The Athletic Hockey Show - Chicago Blackhawks sexual assault investigation leaves many questions still to be answered

Episode Date: October 27, 2021

On this edition of the Wednesday roundtable, Katie Strang, the Athletic's senior investigative reporter joins Rob Pizzo from CBC Sports, along with Sara Civian and Jesse Granger from the Athletic. The round table discuss the outcome of the investigation into the Chicago Blackhawks sexual assault incidents from 2010. We discuss the NHL's response to the findings, how the 2010 Stanley Cup champions handled the situation, Stan Bowman's future in hockey and what lies ahead for Joel Quenneville and Kevin Cheveldayoff. Plus, our team empathizes with the survivors as they bravely look ahead to the rest of their lives.In the final segment of today's podcast, Rob, Sara and Jesse get back to the action on the ice, and take a look at the upside down NHL standings, with Buffalo and Detroit playing well, with teams in Vegas, Tampa and Toronto, still struggling to find their way this NHL season. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

What's going on, everybody? Welcome to The Athletic Hockey Show, the Wednesday Roundtable Edition. I am Rob Piesel from CBC Sports alongside, as always, and as I will be all season, Sarah Sivian, and Jesse Granger from The Athletic. What's going on, guys? I'm good. I'm good. Just another week in the life.

How are you, Jesse? I'm doing all right. It's been a busy week in Vegas and nationally. How are you, Rob? I was looking forward to our previous two shows a lot more. I'll be honest with you. I mean, you know, when you think back to what we talked about over the last couple of shows, it's been, you know, whether or not Jack Hughes tossing his stick into the crowd was awesome.

And, you know, players being able to dress however they like. But I don't know about you guys. These last 24 hours for me have been shocking, chilling, upsetting, heartbreaking, whatever word you want to use. And I know this is not a new story, but yesterday, obviously, it really came to a head. the Blackhawks releasing the findings of the independent investigation involved with the allegations of sexual assault of a player by Brad Aldrich, who was of course their video coach at the time back in 2010. And the investigation really dives into how the Blackhawks handled those allegations when they were made aware of them. And the fallout was immediate.

I mean, Stan Bowman stepping down, NHL finding the Blackhawks 2 Mill. Blackhawks admittedly did a lot of things very, very badly. but this thing is is far from over. So like I said, you know, this is, it's a tough story to talk about because it's just so, so upsetting. But, you know, maybe we'll start with you guys just as far as the last 24 hours, some of the things that have kind of gone in your head, maybe some of the things that really jumped out that you saw from that press conference yesterday and just how you're, how you're kind of computing.

It will start with you, Jesse. Yeah, I guess to me, the thing that stuck out to me, the most as the details came out yesterday was just how preventable it all was. I think things like this, bad things happen. And I think to me, the thing that really stood out that I didn't, I guess, didn't know going into yesterday that has, that has really been hammered home is how preventable it was and how many people had chances to possibly prevent this from going further, from happening again, and they chose not to. So I guess that's my, that was my, like you said, this isn't a new story. We've known a lot of this stuff for a while, but to me, that was what really hit home yesterday.

What about you, Sarah? Yeah, I mean, as hard as this is to talk about, I'm at least glad it's out in the open and we are talking about it. And optimistically, it could create some sort of wholesale change because there are changes that need to happen and have needed to happen with the way we go about reporting these things, believing these things, and taking action. Definitely what struck me is the language that was used in some of these meetings about how important winning really is and how that is something that's lauded in hockey culture. But there's a point where things are more important than winning. And we're going to talk about that and pretty much everything that came out in that 107-page report,

139 people were interviewed. Not going to lie, it's a difficult read. It was made public, which is what I like, because a lot of times when things like this happened, they're not made public. Immediately afterwards, the Blackhawks said, you know, this could be reviewed. And we're going to bring on somebody who's been following this story extremely closely, someone who I've known for a while and read a lot of her work. And as soon as I found out, we were getting Katie Strang on, I was really excited from

the athletic. Katie, thanks for doing this. I guess maybe I'll start with the same question. I kind of asked Sarah and Jesse. I know this story is far from over. But yesterday was really the turning point of everything that's going on. You've had a little bit of time to process it. what do you think of everything that's happened over the last 24 hours?

Yeah, I mean, it was like a heavy, dark day, I think probably for everyone. I was heartened by the fact that, you know, we were able to see, you know, the full investigative findings. I think that was important in terms of taking a step toward transparency and accountability. but it's hard not to find the details and the facts within that report just deeply disturbing and troubling and dispiriting about what Jesse said in terms of how many people had the chance to do the right thing and did not how many people I feel like abdicated their moral and ethical obligations to protect players in their safety and their well-being and did not. And just about what I feel like was really an utter lack of care for an individual in a very

serious situation in the way in which winning and results were prioritized over a human being. To me, this whole thing kind of comes down to exactly what Jesse said as far as this was preventable. Let's talk about the meeting. And, you know, the report came out that there was a meeting back in 2010 involving all the powers that be for the Chicago Blackhawks, Stan Bowman, John McDonough was there, Joel Quinnville, Kevin Shevoldeoff. And as you mentioned, after that meeting, it was decided, according to the findings, that the Stanley Cup finals were more important right now, which I'm not condoning, but I could at least wrap my head around.

