The Athletic Hockey Show - Brayden Point leads the way for Tampa Bay Lightning. Does Matthew Tkachuk want to move on from Calgary Flames? Buffalo Sabres - Eichel, Reinhart ready for change.

Episode Date: June 22, 2021

Craig and Sean discuss the powerhouse Tampa Bay Lightning, and who, on a team full of superstars, is their most valuable.The guys talk about the performance Robin Lehner gave for the Vegas Golden Knights in game four in Montreal, and the motivation that Lehner provided for himself, by reading negative comments about him on twitter.Custance and Gentille welcome John Vogl, who covers the Sabres for the Athletic for a discussion on the work still to do in Buffalo as they look to hire a new head coach, possible more help in the front office, and oh ya, the need for goalies and the trading of their top two centers in Jack Eichel and Sam Reinhart.Finally, Craig and Sean dissect the Matthew Tkachuk wants out of Calgary rumours and the guys pay tribute former NHL'er Tom Kurvers who lost his life after a long battle with long cancer at the age of 58 yesterday. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey, this is Craig Custins with The Athletic, joined by Sean Gentilly on the Tuesday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show, The Americans Edition. Sean, let me just tease what we got a little bit, then we can talk, Sean, which I'm looking forward to very much. We have John Vogel joining the show later. He covers the Buffalo Sabres for us, and he's been on the heavy newsbeat around that team for months now, and it's just really, list. There's a coach to be hired still. There's probably a front office bill out and oh yeah, they have to trade their best player. They don't have to, but they should at this point. And we'll get into the Jack Eichael discussion there. We have, we're going to lean into the offseason a little bit. There was something that Matthew Kachuck was trending on Twitter last night and we, you know, we can't

resist that discussion at all. We're going to get into that. But Sean, first, let's talk about the lightning, just pouring it on the Islanders last night. I mean, I don't know if this just reestablishes their dominance, or is this just how this playoffs go and that game's going to be completely forgotten by the time they get back on the ice? Well, first, be honest. When did you actually turn the game off? For nothing.

And then circled back just to make sure nothing crazy happened. It was major pull the plug and then check, monitor on my phone and make sure that Nothing crazy, like nothing crazy was going on. So, I, that shows you what it dud that game was. We're talking about a conference, a conference final or a semis or whatever we want to call it, that I was just completely checked out of halfway through. And I think that speaks to probably how good Andre Vasselowski is because they get, a team gets down by three or four goals and you're like, all right, you can, you can put

this one on ice. It's, it's done. But, um, what? the logical move is that we're going to see another two one islanders win. For sure. I thought that after. I'm like, one-nobling islanders. But that's also conventional wisdom at this point.

I know part of it's like, we've seen it happen enough where we should be prepared for it, but we also haven't seen many eight-nothing games. Like, is this, is this finally at the end of the road for the islanders? Will I finally be proven correct in my desire to pick against them in every series they've played for the last four years or whatever? Here's the thing that I've noticed about the lightning over the last couple years is that they've gotten to the point these great teams get where they're pretty inflappable.

Like they can lose games, they can get down in the series, it doesn't matter, there's no choking. They've already choked or whatever with that Columbus series. So the worst that could ever happen to them already. And in some sense, that's freeing, right? At that point, you can just lean into whatever you are. And I think the lightning, I think that is a position of strict. That's a great place to be. And I, you know, we've seen it. You know, I've seen some recent years, teams go through that,

all those great teams get to that point where you can just tell. Like, they, they lose a game. And they're like, yeah, that's playoff hockey. You're going to lose games. And you're going to get down in a series. And you just keep on trucking. And the lightning are definitely at that point. And at some point, you know, these other teams, Colorado will get there. You know, these other good young teams are just not in that part of the cycle. but man, these lightnings are. Lightning team definitely is. Yeah, it's easy to have faith in your ability to bounce back

whatever Stephen Stamco's your fourth best forward or wherever. Wherever he is at this point. And that's no knock on Samco's. He scored twice last night. I mean, it just speaks to the depth that's on that team. And when you're working with such an insanely talented group that, oh, by the way, just won a Stanley Cup and hasn't lost a series since that, catastrophe against the blue jackets and blah, blah, you should be cocky. You should have a ton of faith

in your ability to bounce back from adversity or whatever you want to call it. Of course, this is how they play. They have no reason not to. I want to go big picture with the lightning because you mentioned Stamco's coming in, scores a couple goals. And really, like, it almost seems like whatever he does is bonus at this point. And I hate that. Like, he's, you know, he's a Hall of Fame player. And it's just, it's like, oh, yeah, Stamco's contributing to the, you know, that's, that's nice. Good for him. And so I looked it up because they had mentioned in the broadcast that after the first one was his 30th career playoff goal. And I'm like, okay, where does that slot him all time?

And, you know, I'm just, I'm always curious about this stuff. And at that point, that had pulled him even with teammate Tyler Johnson for career playoff goals, which I would, I would have lost that. And I know Tyler Johnson has had some really good playoff runs. And it's been, you know, but whatever. And then he scores again. And now it's like, okay, you know, if he keeps going, he might catch, you know, Coulorne. And it's like, that's, that's wild to me.

So that posed a question. When you think about the lightning, who in this, and their run is now going, they're going on several years, going back to the trip to the Stanley Cup finals against the Blackhawks. Like, who is the most indispensable of them? Six years ago, by the way. Yeah, that's, I know. I know.

So we're on a six or seven years stretch here. in your mind it's not Stamco's which is wild to say because he's such a great player Olympian et cetera is he Olympian great player Hall of Famer who do you think is the most indispensable out of this Braden point yeah Braden point it's easy not Vaselowski not headman again like I always just sort of put goleys off in their own in their own separate little in their own separate little table because they're the most it's the most important position on the ice.

