The Athletic Hockey Show - Canada beats Sweden in 4 Nations Face-Off opener

Episode Date: February 13, 2025

Mark Lazerus, Rob Rossi and Peter Baugh discuss and dissect the first game of the 4 Nations Face-Off, an overtime win for Canada over Sweden in Montreal on Wednesday night. The guys turn the page and preview Team Finland and Team USA which takes place Thursday night in Boston and stick tap the news that the World Cup of Hockey will indeed return with an 8-team tournament in 2028. Host: Mark LazerusWith: Rob Rossi and Peter BaughExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Jeff Domet Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. Hello and welcome to the Athletic Hockey Show. I am Mark Lazarus. I am joined today by Peter Baugh in New York and Rob Rossi in Pittsburgh. We're filling in for Haley and Sean on the Thursday edition. We're recording this late Wednesday night and just moments ago, Sidney Crosby coming down the ice, the Montreal crowd chanting his name during play, sets up Mitch Marner for the game-winning goal,

and Canada escapes the opener of the Four Nations faceoff with a four-to-three overtime victory over a very pesky Sweden. which had one of the worst starts we've ever seen and still almost pulled this thing out. Now, we got a lot to talk about. We also want to preview U.S. Finland tomorrow, talk about some other things. But I had to start with Rob Rossi,

noted hater of the Four Nations face off, maybe the most pessimistic person in the hockey world coming into this game. And I got to know, did that opener do anything to sway you? No, I mean, it was, there was a lot of sloppy hockey. I mean, look, Three on three overtime is junk.

I don't care if they play it for five minutes, ten minutes, a hundred minutes. Canada should thrive at three on three. They have the most skilled forwards. They have the worst goal tending. That's why they're going to not win this tournament. And I think that, look, I cover Sidney Crosby. I've covered him for his whole career. I'm very happy he had this moment.

Canada won a game in Montreal against a Sweden team that had one shot in the first period. Whoopty-do. And I do, I will say this. All the things that we're going to talk about in the game, I don't think are going to be remembered as much as the, for what was the most part, the surprise of seeing Lemieux in Montreal show up like he did in a way to sort of endorse this team Canada, this generation. and this tournament. What this tournament needed was somebody like him to bless it because no matter

what the players were saying, people really weren't into this. This gives them a chance. This whole day gives them a chance to get into it. But I don't think the game itself was anything special. There were a lot of moments in the game that I think will remember. But the game itself was just, you know, it was an okay game. All right. Rob, Rob hates everything. I want to go to the guy who likes everything, which is Peter Baugh. Peter, give me the optimism here. We've started this show on a real downer note. Give me something good, Peter. Well, I definitely don't like everything, but I did like this, and I am glad that this tournament is happening. And I think you saying, Rob, that it wasn't the best hockey ever is true because these teams have practiced together twice.

Like, there's going to be some kinks that they have to work out. But I think what it did give, I'm going to kind of do the opposite spin as you on the same thing, is it. it gave us these great moments. And I think that is like what we will remember. I think you look at like some of the greatest sporting moments in history. Some of them came after like relatively sloppy games played. But you remember the great moments. And I think the McDavid to Crosby to McKinnon goal that opened the game, I think that's going to be played for years. I think Sid's name getting chanted in overtime and then Marner scoring right after on a SID assist. I think that's going to get replayed. And I think these moments are lasting. And maybe people won't remember exactly the score of the

game and they won't remember that Sweden kind of got pummeled the first chunk of the game. But they'll remember the things that matter. And I think that makes tournaments like this cool. I don't remember a single thing that happened in the 2010 gold medal game between the U.S. and Canada. I just know that. Yeah, I do. Somebody left Crosby wide open. But what I'm saying is. No, you're right, though, Peter. You hit on something there.

And, Laz, you're right. I am cynical about this. But here's the thing. This tournament doesn't mean anything. All right. And by that I mean, it's a thrown-together tournament by the NHL involving four specific nations that has no precedent, okay? They can try to attach it to the Canada Cup or tangibly attach it to other international tournaments

that we've liked. This one is a new entity altogether, okay? Nobody's going to remember who won the four nations. If when the NHL comes back to the games that it's paying customers are supposed to be going to in a couple of weeks, there are numerous moments like we got tonight. The tournament was a success because the tournament itself as a competitive endeavor, nobody's going to care about that in the long run. these moments have a chance to make it a much bigger deal.