What I can't wrap my head around is the fact that Brad Allrich wasn't immediately, at least, suspended, separated from the team and the victim. They allowed him to continue with his job, continue through the Stanley Cup finals, continue with the celebrations, continue being around John Doe and not do anything for three weeks. That was the number one question that popped out in my mind. It almost, I don't want to use the word comical because it's not comical, but it's, I remember thinking I must have read this wrong. How does a mistake like that happen? I think it happens a bunch of different ways. I think it happens because people lack sort of the understanding to realize, you know, the severity and gravity of the allegations, the severity and the gravity of, you know, the harm that it, you know, know, has caused a human being, emotional distress and anguish.

I think it shows a general lack of understanding about very basic power dynamics and how, you know, someone who is said to have committed a very egregious act is allowed to be still within the same orbit as someone who has reported that act and taken, you know, great pains and risk to do so. And again, I think it just shows like that there's a real lack of regard for like player protections, player well-being, player safety. You know, utterly devoid in that meeting seems to be like a baseline of human decency. And someone pointed this out, and I didn't make this connection right away. But it's a really valid point, which is if it was urgent enough that you meet immediately after the game where you secure the place in the Stanley Cup final, why then is it

acceptable for those people to kick this down the road three weeks? That doesn't make any sense to me. To me, if you are entrusted with this type of of information, everyone has a responsibility to act on it. You know, I, I, they probably are legally in the clear. They're probably not mandatory reporting statutes that would have required them to go to law enforcement. But as a human being, a basic human level of decency, you owe it to investigate that promptly, seriously, and thoroughly. And they did none of that. do you think there are legal measures that clubs can now enforce to make this have legal ramifications, or do you think they might or they wouldn't touch that?

I don't know the answer to that. I don't have a great feel for, you know, I imagine it varies from state to state, but I can tell you what can happen, which is the NHL can set a certain level of standard about what it will and will not accept, and they should. Because, you know, it is not. adequate anymore for people at that level of power, authority, and influence to be able to just say, you know, I didn't know how to appropriately handle that. I dropped the ball. It was a mistake. I'm sorry. I entrusted that to my superior. Like, if you cannot be trusted

to act with a basic level of human decency and care for people in your, like within your purview who you are tasked with overseeing, if you cannot be expected to protect employees in that scenario, you are not fit to lead. That's it. And the NHL, I do believe it's incumbent upon every team and the NHL to say, set very strict guidelines about this is how concerns are escalated, this is how to appropriately handle them.

And if you do not do that, then you are not fit to serve in that capacity. And there will be ramifications. Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up because yesterday, of course, everyone was playing the blame game. And Stan Bowman released a statement saying, basically, and I'm paraphrasing here, well, I told John McDonough, I told my boss, basically my hands are clean now it's up to him um that would be a legitimate statement if the next day he came to work and brad ulrich was not there but you saw him for the next three weeks you saw him

through all the celebrations so the very fact that he just said well i'm going to just pass the buck i told my boss makes me believe that even stan bowman at this point doesn't get it agree or disagree i would agree with that i i saw that statement and was deeply troubled by that statement, I felt like it was severely lacking in introspection, severely lacking in accountability, and, you know, severely lacking in understanding of what went wrong. You know, Stan Bowman might have escalated that to a superior or thought that a superior was tasked with handling it. But Stan Bowman, you know, was a stakeholder in that situation.

It is also incumbent upon him as general manager to protect his players, and he didn't. And I don't feel like he gets that. I mean, that statement is a clear reflection that he doesn't. It's tough to feel that anybody gets it, though. Like when you see kind of trigger warning, what was said in these reports from his teammates. And from, then you see kind of Paul Maurice, obviously, Hart might be in the right place with his statement, but he says it's not a distraction. This news was not a distraction for his team and it's just another day when it needs to be a distraction, right, because for change to

actually happen and these players need to understand male sexual assault. Like, males can be victims of this, you know? I feel like there's not a baseline understanding of that with some things that were said. And I'm telling you guys, it's so common. Like, you know, because I cover this a lot, like, I probably have some, you know, level of bias or some baseline level of, you know, worldview that I bring into the equation. But, you know, because I cover this a lot, like, I do have people like disclosing situations to me all the time. And it's so much more common than most people realize. And you're exactly right, Sivie. Like, to characterize it as a distraction is like so deeply problematic. Like, as far as I'm concerned, like right now hockey's the fucking

distraction. Yes. Like, this is not the distraction. And you mentioned the ramifications and we obviously saw it with the people who are still on the Blackhawks, but at least, I mean, this may change in the next few days, but at least right now, It seems like the people who were involved who are just as at fault as the ones who were on the Blackhawks still who have moved on to other teams like Shevoldeoff and Joe Quinville. It seems like they're using that almost as a shield just because they're no longer part of the black. I guess what do you expect in the next couple days? And do you agree with that? I mean, no, I don't expect.

