The Athletic Hockey Show - Canucks come back strong after pause, Robin Lehner's comments on the NHL's treatment of players during the pandemic, and more

Episode Date: April 22, 2021

Ian Mendes and Sean McIndoe discuss the Canucks' strong return to play, could they make a miraculous run to the playoffs? Also, in regards to the NHL's statement after the conviction of Derek Chauvin, is it better for leagues/teams to say nothing than to just have a generic statement? Then, the duo discusses the NHL GM meeting and the proposed change to the puck over the glass rule.Then, Jesse Granger stops by to discuss Robin Lehner's comments about the NHL's treatment of players during the pandemic, they answer your emails, and take a look back with "This Week in Hockey History".You can always email us your questions at [e-mail], or leave a VM at [phone]!Save on a subscription to The Athletic: theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back, everybody. It's another edition of the Athletic Hockey show. Ian met us alongside Sean McIndoo on this episode of the podcast. The Vancouver Canucks? Are they maybe starting to write a miraculous chapter year? We'll talk about the seeds being planted for an epic run on the West Coast. NHL general managers met this week. We'll dig into their agenda and talk about what they talked about and maybe some things that we would have liked to have had on that agenda as well.

and this week's installment of Granger things. Jesse Granger will drop by the analyze Robin Lenners pointed comments at the podium this week where he straight up accused the National Hockey League of lying. We'll open up our listener mailbag. And this week in hockey history has us thinking about the most obscure players in NHL history that hold a spot in the record book. So we'll get to all of that and more coming up in this jam-packed edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. But Sean, as we bring you in here for the first segment here,

I just want to ask you about something because you and I are, look, we've talked to people, you and I went to university together, we're the same age group. And we're that Gen X that as it comes to vaccines, we were like, we are all in on this vaccine. And I got one scheduled for next week. And you were fortunate enough to get one this week. And you're now doing this podcast within 24 hours of having your first dose of

vaccine. I think it's important that at the very least, we talk about those people that have been vaccinated, talk about how you're feeling, how you're doing. And so that's the question. How is Sean McIndew doing about 20 hours or so since he had his first dose of the AstraZeneca vaccine? Honestly, I'm pretty close to 100%. I, my wife and I both ended up getting it at pretty much the same time, which isn't ideal, but it's in Ontario here. It's such a mess. I mean, you said, fortunate. That's the keyword. You got to luck into getting a slot. And we did. We took it when we could get it and sort of figured like, we came home. We told the kids like, hey, you guys might be on your own for the next little while. Mom and dad might have a rough time. So far, so good. Both of us are pretty much

100%. Maybe a little stiff, a little bit of a headache, but that's it. That's it. So yeah, like I say, fingers crossed. Check back with me in a day and maybe it'll be a different story. But so far. It was a great experience. Yeah, that's great. It's great to hear. So now let's start talking about the hockey from the week. And I got to tell you, Sean, that game on Sunday night, I know that there were some people that were like, oh my gosh, this is like losing to the Zamboni driver. You got to use that voice too, right? Like, that's a bang on impression. Yeah. It was 4-1, all that, okay? But let's remove the fact that the Maple Leafs were involved in this equation. Let's give a little bit of love to the Vancouver Canucks.

I got to tell you, Sean, there was a point last week, and I think you and I were doing the podcast, we're like, man, why are they coming back to play? This is pointless. And they've come back, they've won two games. And as you start to look at Dom Luce Chichen and some of these other people, as they have their playoff probabilities, Vancouver Canucks aren't done.

There's a faint pulse of a playoff heartbeat going for the Vancouver Canucks. They've won two in a row. They got four in a row coming up against Ottawa. let's talk about if they can somehow get themselves into relevancy. What are we talking about here in terms of great comeback stories in hockey history here? If the Vancouver Canucks make themselves relevant here down the stretch, Sean. Yeah, it would be a fantastic one. Just purely in terms of the numbers, it would be right up there, top five, top 10.

You know, I probably top five of the cap era at the very least. and you put them alongside. Obviously, we've got to start with the 2019 blues being dead last place and coming all the way back. And not just making the playoffs, but having the Stanley Cup run. The 2015 senators, the one that you and I will remember, the Andrew Hammond second half, was a crazy comeback. The Ducks did something similar to the year after. There have been a few other teams. And this would be comparable to that, maybe not quite.

quite as outrageous as far as the big numbers that they had to climb back from. But it would be in that ballpark. But when you factor in the context, when you look at the circumstances around it, I think this would move up to number one. I mean,

this is the fact that they went through what they went through as a team, that they endured that, and to pull it off with the schedule that they're going to have to play. And that is still what worries me. I mean, I think we all kind of had two worries when we found out the Canucks were coming back above and beyond just, is this even

safe? Is this even the right thing to do? The first was that they were going to come back rusty and just get their doors blown off. And it was going to look like one team playing for the playoffs and one team playing an exhibition game. We didn't get that at all. I mean, you can say whatever you want to say about who had the scoring chances and whose goalies did what in those Leaf games. The Canucks were right there. They were skating stride for stride with these guys and there was a lot of fight left in them. And that was impressive. But man, the schedule down the stretch for these guys is so condensed still. And they've got to play so many games and you just wonder, even now, even having,

haven't watched them twice beat the Leafs in impressive fashion, you just wonder if at some point does the adrenaline, does the initial surge of emotion wear off and you're just left with this horrible grind of a schedule? If they could fight through that and still catch Montreal and get that last spot, that's going to be an all-time great story. And it'll be, you know, you and I talked a few times about. Is there ever such a thing as Canada's team? Is there ever such a thing as a team the whole country roots for?

And the answer is almost always no. But I really feel like if they can pull this off, you've got to be able to get behind it, at least a little bit. I know if you're a Montreal fan, you don't want to lose your spot. If you're a Toronto fan, you don't want to play these guys in the first round after what we just saw. But just as a person, you've got to root for these guys. This would be an amazing story.

