The Athletic Hockey Show - Canucks stun Maple Leafs in return to play, Dom Luszczyszyn talks trade deadline fallout, Multiple Choice Madness, and more

Episode Date: April 19, 2021

First, Ian and Hailey discuss the Vancouver Canucks’ 3-2 win over the Toronto Maple Leafs on Sunday night in their return to play after a devastating COVID-19 outbreak canceled a string of their scheduled games, the possibility of playoff bubbles taking place in the United States this season, rather than in Canada like last season, and Ian getting himself into hot water with Ottawa Senators fans for tweeting he’d be “cool with” the Toronto Maple Leafs winning the Stanley Cup.Then, The Athletic’s Dom Luszczyszyn joins the show to give his thoughts on this year’s NHL trade deadline, including Taylor Hall’s early impact with the Bruins, Nick Foligno’s fit in Toronto, how much the Caps gave up to acquire Anthony Mantha, and much more.Plus, Ian, Hailey, and Dom run through a series of Multiple Choice Madness questions to close out the show.You can sign up for an annual subscription to The Athletic for just $3.99 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back. It's another edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. Once again, I'm Ian Mendez, alongside Haley Salvia. And ahead on this episode of the podcast, we'll look at the unbelievable chain of events surrounding the Vancouver Canucks, from being in COVID protocol to pushing back against the league to finally returning to the ice and stunning the Toronto Maple Leafs on Sunday night. Our numbers and analytics guru, Dom Luce Chichen, drops by for a little Dom and Dumb and Dumber segment, where we look at some of the winners and losers from trade deadline. Dom's going to stick around for multiple choice madness as well,

looking at what might be the most intriguing first round matchup in the Stanley Cup playoffs and whether or not Patrick Marlowe now has an automatic ticket to the Hall of Fame. Haley, it's a second straight episode where we're doing things a little bit differently on the athletic hockey show. Last week, we were live during trade deadline. This time it's a late night closing in on midnight eastern time. edition of the show because we just want to sink our teeth into that Leafs and Canucks game on Sunday night. But you at least have the benefit of being two hours behind. Yeah, it's not

almost midnight here. That's the good part about being on Mountain Time. And, you know, I actually spoke with our friend and former colleague, Graham Creach, earlier this morning. That's the one thing about being on mountain time. I know it's an aside, but being on mountain and doing radio on Eastern time, it's always like, hey, could you come on the show about 10 a.m. Eastern? I'm like, oh, 8 a.m. Sure, just for you, Graham. But that was one of the things he was saying is how great is sports on mountain time? Because I don't have to stay up late for anything. The flames played at 4 p.m. local time here the other day. It was a beautiful, wonderful thing. So that's the one, I mean, there's lots of great things about Calgary, but that's probably my favorite is

this is a great sports watching time zone. So I don't have to worry about it being late right now. But typically when we record, it's much earlier for me. So this is my one day where I'm in a better time situation than you. Well, I'll tell you what, you know Vancouver Connects fans get super sour about 4 p.m. local time starts on the weekend against the Toronto Maple Leafs. Like historically, that's been something that just agitates them. Not feeling so agitated on Sunday. They play a 4 o'clock local time start game. Haley, I'm going to go ahead and say that when we look back at the end of the season

and we look back and say, like, what are the most memorable moments from the regular season? The night the Vancouver Canucks came back from being ravaged from COVID, Braden Holpe stood on his head and Bo Horvatt delivered a couple of goals. This is going to be one of the signature games, most memorable moments of the restarted pandemic shortened NHL season, right? Yeah, it was huge. I mean, just the story of post-dedline,

it's all been about the Vancouver Canucks, you know, from the outbreak that happened, you know, to the reports of the varying levels of health. You know, it was, I think there was a point where, you know, we were seeing lots of reports of, you know, and I did see Quinn Hughes come out and say that he doesn't know where the report came out. He was not on an IV. So that's good to know that he was not hooked up to an IV. But, you know, there was a ton of reports about the health of these players and then, you know, the expected return and then, you know, the J.T. Miller coming to talk and then

coming back to play. There's, I don't believe there's any players left on the COVID protocol list for the Vancouver Canucks right now, but there still were several players who were not cleared to play. They just weren't ready to get back into the lineup yet. They weren't on the protocol list anymore. And those are, you know, there were some regulars, Tyler Mott, Jake Furtan, Nate Schmidt, Thatcher Demco, you know, they're off the list, but they weren't ready to play yet. So this was a Canucks team who's been through so much in the last three weeks. They don't even have their full roster. I think it was eight regulars that weren't there. And then they come and they beat the number one team in the division after everything.

And it was the way that they want it too, because I think, you know, this isn't a game that the Leafs went easy on them. Like the Leafs controlled puck possession. The Leafs, you know, were, they were controlling the game in Vancouver just, I hate, I don't hate it. I always laugh when people say gutsy effort because it's just one of those kind of throwaway terms. But I don't how else we can describe it. Like that was a real gutsy, really just good, like, dig your heels in win this hockey game. And you could tell that they wanted it.

And I mean, I've got to say it's the biggest story right now, for sure. Yeah. And I think it's the Braden Holpsey show, right? If Holpsey doesn't stand on his head and make some of those theatrical saves, we're not having this conversation. Toronto wins five to two. And we're like, well, this is tough break for Vancouver because they got dominated. But I wonder though, does this alter at all, like Vancouver winning this game?

I think a lot of his thought Haley going into the game were like, man, Canucks are going to get pumped. They're going to come back. They're going to go like one in ten down the stretch. Does this alter your expectations for them? Maybe and maybe do you think to yourself, you know what? Maybe what they've been through as a team is going to end up being a galvanizing force, that these guys are going to come together and say, you know what? Hey, let's play for each other.

Let's, it's kind of us against the world. And you could see it this week when J.T. Miller and some of the other players spoke out. The players felt like they needed to say something. And you know that those guys are all pulling on the same rope. I wonder, do we now think, hey, Vancouver Connects, maybe they're going to end this season with a little bit more of a positive note on the ice than maybe we would have thought heading into the weekend. You know, it's a good question, Ian. And I'm just not sure if this was one of those. We've been through a lot.

