The Athletic Hockey Show - Chris Peters from Hockey Sense on World U18s and the USHL, Corey's Draft Confidential, the latest staff mock draft, and more

Episode Date: July 9, 2021

With the NHL Draft now about two weeks away, Max and Corey are joined by Chris Peters from Hockey Sense to discuss World U18s, dive into players Fabian Lysell and Logan Stankoven, and Chris shares insight on the USHL.Also, Corey's "Draft Confidential", the latest staff mock draft and much more!Save on a subscription to The Athletic: theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey, everybody. Max Boltman here again, alongside Corey Prondman for another Friday prospect edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. I'm really excited for today's show. We got a brand new athletic staff mock draft draft dropped. We're going to talk about that. Corey's outstanding draft confidential story, which always has anonymous insights from NHL scouts and executives. We're going to get to those. But first, we are joined by Chris Peters, the fantastic website, Hockey Sense, here with us today to talk about the draft, which is now just two weeks away, Chris. Welcome to me. the show. Thanks a lot, Max. Great to be with you guys. Always a pleasure to talk prospects, especially with my pal Corey. And yeah, excited to be here. I heard that maybe you had already been chosen in this draft. I saw photos of anaheim Ducks jersey at your door. Are you the third pick in this draft? I, well, I mean, I'd be a decent one. But yeah, you know, I mean, thanks to my pals over at Disney Plus for sending me a District 5 jersey after my many internet complaints that because I am a child of the 90s and I was jealous of all the influencers that were getting jerseys, I started complaining.

And you know what, kids, that's all it takes. It works. It works. I liked the bit. I really liked the bit. I was amazed at how long you kept it up. Yeah, that's the part that kind of struck me. It wasn't the bit.

The bit was funny. It was the persistence, if not the excessiveness of it to where it kind of like, it tilted from like, this is funny and cute to, okay, this is a little bit. desperate now. Yeah, well, the funny thing about that was is that they had contacted me maybe about a week after it started. So I kept it going, knowing full well that I was getting the jersey. So they contacted you and they said it was coming or they said it's not coming, shut up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, they did. They're like, here, here, we're going to send it to you. Love the tweets. And then I was like, you know what, to have the payoff of the, of getting the jersey, I'm going to

have to keep this going, but I tried to, try to taper it a little bit. But seriously, like, I, at one point, I wasn't sure it was coming because it'd been like a few months since they said it was. And so I started kind of going a little more frequently again, and then sure enough, it showed up on my tour staff. They were testing you. And yeah, it's amazing. So I, I love it. It is one of my favorite collectibles now. And it has a great story to go along with it, unless you follow me on Twitter. And then you were like, just aided me for months on end. I loved it. I loved it. Well, I want to talk to you a bunch of things that we want to talk to you about today. But one of the first things is a tournament that you were both at, the World U18s. Not, I mean, a good number of people there, but not everybody was there.

And now that we've kind of had this cooling off period where it's not like the last thing you saw in the world, I wanted to see kind of now that it's wrapped, what's sticking with you still from that tournament? What's going to prove to really have an impact on the 2021 draft that both of you two saw at the World U18's in? Dallas. Yeah, I mean, I think that the thing that stuck with so many people, it seems, and me as well, was just, you know, the rise of Mason McTavish and his ability to play a dominant game within his age group to take the things that he learned from playing professionally last year in Switzerland and making himself a case for being a top 10 prospect. I think he was kind of a fringe top 15 guy at that point coming into that tournament. And, you know, I talked to a few scouts that said, you know, they thought he looked far more comfortable, far better at the world under 18s.

And I think just those views definitely had left a lasting impression on a lot of people. It was going to be an important event, but they've also, you know, everyone will say it's just a small sample of a whole season. But for some guys, it was the only sample. And for Mason McTavish, he made the most of it, including the games that he played in Switzerland earlier the year. He just really built off of that. And I think that he's, he left one of the big lasting impressions.

of that tournament. Yeah, and that's like an interesting tournament for that reason. And I think when we come in, you know, all the scouts you talk to say mostly the same thing. That is, you know, it's a two-week thing. You can't overreact. I'm sure, you know, some people are going to move a guy too much off of this. And then what happens after the tournament is a lot of those, you know, predictions happen in that, or the thing they say they're not going to do end up actually happening where a guy like McTavish who I kind of heard fringy top 10 top 12 top 15 and now being discussed like oh will he go seven will he go five will he go higher uh you know you had a guy like Svetchkov in Russia who a federal Svechkov who when I when he was coming in I was

here in like 20 to 40 range and now it's like well I don't think he's going at getting past 20 right now it's a guy like Samu Salman and who came in as like I think a second third round type But now it's like, oh, well, will he go high second round? Could he even sneak into the late first? It's a guy like Owen Zellweger, who was probably being talking about the second, third, fourth round picked by some scouts. He's like, oh, well, you know, will he get out of the second round? It seems unlikely. And there were, you know, a guy like Fabian Leesel, who didn't really, had a good, not great tournament.

What does that do for his stock? You know, you talk to some scout now that are worried about him in terms of like top 10, top 12. guy like Isaac Rosen as a guy I keep hearing more top 20 buzz about in the day since the tournament. You know, Brad Clark's kind of up and down performance, even though I still think he had a really good tournament. These are all things that I've heard about in the week since the event that have definitely become big parts of the draft discourse, both publicly and within discussions with team employees. But is that really like solely about the contained two weeks of the World U-18? Is that more like, okay, Mason McTavish is really good at it in Dallas?

Let me go back and watch his, you know, I think you only still played like 13.4. You could conceivably have gone back and rewatched his entire season, like, over the next few days and just been able to frame it with some new information, right? Like, is it really overreacting to two weeks? Or is it just kind of the platform that gets guys to go reexamine some of these guys? I know Chris has watched McTavich's games, you know, but it's like, if you guys go back and watch those games, it's really rough on the eyes. It's really bad video quality. It's a league in the Swiss second division league where sometimes NHL picks come out of that league,

but it's not a league you use really to contextualize top first round picks. They remember my potential top 10 picks. So I think a lot of the scouts I talk to, you know, they've obviously watched him there, but a lot of it's based on what he did last season in Peterborough, where he has like 29 goals and 50-something games, something along those lines and was very good at that level. Yes, I don't think teams, you know, teams do really comprehensive work on these guys.

They're not making, you know, drastic decisions based on two weeks. But I was just making a point that they're, you know, the one we kind of say, one tournament shouldn't move things too much. And I think you should move guys off tournaments. I don't have an issue with that. You incorporate new information as you get it. But I was making a point that this tournament has definitely changed the perception of some guys in a mild case.

some regards and the significant case in other regards. Kind of off of Corey's point as well is, you know, it is useful for for some guys to have gone back and see, you know, pick up some things from the tournament that they did. And I mean, that's one of the biggest things that I use that U18 for was, okay, we got the visuals now. Let me look at the video with some fresh eyes based on what I saw. And I think it's really important to see these guys in their age group because they're going to play, especially all those guys that played European pro hockey.

year. You know, and I think, you know, you think about guys like, you know, Simon Edmondson and others where you're saying, okay, well, they didn't quite dominate against their age group. What does that mean? How do I, how do I put that into context? So, those are, those are some of the other benefits of, of that tournament on top of the information that you collect while there. But I totally agree with Corey that, you know, you, you read into it as much as you feel as necessary. And sometimes for some of these guys, you know, that, that, that, that last impression is going to be the strongest one. Chris, I think you would have had an interesting scouting experience at that tournament because if memory serves, you were calling some, a lot of those games, all of those games.