I don't think that they should be shielded from the same level of scrutiny. I think they should have to answer very, you know, serious questions from the league. and, you know, I think they should, look, I mean, it's straightforward. There's not a ton of nuance in this for me. I'm pretty unequivocal. And then I feel like if you knew about this and you did nothing, you are not fit to lead. You're not fit to lead a team. You're not fit to coach.

You know, you're not fit to do a whole hell of a lot, in my opinion. If you hear about this and you do nothing. So that's up for the league to decide and to parse and to figure out how much of they can discern. But for the totality of the findings, there is quite a bit of detail there. This should not be super difficult to be able to deduce. And if those people failed in their obligations, that should be reflected and they should be held accountable. And it's not just the isolated incidents as well. I mean, as we saw, they didn't do anything. They allowed him to continue being around the team and what happened, another attack during the celebrations. Afterwards, what happened?

A high schooler, a minor in Michigan by this same man where he ultimately had to go to prison for it. And that's because people didn't speak up. People saw, don't, don't, that's the, the Stan Bowman line. I'm sorry to harp on this is the one that really bothered me as if to say, well, I told somebody, my hands are clean. You saw him. And I know you tweeted about this, Katie, but. It does take a lot of strength to come forward with something like this, especially now when Paul Vincent was a huge kind of turning point in this story. Talk about the importance of him coming forward. And I know he wavered too.

He said, like, I wasn't sure what to do. But how important was his testimony in him coming forward? Oh, so important. I mean, like, you know, I always, these stories are really depressing to handle and they're really disturbing to write. But I always tell people that for like every two people that do the wrong things. or do nothing, which is the wrong thing. There's always one person willing to stick their neck out and do the right thing for no other reason than it's the right thing to do.

And that's Paul Vincent to me in this case. And so, you know, who knows whether that impacted his employment with the team? Who knows if it's going to impact him in the future in any way? but I imagine Paul Vincent has to feel pretty good going to sleep at night, you know, knowing that he escalated, you know, this concern and tried to, you know, push people to do the right thing. And it's really, like, I think pretty responsible for it, you know, kind of taking a turn in the public domain and really putting a ton of pressure on the Blackhawks in the NHL to act. And I think that's important.

I imagine the people who did not take appropriate action are going to have a tough time sleeping at night. And they should because you're right. Like there is a human cost to this. And so, you know, you mentioned that teenage boy. Like that teenage boy is going to have a lifetime of trauma to deal with. And same with John Doe. And not just the trauma from, you know, what he said happened. to him. But the way in which, you know, he was treated after he came forward was such a, you know,

personal, painful, traumatic thing. He deserved a lot better. I have a question that I've been grappling with, and I don't know if there's a right answer to it, but what do you think, like, Jonathan Tave's role in this should be going forward? Should he comment? We don't know how exactly he's involved. Like, and we don't know what. Yeah, I'm glad that you asked me about that because I recognize the value in asking Jonathan Taves about this situation because he is the captain of the Blackhawks. He is the public face, the spokesperson, and, you know, he has a pulse on what's going on

within the dressing room. And this is something that the players, I do not think of it as a distraction, but it is something that they are going to have to deal with. and that will be very instructive about what sort of team they are in terms of how they deal with it, how they deal with it as an organization. But I also want to be sensitive to the fact and appreciate what I do not know. And we don't know if there are other people that might have been impacted by Brad Aldrich's behavior. And the fact of the matter is like a lot of times, you know, players,

don't, you know, not even players, people that encounter situations like those. They, you know, I think the average age of like disclosure for a man when it comes to sexual abuse is like in his 50s. So there may be more people impacted within Brad Aldrich's tenure with the team that we have no idea about. So I want to be really sensitive of the fact. And again, appreciate the unknown there. Katie, did the NHL do enough? I know it's still. early, but I see a number like $2 million. And I think back to the New Jersey devil's getting fined for caps or convention for $3 million. I see the, you know, the New York Rangers being fined $250,000 during the Tom Wilson incident.