So, we can, yeah, that's always the default. Yeah, right, because every cup team, the goal is the most important

player on. Almost, almost, almost definitionally. So, yes, this is, a lot of this is because of

Vaselowski, absolutely, but it's Braden point. He's, he's, he's, he's hitting historic levels. Like,

he's, by the end of all this, he's going to be third all time in goals, uh, among players 25 or younger, which is, which is crazy. I mean, he scores, he scores every night.

It's Braden Point. It's Braden Point. So, moving up the charts as we climb. So Alex Collarne has now has 34 career playoff goals. I knew, I knew that you were going to stomp hard for Coulorne. I get it. No, no, no, no. This is, I'm just, I'm just pointing out facts.

Braden Point's probably the right answer because once he became Braden Point, they, like, that's when they became the powerhouse, right? You know, the headman and Vasilisky were around. And, you know, early on, Ben Bishop was getting starts. And so you can say, the one thing I would say about Vasilowski, you know, and they kept trotting that record out yesterday is that his record after losses. Like, it's ridiculous. And I wish I had the stat right now. But you want him in goal after coming off a loss.

He just seems to clamp down. But I'm with you. Like he's, he is, you know, maybe if we remove him from the equation. So yeah, so we're moving up. Alex Coulorne, 34. Then we go up. Braden Point is at, this is 128 all time in the NHL. And Braden Point's not a particularly old fella.

And he's, he's, you know, he's actually. He's 25 years old. He's 25 years old. He is now at 36 career playoff goals, or 35, excuse me, in 60 games. So you were wrong. He doesn't score every game. but every other better than that

he scores he scores uh right he scores he scores every uh every 1.7 games he scores or whatever it is yeah yeah so he's got you know no he's he's it's historic you know elite tier stuff from him like I said he's whatever

he's third or fourth all time in goals and guys under 25 that's I know it's a it's a weird cherry picking stat because he is 25 years old. Yeah, I feel like it's like, but you could, you know, under. But in terms of, I mean, the upshot there is that he is starting his career at an ultra, his playoff career at an ultra, ultra elite level. And whether he keeps it up, you know, remains to be seen. But he's, he's played a lot of playoff games for a young guy and he scored a ton of goals at, you know, at truly at a, at a rush more kind of, at a rush more kind of pace. It's a, it's amazing. You know, and now he has, at 35 career playoff goals, he's pulled even with, you know,

Pavel Bure, Bure, Alex Del Vecchio, some Pierre Turgeon, some crazy, you know, some all-timers, Brad Park. Like, it's like, but actually he is now one behind Nicholas Baxterom. I mean, think about how many playoff games Nicholas Baxter has played. And he's a thousand years old now. He's played 133 games. And the point is. Old man, old man, Nick Baxter, is.

That's a tough one. That's a tough one for me to stomach. I've come to grips with being old. I think you're still not there. I'm close. I'm close enough. Almost. What was your breaking point for you? I think whenever Crosby started to get gray hair and kind of be treated as like an elder statesman over the last couple years, that's when I was like, okay, I'm officially, I'm officially past it because he's a little bit younger than me. I was I was in college and he got drafted. and blah, blah, blah. Like, that's, like, that group of players when they, when they really start aging out, the, the 05 draft is, is what I'm going to be like, all right, you can just put me,

put me in the ground now. So, yeah, he's done all this in 60 games. The one guy he trails is Andre Palat has 36. I wouldn't have guessed that. Nope. That's, that's interesting that he's, that he's tops there. And I know he, I know he. had.

Oh, I lied. I lied. I could go to the right page. There's still somebody above him. This is wild. So we've just rattled off guys. We're like five guys above Stamcoast at this point. Kuturov, I forgot about.

Oh, by the way, when we're talking about most important players in their runs, we didn't even mention, you know, the heart trophy. Nikita Kutcheroff. 41 goals to lead the lightning career. Hey, how many other, how many other players in NHL history have a playoff goal streak of, of eight games or more. Besides Braithmore. How many?

Probably not many. Give me number. I feel like you know this answer. I know the answer. I know the answer. Two? One. It's Reggie Leach for the Flyers in 76.

Yeah. Like, it's really unbelievable what he's doing. And I think your answer is the right answer. So, and I don't want to spend the whole first segment on Breed, point, but we can. It created a debate, Thomas Drans, colleague at the Athletic out of Vancouver. I love your answer. He loves to mix it up on Twitter.

And he's like, maybe this will finally put an end to small, you know, you need to be a big and heavy in the playoffs. And, you know, he said maybe Braden point successful end it. Of course it won't because history, there's a long history of smallish players having success in the playoffs. Like he's not the first, you know, we're. the Blackhawks dominance was carried by Patrick Kane for long stretches and he's not a large player. Those narratives, those narratives on each side last for one game.

Like if the lightning close out this series and Blake Coleman has a goal or whatever, like one of the one of the more physical, one of the more physical gritty, gritty dudes that they went out and traded for last year, then it, you know, then it resets and we start doing it again. If it's, if it's, if it ends up being, if it's Vegas, Tampa in a final and that's like, which I at this point, that's what we needed to be, right? Yeah, I mean, it's selfishly, it's what I, it's what I want for sure. I mean, like, I, I think stylistically, that's, that makes sense. I think from a narrative standpoint, which is something we all pay attention to, whether we want to admit it or not.

I think it's, I think it makes sense. Yeah, but if that happens, everybody is going to dig in. Everybody on either side of the skill versus will debate is, is going to dig in and it's going to be, it's going to be fun. But yeah, I mean, and I, and I agree. I agree with trans. Like, I'll take, I'll take faster skilled guys over guys who are just being big for big sake. But the debate's never going to end.

It's actually going to restart tomorrow night. Oh, I can't wait. Like, it's, to me, this is the same as the analytics debate in that it's, the answer is, it's like, it's both. You know what I mean? Like, you don't want skilled small players who aren't going to battle and go into the tough area. You know what I mean?