I came into this kind of on Rob's side. I was really cynical about this. I've been making fun of the stupid name and the terrible grammatical mistakes in the name. And, you know, I was in Toronto when they announced this at the All-Star game last year. My eyes were rolling back in my head like a slot machine. I was with, you know, David Poschnock's like, dude, what the hell? And I'm like, I know, right? And like the whole thing, it kind of bothered me.

And I thought it was going to be lame and forced. and then the puck drop and I was like, this is kind of great. Oh, my God, look at that pass from Crosby. Oh, my God. I got sucked in. Maybe I'm a sap. It took me almost immediately. I was like, oh, this is like, and I'm a big All-Star guy.

Like, I don't mind All-Star games the way everybody else hates them. But I was like, oh, my God, this is 14 million times better than an All-Star weekend, inject this straight into my veins in the dog days of the season when there's nothing going on. I was all in. I was surprised at how quickly I got sucked into it, to be honest with you. I'll tell you the moment I was sold was earlier. It was whenever they had the first practice and you started seeing the videos come out, there was a clip of like McKinnon and Cros,

or McKinnon and it was McKinnon and McDavid. They were talking through the power play for Canada. And then you see Sid slowly skate over so he can join the conversation. And then you see Cale McCar skate over so that he can join the conversation. And I was like, this is going to be incredible. Like if these guys care, which they, they do like that clearly saw connor mac david's first handful of shifts holy crap did he care he was yeah out there like if these guys care then this is going to be really really cool and it's going to be awesome hockey and maybe

people forget who wins the tournament in however many years and that's okay like i don't a lot of people can't forget who won it by the end of march and that's fine that that that's fine if they have the moments you're talking about. The problem is, are games that don't involve Canada in Montreal going to have those moments? Now, look, they might, and then I'll eat crow. I'll come back on whenever Sean and Haley get back and I'll be like, look, I was wrong. But you're going to need these games to deliver moments more than greatness of the games. Because here's the thing. Nobody in America is watching these games that don't involve Team USA. It's going to be a very small audience. So if you're asking for like what makes this a successful tournament from the NHL's perspective, right?

It's how do you draw attention to your product? How do you draw attention to your talent? You're going to need moments like this that can get on SportsCenter, preferably before the D block. Because once you take the Canada out of Montreal specialness away from this, you're eventually going to get Sweden versus Finland in a game that people at us like hockey, we will love that. It'll be sleepy time down south after Canada. And when you don't have the U.S. in Canada, you're also going to have these matchups that lack that.

So I'm just saying two things can be true. The games and the results cannot really matter to a grand scheme, but the moments can matter in measurable ways. And I think the moments tonight carried the opening night of this tournament. Yeah. And the thing for me is like, I'm sure there will be a lot of pontificating about the ratings, whatever happens in this tournament, whatever the gold medal game ratings are, there will be articles about, I am not someone who cares about ratings at all.

I'm like, it's not my problem. If I enjoy watching it, that is what I care about. I'll let the other people figure out growing the game and whatnot. Along those lines, like, you know, Rob mentioned, you know, getting on Sports Center. I don't know anybody who watches sports anymore. That's not how people get their sports anymore. That's not how they get their high. These moments.

Get on YouTube. No, these moments, that's good. These moments have to live on in gift form, on social media. Like Philip Gustafson save, that's a moment that can, people can see that whether you watch hockey or not and go, holy crap, that was awesome. You're absolutely right, Mark. And to be clear, so look, I think the tournament's just a gimmick. But of course it's a gimmick.

It's a gimmick that's worthwhile if we get moments like this every night that people that may not even be hockey fans are finding on, I don't know, is TikTok still a thing? Okay, on a social media site, right? Like the way people digest sports now, Peter's right, is not to sit down and watch the games. So when I say nobody's going to watch, I mean that. I don't think there's going to be big TV numbers. that doesn't matter. You need the influencers. You need the younger people

who are consuming things in ways that I don't. Mark, don't be here you might. And that tonight was delivered. And that's why what I'm saying, I guess what I'm saying is, is like, we are conditioned to think of these tournaments. And Mark, you've covered them at the international level. We're conditioned to think of these tournaments

as the winner and the games being the end all. I'm not viewing the four nations face off, which, by the way, you're totally right, is beyond aggravating the way they've grammatically just put this thing in a hole shoveled dirt on it. But the first time my editor changed at the four and then had the face off. And took out the hype in between four and eight.

No, it's killing. Yeah. But that's what I mean. If I'm, as a person who wants this to succeed from the standpoint of my job will be presumably more interesting to people if they find this tournament, that's what I care about.