And that doesn't make a lot of sense to me as far as the severity and what actually went wrong. It seems to me this report has laid everything out. We heard the Blackhawks yesterday say, yes, we did things very wrong. and because of that other people got hurt. Is a $2 million fine enough? So I grapple with that on a couple different levels. Like, you know, putting it in context of other punishments, you know, no. But I also feel sort of like garish even trying to contextualize this or dissect it from like either a monetary fine or like a, you know, a draft prospect fine.

Like, to me, that is just a bit too superficial in terms of, you know, a punishment, mainly because I don't think that's an effective deterrent. I think the only way that you're going to really, like, make wholesale and dramatic changes on this front is to hold people accountable, you know, in their jobs, in their positions. like there has to be some personal investment in stake that if you do not do the right thing, that you're not welcome in the National Hockey League. So, sorry to interrupt you, but instead of a monetary punishment, would you have rather seen, say, for instance, Stan Bowman ban for X amount of years? Yeah, I would.

And I think beyond that, like, I do think that there needs to be like, not necessarily a rubric, but I do think there needs to be some really explicit guardrails about like what the expectation is in terms of how clubs and team officials are expected to handle situations like this. And I also think that there need to be whistleblower protections for people who know about things or have heard about things or who have witnessed things that want to speak up, but may not feel safe or protected enough to do so. I think that, you know, in order to root out some of this, you have to be able to empower and protect people to speak up in a way that they feel like it'll be handled seriously and that they will not be adversely affected. Obviously, the NHL can help that along by putting these things in place. Do you think just this, you talk to a lot of people, do you think that just the way this has gone down and the way it's become public, do you think that just on its own without any other mandates by the NHL can. can help change the way hockey players and hockey teams view these things? I hope so, but the honest answer is that I fear that people in those positions will see this situation and be fearful of being involved.

You know, people get really nervous talking about. stuff like this, which makes sense. Like what what makes us uncomfortable and what we don't feel equipped to talk about does make us nervous. But people like, I mean, I can tell you because I have to make cold calls about this every day. And people don't like talking about it. And I get that. But I think, you know, it so many times it comes down to like institutional protectionism and like what every single individual is willing to do to protect their own ass. And I think I see so many times, that people are always making the calculation, not of what is the right thing to do, but either what's the safest thing to do or what is going to cause them the most minimal exposure.

And I would love to tell you that I think that human nature will change, but I think in many ways institutionally and systemically, it is designed to sort of reinforce those more baser instincts. Katie, I know this is not about you. I know this is not about, you know, Mark Lazarus or Scott Powers or Rick Westhead or anybody else in the media who've covered this for a long period of time. But, you know, I got into this business because I love talking sports and I love talking hockey and I love coming on here and, you know, talking to Jesse and Sarah about winning

streaks and losing streaks. But, you know, people like yourself, this is not easy work to do for a long period of time. And I can tell that you're a little emotional and a little affected by a story. like this. How does covering a difficult story like this just change your perspective on covering sports? And you know, you mentioned earlier, hockey's a distraction. Actual playing of hockey is a distraction right now. But how does this affect you? Because this is the last 24 hours have been exhausting for me. And I'm not trying to be victim here in any way, shape, or form. But for you and the people who've really delved into this over the last, you know, how many months, it's got to be just really difficult.

It is. I mean, it's, it can be like really, really. depressing. It can, I think, really take an emotional and mental toll. I think it can really sort of like warp your feelings about, you know, the underlying good in people. And, you know, I mean, I'm a parent too, so it's probably manifested in some unfortunate neuroses with my own children and my own parenting styles. But, you know, I can, you know, I can. I, you know, I go back to what I said earlier, which is, you know, there's, for every, you know, really disturbing or troubling or problematic angle to these stories, there are like always, you know, sort of uplifting triumphant moments, too. So like, you know, yesterday was really, really heavy and

really, really dark, but I did say, see, that, you know, Rick West had reached John Doe. And Rick has just done such phenomenal dogged reporting on this. And we wouldn't be talking about this today if he weren't so relentless and such a bulldog on this story. And I just respect and like Rick so much. But it does feel like John Doe felt some level of like just, you know, I think affirmation and support and validation. And that's, you know, those sort of moments are really, really important to remember in these things. You know, the people that do speak up and are really willing. to be honest and to share things even if it can cost them significantly. Those are people like that I try to think of when it comes to this. Like it's very easy to get down on human nature

and stuff. But, you know, I do think that there are still really good people in this game and people that want to do the right thing. So I think it's just a matter of like empowering those people that want to speak up and effect change and support, you know, their community. You know, we talk so much about character in hockey culture. I mean, it's like this buzzword that's almost to me like lost its meaning because I don't think that we really take time to assess what that means. And so I think we need to have like a very honest reflection about what character means to us. and so when I think about character I think about doing the right thing

even when it's hard and I wish more people would have done that in this case Katie you know obviously it's it's been a tough for you and that's why I wanted to ask I wanted to make sure you know and I understand your emotion let me just put it that way thanks so much for coming on and not holding anything back.