Let's get this big win together. and it's the moment and they rise to the occasion. I don't know if you're going to be, if you're going to keep tapping into that for the remainder of the season, especially how busy their schedule is going to be, how dragged out it's going to be. I believe the Flames last game of the season was supposed to be against the Canucks on May 6 or 9th.

Now it's May 19th. So it's going to be two weeks longer. But it's going to be really packed in. they have a ton of games left to play in a really, really tight schedule. So I think that what they've been through as a group is going to be great. And I think it's going to bring them together. But I just, the strength of schedule is something I don't know if, if I can look past.

Like it's going to be a grind for these players. So I think it's one that we're just going to have to wait and see. And, you know, I saw that Elliot Friedman reported on. on Saturday last night since it's weird that we're recording on Sunday. Um, you know, he reported last night that, you know, there's probably some fences that need to be mended between the players and the organization as well. So I don't know if that's something that bleeds through it all, impact anything. But I think what we saw today was a group that really wanted to go out and win. And, you know, they could be a refresh. I don't want to say refreshed because it's not like they,

that's not the right word. Because they weren't sitting at home with their legs up, getting ready to play and resting. You know, I think it was great that they had this first game, but I think there's still, there's still players who weren't cleared to play X. They're just not ready to get back into action after everything that happens. So I think with the Kinnock situation, I don't know if I'm in a place where I want to make a bold proclamation that like, this is it. They're going to go on a huge run or, you know, it's going to die off.

I think it's one that we're just going to have to wait and see because there's still just so much that we don't know. And I don't want to, again, with the Quinn Hughes stuff. like people saying he was on an IV and him coming out and saying, don't know where that came from, wasn't on an IV. So I want to be careful with this situation because I, you know, these are people, it's hockey games, but it's their lives and their health and safety too. So I think we're just going to have to wait and see how all this plays out.

Well, I think the Kinnock situation, Haley, really brought the COVID story back to the forefront, the NHL. Yeah. And as we're sitting here a month out of the playoffs, you're hearing a lot of people, saying, if we're doing a playoff bubble, it's going to be in the United States. You want to talk about what a difference a year makes. You go back to last summer and the only way the NHL could pull it off was to come north. And I think there was a lot of us in Canada sitting on a high horse with a look at you.

Thank goodness you had Canada. Yada, yada, yada. Now obviously the shoe is on another foot. That's another discussion for another day. But what I think is important to kind of start to maybe wrap our heads around is the fact that There's a chance that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Montreal, Canadians, Edmonton Oilers, Winnipeg Jets, if those are the four teams that go to the playoffs, that they may be traveling south of the border haley at some point in May to continue in the

Stanley Cup playoffs. It's a remarkable turn of events. Yeah, especially when, like you said, you go back to what happened last summer with the bubble, you know, having it only in Edmonton and Toronto, and then now those teams are going to have to to fly south. And you know what? It's tough because I know for the regular season, the players, you know,

we're adamant. Like, we do not want to be in a bubble. But when you look at all of the changes that have been made to the protocols and the, the recommendation, so there's the, there's the strict rules and there's also further recommendations from the league, the NHLPA, the doctors, etc.

You know, they're not in a bubble, but, you know, it's very regimented. you're not allowed to go out and do much. So I think that if it's a couple more weeks, and I understand it's really difficult. I know that that bubble was really difficult for players, their families. But I think if a bubble is what it takes to keep these players and their families safe, like I wonder how these players whose wives, you know, I think there was pregnant wives who got sick and wives and girlfriends, family members, you know, that's really difficult.

So I do wonder if, you know, that makes the bubble, you know, a little bit more palatable because they saw what happened with this outbreak in Vancouver and saw how families were impacted by and say, you know what, you know, I'm going to keep my family safe. We're going to go. We're going to play this bubble. I'll be home soon. Because at the end of the day, like, this is hockey. But again, we're talking about health and safety here. And I think there was people who were probably quite scared about what happened with Vancouver. And do you really want to have these teams? I don't know. It's a tough one. But I think that it'll be interesting to see what the NHL and the NHLPA discussed because the bubble was so they were saying no. But I mean, again, you look at all the recommendations. You know, the players are even being told like, hey, try not going to the grocery store anymore.

Get that delivered. Yeah. So it's it's really strict right now. So what's the leap from that to a bubble other than you're not with your family? But that's a pretty big one. Yeah. But again, we're going to have to see how that plays out. And I also think it's worth exploring the idea of Canadian teams starting next season on the road.

Or if they go back to the old divisional format, teams like Toronto and Montreal or maybe Ottawa say to the league, we would like to start on the road. Put us in Florida for a week. put us in Tampa, Florida, put us in Buffalo, Detroit, whatever. And if we can push the start, I think it's very, it's painfully clear as we sit here in the middle of April. I do not see, and I'm fairly comfortable in saying this, I do not see a scenario where the NHL season would start on time in October with full attendance in Canada next season. I don't see it.

It's not happening. And you're sitting in Ontario too. So your perspective. Well, listen, I'm in a tight corridor here where Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa, boom, boom, boom. And we're in the middle of this thing, there's no way in five months from now, six months from now. It's like, all right, here we go, 19,800 or whatever, at 20,000 at the Bell Center.

It's not happening. So if I'm Jeff Molson in Montreal or the MLSC group in Toronto or Eugene Melnick in Ottawa, I'm going to say, hey, let's push this to, can we get a lot? home game starting in the middle of November, the end of November, December, they just need more runway here. And I wouldn't be shocked if we're looking at next season, these Canadian teams either starting in the States or delaying the start of their home schedule. I think that's, that's going to happen. And the thing that I get stuck on with that, because I agree with you, like, you know, sitting Alberta, the restrictions are not as tight. We are not in a lockdown. There's no

police enforcement, although I've heard a lot of those police departments have said we're not taking part in this, which is just even worse look for Ontario. But again, that's a story for another day. Exactly. But, you know, we don't have time to get into all that. But I do think, like, I don't know how, I don't even know when we're going to be allowed in a locker room again. And, like, and as much as I love sitting here and looking at you on Zoom, I will not miss Zoom. I will not miss it. The other day I had some malfunction on my phone, like my broadcast on my TV, went on to my phone, and then my phone started playing like a Blue Jay's game in the middle of me asking Milan Lu Cheech a question. And I was like, we've been on

Zoom for a year and I still don't know what I'm doing. If I'm talking to you in person, the Blue Jays broadcast isn't playing all of a sudden mid-question. It's little things I will not miss. But in terms of fans in the stands, I just, don't see it. And with the delays, my fear of that is that it's like, okay, we'll start on the road. But then when you see the Toronto Raptors, the Toronto Blue Jays, their plan was to start on the road and they've stayed there. Like I don't, I think the Jays they were thinking, I think there's some fans who were hopeful, like maybe we could get Canada Day at the Skydome. No chance that Jay's fans are going to be in Toronto watching a game.