Yeah. Well, half of them. Half of them in Frisco. Yeah. And that's, it is, it is a challenge to do it that way. So I was also watching video again of games that I did. But the, the great thing about when you do like color commentary or something like that. And I mean, you look at Craig Button and he does the same thing where he's doing the color commentary for a lot of these.

big tournaments and still trying to be an evaluator at the same time. You watch the game with a different focus. You're looking for things that you can spot that you can kind of help tell the story of the game, but also tell people about the players. And I tried to, my color analyst style for that tournament, given that so many of these guys were NHL draft prospects, was to look at it through the prospect lens as opposed through the team lens. Like, what does this mean for this player?

You know, what are the things that he does that would translate? why are what are scouts excited about those were the types of things that i was trying to explain over the course of it and the nice thing is you know you don't have your your your laptop open in front of you're not trying to fire off tweets i mean cori and i will always kind of will close our lids on our on our laptops and might go go back to it between plays and stuff like that but it was kind of nice to um to just have that focus on the game the whole time and and you have to be hyper focused so i think it actually helped me remember a lot of things from that tournament commit them to memory because you're saying them out loud, you know, so it's like those things kind of stick with you.

But then you do have to go back and rewatch it to make sure that you are seeing what you're saying. You know, like, and does that, you know, when I went back and did my entire draft rankings, every single, before every single capsule I wrote, I was watching video again on these guys just to make sure to refresh my memory and, and make sure that my notes made sense. And but yeah, it was a totally different viewing experience, but one that I really valued. You did great with it. I mean, I thought you were a great broadcaster. Yeah.

Thank you. Yeah. Well, that's not your first experience doing that. Right. Yeah. I mean, like, that's actually, that's what I used to do when I, that's how I kind of snuck into the, the U18 worlds is that, you know, they always needed somebody to broadcast at the time. At the time, really, the only people that cared were like the parents.

Oh. And so they do web streams. And I would go. So I've been, I think that was my sixth or seventh U18 worlds in some capacity. And, you know, I worked for USA hockey for a period of time. And then I also did. Yeah. I was solo play-by-play and analyst in a bunch of the first one,

the last one that I did before as a broadcaster before this most recent one was in 2013 in Sochi, which was the Connor McDavid 15-year-old MVP U-U18 Worlds. And so that was my first Connor McDavid experience live. And it's an amazing tournament. And I love being there. And it's been great to be able to do that. And I'm so excited to have done it this year.

And that, you know, hockey TV let me go down there with that. with that, you know, small amount of experience that I did have. And then, you know, I think that we put together a pretty decent broadcast. And I was, I was thrilled to do it because that was, that was my first plan was to go into broadcasting. And then I realized that my talents might be, might be better elsewhere. But I still miss it sometimes. So I'm glad to get the opportunity when I do get it. Well, always have to Tyler Big's goal call if, even though if you brought some years and take off. Yeah. You, you and the 50 other people that were watching that, um, and Yeah, and the video is actually gone.

I checked for it. But yeah, Tyler Biggs scored a huge overtime game winning goal against Canada in the 2011 U-18 Worlds. And yes, that's the same Tyler Biggs that the Toronto Maple Leafs chose in the first round. And I think I broke every vocal chord trying to scream that goal, goal call. So, yeah, I was a little excited. It wasn't like your other big U18 World's experience. Did you get to meet Vladimir Putin or you got like adjacent? to him at one point?

Well, no, I didn't meet him. He, the tournament in Sochi, he walks right past my broadcast. Well, I was surrounded by, you know, the Russian Secret Service guys. I had to have all my broadcast equipment checked before I went anywhere in the building. But it was basically, USA was playing Russia in the opening game of the Bolshoi Ice Stone, which was eventually going to host the 2018 Winter Olympics. And so this was essentially the test event. So that's why Putin was there.

And yeah, he was five feet away from me walking down the stairs. It kind of surprised me coming down. And I was like, oh, okay, well, this is new. This will be interesting to tell the friends back home. So, yeah, that was a pretty fun experience, though. Unbelievable. Yeah. Well, you mentioned Craig Button a minute ago.

And so the next thing I want to do is something we had Craig and Corey do when Craig joined us a few weeks ago. And that's just to kind of dig a little deeper on a couple players that maybe you and Corey aren't like worlds apart on anything, but, But there's a little gap in where you have them ranked. And it does help that these are a couple players. We haven't spent a ton of time on yet on this show. And so if you kind of just want to let everybody know the two of you, what you see and where

you differ. The first guy is Fabian Lyself. Chris, I think you had him and your rankings at number 12. Corey, I want to say you had him at 22. Chris, I'll start with you. Like, what do you see in Fabian Lyself? Well, I think part of my ranking of him is kind of relative to the draft class is that he has a relatively unique skill set compared to a lot of the.

the players in here. And I still think that that impacts his overall upside. I think he's one of the quickest forwards in this entire draft class. I skill. Great in transition. I hear the complaints about, you know, is he two perimeter? Does he compete hard enough? Those are things that I think that are definite concerns about him and certainly the size is a factor as well. But there are just our so few players like him in this class. And I'm always a guy that likes to, you know, speed is not always going to be the most important thing. Hockey sense and scale and all that matters. But I think that he's so good off the rush and can make so many plays off the rush that, you know, in the NHL where you, you know, a lot of goals are scored in those small area games,

but game breaking players can score off the rush. And I think that that's one of the things that he does well. Good release on a shot, you know, distributes decently well, has good one-on-one puck skills to beat defensemen. And yeah, but I think that, you know, I'm sure one of the things that Corey's going to talk about is just that he needs to do better at getting inside, trying to get, you know, score from the middle of the ice and not just always having to rely on his speed to get past defensemen because that doesn't always help you at the NHL level when they're better and smarter. So that those are the main things. I think the, the speed skill level, the transitional ability that he has and certainly just the fact that there

aren't many players that have his full complement of skills in this draft class. If we were redoing the 2019 draft right now. Where does Philip Thomasino go in your opinion? Oh, man. I think, I think higher. How much higher? He went 24 in the next. I think he's probably a top 20, top, you know, closer to 15.

All right. How much different is Lee Sell from Tomasino, you think? I would say, well, he's not as big, for one. He's like an inch or two difference. It's like Thomasino, like, 6.0? Yeah. Yeah, roughly. Yeah.

I'd say Phil has a little bit more, a little more two-way ability. Does he? A little bit. A little bit. Yeah, I wouldn't say like, yeah, I'm not going to say he's going to be a shutdown guy, but I mean. Yep. I know what you're saying. No, I mean, I know.

I think that's perfectly fair. I think there's a little bit more physicality in this game. Right, right, right. Yeah. The reason why I brought him up is he's the one I think about what I think of Lee Sell and that he's really fast, really skilled. The compete can be in and out sometimes. You know, average-ish size. Draft season, you know, was pretty good, not amazing.

So that kind of, you know, obviously, Tomasino had a really good 19-year-old season. Like his performance in the American League was really impressive. His World Junior, he, you know, had some good games, some not-so good games. But overall, he's an impressive player, a guy that I think, like he said, I think he goes top 20 to redo that draft. maybe top 15 I don't know there's some really good players in that draft

Right But he's the one That came to mind When I'm thinking of Of Leasell And that's kind of Like you could turn that around If Philip Tomasino

Maybe you don't think highly In this draft class If Philip Tomasino is in this draft class As you go top 12 in your opinion The Tomasino in his draft season Not the one you know right now Hmm Um

Probably Yeah Probably I think he'd be close for me. I mean, yeah, he'd be close. For the same reasons that you just think the tool kit's unique. Right, exactly. Well, Thomasino's a center too, right?

