The Athletic Hockey Show - Buffalo Sabres dysfunction, Dom Luszczyszyn on Eichel trade value, playoff probabilities, Crosby offensive regression, and more, Multiple Choice Madness, and the Hailbag

Episode Date: March 1, 2021

First, Ian and Hailey discuss some headlines, including the obvious problems in the Buffalo Sabres organization, Jordan Binnington’s raucous exit from the Blues-Sharks game Saturday night, cautious optimism about the NHL’s COVID-19 protocols heading into March, and more.Then, The Athletic’s own Dom Luszczyszyn joins the show to talk about Jack Eichel’s potential value on the trade market, North Division playoff probabilities, whether the Blackhawks or Kings have a better chance to make the playoffs, Sidney Crosby’s slight offensive regression, Evgeni Malkin’s elite years possibly coming to an end, and more.Plus, to close things out, Ian, Hailey, and Dom run through a series of Multiple Choice Madness questions, and in another installment of the Hailbag, the group answers questions about the Maple Leafs and whether they’re good, feasting on poor goaltending, or both, a hypothetical Jack Eichel trade, and more.And, don’t forget, you can sign up for an annual subscription to The Athletic for just $3.99 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshowThe Athletic listener survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/athleticaudiosurvey Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

And we're back for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show. I'm Ian Mettis alongside Haley Salvi. And on this episode of the show, we'll focus on the dysfunction in Buffalo, where it feels like things are ready to boil over. We'll chat about Jordan Bittington's meltdown against the sharks on Saturday. Dom Luce Chichen, we'll find out if I pronounce that correctly. He's going to drop by for an episode of Dom, Dumber, and Dumbest. Yes, that is the name of the segment.

and we'll ask our resident stats and analytics guru for some updated playoff odds as we hit the month of March. We'll do some multiple choice madness dip into some of your questions as well. And actually, we have questions for you. We want to remind you that you can participate in our second annual listener survey at the athletic. All you got to do is you can click on, you see the episode description here, click on the link there. That'll take you to a survey. It just takes you a couple of minutes to fill out. we want to know how we can be better for you.

We would love to get your feedback and tell us what you like and maybe what you don't like about our show. So Haley Salvin, you tell me, here's a survey question for you. Dom Luce Chichen. Did I get it right this time or what? No, I think we need to just give up with you trying. So what did I do wrong here? It's just you're adding like a chuh to it when it's a shun.

It's Domloose Chishin. Yeah. I still think this is, I think I was close. than I've ever been before. Yeah, you're getting there, but it's still not right. Yeah. Kind of feels like a description for the Calgary Flames. Getting there, but maybe just not quite right.

We're in the middle of the Kachuk brothers battling it out, Haley. And I know a lot of people were curious to see, because we had Keith on the show last week. And Keith was like, the boys aren't fighting. And then, of course, everybody was like, I wonder if they're going to fight. Then Matthew shut that down. We haven't even seen them so much as like,

poke each other in a scrum, have we? No, I think the closest that, you know, we've ever even seen to something happening, like Brady and Matthew do their thing against everyone else. But then we see these really funny close-ups on camera of them, like, reacting to it. I know. I remember last year, I think Brady ran at David Riddick and Matthew was on the ice. And usually Matthew would be the first one in to defend Big Save Dave in last season. like we saw him not do anything. He was just like,

don't do that. Like he was kind of in it, but not really. But then I thought it was really funny in the last game with, you know, Mark Giordano, he was feeling it. Like he was, he was coming in hot with the chirps. You saw it in warm up. I don't know if you saw what he said to Connor Brown. Yeah. After that big hit back in the gym, which is a, you know, pretty legendary for the 37-year-old,

young and fresh with the chirps. But we saw Brady got the penalty. late in the game against Gio and then he pushed Gio when he was down and then the camera just kept zooming in on Matthew and Matthew's on the bench just kind of laughing like go get back at him G like give it back to him give it back to him so it's funny but you know I think it's uh I don't quite understand why everyone thinks they're going to fight I get it like I know other brothers have fought it's like a funny storyline but obviously the brothers aren't like gung ho for that narrative the dad's not gung ho for that narrative so I wonder if we should

should just save some face and stop asking them so they don't say we're all idiots. Yeah, exactly. We're not going to see that happen. But Haley, I think the biggest story in the NHL right now, biggest story in the NHL, it's not Kachuk v. Kachuk. It is maybe Eichel v. Kruger. What on earth is happening in Buffalo? You know, I let John Vogel's piece today in the athletic phenomenal.

Does a great job. John does a great job of kind of painting the picture for those of us who are not inside the Buffalo market what they're dealing with. And it feels like utter dysfunction from a lack of communication between Kruger and Eichel on Eichael's injury last week to Jeff Skinner not being kind of kind of being in the doghouse to Taylor Hall not producing to like everything it is boiling over. Do you feel like we have reached some sort of boiling point in Buffalo? Because when I read John Vogel today, Haley, I feel like something's got to happen here in the next couple of days. Yeah, well, I read John's piece this morning as well, you know, even before we started

prepping for the podcast, really, and I just thought he, he hit the nail right on the head in so many ways. I mean, he, you know, just right off the bat, it's time for change. There's no way around it. And I would agree with that. But, you know, there's just so many things that are going wrong in Buffalo right now. And once again, like, it wasn't supposed to be like this. I mean, I'm sure people could have looked into their crystal ball and said, no, there's no way. Buffalo. was going to get out of it. You know, they're cursed or whatever it may be. But, you know, it wasn't supposed to be like this.

The Sabres made some moves. They thought they were going to be good this year. Obviously, bringing in Taylor Hall. You know, I just think that there was, at least from some people, this feeling that things might be different this season. And it's not. It's arguably worse because there were more expectations. I wonder if that's fair to say.