Yeah, and I think it's amazing too. It would come 10 years after the Vancouver Canucks were the antithesis of Kansas. at his team, right? Like, in 2011, you go back to that team that went to the cup final, and they had Alex Burroughs and Max Lujois, or not, sorry, not Max LeJois, Maxim LaPierre, and, you know, go through, like, Ryan Kessler and BXA. Like, everybody was diving and they had a punchability. They had a punchability factor that was off the charts, right? Like, you almost felt back because the Siddines were like these classy gentlemen. You're like, I don't think you belong here, but you're there. And now

All time heel team in NHL. Fun to root against team in NHL. They made the Boston Bruins with Brad Marchand seem lovable. Into the baby faces in that series, which is... I know. And then to think that 10 years later,

imagine even the notion of the Vancouver Canucks becoming Canada's team, because I think a lot of people say, if you had to pick one team to cheer for in Canada, it's always Winnipeg, right? Like, nobody has this... Nobody hates Winnipeg. Nobody hates Winnipeg.

It's like geographically, Historically, there's no reason to hate them. But the Vancouver Canucks, and I think what's interesting about the Canucks this year, too, Sean, is there's a real us against the world mentality with that group. With those players, and you know, you've seen it in the reporting from Thomas Drance, you've seen it a little bit in the reporting from Elliott Friedman and others. There's going to be some sort of reckoning with the Vancouver Canucks and management and ownership at the end of this season.

Where the players are going to say, we didn't appreciate being kept in the dark. We didn't appreciate the communication. We didn't appreciate the way we were treated. And right now, Travis Green and those 18 skaters and two goalies every night are saying, it's us against the world. And there's something to be said for that mentality that maybe this isn't an aberration for winning two games. Maybe it's the sign of they could maybe have a little bit of momentum down the stretch. It is.

I mean, that is a, you can roll your eyes at it if you want, but that is one of the great narratives in sports that whole, you know, it's us against the world. And let's be honest, 90% of the time, it's fake. It's manufactured. It's something that either the media drums up or sometimes the fan base or a lot of times it comes internally. The team just sits there and says, it's us against the world. And you're sitting there going, well, no, it's not. But if you believe it, then it gains some power.

You know, in this case, there's some truth to it. And just the circumstances, you know, this is not a normal year. This is, you know, when they say, we look around and it's the 20 guys in this room and that's it. that's all these guys are seeing a lot. You know, you can't go anywhere. You can't do anything. It's the same faces every day. And you're just kind of sitting there going, hey, we were written off.

And look, all of us who were saying maybe they shouldn't come back, maybe they should look at this, maybe they should push it back, you know, a week ago when it was with J.T. Miller making those comments. You know, all of us were coming from a place of we're worried about these guys as people before players. But, yeah, they could absolutely flip that around and say, yeah, man, the whole hockey world didn't even want us to play anymore. We were so out of it.

There wasn't even any point in us playing games. And here we are. Like, you can hear, like, I'm getting pumped up just talking about it because it would be such a great story. And I'm trying not to because we all know, man, they got these four games coming up against the senators. And everybody's going, you win those four games. That's your four games in hand. And you're right back in it. But what have we been talking about all year with the senators?

Yeah. Sickos, right? Like, this would be the ultimate sicko move to come in and just crush this feel good story just as it's getting off the ground. with a couple of classic pesky sin wins that throw the whole thing off the rails. You know, it's funny you mentioned to the term, sometimes people do roll their eyes, right, with the term us against the world.

I think people in the hockey world show on this week were rolling their eyes when the National Hockey League released a statement on Tuesday following a jury in Minnesota, finding that former police officer guilty on multiple counts of the death of George Floyd. And the NHL put out a statement that read simply as follows. While we hope the end of the trial offers a chance for healing,

we remain committed to actively engaging in the movement for equality, and we invite our fans to join us in supporting systemic change. And it's one of those ones where I'm, and I don't, I'm really torn on this whole idea of whether or not corporations and leagues and teams should feel the responsibility of just jumping in on every event like this, right? Like sometimes you'll be scrolling Twitter and it'll be like, Pillsbury and Toaster Strudel stands against racism. You're like, I guess.

Okay. Great. That's awesome. Bagel Bites is against misogyny. Cool. Like, I get it. But I look at this and I almost feel like there's part of me that wishes they didn't say anything. And I understand that if they didn't say anything, we would also.

be criticizing them. But this was a real bland statement from the NHL that I almost feel like maybe you should have, maybe you should have taken a pass. I don't know. Yeah. It wasn't, it certainly wasn't a great statement. I mean, the fact that you were able to read it in 15 seconds or whatever it is, you know, did not mention any names. Just talking about the trial. If you didn't follow the news, you wouldn't even necessarily know what they were referring to. and you compare it to the statements of the other leagues. There is no comparison. And look, this is the same.

It's a similar sort of conversation we would have been having last summer. And it's tough. I had some sympathy to the league. This is not easy. You've got a very wide and diverse fan base in terms of what they want from you in this situation, including I'm sure a lot of fans who don't want to hear anything. You've got fans who are going to object to pretty much anything you say. It's not easy to come up with the messaging.

And I have sympathy for whoever ends up being tasked with that to try to figure out what's the right way to play this. But that said, that doesn't mean that anything goes. It doesn't mean that anything you put out there is acceptable. And this wasn't enough. And, you know, unfortunately, there are certain moments where choosing to say nothing is saying something. And in this case, the NHL chose not to say nothing, but to say next to nothing.

And that's a choice. There's just certain things you don't get the option of sitting out as much as the corporate PR side of things would probably prefer that. It's just not an option. So again, I'm not going to trash the NHL for what they put out there. But I was disappointed.

I would have liked to have seen something better. I think that virtually every other league out there did something better. And again, you know, this is, it's kind of similar to what we saw with the NHL last summer, always seeming to follow, never leading, and always seeming as if they're trying to do the minimal amount that they can get away with. And, you know, at some point, that in itself is making a statement, even if it's not the one that you might intend. As the league put that statement out, and again, they got criticized. What do you think the league office reaction was once they saw the Las Vegas Raiders tweet? And all of the attention of the sports world kind of went towards them, right?

Yeah, it did. It took some of the heat off. And again, this is the stuff is not easy. And then we should point out, some of the NHL teams put out much stronger statements that I thought were, you know, did a far better job. And then, yeah, the Raiders put out that strange thing, which initially raised a lot of eyebrows. Now, I guess apparently George Foley's brother has since said that he appreciated it and that, you know, he wasn't bothered by it. So, you know, you got to take that context into it too. But yeah, this is, you know, one of those things where, again, I have sympathy for some of these leagues and these teams because there's, there are a lot of people who, and perhaps rightly so, are just.