Braden point's great because he's a feisty competitor that does whatever it takes to win and goes wherever he has to. Like, he's a complete, he's a complete hockey player. It's a debate that I've always, that always kind of exists on a low level here in Pittsburgh because of how small and skilled and setting their ways that team is from, or has been from a rock from a roster construction standpoint because you got Jake and so and he got Brian Ross and you got Sydney Crocky and blah blah. And that's how they won two cups.

You know, what I always say is like just pick one thing and be good at it. Like don't don't try to find like a round peg like Ryan Reeves. and try to throw them in a lineup just because you want to say that you have a big guy. Like, that can, that can throw off, that can throw off a lot of different stuff. Being big for the sake of being big doesn't make any sense. Like, you're not trying to, you're not trying to tick boxes there and say like, well, okay, we like this team. We like them, we like them a lot more if they're a one, six, three guy on the, on the, on the,

on the third line. I think if you have an identity when it comes, when it comes to team building, you know, that's what's important, not just saying we need, we need, we need. something because we feel like we need it. I think there's still, like this list is a good example. There are still guys that have success in the playoffs. You know, it's a different game. And we've watched how these games are called and we've talked to ad nauseum about them.

It's a different game. And there's, you know, there's a reason Palat is good in the playoffs and Coulorne. And they're, you know, not lighting the world on fire during the regular season. And, you know, you could argue to counter what you said, though, Sean, like Pat Maroon almost feels like the let's plug in a big guy in and you know who maybe isn't part of our identity and that's worked out really well for Tampa right well but what worked out more was was Braden was Braden point turning into the best playoff goal score of his generation and having a having a Vesna winner or Pat Maroon what could be what could be Pat Maroon agree to disagree

um all right before we get to John Vogel who's on I don't want to make John wait your your best friend Pat Maroon my best friend Pat Maroon my best friend Pat Maroon I wanted to talk quickly because I thought of you when Robin Lennar copped to basically doom scrolling, you know, he gets the nod. Pete Dabor, who I've always liked Pete Dabor because he is not afraid to make the tough call. He's got guts as a coach. And he goes with Robin Lennar, which I, of course, thought was the right call. I didn't say anything on Twitter or express that to anybody beforehand.

No, you texted me. I have the evidence. I said, great. What a smart decision. No, well, I won't be sharing it with anybody out of respect, out of respect for you. Thank you. That's a private conversation. But I'll share it. I said that Robin Lennar will probably win this in overtime for Vegas. Great, gutsy moved by Pete Dabor. I just like the idea that, like, Robin Lennner's so online and so present. And he was responding, like, he had a, he was, who did he respond to? Oh, Keith Oberman tweeted like, terrible decision. And here's Robin Lender after the game with a panda swimming in a pond, like, gift. And I'm like, oh, could you love Robin Lender anymore?

He was one step away from just picking random Twitter folks with like, like, and then there was some guy wearing sunglasses in his avatar and he sent it to Bordaturnan. Like he was, the axe grinding on display there was just wild. It was, it was very, it was very relatable, eh? and as someone who's terminally online. And also, like, maybe a little, I don't know if that's exactly what you want from your goaltender after a winner or loss, but I don't know, man, it was, it was, it was, it was funny, it was funny to hear.

I loved it. I mean, it only works because he won, like, had he lost and we would be like, you should not have your phone out or whatever. What's right. Throw your phone in a river. Robin Lennar, like your, this is melting your brain. Yeah, pro. That's right.

Like, that's the beauty of hockey is that we just like, whatever happens, then we just latch on to whatever, you know, we're like, that's great. You can get motivation from Twitter. What I want to know, you had kind of a benign tweet about Robin Lennar starting. If I remember correctly, it was as exactly, I forgot what it was. It wasn't critical, but it was like, hey, this is happening. And I was curious if Robin Lennar took any offense to yours.

Do you think your tweets served in any other ways? Specifically, yeah, I think I am among Robin Lennar's greatest haters, clearly. And he did this and he did this for me. No, I was more, I was more talking about the flurry end of things, honestly. That's more what I was, that's more what I was referencing just because, you know, we've seen this, we've seen this from, it all, you know, I, is somewhere. who is here for all of it and, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the flurry meltdowns of 2012 and 2013 and 2014. I mean, that guy's career just fascinates me to no end. So to see, so to see

it kind of get this other, this other, this new chapter. And who knows, who knows what happens, you know, with, with the Lennar, with the Lennar, with the Lennar math debate. I'm just, I'm just continually fascinated by the twists that guy's career have taken. So, I mean, you've covered Mark Andre Fleury a long time. First of all, I just want to say the whole point of them having two good goalies, like this was part of their strength going into the playoffs. It's like they have two good goalies. They're getting used them. You're not going to, you can rest a guy. Like, it's not a strength if you don't use it. So like this is, this is all part of the plan for Vegas. In retrospect, you know, Flurry has the gaff. It made perfect sense. And maybe you don't like it because it,

I don't know, highlights or maybe you feel like you're blaming Mark Andre Fleury or something. But like, that's the whole, that's why you have. these two goalies. So you can't play them both. That can't be the concern or the overall goal at this point. Like, you're trying to win games. You're not trying to, you know, keep Mark Andre Fleury content and happy and whatever. But what I will say about him is, you know, it's kind of classic Flurry stuff where in their losses, he's been terrible. You know, he had the gaff before he's lost six games as a starter. or one of them he was great in.

The others have been, you know, 769 save percentage, 875, say, percentage, 8, 8. Like, he's, you know that, you know that maybe there's going to be a couple times per series where he has a dud. And I think it makes sense for DeBoer, if nothing else, I tried to head that off at the past. Because, again, you know, they're playing a lot of games. These guys, these guys aren't used to playing every other day for, for one consecutive months. So I'm with you, absolutely. If you don't use Robin Lennar in a game like that one, what's the point to even having it?

Yeah, you don't even. And you're not using a strength. It'd be like having a really good second line center and be like, yeah, we're just going to sit. We're going to scratch him. Don't bother. Yeah, don't bother. We don't need him. All right.