I mean, that kind of matters here, right? Yeah, he may be in the NHL. Yeah, he might be a center. Yeah, maybe. But in that draft, you had New Hook, you had, you know, like Brobert and cousins. Right. You know, Björn Foote was a really good skater.

There were more guys that had, Thomas Harley, really good skater for the size. There were more of those options really high in the draft. That's kind of what I think Chris is getting at here. Well, my question with myself, I don't know his game nearly as well as either you too. But for a player who's the selling point is the dynamic offensive skill set, I think I just would want to see a little more product. I know it's the SHL and he's a teenager.

But even if you, you know, in his in the J20 national, he keeps a point per game, but he didn't light it on fire or anything this. I think I just would want to see like a little bit more, and this is a very, you know, I'm not, this is kind of an uninformed opinion, but I think I just want to see a little more on the stat sheet. Does that make sense?

No, and I think that's perfectly fair. I think you, you know, I think there'd be some people over in Sri Lundra that might kind of be nod in their head silently while listening to that and that's probably a big reason why he wasn't promoted earlier in the years. They wanted to see him be a little bit, you know, I watched one of those games and there were some times.

He was really, really impressive, but I think they wanted it to be a little bit more consistent shift to shift in game to game and why he wasn't promoted. I think that's perfectly fair. I also think it's perfectly fair to say his U-18 World Games. He had some really nice moments. Obviously, that highlighted real goal he scored in the tournament. I think was versus Belarus, Chris.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, really, really impressive. There were some, you know, games where he really wasn't as noticeable. But that wasn't the only time he was with the 18th team. They had several camps throughout the season. Sweden because they only can play against each other due to the COVID restrictions.

And some games he was good, really good. And some games he was just okay. So I think the consistency with him has definitely been a trend over the course of the season. Any final thoughts on the South War I move you to the next guy? I mean, I would just say that, you know, I agree a lot with what, with what Corey said on that and the consistency issues. I just think that that's one of those things where I think it comes down to preference, player preference and the different skills that you and how you evaluate them. And I think for me, again, it just comes down to his, that, that unique skill set that he has. And I don't know.

I mean, I just, yeah, I think Corey's a little higher on this draft class than I am and has a little more more faith in some of the players than I do. But, but yeah, it's, it's really interesting to see he's, he is a, he is an interesting guy in general because I think there are a lot of teams that see that electric skill and get really excited, but, but I also see a lot of teams that, that are worried that the competitiveness is there. And I don't think he was ready for the pro game this year. I thought that for Lindo was correct and not promoting him. And then obviously he got the opportunity with Lulia.

But yeah, and I don't think that anything I saw there was like, oh, yeah, this guy deserves to play him. So, I mean, I think that's a lot. There's a lot of fairness there. All right. Next guy is someone who I really like. And Chris, you have him at 23. Corey, you've got him at 30.

That's Logan Stankovan. I don't know if I'm just, if I'm riding cold coffee. field fever right now, but I see the little guy with a great release. And I can't help really rooting for Logan Stankovin. So, Corey, we'll start with you this time. Why don't you have Logan Stankovan higher than number 30? I had him really high actually earlier in the season. I think I had him like top 20.

And that's a guy kind of what we talked about earlier in the podcast. After his U-18s, I kind of creeped him down a little bit because you've got a chance to see him, you know, in person. and the video angle in Camloops can be a little hard to scout sometimes. They zoom in or like a really close. And it's not like picking on Camloops. It's just a reality that every rink is a little bit different, how they use their camera technology.

And with Stanco, but I always saw a tremendous skill, like really, really high skill level, really good shot. And the issue with me was always just how his skating looked. And I couldn't tell if he was actually. quick or just because he's such a fierce competitor that I look like he was moving quick. And I really like his compete level. I think it's really good. I would kind of say, you know, after watching him live, the skating at the 5-8 frame was a little alarming.

Like he's not like not a bad, I wouldn't say he's like a poor skater. I think he'll be a more than good enough pro skater because he's got some elusiveness in him, some small area quickness. but he really doesn't have much separation speed, particularly for a guy that's size. So that concerned me. I would say I wouldn't, you know, Chris and I have watched a lot of Cole Cawfield.

I wouldn't call Logan Stankov and a Cole Cofield type of player. I think he has a really good skill like Cole. I think he is a good shot like Cole. I wouldn't say it's the kind of shot that Cole has. I think he's like, if you want to use that team, he's more of like a Gallagher-Caufield blend. where he's got some really good skill

and scoring, but he's got a little bit of like a, you know, a fuck you and him kind of thing where he's going to be really physical

and chippy, but I don't think he is, I think he's really talented. I wouldn't call him a dynamic, a dynamic offensive type like Cole can be sometimes. So I think, even though I think the skatings

are roughly similar, Cole might be a little better. So he's kind of like, that's why I think he's like, a middle six kind of winger, I think in the NHL. Yeah, and I agree with a lot of that.

I think that, part of, you know, at his size, he does need to have that elusiveness in his skating. I think there's some good agility there. I would agree that the burst is not where you would want it to be in terms of a guy at that size and just, you know, to be able to separate a little bit. But I do think he's one of the, you know, in a draft class full of, you know, average skaters, I think that he's, he's closer to above average, at least for this class. I wouldn't say he's above average for NHL caliber.

So that is certainly something that we would have to think about a little bit more. But I think for me, you know, the hand skills, the competitiveness, the ability that he can close on pucks quickly, he makes problems for defensemen. I think that he, you know, doesn't shy away from that size. The issue is he still doesn't have the physical strength or the lower body strength throughout muscle defensemen and to, you know, to win those battles. So that's going to be a bit of a concern. but I think you look at the skill level. And again, it's not a dynamic, you know, compared to some of the guys that we, you know, even compared to like a LaSalle.

But I think that what I really like about Stankovin is that he's got this really, you know, he's got a good motor. He's got a good drive, but then he's got this great sense for how to score. The release is very strong. He had a huge goal for Canada at the world under 18s and really, you know, showcase that release. and using a defenseman as a screen and, you know, changing the angle of the shot a little bit. So those are the things that he does well. I just think that, you know, in a year where you're looking for, you know,

there's a lot of guys with certain flaws. I mean, to me, the biggest flaw in Stankovins game is his size. And that doesn't scare me as much as some of, you know, the guys that are worse skaters with similar skills. So he's like a tough one in that regard. in that I think when a guy like him comes through, particularly when you have the most recent example of a guy like Coffield, people will just point to and say, you know, call a Coffield,

Alex de Brinkett, you know, this guy's next. And I think it's possible. I mean, I like the guy a lot. I have whatever three in my list. Like, that's a guy I clearly believe in. I think will be a good, you know, a useful, if not a good NHL player. But I also think it's easy to forget the guys who didn't do it. I think it's easy to forget, like, I don't think.

they're comparable players, but, you know, Chris will know him as like a T.J. Tynin type who just kind of like just gets to the American League and just is great there and just can't get out because of the size skating combination. And, you know, it's, it's just risk. You know, at the end of the day, you're making, you know, making bets. You're not, there's no absolutes, even though I'll say, yeah, I think he's in the middle six-four, and I realize there's a scenario where he doesn't do that. And there's a scenario where I might be wrong, and he's Alex the Brinket.

and the guy, the team who dropped him with a genius, and they've got a core piece now. But I think there are risks there. And it's why I just, just from my discussions with teams, I just don't see any way he's going to go top 20, top 25 would probably be like the absolute ceiling for him. But I would guess if we're doing a mock draft right now,

he's like in the 25 to 45 range. Chris, you mentioned the goal at the world youths. Are you talking about the one that like Brant Clark skates it up, kind of leaves him a drop path? and then Stank of Injured grips. Yeah. So that goal just sticks in my mind because it's what I would want to see from a small guy. Like if you're going to be confined a little bit, like if you're worried about the size getting inside

and being able to body guys when you get to the middle of the ice, that's what I want to see is you just rip one from distance and score anyway. That being said, I would say he had kind of a quiet term, particularly metal route up until that point. I actually was talking to some. I was actually talking to scouts in the intermission before. before he scored that of like, oh, I don't know if this guy's going to do it. Like, like, there's some real issues here.

