The Athletic Hockey Show - Can John Tortorella spark the Golden Knights? - With Chris Pronger

Episode Date: March 30, 2026

The cutthroat Vegas Golden Knights fired Stanley Cup Champion Bruce Cassidy with eight games remaining in the regular season, replacing him with John Tortorella in an effort to spark the slumping team. Hall of Famer Chris Pronger joins Max Bultman and Sean Gentille to discuss Vegas' gamble, the plethora of capable defensemen in line for a Norris Trophy nomination, the suddenly red hot Philadelphia Flyers and his new book, 'Earned' which comes out on April 14th.Host: Max Bultman and Sean GentilleWith: Chris ProngerExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Jeff DometWatch full episodes on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowJoin our Discord Server: https://discord.gg/VTm9VjkFSubscribe to The Athletic: https://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. Hey, everybody, Max Baldwin here alongside Sean Jantilly for another episode of The Athletic Hockey Show. We have a ton to get to today, Sean. Chris Pronger is going to join us a little bit later on to talk about one of the most interesting Norris races we've had in a long time. Although I feel like they've all been pretty interesting lately. Like, it's a real fun era of NHL defensemen. But I think a lot of good conversations to be had around this year's race in particular. We got the Philadelphia Flyers heating up.

are all of a sudden right into the thick of this Eastern Conference playoff race that needed some spice, Sean. They needed a little bit more flavor in that. But first, we got to start with the Vegas Golden Knights because they made a coaching change with what, eight games left in their season here, Bruce Cassidy out, John Tortorella in. We've talked about the crisis that is Vegas. They are not playing around trying to solve it. Wait a second. I'm here with the prospect boy, the prospect boy himself, Max Boltman. I really thought we were going to talk. about, you know, the Islanders pool or something. Like, I know, I know Wheeler released.

We could do that in segment three. Sweet. I know a lot about all those guys. Big Kish on Atchison guy. As you should be. 20 days left in the season. I think that's, I think that resonated almost as more with me than the eight game number. Like, we got 20 days left in this in Vegas, has pulled the plug, right?

Like, it's not, it's not a surprise. we know how they do business. This is a team just generally that elevates winning or the thought of winning or the potential for winning over virtually everything else. But to see it borne out in such a big way, in such an obvious way, in such a dramatic way where it's not just the guy that they fired,

it's the guy that they brought in is pretty wild. And I think the reaction to that yesterday when it dropped this kind of testament to it. Like people, it's incredible to me that after all we've seen from Vegas, after all we've seen from the way they operate in the bloodlessness that they have in their process, it's amazing to me that they managed to surprise us. And I think that was my big takeaway yesterday is that this was a shocking move from a team that's conditioned us to expect shocking moves,

but they still found a way to outdo themselves for good or for ill. And that is wild. Yeah, it absolutely is. And you're right. It's the candidate that is as relevant here as the timing. The timing is more rare. There has been more times someone has fired their coach for John Tortorella than there have been their team is fired their coach in the last three weeks of the season.

But the combination of the two tells me that they are taking seriously what this recent skid has been. They feel like their players need a jarring shakeup here. Bruce Cassidy won him a Stanley Cup, Sean. Like you don't make a decision like this lightly. You don't make this unless you feel you absolutely have to. And you certainly don't make it for John Trotorella, who is a complete locker room changer. Even from Bruce Cassie,

I think is a demanding coach. John Tortorella is obviously like the gold standard of getting your players attention. Yeah, he's going to come in in a demand that Aiden Hill makes a save. That's going to be the torts effect. He just shakes Aiden Hill until he says, okay, I'm going to be a good goalie now.

Because that's, I'm of two minds on this, honestly. There's there's two schools of thought. One is you look at Vegas, you look at their stats, you look at how good they've, so they're five, they're five, ten, and two since the Olympic break. That stinks, right? It won nine to thirty-six against teams in playoff position this season. That's from Jesse's, you know, post-mortem column. So that's obviously not good enough. 389 points percentage against playoff teams is, is kind of wild. But

in that stretch, in that stretch of, you know, five wins and 17 games since the Olympic break. Here's also some stats. They're fourth and expected goal share with 60%. That's behind Carolina, Colorado, and Ottawa. They're 11th in shots for, and tied for the second few of shots against, only Colorado's ahead of them. So they're, which puts them third in shot share overall. This is a team that has won the run of play at five on five decisively, and this is, and they've still had a good power play, and they've still had a good penalty kill. Sixty-six goalies have played a game since the all-star break.

Aiden Hill is ahead of Brandon Bussie who's completely falling apart in, in Carolina. Nikita Tolapila,

who's, you know, Vancouver's fall guy at this point. Yep. Sam Montemboe who's played two

games and Tris and Jari and save percentage with 862. Aiden Hill, 862, save percentage from the, from the Olympic break on.

So, you know, I get it, I get a lot of, I get a lot of the argument. I get what guys like Jesse and Ken Bolke from Sinbin, you know, the Golden Knights blogger saying, which is, you know, Vegas's system demands that they have crease clearing defensemen and they don't have enough guys on the roster.

All that makes sense. I get that there is a systematic issue here. But if you're getting that kind of play from Aden Hill, especially in a torterella system that is not meaningfully different than Cassidy's, I think you're in for a bad time. Like he could flip the switch. This is a guy who's been good before, certainly. But let's not lose sight of why we're here. It's because he wasn't good enough. If he's an 895 goal tender, they're in a completely different situation.

