten off to the tough start. You have to have the state of the union every single November. I really think the Blues have to believe at this point, when I say Blues, I'm talking about management, that maybe everyone was kind of fooled with what this team did after the Four Nations run. They had their backs against the wall.

They knew the point total that they had to get into the playoffs. They did it. They really played well. You have to give them a ton of credit, but I think it probably fooled some people into thinking that you could add to that group and come back and make the playoffs this year. and it just obviously doesn't look like it's going to be the case. Well, I want to go back to what you said about the young players because that is one of the moves that they made over the weekend. Logan Mayu had struggled.

He gets sent down to Springfield. But that's an important player there. I mean, maybe not quite yet, but kind of maybe more symbolically important after they, you know, Zach Bullduke has the great rookie year last year. They trade him away for Logan Mayhew. And now here we are, you know, November 10th and he's in Springfield. Yes, that is a huge storyline here in St. Louis. And with Logan Mayu getting assigned to the American Hockey League this morning, it's going to be a big one as this week continues because people were already on Doug Armstrong and the management team for making the trade, sending Zach Bold Duke to the Montreal Canadians.

They felt like they had a plethora of wingers, of young wingers. When you talk about the Jake neighbors and the snuggerroods and Dvorsky being a center, you know, another forward young guy in that group, you have Otto Stenberg, just a number of young guys from these. last few drafts that they could afford to trade a Zach Bullduke. And they wanted to bring in the young right shot defenseman who was NHL ready. And Logan Mayu had spent a ton of time in the American Hockey League and seemed to prove just about all he could in the American Hockey League. So they made the trade for him. Well, they did that. And the hole immediately on the third line, right side with Zach Bulldoch leaving, was glaring. And they didn't have anybody to fill that. So that was the concern early on is like, who do you have to fill Zach Bullduke's spot?

Well, now, not only do you have a hold of fill, you don't have a defenseman because the defenseman you acquired and the deal is now in Springfield, Massachusetts. So, you know, all the criticism that the blues were getting for making this trade initially has been magnified with Mayu vastly underperforming. And now he needs what Doug Armstrong is calling a reset. J.R., you mentioned Bushnavich is maybe at the top of that list of guys who aren't producing. another guy who, I mean, he is producing Jordan Cairo. He's second on the team in goals, one behind neighbors. He's, I think, tied for the team lead in points. And yet the other night, he sat up there in the press box.

And that's not something we see from a player of his caliber. I guess for anyone not following St. Louis super closely, what happened to there and what do you expect out of obviously one of the most talented players on the team moving forward? Yeah, Jesse. And, you know, his name came up in trade talks right over the summer and, you know, where the blue is going to trade him before his no trade clause. kicked in on July 1st. He and Robert Thomas signed those deals a few years ago and turned 27 years old and their time in the league. Those no trades kicked in on July 1st.

More talk, obviously, about Jordan Kairu than there was about Robert Thomas. But with Kairu, the interesting thing about him getting scratched to me, guys, is this. And I think this, you know, people who follow whatever team around the league, I think this is what interesting, what Jim Montgomery said, is that you can look at the stat sheet and you can say, okay, well, this guy isn't producing, he should be the healthy scratch. Well, what Jim Montgomery told us was that each guy has a role in the team and they have certain traits that they need to bring to the team for the team to be successful. And if they're not performing those traits, then that's what we're missing. And that guy needs to realize, and I'm going to use Kyru as the example here, obviously, because he was the healthy scratch.

But what Moni said was that he creates anxiety with his skating for the opposition. And he does. You guys have seen him. Once he gets the wheels going, it just makes people, you know, tremble, right? You're like, oh, he's going to beat me wide. He's going to beat me up the middle. And he wasn't doing that.

And that's one of his, you know, that's one of his, you know, best attributes. And so he had an eight-game point streak early in the season. If you're going to pick a guy to healthy scratch a couple nights ago, you know, it would have been Pavel Bouchnevich. It would not have been Jordan Kairu. But they want Jordan Kairu to understand that, you can do X, Y, and Z, and you're not doing it. We're going to sit you, and hopefully when you come back,

you'll be ready to play like that. Now, maybe they have to address that same situation with Pavlov Bucenevich, but in terms of fulfilling the role that you have on the team, they felt like Kairu was a guy who was coming up short on that, and that's why he got the healthy scratch. They do have Calgary up next on the schedule. I mean, if that's any consolation, that should be a game that St. Louis has a chance to get right in, especially at home.