And obviously, it's just not working. And as John kind of went through, there's just, you know, there's a lot that's going wrong. It's really difficult to maybe pinpoint exactly what the problem is, and it's difficult to even know where to start. You know, they, I think they didn't score a single goal this weekend. They lost three nothing multiple times. When you, again, you look at Taylor Hall, Jack Eichol, Jeff Skinner, like, those guys are making money and they're not, they're either not playing, they're either not producing. It's just a really difficult situation. and we saw that kind of weird coaching that happened.

You know, I know Ralph Kruger kind of got, you know, put under the microscope a little bit because of, you know, whatever it was that happened with the injury situation. So, I mean, Kruger said that he, like, so Jack Eichel sat out Thursday's game with a lower body injury, but he dressed for the pregame skate. And Kruger said that the injury should. showed up in warm up and caught everyone by surprise. But then Eichel said, no, I didn't. I hurt myself in New Jersey on Tuesday. So two, three days, I guess three days before. So then Kruger had to backtrack and say, you know, no, this isn't gamesmanship here. You know, I just didn't know about that

specific injury. He aggravated something else. And I didn't know about that until warm up. And it's just, it's all just bizarre. Like I don't know, I'm not in that room. I don't know the coaches. I don't know the players. So I don't know, you know, exactly what's happening here. But just reading that story from John, it's just a mess. And I don't know how they're supposed to fix it, because do you blow it up right now? Like, they're not saving the season. So do the Pugulas want to fire a coach to pay two guys in the middle of a pandemic when they're not going to make the playoffs regardless of what happens? Like, do they just ride it out? Do they try to sell everybody? Are they going to start making trades.

I don't know what the solution is, but again, I just don't know if making a coaching change right now is what they're going to do when again, the season seems like it's gone. It's lost. They have 37 games left, but how much room can you really make up just by changing your coach? And you're probably not going to get that coach for two weeks. So I don't know what the answer is, but they need to do something. Right. And I think, you know, the Eichel and Kruger miscommunication, as you kind of described it,

I think the only thing that does for us on the outside is gives us a window into the dysfunction or the lack of communication or the lack of trust. Like something's a mister. I thought John Vogel's piece today was great, Haley. Like just listen to this rundown of the lack of productivity from elite players. Okay. Jack Eichel, two goals in 17 games. Taylor Hall, no goals in 18 games.

Jeff Skinner, no goals, one assist in 16 games. Kyle Okposo, no goals and one assist in 14 games. I mean, your high-level guys, your impact guys, aren't getting it done. So here's the question. I feel like as we talk about this, it's reaching a boiling point. You just laid out why it might be very difficult to, in a COVID year, make a coaching change. I mean, the Montreal Canadiens did it, Haley, but they had somebody on staff and Dominic Dusharim, who they felt like, okay, we don't have to abide by any quarantining

issues. We can simply, you know, bring them in. That might not be the case in Buffalo. So let me ask you this question. Who lasts longer in Buffalo, Haley, Jack Eichel or Ralph Krueger? Well, honestly, Ian, kind of like I said before with just how, you know, strange it would be to make a coaching change again. We did see that with the Montreal Canadiens. But John did laid out pretty smoothly in the piece too. He did, like we've said, he did a really great job. But, you know, a coaching change isn't as simple as just calling up, you know, one of the guys who are sitting at home and saying, hey, do you want to come coach in Buffalo? They'd have to quarantine. That would take at least one week or two weeks. And as John said, they have seven games in the next 13

days. So if they're going to make a coaching change right now, that's seven games where they're going to have either an assistant or one of their coaches from the Rochester Americans, which they don't have that much pro experience. So what are you actually going to benefit from from getting rid of Ralph Krueger and having, you know, a coach with way less experience in the National Hockey League? I think it's easier. You know, there are quarantine requirements for trades. but I think it's probably easier to make trade. And at least if you're the Buffalo Sabres, you fire coach, you have to bring in a different one, you're spending more money, et cetera, et cetera, like we already mentioned.

But if you're trading Jack Eichel and you're bringing pieces back, I mean, I'm not coming out here and saying like the Buffalo Sabers need to trade Jack Eichael, but if I had to maybe say, like I would, I think that Ralph Krueger, because of how strange this year is, might last longer than Jack Eichael because the trade deadline's coming up. We're in March now. So the trade deadline's coming up in around 40 days. As we mentioned in our last show, he does have that. He does have a full, he has a much more, you know, strict no move clause coming up in his

deal in the next couple years. This might be the time where the Buffalo Sabres say, okay, maybe we need to move Jack Eichael. And maybe Jack Eichol is finally saying, you know what, no, I'm done. So I think if I had to put money on it, I would say, that Ralph Kruger might last longer just because of the nature of this weird season. Yeah, it's going to be really interesting to see. I feel like as the calendar flips to March, I feel like the odds of both Kruger and Eichl being in Buffalo

or things being status quo in Buffalo when we flip the calendar to April seems minimal. Like it feels like something's going to happen there. And it's going to be something significant. So if Jack Eichael ends up being on the trade, you know, on the trade market in the rumor mills here, Haley, the question then becomes, what's he worth on the open market? And I think it's going to be interesting because I think his skill set, his age, his the position that he plays, really, to me,

there's like eight or nine players in the league where I wouldn't trade them for Ikel. But after that, I'd be, I'd be game to trade virtually anybody for Jack Eichael because I think his upside is tremendous. So as we look at this, and the one team that keeps coming up is the Rangers, because everyone says, look, David Quinn's their coach. He knows Jack. Maybe this is a great fit. You get Eichel to the Big Apple.