We really do appreciate it and keep doing what you do because, like I said, this is not easy work. I couldn't imagine on a daily basis delving into this and you've done a great job. Thanks so much for coming on. I have so much respect for the emotion

and the refusal to be desenticized to everything you've seen. That we need that. This is just so crucial to the game. I totally agree. Thank you so much, Katie. Thanks, guys. I appreciate it.

I love you all. The very emotional Katie Strang, from the athletic. We're going to take a quick break. After the break, we're going to look a little bit ahead with this story in regards to Joel Quinville, Kevin Shevoldeoff, Stan Bowman, and the Chicago Blackhawks as a franchise. Okay, guys, we've talked about a very eventful 24 hours. We do have to look forward. And by forward, you know, we talked a lot about that meeting, who was in that meeting, two very familiar names were in that meeting, Joel Quinville, now the head coach of the Florida Panthers and Kevin Chevaldeaoff, now the GM of the Winnipeg Jets.

They have both basically come out with statements saying, I'm going to cooperate. I'm going to speak to Gary Bettman, as Gary Bettman had said in his statement, he wants to speak to both of these men. But I guess right now it's status quo. Joel Quinville will be behind the bench for the Florida Panthers tonight, which I find mind-boggling. Agree or disagree, Sarah? Yeah, that's a judge.

joke. These conversations with Gary need to be urgent, and this is just kind of happening, right? I don't think he should be behind the bench right now at all. I just think that that is ridiculous and doesn't bode well for true justice being served, but we'll have to see. What do you think, Jesse? Yeah, I mean, I don't want to judge how they're going to handle this, like how Gary Batman's going to handle this based on him coaching this. But I think that this is a moment where when we look back on this, say Gary Betman does force him out of his job or whatever it is, whatever punishments are handed down, I think you're going to look back and say, well, how ridiculous was that that he coached that night before? Like, regardless of what the

punishment is or what the fallout is from his meeting with Gary Bettman, I think that we will look back and think that was pretty ridiculous that he was on the bench the night before. So I just think I agree with you guys that he probably should not be on the bench and just let this play out without like like I said, put everything on hold, let it play out and then we'll see where we go from here. Don't put him on the bench tonight and then we'll see it after that. Right. It makes no sense. Yeah, every single instance of investigations I've seen in sports, even guilty or innocent or whatever, they are taken out of the sport for the time of the investigation. Right. Deshawn Watson hasn't played a game this season. I mean, different sport, but the investigation is ongoing. The player isn't on the field. And I think it should be the same way in this scenario. Of course it should. What did we talk about that entire first segment with Katie? Brad Aldrich was allowed to stay with the team and with the victim. And what are we doing now?

Someone who was privy to all of this and didn't say anything according to this report. I want to be very clear according to the report because they're saying that meeting. There are very different accounts of what happened is going to. to be coaching. But I can't help but wonder if that's an indication of what's going to happen once he speaks to Joel Quinville. Because if, if Garrett Betman had his mind made up that maybe what you said, Jesse, he's, he's out or suspended or something. I don't think he lets him behind this dispense tonight. And it's 2021, guys. I would have no problems if they said, well, it's got to be a Zoom call. We are speaking on a Zoom call. Yeah, yeah. Don't give me this. Well, I got to go to New York.

He's got to, I, I'm with you, Jesse, on not wanting to criticize, but I do want to criticize. I do want to say, this makes no sense. For him to be behind the bench makes no sense. And then you've got Kevin Shevolde off, who, another one who's now waiting to speak to Gary Bettman. What do you guys think is going to happen there? I mean, I guess it's all depends on what they say to Gary. Yeah, I mean, I think it's different for a GM because he's not on TV tonight behind a bench. like working it, right?

Like maybe he still might be doing his job, but you can kind of put him on the back burner until that meeting. And that's kind of how Paul Maurice got into that discussion in the first place because they had to ask somebody, something, and it ended up being Maurice. And that gave us an unfortunately interesting fold into that. But he maybe should have had to answer to the media. I don't know. I don't know.

If it's going to be a few days until he talks to Gary or whatever it is and he's still going to be in the club, then maybe he should have to talk to the media. Do you think all those Blackcocks actually have COVID? Good question. Yeah, speaking of which everything is happening. They happen to magically get put on the COVID protocol a couple hours before this bombshell breaks and they would have to speak to the media tonight. I got my tinfoil hat on, I know, but. No, you have to wonder.

