The Athletic Hockey Show - Chicago Blackhawks ready to compete for a playoff spot, sexual assault allegations still overhead, Colorado Avalanche enter the season as a Stanley Cup favorite, but goaltending concerns remain.

Episode Date: October 5, 2021

On this edition of the Athletic Hockey Show, the American's, Craig and Sean welcome Mark Lazerus and Peter Baugh as storyline week continues on the Athletic Hockey Show.Laz discusses the return of Jonathan Toews, the big time off-season moves involving Marc-Andre Fleury, Seth Jones and Jake McCabe as the Blackhawks try to navigate their way through the sexual assault scandal and qualify for a playoff spot in the NHL's toughest division, the Central.We head off to Denver to discuss Stanley Cup favorite Colorado, with Peter Baugh. Pete talks about the complete team that the Avs are, the ceiling for superstar blueliner Cale Makar, and if Darcy Kuemper can be the answer for the Avs as they prepare for a Stanley Cup run in 2022.Plus Craig and Sean provide their insight on Robin Lehner's opinions on the Jack Eichel mess in Buffalo and medical malpractice allegations throughout the National Hockey League.Join The Athletic Hockey Show’s official fantasy hockey pool on OfficePools.com: http://www.officepools.com/invite/classic/m/HAFE2H6QAnd, right now, you can save 50% on an annual subscription to The Athletic when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey, this is Craig Custin's. Where do I work? With The Athletic, joined, as always, by Sean Gentile on the Tuesday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show, the American edition, where we talk exclusively about American teams, mostly. That's right. We try. Occasionally, we have to reference Canadian players, which we do a lot in this Jonathan Taves conversation later with Mark Lazarus and probably talking about Nathan McKinnon. you know, that's... I want to say right now,

if you're a Canadian player on a Canadian team, you can get the hell out of here. That's right. That's right. I think you should just establish that early. We've got a great show. We've got Mark Lazarus joining us later in the second segment, along with Peter Baugh, Colorado Avalanche,

just a Stanley Cup power, high expectations, huge expectations with those two. Great conversations. with two of my favorite writers there on the beat. But let's start. The Robin Leonard story continues. And I know Haley and Ian got into this a little bit yesterday. But I want to start here because he's, it, this almost feels like when you're watching a TV show and they like break, you know, character and they look into the camera.

And they're like, hey, you at home. And you're like, wait, what? Are you talking to me? This was like somebody in the hockey universe for like the split second, like peeled open. in the world and looked out at us and said, hey, something needs to be said here and I'm going to say it. And to be clear, so he implied that there's the flyers, training staff and Elaine Vigno, they were supplying drugs that went to aid sleep and reduce anxiety and incorrectly doing that.

Vigno also, to be clear, came out and said all those are completely false. I think Robin at one point called Vino a dinosaur and we don't get this kind of controversy in the NHL so on one hand I applaud Robin Lennar I mean Robin Lennar like this is stuff we've been saying hey it's you know we need to stop protecting terrible things in the world of hockey so thank goodness he's doing this John

you're dying to talk I can tell I felt like I had to get a lot of the way I have a I do have a question for you were you were you surprised by this? No. That was a weird. Yeah, go ahead. Okay. That was a weird strain when this all dropped on Sunday night or Sunday afternoon or

whenever it was. I get people being upset about it. I get people being outraged about it. I like all respect to Robin Leonard for, you know, dropping the veil on this. But it's like, wow, NHL players abusing. Ambien? Like, who could have seen this coming? I had no, I had no idea. Like, I, and that's, and maybe that's what it took. Maybe it took a player just being like, this is, this is bullshit. Uh, it, it's been happening for years and years. I think that's something that I, maybe we took,

I certainly took for granted. Like, oh, yeah, there's, there's all sorts of bad stuff that's going on with, with, uh, with prescription drugs. Whether it's ambient, whether it's, whether it's tour at all, whether it's benzos or whatever or whatever else, it was, it was wild to see people as shocked as they were. I, and I, and I, I, you know, maybe, maybe I'm wrong and maybe, maybe that just means that I, whatever, I'm in the group that like, should have, we should have been working harder on this. Like, yeah, I don't know, but, but I was, I was surprised to people like, be like, holy shit. I'm like, yeah, of, of course they do. You know what? It's funny that you'd say that. I was more surprised that he called out vigno for his style then i what like this again this is terrible i don't

even know if i should be admitting this but i was like what he named names like i was like oh yeah they're they're doing terrible things with prescription drugs kind of like okay whatever that's that's kind of going on but then i was like but now we're going to just start calling people out and and you know i guess this is where you get into trouble is when you don't you're not parsing what you know calling him a dinosaur for his style versus whether or not he's you know you know he's you know you handing out prescription drugs, which I think Robin clarified later. He was just saying, Laine v. Nio is a dinosaur and his approach to coaching. But that's like that, that to me, you know, nothing Robin Leonard at this point does, surprises me in a good way.

And I'm not saying that negatively. Like this guy, this is a guy that's put himself out there, talks about mental health. He's broken that bear. He's like, look, you know, he has been so vulnerable and has done the hardest thing you can do as somebody and gone very public with your whatever private things you're dealing with. So the fact that he's doing this didn't surprise me. Even the topic, I was like, well, you know, there's some stuff going on with how players cope with what is a really hard sport and painful and, you know. Sleep issues are brutal. Such a huge, huge thing.

Yeah, like, like. It was the packaging that was wild. Right. Because like the way, the way Lennar said it and the way he set it up like cinematically almost where he was like every, he was, it was. he was the joker like that's basically what it was where he's like he's like every he's like every day i'm i'm gonna come at someone else like i'm gonna keep revealing this this sort this sort of that was the why that was the wild part to me not not necessarily what he what he what he said and that's not and that is also by the way that's not even remotely to diminish the problem of prescription drug

use abuse among among among professional athletes it's a huge huge deal but but to see it laid bear like that. That was, that was what was wild. Not necessarily the information, you know, contained therein. It's, you know, it's, it's fascinating because now you sit there in, and, you know, everybody got their hooks in Robin and, you know, there is, he had a conversation with the NHLPA, according to, he talked to Frank Saravalley at Daily Faceoff. And, you know, so he talks to the PA and I'm sure, I'm sure the Vegas, you know, sure. Kelly McGrimmons got, was like, hey, you know, let's, yeah, they got out, they got out, so we're not getting our Joker daily updates, sadly. They got the Muppet show, the Muppet show Kane out and yanked him off stage.