So I'm going to throw something out at you. You tell me who says no. And it can't be straight up Eichel for Lafranier because I just feel like Eichel is much more established. So here's the potential deal I'm throwing out. Who says no, Haley? Jack Eichel to the Rangers for Lafranier and the goalie Chesterkin. Who says no?

Well, I know that our producer, Chris, would say no. Because he heard you did. When he looked at the rundown, he was like, no, no. So I will, you know, give Chris the love there. He says no. But honestly, I don't know if, if the, I know things haven't been, you know, swimming and golden and awesome to start the, you know, his NHL career.

I think Alexei Lafaneers can be fine. I just, do you really trade your first overall pick and, you know, one of your star goalies for for Jack Eichael. I think that I would probably say no just because of the potential that's there. With Alexei Lafranier, the potential of their goaltender, I would say no. And I think the Rangers would probably say no. Yeah. Well, anyway, that's going to be for sure.

Would you say yes? Yeah, I would. I would. Why? Why? Maybe I'm overly bullish on Eichol. I think Jack Eichel is a legit superstar stud and guys like that don't become available all that often. And that's not to say that Lafranier can't become that as well, but I don't know.

I guess I'm just a big fan of Jack Eichael. I think that if you get this guy into the right spot in the right place, I think he could take off. So there's only a handful of guys I wouldn't trade for him. And after that, I would say all bets are off. Now, the Sabres, of course, Haley, and their fan base are going to be super reluctant because the last time they traded a legitimate, you know, high-end centerman was Ryan O'Reilly, right? They traded away O'Reilly. That came back to bite them.

O'Reilly wins a cons might than Stanley Cup in St. Louis does it with Jordan Bittington. And Bittington is in the news this weekend, Haley, for the way that he exited Saturday's game against San Jose. So for those people who haven't seen the footage, Biddington gets pulled. in the middle of this game against San Jose, and as he's leaving the ice, he does a skate by of the sharks' bands and he chats at them and he's chirping at them. He skates by Eric Carlson,

appears to kind of give him like a little bit of a blocker punch kind of thing to the face. Then he gets into it with Devin Dubnick on his way off the ice. So I want to know. How do we feel about Jordan Binnington's exit? Was this acceptable behavior from a competitive goalie, or was that an example of poor sportsmanship?

I mean, to like flip it on people, I can understand why people watch that clip and said, you know, he's having a little tantrum. Like he's, that's like not cool. That's unsportsmanlike. But how come it's unsportsman like for a goaltender to do that when the skaters do that all the time? Skaters don't get pulled. But we've seen forwards. We've seen defensemen go at goalies, go at each other. There's scrums after the whistle all the time. So why do we not call those unsportsman like?

Like, I know Bennington was just kind of running at people and doing cheap shots. So I do agree with people saying, like, why is he doing that? But, I mean, I think he was emotional. I think he was probably upset about the poll. He was upset about his play. I don't think it's a terrible thing. I don't think it's great. Like, I didn't watch that and say, like, that's a real awesome competitor.

Like, well done. But I also didn't watch it and say, like, you're the worst, if that makes sense. I just, we see scrums after whistles all the time. We see guys cheap shoting each other all the time. So, I mean, I think it's different to see it from a goalie who just got pulled, who's just kind of looking for somebody to go at because it's a bit more rare for that position. But in terms of the game, it's not all that rare. Yeah, I think one of the things that struck me from watching Bennington,

and I only saw the replay, right? So I wasn't watching the game live. But one of the things that struck me, Haley, it's very rare that we see what I would classify as genuine emotion in hockey anymore, right? And so I'm very careful to not want to stamp that out, right? Like, I think if we all just rally around and point a finger at Jordan Bennington say, man, you're wrong. Like, there's a fine line. Now, did he maybe cross it a little bit? Yeah, maybe he did.

But this wasn't the most egregious thing that we've ever seen. I like it. I like seeing raw emotion from athletes. It's just, it's quirky, right? Because the way he got pulled there, he kind of had to exit stage right. Like, it's not like, you know, oftentimes if a goal that gets pulled, they'll go to their own bench and walk off, right? But this was kind of the way that the arena is set up in the different

configuration there. He kind of had to go all the way across it. And maybe that was part of it too. But there was one moment there where I thought we were going to see a goalie fight. Like when Duke Nick came out. Yeah. Yeah. And if you had to ask me on a list of things that I did not think we would ever come close to seeing in the pandemic year would be a goalie fight. And we came a hair, an inch away from seeing that happen on Saturday, right? Yeah. No, we did. And I definitely agree with what you're saying about. You don't want to stamp out emotion. And I think that goes hand in hand a bit with some of the stuff that we deal with as media members. Like how often do we say we want emotion? We want personal.

from players. And then we see that and go, oh, but not like that or oh, not that much, you know, and then the players are just like, why would I ever say anything to ever again? You know, why? Like, this is, it all comes down. It's a bit of a chicken and the egg situation with hockey players, how, you know, they're cliche. They can be dry. Okay, is it because they're like that? Or is it because they've been burned too many times for showing their personality and showing their motion? And people don't. They're just like, oh, we don't like that. Don't do it like that. So I definitely agree. Bennington, you know, running at guys on his way out. I mean, it's like you said, it's not the most egregious thing we've ever seen. It's not the best thing we've ever seen, like I said, too.

Like, it's not awesome. You're not watching that and saying like right on like Binnington, right on, love that. But you're not, I didn't watch it and say like, oh, my stars, you know, I wasn't clutching my pearls. But a goalie fight in the pandemic, like that wouldn't, that would have been like one of the last spots on the bingo card, you know? Totally. Just like pandemic hockey season goalie fight. Yeah. Wouldn't have seen.