Like, he's got to be killing it at this level kind of thing. And, you know, you can argue what you can argue about him. He had a good WHL resume, for example. But I also would say his U-A teens jumped out at you. Like, oh, yeah, like this guy for sure. But to be fair, not everyone does that. You know, Chris will, you know, very vividly remember the very poor international camps Alex the Brinkett had, for example.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think for for him too, you know, he's a guy that also has a pretty solid body of work from last season as well. And that's a lot of gold. A lot of gold. And in, yeah, and just really, I think that's something that stuck with me. He's been kind of in this range for me all season. And I agree with Corey.

I don't think he's going to go as high as I have them on my list. But I think that's the, those are the chances that you take. And you say, all right, well, if I'm, I'm most concerned about his size, I think that there are other things that he can do. you know, I think he can get stronger. He can get a better lower body and all those different things and, and play under players. But, you know, it's going to, he's got the hockey sense and some skill. And I think that he'll be, he'll be okay.

But, yeah, I mean, I'm not going to be surprised if he slips in this draft because of the size, because of the things that Corey's mentioned as well. I think they're all valid things. And in the end, we're only about seven spots different on a guy that, you know, could have a very wide range of opinions come draft day among teams. Yeah, you guys lists in general are pretty close. I was really looking for major. differentiators. You guys aren't that far off on too many guys. You are the

US World Junior historian there, Chris. Were DeBringt and Connor Garland ever in the same cycle, like at least in the tryout phase? Um, well, I mean, I don't think Connor Garland ever even got an invite to camp. No, he did. He got an invite to camp. I was at there. The, I wasn't at that one. Yeah, I wasn't at that one. Yeah. So he would have been, yes, yes, they would have had, they would have been in the, I believe they would. would have been in that you you 20 year yes yeah they would have been the same camp and they were both cut from that team and both had Connor Garland's camp was was not great either and then there was the kind of thing you're watching like oh this guy's dominating the queue but

but man he's just so small and slow and yeah there's no where there's no place for him on this team kind of thing and I'm not saying and I'm not saying those cuts were unreasonable you can you know they're yeah they won gold that year yeah yeah no for sure Yeah, yeah, I know. And I think, I think those, Corey brings up a good point because those camps and these tournaments really put pace to the test. I think they're, you know, they're typically faster tournaments in situations where you're condensing the player pool to such a degree that all these guys have, you know, higher end abilities. And so when you see those guys in that environment, it really does create a bit of separation, which is why I think you look at a guy like Stankabin. And then he, his, his, you know, his U-18s, and he say, okay, well, how does he do against these, these other guys?

And, you know, there are plenty of guys that I have that played in that tournament ahead of, you know, that are ahead of him on my list. Because, you know, they definitely were able to handle that better. How do you think Brian Clark did with that pace? Fair. I don't think he got overwhelmed by it. Do you think he excelled, though? Do you think he was deserving of, like, the all-star vote? I didn't have them on my all-star ballot.

I would say there was one, I'd say Hamel Salmi was the obvious one and there was no obvious second one I thought. Right. I voted for Kulamans on that one. I know you disagree. No, I mean, I think there might have been three or four Canadian defensemen that got votes. Yeah, yeah, Zellweger. I mean, there were, yeah, they, those are those are guys that deserved it for sure. Yeah, I just, I did not to pick on brand, but I think that's like the interesting one coming out of the tournament is you talked to some people who would be like, oh, he has such a great tournament. And then I talked to some scatjew like, yeah, I don't think he had a good tournament. And I thought he disappeared at times when the games got faster. Yeah, I thought at that point when you mentioned the pace of the event.

Absolutely. And I thought that, you know, it was really difficult for the defensemen in that tournament to stand. Like the guys that we expect to be at the top of the draft. I mean, it would have been, might have been a lot of different story if Luke Hughes was there and available. But, you know, Clark Edvinson, you know, they didn't do a ton that, you know, left you saying those guys are for sure top 10 picks, but I still have them in my top 10. So that's, yeah, but that's still, I think it was a very strange, strange tournament for top prospects.

So I think a lot of guys showed, you know, good and bad in that tournament. Interesting thing for me with Clark was he was the only one in the defensemen that didn't get regular PK time, which I thought was interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, they clearly had their, their stuff. stoppers that they wanted out there. But I mean, I mean, every other one of the D got regular P-K time, is what I was saying, except for him.

Right, right, right, right. Yeah, I agree. I saw that too. Yeah. All right. So this one's not about any one prospect in particular, but Chris, since you do live in a USHL city and the USHL has been one of the leagues that's had, I don't want to call it a normal season, but a more full season than some of the other leagues.

They also, they have some high picks coming through that league. And I just wanted to kind of give you an open, floor here a little bit to talk about some of the talent coming out of the USHL. Obviously, there's a couple of Canadian guys in the USHL or at least one, Cillinger, one who came out of there a year ago in Owen Power who were going to go to the top.

But there's plenty of USHL talent here that can go kind of in the first round. I just kind of wanted to give you an open floor to talk a little bit about the USHL and what you see coming out of that league this year. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think it was a great year for them to, you know, showcase. Obviously, they had a full season, which

a lot of, you know, or as close to a full season, which a lot of teams were not able to do, or a lot of leagues were not able to do. So we got a really great picture of what those players were capable of. And, you know, I think Cole Cillinger making the decision to go down from Medicine Hat to the USHL was a huge, a huge benefit to him because he came right into the league and he proved that he could score goals and score him in a pretty high clip. I think that his skill level stood out in that league in terms of his hand skills. You know, he's a guy, another one of these guys that, you know, Pace is, is still going to be an issue for him.

But to see a guy with his release and his, the very many different ways that he can score goals, that was all on display. I thought he did a great job going there. You look at Matthew Coronado. And for a draft eligible player, you know, his production this year is, is mostly unprecedented. I think Thomas Vannick is the only guy who, as a draft eligible, and he was a little bit, It's a little bit different for him.