Well, we got, we've got a lot to talk to John Vogel about. I feel like we could talk Sabres every single episode in this. We have almost. We've come close. We've come close. All right. We're now bringing John Vogel. So I meant before we went to break, I meant to ask Sean.

And now I can ask John too because John covered Robin Leonard in Buffalo. We're going to probably know by the time this drops, this episode drops. So we're not like breaking news or even debating it really. But I want everyone on the record since I was the only one who came out in defensive Robin Leonard before the last game privately. Who starts the next game and why? Privately. Privately, of course.

We'll start with John. John, who are you going with in the next game? I think Robin earned one more. I mean, yeah, you talked about, you talked a little about the gaff from the previous game, and Robin just came out and played a solid, impressive game. I think he gets one more shot, and then win or lose, I think maybe Mark Andre comes in and then the next one. That's just my personal thought.

Sean. Can you do that? Can you play Leonard? And if he wins, you still go back to Flurry? Like, I feel like playing Leonard for a second game is the sort of tacit acknowledgement that, like, he's the default going forward. which I don't necessarily have a problem with, but... When I go back to the 06, the Sabres were playing in the

Eastern Conference Finals, and it's Carolina. They were going back and forth between Ward, and I think it was Gerber, was that the one? But they had two goalies going back and forth, and whether they won or lost, they went back to Ward. So I think that that's kind of how this will wake out where it is. It's Flurry's team at the moment, so give Leonard one more because he earned it and then go back to Flurry.

I'm sold. I'm sold. Yeah, it's simple. I love it. We're all on board with the. that plan. Mark Andre Fleury was my pre-playoff Kansmite pick. So I think that's literally, that's actually on the record. That's the main reason I want him to draw in because I also, I'm also on record as saying he's, he's going to win it. He's going to win a consmite. So I, he does need to play in order to win the consmite. Personal, personal bias wins out on, on this

as always. As always. All right. So, John, I like, I think we were talking about you on the pod last, which, like, I feel so bad for how much work you've had to do nonstop. This is, you know, it's June 22nd as we record this. A lot of beat writers are disappearing just for a breather. And you've been not only just covering a team, but like a news watch. It's fun because we all like the news and we like to chase it. But it's exhausting. I've been there as a writer.

Like, what has this year been like for you? Yeah, there's been some times where it was, oh, man, it's just never going to stop. This is my 19th season. I've only covered four playoff teams. So we know I've seen a lot of bad things happen in Buffalo in the last two decades. But this year topped at all. I mean, everything just from playing bad hockey after finally having some expectations, bringing in Taylor Hall, bringing in Eric Stahl, you think, all right, they might be decent.

They probably won't make the playoffs, but they can contend. And then they're worse than the tank teams. They were just absolutely terrible. Then the NHL throws them into the COVID soup. They knew that was the app about that. Yeah, they knew New Jersey had a few plays. Bears, go play anyway. The Sabres got it shut down for two weeks. Then they come back. Ralph Kruger couldn't coach at all, but it still took forever to fire him. The fans were in revolt.

Jack gets hurt. Now season's over. Jack's ready to get out. Sam Reinhardt's probably going to. Razner's Ristelainen. They don't have any goalie signed for next year. Oh, yeah, they don't have a coach at the moment. So yeah, there's a few things going on. I don't even know where to start with all that. I would say this podcast is firmly in the Don Granado. Like we've just, we've thrown all objectivity aside. We're, I think,

team Don Granato at this point. He was, we had him on. He was great. I've always, like he always seems like he's, um, in terms of working with young players and that's what Buffalo needs,

keeping an upbeat attitude. Um, it seems like a nice fit. Where, can you give any update on where I think stand? I know these are tough right now. And then where are you at that on that? Yeah, I think it's still 50-50 that it's his job.

The only reason it's not higher is the Pagulis was showing a tendency to fall for things at times. So someone might come in and just, hey, they have a great interview. They might have someone might come in, have a great interview, and that's it. They're now the front run. So I'm not going higher than 50-50 on Don at the moment, but he was fantastic, both for us and for the team. For us, I just want to relate a story that the Savers PR guy told me. It was after one of his news conferences that wrapped up. And he's like, oh, should I call?

So and so, I don't really like the answer I gave him. I think I can do a little better. So you don't hear too often from a coach. My goodness. Yeah. I hope the answer was yes. Call that person. Absolutely not.

Do not. Do not open this door, my friend. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, but the team was just completely different. I mean, a little bit tired to tell because I think anybody had stepped in for Ralph, they would have made it been an improvement. but Don was definitely just a whole new team. And he got more out of Casey Middlestat and Tage Thompson and the guys that you needed more out of.

And I think that's his big thing going forward. That's why I think he's the frontrunner, but like I said, still just 50-50 at the moment because Kevin Adams is going to talk to everyone and wants to talk to everyone just as he's new at this. He wants to learn some other ideas. And yeah, he's talked with college guys, HL guys, European guys and NHL guys. So he's not done yet, I don't think. Do they end up where they are with Ikel no matter what? Like, I know everyone, the surgery thing, that's a big deal,

certainly seems like the straw that broke the camels back and whatever. But even if that doesn't happen, are we spending the offseason talking about a Jack Eichael trade being certain no matter what? Like, was that just an inevitability based on the way the last year or two went? I think, I actually think no in this case. The injury really, really topped. Now, obviously, after last season, or the previous season, Jack was fed up. He had a MVP caliber season. The team wasn't getting any better.

So, yeah, he was sick and tired of losing. But this year, he came out, and there were some injuries. But as he said, he scored two goals. So he was more embarrassed than mad this year. So I think if he had just been able to get the surgery, get healthy, he would have been willing to come in and prove himself and stick around. but the surgery was a big thing. I mean, it's his body, and he's just convinced.