But like, selfishly, I don't want it to stop. Like, I don't want Robin, like, this is the only way truly, you know, we can sit there and try to report it and get roadblocked and whatever and, and, and, or. possible, like almost an impossible thing to report. Like, borderline, right? Like, that's, that's, that's such a, whatever. Maybe we're, we're, we're getting too granular here on, on this. But that's, it's going to take a player doing something like that to really, a current player. On a team right now. Yes.

And like, and God bless, God bless Tom Sistito, right, who waited, who waited yesterday. She said, good for Lennar, you know, the NHT is getting a lot younger at these kids. You know if they're walking into. and he said that the penguins specifically, he said there's a lot of great organizations in the NHL, the Penguins team of doctors were the ones that get me off all that shit, and they were dumbfounded as to why I had all of it to begin with. This is Tom Ticito yesterday.

So, you know, Dap to him, all credit in the world, but Tom Sestito is not an NHL player anymore, and the effect of guys like that, for better or worse, is blunted. So when you have a starting goaltender on a Stanley Cup contender who's been on TV a whole hell of a lot over the last couple, couple years and raise his profile and turned into a guy in the league over the last few years, like that's the kind of thing that it's going to need that it's going to need to happen to really, you know, bring this to a to the place that it needs to be.

And it's hard because he's, you know, he's a guy that, I mean, he's got a contract, but you're, the reason you don't hear current players raise their hands in these scenarios is because they've got a livelihood to protect. And it's the same thing. Like, well, you know, we talked to Mark Lazar's about the lawsuit against the Blackhawks and it's, you know, we sit there and kind of look at it and you say, oh, it's funny how all the former players heard all these

things, but all the current players were like, never heard any of this stuff. And you're like, hmm, and that you just, and funny how that works out. Yeah, and you sit there, and it's not to doubt whatever anyone's saying, but it's, it's people, like, the reality of the situation is, is you have people that need to protect their livelihoods here.

And hockey is one of those places where it's, if you're, Dean, somebody who is rocking the boat in any way, you're out. Like, really, like in Robin Leonard has, why? Unless, unless, unless you're a starting goaltender who signed for a few more years to a five million dollar contract. Like, that's the kind of guy that it was going to take. And Robin Leonard's, you know, his, he's, he's clearly made a choice a few years ago to

speak out on, on this sort of stuff, right? Like, he's, he's the last guy on, on earth. who's going to be muscled over this. So, yeah, it's a collision of a lot of different factors that made him, you know, the guy to kind of drop the veil on this. Yeah. So I applaud Robin Lennar. I, you know, it's the whole coaching thing.

It was, it's really interesting what happened. And I want to touch on this a little bit because I've, you know, spent a lot of time in the space and know a lot of the main players involved in the coaching world. And there was, we almost forget, there was this, almost this NHL. coach reckoning that that was happening right before COVID hit where you know you saw what happened with Mike Babcock and there was there was Bill Peters and I felt like it was in and there was an evolution of how you can treat players and you know and and look and you were starting

to have conversations with people in organizations or I was like you would say okay does this change the kind of person you want behind the bench can can somebody who's really hard on players still succeed. And then, I don't know, then that kind of went away. It got backburnered. It got backburnered with a whole bunch of other stuff. Like,

that's a conversation, especially when you look at just how difficult it was running an organization last year and the amount of crap that NHL teams had to deal with last year, you know, because of, it was hard.

It was hard for coaches and orgs and players. So of course, that's going to, you know, slide to the back. But, you know, I don't know. We have other things to worry about now. I guess. It's just a healthy discussion to have. It's, you know, I don't know if you all saw Meg Linahan's story,

but anytime you have these power dynamics in sports, where one person can decide the fate of somebody's career and playing time. And all of that, it creates an environment that can be disastrous for the. When I say other things more than that too. I mean like, no, I mean like, I mean now we're for better or worse, you know, you can quibble with this all you want. We're coming out of the COVID fog at least where other discussions are now taking place. Like we're sort of picking back up where we were a year and a half ago or two years ago.

We're at least capable and at least in possession of the mental bandwidth, I think, that it takes. to have conversations like that. And last year, we were not. Yes. No. That was like this was, this was top of mind 100% every single day. But now I think we're going to see, you know, this season, stuff like that slip back into the,

into the, into the dialogue and into the discussion because we can, we can worry about it again. Yeah. It's, and I mean, that's, that's healthy. It's good for the sport. And I, you know, we, Robin Lanners should be applauded. And I haven't heard. And there's been no backlash. I don't think.

I'm just glad that he's speaking out. And I hope other NHL players see, hey, this is our livelihood. This is our health. This is our long-term mental health. All these things that Robin is fighting for are, you know, more important than winning a Stanley Cup or whatever. And it would be awesome to see this get momentum. So he just doesn't look like an outlier where it's like, hey, what did Robin Lender say today? You know, he's a leader in a movement.

That would be amazing. Yep. And the only way it gets better is if people talk about it. That's true in a lot of different, a lot of different areas of life. And it's certainly true here. So yeah, I hope to see more of it. Awesome. Well, we touch on a little bit of this in our conversation with Mark Lazarus.

It was, the Blackhawks had a fascinating offseason. It was a great chat with Laz. So let's take a quick break and jump right into that. We are now thrilled to be joined as part of our Storylines Week, previewing the NHL season by Mark Lazarus, who covers the Chicago Blackhawks and, of course, mascots. That goes without saying, for the athletic. Mark. I infringed on his beat earlier this summer. I apologize. Sean has no scruples about just stomping all over. You know what?

