The Athletic Hockey Show - Can Canada forgive Gretzky’s silence?

Episode Date: March 6, 2025

On this special edition of The Athletic Hockey Show, Laz is joined by The Athletic’s own Dan Robson to dig deeper into his “Why Canadians are stung by Wayne Gretzky’s silence” piece and discuss Gretzky’s allegiance to US President Donald Trump, his silence after Trump’s calls to make Canada the 51st state, the potential impact on his legacy, and more.Host: Mark LazerusWith: Dan RobsonExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Chris Flannery Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. Hello and welcome to a special edition of The Athletic Hockey Show presented by E-Trade from Morgan Stanley. I'm Mark Lazarus, and I'm joined today by the Athletics Senior Enterprise writer Dan Robson to talk about his essay on Wayne Gretzky in Gretsky's relationship to Donald Trump and his increasingly fraught relationship to his native Canada in the wake of his support for the U.S. president. So if you're one of those stick to hockey people, someone who thinks sports and politics and social issues never have and never will intersect, this. It might not be the podcast for you, or maybe it is the podcast for you. I don't know. Maybe we'll prove that. Dan, what prompted you to sit down and write this essay?

Well, you know, honestly, it just comes from a pretty personal place. I'm Canadian, and I grew up as I write in the story, just, you know, when I was a kid, I mean, Graski was sort of the pinnacle of Canadian pride. I mean, he's this, you know, the greatest hockey player of all time. And I think also one that kind of put Canada on the map in a way. I mean, obviously Canada was always sort of on a map. But, I mean, it was in terms of being like, this is the greatest in the world and had sort of global fame. We looked at him, you know, I'm thinking from my childhood, not sort of from my journalistic space here, but as a childhood coming up as a hockey player and then sort of loving this game as this sort of exceptional idea of what Canadians can be.

And so, you know, I saw the outpouring of, I would describe it as sort of hurt and confusion that has followed the discourse in the last couple of weeks and thought that I think it was. is important to try and right from the perspective of, you know, being on the inside of it outward, trying to explain what this feeling is like within Canada right now. Well, this might seem like a dumb thing to ask on a hockey podcast, but for our American audience in particular, just how big a deal is and was Wayne Gradsky? Like how much did he transcend sports and become something larger like we see with, you know, Michael Jordan, LeBron James, some American athletes? Just how big a deal was what wasn't is Wayne Greske?

Yeah, I think it has a lot to do with when he rose to greatness. I mean, through the 80s, obviously, is when he was smashing records and everyone was paying attention and certainly in the world of hockey. But it was moved to Los Angeles in 1988 and then through the 90s, when we're in the sort of globalized era of media and, you know, celebrity pop culture, I think that's sort of when it kind of reached new level. So, you know, he was in banking commercials and co-com commercials. He was referenced in Hollywood movies. You know, when I was growing up, there was a show called Pop Stars. I think it was Pop Stars. And it was something Stars or All Stars or something like that that had Boe Jackson

and Michael Jordan and Wayne Gretzky in it. So he was sort of in this group of athletes that went beyond the sport they played and became kind of like pop culture references. And so I think that's for us, like when I was sort of thinking of Gretzky in terms of his fame, it's that it wasn't just, you know, hockey is obviously. obviously kind of, still kind of viewed as a niche sport. And it was back then. Obviously, in Canada, it certainly is, and it's e-sport.

But seeing people who, you know, otherwise wouldn't care about hockey, knowing who Wayne Gretzky was, I think that, you know, that actually kind of just signal to, to keep going Canada in particular, that, you know, he sort of made it beyond the border and sort of made it to this level of the stratosphere of celebrity that most don't reach. It's interesting as you talk about in the story, he's as much American now as he is Canadian. He's a naturalized U.S. citizen. He's lived in the States for, you know, the majority of the last, what, 30 something, something years. And he, I've heard this from a few people now, and you mentioned it, too, that he's never picked up his order of Canada medal. Right. So he's one, he's one, he's been, I should clarify. He's won two.

The one won in like 84, was awarded one in 84. Pick that up in 98, I believe. But that's sort of like a, it's sort of a lower level of the order of Canada. And the actual order of Canada, the one that is the highest honor and civilian that civilian can receive was rewarded in 2009. And you go to a ceremony at the Governor General's estate in Ottawa. It's like it's a, it's a very formal important thing. And it's something that, you know, anyone who receives this honor is very proud to receive. But as of yet, he hasn't scheduled his investor share to go and actually receive it.