I've talked with a few people in his camp, and every neurosurgeon that he's talked to, they are convinced. He gets this, he's ready to go in two months. There's going to be, he's ready just for the rest of his life. He wouldn't have to worry about it. And the fact that he can't get it done is just, yeah, it's over, basically. That's unbelievable. So, John, you wrote a great piece.

for the athletic that really broke down the assets potential suitors have. I think this was last week in a potential Jack Eichael trade. When you went through that process, was there a team that you said, and I've kind of done this a bit too, and I've got my answer, but was there a team where you're like, this really makes sense? You know, in terms of what the savers need in lining things up and what they have, when you went through that process, did anything jump out? Yeah, there were six teams listed. We had L.A., Minnesota, Anaheim, Columbus, Philly, and the Rangers.

And the three that I think are at the top would be L.A., Minnesota, and Annam. There's just a lot of things from all those teams that can really fit with Buffalo has. If you trade Jack Eichol, you're going to need a center. Obviously, it doesn't have to be an elite center, but you need a center. Step into the lineup. You're going to need some prospects, and you would like someone that the fans can embrace. That's going to be a big thing. Once Jack's gone, he's the face of the franchise for the last few years.

there's no one really to step in. Dylan Cousins might be that guy in a little while, but you want someone that the fans can really grasp on to and say, hey, this guy is going to be it. And there are some prospects in L.A., Minnesota, Anaheim that might have those. And then you throw in the number eight pick from L.A. and the number three pick in Anaheim. And I think there's some deals there that could be made.

Yeah. To me, it's the Kings. I feel like it just, so the one thing, you know, people always want to do when they're, you know, especially the fans, they put together these packages or whatever. And they never include like five. of the best prospects or whatever. Like there's like the, you know, the sabers have to give up Jack Eiko,

but the Rangers don't have to give up anybody they've taken in the first three rounds. But to your point, when the kings, when you look at what the kings have, you factor, you know, they have the high end prospects that they've been gathering, Quentin Byfields, Alex Turcott, that would certainly qualify under player fan can rally around and play center. So that, you know, you have two players there where really like you could get excited. about if you're a Sabers fan as a building block. You have the high pick.

I think what jumps out the most is they have a need to get, they don't want to wait in L.A. They have a need to get good pretty quickly here where you don't want to necessarily wait five years for Turcott to be a number one center. Because you've got Drew Dowdy and you've got Ange Kopatar sitting there getting older. And they're also in a division, they're back to being in a division next year that is not that good.

It's going to be there. It's going to be there for them to make some hay and potentially finish second or third. So they can, they can, they can, they can jump up. Like how, and you don't have to give up both of those guys. So you can, you can theoretically put together a really good deal for the Sabres for Jack Eichel. And still, you know, and you're coming out with Eichel, Kopitar and maybe still Turcott down the middle in, if you'd send Byfield the other way. doubting on deep like you're you're all of a sudden you're loaded and and it just makes so much sense where they can make a deal that works for everybody because I think you know everyone says

when you're trading jack Icoe you can't win the deal I think the Sabres can actually win a deal and it still works for the Kings so that's my conclusion there yeah there's always a secondary thing with LA they're in a market where stars matter um we got in the we got the Olympics coming up they can market jack Eichael is mr. U.S. say hockey going to the Olympics. I mean, it's a city where, yeah, stars matter. You got LeBron. You got Mike Trout.

You've got, yeah, teams need the big stars in that city. And that's Jack going there. They could market that very well. The other thing I look at is GMs that maybe are under pressure or some heat. Like, I think Rob Blake is, you know, he's been added a bit there in L.A. Like, it's time to turn the corner there. So there's some heat. Bob Murray is a good one.

Like Bob Murray, at least from the fan perspective, I think fans have just, you know, They've reached a point where they have had it. Like, you look, we do those fan surveys at the athletic. And Eric Stevens has done a great job kind of getting the pulse of Ducks fans. And I think there's a high level of frustration there. And Bob Murray has shown a tendency to make a big deal. Like he is a, you know, a guy that likes to make trades. The wild card to me is Yarmel kick a line.

And we've talked about a bit about him. He's always in the mix for something like like he is, I just don't see a, like, they need centers. And so how does that work? Yeah. I don't know. The fit on a return doesn't make sense for the, doesn't, I shouldn't say that. It doesn't make as much sense for the blue jackets as it does for like the Kings and the Ducks where you have a byfield or a Turcotte or a Trevor Zegras or whatever.

Like those guys who you can send back as actual center, center pieces, that guy doesn't exist in Columbus because if he did, then they wouldn't be in the discussion at all. So, yeah, man, it's, it's one of those things. I could sit here and think about it for, you know, a half hour every day, like Jack Eichael trade destinations. Yeah, the thing with, the problem with Columbus when you look at it, they have the number five pick, which is nice. But the problem is most of their assets that they would send here are guys who are NHL guys. You can maybe get line eight, get one of the goalies. And the savers don't need that at the moment.

They're not ready to wear next year. There's no, you, they would need to start building a little more. And those guys don't help that cost. It's interesting that many is in the mix, is, was in your top three. And because that's a team that is a bit like Columbus perennially in the search of a center. And but you, you saw a lot of fit there? Yeah. I mean, I think, I know there's a lot of people in town that really like Marco Rossi.

Yeah. Obviously, the health thing. So that's a little bit. Matthew Boldy, just coming out of college is already excelling in the H.L. That's a possibility. And Kevin Fial is young. He's only 24. I know talking with Bruce,

so there's obviously going to be a lot of money crunch there. So he'd be here for a few years at least. He fits in that thing where he's an NHL guy and maybe they want a little younger. But he's the only 24. You're getting him for at least a few years and then you can move him if you need to. I wanted to touch on Sam Reinhart because he's just as interesting a player

in terms of potential return or a trade. And I have noticed a bit of a shift amongst fans. they're saying, Jack Eichael's probably not realistic. Sam Reinhart's the guy to target out of Buffalo. Where do you see that? How do you see that playing out with Sam Reinhart? Yeah, he's one year away from UFA.