Between St. Louis and San Jose. It would have been like a Battle of Alberta one, if anything, but even not then, because I know Marks from Eddick have both said, like, we're not, that's not what we do. We're not boxers. We're goalies. But I didn't have that written down on my bingo card. Yeah. Well, you know, as we continue the conversation about, you know, kind of pandemic hockey here, Haley,

You know, one of the storylines, I think, in the month of February, was the fact that we saw so many games get postponed. We saw so many teams get ravaged by COVID. And now, as we go into March, I'm going to use the word or the phrase, cautiously optimistic. And I say that because whereas, you know, two, three weeks ago, it felt like we were inundated with teams being shut down on a regular basis. I believe as we sit here right now, there's only one or two.

two active cases in the entire league. We know enough about this virus to know that you never put up the mission accomplished banner, right? Like we're always one misstep away from plummeting right back into where we were. But I got to tell you, it feels a little bit better on that front than it was at the beginning of February, right? Yeah, definitely. I think, again, like you said, you know, we're not out of the woods yet.

everyone still needs to stay careful. They need to stay vigilant with this virus, you know, especially in certain cities where we've seen higher numbers. But I think it is, you know, it is probably nice. I mean, it is nice to see that we're getting a little bit back to, you know, the bubble, whereas all the testing numbers were coming out in the playoff bubble. And it was always, you know, pre-bubble, there was some positive tests. I remember that. But inside the bubble, once a playoff started, it was zero.

zero zero zero zero I don't think they had a single positive test in the playoff bubble so it is really great to see that we're getting back to that because it did get a little bit you know there was a lot of really fair questions being raised about what's going on here um why isn't this working you know what didn't you implement that you should have why are we even playing hockey right now and i think there was a lot of really fair um questions raised a lot of fair criticism while we were seeing so many players enter the protocol list, enter in people testing positive for COVID. We had John Vogel on and he asked some very fair questions and he had a lot of great

stuff from how the Buffalo Sabres felt about the COVID situation after playing against the New Jersey Devils. So I think we're heading into this place where, you know, maybe people are feeling a little bit safer. You know, obviously only one active case right now is is a hell of a lot better than where we were at a few weeks ago. So it's just a much better situation. It's safer for the players, their families, the coaches, and their safety, obviously,

is the most important thing this year. All right, Haley. I think we do this once a month, right? We did it in January. We did it in February. Now we've flipped over to March. It is a little Dom, Dumber and Dumbus, with our pal, Dom Luch Chichen. Did I get it right this time, Dom Luch Chichen?

Jesus Christ, Ian. Come on. He asked me this already. Like, you literally said it the exact. exact same as the start of the show when I told you it was wrong. The first time I said Dom Luce Chichen, now I'm saying Dom Lutzchichin, and you're telling me it's wrong both times. Yeah. I figured you'd learn by now. No, this is part of the stick. It's about the respect for your colleagues, I think. Yeah, or lack thereof. Hey, welcome back. He is, of course, our analytics

stats guru. Always great to have you joining the podcast, Dom. And the thing we want to start off with is the situation in Buffalo seems to be boiling over and you're hearing from a lot of people that Jack Eichael might be in play. So the question that we have for a guy like you is what's the value based on his age, the position he plays, the productivity that Jack Eichael could potentially have

if he were a trade commodity right now? It's so hard to say because a player like Jack Eichael is not available very often the elite number one center quota of every championship team is the hardest to fill. And unless you're tanking, usually can't get one in a trade. So the fact that Ikel is potentially out there is huge. And the last time a player of his caliber was trade was probably Tyler Sagan. And you look at what Boston ended up with from that trade, it was a whole lot of nothing.

So the goal for Buffalo should be to do a lot better than that. Okay, so the bar is just don't get Louis Erickson in return. That is the key to this. Hey, listen, one of the things that I love reading from you, Dom, is your playoff probabilities. And I just want to start by asking you a little bit about the North Division here. And I'll ask you about because we've seen some teams like Vancouver and Calgary and Montreal go through some really tough stretches in the month of February. and I'm just wondering from a statistical model perspective, how have the playoff odds in the North Division altered in the last four weeks?

Well, if you go on the athletic, you can see a little chart I made with the lines that show, I guess, the roller coaster everyone's on. And the start of the month, Calgary looked very, very good. And as Haley probably knows, they started looking quite bad. and it's a little strange because you see the talent on the roster. They just got Jacob Markstrom who should have solidified the goal-tending position, and it just hasn't worked as expected. So it's been very weird,

and they've gone from being a solid playoff bet to probably being on the outside looking in with four teams ahead of them. Vancouver, I mean, they looked like the sixth best team going into the season, and that's played out exactly, and they've looked probably even worse than that. And I would think that a bad month of February has pretty much done this season in for them because I don't see them coming back from this. Do you still see, you know, Vancouver out of it, but do you still see there being a bit of like a mushy middle for this division having, you know, Toronto number one?

Edmontons maybe pulled away a little bit as the number two. and then is it just going to be a bit of a fight between Montreal, Winnipeg and Calgary to get the last spot or two? I think so. I think right now Edmonton, Montreal and Winnipeg are pretty comfortable. And I know you don't want to hear that personally because you probably want to cover some playoff hockey. But there's a pretty big gap between Winnipeg and Calgary. And that gap might be even larger because my model, for whatever reason, isn't a big fan of Winnipeg. and they have some very weak underlying numbers.