But he was a draft eligible player and produced it an incredibly high clip. As far as draft eligible guys, I think the 48 goals that Coronado scored this year is the most by any draft eligible player in the USHL. And that, you know, he played on a great team in Chicago. But I think that he created so much on his own. He's, you know, he's a pretty good skater. He's got some power to him even though he's not a big guy. You know, he's got some good strength. he can drive the net, you know, makes plays off the rush, can play on the power play,

can do kind of anything for you. And so that was really impressive. He has another teammate in Mackie Samiskevich, who, you know, could sneak into the first round. I think, you know, it really depends. There's a wide range of opinions on him, but, you know, he's one of the guys that can really skate. And when he's on the top of his game, you know, he had some consistency issues this

year. But when he's on the top of his game, he's really difficult to stop in that league. and I think he's going to be an impressive player and prospect who will develop at the University of Michigan and keep going. But I mean, I think overall, I think you're going to see a lot of players that are in the second and third round

coming out of the USHL this year, maybe at a higher rate or a similar rate. I mean, really, the league has produced a lot of draft picks and a lot of them are kind of in the later portions of the draft, but still a lot of guys are getting those opportunities. And the other thing that the league did this year is I was

thinking about some of the guys that came down from the WHL not named Cillinger that came to the USHL and found it a lot more difficult. Jack O'Brien was a top guy in this draft class coming into the season in terms of, depending on who you talk to, there were a lot of people that had a lot of high hopes for Jack O'Brien.

And he got kind of buried in the league, honestly. I mean, you know, he did not score very much. You know, it was not a great showing for him, to the point of here's the guy that you were thinking maybe a late second or late second round pick all of a sudden maybe you can't draft them um you know so that is that is something that'll be interesting yeah exactly and yeah and we you know he cross-hannis just got named to the u.s camp in place of mattie veneers and you know he did not have a great performance in the ush-h-l either so it's really a difficult league to play in and i think if you aren't

prepared for that. If you aren't prepared to play against teams that have great, you know, teams that have great structure, they're well coached, they're very difficult to play against. It's a physical league. You are going to get run over. And that's why it makes what Matthew Coronado did so impressive, what Cole Cillinger did, what the national team development program guys did. I mean, you know, Chas Lucius was hurt for most of the year, came back, played mostly USHL games and averaged a goal per game essentially, which is not easy to do. And to get inside in that league,

he was able to do that. Sasha Pastajov had a really good season production-wise. So it's always impressive to me when a player puts up big numbers in that league because they are, you know, it is not an easy league to play in. And there are a lot of teams in that league that make it really difficult on you. So if you can stand out there, and produce, especially at a young age, you really have a chance to do something and move on to college and then maybe move on to the pros.

And I think the league is definitely looking up right now. Chris, I hate to use the term like turning point because I think change doesn't happen in a year or overnight. It's usually gradual. But do you kind of look at this USHL season? And what struck me is how many real good Canadians are going to have USHL ties. out of this draft. You know, obviously the first overall pick, Owen Power, the Canadian who comes to play to USA,

Lund, and goes to play college hockey. You mentioned Cole Cillinger, who you could probably argues in that unique, you know, bucket because he would probably be playing medicine had all the season. But he comes here, and he's part of, you know, and he has, you know, plays really well in Sioux Falls. I really should have seen their record with and without him because I feel like it would be extremely stark.

And those are the big names, but you have a guy like, you know, Archie and Martina, who was one of the top scorer. in the USAHL. And, you know, a Canadian who was going to go play BCHL but ended up playing in Omaha. You have a guy like Guillory Schard, who was going to go USAH all the way,

but he was on Canada as U-18 team. He's going to be, you know, probably a second or third round pick, going to Providence. There's, you know, there's definitely, you know, a really interesting, you know, bunch of really good Canadians. And we've seen that before, like a guy, like a Jaden Schwartz, but I wonder if this season helps move the needle,

not dramatically, but a little bit, to making the USHL more of a competitor with Canadian junior hockey for good talent. Well, yeah, and I think I agree with that, and especially guys like Owen Power who show that there's a path from there to college to being potentially the first overall pick, you know, it makes the college route a little more palatable for some of those players. And, you know, I think it'll be interesting to see how much it affects the CHL compared to the AJHL, BCHL, leagues like that where, you know, we obviously saw Kail McCarr, you know, build a pretty prominent career in the AJHL, wonder what would have, what he would

look like in the USHL and things like that. But, you know, there were guys like Jack Barr is another one who was playing in the BCHL, move to, yeah, move to the, move to the USHL. And so I wonder if it'll be at the expense of those leagues as opposed to the CHL. but I think the players that have an interest on the college track could at least look at what Owen Power did. He went to the USHL at 16 years old, very difficult league to play in at 16 no matter who you are.

Yeah, he was kind of up and down. He was up and down, yeah, exactly. He was kind of, you know, he was finding his way. But he turned that into a dominant second season in the league where he was the best player, you know, probably the best player in the league, best defenseman in the league for sure. And then, you know, goes to Michigan ready

and is able to, you know, be an instant contributor there. So I think it just makes the whole college route. The USHL being strong, strengthens college hockey. It has a big ripple effect as well. And that's true of the BCHL and AJHL and all the leagues where you can maintain college eligibility.

But the other interesting thing that's going to be happening, Corey, is that this whole situation with the college athletes and the name and likeness and all the different ways that they're going to be able to make money, does this, I don't know if it's going to change anything for not, certainly not immediately because it's actually in the rules that if playing the CHL, you're not eligible to play in college hockey. But I think that they'll eventually have to soften that.

And then all of a sudden, it changes the whole dynamic of the power structure within the hockey beneath the NHL. So I think that that's something that I'll be watching as well. But the USHL certainly positioned itself very well as a league to prepare players for a pro career. Right. And the NIL is a good point. Maybe not for a guy like a Shane right now, for a double, but for like the next big Canadian thing, you know,

you have new variables at play with your decision-making process. And you mentioned Kail McCarr, and obviously it would have been interesting to see him go that path on his way to college hockey. But maybe you disagreed, but obviously he had an amazing draft season when I ended up him going top five. But his previous season, I never,

I always heard, you know, people could say he was good. I never was talking to people in the league and say, this guy's going like a top five, top 10 pick when he was like 15, 16 years old. I think that's a unique one. I don't think we've seen, you correct me if I'm wrong, a Canadian who was like an elite prospect when they're 14, 15 through their draft season, go with the college hockey rounds since like the years of like when Taze did it, right? So I think when you see a guy like Power do it, it's like

Taze and Taurus, I think would be the ones that would come to mind. Now it's like, okay, well, and I think the CBAs made that a little difference because as you might recall in the previous CBAs. If you went to college, I think it gave you an extra season or so before you were draft eligible. So a little bit more of, I guess, you know, preparation and time to use that college eligibility. But I wonder if what power did and what potentially NFL is going to do could change the dynamics there a little bit to go with something like the NIL and and what the USHL is providing them. Yeah, absolutely. Totally agree. Awesome. I think that is going to do it for this segment.

But Chris, thanks so much for all the time today, man. You're doing great work over at Hockey Sense on Substack. I'm a very satisfied customer. I cannot recommend it enough for our audience to make sure that they're subscribing. Comes right through email inbox, super convenient. Go sign up. We'll pause the podcast while you do it. But Chris, thank you so much again for coming on today.

Yeah, thanks a lot for having me, guys. Always a pleasure. And yeah, this was great fun. So hopefully we can do it again someday. Awesome. I will take you up on that. All right, that was great. Thanks again to Chris,

for joining us. We're going to move in out to our next segment, which honestly, Craig Custis and Sean Dilley tried to sabotage earlier this week. Your draft confidential came out on Tuesday, I think it was, or maybe it was, was it Monday or Tuesday? I think it was on Tuesday, yeah. Yeah, and they immediately steal it and sabotage it. Absolute active aggression, possibly an act of war, but we're not going to let it stop us. We're not going to let them just completely steal our prospect content. So I, I, I, I want to dive into some of the quotes remaining from the draft confidential here. Yeah.