Bruce Cassidy still has a job. They're turning some of those solid five-on-five numbers into actual wins. And it's not the way it's played out. And that's why we're looking at the situation that we're looking at right now. And it is not just since the All-Star break. I mean, you can do this for the full season. They're a top five, expect a goal share team. five on five for the season. They are dead last in five on five save percentage this year. It's,

it's the story of their year. It's, it's been most dramatic, uh, since the Olympic break. And I think that's, and we can, we can, you know, Max, we can, we can explain some of that. We can give Aden Hill a break to some extent. Alex Petrangelo isn't there. And Zach Whiteclout isn't there. And these crease clearing, you know, more physical guys that push the shooters out of the slot into the inside, you know, and decrease the traffic. And, in, you know, front of Hill, they're not around. Fair. Like, that counts for something. It doesn't account for everything. Like, you can't explain away eight, six, two, or whatever, whatever Hill's been at since the since the Olympic break. One of the first thoughts I had is that we've seen in the, really for several

years now, but especially in the last couple years, some really dramatic new coach bumps. We saw it in Columbus for a really strong, what was it, seven, eight week span with Rick Bonas. It's starting to come back down to earth now, but you see it over and over again. You get that new coach and you get some new energy. You get a nice little run of play here. One of the thoughts I had is, is Vegas being so bold here that they're going to try and capture that right as they go into the playoffs? If you ride that new coach bump now and you get seven, eight weeks, that's taking to the conference finals off of that at that point. Yeah, completely. And they do need to win, you know, let's say. They got to get in still. Yeah, right. What plays in their favor is that they have one of the

easiest schedules in the league. They're playing Colorado, basically. Like, they have one game against the abs. That's their difficult game. They see the Canucks a couple of times. Crackin are a little hot. They get them twice. I can't. I can't take the crackings here. I'm sorry. Um, and again, like, I don't mean to discount the stuff that, that Jesse says, because those are, those are valid, completely valid points. And Jesse isn't in, in his defense, he's not, you know, blaming everything on, on, on, on the roster construction either. Like, he's blaming, Aiden Hill a bit too. But I think we just need to be careful. I think we need to be careful in framing this is like this is some crazy move by Vegas. I can, I can see it. I can see the logic.

And at the same time, you're like, I don't know if this is going to work because ultimately the goalie has to play better. And Tororella for all he brings the table, are you going to scream at Aden Hill until he turns into, you know, the, the 2023 version of himself? I don't, I don't know that I necessarily see that happening. No, but my guess is he will find a way to motivate the group in front of him to be like, hey, this is your goal. This is your teammate. You got to pick him up.

I mean, there are some non-negotiables with John Tortorella. Effort is certainly a big one. But I also think being a part of a team and sticking up for your guys, that's a big part of it too. So, I mean, I'm talking a little bit out of school. I've never covered him directly. I'm just kind of speaking from what I can kind of recall out of the back of my mind and how I've seen him talk in the past publicly. But that's my impression of John Tortorella, and I would be very surprised if that's not a big part of his message.

Yeah, and you're banking on him reaching those guys in a way that Bruce Cassidy has it. And that's, you know, that's reasonable. That's a reasonable expectation, you know, but Bruce Cassidy pretty demanding too. And if these guys aren't listening to him, you know, it's, it's fair to wonder why they would listen to Tortorillo. Are they physically capable of it? Like, is that just not something? Like, is he asking them to, you know, pick up clubs that they don't have in the bag in something? Like is Rasmus Anderson getting all of a sudden, you know,

do an Alex Petrangelo impression, like, passively? I don't know. But the fun part is finding out. And I think that's, I think that's why I like this. And I like all credit to Bruce Cassidy. He's going to be unemployed for as long as he wants to be. He'll be coaching. Some team might fire their coach to hire Bruce Cassidy in the next 48 hours.

Who knows? So, you know, no knock on him. But I like this move because that's kind of what it represents. Like, it is chaotic. it is crazy. And I'm interested in seeing what happens over the next 20 days in eight games. That's why we do this. It's why we pay attention to the league is for stretches like this that, you know,

that Vegas for good or bad has given us right now. First question at the press conference. How do you feel about pillow fights? The Pacific Division is, how quickly did we reach like saturation point on describing it that way? Yeah. Me and Dom, me and Dom did, did Power. rings on Thursday and he used Pacific Division pillow fight three separate times. So I had to go through and like, you know, find and replace and delete it. Like, we get it. We get it, buddy. You don't have to,

you don't have to. Well, it's just, it's such a good phrase. I mean, it's a new one for me too, right? I hadn't heard it before. And I just, yeah, it stuck for me. The reason the Pacific Division is a pillow fight is because of the Vegas Golden Knights. The Edmonton Oilers are generally who they thought we, who we thought they'd be. Anaheim's out kicked their coverage. Seattle's mediocre. L.A.'s mediocre. we knew that was coming in, we thought Vegas was a legit Stanley Cup contender and they haven't been. So if you want to look at this, you know, skies falling, Pacific Division sucks, it's the worst of the current playoff era, like all true. But the reason that is true is because Vegas hasn't been good enough. So we can blame them for that too. Like all of a sudden, like,

imagine this. There's a magical world where John Tortoralla comes in, Vegas snaps into position, all of a sudden they look like the team we thought they'd be. And then boom, you got Vegas versus Edmonton, you know, playoff Edmonton in May or whatever. That's very, very possible. Part of the reason it's gotten as much attention as it has, too, is because of how opposite the Pacific is from what's happening in the East. And people are focused on what the bar is in the Pacific because there's a bunch of frustrated fan bases in the Atlantic and in the Metro that are like, is my team going to miss the playoffs at 97 points? There will be 97 point teams that missed the playoffs. That would be first in NHL history, but there are a bunch of teams now.

I mean, you have three teams tied for essentially the ninth spot in the east, Ottawa, Detroit, and now one of the hottest teams of the last couple weeks, the Philadelphia Flyers. I watched them in Detroit this weekend. This was a must-win game for the Red Wings. They had a ton of momentum coming in. They had put a three-goal win on Buffalo in Buffalo the night before. They came out and the Flyers just stifled them. Flyers defense was suffocating for 55 minutes.

They pretty much knew they had it in the last five, let the Red Wings back into the game for a minute, and then they tack on the empty netter and seal it. This is not a roster that I look at, Sean, and I see a playoff team, but there are a lot of winning kind of players on it, and they have something going for them right now. They're playing hard.

They're keeping guys to the perimeter, and they're playing opportunistic, and that's a dangerous combination. It's Rick Talk at Hockey, baby. They're 12, 4-1 since the break the Flyers are. We'll talk about their last. 10 in a second here. But since the break, they're 12-4-1.