You're never going to please everyone. And you're going to take shots from one corner or another no matter what happens. But, yeah, that Raiders statement was certainly a strange one and maybe did take some of the initial heat off of the NHL doing something that was very bland, but not strange to the same level as what they did. Yeah, you know, and I think what happens to it's social media, I think there's a rush to judge the NHL. or the Raiders and then quote, tweet them and mock them. Okay? Yeah. What I wish is, why isn't there a rush to educate people?

Why is there always a rush to, you know, embarrass people or point? Where's the rush to educate people? That's my point. And especially with the Mark Davis thing with the Raiders, I got some time for that. Like the, like it was, it was misguided maybe. But let's understand. Let's not criticize somebody who was trying to do the right thing, but didn't do it right, didn't do it correctly, maybe.

Like, I guess that's part of my issues that sometimes we just race to, to dunk on people instead of racing to just kind of work with them a little bit. And work with them and also, you know what, like at some point, and you could say this for a whole lot of issues, at some point you've got to convince some people on the other side. And obviously, when you look at something like George Floyd, you're saying like what even is the other side. But there's, you know, at some point, you've got to convince some people who maybe don't agree with you 100% on every issue. And the way to do that is not to dunk on everyone.

You know, and when you, when you dunk, yeah, you're going to get lots of retweets and lots of applause and pats on the back from the people who are already on your side. But I guess the question is, do you have enough people on your side to affect the sort of change in the world you want to see? and if not, you've got to bring some more people in and maybe think more about how do I do that instead of how do I get that kind of short-term endorphin rush of bumping my cloud up by having some monster dunk on somebody who's already been dunked on a thousand times

by everybody else. I'd like to see some more thought put into that. Obviously, an issue like this, the emotions are raw for a lot of people. Yeah. You're not going to necessarily sit down and strategically think through if you're reacting in anger, the anger is probably justified.

But you're right. At some point, there has to be a little bit more than that where you think and go, okay, how do we make sure that this translates to actual change and we make the world a better place? And not just one where we're all screaming at each other all the time. Yeah. Otherwise, you just live in an echo chamber and, you know, and I'll get out of the bubble. Exactly. All right.

So to the National Hockey League general managers meetings, we go, Sean. First of all, I need to know, because now usually you do a Friday, your calling comes out, right? Are we getting some sort of secret transcript of the latest NHL general managers meetings coming out on Friday? We're not. And part of the reason for that, I gave the spies the week off, but the part of it is that there wasn't really a ton of news coming out of this. This is, and understandably so, right? This is usually the time of year where in true NHL fashion, right after the trade deadline, that's when you get all the GMs together in a room and have them all hang out and golf together for a few days. Obviously, under the

circumstances this year, not doing that. The Zoom meeting apparently went a lot quicker and not a lot of big news coming out of it, but there's a couple things. There are a few discussions here and there. Pierre LeBrun had the scoop, as always, and he reported. at that out yesterday. And, you know, there was there was some interesting stuff coming out of it at least. Yeah. And, you know, one of those things is Yarmalkele, who, by the way, Yarmou was a guest of the Athletic Hockey Show podcast, the two-man Advantage edition with Pierre LeBron, Scott Burnside.

So check that out if you haven't listened to it. And Yarmot, Sean, apparently was the one who suggested, what if we altered the rules for Pock Over Glass? And I know a lot of people have strong feelings. I think you're part of that group that might have some strong opinions and feelings on puck over glass. Yarmal Kekaline and general manager of the blue jackets floated the idea of what if for puck over glass, the only way you get penalized is if you determine that the player had full control of the puck, right? Like that was Yarmal was like, you know, I don't want one of these things where somebody's just kind of sweeping at it or something.

but if you have full control of the puck and clear it over the glass without it hitting the glass or anything else, at that point it should be a penalty. Do you think that that will help? Or again, we're just going down the road of you're taking what should, was supposed to be a black and white rule and now adding that big gray area to it. No, you know, I think on its own, I think that's a good suggestion. You don't see it often, but every down and then, you'll see a defenseman just swing a stick and a puck. It's three feet in the air.

and it launches it into the same, well, that's, I mean, that's not intentional. There's, there's no intention here. And this is the thing about this rule that, that bothers so many people. It's when you get the clearly unintentional plays that result in a penalty. Again, this is one of those things where, in true NHL fashion, they take something that needs a big fix and they argue over the little tiny fix. and it's the sort of thing where even if you think the little tiny fix would make it better, you're kind of sitting there going, why don't you think a little bit bigger? And then the fact that apparently this got shot down,

it gives you a sense of where we're headed as far as changing this rule, which is that it doesn't sound like there's much hope of that happening. I'm in the camp where I say you just treat it like icing. Treat it like icing. It makes no sense to explain to a new fan that if, you, you're in your own zone and you shoot the puck over there. It's a two-minute penalty. But if you shoot it down the ice, that's not allowed, but it's not a penalty,

but you kind of get penalized, but you don't go to the penalty box. And oh, by the way, if you then shoot it into the bench, that's totally fine. Nothing happens at all. Any puck that's either shot down the ice or into the stands, whether it hits the glass or not, whether anything, should just be face off in your own zone. No line change for the other team and off you go. Treat it all the same, make it consistent.

To me, that makes sense. If you still want to have a delay a game rule for anyone who you feel did it intentionally, like the rule used to be, keep that. You know, treat it like icing. Otherwise, that's the way I would do it. But there doesn't seem to be an appetite for that. People seem to like how the rule works, and certainly the GM seem to like it. I'm okay with that.

I've come down off the ledge a little bit on this rule. Years ago in the Grantland days, I wrote and I said that this was the worst rule in all sports. I've walked that back a little bit. I still don't like the rule, but I do see why some people like it. The one thing I will say when it comes to puck over glass, whether you like it, whether you hate it. Please don't tell me that the reason you like this rule is because it's black and white and it's called the same every time and there's no, you know, it's no, it's objective and that's it, automatic call. Because if that's the case, I don't know why I got to watch all four officials huddle up for five minutes a couple of times a week to figure out triangulate where

a puck went out or whether it clipped a molecule of the glass on the way out, that's not black and white to me. We're going to have these big huddles where we've got to figure out whether the rule actually applies, then don't tell me it's black and white and gets called the same way every time. Okay, let me ask you this question. Okay, here's my, here's my proposal for puck over glass. You tell me if this is a terrible idea or maybe something we can work with. Every team, gets one free get out of jail card. Like you get to have one puck over glass every game. The minute you have a second, now it's penalized.

