The Athletic Hockey Show - Bob McKenzie on NHL Draft changes, Sutter returns to Flames & ESPN returns to NHL Hockey

Episode Date: March 10, 2021

Bob McKenzie, Hockey Hall of Fame broadcaster and writer joins Scott and Pierre on the Two Man Advantage edition of The Athletic Hockey Show. The guys discuss proposed changes to the NHL draft, living in the COVID-19 world, one year later and the boys share their memories on the life of Walter Gretzky.Scott and Pierre also take a deep dive into Darryl Sutter returning to Calgary to coach the Flames, the NHL signing a 7 year broadcast contract with ESPN and they take your questions on the Buffalo Sabres, Toronto Maple Leafs and Ottawa Senators in our weekly mailbag segment. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey everybody, Scott Burnside back for another edition of the Athletic Hockey Show, two-man Advantage. Pierre LeBrun, joining from Toronto, as always. Pierre, huge day for us. I've got tons of news to talk about and legendary Bob McKenzie going to join us today. I'm pretty pumped. The Bobfather. That's it, exactly. I got up early. I worked out a little bit, you know, trying to get in shape for when Bob comes on. Oh, come on. Yeah, all right. I did.

You're into yoga these days. days, though. I'm proud of you. That's awesome. Twice a week. Yep. Yeah. I'm pretty limber these days. There's no doubt about that. We'll have some questions later in the show. Ask the dorks, as per usual. There's a ton of news to get to this morning. So let me ask you this. Where would you like to start? Great piece by you on Daryl Sutter and his return to the Calgary Flains. They will play their first game under their new old head coach, Daryl Sutter on Thursday night against the Hab. What about the ESPN deal? I seem to remember that broadcasting company. I had to look them up.

But yeah, it seems like a reputable deal. But I know you guys talked about it on Insider Trady and our good pal, Frank Ceravali, had some of the details. Looks like a seven-year deal that could be announced as early as today. Four cups between 22 and 28 and upwards of 1,100 games, which I did the math.

Almost 170 games per year, about 165 a game. games per year on average over the course of seven years. Where do you want to start? You pick. Let's go. Yeah, where was this when we were writing there? Well, you know what is? They say all the money they saved from icing us, they've now put towards a broadcast

deal with the NHL. So, and it really, good, really good news, I think, for our American friends, you know. And by the way, I think NBC's on a terrific job over the past decade. so it's not a slight on them at all. But, you know, it still is a fact that the, you know, when I was at ESPN, nine years, you were there, what, 13, 14 years, got it? 13 years. Yeah, 13 years.

Got treated so well. I mean, I had nothing but fond memories from my time there. But the fact remains that it shuts an institution. And you walk into an airport lounge, you walk into a, you know, a restaurant bar, you name it anywhere in the United States. That's the channel that's all. regardless of the programming. I mean, it's just, that's the power of ESPN 24-7. And I think for the NHL to be back on that screen is huge. And, you know, it just goes to show, you know, it was

from all accounts kind of a bitter divorce years and years ago, but, you know, a lot of time has passed. And this was smart of the league to try to get back into it. And, you know, good for ESPN, which has bigger properties, let's be honest, especially the NFL, but to want to have hockey back, that's tremendous. Yeah. Well, and I mean, your point is a good one. We joke about it a little bit. But you know from being there as long as you were that there were so many people within the organization that are true hockey people. Like in how many times town hall meetings, when are we getting hockey back?

It's not something, you know, I mean, I think there's this narrative that all the ESPN, no one cares about hockey there. And that's simply not the case. And in fact, Steve Levy and I traded text this morning. Suggested maybe getting the band back together again. But I texted with Steve last night as well. And I'm super happy for him. I mean, you know, John Boots, Bucci Gras, Bucci. Barry Melrose. Yeah, very Linda Cohen. I mean, all those people that remain loyal to the sport, you know, they didn't have the sport to broadcast for so many years. I'm happy for all those people. Yeah. Let's move on then. Darrell Sutter, you know, what's interesting, I don't know if you remember.

We got a question last week about what was going on with Jeff Ward and the Flames. Right. The questioner had mentioned Daryl Sutter. And lo and behold, he returns from, I think it was, his place is out near Red Deer, his farm. And I loved your piece. You talked to Dean Lombardi, who, of course, brought him to Los Angeles. similar kind of thing, right? Darrell had been away from the game.

Almost 10 years ago, December 2011, I have to go back and look at when that happened. Right. And here's the thing. I remember that this is, I remember distinctly being at ESPN going, oh my God, really? That's the best the Kings can do, right? Like to recycle, you know, because Darrell had been away from the game for some time when Dean Lombardi tapped him to come in and take over for Terry Murray, I believe, in in Los Angeles. and I, Timmy was like, oh, really, you know, and of course, two cups, a trip to the Western Conference Final,

and really such a catalyst to, you know, to what happened in Los Angeles and making it a destination spot, you know, for free agents and all that kind of stuff. Were you surprised when it, when the word came out that Bradford Living had decided that they were going back to a guy who was so familiar to that team, coach them to within one win of a Stanley Cup in 2004. What was your first take on that? So yes and no on the surprise factor. Yes, because, as I mentioned last week, you know, the Flames, Brad Tree Living had waited a long time before committing to Jeff Ward in the offseason to remove the interim tag.

And I just felt that, well, you know, he must have really investigated that decision. And so you've got to give him a year, if you're doing that. I mean, it's not like the day after the playoffs ended that they removed the interim tag for Jeff Ford. I mean, the Bradtree Living took quite a while to get to that decision. So I felt based on that, that you probably owe Jeff Ward the rest of the year. On the other hand, not surprised because one of the reasons why the decision on Jeff Ward

was kind of delayed in the offseason, Scotty. I had heard rumblings that I wasn't in a position to report, but I had heard at some level and I sort of filed that away that Darryl Sutter was mentioned internally as an option back in the offseason. So, you know, when you know that and you file that away and then this happens, you're like, oh, okay, so they went back to it.