No, I respect it. He didn't just infringe on the beat. He requested that my daughter supplement his son. story. He didn't do it on his own like some people might. He bent the knee to my daughter and made sure that her voice was her. Can you imagine a laser story than like a 3,000 word mailbag where 900 words of it is an answer about mascots written by a nine-year-old? I don't think so. That's that's half of Les's job. He's like, hey, I got nothing this week. Here, here, let me hand it, hand off. Yeah, go do something. She's got another story in the work that she's been working on

for months now, but she keeps, she's, she's almost growing out of it now. I'm a little worried. Like, she's almost too cool for school now. So she's like on that fence of like, does she want to keep doing this? Or is she going to be like, you know, Dad, I'm almost 10 now. I'm almost 10. I'm really smart. You have, you have, you have, you have, you have number two.

Just pass it on. I do. The six year old could get involved. That's when, that's when the older one started was when she was six. It would be like Doctor Who, except with athletic child mascot writer. Just keep replacing my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my stolen violence for my daughter. So, yeah, storylines week where we talk about kids and how we can get them to do all our work for us. Calvin currently mowing the lawn out back for me.

What are the child labor laws? Skirting child labor laws, yeah. Obviously, the number one storyline of the NHL season. Let's start here, because Mark Andre Fleury, I was just watching highlight real saves he was making against the Red Wings here in Detroit. And like the, I'm still wrapping. my head around the offseason the Blackhawks had on every level possible. Even like how to react to it. Like can we be, can we say they did a good job because of the other, you know,

the stuff we'll get to in a second. But Mark Andre Fleury. Try writing about it every day. Try writing. I don't envy you. But Mark Andre Fleury was this fascinating thing where it was like all of a sudden he ends up in Chicago. We weren't even sure if he was going to go.

and now he actually is looking like, hey, this might be a really good thing for the black, based on one clip I saw on Twitter during a preseason game. It was a really good state. So where have you landed on Mark Andre Fleury and the impact he can have this year on the Blackhawks? Well, I mean, it could be massive. I mean, he was assuming last year was the bar and not the previous year. One of those years was a fluke, right? He had a bad year, and then he had an unbelievable year.

And given his track record, he was. you're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he can do something. You can't expect a got to come in and be a 930 goalie, especially behind the Blackhawks defense. This is different than playing by Vegas. But if he could put up a 915 or a 920, that's a huge improvement from what the Blackhawks had last year when they just threw three untested goleys in there and Kevin Lankin and emerged the winner. So if you have Lankin and playing 35 games and you have Mark Andre Fleury playing 45-47 games,

you're going to win a few more games than you did last year. And the Blackhawks, for all their faults and all their use, youth last year, we're in the playoff race for much of the season until like the wheels kind of fell off at the very end. So you throw in Flurry, you throw in Seth Jones, you throw in maybe most importantly, Jake McCabe, a real shutdown defenseman. You add Tyler Johnson in the middle. You bring back Jonathan Taves, who might be their biggest offseason acquisition of all.

And yeah, I mean, some team in the Central Division is going to be really disappointed this year because there's six teams that firmly believe they're a playoff team. But the Blackhawks are one of them. They expect this team to make the playoffs. I mean, they have to, like if you do all this stuff. And then you're like, that wheels go off again. It's like, mm, that. It's tough to imagine a better safety valve than Mark Andre Fleury, right?

They're like, okay, I mean, can we improve defensively? Can we get the five on five numbers up to where they need to be? Like, maybe, maybe not. There's a lot of movement. There's a lot of action. We'll see if it actually sticks. But the fact that they have him, you know, it's still wild to me that he's on the roster. I know Craig, I know you said that already.

but like as soon as that move happened and part of that I think part of that's me being in Pittsburgh a lot of that's me being in Pittsburgh but I immediately was like okay this is like it feels wrong almost it's weird the wheel the the the the the wheels are greased for him to end up somewhere else whether it's here or wherever it just felt like it was a it was a way station for him like immediately and then it was like day one it didn't happen they do it didn't happen and then like you're like wow okay they actually they actually they actually pulled this off You know, I have a lot of respect for Flurry and talking to him about this stuff recently. It's, you know, everyone was freaking out because he took a few days to make a decision.

And, you know, I like to write a lot about the human side of being a pro athlete. It's a weird job. And like, you know, Sean, you're not going to be told, you know, you're being traded to Sports Illustrated tomorrow and you have to be in San Jose in the morning to report. Hold on. I don't have to. We, I'm not saying you shouldn't. I'm saying it's not going to. I mean, Craig's,

Craig's, Craig's, Craig's, Craig's been working the phones. I'm aware. He, he, he, he,

I've, I've, maybe there's a different example we could use there. I'm not sure. I'm not sure the Pittsburgh Post Gazette wants to reacquire me for the record, so you can scratch them off the list. That only happens to professional athletes where like,

you know, you can get moved against your will at some places, but it's not like tomorrow you have to do it. And the guy who's 37 years old and has got three kids who love where they live. He's got a wife and he's got a whole family. He took a few days to figure out. to figure out, you know, do I want to keep doing this? And then he said yes. And, you know, we're all running around like crazy. Like, oh my God, he doesn't want to play in Chicago. He doesn't

want to. He hates Chicago. What's going on? And no, he's a human being who had an important family decision to make. And God, good for him for taking the time to make the decision. Now he's here. He seems really happy. He's competing his ass off and practices. Everyone raves about him. It's Mark Andre Fleury. Everybody knows about Mark Andre Fleury. Everybody knows about Mark Andre Fleur. It's like the greatest guy in the world. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's like, that's like the, we're contractually obligated to talk about what a great guy is. But, but it's, but it's true. Like, there's a reason everyone says it. It's because it's true. And I, I said this to somebody after the trade, you know, whenever the penguins, will they, will they, will they make it happen?

Will, like, will they not? Everyone's saying he doesn't want to play there. But I said, I said it to someone back then, like, he's, he's going to, he's going to change his mind because that's just, that's just the kind of guy is. Like, I think he, you know, I'm sure once you talk to everybody, heard, whatever, heard, heard, heard all the great things about Chicago and, and how it can be to raise a family there and all, all that stuff. Like, they, if, if another team wanted to do that, they were going to have to strike quickly. Like, he was, because he was going to, he was going to, he was going to come around to the right side of stuff for, for Chicago at least. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, last year, the Blackhawks had Kevin Lankin in,

Malcolm Suban and Colin Delia in goal. Mark Andre Fleur is a step up from that. Like even Kevin Lankin is not like mad about this after winning the number of Robbies. What is he going to do? And as good as Lankin was last year too, right? Like he was, he had a stretch there where he was phenomenal. And then he fell apart a little bit.