It looks like they're propped up by some hot shooting and goal tending, but at the same time, it's a team with a lot of talent. And last year, their goals percentage was around six percentage points higher than their expected goals percentage. So that's something that they might be able to sustain this year as well. And that needs to be something that's kept in mind when looking at their numbers. And my model potentially underrating their chances, because they do have a lot of points in the bank,

right now and why do you think they might regress, they're probably not as bad as my model suggests. Now, Tom, staying on the topic of kind of playoff odds here as we move into March, I don't think a lot of us thought that the Chicago Blackhawks or the L.A. Kings would be in a position to maybe make the playoffs. I think a lot of us figured that their window to be a champion had long since closed and that they were sort of entering this rebuilding phase. As you look at those two teams, former, you know, heavyweights in Chicago or LA. Who's got the better chance of making the playoffs this season? Blackhawks are Kings?

I definitely think it's the Blackhawks because it's not that I think either team is exceptionally good, but the Blackhawks have a bit of an easier path in the Central because the stars have sort of struggled of late, and there is an opening there. And I think Kevin Lankinen has provided a lot of stability in that for Chicago that a lot of people didn't expect. And they have a few rookies that are really performing better than anyone thought they could. With the Kings, they had a nice recent stretch, but I still am not buying it. They are not a great possession team. Their lineup is thin outside of their top line, and I think they're getting a lot from their power play that I just don't expect to continue. The other issue is

that with the way Minnesota is playing, it's looking very hard to see a 15 break up the previous top three of Colorado, Vegas and St. Louis. And St. Louis, when they get healthy, I think they can turn things back around. Your favorite hockey team, Minnesota Wild. I love them. One of the things that Ian and I kind of had here that we did want to pick your brain on is, are we seeing a regression at least when it comes to offensive, statistics in Sydney Crosby this season? A little bit, and it's disappointing for me personally because I drafted him on my fantasy team thinking, all right, this is my first round pick.

It was a keeper league, so he was available. And I'm like, okay, this guy's going to bring us to the promised land. And he's sort of been a little slower, but I think the biggest issue is the Penguin's power play right now. And if Gini Malkin has not looked himself at all, and that's sort of, you know, he's a taken a key cog out of that machine that's usually in the top 10. And that's going to take away a lot of Crosby's potential production. So once Malkin figures it out if he does, I think we'll see that power play start

clicking again a lot better. And Crosby's production should go up a bit because at 5 on 5, he's still doing very well. Well, you had a story last week about Fgeny Malkin just looking at, you know, are his elite years over. What did you find in digging into Malkin? One of the weirdest things is Malkin is not getting chances in tight this season. And we've all watched him for the past decade. And it seems like he has never had trouble getting in tight. He is very strong. He's very fast. He can do it all. And this year he's struggling to get those chances. He's shooting a lot from the outside. There's times where it seems like he has an opportunity, but he just throws it

on net. And it's hard to score when you're not going to the dirty areas. And that's often a cliche that's used against some players. But for Malkin, there is a legitimate change you can see in the data from year to year that is very unmalkin-like. So don't, listen, we're going to actually get you to stick around if you're cool with this for multiple choice madness. And you actually asked to not, you wanted to just run through this. and I like this about you. You know, you're going into this and you're going to answer with just your gut instinct, right?

Yeah, that's how we do things. Yeah, but I like this because I think you have the reputation of being so well-researched, well-thought-out, and, you know, kind of statistically driven. I actually like this approach from you saying, you know what, I don't want to see your questions. I'm going to answer with my gut. So I like this.

This is a nice little wrinkle sheet. Hold on. Let me pause you right there. I am not, like, I didn't research before this podcast. You sent me questions and I just like, all right, those are questions. And like, these things are just, they're already in my brain, I think, because I'm just always like looking at it. So I don't know if it's just that research has become secondhand. I don't realize it is.

But it's just already there. That's why I don't feel like I needed to prepare for the multiple choice. So we'll see how I do. Were you like this in high school? Were you one of those kids that didn't need the study? Yeah. That was me. I'm so glad.

I'm so glad we didn't know each other in university. Yeah, you would have hated me. I didn't take notes. I barely paid attention, didn't really try. I focused only on my journalism classes, and I got A's and those, and every elective was a C, and I'm like, all right, that's good enough. I don't care. I didn't try very hard, and I'm still here, so that's a lesson to all of you people

out there. Effort is overrated. Yeah, well, on the other side of that. So Dom and I, Dom and I were like two years apart in Ryerson journalism, I think. So we both went to the same program. Dom's like an older man. So he was ahead of me by like two years. And we both had Sean Fitzgerald, who works for the athletic as a professor.

And Sean was one of the ones who helped me get this job at the athletic. But I'm pretty sure when Dom, like, applied for the athletic. Sean was like, I had him in school. He wasn't, he didn't try very hard. Yeah, I didn't apply. I slid into Myrtle's DMs for freelance opportunities. And Myrtle, I think, talked to Sean, and Sean said, are you sure? And then told him about the time in sports journalism.

I don't even know what number it was. I'm just going to say 101, just to bug Sean a bit. Yeah. I think I was already freelancing for the hockey news at the time. so I didn't care too much about a sports journalism class. And I told him that later. He's like, okay, that makes a lot more sense. And still something we joke about.

Yeah. Long story short, we had very different university. Approaches. Yeah. Approaches. Okay. Then this is perfect. We're going to put those two approaches to the test here because Haley has seen these questions.

I know Haley enough to know that she's probably done some research. on these. Dom, on the other hand, has not seen these questions. It is multiple choice madness. Here we go. Here's question number one today. Okay. Patrick Cain scored his 400th career goal over the weekend. Here is my question. Does Patrick Cain deserve the mantle of the best American born hockey player of all time? Your options are obviously A yes, B, no. Haley Salvean, Patrick Cain, best American born hockey player of all time. I think it's really difficult. to compare, you know, I guess, eras. I think there's players who played a long time ago who you could say,

oh, well, because I think, you know, Keith Kachuk, for example, he remains to be the only American-born player to ever lead the league in scoring. He does have a pretty decent hockey hall of fame case. Yeah. What, Dom? Patrick Kim led the league in scoring. No, he's the only player. He's the only American-born player to, like, have the most goals in the NHL.