And, you know, I think this is going to be really good. I mean, Darryl Sutter's track record and straightening out a team is pretty significant. You know, the stories that, you know, the comments I got from Jared Stoll and Justin Williams, about playing for Darrell in LA. You know, they both, you know, I obviously interviewed them separately, Scotty,

and they both ended up going to a place where it was like he ends up, you know, you end up pushing yourself to a level that you didn't think you had. That's what both players said about Darrell Sutter, which is interesting. And so now that's the challenge for him. And they had a heck of a first practice by all accounts on Tuesday in Calgary. A lot of skating. A lot of skating. And so, you know, the easiest way to summarize playing for Daryl Sutter, I think, is you're either all pulling on the same rope or you're out.

And so let's find out now, you know, there's been some inconsistent play at times from Drone Gludrow from Sean Monaghan from other top players that are getting the line now. No question about it. You and I chatted a little bit yesterday just in general about, you know, the, you know, You mentioned, you know, it's been 10 years, right, since, since Daryl Sutter came in, a decade passes. We have had moments of reckoning in terms of the coaching world. How do coaches relate to players? What is, where is the line? What is acceptable?

What's unacceptable? And I'm not suggesting that, you know, where Daryl might have stood on that line a decade ago. But where, how do you think that transition is going to be for Daryl Sutter? or can he just be the same guy he was in L.A.? Or do you think he's going to have to find, maybe find a different line for himself, given the sensitivities. And I don't mean that in a negative thing,

but just I think people are more aware of, well, wait a minute, you can't say that to a person. You can't do that to a person if you're a coach, all those kinds of things. How much adjustment do you think will have to be done by Daryl Sutter on this? Yeah, I asked that question in my article and because I think it's, you have to ask it for any coach coaching today.

I mean, I got to think Joel Quenville and the amazing success he's having in Florida right now was probably a bit of a softer touch now than he was 15 years ago, right? I mean, all these veteran coaches right now that are still in the game. And I think for Daryl Sutter, we know from talking the players over the years, you know, there's the odd sarcastic jab that he could be cutting. You know, he tries to make his point at times with players. players. And I think, you know, in today's kind or gentler world, I think you'll have to rein that in a bit. But at the end of the day, there still is place in the game, I think, for some

tough love. It just has to be done with respect, I think, and trust and so on. So, you know, I think you'll find that line. It's just that the line has moved from a decade ago. No question about it. Yeah. Another thing that came up this week, and I know you've been following it the whole notion of A, when the draft will happen, will it be moved, will they run two back to back next off season, all those things, does look like it's going to stay where it was originally scheduled in July after this season gets done. And some discussion about the draft lottery. I have to tell you, I became infuriated when I was reading about the potential changes

to the draft lottery and the tinkering on which teams can get move up or move down. and who could be in the top two spots. And I have to tell you, it enrages me when I look at this. And I'm like, why do we need to make this so complicated? It's like we, GMs want it, they want it all, right? You don't want teams to tank, but you want, you don't want to, you want your bad teams to get a good pick. And to me, I feel that they've made it so complicated or they're headed down that road where it's so complicated and it's already complicated that it's like what to what end? Like, you basically are going to alienate 90% of your fans who won't be able to understand what's going on in terms of the lottery.

Anyway, that's my rant on. I hate that. I did not have the same effect on me. I was sort of indifferent, quite frankly. You know, I think, you know, I wrote about the potential draft lottery changes, I think about a month ago. And so we finally got them. Although, we should note that the memo that the league sent the governors and the ensuing conversation they had about it on Monday's Court of Governors' Court of Governors' call. There was no vote taken on it. So,

I mean, I think it's where it's headed because the league doesn't draft memos for the heck of it, but I guess it's still TBD. You know, as I wrote a month ago, Detroit, you know, Detroit going into that lottery

last summer, clearly the worst team in a league in an organic rebuild. And I use that word on purpose, organic. They're not tanking. They were 25 straight years in the playoffs and paid the price by having zero zero in their system, right? So they're going through a real rebuild after trying to win forever,

and they did win, of course, a bunch of titles. It did not sit well with a lot of people who were neutral in this. Forget the Red Wings. I mean, obviously, you know, it's hard for them not to be biased. But other people on the sidelines have told me that was the tipping point, that Detroit goes into that lottery and you know pretty much they're going to pick forth. That doesn't make sense. like they should have a better shot at the first pick.

And so I'm okay with the changes based on that. The fact that we're going from if this goes through from 16 to 11 teams that can win the lottery, etc., that'll help the bottom basement teams a bit. I will say I was surprised at the recommendation of a team only being able to win a lottery twice or a five-year period. First of all, that's something David Boyle brought at the table, as you know, a decade ago at the GM meeting. in Florida, you know, based on the Orlers winning the lottery all the time back then. And it never really got favor. And I'm surprised that it finally has because I never got the sense that Gary Bettman liked the idea.

So that's interesting to me that that found its way in, but not the other one. I mean, I think, yes, you want to avoid tanking, but at some point you can't penalize a team like Detroit that actually does need help and needs help for legitimate reasons. Yeah, I don't know. It just seems like you're splitting it and making it more complicated than it needs to be. I mean, you know, okay, then if that's a case, then just go back to it. And if you finish 32nd, starting next year, of course, and Seattle, if you're 32nd, then you get the first pick. Then, you know, and now you're, okay, well, we don't want everyone who misses the playoffs to have a shot at it. So we'll cut it back.

Now it'll be 11. And, boy, you can't do it. You can't get being the top two or you can't win a lottery twice in five years. Like who you will need to absolutely. Calm down. Honestly. You're upset. You're upset because you're still live in Atlanta after all these years.

And the thrashers, you know, the thrashers one year didn't have a great pick at first overall. Is that what this is about? No, it's not. It has nothing to do with Patrick Stephan or anything like that. I just think, I just think, you know what? I don't know if you remember this. And I don't think Ron Hexel would mind because, you know, what was a long time ago, you and I were walking in Buffalo at the draft. think. We were actually walking toward the, we're going out to dinner and we ran into Ron

Hextel. We were talking about the draft lottery and it might have been the year that Dallas moved up to three. Right. They drafted a ice going to. But I just remember it was very casual conversation and Ron was in Philly and I was like, you know what? I honestly, I would be okay with if you miss the playoffs, then all those teams go into the hat. You draft. You draft. You know, you just pull them out. No, no weighted to it. Just if you miss, you're all in the same boat and you get the same chance as winning it. Now, you know, like I just think, I don't know, it just makes me angry that the league will make this so complicated that they will, that they will alienate a huge portion of their fan base who won't under, he won't be able to actively say, oh, this is good for us.