He's not going to sign a long-term deal. So yeah, now is the time to move him. I mean, you're overhauling the franchise. You can't keep him around just on a one-year deal and then try and move him at the deadline or anything. So, yeah, it's time to move him. He really, he's always been a solid goal score. He's always proven himself.

to be a complimentary player. He was Jack's wingman. He was Ryan O'Reilly's wing man. But when Don Granada took over, he moved him to center, basically because he had no choice. And he excelled. He had 10 goals down the stretch. He just was performing both ends. He was drafted as a center. So people are saying, well, I'd we wait six years to try this. But that's the Buffalo A, apparently. But yeah, he's really proven he can be a two, play two positions. He's a solid two-way guy. every year 24 goals. I mean, that's just pencil it down. This year was a little more.

So, yeah, I mean, there should be interest in him. And if it weren't, if Jack weren't on the market, Sam would be one guy that, hey, everyone should be looking at. Yeah, there'd be a lot more juicer on him. Like, he's still young. It can play, like you said, multiple positions, that pedigree that GMs love, number two overall pick in 2014.

Yeah. I can't believe we're talking about Sam Reinhart, like potentially hitting UFA. Like, he's been, he's about to have been in the late for seven years. Like, that's, that's crazy to me. We were talking about stuff that makes you feel old. I think that's, I think that's towards the top. Like, my God.

Oh, this is the portion where Sean comes to grips with his age again. Yeah. I'm just going to like, I'm just going to stare out the window and, and think for the next 30 seconds about Sam Reinhart being in year seven. Oh, my goodness. That 2014 draft. Like, that doesn't, like, you know, for those of us who are old, it doesn't seem that long ago. with all the dry sidel and Ekblad and all those players. So, John, the people, of course, I feel the worst for the fans in Buffalo,

because you're right. Like the best return here is, the best smart thing to do here is to load up on young players to try to get that top of the draft pick. But now you're just sending it back a few years. Is there any case to be made of trying to go to maybe the Columbus route and getting players who are NHL ready so you can, potentially not have the fans wait another five years for a playoff berth? I don't think, no, I think fans are, it's, there's a little problem with the fact that

prospects, they've seen so many in the last decade, not panic. How do you sell this? It's so people, everyone talked about, oh, they got the number one pick. People should be excited. People aren't really all that excited at the moment just because they've seen a lot of prospects come and go. And the Sabres a few years back, they had a, it was called the Blueprint. They printed out this fancy thing, sent it to season ticket holders.

These guys are coming. This is so-and-so rank them. And number 15, they're going to be great. And two or three of them made it maybe. And then, yeah, so prospect, it's weird. They're in a tough spot where no one's excited about prospects. They're not excited about the guys who are on the team. But I think the fans are smart enough to know that they can't just fix this overnight.

Valene's 21. Cousins is 20. They know it's going to take a few years. They've seen with Jack and Sam that it takes a few years to get a team around them. So unfortunately, fans as beaten down as they are, they know it's still going to be a few more years and that shouldn't be rushed. Like, imagine if they come out of this with, you make your deals and you come out of this and you have Owen Power and Dahlene on the back end.

You have cousins in Byfield and whoever you get at the top of the drive. with another fur like they could be so loaded and I know and it's in it and fans don't want to hear that but I do think like there's and and maybe all these guys don't pan out and but you know middle stack could still be really good like there's still that's not out of the equation here I don't know I think there's a scenario here where the sabers end up in really good shape and they're like the next Colorado avalanche or something yeah what they have to do is like I think it's kind of a They got to get everybody in that 21 to 24 range right now. So that in three years, they're ready to go.

There's no reason to get a guy who's 27 now and he's 30 when these guys are finally in their prime. They just, yeah, they put that, there's some L.A. deals that could really, yeah, really tantalize people. You keep looking at that list and you're like, that has to be. That's the one that makes sense. Even if it's Turcotte, like I think, I think byfields, you know, I don't want to say the pipe dream because that makes it sound like it's impossible. but that's as a byfield package is as good as it gets. Like that's, you know, that's, that's the goal, the goal for, for every fan, I'm sure. But, I mean, even if you have Turcotte Plus, I don't know.

That's, that's, that's close. It makes more sense than, than anything else. I'll say that. Yeah. So, John, we touched on Owen Power just a bit in, I mean, that seems to be the guy at the top of this draft. Have you been able to kind of familiar? your eyes yourself with his game? How do you see that fit in terms of what Buffalo needs? I saw a little bit of the world championships when he was over there. Look,

there's good moments for sure. That's the other thing. They savers, there's, they've got a lot of defensive prospects. So that's kind of why, that's another reason why people aren't overly excited about the one draft. Like, he's the best guy. You got to take the best guy. It's the best asset out there. But you've got Dahlene. They drafted Mettea Samuelson at the top of the second around in the Dahlene draft. They drafted Ryan Johnson of University of Minnesota in the first round. They've got Jacob Bryson, who was a rookie this year and was one of their better players. So they've got young defensemen. So that's another reason why. But hey, add this guy and you could have really one of the best NHL's best defense scores in a few years. Okay, hear me out on this last

thought. Why not listen on Rasmus Dahlane for all the reasons you just said? that might take me a second just because he's not available but you blow me away blow me away somebody there were flashes I think I think you could get you could sell part of the fan base on that for sure because he was so hyped

and he hasn't quite lived up to it yet but he's playing in a position that most guys haven't even played before I mean or I mean at that age but other people see the flashes there are things he does that people haven't seen in this Downs and Phil Housley. So you hope that he's only, you hope the next few years, that just keeps growing.