Oh, goals. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Goals in the NHL. Okay. I think my points. No, no, no. Like goals.

He remains to be the only U.S. born player to lead the NHL in goals scored. But at the same time in saying that, like Patrick Kane's still playing. There's guys who retired who are in the Hall of Fame or who have X, Y, Z record. But, I mean, yeah, I think that he is the best player right now. I think there's maybe some players who might pass him. But I would say, yes, Patrick Kane is the best American-born player. Yeah, I was going to go with Option C on that wavelength of players that might pass him. Patrick Kane is the best American-Bore player right now.

And he will be for, I would say, the next 10 years until Austin Matthews de-thrones him. And I think that is not, I don't think that's too hot of a take. I think it will happen. Okay, but here's my only counter to that is that Kane has won three Stanley Cups. has been a money postseason performer. And I think that that is part of the narrative on Kane, right? Like I think when Chicago was running high, he was the clutch guy. And for Matthews to get into that strategy, like Matthews could be this generation's

Mike Medano or like a Pat La Fontaine, unbelievable statistical numbers, but does Matthews need to get postseason success? Like to me, that's a big part of Kane's legacy is the three Stanley Cups. But would you argue that Alex Ovechkin's not the best goal score right now? he only has one Stanley Cup. Or until he won that Stanley Cup, he wasn't either because he didn't have that ring. I just, I think that's a team award, and I don't love the ring argument, especially in hockey, where one player doesn't have as much of an impact.

And that's just as much Taves's and Keith's Stanley Cup as it is, Keynes. And there's bit players on those teams that have three cups and no one gives them the same reverence. obviously he played a very big role and he is a clutch playoff performer but Toronto is still on the cusp and they may get there still and Matthews will be the one leading to charge for that. We both say yes. You both say yes. All that is just yes.

With an asterisk that he might get past at some point. Okay. Here's question number two. We're going to look back in the month of February. I'm going to throw out four stories that came out in the month of February. You tell me what was the most surprised. story to you in the month of February. Is it A. Brian Burke back in the game takes over as the president of hockey operations in

Pittsburgh. Is it B? The Montreal Canadiens firing head coach Claude Julian. Is it C? The New York Rangers cutting ties with Tony DiAngelo or D. Chicago Blackhawks were on fire in the month of February and they're kind of comfortably sitting in a playoff spot in the Central Division. Dom. Brian Burke, Claude Julian, Tony DeAngelo, Chicago. most surprising storyline of February for you? That is a tough one. I don't think any team going to hot streak is that surprising me anymore because it just

happens every year and just like, oh, I guess Chicago's doing that. Cool. And I was just happy to be betting on the Blackhawks a lot during that streak. Brian Burke is a hockey man and hockey man have 19 million lives. So again, not surprising. Montreal is absolutely insane. So Claude Julian getting fired, not surprising either. Tony DiAngelo getting blacklisted from the league, basically, I think was the most

surprising to me and not because I think it's a bad thing. It's because I just didn't think an HL team would have the stones to do it. All right, Dom's goal with Tony DeAngelo. What about you, Haley? Yeah, just so we don't agree on everything, because I think that's always boring for people to listen to people just nod and say, yeah, I think so too. It's because we're twins. I'm going to say, yeah, it's true, unfortunately.

I would say that the HAB's firing Claude Julian was a bit surprising. At the same time, I agree when Dom says, you know, it's not that shocking because I think there's a lot of pressure and anticipation right now for the Montreal Canadians and in that market. But I think heading into the season, and especially if we like roll the tape back and hear the things we were saying about the Montreal Canadians a month ago. We were arguing that they were maybe one of the best teams in the division. Look at how great the Montreal Canadians were. So I think if we just look at the expectation and what we were talking about, you know, a couple weeks,

you know, a month ago when we first started the podcast, I would say that if you would have told me then that Claude Julian was going to get fired because the Habs lost the Sends twice and they, you know, started progressing a little bit, I would have been shocked. So I'm going to say that that's the most surprising to me. Yeah, I mean, you go back and we were ready to engraved Mark Bergevin's name on GM of the year in February. And now that is certainly taken a turn. On to question number three, here's what I want to know. I'm going to lay out some potential playoff matchups involving geographic rivals, okay? You tell me what's the one all state or all provincial playoff matchup you want to see this year. Is it A, the Florida Panthers against the Tampa Bay

Lightning, B, the Pittsburgh Penguins against the Philadelphia Flyers, or C, Edmonton versus Calgary. Haley, you can pick one all-state or all-provincial matchup you want to see this year. What are you going with? I mean, it's pretty obvious for me. I would selfishly love to cover a Battle of Alberta playoff series, so those games are awesome. Even before I moved to Calgary, I thought they were must-watch games and, you know, with the play-in

series and the way things restructure. structured last year, we got stolen, or that was stolen away from us. Like, we were supposed to have a Battle of Alberta in the playoffs last year if things all went normal. I believe that's the way things were shaking out. But with the kind of everything that changed with the bubble, we didn't get to have that. So that's, it's see for me easily. Don, same question to you. Florida, Tampa, Pittsburgh, Philly, Edmonton, Calgary. What would you want to see? I don't think anyone needs another Pittsburgh Philly series. We've had enough with those.

I think Tampa, Florida, I don't think it's ever happened, and it would be awesome to have that, but you gotta be crazy if you're not taking a battle with Alberta here. I mean, there's so much fireworks between the two teams.

It would be a bloodbath, and I want to see that. See, I think I want to see Florida, Tampa, only because I think, like you said, we've never seen it, right? We've never seen a playoff match, but they've both been in the league since the 90s.