Well, oh, wait a minute. No, we had a first pick or no, was that six years. I just think it's too complicated. Make it simple. All right. I'm literally standing up now. Let's talk about it with our guest, Bob McKenzie. All right. I'm all for that. All right, everybody. As promised, joined now by Robert Malcumson McKenzie.

Bob McKenzie. I hope that's right in Wikipedia. I hope that's actually your given full name, Bobby. That's it. You got it. Robert Malcolmson McKenzie. See, you know what? It sounds like someone who could have been the footman for Sir Johnny McDonald back in the 1860s or a Lord or something like that. Tell me the origins of Robert Malcolmson McKenzie. How'd that happen? Well, Robert, I was easy because my dad was a Robert and he decided to go. And his dad was a Robert too. So I'm not doing the Robert McKenzie, the third thing. But nevertheless, here we are. Malcolm Finn was my grandmother from Ireland, her maiden name. And in fact, I share it with, there's a far more famous Malcolmson than me.

You ever watch Ray Donovan? Yes, of course. Okay, you know his wife Abby? Yeah. Her name is Paula Melchampton. And she's my second cousin. I think you told me this once, Bob. You're right.

Yeah, she's quite an actor. She's in Deadwood, too. Have you ever seen Deadwood? What a fantastic show that is. Yes. That's awesome. Anyways, yeah, her grandfather and my grandmother were brother and sister, and I've never met her, and she wouldn't have a clue who I am.

And nevertheless, we share the same name. So anyways, there's the family history. Robert from my dad, Malcumson, from my mom's side of the family, and my dad's surname was McKenzie. Well, she should know who you are. You've got more Twitter followers in her, Bob. I don't think she's even got a Twitter. Listen, thanks for joining us. And earlier in the show here, Scotty got on quite a rant about the potential draft

lottery changes that... Yeah, I heard the tell you that. I'm okay now. I'm sitting down, by the way. I calm down. And I should note, again, that the memo that went out Monday that we all read, but the Board of Governors actually didn't vote on it Monday. So I guess it's TBD, but as Bob knows, and Scotty knows, normally when a memo goes

though it's got about a 90% chance of eventually happening. I'm wondering what your take is on it, Bob. Well, yeah, you're right. The executive committee has recommended approval of this. When the executive committee recommends something, it almost always, I think the number is probably higher than 90%. The NHL is not in the habit of putting things down on paper that can get into the public domain,

which this obviously did, and then turn it around and saying, oh, yeah, you know, a bunch of teams didn't like it, so we're not going to do it. That would be highly unusual. So as I break it down here, and you have to bear with me here, because I'm semi-retired now

and I'm a lot slower than I used to be, the first salient point is that the draft lottery is only for the first two spots in the draft, not the first three. We'll call that the Detroit Red Wing rule, because the Red Wings, of course, were the worst team last year. They had the first overall pick going into the lottery,

and in a bizarre year where, you know, a lot of other things happened with the pandemic, they ended up picking forth and teams that were, you know, virtually were playoff teams when the pandemic hit, a year ago now, as a matter of fact. Right. You know, Detroit dropped so far out of the mix that, you know, in what was perceived at the time, and again, these things are wrong a lot of the times, but it was perceived as a three-player draft at the elite level at the top. But in any case, so that's the Detroit Red Wing Rule. I'm fine with that.

I don't have a big, big problem. And I honestly, and I said this before, when the NHL was fooling around with their draft lottery for the return to play, I said that they should not put all three spots up for grabs. It should only be the first spot up for grabs because a team like Detroit had earned that low standing. Now, the next one is, while all play non-playoff teams continue to participate in the draft, the maximum move up should be limited to 10 selections. So all they're doing there is ensuring that those four or five teams or two or three or four teams that were right on the cusp of making the playoffs. Can't win out.

They're not getting the first or second overall. Yeah. I don't have a problem. That's a 16 to 11 rule, right? That's the new threshold. And then the one that Scotty's probably upset about, if I heard him correctly, is no single club should be permitted to advance in the draft order by winning the draft lottery more than two times in a five-year period. We're going to call this to New York Ranger role because the Rangers, of course, got Capo Kako at two and Alexei Lfranier at number one.

And again, last year was a bizarre year with the pandemic. and whatever. So I don't have a big problem. I understand the motivation for all that they're doing here to try and tweak things just a little bit. Some people would say that the pendulum needed to swing back a little bit the other way that the league made it, you know, too restrictive for teams. And teams like Detroit, you know, who ended up going from one to four in last year's lottery. So, you know, the rules are the rules. we'll all adapt. The only thing that makes me pause a little bit is none of this would take effect until 2022. So I guess they can't. They don't want to do something in midstream, but I kind of

would have liked to have seen it maybe for this year either. Right. And I actually call that rule of David Poyle rule, Bobby, for all the times. We went to the March GM meetings. And you remember that David Poyle had table this years and years ago, the limitation of teams winning the lottery in a certain amount of time. And he can never get the rule. room to support him. But here we are finally. And ironically Nashville may not want a limitation on who can

win the lottery over the next half decade, but there there you go. And of course the draft itself, nothing official yet, Bob, but we saw Dregs tweet this yesterday and, you know, I traded some emails with a leak source who said it's not official yet,

but all signs pointing to the draft staying put, which I mean, you and I had talked offline, Bob, throughout all this. I I think you and I are of the same line from the get-go. I was dubious. I knew that there were people trying and GMs were trying and other people in the game. I just thought it was too much heavy lifting in my mind that the draft would ever move. Yeah.