Because he was being asked to play four times a week. And, you know, in a weird seat. And he wasn't capable of doing that just yet. He might be down the road. This buys your year. This is like when the Black Hawk signed Robin Leonard two years ago. Nobody saw that coming.

But if there's a Vezanet caliber goalie just sitting there on the market and you can afford him, it's it's it's it's negligence not to at least entertain the idea. Do you have any set expectation for for TAVs? Like is there is there any way to, is there any way to have a feel for how this is going to work out? He is, he is very hesitant to make any promises. So therefore I'm very hesitant to make any promises. He looks really good. Like he he he's taken one day off in all of training camp so far. He's been out there. almost every night for 75, 80 minutes, doing the wind sprints at the end. Like, I thought they would be treating him with kid gloves. I still think they should be treating him with kid gloves, but they're not. He wants to be out there. His first preseason game, he played almost 23 minutes, and he was really good.

He had two primary assists last night. He should have had a third in the first 12 minutes of the game. I mean, his speed isn't there yet. He's never been a burner, but he's a good skater. And, you know, that's what he's working up to is getting his speed and his timing back. But he looks really good. He feels really good from all accounts. He's doing great, better than expected.

I mean, he's almost certainly going to be in the opening night lineup at this point. And if you get 75% of Jonathan Taze, what he was, you know, considering what the Blackhawks had down in the middle last year, he's your number two center this year. He's not playing with De Brinket and Kane. If you can get him 18 minutes a night out of him and he can still kill some penalties and win some big faceoffs, get some power play time. I mean, what, he's only 33. He just took a whole year off. It might, you know, be a blessing in disguise. Obviously, nobody would wish on anyone what he went for.

through over the past year. But 15 years of that heavy style of hockey he played, you want him, you know, he needed time off. And he got a full year to let everything kind of reset in his body. And if he is really back, we don't know how he's going to respond to the stresses and the rigors of hockey and travel. But if he can handle it, he might be better off in the long run for it. That's straw. Let's, um, straw poll. Does he make the Canadian Olympic roster as a, as a long shot right now? It's so hard to say, like, like everybody wants him. who, Team Canada adores him, obviously. No, I know.

But I don't know how you can justify. Like, who are you going to take out? They've got 950 centers on that team. Ryan O'Reilly, sorry, man. I mean, at this page of his career, Ryan O'Reilly's a better player than Jonathan Taze. I don't think anyone's arguing that. Taves would have to play out of his mind the next few months to make that team.

All right. So we're three nos there. You know it's in the back of his mind, though. You've got to know that. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think it's front of the mind. I think a lot of these, I think that's a big driver here. I'm just that center depth is that center depth is really interesting that that top that top three that they have I the the winger group is is sort of beyond de brinket and cane is kind of kind of kind of weird to me right like who's who is he's going to who stays on track to play with is it is it going to be like he'll be back with Dominic Kubalik who he had great chemistry with in kubu Kovik's rookie year and it could be Brandon Hagel on there it could be one of these young guys maybe they move Dylan Strome to the wing if they have nowhere else to put him but kubalik and taves they make magic together.

So they just need to have some kind of speedy, scrappy guy in that right wing. I think Hagle would be a perfect fit. And you're always a second round pick from adding somebody at the deadline. That's actually pretty, like the wing, that's one area you can go into the season, not feeling good about. And no, you can shore it up fairly easily. I thought, Laz, you had an interesting telling moment earlier where you were kind of rattling through their offseason editions. And you were like, Seth Jones, but Jake McCabe on D. Now, that's what they needed.

And you kind of like breezed past Seth Jones. So my interpretation there is Jake McCabe is going to have a bigger impact than Seth Jones on that defense. Is that how about reading that? I don't know if that's what I'm saying because Seth Jones is the number one defenseman who's going to play a lot. But everybody knows what Seth Jones is. I feel like Jake McCabe is one of those players. I don't know. That's, yeah.

We don't know exactly where he is right now. I mean, you know, you talk to hockey men copyright symbol and they love him and you talk to Dom and he's like the worst player that's ever lived. Okay, I might be hyperbalizing a bit there. No, it's true. No, yeah. I've heard him say it, yeah. I mean, we don't know exactly what Seth Jones will be, but we know what the potential is there. But I feel like Jake McCabe is one of those acquisitions that are a little more under the wire that, you know, you know, fans around the league.

He played in Buffalo, so nobody really got to see him much anyway. He played in Buffalo and blew out his knee last year. Yeah. Like, what, how could you be more of a hidden kind of commodity coming into free agency than that? You think back to when the Hawks had those cup years, and I always used to harp on Nicholas Jalmers. being, you know, one of the two or three most important pieces of that team because you can put them up against anybody and it freed up your other defensemen, your Keith and your Seabrook, to go have more favorable matchups.

You know, right now they've got McCabe playing with Jones, which isn't what I would do. I would have McCabe with Connor Murphy and having a real shutdown pairing. That can change, but right now it's McCabe and Jones, but that allows Jones to be more aggressive offensive, which he's been talking about what he wants to do, because McCabe is so good in his own end. He's one of those really underappreciated, true defensive defenseman, a real shutdown guy. who can really, you know, take a lot of pressure off his partner or of another pairing. So right now, Seth Jones is in a good spot.