So I don't know. I'm kind of intrigued by something that we've never seen, although I believe we have not seen Edmonton, Calgary, since 1991 in a playoff series. So that's pretty much a 30-year drought there. Speaking of the number 30, onto question number four, multiple choice madness, it is which member of the L.A. Kings, who's north of the age of 30 is having the best season, in your opinion? Is it A, Anse C. C. C. Dau-Dar, B. Dustin Brown. C. Drew Doughty or D. D. D. D. D.E. the goaltender, Jonathan Quick.

All right. So Dom, you get to go first on this one. They're all north at 30. Copitar, Brown, Dowdy, and Quick. Who's having the most impressive season for the L.A. Kings for you? Definitely not quick because he's not even the best goalie on his team. So I will take Anzay Copatar. He's been amazing. He's looked very close to his peak self. He's turned L.A. into a one-line team that can actually win. And he's getting a lot of points. he's, I think, driving play as good as he used to. And I'm not as impressed with Dowdy just because he has a lot of points. And Brown, I think, is a product of Kopitar.

So I think that has to be the answer for me. Haley, Copatar, Brown, Dowdy, and Quick. I'm going to go with Dustin Brown. I mean, he has 11 goals in the last 20 games. He's leading the team in scoring. He has 17 points just behind Kopitar. And, you know, like Dom said, he could be a bit of a product of Kopitar. strong play, but he is still finding the back of the net. And, you know, last season, he only

had 17 goals. And he's already more than halfway there through 20 games the season. So I think, you know, this could be a pretty good year for Dustin Brown. And, you know, we could see some regression because they are all over 30. And I don't think the LA Kings might, I mean, they might not sustain this pace. But I'm going to say Dustin Brown, you know, he could, he could hit 20 goals this year and that would be the first time he's done that since I think I guess 2018 19 he had 22 goals um so I'm going to say Dustin Brown yeah you know the funny thing on Dustin Brown but four years ago I thought he was done like I was like this guy is finished and then I think he had like a 28 goal year uh maybe three or four years ago and he kind of I don't want to say he's had a second

act here where everybody's actually been more effective than I thought he would be so I kind to tend to agree with you okay fifth and final question on this Monday uh multiple choice badness here Now, this is I'm going to throw this out. You tell me, good idea, bad idea. Maybe it's somewhere in between. So this year, the NHL, of course, has four separate divisions and they only play within the division. So because of that, I want to know, do you think the league should hand out individual awards for each division at the end of the regular season? I.e., here's your MVP for the Central Division.

It's Patrick Kane. Here's your MVP for the North Division. It's Austin Matthews, et cetera, et cetera. Yes or no? Good idea. Bad idea. Haley. No. I don't know why I just think no. Maybe I'm one of those like really cranky like old man yells at Cloud who doesn't like change. But no, like I would just like to see who's the league MVP. I think you can have players who are really good in each division, but who's the best player in the league. That's what I want to know.

I think Haley just doesn't want to do four times as much work with her awards ballot. For the voting. Yeah. Oh, that took me so long. You only to vote on the ballot on the division that you cover. right oh okay i didn't know that i didn't explain that part there i i like the idea because it really does feel like four separate leagues right now but i wonder if the the right way to do it would be to have four nominees for each award and one from each division and go that route but yeah then again you have probably the two heart favorites coming from the north and that might not be fair to Austin Matthews to not get that nom. I thought you were talking about martyr and dry sidel there.

Okay, good thing you clarified. Good thing you clarified. Okay, listen, we're actually going to keep you around even longer, Dom. You didn't realize this. We're just going to open up the mailbag here. And we got some questions thrown at us from Twitter. And I'm going to throw these out to both of you. I'm going to start with this one here from Max.

The Columbus Blue Jackets gang have lost five consecutive games. There's talk that maybe the seat under John Totorella has gone for from kind of warm or tepid to hot. So here's the question from Max on Twitter. Hey, guys, what is going on with Columbus? Could there be a coaching change? What do we think? What's going on in Columbus?

I don't know because they looked great last year. They were a strong defensive team. And then this year, with mostly the same personnel, it just hasn't worked at all. And they're one of the worst possession teams in the league right now. last year they were above average so it's a huge drop-off in that regard and i think john tooterell is a great coach but every coach has a shelf life and he's been there a pretty long time and i think his message may have gotten stale over that period yeah i hate using the you know it feels like

such a cliche or just like a lazy take but you know you have to wonder if maybe the guys have just kind of tuned him out um it looks like a team who who like don just said you know maybe the message is lost now, you know, are they even listening anymore? Because how many times you're going to hear the same thing and not apply it before, you know, whether it's deserved or not, the coach falls on the sword. And typically, we see the coach, you know, fall on that sword when, when teams start to go stale. Again, whether it's deserved or not, so I think, yeah, it's probably getting a little bit hot. One of the questions I wanted to throw at Dom, and maybe you could answer this one too, Ian, I got this for Dom specifically.

Dom, do you think Toronto is good or just playing bad teams or both? And how do you think they compare to teams like Tampa or Colorado? And I think that's a really great question because I think we've seen some of our American colleagues. You know, I know Sarah Sibian made a TikTok about how the Canadian teams are scoring well, but they're not scoring against Tuka. You know, you're not scoring against Tuka-Rask. So maybe you're not actually that good. What do you think about that take?

I think it's hilarious that Tuka got lit up immediately by the New York Islanders, a team that is not a good offensive team. I actually got a message from my editor with this exact same question saying, hey, what do you think about doing a story on where the Leafs stack up to all these other teams and whether they're just feasting on weak opponents? And it's such a difficult question to answer this year because teams only get to play a lot. teams in their own division and you can't really compare. At the same time, I think the current messaging is so overblown because people see the high scoring games and assume that the teams in North are bad when they're just maybe bad defensively. No one talks about how the North is the strongest offensive division.