The fact that we came out with moments tonight that somebody that like a nephew or cousin who doesn't watch hockey every night might go, that was really cool and they might watch hockey coming out of that. I'm all for that. Well, that's what we're talking about when we always talk about growing the game, right? It's like, and this is, if anything,

it also underscores how important the Olympics are because the Olympics people do tune in. They do watch things they normally don't watch because it's the Olympics. So Olympic hockey tournament is great. That's how you truly. grow the game. You grow the game incrementally by this by just kind of like drawing some attention to the sport in this dead time. If this is practice for the Olympic tournament, then that's

all great. And I don't see why that's a bad framing of it. If this is the warm up for the Olympics, why is that a bad thing? Why is that a bad thing? I don't think that's a bad thing. Nobody's out here saying this is as good as the Olympics. Nobody is, nobody in good faith is making that argument. You're right. I think the thing, the thing for me is I am trying to look at this tournament so much more as just am I enjoying watching this? Is this a fun product for me to watch? The answer tonight was yes. I, if it has a broader appeal, that's great. But like, I just, I see this in sports all the time. Ratings across sports are down for a lot of different reasons because of how we consume things. And it's, I'm just liking at this as like,

was this a fun product to watch? And the answer is yes. And I think some of it is because, and this is maybe the idealist in me talking, is like the players care. And I just like that, like, I know that maybe I won't remember in 15 years who won this tournament. But if Canada wins, Mark Stone's going to remember it. It'll be a cool memory for him and probably something he brings with him for a long time.

And all of these guys will. And because of that, they are invested. They are playing hard. And when you see, like, hockey players playing hard, it's really cool, especially when they're the best in the world.

It is. You're right. You're right. The start tonight, though, was not Sydney Crosby or Nathan McKinnon or anybody on Team Sweden or Mary Allemew. The start of night were the people of Montreal. Oh, yeah. That is the best, smartest hockey fan base, by far, in my opinion.

They have not had meaningful hockey games where a packed building could celebrate there in a long time. and, you know, anybody that's been lucky enough to cover big games in Montreal will tell you that singing they do, you know, that's something there. Like, I don't get wishy-washy about anything. And I still remember a series between the penguins and the Canadians where I was like, they're singing on every rush. You know, people don't sing this much at a Springsteen show. And they're singing on every rush. And to me, it underscores that when we do these things, placement of the game in a market matters as much as the teams involved. Because the Montreal games are going to stand out in a way that I don't think you'll see in the other markets.

And we'll get into that later in the show. And we talk about the new, the World Cup coming back. And Gary Bettman basically saying, hey, it's open, open bids. And we could talk about that a little bit. But I want to kind of get back to what Peter was saying with that, like, this is just better than the alternative. right? Like this podcast is more interesting than it would probably be on February 13th if it was just February 13th during the regular season.

It's good hashtag content, right? And that's the whole point of it. I do want to talk about the game a little bit, not just about all the big picture stuff. Let's talk about, I do want to talk about Sidney Crosby. I mean, I joke that he's, it's just, it's, it's, it's hilarious how much we talk about Sydney Crosby, especially when it comes to international events and, you know, Canada doesn't have a 26th game winning streak. Sidney Crosby has a 26 game winning streak.

But at the same time, and this sounds absurd and it feels weird coming out of my mouth, do we take Sidney Crosby for granted? Yes. We have been for... He's 37 and he's out there and he's the best player on the ice still. He can play to least 50 if he wants. Sidney Crosby, and I've said this with all due respect to every player that is in this league now that has come since him, all the great young players,

said it, I will stand by it. You've got one guy to win a face-off and win a game for you in overtime. Who are you given the face-off to? Conor Bedard. Yeah. Okay. So after that, it's Sidney Crosby. And like I said, with all due respect to McDavid and McKinnon, you've seen how they've fallen in line behind Sidney Crosby. Canada did not experience this resurgence. Remember, the Canadian national team at the highest level involving NHL players was a one-off champion. It was 2002. The Gretzky built aging Lemieux team that had a Ginglin when he was younger and all that. But that was the team that sort of broke Canada's drought in the Olympics, right? Before that, remember, 98 wasn't a shining moment for them, okay?