And he really blossomed under Don Granato. So if you keep Don, you really want to keep Rasmus. And so, yeah, I wouldn't quite listen. But as you said, if you get blown away, what are you going to do? Well, John, I hope you're able to take a weekend or something at some point. Man, I, like, I feel for what you're going through. I mean, it's fun. But, yeah, I was just the best man.

into wedding Saturday. So I'm a little, uh, I had a good weekend. So we're a little refreshed now. Are you still wearing the taxi? You know, I see a collar. I didn't return it yet. It was a slow movement. Awesome. Well, John, thanks for doing this. Best of luck. I'm sure we'll hopefully have you back to talk about what happened. But I'm sure there's a lot coming. Keep up the great work. You've been killing it this year. Thanks for doing this. All right. My pleasure. Thanks. John, not only has he been busy, like, it's been fun to read him because he's, he has, he has a bit of a sharp edge to his writing. Like, John is not, even you could see like just

slightly like, hey, the Pigua sometimes gets tricked. Like, he's not afraid to to carp, and I like that out of a view there. He steers into turns. I respect it. It's awesome. What a year he's going to have an off season he's going to have. It's going to be busy. And I'm glad we were able to solve some of it for Buffalo.

They just would listen to our advice. It is fun. It's fun to imagine the Pigua is getting tricked. Some guy comes in and Nick Shidey coach. Yeah, he comes in is doing three card money on Terry's desk. He's like, ah, yeah? Uh-huh.

Make me the coach, please? All right, let's throw it a break and we'll come back. I think we've got a couple topics we haven't hit on that we know we want to. So let's take a break and then we're going to finish really strong here. Oh, we've got hot Matthew Kachuk rumors, my friend. Yes, the best kind. It was a big night. Shane O'Brien said.

on a Steve Cleo's podcast that maybe kind of sort of Matthew Kachuk might be sort of contemplating asking for his way out of Calgary and that's and that's- That sounds definitive. It's not a huge surprise because we know stuff there went sideways late and we'd heard reports whether it's from Elliot Friedman or from Haley Salvean that stuff certainly could have been better in Calgary by the end there. So we knew that there were some rumblings. That's a core, you know, built around Johnny Goddrow and Sean Monaghan, and they've just continually under-attieved. We saw Sam Bennett moved at the deadline. I mean,

there's, you know, there's some moving parts in Calgary right now. So it's not a surprise to see Matthew Kachuk's name pop up and stuff like that. It's not a surprise, mainly because everyone, I think, is anticipating him and Brady playing together eventually because they're really tight. It just seems like an inevitability at some point down the road, you know, that they're going to end up together. In St. Louis. Well, you, you swipe my genius idea out from under me. Oh, that's where you were headed. Sorry, go ahead. Let's make it, let's make it happen. Let's make it concrete. Matthew Kachuk's heading into the last year of his deal. He's got a 7 million Cap pit. He's got a huge base salary that the flames paid him because they signed him to one of those

funky bridge deals. Send him to St. Louis. Who cares what it costs? He can keep the house warm for Brady in a couple years. Let's reunite the current first family of American hockey in the great American city of St. Louis. Or just or just sent a chuck to the Rangers. Either or. Let's make it happen. Either one works for me. Doesn't. I agree. I don't, you know, it's, there are are too many Americans just toiling away in Canada right now. It's true. It is true. Austin Matthews, get them out of Toronto. Here's why, here's why when I saw someone float a ridiculous Matthew Kachuk for Jake Gensel trade last night. Do it. No, we don't want that to happen because we don't want Jake Gensel to end up in Calgary. Great point. It's a, it's a zero-sum American swap. Like,

We got to keep Jake Gensel in the States. We got to bring both kichucks ideally here in one way or another. And I think that process starts today. Okay, great, great. I wanted to, when yesterday news emerged that Tom Kervers had died from lung cancer. And Tom Kervers, like, I hope people listening to this were able to see that there was a moment of silence during the lightning game. And, you know, they recognized him. as somebody who was a big part of building that team.

And we, you know, he had a long stretch as an AGM in Tampa. And during the time when all of these players we talked about at the start of this podcast were acquired. And he's just one of those people that you never heard about, right? Like, he just quietly behind the scenes worked really hard, was influential in building powerhouse in Tampa, had an important voice in the Minnesota front office. but, you know, why that news hit me personally is because he, and I know we say this every time someone dies, I feel like, but Tom Kervers might have been the best guy to run into, to cross paths with an arena or a hotel lobby, like just a warm, friendly conversation every single

time. And like, you know, he didn't, like, who am I to know anybody in the game? And he just would stop and talk and remembered everybody and remembered what you were into. He knew I'm the complete dork who like has a book, the nose in his book at all times. And we would sit and he give me two or three book recommendations every time we talked. And it's just, you know, he was 58 years old, died from lung cancer. And it's heartbreaking because I barely know him and I was sad to hear, like just, you know, you hear that news and it's crushing. I'm at, like, people that were in his life, I just was really thinking about them. because just a quality guy that, like, you just, the outpouring yesterday was nonstop and seemed

very sincere. And I can tell you from my point of view, it was very sincere. And so I just, I wanted to highlight, you know, here is the guy that, you know, impact at the University of Minnesota, Duluth. Just wherever he went made an impact. And he wasn't a huge name. Like Tom Kervers isn't somebody that, you know, wasn't thrown around as the next grade GM for whatever reason.

He just quietly did his thing. And there's those people in hockey. And I hate that. It took him dying for us to have this conversation. But I'm glad that he's getting his due. Yeah. I only know Tom Kervers from stuff you've told me about him over the years. Like I remember him popping up and reporting that you did 10 years ago when we last

worked together, you know, just coming up in random stories. And yeah, I knew of him through you. And I knew how, you know, fond you were of him. And what a great guy sounded like. So yeah, it's a, it's a shame. It's a loss. It always, it always, it always is. Yeah.

And so to make a super clunky transition, but Scott Burnside was one of the people that first introduced me to Tom. And, and, you know, Scott is, as you know, Sean is like the cruise director of the hot space. Not just media, but with scouts. And he's organizing whatever's happening after the game. And so, like, Scott, he's got that same heart. Like, he, I think he introduced me to talk. And it was like, hey, Craig likes to read.

You guys both like to read and then, you know, walked away. And that started. And Scott, that's what makes Scott such a, that's why we love them, makes them such a great podcast host. This is my clunky transition. But it's true. You know, it's why, you know, the two-man advantage him and Pierre, it's just like sitting down at a bar and listen to them.