July 1st. So that's my one worry with that is, you know, if you, if you delay the home schedule, are you just going to end up being there all season, depending on what happens here in Canada? Maybe I'm too doom and gloom. Yeah. Actually, when we bring Dom and that should be our topic with Dom and gloom. That would be, that should be the name of our segment. Hey, listen, before we do bring Dom on, I want to ask you about something, Haley, because I might need your advice a little bit, I kind of stepped in one this week with hockey fans in Ottawa. And what I think is interesting is I'd like to have a conversation with you. And I want this for all listeners.

I don't want this to be like an Ottawa-centric thing. I think this is something that's applicable to all fans of any team in hockey. But a lot of hockey fans are convinced that the people that cover them, their favorite team, need to be cheering for that team. right like it's it's a funny tightrope that we walk in this industry because if you you're either perceived as somebody who hates the team that you cover or you're a homer and there's no in between and i really want to just take a minute and have a nuanced conversation with our listeners because i took some heat this week haley i said i wouldn't mind it if jason spetsa nick felino

and the toronto maple leaves won the stanley cup because i got a chance many years ago to work with Jason Spetsa in Ottawa. I got to know Nick Falino over the years. I think they're good people. They're good human beings. They've been very, very kind to me professionally. And so I would like to see them do well professionally. I made the mistake of telling the world my opinion, which is like, what are you doing?

And I just said, look, I would like it. If the Leafs won the cup, it could be palatable this year because of Jason Spets and Nick Falino. And then here come the Ottawa fan. from all corners coming at me. I had to write a blog to not, I want to say this, I didn't apologize,

I explained my position. And yet still people are like, dude, why don't you go cover the Leafs? Like, I don't, I don't care about them. I want people to understand.

We don't cheer for or against your team. We do probably cheer for and against people because we kind of get to know them and so that I think there's a human element. But at no point am I watching a game cheering against the Ottawa senators or for them or like, what's the point? I just don't think the average fan understands where we're coming from. I understand where you're coming from as a fan.

I don't expect you to be living in the gray area. I don't expect you to be rational. And I certainly don't expect you to see both sides of an argument. That's not how sports fandom works. Sports fandom is looking through a specific lens at his story. and looking at it that way and that way only. Our job is to look at it through multiple angles, multiple lenses, and that's where there's a disconnect.

And it just, it played itself out for me this week where Ottawa fans are like, suck it, Mendez, you hate the senators, go cover the Leafs. I'm like, man. You've been there for so long. 20 years. Like, you weren't the new kid rolling in who just moved in from Toronto and said that. Yeah, with my 416 area code phone coming in. A 519 number.

Oh, yeah. 519 area code. 647. Like, whatever. Like, come on. I just, yeah. And another thing. No, I just, I wish fans could just take a minute just to remove themselves from the fandom,

understand that we get to know players on a personal level and that we do cheer for them. Like, it meant a lot to me. I got to be on the ice when Zadano Chara and Chris Kelly hoisted the stand the cup. I worked a rookie camp. I used to work in media relations. I helped train Chris Kelly to do media interviews and different things. Like, I was so happy for him as a person. I'm like, yeah, this is really cool.

Same as Zadiano Charo was so good to be back in the day. And to see him hoist the cup was really cool. I don't understand why people can't wrap their heads around the fact that we sometimes get to know people and we cheer for good people. Yeah. And you know what? I just pulled up your tweet and I'm so sorry, Ian, but some of the reply, the one reply. I'm so sorry. Dawn in Farhaven, I don't know if you saw this one, but he's like, nice to hear you back on the ratio.

I'm so sorry. That was a good one. I've been ratioed before. If you've been on Twitter and you haven't been ratioed, then you're not doing Twitter right. At some point, you're going to get ratio. That was a good one. That was some good dad joke pun. Like for all the crowd.

I give you for your jokes. Like I saw that one. I was like, yeah, Don and Farhaven. We're giving him a shout out. But no, I think it's a, it, everything that you're talking about right now, Ian is probably one of the biggest things that it's not a, it's kind of a pet peeve of mine. And it's something that I've gotten a lot because I came from the Toronto area. I mean, I grew up, like I said, I have a 519 number. I grew up in Fergus, Ontario. I did not grow up in Toronto. I mean, Fergus was about two hours from Toronto. So the Leafs were naturally the closest team to me growing up.

But you know what? That's the one thing I always get that always kind of ticks me off is like, oh, like, you're just a Leafs fan or like, what team do you cheer for? And I never know how to respond in a respectful way to say, I am not a fan of any of these hockey teams. the minute I got in, the minute I stepped into this industry, honestly, the minute I took my first year journalism ethics course, I stopped being a hockey fan. Because I had a great professor. She was a journalist at CBC News and she was also a lawyer before she got into journalism. So she taught us law. She taught us ethics. And one of the things that she taught us right away was, you know, you want to be in sports. You want to be in politics. You want to be in music. You've got to take yourself, you've got to remove yourself from this stuff because you need to be seen as ethical, unbiased and good at what you do. You've got to remove yourself. So if you're a sports fan and you've got a picture with your favorite hockey player, you probably shouldn't be posting those or asking for those pictures anymore. You go to a concert. Maybe don't take all these selfies, you know, freaking out over this artist because if you start covering entertainment, you're going to just look like you're a fan. So you need to try to find that. separation. And for me, you know, I was a Penguins fan growing up. I, my parents and I, we went to