Yeah, I mean, that's not bad. It's not bad, right? There's some logic there. That curbs the idea that you're doing it intentionally. But it also allows for one miscue, mistake, honest, I couldn't believe. Okay, so that's my suggestion. What, every game you get one freebie, the minute, that's checked off. Now you're in penalty territory.

You know, I still like my version of treat it like icing, but your version would certainly, I think, be an improvement over what we got. And look, I know the thing, anytime you bring this up, people say, well, then the defenseman's just going to shoot the puck into the stands every time there's any pressure. And, you know, first of all, you can still call that a penalty. Every other, I don't think people realize this because there's so many puck over the glass, there's, a whole page of delay of game penalties in the rulebook. And they involve all sorts of different things. And every single one of them has the referee have to decide, is it intentional or not? Pushing the net off is it delay a game penalty if it's done intentionally.

Now, imagine if every time the net got knocked off, that was an automatic penalty no matter what, even if a guy tripped over his own skates and went head first into it. It would be ridiculous. But that's kind of what we're doing here. You can still call the ones that look intentional. The thing that, and I'd love to hear your view on this, because any time I go down this road arguing about this rule, I always reach this dead end. And the dead end is, it feels like there's a certain segment of fans who remember that before this rule, pox were getting shot out all the time. There was just constant pox being flipped out over the glass.

And then there's other fans like me who have virtually no memory of that ever happening. And you know me. I complain about the refs a lot. I remember, man, I could tell you stuff that happened in 1995 that I'm still upset about. So if there was, if that was happening, I'm pretty sure I would have remembered it. And yet there are people out there who absolutely will swear to you that there was an epidemic of this stuff happening before they put the rule in. Do you remember that? No, I'm with you.

I don't, it's just like the offside rule where they changed it. And it was like, well, there was the one Matt Douchain. I think there was another one, Tampa and Montreal in the playoffs. But there was like two and people like, we got to crack down on this. I'm like, well, now you've created a bigger problem. I'm with you on this puck. I don't remember growing up and watching games be like, oh, man, Eric Desjardin, he did it again. He cleared the puck over the glass.

Like, I don't remember. I have no recollection of this. You know, you would think it would have been happening all the time to like Gretzky's oilers. Like, oh, the puck's in our zone. Flip it out of there. Ha, ha. No penalty. Yeah.

But it would have been a penalty because we had. common sense delay a game back then if it was intentional. I don't remember it happening. But anytime I bring it up, I talk to people who are absolutely adamant that it happened, not just a little bit, but all the time. And then it stopped doing this. And it's one of those things where you're just like, okay, I guess we just remember it differently. But it's very strange to me.

Yeah. We'd love to hear from our listeners. If you're old enough and you remember hockey from like the 80s, 90s, early 2000s, tell us did we miss something here and was there an epidemic? Give me some examples. Yes. Tell me a game. I will go back and check the game on YouTube and go, oh yeah, you're right.

That did happen and I missed it. But people are just adamant that it was all over the place and I can't find it. All right, Sean. You know, usually when we bring Jesse Granger in, it's part of our segment that is brought to you by BetMGM, which is the exclusive betting partner with us here at the Athletic. but today we're not going to be talking about favorites and underdogs and lines and things like that. Jesse Granger covers the Vegas Golden Knights for us. And I got to tell you, Jesse, on Wednesday, when I started to see the quotes from Robin Leonard enter my timeline, I thought, wow, this is something. So I know that that consumed your day.

That's going to consume this conversation. Let me start by asking you. And I love Robin. I covered him when he was, you know, in Ottawa. He's a, he's a, you know, really outspoken guy. at what point in that Zoom conversation or that media availability on Wednesday, did you realize, wow, we got ourselves a story here? Well, so it started with Robin taking questions and he only took a couple questions. And then once the questions were over, he kind of paused.

And usually that's when the team says, thanks, thanks, Robin. You can get up and leave. But no, he paused. And we all thought, like, especially knowing Robin. And like you said, he is very outspoken. he is what I wish more athletes were in that he just speaks what's on his mind whenever it comes to his mind. And we could kind of tell that he had something else on his mind that day. And he unprompted with no questions about it just started. He basically said, I feel the need to say this.

And Robin is a guy who, as you mentioned, has been outspoken for years. And I think because of that, he's earned the reputation as that guy. And I think because of that, a lot of players reach out to him. So I think the words everyone saw Robin Lennar say yesterday were not his own. I mean, they are his own, but he's speaking for more than just himself. And he went on to say that he isn't thrilled with the way the NHL has handled the mental health aspect of this entire COVID season and all these COVID protocols. And he was under the impression very strongly, clearly by not. not only the way he said things, but the conviction he said them with. And he basically said that he was under the impression that he and his teammates would have the COVID protocols that they've been under for about a year now, slightly relaxed, not majorly relaxed, just slightly relaxed if they were to get 85% of the team vaccinated.

And then once the team did get 85% vaccinated, which the Golden Knights are now, those promises from the league, were not fulfilled, according to Robin Lennar. Obviously, the league released a statement shortly after saying that those promises were never made. So there is some disconnect in that somewhere between the league and the Players Association and the Golden Knights and Robin Lennar. But he clearly felt very strongly about him. Yeah.

I'm curious to pick, just to kind of keep this conversation going, I think what happens, guys, is a lot of fans will look at the comments from a millionaire athlete and say, well, you know what, suck it up, man. You're getting millions of dollars during the pandemic. I've lost my job during COVID or I've had work reduced. And I think what's really important for people to understand is stuff can be two things. Okay.

It's not either or. Like Robin Leonard and millionaire athletes can be suffering and people who are, you know, making far less can also be suffering. It's not either or. And I think sometimes there's a lack of empathy for athletes because you see the zeros and their paycheck and you feel like they should be happy with the way it is. And I'm really happy that Robin has been arguably the most outspoken person on mental health in the hockey world in the last few years.

I'm happy he's shining a light on this because I do not believe Robin Leonard's the only player who feels this way. I think you guys would agree that when you start to kind of, and hockey players are robots right there. They're just, hey, listen, pucks in deep, play 110%. But when you get the guys that aren't robots like Robin, now you're getting somewhere. where now you're starting to get a better picture of how things are, right guys? And sometimes it needs to be said.