And they've got Rod Brindamoron, their pod. And I just wanted to highlight that. People should listen to that. Also, Scottie wrote one of my favorite things the last week or so, his story about his father's day story that ran. ran a couple days ago. I love, I love that. Just stories, you know, lessons, lessons from everybody across, across hockey about stuff their dad's taught them, whether it's Cammy Granato or Sydney Crosby or whatever. I thought that was a great read from a few days ago. And I think

that shows the kind of stuff that Scotty really does well, because he's got this roll-a-dex that is just unbeatable and he can get people to open up about, you know, all sorts of stuff. So, yeah, those guys are the best. Also, in the athletic hockey show, Max Baltman and Corey Promin are Friday, I think, not that I'm obsessed with our numbers, but they might have beat us last week in the ratings. And I would like to thank everyone listening to this because we have come out strong as the new kid in the week. But Max and Corey are, they may be our, I keep looking at Haley and Ian, but they may be the art travels. We've been way too nice to Max on this podcast. It's pro like I said, it's Pran season, baby. This is, this is what he does. It's, and it's Max, it's Max coming in, coming in a close second. Yeah.

So, can't spell prospects without Pranman. Is that good? Is that good? I think it's good. I think you can, though. It was good. You can't spell prospects without pro? Without, without Pronman prospects are just specs.

Wow. I think that's true. It tracks. I think it tracks. That's really good. That's really good, Sean. That's on Friday. Listen to those two.

I also wanted to, I'm going to use this time now to highlight comments, not just say go to the athletic app and comment on our podcast. We are going to talk about the comments because people are doing it and I love it. And Joel B, last week people were putting lists of words that we were banning from this podcast. Galaxy Brain. noticed Sean made it through. Almost said it. Almost said it today. I caught myself.

Oh, yes. Okay. Commenter from last week called us out on using Galaxy Brain. We banned it. We banned it completely. So Joel B, and I think we had another, and I forgot what the other phrase,

I should be writing these down on the big whiteboard next to me here in my, my own business session. At the end of the day, is that possible? Well, that was, so Joel B submitted on the comment section of our last podcast, which you can get in the athletic app.

I would submit at the end of the day as another ban phrase. Not sure how much. you guys use it. I don't think I do. Not much. But that makes it much easier for us to ban. His second part though is one of my, this is one of my crutches. He says, starting a sentence with yeah, no, like you go, you agree and then you go no, yeah, no, like I do that. I can hear myself doing that. Not one of those. I have plenty of other horrible vocal tics and habits that I'm always trying to break. But yeah, no, is not one of them. I think the one that I do still is say, like I said, I preface.

If you like I said as a media member like we get enough from athletes, I think it's terrible. Like I said before something that I didn't even say. I'm like, no. Like I didn't say. Like I didn't is like I said. My favorite like I said moment ever came. And I think you and I've talked about this.

A long time ago during an Olympic orientation camp, Ryan Suter comes out as like the first player available at this camp we just showed up at. So we're all fresh. we're all hey it's this middle of the summer we're talking Olympics we're excited hey Ryan how you doing first question hey Ryan what do you think of the Americans this year whatever the dumb first question was like I said uh what did you know I think we've got to and so I said Ryan you can't like I said on the first question of Orient you can't you busted him you busted him that's good I busted him but he goes well I was talking to I think Jim McGuire for some broadcasting earlier like I didn't

know he had some other session you can't like I didn't I didn't know that. You can't, like I said, the first question of a media scrum. You can't. That's on my own personal list. But yeah, I don't know if we've gotten called off for commenters because of that one. All right. So Philip R, we are going to ban, we are going to ban at the end of the day.

Or not Philip R. This is Jolby. We're going to ban at the end of the day. We're going to ban, yeah, no. But that's going to take some work. We're going to ban, like I said. And we've got Galaxy Brain already on the banned list. If you want to add more to those, go in.

The other commenter I wanted to highlight was Philip R. Because he said it was a good episode because I, I didn't shit on the world championships. Like, Philip, I want to defend myself here. If you heard me dogging the world championships at all, it was because Canada won gold. And so I didn't want to acknowledge that. I love the world championship. The last thing that Craig would ever want would be to besmirch the integrity of the world

championships. It's his favorite thing. It's my favorite thing in the world, Philip. And that's counting. Well, it's his third favorite thing in the world, but that also counts as kids. So it's behind two kids and ahead of one. He loves the world championships. I won't name names.

But yeah. No, I mean, clearly there's a pecking order with my children. The world championship slots right in there. So I just wanted to defend myself. Philip, I love the worlds. If I was at all giving them a hard time, it was because Canada won and I didn't want to acknowledge that. But Philip's second suggestion, he wants an international segment as part of our hockey show. Now, this is the American segment. It would be, I don't know how we could cram that in,

but as- We'll figure out a way. I like it. I saw that one. I like that. So maybe we find a way to plug in an international, like, you know, highlighting some game in Sweden where a prospect goes off. It might be a better fit for Max and Lori, Philip. But Sean and I like international hockey. I love the World Championships. Basically, I just wanted to defend myself there by highlighting that. That's what that's what this part of the show's for is defending yourself against against internet commenters much like Robin Lennar. Oh my gosh. Robin Lennar, if you want to leave a comment in the app, you just download the athletic app, go to the podcast. We make it really hard to find, by the way.

I forget every couple weeks. Yeah. But it's really, search for the podcast, go to details, go to the comments. And we will, we will, we'd like to interact with listeners because again that's how this whole podcast was started people wanted a more american podcast here we are last thing if you don't subscribe to the athletic then you can't do any of this because the app is part of the subscription and you want to get a deal go to the athletic dot com slash hockey show and you get in for 399 a month can't beat that Sean nope all right that's it thanks to john Vogel again for joining the podcast Sean, thank you for all of you.

Great work today. It is. Thank you. I thank myself for all of my great work. See you next week, buddy.