No one frames it that way. And I think a lot of it is that people refuse to believe we live in a world where the Leafs might be good. And I don't know why, because they have a talented team. They had a strong offseason. They were expected to be good. I had them in the top five. Odds makers had them in the top five. Every single model had them in the top five. It was just people who only think about playoff wins and losses that assume this is a bad team. And while their record might not be this good in another division, I still think they would have been one of the top teams in any division in hockey.

Yeah, I think what's happened with Toronto is they've entered that realm where Tampa was last year, where Washington was a couple of years ago, where it doesn't matter what you do in the regular season. Like from the public perception standpoint, it doesn't matter. You could run the table, go 56 and O, and there'd be a bunch of smug people with like, yeah, well, what are you going to do in the playoffs? That's where they're at right now. That's where Tampa was last year.

Tampa has been good enough to win a cup for about four years. And until they did it, the public was kind of holding them at arm's length. Same with Washington. That's where Toronto is. Toronto has been good enough to win a Stanley Cup, I think, for three years. And I think they're good enough to win a cup this year. And they're probably going to be good enough to win a cup next year. And the only question is, can they get it done?

And it doesn't matter what they do between now and May. I don't think. it's kind of crazy because people like you can see that Tampa's winning their division Boston's winning their division like pretty handily and they don't do the arithmetic in their head to think okay Toronto was the third best team in that division they always had to get through Boston who was one of the best teams of the league maybe it wasn't really Toronto's fault that they kept losing the first round because they always had to play Boston and last year they lost to Columbus and I think that's

when people are like, okay, this team sucks. And that's very understandable because that was the first time that Toronto was actually expected to win. And they blew it hard. They failed hysterically. We all get that. But I think they are in that realm where what happens the weather season doesn't matter and they'll have to actually prove it in the playoffs. But this team looks good enough to prove it this year. So I want to throw one at you, Ian. I'm kind of taking control. over the hailbag. Okay. I'm making the questions today.

The one that I want to throw out you that we got, Josh Norris, an unprotected first round pick, Logan Brown, Eric Brantstrom, for Jack Eichel. Do you say yes or no? So what is that? So Ottawa gets Jack Eichael for what? Josh Norris, Eric Brantz. Logan Brown, an unprotected first,

and unprotected first, and Eric Brantstrom, Josh Norris for Jack Eichael. Yeah, I mean, if we could work Louis Erickson into this deal somehow, yes. But yeah, I'm doing that every day of the week. If I'm Ottawa, every day of the week. For that much? I told you, I'm foolishly big on Jack Eichel. I love the guy. I think Jack Eichel is an elite player.

So yes, I would do that. But that's just a first round pick, your potential second line center. But I'm not losing Stutzla and I'm not losing Brady Kachuk and I'm not losing Jake Sanderson. And I get Jack Eichol. Yeah, sign me up. But you lose your prize possession from the Markstone trade. Now you have nothing.

You have Vitalia Bramoff. No, that's not even the right deal. You have nothing. I got Jack Eichael. Can I raise my hand and speak for a second? Yes. If Buffalo got that package, fire everyone in Buffalo. Because that is a pile of nothing.

You think so? Josh Norris is good. I'll give him that, but he's the second line center right now. Like maybe he has a higher ceiling, but he's not Jack Eichael. Eric Brandstrom has shown extremely little, and I think viewing it in the lens of, oh, this is the prize possession from the Mark Stone trade,

is treating him as a sunk cost fallacy, and if there's any value for him, then you should go for it. A first-round pick is steep, but this is supposed to be a weaker draft, so I don't think it's that bad. I don't think you're going to get a player of Eichael's caliber, and I don't even remember

the fourth asset was. So that's how forgettable that part. Yeah, like, whatever. Who cares about Logan Brown? We're all on very different pages. I think I value, I'm looking at all of that and saying like, that's a lot to give up for one player.

Dom just thinks we're both stupid. And Ian just loves Jack Eichol. So we're all on very different pages. Yeah. Well, you know what? But that's a perfect way to wrap up the show because, Haley, we're going to let Dom. You just said that he thinks that we're both dumb.

We understood that. We've always known that. It's now time for Dom to hand out which one of us was, you know, dumber and dumbest between Haley and I. I promise this is not recency bias. Haley was getting this from the get-go, and that's because before the show started, she could not figure out how to work her AirPods.

And huge revelation for her to realize you can turn Bluetooth off. And then she ends the show by saying, Buffalo should take a package of nothing. That's not what I said. That's not what I said. I just said to Ian, like, that's what you want to give up if you're Ottawa. I just said that's a lot.

Okay? I didn't say it was like the best trade package. I just thought that Ian would say no to that. Ottawa should take it and run. There we go. We'll have to take it and run. This was a lot of fun and we'll do it again in April. Okay, we'll bring it back for an April edition of Dom,

Dumb, and Dumbus. Haley, have yourself a great week. And hey, listen, we'll enjoy the Kachuk bowl when it shifts over to Calgary later this week. I'm embarrassed my performance. See everybody. That's perfect. That's a perfect way to end it. And we just want to thank everybody for listening to the Athletic Hockey Show to please subscribe

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but we really appreciate the feedback because you can tell us what you like and what you don't like. And a reminder, you can get annual subscriptions to the athletic. They're available to you for $3.99 a month when you visit theathletic.com slash hockey show. Scott Burnside, Pierre LeBrun,

they'll be back at it on Wednesday with the two-man advantage edition of the athletic hockey show. I'll be back at it with Down Goes Brown, Sean McKeckon, on Thursday.