One of the ones that... What was things that was interesting before we get into that was not just they did that. If they just did it, it's like Craig being Craig. You know, he could be a little bit of a rebel sometimes. But the reason why they said it is that they said that we are, you know, we're crushing them in the ratings right now, which I wasn't aware of. I don't check the ratings. I'm not neurotic about that like Craig is. But it's nice to know that we're really intimidating a lot.

so that makes me happy. Yeah, I was glad to hear that as well. I mean, we're making them sweat. There's no doubt about that. Yes. So we'll see how the next couple weeks goes. But maybe Craig and Shaw just need to step their game up a little bit and stop stealing our content. I think so too.

So the thing that they keyed in on from this particular story was the source. And just to give everyone some context. Corey talked to 20 NHL scouts and executives, I've pulled them to give their kind of anonymous real opinions on a bunch of players in the first round. How many, how many prospects was this? 30? It was around 30 to 40. And it was supposed to be a smaller number and just due to the nature of how I ended up doing things.

It ended up being much longer than it was supposed to be. Which is great. That's great for the reader. They get more. Right. Yeah. I mean, I was trying to give the readers an idea of like the very, very best players or guys who I think have reasonable possibilities to go in the first. round and get some honest thoughts from people who work in the league about what they think about

these players and do so not in a way I think some people thought like it was being overly harsh I didn't personally think that just because frankly prospect evaluations can be harsh at times but not to like slander somebody but to just be you have to be realistic And I think, you know, these guys are paid to be realistic, not to dream on players, but to give honest assessments to their bosses about who these players are and what they're going to be. And, you know, typically most prospects, even first round prospects don't become great players. And typically, you know, most of these draft picks are not going to be playing in the NHL. And I think there's the people who are paid to do this typically approach it with that mind. mindset that it's that the climb to the top of your sport is is really daunting yeah i think that's

reflected i mean even when you look at the top kind of prospects here like there there's some division and one of them you know owen power who we think is is is that is going to go number one overall this is a quote that that sean and craig really keyed in on i think it was the first actual quote in the story the source says basically i'd be surprised if in 10 years you told me he ended up the best player how do you kind of square a quote like that into what that means for how teams really view Owen Power. Does that mean that this source doesn't like Owen Power wouldn't take him first? Or is it just kind of a reflection of the overall uncertainty of the class?

I think there are people who would think that and still have a number one. And let me explain why. I think the people who would have number one but might still potentially believe what that said. And there are going to be, and I will say that there's a lot of scouts who will take a number one and think he'll be the best player in the draft. In fact, I would say there's a lot of scouts who believe that. But the ones who wouldn't would say, you're balancing things. You're balancing what you've seen from a 6-6, highly mobile, highly intelligent defenseman,

who's played great in junior, great in college, great, really great at the world championships, and you could be confident that that's going to be a great NHL player. But there's some other guys in this draft who you could make reasonable, arguments that if things go really, really well for them, that they could pass power in five to ten years from now as a peer player. It doesn't mean they will. It doesn't mean they're the best bets in this draft when you consider what you know versus what's possible. You know, I could see scenarios where Luke Hughes becomes better than power. I can see scenarios where William E. Jackson becomes better. I can see scenarios where Ken Johnson becomes better. But they're not

first on my list, Owen Power is, because at the end of the day, I think he will be the best player from the draft. But I also am not going to sit here and say, I think there is no way he isn't. There are definitely a lot of players that I think are close enough in pure talent level that have, you know, I can definitely see a scenario next season where Ken Johnson puts it all together. He pops, wins the Hopi Baker, plays NHL next to the season after. and it's just an absolute stud. It doesn't mean I think that's going to happen, but it's definitely possible. Yeah, I almost look at it like a math problem.

Like if you told me that there's a 30% chance that Owen Power ends up the best player in this class, people might go, oh, well, you're going to take a guy with only that much probability at any of the best player at number one. But he might still have the highest individual probability by a considerable margin. It's just that you're saying one guy versus the field. Like in almost anything, you want to take the field with those kind of odds. Right, but you can't get to go up to the draft. podium and select the field.

That's what I mean. Yeah. So that'd be great if you could. You'd just get all the players. Yeah. No. We'd have an issue signing all of them. But other than that, but I get all you're saying.

I think, but there's some quotes in there that were also very complimentary of power. Absolutely. You know, there's, there's, and that's, I think that's kind of what I was trying to show. I wasn't trying to pick on individual players. I was trying to really show to the readers the debates that really ensue. in draft rooms on all players of all talent levels. And it's not just isolated to this draft. This happens in every draft.

There were guys who picked apart Dahlene and Jack Hughes and left for enere. And all your other favorite guys who you think were no doubt studs when they were drafted. These happen all the time. Yeah, on the upside of things, like, you do have one of the quotes that kind of acknowledge is like, look, Victor Hedman's offense came later and the same thing could happen with Owen Power. And then there's another quote that I think really is what the crux of it would be for me if I was a decision maker in this draft. One of the quotes, I have a hard time imagining once an NHL coach gets their hands on that they won't play the shit out of him. To me, that's the whole thing.

Like, you're drafting a player that you can confidently put out on the ice for like north of 22, 23 minutes a night in hard situations and they're going to do good things. Give me that all day. We're recording this on the eve of Tampa Bay winning their second championship in a row. And Victor Hedman looking like an absolute monster. in some of those games where it just, you know, just shuts down so much of what Montreal was trying to do. But I think it's easy to have a short memory and forget that those first few seasons that Victor Headman was in the league, you know, he did not look like the headman we know today.

Doesn't mean he wasn't a really good player. But there was a lot of, like, if you might recall, there was a lot of like headman, Tavares, maybe Dushan, arguments going into their draft year. And in those first few years, it was like, oh, it's clearly Tavares. Like, you know, like, you know, we respect to headman. It's clearly Tavares. Now it's like, it's the other way now probably. I mean, he didn't crack 30 points until he was 23.

One of us a lockout season, but he didn't crack 30 points until he was 23. Yeah, no, development is in a straight line. And I think that's what that quote was trying to get at is that, like, you know, there's a lot of the job's projection. The Evanson quotes got a projection a lot too. You had a lot of conversations with the NHL people about those two guys and that, you know, it's not always about what they've done now, what they're going to do in the future.

And I think you can't just go completely one way, ignore all of the current information. But it's definitely a balance. And there are certain things that project better into the future than others when it comes to attributes, particularly when it comes to size and skating. So that is definitely the balance. So you mentioned Edvenson. I loved his section because I love when the sources disagree. And his is like the best example of it.

There's like four quotes in a row. One of them is like, he's a study, he's going to be a star. The next one, I think he's overrated. The next one, I think he's going to disappoint people if he goes in the top five. The next one, he's like a gazelle on ice. Like, I love the variance in just four quotes there on what four different people see when they look at Simon Edvenson. To me, like, that's the whole game, because these are the players who can change the look of the whole draft depending on where the teams that love them are picking and where the teams that really don't love them are picking.

And it'll change the look on the draft depending on how they pan out to, you know, if Edvenson really hits. Like if he becomes what's one of his biggest backers thinks he is, which is like a potential like top pair, maybe even like a number one defenseman kind of thing. That's a huge piece. Now you're talking about, oh, it's power and this guy. You know, we'll see what happens with Luke and Clark. But like now you're like, oh, there's these two like stud, stud defense prospect. You know, you're looking at like the the Doughty Petrangelo draft again kind of thing. But if he doesn't and he goes top five, it's like, oh, well, maybe it's 2012 again.

you had like guys like Griffin, Meinhardt go there. So that that changes the complexion for sure. And his division, I think, is reflected in just how his season went. And a kind of player he is where his season was, you know, it was good, not great. And then he had, but he has this toolkit where it's like, well, he should be great. And I think that's where the interesting and debates come from. And the debates, I think is one of the best parts of this lead-up into and pass the drafts.