They're top two in goals, in both goals against per 60 and expected goals against per 60. And they're getting a 936 say percentage between Samerson. And it's both guys. It's not one guy. It's both. So they've generally been playing suffocating defensive hockey going back to the end of February, which changed for them over the last 10, and over the last 10 games in which they're 8-1 and 1.

and that's really what's pushed them kind of combined with some foot shuffling from Columbus and Pittsburgh and the Islanders. That's what's pushed them back into the discussion primarily. What's changed for them in the last 10 games is that they're starting to get offense now. They've got at least three goals and seven of their last 10. That qualifies as good for them given where they've been at various points in the last few months. You know, Noah Kates and Owen Tippett and Mishkov is seven points in his last 10. those guys are starting to wake up too so we're seeing the suffocating defense from from target absolutely but what we're getting now is continue to lead goal tending from from both of their guys primarily

urs and at least on at least on on sunday night and you know real production from the guys that they need to produce so now they're in a position where they have the seventh easiest schedule based on points percentage moving forward um and They only need to jump two teams. Like the two teams ahead of them are the Islanders and the Blue Jackets and the Bruins, basically. You jump two of those, like you're good to go. And they're playing in a way. And they also have a big boy on the way, which I'll leave you to discuss, Max, that has momentum squarely, squarely in their favor.

Well, it's also, you talk about the schedule. They have some more head to heads with the teams that they're going against. They're going to see Detroit twice more. They're going to see Boston again. They're going to see the Islanders again. And they control a lot of this just with the outcomes of their own games. I don't know if Porter Martone is going to be like a colossal factor in this race. Like we saw it with Ryan Leonard last year for the Capitals.

Like there's all this excitement about him. But it still takes some time for most guys. You have to be a pretty big exception to be, especially to jump right into the playoff hockey. But Porter Martone's very talented. He brings them like kind of a flash element that I think they could use a little bit more of. It's not going to be speedy flash, but he's going to make some very smart, very skilled plays. And you got Owen Tippett for the speedy flash, Sean. Owen Tippett looked amazing.

I mean, I know this is, I saw his hat trick game. It's not like he's popping hat tricks every night. But he looked outstanding. And the way that this guy can fly, the way that he can shoot, I'm almost amazed that he hasn't had a 30 goal season yet. I think he's going to get there this year. Can you go back to yesterday, too? They beat Dallas 2-1.

Order more tones in the building, signed his contract. We had one of the great, it was like a great old school hockey Twitter moment where you see all the beat guys, Curr is included. All those guys who are watching the game in person are taking the world's worst cell phone shots of Porter Martone in the box. It was like everybody realized at the same time like,

oh, oh, wow, he's over there. I need a photo. I have an iPhone 8. Like, it's time to tweet it out. That's like old school, like 2011 Twitter stuff there. Shout out to Broad Street Hockey, one of the OG Flyers blogs, who compiled all of the shots from,

from, you know, our buddy Kurz and a bunch of other dudes from the box who were taking grainy, big foot caliber photographs of Porter Martone, like standing behind, you know, chairs in a luxury box. Like that's, again, it goes back to what we said about Vegas making this change. That's what makes the sport fun is chaotic days like that, right?

So if we look back on this and if the flyers go in the tank and, you know, whatever. So it goes. But yesterday was fun enough because of the result and because of the Porto Martone stuff to make it pretty memorable and pretty fun. Yeah, absolutely. Have you ever read the SB Nation ranking of all the different Lids stores at the Mall of America? SB Nation, when they were clicking at their highest level, is one of the great sites on the internet. That's what you just said about the Martone shots reminded me.

It's like, who took the best creeper photo of Martone in the box? Just total, total high, it's high quality hockey blogging, baby. That's, that's what we live for. I love it. All right, let's take a quick break right there. We'll come back with a prominent Philadelphia Flyer alumni, Chris Prok. All right, we are back and we are joined now by a Hall of Famer, a Stanley Cup champion, a Norris trophy winner.

We'll talk about that in a little bit. It's Chris Prong, or he's going to be on Prime Monday Night Hockey tonight, Calgary and Colorado, so you can catch him there. Chris, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Our pleasure.

We're going to talk about the Norris in a little bit, but just off the top, we spent a little bit of time in segment one talking about the Vegas news. John Tortorella coming in. Why, what happened? He was on a flight. You missed it. Have you ever seen? The world exploded there for a second.

Have you ever seen a coaching change this late into a season? Sean was saying 20 days left in the season. I don't know if I've. You know, obviously, I remember the Larry Robinson one with Robbie Petalric in New Jersey. Lou obviously stepping in behind the bits funny, both in both of Lou Lebrello. Lou stepping in behind the bench when he fired Claude Julian with the Devils again. But it's, you know, it's interesting. I, you know, knowing the landscape in Vegas and how ruthless they can be at times and how.

You know, Bill Foley, the owner, is all about winning. And George McPhee and Kelly McCrimmon, they take their piece and cues from him. And they're going to do whatever it takes to try to win, try to get as far in the playoffs, try to win a Stanley Cup, try to win another championship. And to them, it's all about what gives them the best chance to have success. There's obviously, from a team perspective, we've seen what they've done in rolling over the roster, trading and getting rid of a very high profile and well-liked players from that team. And they can be very ruthless.

And I think when you go into that situation as a player, I think if you understand that, and you're in that win now mode as well, and you just want to have success, you want to try to win championships, you can appreciate that. But at some point, you too will also be on the chopping block. and you have to understand that. Chris, the stuff that Vegas has struggled with, I think, over the course of the season has been goaltending to a very real extent. And then also losing someone like Alex Petrangelo, losing those elements that they have

on the defense that forces guys to the outside, right? So there's a lot of chaos in front of the goaltender. It's certainly something that Cassidy's, you know, has, that's why, that's why part of what makes Bruce Cassie a Stanley Cup winner is that his system is supposed to, you know, force a lot of stuff to the outside. That's not the way they've played so far. Is that something you can learn on the fly? Like, is that something towards, is that a, is that a will over skill thing that torts can just come in and beat into those guys over the next 20 days? Or is that just like a fundamental thing that, you know, we're too far down the road to change? Well, secondly, if you're

going to do that, you have to practice. And these guys do not practice. So whether it's Bruce Cassidy, John Tortorella, whomever, you're going into this situation knowing you're going to have very little practice time. You're not going to implement much change or change to the structure or style or systems of play. So in that regard, you know, it's just a new voice. It's can he push the right buttons and get them to play at a higher level in a short period of time? At the end of the day, that's all this is. He's not going to be able to change or institute much in 20 days. And frankly, they got to make the playoffs. Yeah, absolutely.