2006 wasn't a shining moment for them. Canada, as we know it, as an international dominant force with NHL players, began when Crosby went to Vancouver and by the end of that tournament, you realized the best guy in the NHL is also the best guy for this moment and it's not stopped since. So when you ask, do we take him for granted? Yes, because the Pittsburgh Penguins are a tire fire engulfed in a, you know, flaming mess of, you know, machinations. But they're not going to be in the playoffs anytime soon. So we're going to see the Sidney Crosby in this tournament and in the Olympics that we forgotten about, which is a player who consistently rises to the occasion. So I was not surprised by

this tonight other than the fact that at some point, whatever he did to get this injury feeling good, medicine wears off. So we'll see how good it is by the end of the tournament. But if you, anybody that's been watching this guy went, I was surprised he was the best player. I was surprised he looked dominant. Like, what have you been watching? We've been, we've been, we've been, watching the new hotness. We've been watching Connor McDavid and Nathan McKinnon and Kilmacar. And these players are fabulous players. I mean, Connor McDavid is the singularly most gifted hockey player that's ever lived. I don't think anyone's going to question that. Second. Except for Rob Rossi. But we've gotten to this point where with Sid, where we just

kind of like, yeah, he's going to still get his 95 points a year or 100 points a year and play selfy caliber defense and keep a dead franchise floating and sort of on the periphery of playoff contention. And yep, you keep you keep working hard. Sid, we love you, buddy. And we kind of lose sight about he's still doing it. His talent isn't appreciated. Rob, do you think playing in this tournament is going to maybe inspire Sid to want to move on to a

different team and get back in the playoff hunt? Do I think this tournament? No, Sidney's never leaving. He's a creature of happy. I mean, look, even if I thought that, I don't want Biznasty to be happy enough to ever see it happen. So, but look, I'll just say this.

You know, Mark made a really good point, though. And Peter, I'm curious, having covered the avalanche, and now you're in the New York area, I have argued for years that we do a disservice to Sidney Crosby when we focus on his leadership and his work ethic because it doesn't give enough credit to the actual talent that's there. Like, I've not seen many players that can do what he does with a backhand pack. ever. I've not seen guys who can use other players momentum against them in close quarters to create

space for himself. He did both of those things tonight. Yes, right. And so this is what I would say to everybody as somebody who's been around this guy, right? Yes, appreciate his greatness. But also, let's dispel this notion that, yes, McDavid's talent is off the charts, right? There are other more skilled players than Sidney Crosby. There aren't many in the history of the game that are better. And it's not just because he has this work ethic. It's also because he's really good at a lot of the things to hockey. And here's the thing.

That's exactly what I mean when I say, do we, that's exactly what I'm saying. Do we take him for granted? We do. We do. And here's how I know, right? Sidney Crosby, would anybody here on this panel say that Sidney Crosby is a great goal scorer? A natural goal score? At this point in his career, no.

Ever. I mean like a natural, like, this isn't a guy who came into the league and you went, he's going to pop 60. He always kind of toiled in Ovechkin's shadow in that regard. Right. Sidney Crosby is going to end up of close to 700 goals and 1,800 points. So you don't get that by just working hard.

That's my point. Like, you also have to be good. I feel like that's what we don't appreciate about Crosby. We went through this on a much lower scale with Jonathan Taves at the peak of his career, where people just assumed that he just did what he did by sheer force of manly will. And they forgot that he was like really freaking good at hockey for a long time. And Mark, that's a Canadian argument, right? Because like in Canada, and I'm not, this isn't a knock on Canada.

In Canada, the prioritization of the effort and the will is much more celebrated. then it's almost like if you're also really skilled, you didn't earn it. I call it like I grew up in a Catholic household. You always associate suffering with anything that good comes. Like that's the way we're taught, right? Like in Canada, it's not just like, if you're just skilled, it's like, well, does he really want it? Does he really work hard? And then the guys that are skilled and work hard, we focus so much on the hard work that we don't talk about the skill.

All right, well, let's let's talk a little bit about the big hot topic coming into the tournament, which was Canadian goaltending. Jordan Bennington got the start. Some people were surprised by that. Some people expected that. For the first like 15 minutes, he didn't face his shot. So he was looking pretty good over there. But we, you know, five minutes in this game, we're like, oh, my God, Canada is going to run away with this game and this tournament.

And they got back into it. And they got back into it because they're a good club. But also, because Jordan Bennington gave up a couple of goals that he probably shouldn't do. The Kempi goal in particular, the equal. in goal he went down to early on. Peter, I'll go to you with this. Can you start Jordan Bittington again in the next game? Or do you have to try Sam Montenboe out or,

or forgive me, I forgetting who the other Canadian goalie is? I mean, it doesn't feel like you would go to Montaubo. I think it's either Bennington or Hill. I was texting with Jesse Granger because he understands goalies much more than I do. I'm not good at analyzing what goalies are at fault for. He said the Kempi goal is the one Binnington would want back. And that's probably true. I think he, other than that, played pretty well.