I'm not going to say that this was a shell game or anything because I don't believe that would be accurate. But, you know, when I was at the World Juniors in the bubble in Edmonton at the World Juniors, I talked to a dozen general managers. and got all the details. You know, Kenny Hall and Julian Breisbaw in particular were two GMs, one on each side of the border that were really driving hard to defer the draft and had all sorts of ideas. And then everybody had all sorts of different ideas on how it should work and all of that.

So I knew the GMs were absolutely passionate about this and they wanted to get it done. And they created a huge groundswell of momentum within their ranks. to go to the league and say, you got to do something about this. We don't want to draft at the end of July, make it December or January, or make it a full year later, but do not make us draft kids. It's not fair, and we don't want to do it. And while there was some empathy on the part of the league, I think the executive branch, as I like to call it,

Erie Bettman and Bill Daley, I mean, at the end of the day, they're lawyers. And the draft is a highly legal process in the sense that it has to be collectively bargained. It's not a legal entity with antitrust and everything else unless the Players Association agrees to it. And so anything that gets done to the draft has to be done with the blessing of the PA. And the minute you get the PA involved in something like that, it makes it that much

more complicated. And I mean, it's all well and good. And I understand why the general manager self the way they did. but they're saying, okay, we're going to do the draft. We're going to do the 2021 draft in June of 2022. Well, if I'm Owen Power, the potential number one overall pick or his representative, CAA, I'm like, whoa, time out here, guys, wait a second. I might want to play in the National Hockey League next year.

I'm 18 years old. How can you stop me from playing in the National Hockey League? I have a legal right to go and gain employment. with you in the national hockey league. Why are you clocking your door to me? And that would just be one example. And I'm not saying he would have done that. I'm just using him as a potential example.

So the legal ramifications might have been significant on this one. And I just thought right from the get-go that as much as the managers wanted to change it. And the other thing anecdotally was I talked to a lot of the head scouts for different teams. And yeah, some of them wanted to defer. But a lot of the scouts I talked to said, you know what? I'm ready to draft right now if you want to know the truth. We've watched a lot of video and a lot of players. Yeah, some of the Ontario kids haven't gotten as good a look as they would otherwise.

But, you know, it's a level playing field for all 32 teams, I guess it is now because Seattle's in this. Seattle's going to be in this one. And so I thought from the get-go that I was real dubious about the whole defer the draft movement. Bobby, just as a follow-up before we move on from that. But you have such a sense of that entire part of the machinery of hockey with the young players in the scouting and the drafting. What challenges, like, do you think it creates an advantage for some teams that are exceptional at scouting? Like, do you see this as an opportunity for some teams to really, you know, sort of capitalize on an unprecedented situation without being able to see a lot of live hockey?

and maybe the teams that have, you know, better scouts or have a better system or whatever, that they might be able to procure better talent in a draft like this in July than might otherwise be the case? Or what do you think the landscape looks like because it is so unusual? I don't know that it would necessarily enhance anything other than, I mean, teams that have their act together have their act together, teams that don't, don't. And whether you're in person viewing with a normal traditional draft or this pandemic version of the draft, whatever it's going to look like, you know, I think it's a universality to. And if you're good at your job, you're good at your job.

And if you're not, you're not. And I suppose you could argue that this would only amplify who's good and who's bad at their jobs. But the reality too is, I mean, this is one where, you know, budget teams that maybe don't have as many scouts should still be able to do as much or more scouting than anybody else. Because so much of it is being done by video. And the key is to get access to a lot of that video. And I'm sure there are some teams that are better at that than others. And so, yeah, but I do believe most of the scouts. A lot of the scouts I talked to you said they're locked and loaded and ready to draft.

And in fairness, most of the kids from major junior hockey that haven't been playing this year, a lot of the high profile ones anyways have been playing in Europe this season. Bob, let's shift gears. I don't know a lot of people in my life will ask me from time to time. How's Bob McKenzie doing? Because they don't see you as often now on TSN. You're in semi-retirement. We do see you every Wednesday on NBC because that was still part of that.

that deal, right? And so what has your day they've been like if you could tell our listeners for Bob McKenzie? Well, it's been pretty good. Be honest with you. Well, it's been a weird year for everybody for obvious reasons. And I'm not, you know, my level of weirdness is, is mostly positive because I have had more time. But it was busy. I mean, you know, I think I sort of my, my semi-retirement date was August 10th or thereabouts. That was, I think, the day of the draft lottery last August. And I kind of shut it down after that. But then, you know, then I had to do the draft for NBC and related stuff for TSN,

whenever that was, September or whatever. Yeah, late September, early October. Yeah, October. Yeah, six, I think. Yeah. Yeah, right. Early October. So, you know, then, and then, you know, from a personal point of view,

I had everyday hockey heroes volume two. came out and so there was a huge amount of virtual promotion that needed to be done regarding that. So for basically all of November and the first part of December, I was selling books to, like it was my job, which it was. And then, you know, the World Juniors cranked up and, you know, went to the bubble in Edmonton, but the preparation for that started before that. So November and December were actually like really busy, even though I wasn't doing my day-to-day stuff for TSN anymore.

And then as soon as the world juniors were over, I came down to Florida. I've got a home in Florida. And I've been down here since January the 11th. And it also afforded me the opportunity to fulfill my final year of my contract with NBC. As you said, Pierre. So every Tuesday night, I leave the Fort Myers Airport. I go to JFK, come up to Stanford, Connecticut, where I am today, do my thing on Wednesday night with NBC and first thing Thursday morning, I'm right back to Fun and Sun. And so for January,

February and now March, I've been golfing at least a couple of times a week, sometimes three times a week. I've been riding my bike down to the Gulf of Mexico and walking the beach. It's been, you know, I miss friends and family a lot, but it's been a pretty nice mix of work and fun and relaxation. And I'm two weeks away from coming home because I've got to get my quarantine in. And so I can join you, Pierre, on the trade deadline day, whatever that's going to look like. Yeah. Some other stuff for TSN.