Like, I guess the question is, like, can he coach Bruce Cassidy's system better than Bruce Cassidy did? Well, I'm good to assume that's why they hired them. Yeah. But, you know, I think at the end of the day, the pressure is on Kelly McCrimand and George McB to win, they have to do something to appease the owner that they are trying to win. I'm sure I would imagine they kicked some tires on other opportunities at the trade deadline and it just didn't work out or they felt it was too rich or they just couldn't make it work

that make the money work. You know, and I think this new rule for the playoffs with respect to the salary cap and all that, I think that threw a wrench in probably some of their plans in how they operated and how they were going to be able to fix some of their holes. I think maybe in the beginning they thought they could fix some holes at the deadline and kind of get through most of the season

and then try to fix something at the deadline and then kind of see what happens. Shuffle some pieces around the board. But with that change to the playoff rule, if you will, that I think has thrown a number of teams into the abyss a little bit as to not

knowing or wondering what they can and can't do and if they can make it work. Yeah. All right. want to go to the Norris here because I think it's it's going to be the hardest ballot I fill out this year it's this race is incredible we're in a kind of golden age of of exciting offensive defensemen kail McCar Quinn Hughes lane hudson evan bushard I also think the story for a lot of this year has been just how good the actual true two way guys have been more at sighter jakes sanderson

mirro hayskine and as always this is a crowded field j jay j mozers kind of at the fringes of that conversation too for those two way guys I wanted to get your opinion as a guy who's won this award Chris how would you go about sorting through guy like Zach Wrenski, who may be at the very top of that list, sorting through all this field. Yeah, I think this becomes the question for those that vote on it is, are they paying attention to those that know how to defend, that know actually how to play defense? It's part of the reason we're talking.

It's part of the reason we're talking to you right now, actually. Yeah. And our good at transitioning. Just tell us who to vote for. Getting stops quickly, knowing how to defend and get stops quickly and then transition and then get on the attack and then provide that offense that seemingly all media love to look at and see from a statistical standpoint. But, you know, I got my list here. You've got Kail McCarar, as you said, Evan Bouchard, Zach Wrenski, who I think is near, at or near the top. You didn't

mention Rasmus Dahlene. That's right. I would have. I know how much you like Rasmus Dahlane. By the way, when we talk about defending and how much. every single night. Rasmus Dahlin pisses people up. That means he is defending hard. That means he's a hard player to play against. And to have that skill and, you know, I've heard people talk,

well, he turns a puck over. Every one of these guys turns a puck over. Absolutely. When you have the puck on your stick all the time and you're trying to make plays and you're creative, you're going to make turn, you're going to turn the puck over.

You're going to create mistakes. You know, Eric Carlson is a three-time Norris trophy winner. You telling me he doesn't make mistakes? You know, and so from Kail McCar, every time Kail McCar makes his mistake, it's like, oh, well, what about Evan Bouchard? And what about this guy? Evan Bouchard's a guy that should be near the top of this list. When you look at his, not only his offensive statistics, but from a defensive metric standpoint, there's obviously the eye test and sometimes he doesn't look interested defensively. And frankly, yes, it annoys me too, because that seems to be the biggest issue in Edmonton is how they defend and really their competitive nature when they get into the defensive zone and their mindset.

And as their best defenseman, he is the lead dog in that respect and that everybody on that back end is following this guy. And so from that perspective, I think he has to understand that. Number one, he's their highest paid defenseman. Number two, he's their best defenseman. And now number three, like everybody is looking at him. he's the guy. So you have to, you have to

really be diligent and competitive and dig in defensively to show your teammates, to show the rest of the decor, this is how we need to play to defend. And a lot of times, because he plays so much,

it looks like he kind of rests on defense. And he's not, he's still able to, you know, get stops and get turnovers. But it looks sloppy. And it looks like he's not trying as hard in the defensive zone and on the back end. And so that, I think, can frustrate people when they're doing the eye test and they're looking at all the stuff. And there is a bias towards him because they've seen the early parts of the year where he struggled and was disinterested and turned pucks over.

And oh, by the way, he's been to back-to-back cups. It's probably a little tired and thinking that, okay, we're going to turn it on halfway through the year and things. that nature. So when we're looking at this award, people just remember those mistakes. Yes, it made those mistakes in a long time. That's what I wanted, I wanted to ask about that specifically because the big mistake is something that it sticks with people, whether we're talking about Bouchard or McCar or Carlson. Dalene, absolutely. Hudson. Yeah. By the way, Matthew Schaefer makes mistakes too. Yep. And I think people, because of the the hoopla surrounding him and how incredible a season he's had, people kind of bypassed it.

He makes mistakes, do we all make them? Like, we're not perfect. You know, and I think that Bouchard has this stigma around him that he's got to be perfect. And not one single player on here and no player in the history of this sport, especially on defense, is perfect. We all make mistakes. We all get walked. We all, it happens. especially when you're playing 27 minutes a game in all situations.

When you're playing 20 minutes a night, mistakes happen for a myriad of reasons. Are there any players this year who pushed their way into discussion for you that maybe weren't there last season? Like when you look at the guys, maybe not even necessarily Norris candidates, but guys who you look at is true number one defensemen, like top 10 or top 15. Is there a name there for you now that wasn't there in October? I don't think that wasn't there. I think they were on the fringe. You know, like Mo Sider, it's kind of dropped off a little bit.