But we will see. Thanks so much for doing this. We're going to take a quick break. Be right back with Peter Baugh and talk about the Metro. All right, we're back and we're joined now by Peter Baugh. And Peter, I want to start with the team that you cover probably the most closely. You were in Detroit this week covering the Rangers and they looked really good. That's been a common story for them when they go on the road this season.

And they go home and they look like kind of another team entirely. So I want to start there and get your take on what is behind this whole Jekyll Hyde dynamic for the Rangers based on what arena they're playing in. It's truly one of the strangers starts to a season. I've covered. I think a lot of last year, I was banging the drum that the Rangers weren't a very good hockey team. A lot of people maybe thought they were going to turn it around after their middle of the season skid thought that this was a good team just kind of going through a tough stretch. And I was very adamant that I didn't think they were very good. This year, I don't think they're an amazing team, but I feel completely differently. I think this is a solid hockey team. And maybe that's just because

the most recent time I saw them in person was on the road when they looked really solid against the Red Wings. But a lot of their underlying numbers are really strong. I just think this is a team that is really struggling to finish. And it's hard to explain. Where is the offense going to come from here? Because I feel like, you know, point per game guys are growing on trees this year. Every team's got a couple of them at the stage of the season. And the Rangers don't have anyone even close.

Like they got like, I think Adam Fox at their leading score, something like 11 points in 16. Yeah, Taylor Radish is their leading goal score right now. Yeah, that's not idea. So like where, like you say that the underlying numbers say they're better than this and they just can't finish. Where is the finish going to come from? Who is going to lead this team offensively? That's a great question. And I think one that, I mean, the obvious answer is Artemmy Panarin.

It needs to start with Panarin. And he hasn't been very good this year. He's not finishing his chances as as frequently as he was last year. He's generating a lot of offensive looks, but they're not all going in the net, other than in two games. He had a big game in Detroit that Max and I were at together. and he had a big game in Montreal in October. But it hasn't been working for Panera. And he mentioned all our co-worker Vince, Vince Mercagliano,

that some of the pressure maybe of the contract is weighing on him, of him being on the last year of his deal. He said he doesn't think about it during the games, but he was kind of musing that maybe that's on his mind. But when you look at sources of offense, it's got to be him and it's got to be J.T. Miller. Those are the two guys that are most capable of bringing offense or at least have the career highs to show that it is,

the Rangers certainly hope is in there somewhere. For the record, in the athletic hockey fantasy team, I protected both J.T. Miller and Artemmy Panarin and I'm O'N5. Well, J.T. Miller does seem like one of the obvious answers to that question, right? I mean, this is why they traded for him because he could score a certain kind of offense that they're missing, you know, be hard around the net. J.T. Miller's been, you know, one of the highest scoring players in this league over the last

several years. So he certainly would be one of the candidates to drive that offense. But, you know, Peter, at times this year, I've tried to kind of draw parallels between the Rangers and the Winnipeg Jets in terms of reliance on the goalie. You know, the forward situation, they have some good top six lines, but maybe not the world's deepest team. I know some might debate that on the jet side, you know, but outside of really Adam Lowry, I don't really find their bottom six that threatening either. But it, so the jets are finding a way to get it done. The Rangers really haven't. And I look at that and I just say, well, yeah, they don't have their Kyle Connor. They don't have their Mark Schifley production yet from Panera and Miller, who to me are the

obvious guys. Yeah, and I mean, the interesting thing, and this is a much more complicated thing than I'm about to make it sound like. But it's funny about them wanting net front scoring and all of that. Chris Kreider does a lot of those things, and he's off to a really good start down in Anaheim. Now, I think, to be fair to the Rangers, they don't get Vladislav Gavakov without shipping away Criter. There's a lot of, it was going to be hard to repair some of the stuff that went wrong with Crider and Trouba last year. And so I think that that's probably an unfair thing to say, but at the same time, they're definitely missing goal scores. And I think some of this is going to

balance out, but I think that ultimately it's a big concern. If they make the playoffs, that is, I think, perhaps the biggest thing that would separate them for being a true contender. What do you think about this team outside of like the lack of goal scoring? You mentioned the underlying numbers. I think they're like third in the league in goals, like expected goal share. All the underlying metrics say this team is like dominating possession, dominating the chances. And yet the games I've watched, I feel like Jonathan Quick has been excellent in that. Igor Shasturkin has been excellent.