So this has been an unusual year too because, as I said, I still had my NBC duties, but I've only got them for this Wednesday today next week and the week after. and then Dregs will finish up the rest of the regular season for NBC virtually, and I'll finish up my TSN stuff. I got some draft rankings I've got to do here in April. Now that we know the draft is almost certainly going to be at the end of July, we're going to get our TSN mid-season draft rankings done. And then after that's done, and I got a handful of Leaf Regional games I'll do

before the end of the regular season in May. And then I would say once the playoffs begin, I'll be up at the cottage and riding my bike. on my pontoon boat and tweeting pictures of wine. Well, sorry, I just got to jump in because the segue is too perfect, but I played a couple of rounds of golf with Bob Latt over the past year, or last summer slash fall, I guess. And your game has come a long way, man.

You're digging in on one of your new passions, for sure. It shows in your game. But I have to mention this because the last time Scotty was at my cottage, a couple of years ago pre-pandemic. I'm not boasting. I'm just pointing that it was a difficult night for him at the shuffleboard table in my cottage. And I have to say that, you know,

obviously since I own the board, I tend to do okay on my own shuffle board. I'd be embarrassing if I didn't. But there was a guest who beat me last year, and that was Bob McKenzie. Wow. He dethrone me on my shuffleboard. It has to be said.

It has to be announced. So that pains me to admit that, Bob. I have to tell you. Well, I had a good partner and yours was a little suspect that I was a younger. That is true. I wasn't going to mention that. So I'm curious, Bob, and Pierre and I were talking about this yesterday, actually, that it was literally a year ago today.

I was at my parents' home in Norwood, Ontario. I'd had to help my dad with some health issues. Or tomorrow again. It was March 11th, that makes God. March 11th. But by day, on. on a Wednesday morning, I believe. Yeah.

Anyway, you want to quibble with the actual day. Maybe it was 364 days, Pierre, but that's, let's call it a year, that you were on the podcast with Pierre and I, Bob. And we were, and we had, like we were talking about, if I recall correctly, that, you know, sort of the, the landscape and we weren't sure what was going to happen. And, of course, it was a day later that the, you know, that the pause began and in this whole year, of course, started to unfold. And I wonder when you think about this year and you think about the game and where it's headed, are you have a sense of optimism? Are there things you're concerned about or you're like, oh, geez, I wonder how this will happen as we move forward, you know,

given that we are now almost exactly a year into this. Well, first off, I'll attack this from two directions. First one is just a recollection. You're right. I mean, a year ago right now, I remember it all so clearly. you know we were in if you remember pierre the general managers meetings were in yeah that was that was like the week before we were in bulk up right yep yeah and and so that i was i was so sick i was i went to the general managers meetings from my home in naples grove over i was sick as a dog i got to my room and i literally couldn't get out of bed and

And I stayed in bed for like 18 hours or 16 hours, got up, realized I can't cover this. And I drove back. I was terrified at the time that, you know, maybe I had COVID. And as it turned out, I didn't. But, you know, a week later, I came home and still wasn't feeling tremendous. And that was basically the day that, you know, the NBA day would have been. The 11th, the night of the 11th, I think, right. Yeah, the 11th.

And so when I got home, I made an appointment with my doctor, you know, and went and got checked out. And he sent me to hook me up with public health. And the day the NHL season got paused, that Thursday, where you guys were on the air all day, I was on my way in when I had to go to my doctor's appointment and public health said probably not a good idea to be around people. And so I went, I went right back home. And the next day, I got a COVID test, which was negative. It took two or three or four days to get the result. But all that was happening a year ago right now. And it's hard to believe the years gone by.

Now, as far as just the year in hockey and the NHL and everything else, I try to be really optimistic. But I don't know how you can gild the lily and suggest that, there's not going to be far-reaching effects for a really long time. Economically, I look at the owners, I look at the players, I just look at the game, and it's going to take so long financially, I think, to bounce back from this, and there's going to be a huge economic tool on the industry. And I think that's probably true. Forget about hockey from it.

Forget about the NHL. You know, when governments are having to write checks for trillions of dollars in relief, you know, those bills are very, eventually going to have to be paid income due to varying degrees. And I think we all stand the possibility of suffering from that. And there's been so many people, both physically, emotionally, mentally, financially that have already, you know, paid huge costs over the past year because of the pandemic.

You know, my son, Mike's, the general manager and head coach of the Kitchener Rangers. They now haven't played hockey for a year. That's crazy. You know, and I think of all those kids. of all the kids on that team and the OHL and you know it's the only one of the three junior leagues in Canada that doesn't have right now a return to play set and I think about all those kids I think of those overage kids that are in their final year I think about kids that are in their draft year that haven't had an opportunity to play it's you know I think about the kids

that are wanting to come into the league the 15 year olds who've played a little bit of hockey here and there but you know and there will be an ovation HL and the graph, but it won't, you know, it's, there's just, you know, the lack of development that's gone on. And, and yet, at the end of the day, you've still got to put it in its proper perspective. And these are all important things to kids and families and hockey fans and what have you. But at the end of the day, if you have your health right now and, you know, your, your family unit is good, then you count your blessings because there's a lot of things. families that are looking back on this past year and aren't so fortunate.

Well, and I worry, one thing that I think we're all guilty of, and that's why once in a while I try to mention it, Bob, is that I worry too that for, not just hockey players, but for any athlete, we kind of, we kind of sugarcoded. We kind of say, well, young athletes, you know, having COVID is like having a cough, you know, it's nothing for them. They have COVID. They come back two weeks later. but I do worry because we don't know the science yet,

you know, if there's any lasting effects for a lot of these athletes that we'll talk about in six, seven, eight years. So that weighs on me at times for sure. And, you know, as far as the business of the game, I think about this all the time, but there's a double whammy of uncertainty, I think. One is so many people have lost their jobs

and so many companies are hurting that just because we're all going to be vaccinated, it doesn't necessarily mean everyone's ready to come back and reclaim their season tickets next year. That's one thing I think about a lot. The other one is just psychologically, people who, even when we all get vaccinated, is it going to take time for people

to be comfortable in crowds? Like, are they automatically going to want to sit in the 11,000 people? And that's another thing. I feel we don't talk about a lot, you know, from the mental health side of things. But we can't wait for the world to be normal again. But are we going to get normal? You know?