Whether he's playing with McCabe or not, he is going to be freed up to, you know, activate more in the offense and be more aggressive, which is something that he very much wants to do. So the Blackhawks have been the worst defensive team in the league for like three straight years now. So adding Seth Jones helps, but adding Jake McCabe and adding some of these other, you know, depth forwards they have, that's what's really going to turn things around if it does indeed turn around, which is obviously no guarantee. So, Las,

let's finish here. It's, you know, they make all these moves and nobody wants to hop on the Blackhawks bandwagon, even though you say, because there's also the cloud

looming over them with this, you know, the sexual abuse lawsuit. And you've had to, I don't envy the needle you've had to thread as a beat writer who, you know, it's way more fun to talk about huge trades

in free agent signings. And, you know, you tend to have more access to the people making the decisions when you're not then having to alternate with a, you know, reported out story about a lawsuit that's, that is really ugly. And, and, um, so I, you know, what I'm really interested in is, A, is this, is like, how, how do you anticipate this playing out over the course of the season? Like, are we, is there going to continue to be like these constant updates?

And, and how are fans balancing this in Chicago of, like, you know they're like, hey, they want to get excited about Jonathan Taves, but they're also like, they might have done a terrible thing here. Like, where does that out? Yeah, no, the, the legal process does not move quickly, as we all know. But right now, we're still waiting for the results of the, uh, the quote unquote, independent investigation from Jenner and Block, the national law firm, the Blackhawks paid to look into this.

And they've been talking to people from, God, it's been two months now, I think. Yeah. The Blackhawks have pledged, thankfully, to make those findings public. We'll see how detailed those public findings are, if it's just kind of a top sheet, uh, summary of it. Um, when that comes out, that's going to be. be a very, very big deal because it's basically going to be, you know, it should be naming names and who did what and what, you know, the Blackhawks, to this point haven't really denied anything. They've

been, they've been dealing with the legalities of it trying to get the cases dismissed. And that very well still could happen, even if the cases get dismissed, which, you know, some legal experts that Scott Powers and I have talked to have said they have a very good chance of getting these cases dismissed for various technicalities and things like that. They still got to make, they still got to survive the court of public opinion. And, you know, Scott and I have been writing a lot of lot about this lately what it's like to be a Blackhawks fan because it is an exciting time to to be a Blackhawks fan. It's been six years since they won that last cup. That's a lifetime when you've won three cups in six years. And people are excited about all the stars. People are so excited to see

Jonathan Taves back and Mark Andre Fleury. How could you not be excited about that? But there are fans that have turned in their season tickets over this. There are fans that are ambivalent at best about this. It's, you know, you're rooting for players, but how can you root for the team right now, given what they may or may not have done, what's been alleged here. And not just the front office, the allegations of homophobic bullying by teammates, by guys that, you know, guys that you worshipped as a fan. Yeah. You know, we don't know that that's true, but it's, you know, Patrick Kane said he never

heard any of that. Jonathan Tays said he never heard any of that. But that's out there now. Right. And that's something you have to wrestle with as a fan is, is can you throw your support behind a team and a front office and players that allegedly did the things that are being alleged here. It's a fine line to walk as a writer, but it's, I think it's a lot harder to walk as a fan. I'm a Mets fan. The Mets have had some, you know, the Mickey Calloway and the GMs and, you know,

there are times right now. It's just like, you know, why do I invest so much emotional energy in this team if there's going to keep, you know, putting, you know, these flawed, if not bad people in the front and center. It's hard sometimes, you know. You just hope, like, I think the Mets fan comparison is a good one. And I think as a fan, you sit there and hope, okay, the organization that I care about does the right thing. Like that's, like, that's where my mind would be. Right. As a fan, you're just like, do the right thing here. And you never want Katie Strang writing about your team. I mean, that's basically what it comes down to. And she's writing about a lot of teams these days. So and Meg Linahan too. I mean, it's, it's hard to be a sports fan right now. It's hard to feel good about some of the institutions that you love right now. It's a sports fan. Yeah. Well, there's a reckoning happening and it's going to keep going and it's going to keep getting uglier. God bless Katie and Meg. for their work and because I mean that's ultimately the most important thing and and and last I you know I appreciate because I know there's fans that would rather you not weigh in on that they just want to like live wherever they live where that's not happening so I appreciate you doing the work there and and keeping us up to date on everything that's happening and and hopefully you're

able to enjoy some hockey and seeing a guy like jonathan taves step back on the ice and like 20 minutes at an exhibition game it's pretty amazing man it's really it's just it's the it's the most jonathan taves thing that's ever happened. It's, you know, it's... 23 minutes. I don't think I realized all the number. Good God. He had like a two minutes shifted overtime, too.

Of course he did. Last, thanks for doing this, my friend. Great to see you. Thanks, buddy. Hopefully we'll see you in, I want to see you in Chicago at a playoff game. Let's do it. I miss it. I miss writing about big games.

It's been a while. Awesome. You might have some here, man. That team, that team for better or worse, is. is going to have a chance. All right, boys, thanks. All right, I want to thank Mark Lazarus for joining us. But now we go from one of our oldest beatwriters in Mark Lazarus, who is ancient to one of our youngest,

most talented superstar Peter Ball covering the Colorado Avalanche. Peter, what's happening, my friend? How are you? I am well. That's very kind of you. But, yes, things are pretty good here in Denver. They're always good Denver. I'm always jealous of anybody in Denver.

Chicago and Denver are two of the best stops on the tour. And we wanted to bring you in because that's, I think, Colorado Avalanche, this is the year, right? Like, everybody is all in on the Avalanche. We've, they've gone through their growing pains, all the stuff that you have to do to succeed. You have to have the heartbreak. I think we've had the heartbreak. I think we've had enough heartbreak in Colorado. And now, now it's the show me year.

And do you feel any, does that vibe resonate right now, Cam? Do you feel that burden of expectations on this group at all when you're there? I mean, I think certainly they aren't shying away from what their goals are and they know that this is a Stanley Cup caliber team and that they probably were a Stanley Cup caliber team last year and they couldn't get it done. So I think that that pressure is something that they know is there. But I don't necessarily know if it's new because last year there was that pressure too.

But maybe last year was, like you said, the heartbreak they needed where they just weren't emotionally ready and now they are. So it's going to be a fascinating year and definitely a lot of pressure and it very much is an all-in year for the avalanche. Yeah, I mean, they're following the template. You have the heartbreaking loss, whether it's, you know, Tampa versus Columbus or, you know, Penguins versus Detroit like in 2008. Like, that's the way it works. I think a way, I mean, but a way they're deviating from it is the goalie stuff, right? I mean, you're switching midstream for a cup contender from Grubauer to Kemper. And I don't know.