It's a good question. It should be asked and we should keep holding these people accountable. There's nothing wrong with asking that question. Jesse, Jesse's giving me a blank stare like, I don't know. I mean, I don't know how like if they, I don't know if they could, if it's even possible. possible in the protocol to fake that they have COVID. But I do think it's, I do think it's fortunate timing for,

for the organization to suddenly have all these players who are now no longer available to the media. Well, actually, you know, maybe my question wasn't fair because I said, do they have COVID? They're in COVID protocol. Yeah. So you could just say, I don't feel well.

You know, we've seen it before. Suddenly players have a groin pull, whatever. It just, it's, the timing struck me as interesting. I was, yeah, I was sorry. talking to Rod Brindamore about this today, and he said there's just no point in sweeping things under the rug because it's going to come out. And it's just, that's how I feel about that. Like if you're, I don't, I don't actually think that they're faking anything. But if they are, there's no point in doing that they're going to be asked about this eventually. Something Katie brought up that, you know, the $2 million fine and she kind of said, well, that's what's what's two million dollars, basically is what Katie was saying as far as a deterrent goes. Will we ever see Stan Bowman with an organization? again after this. This is going to be staple to his resume until he dies. Do you foresee him ever, maybe not even in a jam job in some capacity being with a team, Jesse? Not a chance. And I think that's part of, I think that's part of, yes, there should be a actual like suspension

handed down from the NHL, like a lifelong suspension or whatever you want to do it. But I, in the end, I don't think that's going to matter because I don't see him getting a job. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm giving people too much credit, but I don't see him getting a job after this. I sure as hell hope not, but I worry that he will, just because based on the track record of the NHL hiring the same five people and never branching out from that, especially in these front office positions. And then I'll look at some of the names in the KHL right now. I feel like they're doing rehab stints, and then they're going to be back in the NHL.

And I'd love to be wrong, but then there's, look at names in the NHL that have done rehab since and we're kind of conveniently forgetting about them. I feel like I sure as hell hope that this is a turning point with these type of decisions, but I don't know. Yeah, I'm thinking the same thing. If it's what I would like, I would say absolutely not. I could see in a certain amount of years, you know, as a consultant, as some sort of, you know, really away from the spotlight role, something like that happening. And I'm with both of you guys. I really hope it doesn't. If I had asked you two days ago, what coach has the shortest leash? Which coach has the highest chance of getting fired? I think both of you would have said Jeremy Colleton. Can we agree on that before I move on?

Yeah. I mean, it was it was heating up. His seat was heating up pretty quick in these last few days based on just the record. And then obviously the clipboard incident that like blew up on social media. It definitely seemed trending in that direction. Does that change now? I have no idea, to be frank with you, what direction they're going to go in. I was talking to a potential GM candidate about this, and he thought that they're going to kind of go safe and traditional routes. So I feel like maybe they'll blow it up and just get like a famous recycled coach to get back in there. They're recycled GM too. And I feel like they might just blow up at this point. But it's two unrelated things that are kind of confounding variables at this point, right?

Yeah. And I think it also just adds another thing to their plate if they fire call to. That's why I'm saying I don't think it happens. This organization has a lot going on right now. It may just be easier to say, look, the team is not performing, but we like him as a person. Just let him do his thing while we worry about other things. I could definitely see that happening. That's 100% what I was kind of alluded to.

I look at it as our to do list is. pretty long right now trying to find a new head coach or even just firing a coach. And I know Mark Lazarus and Scott Powers talked about this on their podcast yesterday and they kind of said, well, maybe this is for lack of a better term, a stay of execution for him. They just don't want to deal with something like this right now, especially since, as Jesse mentioned, they're not a good hockey team. This is not a team that's going to make the playoffs. So why give yourself more negative headlines?

I don't know. I just, I could see it extending for a while. Right. And then the other thing, I guess the other aspect of this is like, hiring a new coach is an important, like when you look at just the on-ice hockey side of things, like it's a very important decision that you need to get right if you're the Chicago Blackhawks. And I feel like right now with everything that's going on, there are a lot of reasons that you won't get it right if you fire a coach and hire a new one right now. So it could be good just to put that on the back burner for now. We're going to take another quick break.

I know we've dedicated our entire show to this scandal. We are going to talk a little bit of hockey after the break, including things being very upside down. When you look at the standings right now, I know it's early, but they're very upside down. We'll talk some savers. We'll talk to Leaves playing terrible hockey right now, and fans calling for blood.

Okay, guys, a little bit of hockey talk on this podcast. I was looking at the standings the other day. You've got losing records for Vegas, Colorado. Toronto, Toronto, and Tampa now at 500. But Buffalo, Detroit, and San Jose with winning records. I know it's early. I know people are going to say, relax. It's an 82 game season.