They ask him to do an awful lot. He plays a lot of hard minutes. He's got to play with a physical edge. He's got to defend hard. You know, those two-way guys that play hard defensively, it can grind on you. And the season is long and it can wear you down. And so for the offensive guys that maybe don't

compete as hard defensively or make it look easier and don't play with a physical edge, they're fresher. You know, and it can, by the way, it's been there, done that. Yeah, I think you know what you're talking about. I know how the long grind of a season playing 25, 30 minutes tonight. I know how that can affect your play. And so, you know, you'll see these dips a little bit. But, you know, a guy who, I got, the one guy who probably is on the radar that,

shockingly is Eric Carlson. I've gotten to see him play live a couple times here the last month, month and a half. And his game, from a defensive standpoint, has improved dramatically. Whatever Dan Mews has got him buying into is working because he looks great and the offensive instincts

and his prowess with the puck and his creativity, his ability to, you know, great hits, seam patterns. and stretch passes and send guys in on breakaways and then how deceptive he is at the blue line and things that nature. He's, you know, he's probably lost a step with respect to where he was five, six, seven years ago. But he's still elite with the puck and certainly how he's playing the game right now. So he would, you know, he's not going to win it, but he's certainly in the, you know, he's in the top 10 this year, I think, with how he's played and how he's performed. You know, I think you got Mosider, Lane Hudson again.

He's pushing to try to get into the top five. I think if you're looking at the top five, you've got Makar, Bouchard, Wrenski, Hughes. And my fifth guy would probably be Dahlene with what he is done with Buffalo. And, you know, listen, there are warts on everybody. Everybody's going to look and you're going to be like, oh, but he turns a puck over, or he does this or he does that. We could pick everyone, from the outside looking in, we could pick everyone of these players apart and look at certain games or certain situations and, you know, what have you. But from a body of work from start to finish, I think those five are the top five.

You know, Jake Sanderson getting hurt, I think hurt him. He would be in the top 10, I think. You know, Sider, Carlson, Hudson, Schaefer, you know, those are kind of the guys that I would look at. every time I watch Miro, he's going to, he leaves me wanting more offensively. He's such a good defender. And he's so,

albeit last night on the game winning goal, not so much. But he's an elite defender, elite skater. And the way he transitions the puck, how easy he makes that outlet pass. And, you know, it's just from the blue line in,

offensively, he just leaves me wanting more compared to the other guys. You know, when you start trying to break it down and look at the comparison of what does McCar do, what does Bouchard do, what does Werencki do, what does Hues do, Dahlene, Schaefer, you start going down, Carlson, you start going down that list, Hudson, you know, comparable for him is probably Mo Sider from an offensive perspective. And, you know, he needs, for him to be able to be in the conversation, he's got to be elite like these other guys offensively. I want to ask about Donnellian specifically, too,

because I know you've been a huge fan of his in the past. We're seeing better play from Mattia Samuelson, I think, on his side, and that's something that he certainly hasn't gotten over the last couple years. So I'm just wondering if that's, you know, when does he, how much does that matter that he looks better by comparison because he's playing with a guy who looks like he has a clue relative

to where he was in the last couple seasons? But that is huge. I think number one, that's how he gets into this conversation. He's not having to clean up the mess on aisle two. He's doing his job. Natius has had an excellent year. He's doing his job and supplementing and helping Dahlene. So Dahlene doesn't have to do everything on the ice.

And I think at times when he was, that was posing a problem. And really, you know, he was really turning the puck over trying. you do too much, trying to do the work of two defensive back there when Samuelson was struggling last year. I think having a steady big physical, mobile defenseman beside him

allows him to free up and kind of do what he does best. And in that regard, I think that's where I think why we're seeing the type of year we've had out of Daleks, I think the Buffalo Sabres period, when you look at Samuelson, you look at Byrum and Power and Kesselring, and now you bring in these other

guys, you know, I think they're now slotting in appropriately and the end. They've now gotten the experience and they're understanding the game within the game and how to how to play the game up in a manner with which they can win hockey games and close games and learn how to close out games and learn how to defend and protect the middle and all the rest of stuff. We hear all the time from the pundits. But, you know, it's so important to defend in and around, you know, five feet in and around your net. at latent games and pushing people away from your goaltender so that they can cover either loose rebounds or see see pox through bodies and whatnot. I think what's really interesting about Dahlene

too. He's always been a competitive player, but I think people are taking more notice. And maybe it's because guys are responding to it on the ice. Like he's taken big wax from Malc and he's taking punches from Brandon Hagel. They're clearly upset with him. I think more edge is showing in Dahlene's game now than I remember seeing the first three, four years of his career. Yeah, I think, well, it's a process. And he's gaining more comfort in how he plays the game, how he leads. I think he's got more support from a leadership perspective on that team

as these young players have now gained more experience in the NHL and they're coming into their own and they're starting to really figure out their games. So in that respect, it's not only a load off his shoulders, but he can now be free to play with that grit and jam that he does have. And as you said, pisses off a lot of top end players.

And when you're able to defend like that and hard and get under the skin of your opponent, it really opens up a lot of things for you offensively because they're aware of where you are and they're trying to get you and it gets them off their game. And they're not focused on creating offense and playing their games to the best their abilities.

They're focusing on you. I wanted to ask about Zach Goranski specifically too. He's a guy who last year, you know, it seemed like it might have been a little bit of an outlier from a production standpoint, but he's followed it up in a big way. He's actually at a higher point per game rate this season than last. What have you seen from him, you know, in terms of his growth and where do you rate him in the big, in a larger scheme of things? His game has gone to that next level. I've seen him live earlier in the year and seen him live now later in the year. and seen him live now later in the air,

and nothing has changed. He's very consistent. The game looks like it's coming to him very easily, both from a defensive standpoint, and then when he gets the puck, he's baiting guys to go into situations. Then he just pokes the puck free, picks it up, transition, gets on the attack.

You know, I think he's a better skater than maybe people realize. He's very smooth. You know, he's not a burn. like a Quinn Hughes or a Cail McCar, but he's a very good skater. And I think he sits back, almost in he sits back in the rocking chair and how he defends, but he's very mobile and agile in how he does it, almost like he's floating, kind of a little bit like Scotty Niedimer, how he floated on his skates and was very smooth. And so, you know, his understanding of the game, his competitive level for the game,

and then his brain and his hockey sense is, you know, Norris caliber worthy. And so, again, he's going to be in the conversation. And sometimes, you know, other players just have better seasons with respect to their team and their rosters. And, you know, I think that's where people might look at. You could look at Wrensky and be like he should be in the MVP conversation with what he provides every single night. and his consistency and its level of detail every single night. You don't see these swings in his game. He's very consistent in how he shows up and how he performs each and every night.