So I checked with the Governor General's office yesterday. day to make sure this was correct. And that is the case. They still have this. So he has not shown up to receive it yet. So for those who are, God bless you, blissfully unaware of what's been going on, you know, Gretzky has been pretty public with his support of Trump. I believe he was at the inauguration or something around then. You know, he has been, you know, present and vocal with his support of Trump. And he's been receiving a tremendous amount of backlash given Trump's rhetoric towards Canada. He's, you know, depending on how seriously you take him, he's either mocking Canadian sovereignty or outright threatening it with all this 51st state talk, which is

kind of what fueled a lot of the four nations hype. And, you know, we haven't heard from Wayne Gretzky since this backlash started. Donald Trump himself went on, you know, his social media page and basically declared Gretzky a free agent. Like he tried to do Gretzky is solid, but we haven't heard from Gretzky himself. His wife has been on Instagram, but as Gretzky has not either defended his position, you know, entrenched himself or apologize. If you think he needs to apologize, we just haven't heard anything, right? Yeah, it's been silence. And that's kind of what I tried to get into in this piece is like what that silence has

meant because, I mean, so, so, so, Cretzky showed up. He was at the, um, the party at Marlago after, um, Trump won the election and he was at the inauguration and there's photos of him in a mega hat. And that's, to be honest, that that for most Canadians is, is fine. I mean, there's a lot of mega supporters in Canada, a lot of people who are aligned with the visions of Donald Trump's politics. And like, that's kind of beyond the point right now. So I don't think this conversation that I'm having, what I wrote about was because of sort of this. And I think it ends up getting the arguments like, oh, well, you're just making it political.

And I don't think that's the case at all. In Canada right now, as you alluded to, this is a different. There's a tension that has created a sense of national. that is beyond sort of our left and right-wing parties. I mean, we have very similar conversations around our politics to what goes on in the United States. So, but what's happened here is there's sort of a, this is different. I mean, Donald Trump, when he turned his attention to the 51st state, you know, initially it was kind of in a joking way. But as he's continued to speak about it, as our prime minister, Justin Trudeau, is sort of mentioned, you know,

looking at these economic sanctions that have been incredibly punishing the tariffs that they're putting on Canadian goods. I mean, they, they are crippling economically. And there is a sense that, you know, there's more to the rhetoric than just sort of, hey, we're just going to try and insult you by calling you this. And I know that I think in the States, it's fair to say that it's been sort of viewed as sort of like, oh, he's just joking. He says a lot of things.

But I can tell you that's not how it's been received in Canada. It's been taken much more seriously in Canada. I think there's a bit of a disconnect there in that. Canadians feel as a country, I think, backed into a corner here because we know how vulnerable we are. And we're kind of putting up, as it said right now, elbows up right now and to sort of use a hockey phrase. As we saw with Mike Myers on Saturday Live last weekend, you know, wearing his Canada's not for sale t-shirt on air and sort of signaling this sort of like we're ready to fight. That's the mentality right now. And so when with, to answer your question, with Gretzky support being, you know, a supporter or Republican or supporting Donald Trump,

that's fine. But when it crossed sort of a line into a problematic area was when the issue of sovereignty came in and when the insults of Governor Trudeau came in and all of these things that I think, you know, really changed the conversation. And in that silence, there was sort of a statement that was interpreted, whether it was fair or not. There's 12,000 names, more than 12,000 names right now on a petition to rename the street named Dr. Gretzky in Edmonton. which is just insane to even think about considering what he means to a city like Edmonton. So this is not something sort of I've just made up to sort of write a story about how I don't like, you know, the politics here. This is beyond politics.

It's beyond sport and politics. And that's why I think, you know, it's something that I really wanted to write about to try and sort of just create a sense of understanding of why it matters so much to so many Canadians right now. Yeah, I mean, anyone who thinks that there's not a whole. hard right streak through the sport of hockey is diluting themselves. I mean, another Mount Rushmore face, Bobby Orr took out a full page ad in a New Hampshire paper endorsing Trump in 2020. So Greskes hardly alone in the hockey world being a MAGA guy. There's a lot of it, probably more than you think. But yeah, this does seem different. And I guess, you know, it's a very hockey mentality to not speak up, to not speak out, to not get political, right? We

saw, you know, even in the summer of George Floyd in 2020, you know, the NBA, the WMBA, the NFL, Major League Baseball, they were making these big, big, big statements and hockey was trying to kind of like dip its toe in the water of making political statements, but it generally makes hockey players uncomfortable. So like this is, this is new, a demand for a hockey person to make a political statement publicly. We've never really seen this before. The pressure that's being put on Wayne Gretzky is kind of new to the hockey world, isn't it? Well, it's kind of interesting too, because I don't think anybody would be asking Wayne Graskey what he thought had he not being so vocal about his opinions previously.