Pittsburgh every year to go watch games. My uncle is from Pittsburgh. So we went all the time. And, you know, I was a, I was a big Penguins fan. I'll admit that. But once I got into the industry, I'm like, I'm not cheering for the Pittsburgh Penguins anymore. That will, that was my childhood team. But you get into this industry and you want to be taken seriously, always. You want to be professional. So while there's cool moments in your career, like I brought my dad to Pittsburgh last year to pay it forward for all of the years that he took me and helped me become a hockey fan, because don't get it twisted. Like, we work in hockey because we love hockey. We're fans of the game, but that doesn't mean we're like, I'm a big Leafs fan, I'm a big this fan, because you're just

trying to do your job. Obviously, we were hockey fans at one point. But the important thing to know is we were fans. We got into the business because we love the game, but you set that aside so you can do your job properly. And that's the one part about you that makes me laugh, though, is because like, didn't you, are you born and raised in Ottawa? Are you from Ottawa and you worked there for 20 years? No, so now you're just trying to poke the hornet snax?

Are you from Toronto? I was born there, but I grew up in Vancouver. Okay, okay, okay. But that's fine. Yeah, but I went to journalism school in Ottawa. I've been here 26 years or whatever it is. And it's like, hey. But you know what?

Where I think some fans, where some fans are right, I'll say this, okay? I think sometimes journalists play the objectivity card. Well, I must be objective. And when they do that, they lose their passion for the game. Yes. Like, just because your objective. And that's what I mean when it's difficult, right? Like, I don't know how to explain that because that's why it's important.

Like, I do love, I'm very passionate about hockey. Like, I get to go to the rink every day. day. But I do think that sometimes in in this sort of sometimes fruitless quest for objectivity and play it down the middle, we suspend our emotions. And that's not right either, right? Like I think it's important that our passion comes through in the coverage. And, and that's where we're wrong sometimes on the media side of things. We like to play this, well, I'm objective and I have no opinions. Well, when you do that, you're just robotic. It's very like very, very, very, And the one thing I wanted to add as well was, you know, you mentioned, you know, you root for good people.

I don't think there's anything wrong with saying I'd love to see Jason Spetsa win a Stanley Cup because you worked with him. He treated you well. You're allowed to root for, you know, good people. I think I can probably speak for the both of us that when we see Bobby Ryan doing something, we root for those successes because Bobby Ryan was personally very, very good to me. he was great to you. He's a good person. He's a good man. So you, you want to see these people have success. But that doesn't mean that we're going to go and you're not a Leafs fan. You're just saying, you know what, Jason Spetsa, Nick Flino, they're good dudes. This, I would not hate seeing them win a Stanley Cup. That's like, you know, being in Calgary now, watching the Sends from afar,

there's people in that locker room who were very good to me last season. They treated me with respect. They gave me all the time in the world. And, you know, I will always be happy to see these players. Shane Pinto and Jacob Bernard Docker, those two I spoke to on numerous occasions while I was doing some stuff on UND. I'm doing some stuff on them. When I saw them get called up or sign their ELCs, I'm like, that's amazing. I love to see that because those are two guys who just get it.

They're good pros. and they were very respectful and very good to me. You know, we're allowed to say, that's awesome. I love to see that. You're a sense fan. That's all the people in Calgary. I'm going to bring my pom-poms to the ring tomorrow for the game. There you go.

But hey, it was a good, it was an interesting conversation with fans back and forth on the media. But I do think that there's a distrust. I think, too, sometimes there's too many media people who sit on a high horse too and look down at fans. I don't ever want to be that person. I don't want to be the person that thinks I'm better than you because I have a credential. And the credential doesn't do anything. Doesn't make me smarter than the average hockey fan. And it certainly doesn't make me better.

And so I want to make sure people understand that, you know, we're still fans of the game. Yeah. We're just not fans of teams, if that makes sense. Yeah. And that's what I mean when I say, you know, because I got a little bit roped into what happened with you. Someone was like, Haley would never do this to us. Bring Haley back. And then someone else was like, well, Haley,

Haley's a Leafs fan and she left us for Calgary. And I didn't really respond too much because I was like, I don't want to, there isn't really a way to say like, I'm not a fan of these teams without coming off. Like you're on a high horse. Like it's a bit more nuanced than that. All right, Haley. You know, it's time for a Dom, Dumber and Dumber. Or what is it?

Dom, Dumb, Dumber and Dumbest, I think is what we ended up calling this segment. It's been a while. Dom, dumb, and dumber. Like the movie. Dumb and Dumber. And we added Dom. Yeah. Again, I don't know how we did it. But anyway, Dom Luce Chichen is joining us here on this late-night edition of the

Athletic Hockey Show. And we're getting you maybe at a bad time as a guy. Look, it's not a great weekend to be a Toronto Maple Leafs fan given the way things played out. But here's my argument, Dom, and I talked about this earlier in the show. This isn't an embarrassing loss for the Toronto Maple Leafs. I know some people will try and kind of get the narrative going like this is like Luzzi. into the Zamboni driver goalie and yeah it was 4-1 but look they played a really they played a really good game brayden holtby was dynamite uh sunday night but i'm just curious what your uh takeaways

were from that uh that memorable thrilling epic vancouver connects three two win over toronto one sunday well for starters i'm going to immediately take the mantle for dumbest for having bets on the leaps to win by two and to just win outright and they could not even do that. And it was disappointing to watch from that realm, especially because they were the better team all night. They got their chances. They outplay the Canucks as many expected.