Yeah, well, there's, So there's going to be a new normal, and you're right, and you don't know exactly what that's going to look like. But I think, honestly, I think, and you're probably asking the wrong guy, because I'm in Florida, and I see people who are, quote, acting very normal, too normal for my. Yeah. In a lot of instances, but nevertheless, you know, I do everything I can. You know, I'm flying every week, so, you know, I don't love that, but it's part of my job, so I'm doing it. And you do everything to be as safe as you possibly can. And I take a lot of precautions.

But you're right. I don't know what the new normal is going to look like. And everybody's got a different perspective on it because some people will be able to mentally, physically, emotionally, financially bounce back like nothing happened. And then there's going to be other people who don't have the wherewithal to be able to or the experience. Or they've experienced something that won't all. allow them just to create a new normal that's really normal. I was talking to CEO of an NHL team recently, and I think Scotty and I, you and I have talked

about this, but on the flip side, and I tend to be a more positive person, as you know, Bob, but he said, you know, Spanish flu in 1919, if you want to look at history as a guide, what happened after the 1919 Spanish flu that kills many people and made a lot of people sick? It was the roaring 20s. And people were able to finally get out of their homes after the Spanish flu. And I'll just say it since we got a little liberty on our podcast here. People got drunk for 10 years in the 20s, in the 1920s, basically. They were so excited to live life again and hit restaurants and bars.

And, you know, listen. Can we use that as our excuse now? Well, I'm just saying it was a... What's the statute of limitations on this? Well, hopefully it doesn't end up with prohibition, which is what happened at the end of the 1920s. But I mean, I love that anecdote that I got from this CEO because it was like, well, that's fun to think about. You know, are we all going to get over this after we're vaccinated? You know, people that are that feel good about how they got through it.

And let's, you know, let's help the restaurant business. Let's help these people. Let's go to games. Let's go to concerts. I know you're a big music guy, Bob. I mean, so I like that that's the other side. of what I said earlier is the comforting part of it is maybe people can't wait to celebrate life again, you know? Yeah, I think, you know, people, I think there's a whole bunch of people that can't wait, just can't wait for the gloves to come off and the restraints to come off.

And away we go. And then there'll be other people who are going to be scarred. And they're not going to be so quick to do it. So as I said, it's as it's as different as people are. So. I can tell you that the gloves off group includes most of the hockey writers. All right. Pierre, we're going to let Bob go in a second. But I wanted to close out this segment because both of you noted this in both in writing and social media and things like that. And I wanted to note the passing of Walter Gretzky in the past week. And Bob, we mentioned some of your books that you have authored. And a number of them, everyday hockey heroes, both volumes of that, the confessions of the hockey, crazy hockey dad, hockey confidential. A lot of what you've written speaks to the, you know, sort of the fabric of the game.

And the people, the hockey dads and moms and uncles and aunts and brothers and sisters on some levels everywhere. And maybe start with you, Bob. And I think we've often seen Walters referred to as Canada's hockey dad. And sometimes it seems like a bit of a throwaway line. But on some levels, I think it was absolutely true. And I wonder if you feel that his importance to the game, you know, how to quantify it? Or how do you describe how important someone like Walter Gretzky was to the game of hockey? Well, I think he was so important that not unlike his son, Walter transcended the game.

Walter is, Walter Gretsky is bigger than hockey in Canada because of the kind of person that he was and he was so kind and so compassionate and had time for so many people and he impacted so many lives and he did so much work, charity work with, you know,

the McDonald's School for the Blind in Brantford and on and on and on it goes and you can't even quantify how much he did. And then just his individual interactions, he probably talked to more people than, I can't imagine there are very many Canadian men who have spoken, personally spoken to and had an interaction with more people than Walter Gretzky, more Canadians than Walter Gretzky. And everybody had stories. And so he wasn't just an iconic hockey figure. He became an iconic Canadian figure. And it kind of struck me as I was kind of put the whole thing in perspective,

that Walter Gretzky embodied all the traits that as Canadians, we aspire to have, that kindness and generosity and caring and helping your neighbor and just leaving things in a better place than when you found them. And so for that, for me, Walter Gretzky is one of the greatest Canadians because he embodied all the characteristics that we all aspire to be on our best day. And he was like that every single day. Yeah, and I think that humility that he always embodied totally transcended into Wayne, right, Bob. I mean, I've had the, you know, like you,

I've had some social evenings with Wayne over the years after an event. And, you know, he's mobbed everywhere he goes, especially in our country. And he has never, never, I've ever seen Wayne turn down an autograph for a fan say hello. And I'm always like, oh, my goodness. And it's genuine. And I, you know, and I think his parents, both Walter and Phyllis, had a big part in making Wayne that way. Oh, no, no doubt. And what a lot of hockey fans today.

might not realize because so many hockey fans today, you know, weren't around for when Wayne played. You have to understand that whatever Connor McDavid or Sidney Crosby or Alex O'Vetchkin or any of the modern day players are, even Mario to a degree, Wayne became so much bigger than the game. and Bobby Orr was the same way. He revolutionized the game. But I think in terms of the mainstream, you know, of sports in the United States and internationally, Wayne Gretzky, he transcended that to a greater degree than any other player. And on top of that, the point I'm trying to make here is, to your point, Pierre,

Wayne Gretzky was the single most accommodating hockey player with the media, with fans, with everybody. There are so many people who made so much money in the hockey world, in the hockey business because of Wayne Gretzky. And all he ever did was give his time over and over and over again. And the reason he did it was two full, one, because that's how Walter taught him to be. to be giving. And number two, because he thought it was his responsibility as the iconic

player in the game to do everything that he possibly could do to advance the cause of the game. And yet he'd said, you know, I always remember how times have changed because it was the 91 Canada Cup. And I think it was myself and Scotty Morrison and I was tracking and a few other people. and it was after a practice for Team Canada, Maple Leaf Gardens. And like Wayne Gretzky, Mark Messier, and a couple of others were just sitting around in the dressing room with like four or five media people and just shooting the breeze. And like, you know, that never happens now.

And yet that was just part of the routine back then because the players like Wayne Gretzky were everyday men who just kind of approached their job in a way to, to sell the game and with that utter sense of humility. Now, I know we've got to go, but I have to ask, and I can't believe I've never asked you this, Bob. But a rather famous article that you wrote in the Toronto Star on the Eve of Game 7 of the Leafs and Kings.