But he came out with his, with a political statement initially. And then he kind of got caught in the aftermath when all of a sudden the support for Donald Trump sort of became this problematic difficult thing because he turns attention on the country that he's revered as a hero, Gretzky is. And so I think that, you know, we're not asking Mario Lemieux, what do you think? We're not asking Sidney Crosby what he thinks. I mean, the Four Nations tournament happened within the framework of these tensions. The American National Anthem was booed in Montreal.

That is not, I mean, you can argue, you know, because of, you know, there's a rivalry on the ice. That is not why the anthem was booed. And it was not booed because Canadians have any animosity towards Americans anyway. It was a great hockey. Everyone was excited for it to happen. The booing was very clear. Everyone in the arena, everyone who heard it, if they're being honest, knew why the It was happened.

It was because there was a greater tension that was being played out through this arena. And that's why, I mean, that's why you can't escape sports and politics. The interaction is always going to be there. But, you know, the tension was there. The tension was there in the final as well. The tension was there when, you know, I was in TD Garden, when all of the American fans filed out. It was a heated game. It was a fun game.

It wasn't a bad environment. I mean, there was ups and downs in terms of the tension between fans. But at the end, it was Canadian fans inside TD Garden, filling the local. Bowl, Sineo, Canada, there was a cathartic feeling within that place that transcended hockey. It wasn't just about that game. And I talked to some players, and they even admitted it after. They wouldn't admit at the beginning. But hockey, to your point, we don't, these are our comfortable spaces.

It makes for entertaining hockey when the tension is there. But we don't like to talk or the hockey culture doesn't like to discuss, you know, what's actually going on, these bigger picture things. And so it is an uncomfortable place for sure. And it's certainly not a place that I think, you know, when. I mean, Gretzky is used to finding himself in. So what can Gretzky do now? I mean, is it too late to salvage this? If he comes out and makes some kind of, you know, it's not going to be a firm statement,

let's be honest. If he comes out and makes some kind of mealy mouth statement trying to straddle this thing, can he put this fire out? Can he come out and just disavow Trump entirely and will people believe it? It has the fact that he's been silent this long kind of, you know, nullify whatever he does say, what he does say it. Like, is he's in too deep now? But I think there'll be a lot of, you know, disagreements or agreement with sort of what I'm going to say here.

But I think there are, there are certainly people, you know, that are saying, no, like, he can't come back. There are certainly people, though, that I think will say, you know what? Like, I believe that Wayne Gresey means well. We know his character. I mean, he's been in the media enough. He's being around enough as a iconic figure and shown sort of kindness and shown sort of of this connection to fans. Like I've written about this before about how he has his aura about him where fans love

Wayne Gretzky. I mean, fans of all generations, fans who have never seen him play, love Wayne Gretzky. I don't think Canadians like being angry at Wayne Gretzky, to be honest. I think that there is a sense. If he were even just to come out and say, you know what, I'm friends with Donald Trump. I'm a Republican. I believe in Donald Trump's vision for America. But the 51st state stuff is a step too far.

Canada is sovereign. And, you know, I believe that, you know, Canada should be. I don't even think he has to even get into the tariff conversation. I do think, do you think that would go a long way to just pulling back some of the tension. That alone will alleviate some of it. Well, is Wayne Gressie going to be booed in Canada when he returns, you know, down the road? I don't think so. I don't think this is sort of like, we're not tearing down the statue in front of, you know, in Eminton. Gretzky is still Wayne Greske, is still the most iconic hockey player to have ever played. But there is a very real hurt that's

been built up within, I think it's built up sort of in the mythology that we've carried as Canadians thinking he's this great ambassador. And there's been this realization now that, you know, he hasn't been that for some time. As you pointed out, he's American. He's lived in the States for decades. All of his kids and his wife were American. He has homes in the United States. He's every right to have political views. And this is all something that we're sort of coming to terms with. But the bigger picture is, you know, for being this Canadian iconic figure when if you want to say you're a proud Canadian, when the sovereignty of that nation is being challenged when it's being mocked and ridiculed, whatever degree of seriousness you want to

ascribe to it, I do believe it's fair to say, hey, like you aligned yourself with this. Can you clarify? And I think that clarification, just that simple clarification, if that's what he wants to do, would go a long way. Yeah, I think it really does. It underscores just how, here in the States, there are people who just laugh this stuff off. Aha, he's calling him Governor Trudeau. That's hilarious. But I think it does. I mean, Wayne Gretzky had just the most sterling reputation you could have for, you know, the whole family, the Gretzky family.