I mean, we just talked about the Canucks. J.T. Miller saying what he said changed the NHL schedule. And maybe there's a bit of a J.T. Miller effect here where Robin Leonard looks at that. And maybe, like you said, there's other players saying, hey, we should speak up on this. And you're absolutely right. I mean, there's this idea that, oh, you're a millionaire. you don't get to say that things have been tough on you. I mean, the conversations that we've been having collectively about mental health over the last

couple of years, if you have been paying any attention, you know that somebody having a big paycheck does not mean that they're immune from this stuff. And, you know, the last year in a bit, it's been brutal on everyone. And it doesn't have to be a competition where you get to say, hey, it's been harder on me so nobody else. No, you know what? It's been hard on everyone. And yeah, to different degrees.

But for Robin Leonard to stand up and say, hey, we feel like we were misled on this. And it doesn't have to be a, you know, one side is telling the truth and the other side is lying. There can be misunderstandings. There can be things that were represented as possibilities. And that's possible. I think the one place that he does deserve the criticism is when he compared it to prison. I think that was the one piece where it kind of felt like, okay, there, you're overshooting the runway a little bit. And that was the moment where I think for at least some fans and some people listening, he kind of lost them.

But he went back. And afterwards, and, you know, Jesse, you can speak to this. He made some further statements on Twitter to clarify what it is he meant. And I think he expressed regret that he had used that specific work. Not only did he jump right on Twitter and express that, but he called me afterwards. And I spoke with Robin for about 30 minutes after a short time after that press conference because he wanted to clarify that statement. And he mentioned the painting on the back of his mask and said that it. So it was a 10 minute press conference and he was trying to fit a lot into it.

And I think he's not a professional public speaker. As often as he does stick up for people in these types of things, he basically admitted. I made a mistake with the wording on that. I shouldn't have compared it to prison. And he said that I use that as a metaphor quite a bit with my mental health. And he mentioned the painting on the back of his mask. It's an eye, it's like an eye socket with prison bars on it with a hand reaching through. And he said, with bipolar, with depression, with anxiety, the things that Robin Lennar deals with,

at times it can feel like you're inside a prison in your own mind. And if he would have said it like that, I don't think anyone would have had a problem with it. but the way he initially said it obviously created. People weren't thrilled with that and understandably. So he did say that. And I'm glad you guys brought up the fact that these athletes can struggle to. And so I've spoken with Robin quite a bit over the last year and with Eric Cousin, who runs the same here global mental health organization that Robin has done so much work with.

And they always say, like, you don't either have mental health issues or not have mental health issues. everyone has deals with things like this. Everyone does. And some people deal with really difficult stuff and some people deal with not so difficult stuff. But just because it's not the most difficult thing anyone's ever dealt with doesn't mean it's not difficult for that person in that moment. And I think this is another, it's not the exact same thing, but the issues the NHL players are dealing with right now just because they aren't. Yeah, there's frontline workers out there who are going through much harder times than the NHL players. But that doesn't mean we can't see that the NHL players are having a hard time.

And these NHL players are going through a lot. It's not like Robin Leonard is not out here complaining for no reason at all. These guys have been going from the rink to their house, back to the rink, back to their house. And only that for an entire calendar year. And these guys are under intense amounts of pressure. I mean, yes, being an NHL player suite. But at the same time, you also have an incredible amount of stress and pressure to perform

on a nightly basis, your livelihood depends on it. And these guys have a lot of releases. On a long road trip that's packed with pressure, they have a lot of releases going out to dinner with the guys, things like that, take your mind away from those pressures. And this year, for an entire year, going all the way back to the bubble in Edmonton and Toronto, they haven't had those.

And this isn't just Robin Leonard. He was speaking for players on the Golden Knights. He was speaking for players around the league. And I spoke with a prominent agent yesterday who told me he believes there is a pronounced increase of instances of anxiety and depression amongst players across the league and that some of the players have mentioned their mental health deteriorates when they're on long road trips. And his quote was, I've heard players say they're not even enjoying this season. They just want to get through it.

They just want this season to be over with. Yeah. And they're NHL players, right? So they can't say that now because you've got to be tough. Right. You've got to, like Ian said, you've got to be the robot. but I really think just as fans, we should prepare ourselves. We're going to hear some stuff in the years to come.

And, you know, hopefully at some point soon, this will all feel like it was behind us. But I think you're going to, for years to come, you'll hear players who were part of this season say, I hated that year. That was the worst year of my life. I wish we hadn't played. In hindsight, you know, yeah, did we make a lot of money? Sure. Was it the right business decision? Sure.

I wish we hadn't played. My heart wasn't in it. I didn't have my best season. I barely remember some of the stuff that happened. It sucked and I wish we hadn't done it. I think we're going to hear that from a lot of guys. And I think there's probably a lot of guys who would like to say it right now if they felt like they weren't going against some form of hockey culture by expressing any of that.

You know, the thing I find fascinating about the road trips this year. And you guys know this. The players are constantly being tested, right? Like rapid testing multiple times, every day they're getting tested. What I've never understood was the restrictions put on them within the team hotel. Like I've always thought, why couldn't they get together and play cards in somebody's room? Like you're watching them on the ice. Somebody scores a goal and they all jump in together.

You see mouthguards hanging out. You see them on the bench. You're telling me that when they get back to the Ritz Carlton or the Weston or wherever they're staying in whatever city, that the only thing they can do, single file in, go to your room. You can go to the meal room, grab a to go meal, get to your room.

Like, where's the logic in that? Like, these guys are spending all this time together everywhere else. And the one time that they're maybe craving some human contact and conversation and a game of cards or having a dinner together and busting each other, you know, like players love to do. And you're telling them they can't do that.

That's where the frustration comes in, right? Right. And I'm glad you brought that up because I think during the press conference, Robin mentioned relaxed restrictions after vaccination. And he said, there were a lot of guys who were on the fence about getting the vaccine. And the only reason we got the vaccine is because we were told, well, if you get 85% of you guys to do it, you can get these relaxed restrictions. So when I talked to him on the phone, I asked him, can you tell me what specifically you guys were hoping for that you didn't get? And they weren't crazy restrictions that they were hoping to get lifted. They want.