I was, did you ever hear from Walter about that article over the years? I'm curious. No, I never did hear from Walter on that. I'm sure he was like, same as Wayne and everybody else, room was sour with the way I wrote it or whatever, but it was after game five in Maple Leaf Gardens. I always tell the famous story. I knew Wayne was really pissed off about what I wrote and thought it was disrespectful, I guess. But I didn't think it was, but nevertheless, we've gone over and over that. But I always famously remember on that it was a Saturday morning and I went

to get my haircut. It was a Saturday morning of game seven. And the Leafs and Kings were playing game seven that night. Winter goes to play Montreal in the cup final. And I went to get my hair cut and the guy who cuts my hair was a huge leaf fan. And he's going, oh, I can't believe the game's going to be great tonight. I said, no, it's not. It's not your team poked. And he goes, no, no, no, we're good. And I go, no. I said, why do you say that? I said, because Wade, he's really, really, really mad. And of course, Brett's played the greatest. He's, he's. He's, he's, he's He says the greatest game he's ever played. Yes.

That is glory. So legendary. That's great. Bob, we could do this all day, but you do have, even though you're semi-retired, you actually have work to do. It's such a great treat to catch up with you always. And I'm all, you know what, I'm glad that we're going to bring this to a close. And we won't even have to mention an incident in Calgary at the orientation camp.

See, I feel I've gotten off lucky, only having. been savaged over my shuffleboard game. Let's be clear when we say incident. That does, that does not apply to me or Bob. So that leaves only one person on this podcast that the incident refers to. Anyway, we'll catch up with that one, some other time. But honestly, it's so good to catch up with you. I'm glad you're doing well. Enjoy, enjoy Florida, travel safely, and I'm sure we will impose on you again. But thanks for coming to hang out with us. Awesome. Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. Bob Brunello coming your way.

All right, my friend, that was outstanding. We'll come back after a very brief break. We'll wrap up our chat with Bob McKenzie and take some questions and send you on our way. I was listening to Bobby talk about all the things he's doing. That doesn't sound like semi-retirement to me. It sounds like a lot more work than semi-retirement. But, you know, maybe he'll always be one of those guys because he's so intricately involved in the game on so many levels and has been for so many years.

Maybe that's the way it'll always be. I kind of like that idea as opposed to, you know, the idea that he might be just sitting at his cottage making margaritas every day. You know, but he's always been a trendsetter, right? I mean, he was really in hockey. I don't want to speak for other sports because I think Peter Gannon's in baseball was a trendsetter this way. But Bob was the first guy really in hockey media to, you know,

go from print to television in such a smooth fashion, right? and for a long time do both and then eventually of obviously full time at TSN but as you know Scotty that is that literally directly inspired my career choices the way that he did that and yeah um but what I'm saying is now in semi-retirement he's kind of a trendsetter too because I don't know about you but I never really want to get disconnected from the game 100% but there certainly come the time where I'll probably want to work less so so you know now we don't all get to call or shot like Bob, but, but I'm hoping certainly that that when the day comes in a dozen years or whatever, that I still get to do something while certainly, you know,

not putting in the same amount of time. I think it's pretty a geez. Yeah. I'm kidding. Such and such a, yeah, just one of the, one of the best in the business. And there's a reason they call him the Bob father. You have, I want you to do some research and find out where that came. Oh, we forgot to ask him that. Yeah. Yeah. I'll get them next time. All right, we've got to take a couple of questions from our loyal listeners and readers. We've got a bunch of good ones. This will disappoint my friend Alan Ottawa, who sent in another question about our personal hygiene, which we won't be able to get to today.

This is a good one to start, because I know you and I are both working on some pre-trade deadline stuff. From J. At Count for Hockey. Hello, Scott and Pierre, very polite. I was wondering, what is the likelihood that to Toronto, Maple East, trade? for Taylor Hall. He wouldn't have to fire to go. He'd have to quarantine, but he'd just have to come across the border from Buffalo. And what is the likely acquisition cost? Thanks. What do you think? Yeah, I don't think it's not likely. I mean, listen, I'm never going to say never, but his AEV alone, I think would make it too difficult for the Leafs. I mean, he's $8 million on the cap this year.

If Buffalo does trade Taylor Hall, I think it's almost a foregone conclusion that they would eat half of that to make him a $4 million player, but even a $4 million, you know, I think the Leafs who are on the lookout for a Ford that can play either in their second or third line, I was hearing from a couple of teams around the league, the Leafs were calling around saying, you know, a player with some skill, but also a bit of grit. So, but I think that player probably needs to make less than $4 million in my mind. So, again, I'm not going to say never. but, and don't forget, Taylor Hall has a full no move. And interestingly, despite the year from hell in Buffalo,

has repeated a few times this year that he'd like to actually re-sign with the Sabres. So I guess my point is he also decides his fate here. I mean, he decides he wants to finish the year in Buffalo. That's his call. All right, here's a related one. This is from Dan at D. Stens 8. Please say something good about the future of the Buffalo Sabres. that isn't about how nice their jerseys are.

I like the jerseys. I'm okay with all that retro stuff. Fans need some optimism or hope. This question, and our taping comes a day after they blew two goal leads and end up losing to... Well, it doesn't matter now. I'm just given some context. No, I know. I mean, I'm going to give an answer that goes both ways here.

And it's all about tearing Kim Bulah, the owners. Okay? I think they're part of the problem with what's happened with the savers in the sense that I think there's been too often a change of direction from the top that has affected everything else beneath them. And so you know I've written this when Jason Botterill got fired. I don't know if Jason Bottero would have ended up in a good GF. I can't answer that.

I'm not going to pretend that I'm ready to say he would have been. But how do you know after only three years? like they fired Tim Murray after three years. Tim Murray, who went out and traded for Ryan O'Reilly, traded for Robin Leonard. Obviously, he was a GM when they drafted Ico, which is a brainer. But my point is he got fired after three years. Bauderil gets fired after three years. And obviously Bauderill made some mistakes, you know, Jeff Skinner at the top.