What are you seen from him? What's the vibe like surrounding that? Because that's the biggest, that's the biggest, you know, day one story for them is making that switch. Totally. It actually reminded me of a conversation I had with Craig, I think over the summer about they had these three free agents, McCarr, who is an RFA, Landiscago, who is a UFA, and Grubauer, who's the UFA. And Craig, one of the things you said was I would probably focus on getting your skaters, like, signed, and then figure out the goaltending after that. And that's exactly what

the Avalanche did. They had to pay for Landis God, probably a little more than they would have liked. And then they had to go find a new goaltender because Guru Bauer walked in free agency. And Kemper has looked okay so far. I mean, it's hard to tell with preseason game, especially with goalies. Like, goalies are just really hard to evaluate it. but he played decently well last night. He had his first full game of action. And the abs played a pretty much hybrid AHL, NHL team against the wilds, like mostly NHL team and Kemper had a 906 percentage.

So it was a solid showing. So we'll see, obviously, preseason games don't matter. But I think it also helps that Pavel Frances is back from injury. And they have a little bit of insurance and another goaltender they can count on. God, they were so close to being left holding the bag. Like when the goal, when the goal, they were, they were right there. The game of musical chairs was about to stop and sack and sack and was going to be standing. So yeah, you see, you know, you see the trade.

I'm sure in a perfect world, it wouldn't have, that's not the way it worked, would have worked out. They wouldn't have sent that many assets. Yeah. Offer their replacement. But, I mean, they got, they got a guy if nothing else. They got a guy that makes sense. And they were, what, a day or two away from, from being in whatever, a Pittsburgh penguin spot. Or whatever.

Yeah, exactly. Where you're like, okay, we're the loser here. And they avoided that. I don't like, yeah, I mean, not to, but like, I don't even think, I think they did better than that. Like, they got a guy who fits within their structure of what Peter and I talked about the summer. Like, they pulled it off. And maybe it was five hours away from being a disaster, but. No one's, no one's going to care.

that they sent a first round pick to Terry. It doesn't, that doesn't, that doesn't matter. That doesn't matter as long as, as, as long as camper performs and we have plenty of reasons to think that he will. I think, I think that's a, that's a completely workable solution to them. Yeah. Yeah. And also, if, if all goes well for the avalanche, that first round pick will essentially be

an early second pick. Right. Right. Right. Absolutely. And that's, that's what you do when you're sitting with the avalanche sit. I was actually, you know, when you started reporting that Landisog was, was frustrated with, you know, the offer and, you know, there's all this posturing that was

happening with Gabriel Landisog and it became very public. I was really starting to wonder if that would get done. And also because that's a front office that is very aware of things like aging curves and the value of cap space and has these young players that are going to have to sign. And I really was like, boy, that might be a coin toss. Is there a way to play to put a value on what Landisgaug brings to this team in this moment in time as, you know, as they try to win a cup? Well, I think that's why you ultimately saw them overpaying. It's probably the wrong word because there is that value that you can't really measure.

But I mean, in terms of like pure hockey analytics and all that, would it have made sense for the avalanche to go after Jaden Schwartz and keep Brandon Sodd rather than signing Landiskeg? Maybe. be. But Landiskeye is the unquestioned leader of that team. He is vital in terms of teams have different types of leaders. Like Nathan McKinnon's an intense guy. He'll push his teammates as we, I mean, Nikita Zedorov's comments were maybe a little exaggerated, or at least that's what McKinnon has said. But yeah, he asked him. He came across like a psychopaths. Well, and I think Landiskeg, he can balance that out a little bit. He's someone who's been

around the league. He's seen this team be in the dumpster and he knows how to keep perspective. And I think that's really important, especially when he's with a guy like Nathan McKinnon and he's someone who can check Nathan McKinnon if Nathan McKinnon. It's maybe being a little too much. So I think that that's invaluable. And he's a really good player. And the fact of the matter is the avalanche are in a cup window right now. And if they win a cup in the next three years and Gabriel Landisag is a big part of it. And that contract's probably worth it, even if six years from now, he's declining heavily. And you're paying a $7 million cap hit to someone who's on a decline.

Like, there was maybe more leverage there for Landisog than I wanted to give him credit for. Because if we're following the narrative that you have a core group that goes through some heartbreak and then eventually breaks through, you kind of need the core group to be there for it, you know, for the breakthrough. And if you, like, you know, you study Macarra, but you don't, you lose your captain and maybe you're starting goalie, all of a sudden this isn't the same group. This is now, you know, now it's not the core group. It's so funny to see the analytics heavy front offices. I love seeing what makes them leave their comfort zone and deviate from their valuation, from their like on paper valuation of a player.

And I thought that, that's a fascinating element to the Lanniscox stuff, right? is like is he is he you know in a spreadsheet somewhere does he is he worth the amount of money that they paid him like in terms of just strict strict on ice stuff like probably not but you know they factored in all the all this stuff right the the the heartbreak and the in the fact that he is a yang to to to to to McKinnon's yen like that's it's it's cool it's cool to see front offices consider that and I thought that was like a through line for their off season honestly Yeah, and you saw another thing that made them, I guess, kind of the front office maybe go away from analytics a little bit, was the Vegas series. And they went out and traded a fourth for Curtis McDermott, who is very much not in analytic.

No, no, no, he is not. He is not an analytic darling, but he is very big and he is unafraid to play physical. And I think that the Vegas, if the Vegas series goes a different way, I don't know if they make that trade. I saw you did a risers and fallers and had new hook on Alex Newhook who was off offseason acquisition by them on the fallers list is there what's what have you seen from him is that they're they're already not thrilled with him eh well so I was I was going to have him on the fallers list he's a he's a mixed bag now he played well last one yeah there we go he salvaged it no no no yeah he salvaged it last night he uh I mean Bednar essentially says so new hook's a guy

he's a 2019 first round pick with the abs comes in last year plays in, I think, eight of ten playoff game, scores his first goal in the playoffs. Looks like he might contend for a second line spot this year. And Bedner yesterday, I asked him about it. He was like, yeah, he's kind of gotten off to a slow start. He's been just okay for me. And Bedner's really honest.