And that, I think, if you're a young kid at home watching somebody, you watch how consistent he is each and every night. And the ease with which he makes his breakouts and his transition game look, and then how he defends and just baits guys into different areas of the ice that maybe they don't want to go, but they don't realize they're being pushed in that direction. Next thing you know, boom, poke check, or he finishes his check,

and the next thing you know, the puck's out of the zone, and they're going the other way. So you gave us your five. What was the order on that again? Was that not in order? I didn't give him to an order. I get him in order as they're on the paper here.

I'll give you a different order. Dalline, Werencki, Bouchard, McCar, and Hughes. Those are the five that I think are, above the other ones. But, you know, coming up quickly behind our Hudson, Schaefer, I think Carlson will get some votes with the year he's had. You know, I think Sider will get some votes. I think is, you know, they've struggled a little bit.

And I think because, you know, he may be getting a little tired, you know, just a little drop off in his game, you know, as we talked about earlier. And so those would be kind of the nine guys. And Jake Sanderson getting hurt, I think he falls off the list, unfortunately. Yeah, that's tough. So that's the hard part about when you get hurt. You know, you have to play the full season to be up for these awards.

But he's certainly, he's in the conversation. He's elite in how he plays the game, the way he moves on the ice and what he does for Ottawa, night in, night out. Those 10 right now. And there's other guys that, you know, are in the conversation, but they're not. in that conversation. So is Dahlian at the top of the ballot? Is Rasmus Dahlian and Chris Brongers' Norris vote here?

I don't know. I haven't. There's still a lot of games left to be played. True. And 10, 11 games for some teams, 8 to 10 games, I think. So, I don't know. 11 games in 20 days or whatever for some of the scene is. Yeah, there's a lot of, there's a, we're a sprint to the finish.

I haven't even put these guys in, you know, or I just have my top five. and I haven't really broken down parts of the game. The problem is, in my opinion, all five of those guys are clumped together. They're like, they're not like this. They're like this. It really all depends on the different facets of the game that you like better than others. You know, where do you put defending? Where do you put goal scoring?

Where do you put team success? And some of that, it's out of your control. You can have the best year ever, but if your team's not great, but your play wills your team into the playoffs and wills your team to some success, how do you quantify that? Well, that to me is what puts who you play with. Like Werenzky, he doesn't get to play with Nate McKinnon. He doesn't get to play with Connor McDavid.

They've got good players, but they don't have elite. MVP caliber plays. Columbus. You know, so that's where you got to look at Wrenz. You go, wow. When you watch a Columbus Blue, if you just watch a Columbus game and you just have your ISO cam on him all night and just watch him, how he moves around the ice, what he provides to them night in, night out,

it's hard to beat that. You know, he doesn't have the wow you factor of, say, a Macar or a Hughes or, you know, Dahlene with his edgework. Bouchard is probably the little more of the meat and potatoes. He's not flashy in the sense of how he's skating, but his in-zone, you know, from the blue line in, the patience that he shows and his playmaking ability and then, you know, goal-scoring ability, you know.

He's got 11 more points than second place, Bouchard does. Yeah. Production matters. In that regard, if we're going to go out points, then he's your winner. So, you know, as it has in the past, that seems to be the criteria for voting these days. Well, but that's where Werensky kind of threads the needle. Those points. Well, that's it.

But nobody looks at strength of roster. Yeah. Have you seen that metric? No. Dom has quality of teammates. Yeah. Quality of teammates that you play with. Yes.

And who quantifies that? And how do you look at that? And how do you break it down? Other than the eye test of, oh, well, he gets to play with Conrad David. Or he gets to play with Nate McKinnon. And if you're Quinn Hughes, well, or if you're Quinn Hughes, you get to play with Caprisov and, like, all these. How do you quantify that? And so I think that has to play a factor a little bit.

And then, you know, you look at points. You look at how you defend. And by the way, as much as Evan Bouchard gets worked by everybody, if you look at his actual analytics and the metrics, they're as good or better than these other guys. And expected goal share, Bouchard, he's 18th overall in guys who played a thousand minutes. And he's ahead of McCar and Werenski in Hayskin and Dullin.

I don't know. I'm not saying I'm going to vote for Evan Bouchard, but like if that's something that people are looking or thinking, or thinking about and disqualifying him based on, you know, on that. It's he's, he passes the threshold. Yeah. When you look at the actual, if you look at A, the I test, B, his statistics and then C, you look at the data and the metrics that people track and then create your own metrics,

like I just talked about. He's at or near the very top of the list. Yep. Chris, you're a competitive guy. I know your brother has authored a book. What is the bar for Earned, your new book that's coming out? I believe the release out on that is April the 14th for Earned? There it is.

There it is. What's the bar to pass Sean? April 14th. What do you have to do to pass your brother in sales? That's, it's a high bar. It's a high bar. We need everybody to go out and purchase Earned off of Amazon.com or go to my website, Chris Bronger.com, slash book.

and there's a bunch of book packages and some cool giveaways that we have for people that buy the book. They buy the book on your site? They buy the book on your website? No, you buy it on Amazon. If you buy it on Amazon, you'll get an email. You go back to my website. You put in your ticket or your invoice number, whatever it is.

We'll send you a link to a podcast they did with Joe Buck and John Hamm. You'll get three chapters free. early to read. And yeah, a bunch of cool giveaways and stuff. And then there's some other book packages too. But a lot of opportunities for folks to kind of see some cool stuff that are behind the scenes.

Do you view it more as a hockey book? I mean, there's stuff in here that I think people in the business world and all kinds of arenas are going to be drawn to as well. Yeah, no, it's not your prototypical sports book. It's part, you know, part memoir, part life lessons. gleaned from youth hockey, youth sports all the way up through, you know, junior, pro, and then life after. And a lot of it really is just about challenging yourself, taking advantage of the opportunities that you create, and then, you know, holding yourself accountable.