But if you keep, and I talked about this with another executive this week and he said I was bang on, you keep changing your GM every three years. You're shooting yourself in the foot because then you've got to start over again. And so, you know, Kevin Adams is now the GM. He obviously didn't have any front office experience at the NHL level, although I believe he's a pretty smart guy. But is he well surrounded enough to make these decisions? You know, now, so that's all the negative stuff in terms of being directed at the Pagulas. On the other hand, the Pagulas own the Buffalo Bills.

And that franchise is doing remarkable things right now in football. Same owners. So clearly it's in them. to hire the right people and to get out of the way because we've seen it on the football side. Now they need to do it on the hockey side. Yeah. And I think you hit the nail on the head.

And I've known Kevin Adams a long time, covered him the leaves. And, you know, we've, but he's in a very difficult spot, right? He's in the deep end, swimming with the sharks now. And to me, it's about, you know, how he surrounds himself with people who can help him. And this, you don't get out of this mess at, on April 12th or July at the draft.

This is, and I know it's not great for Sabres fans, but this is going to take some time still. And to your point, at some point you just got to stand, you know, for your ownership, you've got to trust that you have people, give them the resources they need to address the areas they need to address and let it take its course. So here's what I would do if I was Kim and Teripagula. I would go out and try to hire Jim Rutherford this summer as president of hockey operations to come in and help grow Kevin Adams as GM, but also give him some guidance through these turbulent times. And it just, you know, Jim had Kevin Adams in Carolina in 06, right? You did. So there's an obvious link there in my mind.

You know from the interview I did with Jim Rutherford recently that that the idea of becoming a president of hockey operations appealed. deals to him in the right spot, I think that would be a terrific spot in my mind. Yeah, I agree. Let's do two quick. One's an easy one here. This is from Melanby's Dead Rat, Dale J.H. 66, Scott Melanby and the Florida Panthers, of course. Has the NHL said how they will seed the teams when they get to the final four? It's probably a good reminder for fans, because, of course, we don't have the traditional

East-West conference setup. which generally is how the four team, the final four get paired up. Yes. I'll leave that to you. Yes, go ahead. By the way, if that question's from Mellon B's dead rat, then we're getting a question from a ghost. Okay.

Yes. Yeah, exactly. All right, all right. Yeah, so what the league has decided is that they will cede at the final four, one against four, two, against three based on regular season standing. So pretty simple. Now, hopefully everyone plays 56 games, which I think now, knock on wood, we seem to be over the hump with all these COVID cases. But you never know what's around the corner.

But as long as everyone plays 56 games, then it's pretty simple. It's points in the standings. And one versus four, two, against three, regardless of geography. Now, if we get some U.S. teams that don't play 56 games, then I guess points percentage would decide before. But the league has told us that it's one versus four, two against three in the semis. Right. So I was just looking if we went by just the top teams in each division. So that would be Tampa versus the Islanders in the one conference final.

And our conference finals. They're league semifinals. League semifinals. Well, yes, sure. Yes, yes. And then it would be Toronto, Vegas then in the other. If you, there you go. That just, it's kind of cool.

Toronto playing out of Buffalo or out of Toronto by then. I guess we'll find out. Oh, I guess we will find out. Okay. Final question for our day today. This comes from Dan's hockey cards at NHL EA Sports Pro. Do you think the Sends will be a playoff team within three years? I think this came up.

There was some discussion to our good friend Mark Motha in Ottawa talking about that. He said the senators will be better than the Leafs in three years. he said? Yeah, I think two to three years he said. Might be right. I know. I'm not ready to say he's definitely going to be right, but you can't dismiss it. I mean, I love these kids on Ottawa.

Yeah, so this is a bit broader. This isn't who will be better Toronto or Ottawa, but this is, do you think the sense will be a playoff team within three years? That's a realistic period of time, I think. So can I answer that question while refraining from wanting to put in the caveat of as long as Eugene Mellink doesn't interfere? Is that now or now? I think you can.

Yeah, I mean, you know, you got Jake Sanderson coming. I mean, I think Otto is, you know, Foreman didn't probably make the jump next year. I do think there will be a playoff to you. And again, I just hope that, you know, the senators have the lowest payroll in the league this year, I hope that Caradorial will have the tools, the financial tools, to continue to build around what he has an amazing base of talent. now we need to make sure they can become a cap team here. Rating Kachuk needs a second contract after this year, Scottie.

What's that going to look like? So that would be my one caveat is the always eternal financial struggles of that franchise. But with that aside, just purely based on what I'm seeing in the pipeline and what we're already seeing in Ottawa, yes, I think they will be a foul. Yeah, I'm with you. I got to tell you. Now I'm bit soft because I've known DJ Smith since he was a captain of the Spitfires when I first started in sports, but I think he is, I think he's going to be a very good coach.

I think he's already learned a lot, even in the short time that he's been the head coach in Ottawa. I like to fit there. And I think the guys like to play for DJ. And yeah, I'm with you. I say yes. I say yes for that answer. All right. Just about time here. What other pod info should we pass on today? How about this? Craig Custance and his full 60 this week, It's the Prospect series. Also goes back to our draft discussion with the athletics, Corey Promond and Scott Wheeler. Those guys know their business. That's Thursday at The Athletic.

And you should check out our comments section for each podcast episode at the Athletic app. And rate and subscribe to the athletic hockey show on Apple. If you aren't already a subscriber, go to theathletic.com slash hockey show and receive a subscription for just $3.99 per month. My friend, you were outstanding today. Very good work by you. Dude, I just take your lead. You're my big brother.

I just do what you tell me, man. You know, that's not even true, right? Do you like how I mention the shuffleboard of the cottage? Sorry, man. I'm sorry. Emily, I wonder, well, before we go, who were the partners? No, I can't. I can't reveal that.

No, no, I can't reveal that. I'll tell you off here. I already know who it is. Yeah, no, there's a couple of buddies, but, you know, since Bob took a dig at my partner, I don't think we can reveal that. That's true. Maybe we'll get your partner on the podcast one day. All right, that's enough.

All right, have a good day, pal. Take it. Love you.