But what the hell is going on early in the NHL? Sarah, since you're laughing at my question, you go first. Well, first of all, Vegas finally put Jesse on the PK. That's what's happening there. But I think it's what's that quote from, I don't even remember. Batman, like, it's interesting when a man has nothing to lose or whatever. That's all I feel about some of these teams early on. And things regress to the main or the median or whatever it is.

I failed math at a certain point. I think I'm loving Buffalo start. And they've had a start like this before before they blew it. There's a lot of pressure. And there's been a lot with Jack Eichol. And I do feel like taking that away from them has kind of made hockey fun again for them. Whereas the Leafs have more pressure than anybody. in the world and they are not handling that well.

So I feel like the beginning of the season is usually a no holds barred situation. So here they are. Yeah. I feel like the Leafs are kind of an outlier in terms of the way I think about it because they haven't gone deep in the playoffs. They've lost in the first round. I think the pressure has a lot to do with Toronto struggles. But I think when you look at Vegas, Tampa Bay, the Islanders, Colorado, I think those teams,

I was watching Barry Trots's press conference after the Islanders beat Vegas. beat Vegas the other night. And I thought Barry Trots had a really insightful comment, basically saying, these teams have played so much hockey. We went to the bubble, that got pushed back, and then we came out of the bubble and went straight into another season. We played that crazy 56 game schedule, straight to the playoffs, and then it felt like a quick turnaround to this season. And he basically said, I think those teams are tired. And those teams have, and maybe not tired physically, but tired mentally. They've just played so much hockey. And then he compared it to, You look at Buffalo and San Jose and these teams that they haven't played much hockey lately,

and especially hockey that meant anything. And I think that they are, he mentioned, like, there's an emotional part of hockey getting your guys going for every game every night. And I think the teams that have played a lot of hockey and won a lot, and these games seem relatively meaningless to them. I think it's hard for them to match the emotional level of teams that are excited about this season and haven't played hockey in a while and really want to get out there. Now, how much is that?

outweighing Buffalo's lack of talent compared to a team like Tampa? I don't know, but when a guy like Barry Trots, who I consider the best coach in the league says something like that, I think it does have some weight. The Buffalo Sabres have beaten the Tampa Bay Lightning and the Montreal Canadians, the two finalists in last year Stanley Cup final by equal 5-1 scores. Now, I don't know about you guys. I'm known to every now and again wager a dollar or two on the outcome of a hockey game. my account doesn't look good right now. I just can't figure out anything that's going on. Now, in regards to hockey in Toronto, which is where I'm based,

you talk about pressure. I mean, we saw Jersey get thrown on the ice in game five, I think it was. They lost their seventh game of the season, which made Twitter just erupt with, ha-ha, Leaps lose another game seven. I've been dealing with, my first job in this business was screening leaf calls on Saturday night after their game on an all sports radio station in Toronto. I know what Toronto fans are like.

That better come with health benefits. That was one of the craziest years of my life because everything this team does is scrutinized. And when you look at the negative press and negative really just everything that Mitch smarter is getting right now, it can't be helpful. And I know you guys are, you don't necessarily follow teams that are as scrutinized as Toronto, but that's a good thing sometimes. You know what I mean? Like, and Sarah, maybe you could speak to this. When when someone on the hurricanes is struggling, they don't have 50 cameras at practice saying, why are you struggling? Yeah, there's that. and then that's kind of the market's own doing.

But then there's also hot take. I don't think Keith is the guy. I just don't, I don't, I saw the all or nothing, and then he gives that speech, like trying to fire them up. And maybe he should have, I've seen Rod Brindamore's speeches, and he calms them down in the locker rooms before big moments. And he's like, we have everything in this room. We do what we need to do day in and day out,

just calm down and get in there. and it's funny because people think Rod Brindamore said, like, that's why players say they want to go through a wall for Rod Brindamore because he's not putting extra pressure on them. He knows the pressure that they have on themselves. And he'll give a guy a kick in the butt when warranted, but I feel like these Maple Leafs are not responding well to pressure. So maybe they need to, like, calm down for a second.

And I just think Keith is not the right guy. That's my hot take. Yeah, I think it's important what's happening in the room. them maybe more so than the media. Like just the team I cover, for example, it's obviously not Toronto media out here in Vegas. It's not anywhere close to that. But I think the Golden Knights, like talking to those players, I think they're more under maybe more pressure than the Leafs are from internally. I was talking to Riley Smith, who's in the last year of his contract. And I mean, the Vegas Golden Knights have shipped out a lot of guys shortly after signing contracts. Like,

it's become a thing where the players are kind of worried that they could be traded at any moment. And I asked Riley Smith, is there pressure in the last year of your contract? And he said to me, when you play on this team, every year is the last year of your contract. And he said it kind of like flippantly. But when I thought about it, I'm like, man, like these guys literally believe, like, if I don't perform, I'm getting traded. And they all want to be here and they all love it here. That's a lot of pressure. And I think Vegas, the injuries, like if the Golden Knights were doing this with a healthy Mark Stone and Max Patch Ready and Alex Tuck and they were one and four, I think a lot of guys would be worried about where they're going to be living by the end of the trade deadline. I think the