And I think he said he's had a conversation with New Hook about starting to get it going. And New Hook, to his credit, last night really did. He played really well. The game, you couldn't watch it on TV in Colorado. So I was listening to it on the radio. Of course. It sounded like he was playing well.

He sounded great at AM 950. Yeah. People on the ice were screaming, wow, Alex Newell is so good. Exactly. Alex, you're doing great. He scored. He scored. And then Bednar after the game said he did in fact play well.

Yeah. I saw the, well, I saw the Bednar quote in your piece and was like, okay, he's a faller because he is. He's like, Benner was like, he hasn't stood out for me in a big way yet. And he's getting better, but he had a slow start to camp for me. And I read that.

And I was like, okay, like, this guy's, this guy's, this guy's on the, on the, on the,

uh, hit list already. Yeah, well, it's an interesting thing because going into the, um, training camp, it was like,

he felt like a borderline lock to make the team. And now it's, he's still, I mean, I think there's a decent chance he'll be on the team. And, and honestly, the,

prerogative for the avalanche is not for Alex Newhook to be contributing on the night one roster. It's whether he's contributing by like game 64 and whether he's ready to go for the playoffs. And I think Alex New Hook is just because he's had a up and down camp does not mean that he will not be a very successful NHL hockey player. He's only 20 years old. Those are the guys that cup champs have, right? You have the 20-year-old Alex Newhooks who are making next to no money and giving you max production for that. Every team has to have a couple of them. That's just the way it goes.

Totally. So let's wrap with this, Peter. You mentioned Jared Bedner. There's, you know, I don't know. We were, Sean and I were just talking about coaches that maybe have a short leash. And there's, it's, the league's in a weird place because there aren't a lot of guys that you would say, okay, this, there's, there's a real hot seat. I think Jared Bedner, who has done, you know, a good job. People look at what he's done in Colorado and they appreciate it.

I just ask you because expectations are so high, and that tends to, um, you know, that tends to put pressure on the coach. Like, how long would you say his leash is this year? Well, it's interesting. Except Pierre LeBron reported that the apps have started like a contract extension talks with him, his contracts up after this year. But I think that another second round exit would not be good for Bedner. And this is more speculation than anything.

But this seems like you said with super high expectations. And maybe Bednar is the coach before. the coach that gets them there. He's done a great job getting them to this point, building them up. I think that he said this like the first two second round losses they have are not like, they're not like the third. They probably overperformed to get to game seven against San Jose in 2019. Yeah. And they were crazy injured in 2020. Last year is the one that really stinks. And that's the one that will put, that'll make the seat get a little bit warmer. But I also wonder if it, if it looks a little different, if that's the conference finals,

which it easily could have been rather than a second round matchup because of the weird division formula. Yeah, he's been a coach for a weird window of time. You don't know what I mean? Like he's hit an advocate some bizarre situation. You don't see a lot of guys that are the head coach of a team that's gone through that many phases of their organizational lifespan, right? Like, my God, he's been there for a lot.

for a lot of different stuff. And that said, there's a lot of coaches that would kill to have, like, their low point B getting to the second round

of the playoffs for the last three years. We're like, we're like, got to do better than that, Jared. It's like, oh,

that's better than 98% of every coach. Hey, you're forgetting the low point of 48 points, his first time, his first year. I mean,

we remember that roster, Peter. It doesn't. That doesn't, that doesn't count. It kind of count. He was like, he was like,

he was like, I'm really grateful that they stuck with me. He did not take, like, I think it sounded. Some of his comments have made it sound like he was a little nervous after that year. Yeah. There's a grasser. We need like, we need like a one or two line prediction from a car this year.

What are we going to expect? Can we write him in for the Norris and marker? Is that going to happen? I'll say if he's healthy for 70 games or more he will win the Norris. That is my one-sentence prediction. That's great. I like it. I like it.

Well, Peter, thanks for doing this. It was fun. It was great to see you. and it's going to be, I mean, this is a fun spot to be in as a beatwriter. You know, this is going to be, if it's a disaster, that's not fun, but you'll have lots to write about, or maybe it's a long cup run and the fans get on board and that's, there's nothing better than that. So enjoy it. And best of luck, Peter.

Thanks for doing this. Yeah, thank you. I'm excited. All right, Sean, now for my favorite part of the show where this became like, let's promo the app. And now it's become, I love living in the common section of our app. because people seem to get, they're in on the joke about the American big. Somebody was dropping stuff about that Leafs Amazon show,

you know, just daring us to talk about it. I'm mad I even referenced it because that will be... You should have Eve Slay Amazon Way show or whatever. Find a way around it. Oh, I should have done better there. You did reference it. You were true to your word in the comments there.

So I'm going to pull up some of these. We've got some questions here. And if you are a subscriber to the Athletic, just go on our app. We've got the tab there, the listen tab, go to our specific episode, click on details. We make you climb through a lot of hoops, so leave a comment. But it's fewer hoops and used to. So that's a good thing.

And so let's... I think we're due for another change there that completely confuses me and makes it impossible for... All you have to do to comment on our show is download the app. Then you've got to hike, climb a mountain. Be smart than Sean Gentile to comment on a show page. And guess what? It ain't tough. So let's start with Chris Jay, who points out rightly, correctly, that Chris was mad that the Monday edition went to the Florida Panthers last week and they had Joel Quinville on.