So right now they're not allowed to have players over to their homes when they're at home to have dinner. And they were hoping that once players are vaccinated, the vaccinated players can get together at their homes and have dinner together. They were hoping that they could see each other in the hotel rooms, like you mentioned, Ian. And they were hoping for slightly more relaxed testing. These guys have gone through a lot of testing multiple times a day, every day. and they were hoping that the vaccinated guys wouldn't be tested quite as much. Not that they wouldn't be tested at all, but those were basically the things that, and that's all coming from the NBA.

The NBA has a model that once teams are vaccinated, that's what it goes to. And I think that's the literature that a lot of these players saw and were expecting when they were vaccinated. But at the same time, I understand why, like the NHL and the NHLPA are coming out very strongly and saying we're not lifting restrictions. I understand why they're saying that also. So I just don't, the communication wasn't good enough. That's, to me, that's the, the, what the bottom line is. This is the communication between Robin Lennar and the team and the, the NHLPA and the

NHL at some point, the communication wasn't good enough. No, and I'm always a believer. I don't know where you guys come down on this. I'm a believer that players are not liars. Okay. I believe that leagues are liars. I believe that teams lie. I believe executives lie.

I do not believe, for the most part, players lie. Like, if you're asking me who I believe in this Robin Leonard versus the league, I'll be on Robin Leonard's side in terms of he probably felt like he was told these. You think Robin Leonard just made this up that if 85% of our guys were vaccinated, we would, like, these restrictions would be relaxed. I don't think he's making stuff up. It seems like a crazy thing to make up. Yeah, and he's not making it up.

But like I say, that doesn't necessarily mean that the NHL is lying. It doesn't mean that the NHL said we will do this and then backtracked and lied about it. It could be as simple as at some point in the process, the NHL said, we will look at doing this. And some of the players heard that and thought, okay, that sounds like a commitment. And they see other leagues doing it. And they go, okay, we're going to follow. And the league says, well, it's like, we never said for sure. We said, you know, we said we would look at it and we're still looking at it.

But at this point, we're not moving forward. and you feel like at that point, were you lied to? No, were you misled? Yeah, maybe. That might be the right word to use. And that's still going to lead to some bad feelings in terms of the players.

But I do agree with you. This isn't something where Robin Leonard just sat there and said, you know what, I'm going to make something off and say that in front of the media and in front of the cameras just to put pressure on the league. That's typically not how these guys think. Yeah. And another aspect that Robin Lennar was bothered by is he said that part of the reasoning he was given from the NHLPPA when he called on Tuesday was that the NHL didn't want to relax restrictions.

And the NHL has denied this. But he said the NHL didn't want to relax restrictions until all 31 teams could relax the restrictions because they didn't want to give a competitive edge. And that is what basically sent Robin Liner over the edge and made him want to make this public. And that part of it, whether the promises were made or not, I completely agree with Robin on that part of it. Approaching this in a sense of, well, if all the teams can't relax them, all the players' mental health must suffer. Like, you're putting competitive edge over the mental. This isn't practice time. This is guys being able to be human beings.

to me, if one team can relax the restrictions and make those guys' lives a little better for the next couple months, do it. We shouldn't be determining, like, I don't think this plays a factor in who's going to win the Stanley Cup. I think these guys are humans. And if players can have restrictions safely and it's 100% by the doctors and the scientists, they believe that they can safely relax the restrictions, then those teams should be able to relax the restrictions. Absolutely. I mean, let's say, we're talking about the Canadian teams here because, Canada's behind on the vaccines compared to the United States.

You're right. I mean, this is, I'm all for competitive balance as best you can. But, you know, if I'm having a tough time, forcing you two guys to have tough times too doesn't make it any better for me. So let's, if that is the reasoning, and again, the NHL has said that that wasn't the case. If that is the reasoning, drop that. just let's make things as when it comes to the mental health of the players, let's make it as good as it can get for everywhere that we can. And if that means that some have it better than others, that's life. It's better than the alternative if the alternative is everyone has to say

at the lowest common denominator. Yeah. Listen, that is well said. Jesse, we'll leave it there. And this was, we always do appreciate your insight on lines and over, under, but this I think was much more topical today. But thanks for doing this. We appreciate you taking the time every week. And we'll get you again next week. Thanks for having me, guys. Thanks, Jesse. All right. That was a, boy, that was a really interesting conversation with Jesse Granger. Because I think there's certainly, like you said, Sean, in that segment, in a year or two from now, I would love to be the person. Someone's going to write a deep dive on this year that happened, the pandemic year and some of the stories that have come out of players and the challenges they've had.

And I think Robin Leonard kind of gave us a peek behind the curtain here this week. And I'll tell you right now, when it happens, in three years, when you hear how hard this was on the players, don't sit there and say, oh, we didn't know. If you don't know, it's because you're trying not to know. Yeah. Listen, let's open up the mailbag here. We've got a couple of emails to get to. Then we'll do some this week in hockey history. A reminder, anytime you want to reach us, we would love to hear from you.

You can drop us a note. The email address is The Athletic Hockey Show at gmail.com. The athletic hockey show at gmail.com. Or we also love voicemails too. Drop us a voicemail. We'll play it on the air and we'll kind of answer your question. That voicemail number, it's 845-4-4-5-84-9. All right.

So to the email we go, Sean. How about this one? And so last week we talked about in this week at hockey history, we brought up the name Frank McCool. And we said, it's sort of the best names in hockey history, right? I'm Frank McCool. Well, guess what? We got an email from Joe McCool. That actually might, first of all, that actually might be a cooler name than Frank McCool.

Hey, what's your, hey, settle down, Joe McCool. And actually, that is my name. That's the sort of thing. You ask somebody, what's your name? And they say, Joe McCool. And you're like, dude, if you don't want to tell me your name, you say you don't want to tell me. Exactly. I love that. Joe McCool is a great name. So Joe writes in, hey, listening to the podcast this week, I love the Frank McCool discussion. And I come from a family of McCool's, and we have our own fantasy league where only the McCools are allowed to play. There's five of us. We've been doing this for years. And the winner each year receives the Frank McCool Memorial Trophy, currently in the possession of my uncle Louis McCool, who is a first time winner. Frank McCool lives on, guys. P.S. the other trophy winners, Bill McCool, Scott McCool, and Mark McCool.