And yet they're giving up a bunch of goals and they're not winning games. Is it just the lack of goal scoring or do you think that there are other issues to like, like you said, you think they're a better team? Do you think they're better everywhere? I think defensively they are infinitely better from last season. Last season was at points just a total mess on the defensive side. And this year, they look a lot sharper under Mike Sullivan. I've been really impressed with what Mike Sullivan has brought. I think the team is more structured. I think it's defending harder. And maybe some of that is contributing to the offense. Maybe they're not taking as many chances and getting as many golden looks. But I think that, defensively, this is a much better team than it was a year ago. And the guy we were talking about walking out of the building, Peter, that night Friday, was Will Borgon, who I think has been obviously tremendous for them. That's why they lock him up.

But I think that can be their identity. You go get Gavrakov, and now you got this Sousy Borgon pair that, you know, on paper I wasn't sure what to make of it. Seeing it live, I think it's exactly what you want your second pair to be. So I think that's the identity they almost have to lean even further into because that is where their strength is. Yeah. And it's going to be interesting to see how this team looks with Gabe Perrault in the lineup. They just called him up. And we were talking about the need for an offensive spark.

And that's going to be the Rangers are surely, they're not calling Gabe Perra up for defense. They're calling him up to get an offensive spark. And that's going to be a really important factor for them going forward because they're searching for offense, especially at home. Let's head out east to Elmont hit another team in the Metro that. The Islanders, I don't know what to make of them right now. Horvatt looks like a true number one center right now. Elias Sorokin is starting to come around. Matthew Schaefer is still maybe the most fun guy in the league to watch.

It's so hard to tell anything with the standings that are this bunched up. Does this feel like a playoff contender to you? I mean, Jersey's doing what we expected Jersey to do. Carolina's doing what they always do. Pittsburgh, it's hard to make heads of tails of. Can the islanders make a run at this? Well, Max and I were talking on the drive back from the Wings Rangers game the other night. We were discussing how there are just a lot of spots up for grabs in the east.

How many teams do you guys think are true? You know you would bet a huge sum of money on to make the playoffs. There's not, there's maybe five or six, and that leaves a lot of spots up for grabs. So I think there are teams like the Islanders that we might look up in March and suddenly they're still in this. What intrigues me about the Islanders and something that I think that Matthew Darsh is going to have to think long and hard about is what do you do if you're kind of in the mix come the trade deadline? Do you, it's probably going to be a seller's market again because there's a lot of these teams who are going to be fighting. Do you capitalize on some guys who other teams are going to have a lot of interest in, whether it's Anders Lee, whether it's Pajot, there's a lot of these players that they could probably move for significant returns. And I'm curious, under Lou Lamarillo, it felt like every year they were taking a bit more of a short-term approach of trying to make the playoffs, trying to maximize what that year could be.

And I'm curious under Matthew Darch, especially now that you have this foundational piece in place with Matthew Schaefer and you have some key forwards. Bo Horvett looks like a true number one center like you were saying. How much of a long-term view do you take? Or do you go for it and think that you have a real shot? Peter, you talked about how the Rangers have kind of underperformed what the advanced stats would lead you to believe where they would be. Another team along those same lines of the Washington Capitals, and they were obviously one of the breakout stories of last year and all the success they've had under Spencer Carberry. They're another team that you look at the standings, you're not blown away. You're kind of like, oh, they're off to a slow start.

You pull up the underlying numbers. This looks like one of the most impressive territorial teams in the league. Yeah, and it's another team that has a coach that I really trust Spencer Carberry has been excellent. since he took over there. What interests me with them is they had so many guys last year that had career years, or in Alex Ovechkin's case, not a career year, but certainly an uptick in production from what we saw in the few years before. And so it's interesting seeing if some of these guys maybe are just having slow starts, but who of these players are going to be able to rebound and have similar production to what they had last year and how many of these

guys are kind of regression candidates who are going to take little steps back. And if they all take little steps back, the capitals might struggle. So they are off to an interesting start. And I think they'll be okay, but I definitely don't think they're going to be as good as they were last year, even when they kind of get going a little. I'll tell you what, Protos is the guy I'm not picking to have regression. That dude is a monster. And he is big, that he is a big, big kid. And he just the way he releases his wrist shot, he's so big. He just kind of. of leans on it a little and the stick turns into rubber and it just fires it off. Like he's got a shot. Like I can't think of another player in the league that shoots the puck

like him. Yeah, he's really fun. I like him a lot. But McMicha's had a bit of a downturn. Like, is he going to get it going again? We'll have to see. But it's, it's an interesting team. Tom Wilson's had a really good year. But Ovechkin hasn't really gotten it going. He got to 900, but he hasn't done much more other than that. So, and this team needs goals. So we'll see if they're, they're going to be able to find that from some of the guys who were really good from them last year. No surprise. BetMGM has Carolina minus 120 to win the Metro. Devils are the next team up after that at plus 210. I assume nobody's got any problems with that.