But Bradenholpey was heroic. He saved the puck from going in with a windmill type save, and I still am not sure how that stayed out. He was sharp all night, despite being terrible for most of the year. you've got to give him kudos for his best game as a kinnock and boh orvat put the team on his back as well that's what you want to see from the captain and i don't think it was so much embarrassing for the leaps as you just have to give credit to the kinnucks for such an incredible emotional performance well especially considering everything that happened in the last couple of weeks with the vancouver

canucks like this wasn't just i mean i guess for the leaps you can consider it just another game go out and win, we want to stay first in the north, etc. But this was much bigger for the Vancouver Canucks. Yeah, for sure. And you could tell the Leafs were sort of trying to take advantage of the situation. A lot of bad habits

from the better players wanting to rack up points against a team coming off a three-week absence. And I think that sort of set the tone for the game with the Leafs not being able to do anything early on, despite

the massive advantage in chances and the Canucks were able to grab momentum after that. Okay, you got to help me out here. Like, just from an odds perspective, what were we talking about here? Like, if you were laying money down on the Vancouver Canucks to win before the game on Sunday,

would they have been one of the biggest underdogs of the year going into this game? Of the year? Yeah, I think so. The Leafs opened around minus 300, and immediately started climbing up. And I think they closed around minus 350. So I think that would put the Canucks around 290. So you bet $10 to win 29.

So I think that was up there for sure in terms of biggest underdog wins. And the line movement suggests there was a fair bit of money on the Leafs. And that's a good day for the books in that case. Bad day for someone like me. Um, my model didn't have an edge on the game, but I went back and looked at the four other teams that had COVID outbreaks. And in the 10 games after coming back, they won six percentage points fewer games than expected. And that's a pretty substantial edge that I think played a role in the inflated line today for the Leafs and why a lot of people bet on the Leafs and why it was so surprising that they lost. Okay.

Here's what I want to do for the two of you. See, Dom, what you should have done when you said that your charts didn't quite reflect accurately what was going to happen, that was your cue to blame Haley and say Haley was still in charge of your charts and all that. So I want the two of you to walk our listeners through what on earth happened to you on deadline day with your Twitter account and then having to kind of, you know, let Haley do all of the work for you. It was like she was your guru behind the scenes.

I mean, I'll say first that like from my perspective before we get the whole story. Like I, I don't know, I woke up on deadline day and I got, I don't even, I think Dom sent, I think you sent me a text with like a screenshot of something that happened. And you were like, so do you want to be chart girl today? And I was just like, what? Sure. And I'll say, Dom did all of the work. I just copy and pasted things and added my own, like, I guess, weirdness to it to some of them. Because he's very harsh, if anyone hasn't noticed that before. There are some things he sent me. I was like, I'm not saying that. That's not, that's so mean. But Dom has the more full story of what happened. I was just texted and said, hey, do you want to be chart girl? And I thought that was very excited. so I did it. It was very stressful though.

This actually started before the deadline. About two weeks ago, I tweeted that I was the happiest I've ever been in my life and my life since then has gone completely to crap in every single way. And one of those things was waking up on Monday morning to an email that said my two-factor authentication on Twitter.com was disabled on trade deadline day. And I was asleep at 340 in the morning, so I know it wasn't me. And I'm not sure what the point of having 2FA on if someone can just waltz in and turn it off. And so I logged into my Twitter account and it said that my account had been suspended due to unusual activity. So I looked at my actual account and

saw no terrible tweets, didn't get Berkshire, don't think there was any bad DMs happening. So Twitter did its job and close the account, I think based on TwFA getting turned off and that being a bit suspicious. So I'm thankful for that. I'm just less thankful for the timing of the actual event because I could not tweet on trade deadline day. And that's a great day for tweeting, a great day for the brand. And I was around 12 o'clock and things were happening and I needed to get some charts out, but I couldn't. So I texted Haley and asked if she wanted to be chart girl.

And it did well for her brand. I think she got a lot of engagement with the charts. She did her own thing. I saw that she tweeted that I was mean and she didn't want to be mean, but she still wrote what I wanted to verbatim. In quotes. In quotes. In quotes.

Just so no one got it twisted that it was me saying the mean things, not Haley. But I did, I thought you did an excellent job as chart girl for the day. So listen, there was a point in the day that got very stressful. Like at one point, the flames, there was things happening with the flames. We were doing the live podcast and Dom sent me like a bunch of charts and I was very overwhelmed. Like we were doing the live podcast interviewing people. I had my like phone next to the screen and was trying to push these charts out. We were doing the podcast and then Brad Tree Living.

And then they traded Sam Bennett. And then I had to go to the Tree Living scrum. So chart girl day was very hectic. It was a hectic addition to deadline day. But sorry, Ian, you were saying. Yeah, no. Listen, I'm all about transparency and honesty. I just need to know, Dom.

Was Haley your first call? Or was she like option four or five here? She was option number one. I thought for comedic value that Haley would be the number one choice. Yeah. It's, I don't, I mean, thank you. I don't know what about me is comedic. Maybe the fact that, like, I would probably never say those things.

And like half the time when you send me charts, I'm like, can you explain what this means? That's what was funny to me. And I think it would just be out of left field, but suddenly you start tweeting charts. Sort of like... It was funny. I think it was a few years ago where Travis Yost just randomly started breaking trades. It's sort of in that realm when someone just completely pivots and occupies a different lane. Yeah.

I thought it'd be funny in that realm. I know Arpin was a big fan. He was like, this was the best part of death of the day. And then Sean John Teal at the end of the day, he's like, wait, what? How did I miss all of this happening today? So yeah, chart girl was a hit. I'm glad you didn't get Berkshard, though. I felt bad because I blocked him when he got hacked.

But then I guess when you block, like you unfollow them, they unfollow you. And I feel bad because he probably just thinks I unfollowed him and never returned. I just didn't know. I was like, I don't want to get hacked. But anyways, I get nervous. You got locked out on trade deadline day, but now we're going to give you the full platform here, Dom. Talk about some trade deadline, winners, losers, you know, a week after the trade deadline. Did you notice any trends or things that in the last week that you thought to yourself,

you know what, this has been a good move for a team, or are we still in that stage where it's far too early to kind of wrap our heads around what happened on April the 12th? I still think it's far too early. The one team, I will say, there's been some immediate impact is Boston with Taylor Hall because, I mean, he already has two goals as a Bruin as opposed to two in like 37 games with those sabres. And that's something a lot of analytics people and really anyone with any common sense whatsoever looking at a hockey reference page could tell that would happen. because he was just so incredibly unlucky with the Sabres, and he was due. And we saw that almost immediately for him in his second game, his third game, scoring goals. And he's looked a bit closer to his old self, not fully all the way back. But if he can get to that level, he's a big piece for the Bruins who have won every game since the trade deadline.