And, you know, there's nobody that can take hold of yourself better than yourself. And so really the turning point in my career was when I started to set standards for myself, when I stopped having the victimhood mentality. And I was getting booed in St. Louis and life was miserable. And I was depressed and hated going out in public. And it was just it was miserable. And it wasn't until I, A, set standards for myself and realized, okay, you have talent, but there needs to be more.

What does it look like? I need to be the hardest worker in the room. I need to be committed. And I need to stop blaming other people for my lot in life. So what? You're getting booed. Go and take ownership. Stop saying it was the fan's fault, your teammates fall, the refs fault, the coaches

fall and just go out and perform at the highest level and let the chips fall where they may. And ultimately, when you stop blaming others and take the responsibility, take ownership, things started to change for me. And then I started to see things kind of go and I just started investing in myself and understanding that nobody was going to help me other than me. Nobody cares. You know, you have to take the onus upon yourself to go and take that next step, whatever that looks like for you.

And whether you're trying to level up and be a difference maker at work with your family, whatever it is, this book has been written to challenge you and make you think a little deeper about where you are and where you want to go. And so, you know, it's really an ownership, leadership, and part memoir of my life and my struggles and then my success and how I got there, how I got from the bottom to the top. Because I think a lot of times people look at, oh, they look at the trophies, they look at the rings and all the rest of it. And they're like, oh, it was easy. It was far from easy. I can tell you that.

And we get what we put into it. And another key factor in the book is as I walk through my career, the adversity that I faced only prepared me for what was to come. And leading into that adversity and really growing from, we hear people now talk all the time. Like I believe adversity is a gift. If I'm not challenging myself, if I'm not facing adversity head on and pushing myself to get into a challenging moment

I'm not going to grow. I'm not going to get better at whatever it is I'm doing, whether it's reading a book. Oh, by the way, here it is. Here it is again. Or trying to be a better hockey player, trying to be a better leader at work, trying to be a better father, wife, husband, whatever,

whatever you're doing. You have to level up. You have to lean into adversity to grow and get that grit and resilience and that resolve that nothing is going to stop you. And it forges this much stronger mindset that you're going to be undefeated, that you cannot be defeated in life, not sports, just life in general. And so a lot of the book is centered around that and just challenging people.

Pretty big name to narrate the audio book version, I hear. Congrats. I got a special guest to read their forward. and then I too read the audio book. That's right. The audio book will be pretty cool. Love it. Secret Squirrel on the forward, but go by the book and you'll know who read the forward

because he read his own forward. All right. Interesting. Show us that cover one more time. I don't know if we got it. I love to show you this cover one. We're trying to get people to subscribe to the YouTube version here, man. There we go.

There we go. That's right. The book is earned available. April 14th, Chris Pronger. Thank you so much for joining us, Chris today. This was great. You bet. Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. Take a quick break. Be right back. All right. We are back. Thanks again to Chris Pronger for joining us. Remember, you can go to Chrispronger.com slash book to buy earned. April 14th is the release date. John, I want to close today talking about a couple things. One is Radco Gudis. And I don't know if you saw the Elliott Friedman report that

Goudis wants to play against the Leafs. What do you make of this? I mean, I think there's some element to this that's like, hey, I answer. I'm, you know, I know you're going to want to come after me. That's what it is. Yeah. I don't need that from Radko Gut. I don't think anyone questions whether Radco Gutus is going to answer the bell. If he's, if there's a question here, I don't know that that's this. I respect it, but I don't know that I need that out of him. If I'm Radco Goodus, I just want to get it out of the way. I, I, I, it wouldn't, there's no, um, it's the word I'm looking for here. There's no like nobility. in the act.

You're just like, I'm going to have to fight somebody. I might as well just do it at the first possible turn. The interesting question is what the Leafs do about it, because we've heard ad nauseum from a million different people in a million different spots about the response there. We know that Brad Trillivin was pissed about it. We know that Craig Barrube was pissed about it. We know that players on the ice were, you know,

taking responsibility and upset with themselves. It completely took over the discourse in a lot of regards after the Austin Matthews injury. So I'm interested if Radco Gudis indeed plays, who is the guy that engages him? I think, you know, the lizard brain part of my, of my hockey fan brain kind of takes over.

And I'm like, okay, let's see, let's see who actually steps up and ends up, and ends up dancing with this guy, because that seems like that's just what they're trying to get finished with and get out of the way. Well, to me, you mentioned like the nobility. Like, to me, the nobility comes from the fact that that's going to happen whether he plays or not.

not. And it's just, I think he wants to at least be like, all right, well, I don't want one of my teammates to take the brunt of this. Right. What do you get, you don't want cut or go chair or whoever to, to have to have to do something that's that's unnecessary. You just get it over with and move on because it's going to happen at some point, whether it's, whether it be tonight with someone else, whether it be next season with him, whatever ends up happening is, is inevitable. So you might as well just cross it off the to do list as early as you can. But if I'm a, that's like a very like, hey, we're outsiders. of this. If I'm a Ducks fan, like, my team's going to the playoffs. I don't want Radco

Goudis putting himself in, in jeopardy. Now, granted, he's not going to get like devastatingly hurt from, but like if he's, if he wasn't going to play aside from this, I don't know that it's a good enough reason from a Ducks perspective for him to play. My, my primary concern if I'm a Ducks fan here is, is kind of what we said earlier, which is that the Leafs because of the discourse and the dialogue surrounding the whole thing, whether there, there's, they're going to be, they're going to feel some degree of obligation to get their pound of flesh regardless of who it's against. So no, if I'm a Ducks fan, I don't necessarily want, you know, anybody engaging, including Radca Gutis in this, but it's also going to happen whether

he's involved or not. So you eliminate the possibility that someone on the Leafs, listen to what their bosses have said over the last, over the last couple weeks and saw the, the fan out and the media outrage at the lack of response to the Matthews stuff, my concern would be that that took enough root over the last little bit for someone to go out and do something stupid against a player who you really, really can't afford to lose, right? So I'd be much more apt if I'm, if I'm Anaheim or if I'm an Anaheim fan to just say like,

okay, we need to get this over with. We need to minimize the damage. We need to make certain that this isn't, that, you know, that again, could cutter gocha is just the, the first name that come to mind that he's completely taken out taken out the equation you gudis goes in he can handle himself he can take whatever lumps might come and then you just kind of move on with your life well in that case what i would almost want to see is the ducks to dress like 11 and 7 let gudas get this out of the way in the first five minutes and then i'd play him like

five minutes the rest of the way if there's any question right because you might as well just keep him fresher and and have your 11 forward 60 kind of thing but it's a valid point that like there's two two different teams with very different considerations in this game tonight. And it will make it an entertaining one to watch. I respect it if he does play for this. But I don't know. There's a little more to it there for me.