But after that, it is the Rangers and the Capitals. Sorry, the Capitals and the Rangers in that order. Capitals plus 950, Rangers plus 1,400. If each of you had to pick a team to upset that Apple cart, upset that top four and squeeze into the top four of the metro, who would it be less? You know, I'm, I kind of lean islanders just because of Ilya Serochin. I just kind of think that that's the kind of guy you can, we've seen the islanders scratch and claw their way into the playoffs a hundred times.

It's kind of their whole thing. But the team I'm most curious about, maybe in the entire league is still the Pittsburgh Penguins. I have no idea what to make of these guys. They've, they've lost four of their last five. They're kind of coming back down to Earth a little. You start looking at their numbers, though. And like, this is the time of year where I'm really looking hard at PDO.

I know it's kind of an old school stat at this. point. But that's usually when you have only a 15 game sample size or so, it's usually pretty telling. They have an exactly 100 PDO. They are exactly where they should be. And right now, they're in a playoff spot. I don't know how much I believe that. I don't trust their goaltending at all. And their goaltending has been good so far. But I just, I've learned better than to bet against Sidney Crosby at this point. I totally believe in their scoring. Like, I believe in Crosby's ability to do this for the rest of the season. I believe in Malkin. I believe in the young kids that they've got coming up, but I think you nailed it with.

When I look on goals saved above expected and both Archer Shilovs and Tristan Jari are near the top, it's like, I don't know how long those names are going to be at the top of that. I little hesitant on that side of things, but it's like maybe they can just outscore teams. That seems fun to watch. Like they have wild games. They blow three nothing leads like it's nothing. The Penguins have been so entertaining to watch. Yeah, and Kendall, Kendall, Kendall is he's been a revelation for.

for them. What a pick. And he's been an awesome, awesome addition. So it's, it's fun to see. I really hope it lasts in there playing meaningful games because I want to see Crosby and Malkin and Lattang and Carlson and big games. And they need some of those young guys if they're going to do this. And they're getting contributions from them, which is exciting. I can hear all of our fans and all of our listeners in Montreal right now going,

no, no, no, we want Crosby in March. any buyers on the Philadelphia Flyers i mean point per game Trevor Zegris Matvey Mitchcoff hasn't even really gotten going to full level yet and and yet here are the Philadelphia Flyers knocking on the door and a coach that seems to get the most out of his players in Rick Tocket so there we we talked about them the other night too i I struggle to see them having quite enough I kind of feel the penguins I I fear will come back to earth as As Jesse said with their goaltending, it's hard to see that continuing and they give up a lot. And the Flyers, I just, I look at their roster and I'm not sure if there's enough talent there.

Including in net. I mean, that might be the biggest flaw of the whole operation, Jesse. For sure. Peter, you're a big coach guy, huh? Well, you know, it's hard not to be when you see the Rangers go from a poorest defensive team last year to to really defensively structured this year with a lot of the same personnel. It matters. It matters if you have a good one.

It doesn't matter if you have a bad one. Right. Yeah. I think the flyers are just going to overachee for like what. That's what Talk it does. It reminds me of when he was in Arizona. Like they're not going to be good enough to beat any good teams, but they're a pain in the ass to play.

Like you, you don't look forward to playing against them. They're going to be difficult. They're going to forecheck you. But at the same time, like when the cream rises to the top, I just don't see the flyers being there. My question for Peter and for you guys is we haven't really talked about the top two teams because they're just like the devils and Carolina. They're just kind of rolling. Which of those two teams are you more confident in right now? Like the devils, we're finally seeing them healthy. They're exciting. They've got exciting players. Carolina, it's almost not exciting because they've just been doing this for so long. And then they always fall flat in the playoffs. Like if you had to pick a team to hit your wagon to right now between the top two teams that are rolling like we expected, who do you like better?

Well, it depends. Are you talking about to win the The Division? Are you talking about to win the Stanley Cup? Very differently. To win the Stanley Cup. I'm picking New Jersey then. Until Carolina proves it.

And we've all been, we've all seen it happen. We've hit our wagon to them and then, you know, got knocked off course pretty easily in the third round. Like, look, Carolina is a great team with a great system that works to a degree. And until they prove otherwise, I'm going to put my chips behind Jack Hughes, who is maybe my favorite player in the league to watch,

maybe one of the five best players in the world. I like their goaltending. Jake Allen showed that even, you know, they have two good goalies. Jake Allen was really strong when Markstrom was hurt. And that's a team that I believe in, Nico Heeshire, it's just top to bottom.