I don't know if Aiden Hill's going to give you a better performance. Like both of these goalies are around 900 and save percentage this year. Both have had Stanley Cup runs, but have been inconsistent goalies throughout other parts of their careers. Bennington was great last season. He's taken a dip this season, or at least his numbers have. It's hard to say because the blues are a different. defensively challenged team. I don't know.

I would probably run it back because you, you won this game. And I don't think he did anything egregious enough that you need to, to switch it up. And I think his, his playing overtime was spectacular and kept them in the game. So I don't know. He did.

He made a fabulous save on Kempi on the back door in overtime, about midway through overtime that basically saved the game. There's no doubt about that. Yeah. And it's, look, it's different if they have Connor Hellebuck or Jake Ottinger waiting in the wings, but this team doesn't. Like, they don't have the U.S. as roletending. I did enjoy the Logan Thompson, Phil Kessel tweet memes where they just put Logan Thompson's face over Phil Kessel's World Cup tweet 2016, where it's like, just sitting around with the dog. I feel like there's something I should do, but can't put my finger on it.

I enjoyed that because that's kind of the vibe I was getting, too, is they might have set this roster a little too early. I'd go with Hill. I'd go with Hill against the United States, though. What do you have to lose? You won this game, right? Like, you won the game. And if you beat him, then you're probably, you're probably okay. Yeah.

So I would go with Hill just from the standpoint of like, none of these guys are that good. So right now. Like, so why not see what you have against another guy against the, you know, your rival? And then you can sort of figure out from there who your guy is. important to note that this was, you know, with the three-point system here, Canada only got two points for this win because they won it in overtime.

Honestly, I've been advocating for the three-point for as long as I can remember. I was a little disappointed that the last minute or two of the game wasn't more frenetic and frantic for these teams trying to get that third point. My whole hope with the three-point system is that we would lose the gentleman's point, right? Where both teams kind of sit back, all right, let's just get this game to overtime, so we both have something to feel good about. and it wasn't quite that, but this was not two teams desperate to get that third point. I got to say that disappointed me.

I think it will be that different in an NHL season, though, when you have multiple games as opposed to like the first game of a tournament where you're trying to sort of give yourself a foundation with any points. It's such a short tournament, though, here. Like one point could be the difference. It could. I also wanted to make one other point about the kind of some kinks that they're probably working out and will need to work out with this tournament.

One thing that I was wondering about is, so Shay Theodore goes down and he leaves the game, is out for the rest of the game. We don't know if he's going to be back this tournament. It certainly didn't look very good. He was getting X-rays and looked like he was in a lot of pain. So now Travis Sandheim is Canada's seventh D if Theodore, can't go, he's presumably slots in. I don't understand why the rosters are frozen. There were a lot of tweets like Canada isn't allowed to add more players. I don't understand why

in an emergency situation, they shouldn't, like, they should be allowed to like fly someone in from their Mexico vacation if a defenseman gets hurt. I'd love to see the email instead of recalled from like Rockford, it would say recalled from Tulum. Yeah, like Evan Bouchard or someone should just get flown back in. I just don't understand how they can, if Canada loses another defenseman, how they can justify them not being able to do that. And maybe there will be some exception made in an emergency situation. But I was just surprised by that.

And I think that's like probably the biggest fear I have for this tournament is if something like that happens and the legitimacy of it is called into question because suddenly Sam Bennett is taking shifts as a defenseman because the Canadians don't. have anyone. An exception made if it affects Canada in an international tournament. I would be stunned. All right. We're getting, we're

getting to America, Rob. We're going to go take a quick break and we'll get to U.S. Finland preview right after this. Hey, it's Mark Lazarus. I want to tell you about Connection Sports Edition, a new game for sports fans from the athletic. It's basically a daily dose of trivia and it's so satisfying to solve. I've been playing the beta version for months every

morning. It's one of the first things I do when I get up. And I got to say, I'm already hooked on it. If you know the Connections game from the New York Times Puzzles app, it's the same idea. Just with sports, play now at the athletic.com slash connections. All right, we're back. We're going to get to U.S. Finland in a moment, but news just came across the wire that Shea Theodore is out for the tournament now after getting hit into the boards by Adrian Kempay. He was holding his wrist.