Maybe you guys should go north next week and steal a guess. We would never do that, first of all. But because we're, A, we're good teammates. Good teammates. I would not. Unlike certain other people who were here. Yeah. So they bring in Joel Quinville just completely.

out of bounds. Like, you have four teams, or how many teams are in Canada? Six, eight. You have teams up there. You don't need to go to Florida to get Joel Quinville. I'm pretty sure he's American. No, he's not. So, yes, thank you, Chris, for calling them out, and

it shouldn't happen again. They should not be tapping into the American teams for guests. It was ridiculous. Brandon H. took us to task because in the middle of, we were talking to John Bucci Gras in last week's episode, if you don't go listen to that interview

if you didn't listen to it. John was great. It was good. You can skip all of me and Sean. Anything else we say, just go right to the interview. And one of the things we were talking about was the Manning cast. In Gentile had you, Sean, you had kind of a throwaway line about like, hey, sorry Steve Dangle. It's better to watch the Manningcast and to watch

people talk about games. No. Oh, right. So hold that. I'm going to read Brandon H says, low blow to Steve Dangel, streaming playoff games on YouTube. I actually preferred his commentary to the games over the national broadcast, and the Leafs are not my favorite team. And there's like many more words from Brandon. But I wanted to give you a chance to acknowledge or at least refute the low blow against.

My blatant disrespect to Steve, who's like, who's just the greatest guy. No, the reason I said that was because it was right around the same time where it's like the Steve Dangle Podcasting Network and we knew that CJ was getting involved. And Steve has his like, he's got his, he's got his. he's got his fingers in so many in so many different pies, like, my, my God, the dude's a, dude's a, dude's a mogul. It worked for him. So why are you making fun of them on our podcast?

So to hear Boots, say like, I don't, like, what, it's watching people watch a game. I'm like, you have this, you know, this dude over here is like, who's made, you know, a wonderful career for himself doing that. But yeah, I, um, but yeah, it also kind of just belied my overall stance. I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm to start a feud with Steve Dangle on the, on the, on the, on the, on the athletic, on the athletic, cocky. That's good. I mean, we already fight with Ida Haley.

Calling you out, Dangle. Let's go. Oh, my gosh. All right, next comment comes from Brian L. who says, love your show, guys. I'm wondering if we can get a second American show, since we still have two Canadian shows. That's a valid point.

We can also talk about it. I enjoy their shows as well. You don't have to say that, Brian. But have grown to like the American version a little more. Let's let that just sink in Let's make it a lot more, baby I would argue Max, Boltman and Corey Promin

speaking on prospects. Max is also based in Detroit. It's not an American-centric show, but at least it, is Corey Canadian? I don't know. Corey, I think he's got...

Where did he come from? Where did Cory Promen get from? I don't, I don't have the answer to that. I do know he's got like Montreal ties, but family in Florida. I don't know. what his passport says. I think he's a man.

He's, he's deliberately. He's ambiguous in his nationality. Here's a question. Here's a question. What is Corey Pondman hiding? Should we have another American show? I would agree, Brian.

So let's, I think there's a lot of good options that aren't me and Sean to certainly do that show. And I appreciate your support. I appreciate you, you calling out that the American show has certainly surpassed the Canadian shows in enjoyability. Significantly. I don't know if you.

Brian said it. It's there. Don't, don't re- reset. It's there. Significantly. We'll try to get there. Last one,

this comes from Lucas C. I feel like I am a rare crossover of being a proud Canadian and a fan of the American version of the athletic hockey show. Any chance you guys talk about your early favorites spelled, with like a you thrown in there, Lucas. Yuck. To make the Memorial Cup next episode. He wants us to talk.

Oh, Lucas. Is that some sort of tournament? What's the Memorial Cup? I think it's like a beer league, like a senior league. So is it like the- It's where the retired players get together and play it. Okay. Well, Lucas, we'll look into this Memorial Cup.

And if it's, if there's... Oh, no. I know what that is. Lucas, why are you asking us to talk about CFL football? Oh, that's right. Big Rough Riders, man. We'll talk to Mays about that. Maybe you can talk about Edmonton, whatever they're called now.

Aren't there like three teams with the same name? Isn't that another thing? Or is that no longer... Who cares? All right. So if you want, we'd love interacting with you all. Like, we already responded to half of these anyways in the out. but make sure get some good questions in there.

We like that it's way more fun than having to go into the cesspool. That is Twitter to engage. We like to refine our questions with subscribers and listeners, especially people that start everyone that say, I like the show better than the Canadian version. That'll definitely get your question right. So go on our app, ask those questions, and we'll definitely answer them.

All right. To wrap up, I do want to plug a couple of things. Yeah. The episode, we don't really talk about Down Goes Brown and Ian Mendez's day of the week. They don't care about us. We don't care about them. You think McIndoo needs our help?

Jesus Christ. But they've got John Vogel and Arthur Staples. Yeah. I would give them a listen. The Islanders are, I mean, we like the Islanders. We've already established our love for the Islanders on this episode. Staples got an interesting team. to cover there.

The simvers, Vogel, here's, here's why you should listen to John Vogel because he's got the most interesting storyline of the entire season with the Jack Eichael Trade Watch. Yeah, and Vogel, Vogel hasn't slept in the last nine months or whatever, whatever it is. I'm still worried about him. I am worried about John. What I love about John is, like, he does, he goes and he's reporting things day to day and you get your coverage, and then every once in a while he'll just drop the hammer. He'll torches, torches.

Torches. Torches. It's unbelievable. I love it. I love it. Those are two really, really great writers. Like the staplet, the staplet. I mean, I'm jealous they're on the day the week.

You take your pick. Yeah, you hear that Lazarus Baugh. Get lost. We wanted staple and vulgar. This sucks. Also, I would encourage you to subscribe to the Athletic Audio Plus on Apple podcast to get all the bonus content. from our entire network.

We have so many podcasts now. I can't even keep track of them all. So make sure you're subscribed to the Athletic Audio Plus on Apple Podcasts. You can start with a 30-day free trial and then it's just 99 cents a month after that. And if you're not subscribing to the athletic

and you're like, hey, I want to leave comments on the podcast and also read all the great work that our writers do. If you go to the Athletic Hockey Show, no, don't do that. It's not even a website. If you go to theathletic.com slash hockey show, you get in,

50% off. No, here's, here's, here's, here's, here's you guys do. Go to the athletic hyphen hockey show. Dot biz. Backslash hockey show. WWW. Backslash, Craig and Sean. Dot HTML.

Don't forget the coupon code. A ball deodorant. And. Crop Preserver. Sean, it's a favorite. hour of my week. Love it. Great job.

Point. That's my new sign-off. Point, point, point, point, point. See you, everyone. Bye.