You know what? All I've got to say on this is if the name of this pool isn't McCool in the gang, then they're doing something wrong. That's all they can think of, McCool in the gang. Also, last week we talked about father's son combinations, right, in terms of, you know, playing games together and who is the best father's son. combo. This on the heels of Nick Falino being traded to Toronto. Gord from Calgary writes in and says, hey guys, some thoughts to share on father-son combos with one team or one franchise. Now, if you don't narrow-mindedly just stick to players, maybe the best father-son

combo ever with a single team, Dick Irvin Sr. and Dick Irvin Jr., the elder coached the Canadians for 15 years, winning three Stanley Cups, the younger, a tremendous broadcaster with the Montreal Canadian. and Hockey Night in Canada for decades. That's a pretty good. That's not pretty good. That's a great submission, right? That's pretty good.

I mean, if we're expanding out to the broadcasters, then that does add. I mean, you could do the Foster Hewitt as well. But that's a pretty good one. That's if we're going to expand the playing field a little bit. That one's not bad. You know, and we also, we should point out on Twitter, you and I received a pretty good one to Pittsburgh Penguins' father's son combo,

Greg Malone and his son, Ryan Malone. You know, Ryan Malone, when the Penguins first turned that thing around with Sid and Gino 2005-0-0-606-0-07, Ryan Malone was a really good power forward for that team. Yep. Yeah, he was real good. So that's a good one. And I got one more that somebody sent me. And again, this is sort of, this wasn't a miss by us because you have to play with the

definition a little bit here because we were saying for one franchise. But somebody reached out and they said, hey, if we're going to, Instead of franchise, if we're going to say one market, how about Minnesota, the Perise, JP Perese with the Minnesota North Stars, and then Zach Perise with the Minnesota Wild, two different franchises. But if you're a hockey fan in Minnesota, you got to watch a father and a son. And JP Parizade was a real good player and had some good years with the stars. And obviously, Zach Perise continues to be a big piece of the wild.

So I thought that was a good one, too. Yeah. All right. Let's wrap up. Speaking of Zach Brise, his old team, the New Jersey Devils. They're part of this week in hockey history. Sean, as April 22nd, 1988.

April 22nd, 1988, the New Jersey Devils went off in a hockey game against a playoff game and against the Washington Capitals. They beat them 10 to 4. And in that game, Devils forward Patrick Sunstrom sets an NHL record with eight, count them eight points in a Stanley Cup playoff game. And it got me thinking, Is Patrick Sundstrom, Sean, the most obscure NHL player who holds a pretty significant record? He's right up there.

I love that. Man, I love that 88 Devils run because we're talking about a record-setting game. That is at best probably the third most memorable thing that happened to the Devils within like a month and a half because you had the John McLean overtime goal to put them in the playoffs. Last game of the year. For the first time in franchise history, huge moment, massive celebration. This is remember back, this is when most over time. time games ended in ties and a tie wasn't going to do it. So they were down to the last gasp.

And then a few weeks after the Sunstrom game, you have the donut incident with Donko Harski and Yellow Sunday and the raincoats and all of this stuff. So the fact that, you know, oh yeah, ho-hum, a guy just throws an eight-point to playoff game in there. That's right up there. I'm going to give you a few others, though, in terms of, in terms of obscure records. The first one is one that I think we even mentioned a few weeks ago, but Tom Bladen holds the NHL record for points by a defenseman. Again, another eight-point game. He's one of only two defensemen. He was the first to have an eight-point game.

And Paul Coffey, some guy you may have heard of, well, also had an eight-point game. But Bobby Orr never did it. Go on down the list of all the other great defensemen. Tom Bladen managed to do it against the Cleveland Barron. so maybe it only barely counts. I'll throw you a couple other ones, though. And this is what I think a lot of fans know because it was reasonably recent. But the NHL record for a shutout streak, not Dominic Hassi.

Is it Brian Boucher? Not Patrick Kwan, not Martin Rode or Brian Boucher. Brian Boucher, that crazy stretch where he had, I think, was five shutouts in a row, almost got a six. The game that he gave up the goal, it was like a seeing-eye point shot that got tipped past him. You would think of all the legendary goaltenders in the Hill history, you know, including some who played in eras where it was very, very hard to score. You think he would be the guy. And then the other one, and this obviously isn't a big record, but the NHL record for a shutout streak at the start of a career. Shutout streak at the start? Because there's no way that you know this. But it's funny because I think of like Patrick Lillim had the great start where he won, whatever. He was the undefeated street to start.

Boy, most can, like, the longest shutout street. So did this goalie have more than one, like, so two shutouts in a row? Well, here's the thing. It's, this is, it's, it's, it's a guy by the name of Matt Hackett. Matt Hackett? I probably never heard of. Jeff Hackett, I've heard of. Yeah, not Jeff Hagg.

Matt Hackett, it was the Sabers. And he had, the record is, it's not a very high rate. It's only like 100 minutes or so. So nobody's ever started a career. with two straight shutouts. And the especially crazy thing about this is Matt Hackett started his career with like 100, 110 minutes of shutout hockey, but never recorded a shutout. Oh, he was like a fill-in.

Because he made his NHL debut coming in with like 10 minutes into a game, finished the shutout, but didn't get credit for it. And then in the next game, gave up a goal very late. So he heads the record for shutout streak to start a career and also without a shutout. Just a couple more. And this one isn't a record, but it's one of my favorites. So I got to throw it out there, especially for younger fans who may not remember this one. The 150 point club, 150 points in a season.

It has been done 17 times, I believe, in NHL history, 16 times, I think. Nine of those by Wayne Gretzky. No big surprise there. Four of them by Mero Lemieux. There's only three seasons in NHL history where someone's had 100. 150 points that wasn't Wayne Gretzky or Merrill Lemieux. One of them was Steve Eiserman, pretty good player, might have heard of him. Another guy was Phil Esposito.

Yeah. He was the first one to do it in the early 70s. He was the first one to get there. And then the last guy to have 150 points. Is it Bernie Nichols? It's Bernie Nichols with the L.A. Kings in Gretzke's, I think first year where, you know, Bernie Nichols was the second line center and just had a season for the ages. You go on down the Yarmory Jagger never did it.

You know, on down the list. Adam Oates came close. Mike Bossy came close. I think Lafonte. Deon, nobody. Lafonte came close. Yeah. But yeah, Bernie Nichols and it had 70 goals too.