For sure. And also if you're Anaheim, you know, there are, you don't want to get completely caught up in the circus of this. Exactly. Like there are three points ahead of Edmonton. You still want to, like regardless of how bad Vegas has gotten, you still want to stay out as second or third place. And then in the division, you want to make sure that you have one of the wildcards. teams come to town there. And I, and I think that needs to be a consideration too. But big picture, honestly, I think it's best for them to just get this out of the way now. Let good

is fight. Make sure nothing stupid happens and move on with your lives. Speaking of the wildcard teams, that race is not as, it's not getting as much attention as in the East because there's not going to be like a potentially historic cut line. Still pretty good cluster right there at the wild card. I mean, like Nashville 77. points, Kings are at 76, Seattle's at 75, Winnipeg's at 74, they're not out of it. Neither, by the way, necessarily are San Jose or St. Louis, who each have 73. St. Louis has the most games remaining, too. I think them in Seattle both have 10.

There's a little bit of intrigue to that race, too, which we're just not talking about it as much. Yeah, because the predators are dragging their feet a little bit. They're playing really well for a while, but they've lost three straight now. So the result for now is that they're up on L.A. and Seattle in points, but behind them points percentage. Like this is, this is really,

really close. It's crazy. Like, it does feel like whoever's in that spot is just playing for the right to have four playoff games against the abs. But that's part of the fun, man. Like,

I'm of the mindset that if you have a playoff race or a race to make the postseason, it doesn't really matter how good the teams are that are involved. If it's close and if it's tight and if it leads to games of consequence, you don't have to work. without the fact that, you know, nobody thinks the Seattle Cracken are particularly good. They're playing relevant hockey that gives us something to pay attention to. And that's, and that's really all you can ask for.

Is there a team you want to see? And I mean, it's a short series, most likely either way. Is there a team you want to see in it, though? Yeah, let's get Winnipeg back in there, honestly. Because the hellabuck of it all. Because the hellabuck factor. Because that at least, you at least have some degree of, you know, ahead of the series. You can fool yourself into thinking that maybe he, he does Olympic,

stuff over the course of seven games against Colorado. The irony of it, honestly, for Winnipeg is that, you know, they've dragged themselves back into this, despite him not being all that good. Like, he's better now than he was before the Olympic break, but we're also not seeing 10 Bell peak Connor Hellebuck either. So that's, that's a big variable. And I think in a lot of regards, that makes them, you know, a little bit more interesting. I, I don't, I don't want to see the Kings. That's the one thing that I've, I'm actively, actively reading against them. I feel like most of their fan base is, too. Let's, let's leave them out of this. I'm fine with the Preds. I'm fine with with the crack and I'm fine with the Jets. But man, let's, I don't, I have, I've, the LA Kings can do

nothing for me at this point. The only thing I'll say about the Kings is, is on Zay Kopitar. And I, a guy who is such a winner and such a likable player, I feel like he's on my lady big ballot every year. And it's, I mean, it's earned, but it's also mostly just because I really like him. And I would be sad to see his career end missing a playoffs, but I would be sad to see it end in a playoff sweep too. It's really no better. And also, by the way, like the San Jose sharks, I was ready to completely drop them fully out of the, out of the discussion last week. They're ahead of Winnipeg on points percentage. And everyone loves the blues because they're tearing it up too. San Jose somehow is ahead of them in points percentage as well. So they have a,

they have a real chance. I feel like that would be everybody's, everybody's choice is going to be the sharks just because of the celebrini factor. But man, it's getting late. And there's a lot of teams in between them and in the spot. But who knows, man, none of these teams are any good. That's the variable. They all stink. So everything's on the table.

I couldn't be happier about it. If you were a sharks fan, would you want? Like, obviously, it'd be great. You're ahead of schedule. You get Mac in. Lose. You'd way rather have another top 10 pick, right? Lose.

Absolutely. I think it's mission accomplished on this season. in a lot of ways. How many games would they play? Sin Jose's played 71 games left. 11 left. Outside of them going, oh and 11 and getting their brakes beat off

for the next 20 days, like I don't think there's anything that's going to blunt the momentum there. They've already done enough. Celebrini's taking a couple. He's a top five player in the world. It is not a, it's not of a debate anymore.

Like it was a debate earlier this year. He's a top five player in the world. Totally. But what I would rather do, outside, you know, you don't want to, if you make the playoffs, all bets are off. But I don't, I don't want to see, I don't want, I either want them to make the playoffs or finish, you know, with the, with a seventh worst record in the league. You know what I mean? Just, just keep amassing talent and take the growth that you've seen this season and feel great about it and move on to 26, 27. They still need a defenseman. There are D at the top of this draft to be had. And if the San Jose Sharks get one of them, look out two or three years from now. It's really the only missing piece they have left. You guys can talk about this guys on the Prospect Series.

All right, all right. We'll move it along. That is going to do it for us. Thanks for listening to this episode of The Athletic Hockey Show. Sean, Sean and Frankie will have you covered on Wednesday. Big week for you, Sean. You got a lot of extra work. Thanks for doing this and sub it in for us here today.

Three pod week, baby. Let's go. Full time job. People are going to be even more. of me than they already are. God help you coming up with something to say on Thursday after doing two of these in the previous three days. Just not, you know, we're going to have Shane come on and talk to Haley about stuff. I can just be third chair and turn my brain off. That's my plan. All right. So mark your calendar for that. Shane and Haley talking stuff on Thursday. Sean Brainoff.

Big upgrade. That's right. All right, everybody. Thanks for doing this. Thanks again to Chris Bronger. We'll talk to you soon.