injuries have kind of given them built-in excuses to not be as worried. But yeah, I think there are different types of pressure. And Toronto certainly it's more from the outside. It's from the media and the fans and there's just a lot of pressure on those guys. But I think they're like in a smaller market. There are different types of pressure. Exactly. Well, hopefully the world evens out in my sports betting account gets a little more money because it's been it's been. It's been. Bet the dogs. My boyfriend keeps doing just random parleyes because it's like at this point, you might as well, I guess. I'm like, I don't think that's a good strategy.

It's a terrible strategy that I also do when I'm losing. Every now that you're just like, you know what. It doesn't matter what's happening with the games. If you're doing parlays, that's the reason your bank accounts low. Absolutely. Well, no, what I'm doing is you do the single bets. Don't get me wrong. You're betting individual.

But then you're like, but just in case things turned around and I happen to go 4 and O. Let me put a couple bucks on the. parley just to really get the big one out. One more thing before we go, guys, did you read Colin Wilson's piece on the Players Tribune? Yeah, absolutely. I think that was so important and so brave because he did come out saying he had OCD a few years ago, I think it was maybe last year. And then this year he said how that played into his addiction. And I feel like that it's so important to show how that mental illness can manifest an addiction and then how easily these pills are available in the NHL. And I know it was cocaine with him. And it's just kind of like how rampant cocaine use

is among even some professional athletes and everybody. And I feel like the fentanyl awareness with Jimmy Hayes' death is huge. Because a lot of times I know my beloved late mentor colleague, Jason Botchford, it was the same thing with the fentanyl. And it's just like, we need to be proactive and safe with people are going to use drugs. And a lot of times, Hayes family and Bottsford's family didn't know the extent of it. And people are good at hiding it. And I feel like everybody needs to be aware of how much fentanyl is in drugs and how deadly it truly is. Yeah. I think the more people come out and talk about this and the more normalized it becomes to talk about these kind of things and get help, the more guys will get help and the better things

will be. And I, like talking to Robin Leonard on a daily basis, he's obviously been kind of the face of a lot of this about people saying things that are happening and not hiding them. And I think that's one of the biggest points he's tried to drive home is we need to normalize saying you have an issue. And I think that like writing pieces like this and then coming out publicly with things like that and seeking help every time someone does that, it becomes a little more normalized. And I think the reaction to it becomes a lot less. Guys are afraid of the reaction. And I think the reactions have changed. And that's a good thing. I agree. I'm really glad you brought that up because he mentioned it in the piece that the NHL and the NHLPA have done a lot on their end too. Because normalizing is

kind of a two-way street. You can come out and say, I have a problem. But if every player who comes out and says, I have a problem, suddenly get called into the GM's office as we're releasing you. that's they're going to stop doing it. It's kind of like I don't want to compare the two, but concussions. There was a long time where players did not want to admit they had a concussion because they would lose their spot in the lineup. And now we've got the NHL and HLPA kind of going on the other side.

So normalizing definitely is a two-way street. Guys, I know it was a tough show, but thanks so much. I thought, you know, our previous two shows were a lot more fun. This was a little more serious, but it was great talking to you guys about it. Tough show, but an important show. Yeah, absolutely. We need to keep talking about this.

We need to keep empowering the right people and putting pressure on the wrong people to rectify their mistakes. Absolutely. And we've got plenty of great hockey talk coming up. Craig Anderson, the Buffalo Sabres, is going to join Ian Mendez and Haley Salvean on the athletic hockey show. We've got David Backus visiting Greg Custin and Sean Gentile in the Athletic Hockey Show USA. And Mark Lazarus and Scott Powers have more in the outcome of the Chicago Block Cox sexual assault investigation on Lazz and Powers at the Athletic. That was a great show.

I listened to it this morning. Make sure you check that out. So thanks so much for listening to The Athletic Hockey Show. You could follow us on your favorite podcast platform. And don't forget, leave a rating and a review. You could subscribe to the Athletic Audio Plus on Apple Podcasts to get all the bonus content from our entire network. You start with a 30-day free trial.

Then it's just 99 cents a month after that. And right now, you get an annual subscription to the. Athletic for just $3.99 a month when you visit theathletic.com slash hockey show. The Athletic Hockey Show continues Thursday with Ian Mendez and co-host Mark Lazarus. And next week, we are going to be speaking to former NHL goaltender, Eddie Lacks. So be sure to tune in to that. For Sarah and Jesse, I'm Rob. Thanks for listening.

We'll talk to you next week.