What about, like, you were very vocal about the Taylor Hall deal, as you just alluded to. And I know there was a couple of deals that you were, I mean, I know the Sam Bennett deal, you were very upset that you were not able to be on Twitter because Sam Bennett essentially got the same, if not more, than Taylor Hall. But specifically with Hall and the Maple Leafs, you know, you seem to be, that was something that it seems like you wanted to happen versus Nick Philips. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, it's a tough one because the Leafs obviously went for fit with Nick Felino, and that's something that's obvious to everyone. Felino is a guy that he's the exact type of player that the Leafs need. It's just a question of whether they overpaid for that, because generally, you pay more for the better player. And the fact, Taylor Hall went for less than Felino doesn't sit super well with me because it means the leaves paid a premium for fit when usually it's the other way around. And given that the leaves have two scoring centers and Hall is a gifted playmaker, a guy who can create off the rush, I think he would have been a good fit as well versus Rano, just maybe not as good as Felino. And he has the extra value for everything he brings offensively to.

and I don't think he's that bad defensively either. Help us unpack, if you can, Dom, that trade between Washington and Detroit. Boy, Anthony Malth has been real good to start his career with the Washington Capitals, but that one kind of came in right after three Eastern Time and a lot of people had some thoughts and opinions. What was your big takeaway?

Washington, Detroit, and I guess the biggest trade on Deadline Day. Yeah, that one surprised me because I didn't expect those two to be dealt. I don't think many people did. I know Washington hasn't been happy with Jacob Vrana and Anthony Manta hasn't had the best season, but it was still a shock.

To me, the most surprising thing was how much Washington paid on top of Vrana to get Manta. And obviously the cost certainty is important, and the fact Manta is viewed as a bit stronger a player and they didn't really trust Vrana, but if you look at their efficiency over the last few years, Vrana on a permanent basis has always

outscored Manta. And you wonder how much of that is on situation and being sheltered and playing in a Washington system that is geared towards offense compared to Detroit, where Manta has had to be the guy facing tough competition. And we're sort of seeing that already with Manta having a hot start to his capital's career,

but it was a bit, it did feel like a bit of an overpayment on Washington's end. And Dom, one of the things that you're always involved with that we do at the athletic is trade grades. So I want to ask you, what would be your best and worst of the 2021 trade class? That is a tough one. I really could not believe Sam Bennett went for a second round pick. I think after the Taylor Hall trade just. And a prospect.

Nothing made sense to me after that. I think the Taylor Hall trade is a massive loss for anyone else who didn't try to grab him. I know he had a no movement clause, but when I look at Florida and their need for wingers and the fact that they traded more for Sam Bennett over Taylor Hall, it just, it doesn't sit, like, it just doesn't make sense to me at all. And I didn't love Buffalo Trading Hall the night before because I think they took a return that they might have been able to improve the next day. If they were able to see that Sam Bennett went for a second round pick and a prospect, maybe they could say, we know Taylor Hall is worth more than that. Yeah, it's weird.

It's like Kevin Adams pulled off that deal. Like that's the type of deal you would have expected it like 259 on deadline day, right? not necessarily 17 hours in advance. And, you know, another team that took some heat on top of Buffalo down was the Winnipeg Jets. And obviously in a different situation, the Jets are perceived by many as a legitimate Stanley Cup contender. But Kevin Chubble Dayoff didn't go all in. We were saying for weeks, wait till these guys, they just get a legit top 4D or bolts to the back end. They got the raining Vezner trophy winner and Conor Hellebuck.

They made the big splashy trade for PLD earlier. They're in a really good shape. What do you think Winnipeg did? Or how do you look at Winnipeg after the trade deadline? It's tough because there just weren't that many good defensemen available. I think once Nashville decided they weren't selling, it really made the market dry up. Because Matisse Atcombe would have looked incredible as a Winnipeg jet. It would have been exactly the type of player they were looking for.

But there's a huge drop-off after him. And the lightning picked up David Savard. and after that, there just wasn't anyone left. So I can understand why the Jets would stand pat, but you look at their defense corps and you really feel like they could have used an upgrade there. All right, Haley, we're going to have Dom stick around here, okay, gang, and we're going to do a little multiple choice madness

where we tackle five questions from around the hockey world. And maybe I'll just play the role of host and sit back and let the two of you answer these questions. Okay, so here we go. Question number one, Dom and Haley. I'm going to give you four possible first round playoff matchups. This is as the standings are right now. You tell me which of these matchups would produce the best series.

Is it A, the Washington Capitals versus the Boston Bruins? Zedana O'Chara against his old team. Is it B, the Toronto Maple Leafs of the Montreal Canadiens? This is a matchup we haven't seen in basically 40 plus years, two iconic Canadian franchises, locking horns, habs and leafs. Is it C? the all Florida matchup. We have never had Florida, Tampa,

and the Stanley Cup playoffs. They've both got Stanley Cup aspirations. This could be a lot of fun. Or is it D? Colorado St. Louis, if St. Louis ever gets their act together, they're a heavyweight. Colorado is arguably the best team of the league.

That could be a lot of fun. Haley, we'll start with you. Washington, Boston, Toronto, Montreal, Florida, Tampa, Colorado, St. Louis, what would be the best first round series? I was hoping you would go to Dom first because I'm never good at this and it's easier when somebody takes one of the options away because I don't like agreeing with people. I guess I'll be, the Florida Tampa one is interesting to me because like you said,

we've never seen it before and the Florida Tampa game the other night, you know, the Panthers upset, I guess upset. I don't know if it's, I guess it technically is, but the Panthers beat the lightning the other night, and Sam Bennett, who we know Dom doesn't think is worth the second rounder, had two assists plus three in his Panthers debut. That could be fun and interesting, and I think that could be something that's good for growing the game in that sense.