His dad was Canada's hockey dad, like for decades and decades, half a century, really. And it just kind of underscores how, you know, serious Canada is taking this stuff that Wayne Gretzky could be under fire for this. So I think it's helpful to an American audience. to hear just how personal this is getting up there. And I would think the one thing I tried to touch on in the story that I was writing was just this greater sense of what it's all about because I don't think, as he intended this by any means.

And I do think that he's a kind and well-meaning man. I've had the privilege of speak with him many times. And I don't think he's doing. I think he's making a misstep here. But I don't think he rep, I personally, and I obviously don't have a chance to speak to about this yet because he didn't respond. But I don't believe that he wants. is to feel this way. But I do think there is this underlying thing where there's this

sense of like in Canada, there's this knowledge of like our big neighbor to the south. You know, as I wrote the story, we kind of orbit around it. I mean, we are tied to the I think you called us the larger country. You guys are way bigger than we are. I mean, larger in terms of space, for sure. We've got lots of it. We've got lots of minerals in that space. There's a whole other issue that is. is sort of that play here in this whole annexation conversation that we don't need to get into on this podcast, but is underlying a lot of it. We're very proud of that space and we're very proud of who we are as 40 million people. But there's a sense of, you know, the gravity of

the United States. And in seeing Gretzky being this iconic figure that we viewed as sort of the golden ambassador of Canada and then realizing that all along he was American, sort of like the sense that he was absorbed by America. There is a symbolism in that. And I do think that that also is kind of what's playing into this tension right now. Instead of all the greats, he was the one, and we've lost him. Well, what's really interesting is he can't like let, like, just kind of duck and let this blow over because he's about to be thrust back into the spotlight here. Alex Ovechkin is on the charge. He's 10 goals away from breaking Gretzky's record. And when someone's coming to break your record, you're supposed to be there to like pass the torch, right?

So like Gretzky is going to be thrust back into the spotlight here. If Gavetchkin can get closer by the end of the season. And it almost, you know, it's it and here's Alex Ovechkin, whose Instagram photo is him standing next to Vladimir Putin and hashtag Putin team and all this stuff. And it's just like the the confluence of events that are happening here is just absolutely wild. And, you know, on paper, Ovechkin chasing down Gretzky feels almost like Barry Bonds

under the cloud of steroid use chasing down pristine perfect beloved Hank Aaron, but now Gretzky's got a little bit of a little bit of heat on him. And it's just like, what are these next month and a half going to, what is this going to be like? Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I think like that irony was kind of pointed out of just sort of like, Gradsky was untouchable in so many ways.

And now Ovechkin's coming along to break that record. And then we'll also have this other conversation that we're having right now. I mean, I think the only issue with the comparison is that in the, And both of them in terms of their achievements on the ice are unquestioned and unmatched. So there's no sort of like this this pursuit of Gretzky's goals record is a remarkable event in sports terms, in sports reality and sort of where we are. But as you alluded to, there's also this greater tension over top of it. I mean, there is the reality of Russia's invasion of Ukraine and Olbechkin's very publicized coasiness to a lot. Vladimir Putin, the same time, Wayne Gretzky will be on the ice and all indications that he

will be there and to celebrate Ovesh and breaking his record, you know, is aligned with Donald Trump, who obviously has, you know, a mandated in America right now, but at the same time has turned attention to the country that he grew up in and that he came, that he came from. And so all of this kind of lies, this tension lies over top of this historic moment in the game. And I don't know, the next couple of weeks are going to be very interesting. I mean, obviously, like, if by chance of a vegetable were to break, I have to look at their season, but if we were to break that record in the Canadian arena, that's going to be very interesting to see what happens, Creske being there.

I'm sure everyone's hoping that everyone in the capitals, and I'm sure, aligned, you know, in terms of the NHL, I'm not sure, but would like it to happen in Washington, where maybe it's a more neutral crowd in terms of this conversation, this greater conversation that we were having. So, yeah, it's going to be very interesting, though, but like, there's no way to avoid the spot. But that's the thing. There is no way to avoid the spotlight if you're Wayne Gretzky. I mean, he's not the kind of star who has avoided the spot late before. He's just never had this kind of spolid on him.

It's going to be a rough few weeks for the stick to hockey shut up and dribble crowd. Because it feels like the hockey world really doesn't want to reckon with where Ovechkin is and what it means for him and then with Gretzky and boy, these are interesting times in the NHL. Dan, I want to encourage everyone to go read your essay. It's on The Athletic. Always read Dan. He's as good as it gets. And stay tuned.

We're going to have just regular old trade deadline coverage. We're going to stick to hockey, guys.