Jackie Redman on the TNT broadcast said that she saw him go into the X-ray room. This is the worst nightmare, right? This is John Tavares and Sochi. This is, except it's not even the Olympics. It's like what Rob is saying. It's like a phony made-up tournament. and you potentially have a major injury to a major player for the Vegas Golden Knights, this is a potential disaster, isn't it?

It's beyond a disaster. It's a team that can legitimately win the Stanley Cup that has less of a chance of it, potentially, depending on the severity of this injury. And it's why I've argued my entire life that I'm all for NHL players being in tournaments like this in the summer. Were you arguing this when you were five? years old, really? Yeah, I really was. I had very few friends, other than my imaginary friends that I put around me to come up with sort of debates. I would remember like Rob 2 being like,

hockey in season tournaments. I'd be like, no, Rob 2, you're a moron. Don't go in that direction. But, um, uh, yeah. We should also add that Elliot Friedman must have been eavesdropping into the last segment we had because he tweeted out that there is kind of an understanding that if a team can't field 18 skaters, they can potentially parachute in additional roster help. So hopefully there are no more injuries, but if there are and Canada can't feel the full group, it seems like they would have recourse to bring someone in. To address Rob and Rob 2's complaints about, I do have concerns about summer. If you watch the World Cup, if you thought this game was a little disjointed early,

the World Cup was some of the sloppiest hockey I've ever seen because it was played in September. The advantage of having it, I've always been kind of like, let's, why don't you move it to the Summer Olympics? But if you want good hockey, you want it in midseason when these guys are in midseason form. So anyway, U.S. Finland is the big game on Thursday night. Finland's always this interesting team, right? Like the U.S. is indisputably got more high-end talent than Finland does. Like on paper, they should win this game by an awful lot.

But Finland has this way in these international tournaments where they play that Finnish style of hockey. They require fewer practices. They play with coherence in their game. and they tend to be really difficult outs. Do you see any way that Finland does to the United States what Sweden was able to do to Canada tonight? There's always a chance. I mean, you get a hot goaltender in a one game sample size

and things can happen. What really bums me out about Finland is I look at their forward lines and I'm like, man, that's a great team that's really tough to play against. And they all kind of have this hardworking mindset and stuff. what really bums me out is that Mira Haskinen got hurt and that they've had so many blows to their defensive core. And that makes me think it's going to be really hard for them to pull off a miracle with Mira Haskinen in there, with even like Ristel Ainen is out. They're just down so many guys to the point where Erho Vakinen, who's a fine number six defenseman on the Rangers. But like this is a guy

who's a number six defenseman on a team that's currently out of playoff position. And it's suddenly playing in this tournament because of all their injuries. That makes me skeptical. But I said going in that I thought that Finland would win a game, and I'll stand by that. So you're saying Finland's going to be Sweden is what you're saying. I think Finland will beat one of the U.S. or Canada. How about that? Oh, I like it.

Finland will win Thursday night and be in the final. I would love it. The NHL would hate it more than anything that's ever happened in the history of the world. I think it would be fabulous. But here's why. You mentioned it. They in a short tournament have the ultimate advantage. They know how to play with each other.

So they are going to be better than the sum of their parts. And I've covered Mike Sullivan teams. You know the way to frustrate a Mike Sullivan team? Play a really disciplined system, especially in the neutral zone that can counterattack. That's the anecdotal Mike Sullivan team. Watch Finland play in these tournaments. They lull you to sleep. Okay.

They play this style that you're. You're just like, and then you start making mistakes. And then all you go, hey, they're skill. They're skill. They can score on these two-on-ones and three-on-twos. And I think that's what they're going to do to the United States. I don't know that they're a better team in the tournament than the United States on paper. In fact, I don't think they are.

But if you're asking me which team I would bet on in this tournament, I'd bet on the fins over anybody in a one game because they know how to play together more than these other teams do. And unlike Canada, they don't have goaltending issues. Unlike Sweden, they don't have a defense core that sometimes occasionally doesn't play defense. And unlike the Americans, they don't have a lot of egos they're trying to manage. I would say Sweden has a better decor. Sweden's, I think, they don't, there is a tremendous advantage when you have like a horse you can put out there like headman, who you know is going to be responsible for large segments of the game.

Finland's defense is completely battered. But I think you're right that the way they play, the fact that they've got a lot of these guys who are like two-way guys who can grind you down and play really well in the defensive zone, like Anton Lindell and Lusterinen, like those are tough players to go against and frustrating. And then you, like you said, have the scale of Rant, Nanajo, Barkov, Line A, it's going to be a tough team to beat.