Yeah. So two guys that are in this that we haven't spent it. We did our center deep dev. We did our defenseman deep dev. We didn't really do one for the wingers. So I did want to ask you about just a couple of the kind of the true wingers that we have projected that we haven't spent that much time on. And that's Dylan, Genther and William Eklund. With Eklund, one of the sources called his skating dynamic. Another said he had the it factor. But a third kind of noted that it's not elite speed at his size. I guess I want to ask you, like you have Eklund pretty high on your list. Is the only concern the size? Is there something else? Like, why would Eklund not kind of creep up a little bit higher? Yeah, that's a great conversation. I mean, that's a great question. I had this conversation. I already, who was somebody actually yesterday about this very topic?

And that's the kind of thing where I think because of his production and his highlights with the skill and like the kind of things he can make a kind of plays he showed in the SIGL, I think there's a public perception. Like, well, why is this guy not being discussed? is like a no, no doubt, top five, top three guy. And I think there are definitely some, and I'm sure someone will say, well, it must just be the size. That's just people overrating size again. And that might be true, but I definitely know some scouts who have some hesitations on taking him in the top five.

Because they see, like you said, it's an undersized winger, and they don't think the skating, particularly the speed is. It's got good edges. It's great edges. And I think that's where the issue is, like they say, like great small area quickness, but doesn't have the pull away speed you would like if you're drafting a 5-10 winger in like the top 5, top 7. Doesn't mean they don't think he's a great player. But that, you know, when you look at what the alternatives are, the great defensemen that are available, some of the more physically gifted forward that might be available, a goalie like a Esper Walsett that might be available. Um, that's where I taught to some, not all scouts, but some scouts who get a little bit of Colch feet on where we're talking about taking him.

It's why it wouldn't surprise me at all. And I, I, if I believe in my last mock draft, that's where I saw on him, that I think he will get outside the top five, even though I haven't rated third overall. And I, and I'm not going to say here, I feel confident about it. He wasn't, you know, third overall for me all the way. He kind of fluctuated for me throughout the year. And I had to kind of like slowly warm up to the idea. of him in that range.

But that's the one guy where, like I said, I think there is a public question of like, why is this guy not a no-doubter? And it's like, well, that's, well, that's what is people are not convinced that he is like Tim Stutzloff, for example, who is just like this ridiculously good skater. They just think, yeah, he's a pretty good, elusive, not overly quick, small guy kind of think. Where are you out on his shot? Because that's the other thing, like, when we compare these two wingers, Genther and Eckland,

Like, it seems like Genther's regarded as having the better shot. Is Eklund's notably, like, does it deviate from average notably? Or is it just Genther's pretty good? Yeah, I just don't think that's, I don't think it's a variable for him. He's a playmaker, I would say. And for Genther, for Genther, it's not just his shot. I think with Genther is, he just has, like, every NHL attribute. Yeah.

Like, he just does. Like, it's not, I don't think with Genther, he is top five in the draft in any one. one attribute. He might even not be like top seven in any one attribute, maybe the skill. But, but I think unlike Eklund, he checks every box. NHL skating, NHL skill, NHL hockey sense, competitive in this goal scoring abilities, size. Like he has, he has all the, and great production to go with all those things. Mine June, a weird, you know, COVID, WHL division, limited sample size kind of thing.

But that's the difference there is he looks. like he looks like a guy who's going to be, you know, right into a top six, maybe a top line guy. That's kind of what I'd project him as. Whereas Eklin, there is, oh, let's see what happens when we get to the NHL and he has to play, you know, play that way there. And we think it'll work, but maybe it won't, which is, there's some people who think he'll be an absolute stud in the NHL, but I was giving you the pessimistic mindset on where

the differences are between the two of them. So one of the quotes on Genter from the piece is, I wonder if he's in the, in the NHL he's a primary driver of a line, or is he more of a secondary guy who needs a top center to create the offense? Seeing that you have him as your second player in this class, I'm going to give you, so I'm going to pretend that I'm this source right here, and I'm going to give you the chance to sway me. Why is he a primary driver? I think if you watch the U18, that's where that's where that mindset was coming from, because Shane Wright did so much of the work for that line. And I thought, Genter, he was really good, I thought, on the tournament, but he wasn't great. He didn't jump out at you and be like the leading guy that kind of carried Canada to the U18 gold.

But I think if you watch him in Edmonton, both this season and last season in the WHL, I see a lot of that. I see a guy who can be the guy who takes the puck, brings it up ice, makes the skill play through guys, is the guy who runs the power play. I've seen that in WHL, but I'm also not going to sit here and say he's a no doubt or going to be like a first line driving player in the NHL because there are, I can't say, like, his skill set's unreal.

Like, there's not like unreal, unreal skill kind of thing. And if you put it in like the last year's draft, he wouldn't be two. It wouldn't be much lower than two, but he wouldn't be two. I think that's a, the distinction is for me. usually happen at the top of the draft with that stuff. I'm not a big believer that like drafts, the body of drafts are overly different when you, when we really get into like the 20s, 40s, 40s, and particularly beyond that.

But at the top, that's where the differences happen. So like that's kind of for me. Like he's a two, but he's probably a soft two for me in terms of where he is on my list. These are the insights you can only get when you get it straight from the source. You can't get this on the Tuesday episode of the show. So just keep coming back here, no matter how many times they try and rip us off. That is accurate. All right.

So the last thing for us today, we had our latest athletic staff NHL mock draft came out on Thursday. That's our first full first round. So you're definitely going to want to check that out, especially if you're a team, a fan of a team who is not in the lottery. One of the things that jumped out at me, and I know you referenced this at the end of the story,

is how few defensemen went to the staff mock draft? I think it was only six. What do you think went into that? And I guess what's a more realistic number of defensemen that's going? I think more than six. are going in the real thing. Yeah. So, you know, peeling back the current here a little bit in how we do that process is when

we're starting to make the picks, I will send out a pool of players that I think have a reasonable chance to go in the first round. I don't limit the writers to saying you should only pick from these guys, but it's a recommendation and just probably being honest, they probably don't want to go away from their recommendation because they trust me to just give them the names and they don't probably know these guys that well. So I gave them a list of, I want to say, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten defensemen that I thought had reasonable chances to go in the first round. And only six went. The four big ones, Owen Power, Luke Q, Seven, Edmondson,

Brian Clark, and Corst & Coolman's from Brooks went. And the other one was Carson Lambe was from Winnipeg. Relatively consensus, first rounders at this stage. But there were some other guys, like I think Daniel Chaka will go in the first round. We've discussed him already on this podcast several times. Didn't have the best season, but I still think 6-3 with his feet and a good enough hockey sense is someone's going to do it. And I just historically, it's usually, I want to say, between 7 to 10 defensemen on average

going the first round. I would say it's around that 8 to 9. mark-ish, if I have to, like, guess. So six would be really on the low end. And it's kind of funny when you think about, I think, the public hype of the traffic coming into this year, what this is the year of the defenseman. That's right. And it's like, oh, we just did a, all of our writers had their picks of all the best players.

And nobody wanted a defenseman. So, you know, it's why I'm always, and I think there are going to be some defense. I think Jake y'all go. I think Shy Boyham could go. I think Carol Krasana. Stanislaus' disposal, I've announced. Those are all guys who have reasonable chances to go in the first round. But I think it's interesting, you know, I say this over and over again and no one ever listens to me.