In Florida, I think, you know, building rivalries and having storylines that we've never really seen before is a good thing. I don't know if that's something that I personally would say. say like I need to watch every single game of this. But I guess I will go with Florida, Tampa, just for the growing the game aspect. And I, and I think that, you know, we've seen all the stuff about attendance with the Panthers and, and whatnot. So I think that could be a good one. I don't know if it'll be, you know, the most watched series, but I think it has a lot of potential and it could be good. Dom, what do you say? Bet's first round series there. I really do think the Florida series will be

exciting. A lot of the games this year have been, a lot of high scoring affairs. I think what sours me on that one is the lack of Aaron Ekblad and not having Florida at full strength because I do think Tampa Bay is a much stronger team and that series might not be as close as you'd like it. I think with that in mind, I mean, I think you have to go with the Leafs have just because it hasn't happened in so long as two storied franchises. And it feels like they're never good at the same time. It feels like the Leafs are good, the haves are bad. The halves are good, the leaves are bad.

And this is finally their chance to meet in the playoffs. And I don't know if there is a lot of bad blood between those two teams. I think with the history, it could get there pretty quickly. Yeah, there's been so many close calls over the years. I think 2013 in particular where it looked like they were destined to meet and then it just didn't happen. So hopefully maybe the hockey gods will give us that. Okay, gang on to question number two. We're going to go to the New York Rangers over the East Division.

I want to know. I'm going to give you four stats or facts about the New York Rangers right now. You guys tell me what do you think is the weirdest, craziest, most bizarre, most interesting of these New York Rangers related stats. Is it, A, the fact that the Rangers lead their entire division in goal differential, yet they're out of a playoff spot. They got the best goal differential in the East. They're sitting on the outside looking in. it be, Artemey Panarin has 52 points in 34 games. When you do the math, he's second in the entire league to Connor McDavid in points per game. Yet nobody's really talking about Panarin's

banana season. Is it C? Mika Zabanajad, he scored again on Sunday against the Devils. Zabanajad has seven goals against the Flyers, but only nine goals against everybody else. Or is it D? Adam Fox, arguably having a Norris caliber season. There's only five players in the entire NHL that have 40 points this season and are a plus 20. Drysidal, McKinnon, Mark Stone, Miko Rantan, and Adam Fox. It feels like one of those is not like the others. So, Dom, we'll let you go first on this one. I just gave you four kind of weird, crazy, interesting.

Rangers stats, what's the best one for you? Well, I take offense to you saying one of those is not like the others, because I think Adam Fox is he's on that level. He's a big Adam Fox fan. Big Adam Fox guy. I think he's emerged as one of the best defense in the league.

So I think he belongs with those guys. Maybe not Dry Settle McKinnon, but I think Stone and... Rantan. Sorry, Stone and Ranton. I do think he might be in that tier of player. But it's hard not to go with goal differential

for the Rangers. I notice this. I tweeted out the other day and it's only grown since then. It's so hard to believe that the team has outscored opponents by this much and has nothing to show for it. I don't think I've ever seen anything like it. I don't know if we'll ever see anything like it again. So it's just very strange because goal differential is usually one of the best indicators for how good and how strong a team is. And you have to figure the Rangers are a pretty good team.

and they very probably won't make the playoffs despite that. Yeah, but it's almost like the Zabanajad thing, right? Where if you take out those games against Philly, maybe their goal differential is a lot more kind of flat, right? I don't know. It's high enough that even those games, like, that's still, like, really high. Yeah. All right, Haley, which one is it for you?

Well, like Dom said, it's hard not to go with goal differential because, and I think I saw your tweet, Dom, where he said, Like, has this ever happened before? And I don't know if we found the answer to that, but I don't know if it ever has. And if it, if it has happened, it hasn't been that big of a goal differential. So that one is, is really weird. The one I will say, and I don't know if it's kind of crazy or strange, but like I think the Artemi, what's crazy about the Artemi Paneraan one is the fact that people don't seem to be

talking about him that much. I mean, when you look at it, and people don't really look at it from a points per game basis, so I understand that. That's not something that we typically do. Usually, you're just looking at the rankings and what everyone's done. But, you know, Panarin's a guy too last year. I don't remember exactly where it was, but I had him second or third on my heart ballot. I think Panarin's a guy who's done a lot for the Rangers, and he's been a really, really valuable player for that team. He's really effective. He's a great player. So he, Panarin's an interesting one. And, you know, I think he's eighth in scoring, played around 10 games less than everyone else. So, you know, I think it's not that crazy. But what, what's interesting about that is that I just,

I feel like he's maybe an underrated player. Maybe I'm not paying attention to the right people if I think he's underrated. But all that said, I still, I would agree with Dom. That goal differential is definitely the weirdest one there. All right. On to question number three. And outside of the think of the Vancouver Canucks win Sunday night against Toronto, I would say Patrick Marlowe getting into the record book was one of the biggest

stories of the weekend. Marlowe plays in career game 1,767 ties Gordy Howe in Minnesota. Here's my question, gang. Does becoming the all-time games play? played leader make Patrick Marlowe an absolute lock for the Hall of Fame. Your options are A, yes, this is a massive accomplishment he's in, or B, nope, he's still a bubble guy. Haley. I would say that there's people in the Hockey Hall of Fame who have played less and maybe

done less than Patrick Marlowe. I think he's a guy that we could see in the Hall of Fame for sure. Like I don't know. I've never really heard an argument from someone that he shouldn't be a Hall of Famer. So I think he is. And somebody asked Darrell Sutter that actually the other day. It was interesting because Sutter, who's now back with the flames, coached Patrick Marlowe and he was like in his first season with San Jose.

And he coached him really early on and he was asked, is he a hockey hallfamer? And, you know, Daryl was like, you know, I'm not the one that makes those decisions, but I would say that there's people in the Hall of Fame who maybe haven't done as much as Patty Marlowe. I figured Sutter's answer would have just been, I just hope his 1,0768th game is better than 1767. No, he was, you know what? He was very, when he got the question about Patrick Marlowe, it was on a practice day, which are always, you know, good days. He was, you know, very complimentary of Marlowe.

He was very complimentary of Milan Luch, each two. Once you hit those milestones, I think there's just a ton of respect there. And, yeah, he was great on Patrick Marlowe. You know, I pass that along to our colleague, Kevin Kerr's. I think he has something in the works about Marlowe as well, so we can see that in the athletic. But, Dom, what do you think? Yeah.