That's, and the 70 goal club is very, it's, it's, and Bernie Nichols was a good player. But this is, you know, I'm trying to think of what the modern equivalent of like Bernie Nichols having 150 points is. I mean, who's, who's the current. Bernie Nichols Who's the current Bernie Nichols? That's like I mean it's kind of like a Matthew Shane sort of guy right

where you're like yeah like he's good but he's not going to win the score and he didn't win the scoring title but he had 150 points the thing on Nichols is you look at Gretzky's first year in L.A. and he's dominant

and you think oh Nichols was riding shotgun with Greetsky but he wasn't on his line was he a little bit of power play time but they were both centers it was more like I guess everybody was so focused on Stop and Gretzky.

So that was pretty crazy. And I'll close with the last one. And this is, you know, again, not exactly a huge record. But I'll be impressed if you can get it. The single season assist record for a left wing. Now, I'll throw out some names that it's not. Okay, you know what? Okay.

Now, Matt's Nazland was in the mix at one point. You know what? That's a good poll because Matt's Nazland held the record at one point. Matt's Nazland. Had a 43 goal, 67 assist season. I love that I brought out the mid-80s-Habs fan. That's, yeah. Don't even start with Ryan.

It's not the record. Don't even start with Ryan Walter. Okay. So, boy, so. I'll give you some of the guys that's not, okay? Not Luke Robitai. It's not Robitai. He had some big ears.

Not Ovechkin. He's not an assist guy. Not Paul Korea. Wait, have we determined if Ovechkin's a left winger or a right winger yet? Yeah, that's true. We're in the hockey writers association. We might need some guys. on that. Not Korea, not Johnny Bucic, not Mark Messier, who was a left winger for several years

at the start of his career, not Michelle Goulet. The number three on the list is Matt to Nazal. Number two is a guy we talked about a few weeks ago, Kevin Stevens, a guy who was just an absolute beast for a period of a few years. So, but the number one guy. Okay, give me a hint here. Give me some teams. 70, 70 assists. He did it with the Boston Bruins. So since Matt's not, and Oates was a cent, you know what? You don't go have a shady 100 point season. Here it is.

Joe Juno. Joey Juno. Is it Joe Juno? Oh my gosh. 32 goals in 70 assists. Was he a center or no? He wasn't a center? No, he was a winger.

In fact, he was the winger on that Cam Neely Adam Oates line. And so he was, I imagine if we went and looked at the record, we probably see a lot of secondary assists. But yeah, Joey Juno is the only left winger in NHL history to hit the 70 assist mark. We always talk about records that'll never be broken.

That to me always stands as one of the most breakable NHL records. And by the way, Artemi Panarin was on pace to break it last year. He had 63 assists through 69 games. So if that, if we had played out the full season,

he may have broken that record. But yeah, for now, 27 years ago. counting, Joey Juno, the pride of Alaska. Wasn't he from Alaska? Yeah. Okay. So with apologies to Scott Gomez. He's, uh, yeah. Alaska's best player. So, okay, let me, let me throw it a couple other, uh, most goals in a game by a defenseman. That's, uh, uh, Turnbull. Yeah. That's pretty randau, right? Like, the only five goal game. Yeah. Again, you know, you would think coffee, uh, dawn down the, or some of the guys with just those

amazing shots you would you would think but but no okay and then now just to kind of wrap this up so Patrick Sunstrom has eight points in a game playoff game for the devils mark johnson had seven points in that game how do you think he feels is he like is he like the buzz aldron where it's like yeah guys remember me like he had seven points and you don't even think about him right just an afterthought nobody's even yeah nobody even knows he was on the team that's rough yeah okay and that's up. Here's my other thing, and I'm just going to pull it up because I don't have it in front me, and I want to make sure I'm accurate on this. Because, like, again, we think Patrick Sundstrom is a pretty, what's the word? Like, you know, pretty obscure guy, right? Pretty random. He's a good player,

but he's not a guy you would think is. Right. But did you know this? It is age 22 seasons. So his second year in the NHL with the Vancouver Connects, Patrick Sunström had 91 points. At the age of 22, I feel like in the history of the NHL, guys that I didn't know had a 90-point season, Patrick Sunsharp, I had no idea until we did this show today. And I wanted to do a little research on him to make sure, you know, I think he's like on a 60-point guy. He had 90 points as a 22-year-old. Like that's, yeah, I, that would, you could go down a rabbit hole with especially the 70s and the 80s on guys like that. I imagine where you'd be like, wait a second, this dude, Ray Shepard had 50 goals. Are you kidding me?

But yeah, he would be up there. That's, wow, I imagine if you would go back and you bought stock and Patrick Sunstrom at that point. We got to close up, by the way, just because I know people are probably yelling at the, if you're talking eight-point games, the other classic one is the only eight-point game of the 2000s. Yeah. Connor McDavid, no. No, no. No, no. Not Ovegeton.

Sam Cognier, of course. Why not? Yeah, unbelievable. And that was a, boy, that was a regular season game. Like, it's funny because there's been a couple of games this year where Drysidl and McDavid have had like five points in the second period and people are like, alert, alert, Sittler alert. And it's like, actually, why don't we just start with a Sam Gagne alert for the Oilers and then go from there, right?

I mean, we just, we got to get Mika Zabanajia to play against the Flyers more if we want to see these records. Oh, man. Because he's coming close. All right. Hey, listen, this was a ton of fun. Sean, thanks for doing this. Have a great weekend, and we'll do this again next week.

Right on. Talk then. All right. A reminder, everybody. I mentioned this earlier in the show, but Yarmou Keckleine, the general manager of the Columbus Blue Jackets. He was a guest of the two-man Advantage Edition of the Athletic Hockey Show with Scott Burnside, Pierre LeBron, that episode available for you to download. Craig Custin's has former NHL goalie and NHL analyst Kevin Weeks as part of the full 60 this week,

and our pal Mike Russo on the Straight from the Source podcast, has Alex Tangay of the Minnesota Wild. That's his guest. So listen, we love to hear from you if you want to weigh in on anything we talked about today, Robin Lennar, some of these obscure records, anything like that, puck over glass, drop us in email. Again, it's the athletic hockey show at gmail.com or the voicemail. It's 845-4-4-5-8459.

If you're not a subscriber, you can join us at theathletic.com slash hockey show. Thank you.