I think I would put New Jersey over Carolina right now. Big fan of what the devils have done in the postseason then, Las? Yeah, I was going to say, at least it's something new, right? At least it's something new. They haven't lost as many times. Their last two times in the playoffs, do you know who beat them?

the Carolina Hurricanes. Fool me 17 times. Shame on me. So I like both of those teams a lot. I think they both have really good rosters. The hurricanes to me, I loved their offseason. Getting Eilers, getting Keandre Miller. I think Keandre Miller is a perfect fit in their system. Couldn't agree more.

I think that that team is, yes, we can say they haven't done it, but a lot of these teams haven't done it. And the hurricanes have consistently put themselves in position to have a chance. So they have experience. They have really good players. And I think they've got a little bit more firepower than they did last year, certainly, when they, obviously they traded Natchez, who was a big offensive producer for them, brought in Rantin. That didn't work out. And they took the long-term approach and went for Stankov. And so they, that wasn't a team that had a lot of firepower last year, whereas this year, it's still not a team. They don't have McKinnon and

McCar and guys like that, but they, they have Eilers, they have Keandre who provides a bit of offense. And they've got all these young guys who I think are going to keep taking steps like Jackson Blake, like Logan Stankov. And so to me, Carolina's the one I probably hitched my wagon two of those two teams. Though I think that that would be an excellent playoff series and I think both of them are really good teams. I just trust Carolina's infrastructure more. I do too. But how many times have we all picked at the beginning of the season, Dallas versus Carolina. It doesn't stop you with doubt. How many times are we going to do it? Carolina. Look at the last teams to win the cup, though. This is how it goes.

Like Tampa Bay was the team that just couldn't get over the top. And then they finally did. Vegas was the same way. Colorado kind of was the same way. Like, I feel like these teams that win the Cup are the Florida. They lost in the final. I don't know. I feel like Carolina is now, but I will say, I'll say that. I think Carolina is probably the team. I believe in more. But then I will also say, Bruce Cassidy, the Golden Knights just played Carolina twice in a couple of games. And he said something super interesting that like we're always wondering like why does Carolina not get done the playoffs? And he gave such a good answer here. And he said like they, they pressure you so much all over the ice that you just have no time. And when you're not used to it and it's like once out of 82

games, it just catches you off guard. And by the time you can adjust to it, it's too late and you've lost. They've got a three nothing lead and it's over. In a seven game series, you adjust to it. And it, and all of a sudden, their superpower, they're pressuring that just just overwhelms teams, just completely disintegrates. And that, that's, would lend you to believe that this isn't just a good team that hasn't gotten over the top. There's an actual reason they aren't winning in the playoffs, which is a little more troubling if you're a Carolina. And what's the big knock on Rod Brindamore? He does not make adjustments during series.

This is exactly what happens every time they go up against a really good team. Yeah, but if we're talking about Metro Division teams, who's gotten farther in recent years? I mean, they've made the Eastern Conference final twice. The Rangers have made the Eastern Conference final twice, but certainly have had lower lows in between those than or between the then and now than than Carolina has. So I don't know. I think it's, I get, I understand the, well, they haven't done it before, but it only takes once. You only have to do it once to be remembered. And, and I'm not picking Carolina. Actually, you know, I did, I think I did, I always forget who I pick in the preseason. We always are a bit Carolina. We always,

yeah, I think I probably did pick them going into the season. I just, I really liked their off season. And they've got, I feel like they've got more things they can trade if they want to, to upgrade some more at the deadline. Like, I saw them recently, and that team had, it was down Kandre Miller, it was down Jacob's Slavin, and it was down another defenseman. I'm blanking on who. Oh, Augusta Spear. And they played the Rangers, who I know the Rangers can't score at home, but they had

three rookie defensemen in the lineup. And those guys, they kind of got picked on a little bit for probably the first 10 to 15 minutes, and then they just survived for the rest of the game and were solid. Like, I feel like they can just plug anyone in there and they'll be a sufficient player. And that is so impressive to me. And I think you kind of just have to keep getting there, keep getting kicks at the can and eventually maybe you break through or maybe you don't. And it's a bummer.

But I like what they're doing and I like their process. I'm with you. I'm on Carolina as well. That is going to do it for us. Thanks for listening to this episode of The Athletic Hockey Show. Remember to subscribe on YouTube at YouTube.com slash at the Athletic Hockey. show to watch full episodes. A couple of Shons, a Frankie, plenty of hockey, all coming at you Wednesday.

We'll talk to you soon.