Is he a Hall of Famer? Yeah, for sure. I think there's no question that he's a Hall of Famer. I think getting the games played record solidifies that, but I think he did enough before that with his longevity to get there. There are players in the Hall of Fame, like you said, that have done less than him. And being the guy who's played the most NHL games ever, I think,

is an extremely difficult accomplishment that needs to be rewarded with a place in the Hall of Fame. All right. Question number four, multiple choice of madness, I want to know which of these teams that's on the outside looking in of a playoff spot right now. Do you think has the best chance of maybe clawing their way back into the top four in their respective divisions? Is it A, the Calgary Flames in the north, B, the New York Rangers in the east, or C, the Dallas Stars in the Central Division, Dom, stars, Rangers, flames. if you had to pick one that could maybe claw their way back in, who's got the best chance?

I think it has to be Dallas, mostly because of the path ahead of them being so soft. They only need to be better than the Preders and Blackhawks, who no disrespect to either team, they're not very strong teams. I think Dallas is getting hopefully Sagan back sometime soon. He was supposed to come back, I think, end of March, and that just hasn't happened. but Dallas is a lot better team than the record. I think they might even be fourth in points percentage. They might already technically be in that spot.

So I do like their chances a lot more than Calgary and New York, who face a very tough road with four teams that already look very solid ahead of them. All right, Haley. Dom says the Dallas Stars. Now, I thought it was interesting. You had a little bit of a rundown of how the Calgary Flames can make the playoffs. all predicated on the head-to-head matchups with the Montreal Canadian. So state your case of how maybe the flames can get in here.

Yeah, well, that was actually, you know, something that Dom helped me out with as well. In return for the projections and the chart he made, I led the story with a Ted Lassow quote because Dom is a big Ted Lassow fan, it seems. And I felt like a fraud because I actually hadn't started the show yet. So that's the little fun behind the scenes of that story. I am a fraud. I'm a big phony. I haven't seen Ted Lassow yet.

I will, I'll start it. But for the flames, I think, you know, the head-to-head matchups against the Montreal Canadians are critical. Obviously, the remaining games in their season are going to be really important. That's a given. But I think the head-to-head matchups are, there's nothing more critical than that. And I think, you know, if they can, what the original argument was is if the flames swept the Canadians in the four remaining games that they were playing against each other head to head,

um, the flames would end up with a better chance at the playoffs than Montreal, essentially the graphic that Dom created showed after every regulation win, which was very important, you have to take both points away. After every regulation win, the flames' chances at making the playoffs went up while the Montreal Canadiens probabilities went down until we got to that point of five and know in the simulation where the flames had a 50% chance at the playoffs and Montreal had around a 36% chance at the playoffs. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but essentially they

kind of curved-tailed and the flames ended up with the better probabilities. The flames did lose on Friday against Montreal. Then Montreal went and lost for nothing to the Ottawa senators. And, you know, I think Montreal, they're in a bit of a slump. I know our Arpan Basu has said they're wildly inconsistent. They've been in a slump for the last seven, eight, nine games now. So I think Montreal is keeping the door open. I think the chances of the flames making the playoffs are still very, very slim. I think Dom's probabilities have them now at about a five percent chance at making the playoffs because there's no margin for error for this team right now. They have to win the next three against Montreal. They have to probably beat Edmonton. They will have to, they will have to have

have to, they will have to beat the Ottawa senators. They cannot afford to leave any more points on the board against Ottawa. I think they're, they're two, seven and one against the Sends so far this season. And you look at Edmonton and they went nine and oh against the Sends. And that's, that's 18 points. The flames only got five. So I think that I'm not making a strong case here because I think it's, it's a very, very small chance that the flames make the playoffs. But I will say that the way that Montreal is playing right now is leaving the door open. All right. Haley, we're going to close the door on you.

You know why? This last question, it's for Ted Lassau fans only. So this is it. Dom and I are going to tackle this one on our own. Here's the question. And we have no idea with the Seattle Crackens roster is going to look like Dom. No clue. But right now, in the middle of April of 2021,

we got to say what's more likely for the Seattle Cracken next season? A, they make the playoffs, or B, they finish dead last overall in the standings. Dom, you're a probabilities guy. What's more likely Seattle makes the playoffs in their first year or they finish 32nd overall? That is a very tough question, especially without knowing what the team will look like. I recall that when I was doing probabilities during Vegas' first season, I had their odds much higher. than the betting market, for example, who thought they would be the worst team of league by far. That seemed to be a common sentiment.

And my model, I think, had them closer to fifth or sixth worst. And with a 20% chance of making the playoffs, obviously they ended up making it. So I'm just thinking if Seattle's around the same ballpark around 20%, what would their chances be of finishing last? And it's probably a lot less than that. So I'm going to say playoffs, but it might be. might be close. Yeah. You know what?

I think I'm going to say playoffs too because I just think general managers, as much as we think that they learned their lesson from the Vegas expansion draft, we also know that they haven't always learned their lesson. And I think Seattle will be able to ice a somewhat decent team. And I think maybe a Detroit or a Buffalo, Anaheim, Ottawa, somebody who's been a bottom feeder last couple of years may finish behind them. So I'm going to agree with you. I think it's going to be more likely that they may.

make the playoffs. Listen, Dom, we're going to leave it there, and we're going to tell everybody to make sure they watch Ted Lassow. Is that not just a great show or what? That dart scene with Ted Lassau, that's one of my favorite scenes in television in the last year. It was an incredible scene. The entire show is so worth it. It is such a feel-good show, and after watching tonight's Leaf Game and losing a lot of money on that, I could use something that feels good. There you go. Hey, listen, we appreciate you dropping by. We're going to have to leave it there. We'd like to thank everybody for listening to this edition of The Athletic Hockey Show. Please subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. Leave us a rating and review. We would truly

appreciate that. A reminder, annual subscription to the Athletic. They're available for $3.99 a month when you visit Theathletic.com slash hockey show. Wednesday's two-man advantage edition of the athletic hockey show will come your way with Scott Burnside, Pierre LeBrund. I'll be back in the seat. Brown, Sean McIndoo. I'm Thursday.