But so it's fine. It's fine. Nobody usually listens to me for good reasons sometimes. But like it's really hard to project a draft a year, a year out. So much changes, even in a year where guys aren't playing that much. Never mind in a year where guys really do play a lot. So, like, I always get a lot of questions of like, well, how does this draft, you know, rate to next year's draft where next year's draft is even less information because you have like, oh, HL age group that haven't played a single high level game yet. And it's like, oh, you know, let's see how the next 12 months go.

You could have a good idea. Like, I have an idea of who I think the top tier is for next year from what I've seen, but I could be way off. You know, we'll see how these guys do when when their international camp start in the same. summer and then they get going into their club seasons in the fall and and and carry through throughout the season. But yeah, that was something I've noticed and I think will be different. I don't think some of the fours that went there towards the end. I think a guy like Jake, it would go ahead of a couple of them.

So one of the things that makes this a fun mock draft and one of the reasons I think people should go check it out is at the end of our mock, Corey sends it to the staff to the NHL scouts and gets their, gets their feedback. And I think I'm starting to pick up on what the scouts are going to criticize. And I think early on it was pretty clear that one of those things was going to be the goalies. I don't think either goalie went until, I want to say, Jeremy finally took one at 17. Yes, St. Louis. And so the scouts, they criticized.

One, one didn't think we were too far off. But in general, I think it's fair to say that, you know, we probably have the goleys a little later than they really will. But I think there's some logic to it too, because once you get to pass, like, I think number 12, I think those teams from 14 to 16 aren't going to take a goalie, considering that the young goalie talent they have in their organization. So there is some part of this that's like once you're at 13, you're really at 17. You know what I mean?

Yeah, maybe, maybe not. I think there are some organizations that will share that mindset. And just from discussions I've had with people over the years, I'll say, well, we have this guy, we're not taking him just because we feel like there's a reasonable good enough skater at that slot that we'll take the guy. But that being said, I think it's also, you can go way back in time here to Carrie Price's draft year

and recall that Jose Theodore was coming off an MVP season right around, not right off it. It might have been plus a minus like a year or two. And that was right around when they took Carrie Price fifth overall. And I think sometimes there'll just be scenarios where they're like,

we just need to take the best player at this drafts. lot and not sacrifice value. And I think that will at some point happen, even if it's not the number one preference. And I see this angst in our readers. I see it in our writers. And I see it when I talk to scouts, where they come to taking the goalie high.

Is you see some scouts are really excited to take that guy. They want, they really believe in either Esper Walser, Sebastian, Kosa, or both. But there's others, whether it's the, again, the scouts, the media, or the fans were like, is there nobody better? Is there nobody else that we could take at this pick? Like we, especially when you're picking high.

Like we need so many things. Like is there, is there not another guy that we could take or there's not so much risk baked into this pick into it's already a risky endeavor when you're drafting teenagers?

And I'm sure someone with the argument, well, Vasselowski, you know, and that's in Carrie Price being an exactly cuffed finals. Like, oh, that's true. But, you know,

there's, there's a history there of sometimes it works and sometimes it really doesn't um of course the same thing can be said for skaters too but goalways is different degrees um so i get where that angst comes in by the end of the day i think you're going to see a guy like waltzed with exceptional hockey sins who has been really you know impressive versus men world juniors at the junior level the guy that's jacchencoso is a freak athlete six six super athletic great numbers like there's going to be a point where you're going to get a skater on the list and you'd be like, eh, like, he's nothing special.

These guys are special. They're the pick. That that's just going to be the process for teams. But I do think doing a mock draft, one will definitely go top 12 or top 13, possibly both. But I would say both will probably be gone by 17 at the latest. All right. I mean, I was going to take one if it got to me with my second pick for the Red Wings at 23. But the whole way you're very gracious of you.

Yes, that's right. I'm a friend of the goalies. Yeah, that's right. All right. And then the other thing that stood out, you made this point at the end of the story. So last time, I think it was Mason McTavish gets to nine.

And the scouts say, no way Mason McTavish gets there. This time, that player is William Ecclund. And you make the point of, okay, well, really, if there's this group of nine skaters,

whichever guy goes ninth, we're going to say, well, how does he get there? But I, when I was looking through the comment section on this article, it was particularly insistent today that there's no chance William Meckland should make it to nine. So I just wanted to go right to you.

How ridiculous is it that William Mecklin makes tonight? Is it totally implausible or is it just, hey, someone has to happen? I mean, how egregious is that in this mock? No, it could happen. I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it could happen. I just, and I know there are some really big William Eclan fans out there who are going to be texting me right after this or sending me tweets and being like there's not a chance in hell that happens. But there are some really big.

I mean, Eminson fans are some really big Mason-McTavish fans or some really big Brant Clark fans and Luke Hughes fans and Kent Johnson fans and those guys who are the big fans may not be the biggest fans of some other guys. And when you have a grouping, somebody has to go nine. So it's, it doesn't mean those guys are for sure all going in the top nine. The draft has a wonky process. Yeah, Walsett could throw that whole thing off. Wallsted, maybe a guy like Lucius, maybe a guy like Cole Cillinger, Matthew Coronado.

There's, you know, maybe, you know, whoever else, you know, the draft is on a certain process and everybody can see things a little bit differently, you know, through their own individual processes. But, presuming, just for the sake of the assumption, we have a group of nine and it's tightly grouped, that's just going to be a reality. There's going to be some people who will think it's insane that Willard Neckman goes nine. It's going to be some people who will think of it insane that Kent Johnson goes nine or that Luke Hughes can get to nine.

There's all those kind of scenarios out there. So last time, Drans proclaimed himself the winner, Thomas Drans, or Vancouver Canucks writer, who wins this mock draft? I don't want to say it's Thomas Grants because he doesn't really get to make a decision here, does he?

Like, he just basically just takes whoever the big nine is left. It doesn't really take a whole lot of thought. I feel like he's giving us a little bit too much of a back pat here. But I appreciate where he's coming from. Like, you know, yeah, I respect, I respect the effort there. I would say, just based on my list, my ranking, I say, you know, Eklon getting the nine is impressive, but I think co-sigging all the way to the Edmonton Oilers would be

a big, a big haul for them to get not only like the Edmonton Oil King guy going to the Oilers, which would be, you know, a pretty, you know, interesting story. But just to get, you know, that, that's like. the clear thing in their organization they're missing right now is like a guy who could be that absolute like, you know, real top-in athlete in net to go with their great skaters. They have some nice, some good, young defensemen, like a guy like Brober coming up. But they don't have, you know, both on in their system, particularly, you know, the goaltending question. So that that was one that stood out to me of like, oh, this scenario played out.

I think Edmonton would be really, really happy with that. All right. That is going to do it for us today. Thanks for listening to this episode of The Athletic Hockey Show, Prospect Series. I want to thank Chris Peters, again, of Hockey Sense, for joining us. Great insights he shared and a great guy. Please also follow the Athletic Hockey Show on your favorite podcast platform and leave a rating and a review. If you're enjoying it, that really helps us out.

And annual subscriptions to the athletic are just $399 a month when you visit theathletic.com slash hockey show. You're going to want to get in on that so you can keep up with all of Corey and Scott Wheeler's coverage in the next month. If you get the subscription, not only can you read the content before we talk about it on the show, you can read the content before Craig and Sean steal it for their show. You can go direct to the source. So that's what you're going to want to do. Theathletic.com slash hockey show. We'll talk to you soon.