You look at the Finns down the middle. Like we go go go go, go, go, go, gaga over, you know, McDavid and McKinnon and Crosby down the middle or, you know, Eichel and Matthews down the middle. Barkoff Ajo, Rupa Hintz and Anton Lundell, that is as good as anyone's God, except for maybe Canada. Like that is a terrific four centers to throw out in line. You got ranton on the wing. I'm always wary of like almost patronizing the Finns and saying, oh, they work hard and they play well together. They got a crap ton of talent, too.

This is still a world-class team. you're absolutely right and here's the thing they might not have the best four centers but their top center has already shown what he can do against the best center in the world right now Connor McDavid right like and I would argue that when you can have a center like Barkoff that does that then you do have the best four centers in the tournament because their center can shut down your your top guy or at the very least prevent him from taking the whole thing over. So just beware of the Finns in this tournament. I think the Finns stylistically and personnel-wise,

even with the defensive injuries, are a really nightmare matchup for both of the North American teams in this tournament. I like a lot of the way that the American team is constructed right now with Ikel, Matthew Kachuk, and Kyle Connor. I love Kyle Connor as the top line left wing. He's going to score a ton of goals in this tournament. He's right be the breakout star. But why can't we get Brady and Matt Kachukuk?

on the same line. Why can't we have a little fun with this? Don't you want to see that? Like, wouldn't you want to be the center on a line with two kachucks on your wings? Like, why don't we, I feel like we always kind of like these coaches shy away from doing things like that. I think that would be, it would be fun and effective. I just assumed it required a NATO resolution given their temperament. They're two St. Louis boys. You want to have, you want to spread out the St. Louis players to make sure as many lines as possible. have St. Louis talent on them.

You've got to be careful because they've both had Emo's pizza beforehand, then they're going to be in a lot of trouble. They're not going to be able to make it through the game. All the gastrointestinal distress they're in. Las, let me ask you something. If you ever get that, both of the Kachucks on the same line, would that be the single most antagonistic line a hockey team's put out since like the 70s flyers?

That's exactly what I was going to say. That feels like a 70s flyers line up to me, right? Like what center can we put in there? Who's the center that would just put it over the top? Like who's the third hand to L. J.T. Miller. Yeah. Why are we not doing that?

My God. How do we know that won't happen against Canada? How do we know that that might isn't Mike Sullivan's plan? The F.U. All right. Well, we got to take another break here. We'll come back, talk a little about the World Cup and about some jerks in Seattle. And we're back.

And another NHL made up phony tournament in Rossi's vision will be the World Cup of hockey, which is back. As of 2020, we finally have an international account. where it's going to be Olympics World Cup, Olympics World Cup every two years, which is what we've always all wanted for a long time here. It'll be an eight country tournament starting in 2020. We know we're going to have Canada, the United States, Finland, Sweden, but then who? Is Russia going to be back in the fold by then? Will the war in Ukraine be over and Russia, welcome back into the fold? You've got to think Czechia and Slovakia will be in there, Germany, because

Leon Drysiddle's got to be in there. Someone's getting left out here, the Swiss, the Danes. but hockey's a much more global sport than it used to be. And some of these countries have made really good inroads. Like Freddie Anderson went back to qualify for the Olympics for Denmark last year. That was a big deal. And Denmark got in. They will be playing in Milan. I don't know.

Somebody's getting left out here. I'm not sure how are you going to really kind of square that with a lot of these players. It's going to be Russia. That's who's getting left out. Because the geopolitical climate that's being used to prevent Russia from playing in these tournaments now, you would have to never have read a history book to see how things are going. But beyond that, we're now in a world where we are establishing that it is normal for Russians not to be involved in these tournaments. And people like me can argue to we're blue in the face that it's not a true international hockey competition without Russia.

But the fact is, they're going to have had how many Olympics without Russia? they're going to have had now the four nations and the World Cup without Russia, right? So, like, we're past, that Rubicon's passed, right? Like, we're there. It's going to be Russia. And what breaks my heart is, I don't want to turn any of this into politics. What breaks my heart is we're never going to get to see Alex Ovechkin again on that stage. We're never going to get to see Alex Ovechkin and Hvgeny Malkin, whose greatest failure,

both have told me was not meddling at their home Olympics, get a chance to at a tone for that. There's an entire generation of fantastic Hall of Fame Russian players. And I'm talking like guys that, you know, you know, guys that right now would make Russia maybe the favorite to win this, they're never even going to get a chance to play an international competition. And as a hockey fan, that's a bummer. That's a bummer for me. I understand all the other issues, but that's a real bummer for me. Well, what's going to be interesting is you're not wrong, certainly. But if things don't change with Russia, the reason that one of the primary reasons

that they won't bring Russia in is because Finnin will just F off and say out of here. And Sweden might do the same. And like, there's a domino effect. It's not just, you know, we're keeping Russia out. It's we're keeping other teams in. So it is a really delicate situation. a lot can change between now in 2028, obviously. I share your skepticism that Russia will be back in anytime soon. I may be a little less passionate about it than you are because I'm kind of okay with the way things are now, but I do think that it's a really delicate, tricky situation to navigate geopolitically and in the sporting world.

So let's, in little brighter news, we have horrible parents in Seattle beating the crap out of kids. I don't know. Like, I was a sports editor at a suburban paper for eight years. I have some, my, my opinion of youth sports parents could not be lower. I think that youth sports parents are among the worst people on the planet. Let me tell you one quick voicemail I got. I came into work one day, right? I check my voicemail. And this guy is just screaming at me, just F bombing me left and right over a high school

baseball story I had written that, you know, this, that, this, that. And I'm the worst person. No, it wasn't baseball, it was basketball. And he's screaming and screaming and screaming at me. This was on Christmas Day. And I could hear in the background of the voicemail gifts being opened. This guy left me a voicemail at 7.30 in the morning on Christmas Day to scream at me about a high school basketball story and miss Christmas for it. Youth sports parents are psychotic.

And what we saw in Seattle with those, that guy just that 250 pound dude coming on the ice and just shoving to 13, I think was 13 and 14 year old reference. not just nudging them. He shoved them to the ground, WWE style. Like, I am not in the least bit surprised. And I think that, I don't know what the answer is here because parents have gone so over the, and obviously not all parents, but it is so bad out there. The way, you know, I coach youth soccer and it's like a little seven, eight,

nine, ten year old. So it's not that bad yet. But like the first thing I tell them, if I hear one peep out of any of you, your kid's off the team and it's going to be your fault. Like, I just can't deal with these people. They're just the worst people on the planet. I've long advocated, A, that my uncle should apologize to you for the way he treated you on Christmas Day, but B, that having also covered youth sports, I've long advocated that they would be much better if the parents were not allowed near the games. I feel like, and hockey parents tend to be the craziest of the bunch, it feels like.

Like, this is, like, you know, youth soccer and youth softball and youth baseball, it's all, there's a lot of this. but hockey seems to really bring out maybe it's the competitive nature of the sport. I think it's a cost. I think it's a cost. Yeah. I mean, the investment. I think they feel more entitled to be aggressive

because the cost is so extensive. And I don't just mean the financial cost in a lot of these places and probably in Seattle, there probably aren't enough ranks, right? Oh, the time. Like we've seen this in market. So it's the time investment too. But yeah, those people should never have any.

The person that did that should never. be allowed in a hockey arena anywhere again for the rest of their life, period, full stop. And the Cracken, to their credit, they invited the two teenage referees and their families to a game. You know, this happened on, I think, the Cracken Community Ice that, you know, that they have their own rank, like a lot of these teams do, that the community gets to use. It was just awful. And, you know, Peter, you, you worked in college football for a little while there. Are college football parents as crazy as youth sports parents? I mean, I covered SEC football.

There's a lot of crazy people who, they don't even have to be related to the kids. I'm probably, I can probably, I mean, there's, look up, I mean, look up what happened to the trees in Auburn, Alabama. Oh, I remember that, the poisoning. Like, there, it's, it's a little different down there. I agree with everything you said. Sports parents, there are a lot of good ones. There are a few really bad ones. And it's quite upsetting, and it takes things away from the kids themselves, which is what this should all be about.

And I'm glad that the refs and their families will get to see a resurgent capocaco and the Seattle Cracken. There are times when I'm kind of bummed that my kids are both little nerds and my two daughters. They're not really into sports. Like, they do play a little sports, but they're not like into sports. Like, they're not going to go anywhere in sports. But then every now and then I'm reminded what it was like to cover them, cover high school. sports. I'm like, no, I'm good. I'll take it. Anyway, I have enjoyed, I've enjoyed this, our little FU line here of Rob Rossi, Peter Ball and myself. Max Bolton and I have the next

The Athletic Hockey Show Monday right here on the Athletic Podcast Network. Thanks for listening to The Athletic Hockey Show.