The Athletic Hockey Show - Connor Bedard exceeds expectations at World Juniors, Canucks go off the rails, and looking back at a ten-player trade between the Maple Leafs and Flames

Episode Date: January 5, 2023

Ian and Sean discuss the World Juniors tournament, and with Connor Bedard excelling, could we see a wild race to the bottom for the #1 pick in the draft? Also, as the Canucks go off the rails, if they could be a late entry into the Bedard sweepstakes. Then, as Chris Chelios and Brian Leetch go back to back in The Athletic's NHL99, who would you take at their peak? To wrap up, which team could be last to get an outdoor game in the mailbag, and a painful jersey memory for DGB is brought to light in "This Week in Hockey History".Have a question for Ian and Sean? Email [e-mail] or leave a VM: [phone]Save on a subscription to The Athletic: http://theathletic.com/hockeyshowSubscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowCancel unwanted subscriptions – and manage your expenses the easy way – by going to http://RocketMoney.com/HOCKEYSHOW Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. Welcome back, everybody, and a happy new year. And welcome to the Thursday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show, the first one in 2023. It's Ian Medi-Shawn McAdoo with you, as always, on a Thursday. And this is one of those full disclosure pods where we need to let people know that as we're recording, it's Wednesday night. And I'm sure that you've probably got your TV on, Sean, Canada, USA,

You got a screen going where you pay attention to the game, right? Absolutely. And I will be spending 90% of my attention on that. So if you hear me reacting either positively or negatively in a way that does not feel like it aligns with the topic, you can probably go back and like figure out the exact time points based on what was happening in the hockey game. Yeah, exactly. And so, hey, you're giving us 10% of your attention. That's pretty good.

I didn't say we're the other 10% of the attention are going. That's right. I just said 90% of it. Yeah, that's true. I'm just inferring that. You know what we should have done? And I'm only saying this because as we're recording Canada is up four two on Team USA.

How did we not come up with a friendly bet with the Tuesday show? The Tuesday boys with five Zs. No, they would have, they would have ducked us or they would have been throwing so many odds and all of this. I mean, this is the shtick right now, right? It's that the, you know, Americans only pay attention to the world juniors if they beat Canada. And otherwise, they will claim that they never cared about it. Whereas Canadians care all along right up until Canada's out and then we stop caring and pay no attention.

The rest of it's almost, it's, you know, we're sort of flipped on that. So, no, they would have, they would have been ducking us like, I mean, they wanted no part of that. none. I thought, I thought you were going to come up with some sort of boxing analogy or something. You know what I was? That's what I was trying to do. And I was like, I can't think of a single boxer. I was going to go Mike Tyson. And I'm like, that's like, like, I feel like if you have to go back to the late 80s, that's, that's, uh, that's right. I don't know, who am I kid? That's a new policy for me. That's right. Wait, will you hear our Leon Spinks material. It's, uh, exactly. Yeah. They would have been ducking us like Stu Grimson and we were early 90s, Wendell Clark. How does that? Does that

work. There we go. See, bring it back to the early 90s. See, that's a little bit more, more recent than late 80s. Yeah, there you go. There you go. All right. So yeah, anyway, we're keeping an eye on Canada, USA. And, you know, I got to tell you, though, that was really fun watching the afternoon game where Sweden and Chetche. I, man, I didn't see that coming where, you know, the Swedes got a one-nothing lead and they're hanging on the final minute. You're thinking, all right, they'll hold on here. They've held on for 59 minutes or whatever. And, you know, Chetia ties it and they win it in an overtime. What a great scene though, and I think it's great for this tournament

when you get those types of countries getting to the gold medal game, right? Yeah, I mean, it does help to spread it along. I mean, this is an issue in international hockey and we beat up the women's game over it. And, you know, a different situation where, you know, in the women's game, it's really the two countries head and shoulders above the rest. But the men's game has a little bit of that. You see it in this tournament, certainly,

where the powerhouse teams are just rolling over some of the smaller countries with less well-developed programs. It's nice. Yeah, you never wanted to feel predictable. You never want it to feel like you're just, you know, it's always going to be the same teams or the same outcome. So it's nice to mix it up a little bit. Okay.

It's nice, but let's be honest here speaking as a couple of guys north of the border here. If the Americans win this game, they come back, they beat Canada. Are we, are we tuning in for USA Chetia? What world juniors? I don't even know what you're talking about. Yeah, exactly. I don't, was that this year? Okay, sure, whatever.

Man, you know what, though? I only watch the Olympics. Unless we lose the Olympics, then I only watch the World Cup. And if we lose the World Cup, I only watch the World Juniors. It's brilliant how it all works out. The cycle, it's just the perfect cycle. You know, I got to tell you, though, like, I mean, the Conor-Badard coverage, the athletic, Shane of Goldman's had some stuff, Pierre Lebrun this week.

it's been unbelievable. Just to watch this young man do what he's doing on this stage, it's pretty well known that what he's doing is, you know, pretty unprecedented for a draft eligible kid. This isn't a 19-year-old coming in and dominating the world juniors. This is a kid who hasn't even turned, you know, 18 and just dominating. And, you know, it's got me wondering,

and I see LeBron's piece this week, and I see the chatter out there, that if you're outside of the playoff spot by a healthy margin, and we're talking to you, Columbus, in Anaheim, in Arizona, and Chicago, and probably Montreal now too. Is your fan base just going all in on the tank now? Like after watching this World Junior,

are you just all in on the tank? I mean, honestly, he has been so good in the World Juniors that even the teams in the next tier, the, you know, the Vancouver's and Phillies and those teams where you're looking at it going, you probably aren't going to be able to get down to number one. I mean, Chicago's running away with this thing. Chicago came into the year with a plan.

You're not catching Chicago. You're probably not catching Anheim. But even if you, it's at the point now where, all right, if we go from eighth to seventh and we bump up our lottery odds by 3%, that feels worth it to root for at this point. And I've said it all along. This season has a potential to get silly down the stretch. and it is the potential to get really ridiculous because you're going to have a bunch of teams

with absolutely no incentive whatsoever to try to win it. And what? You're going to sneak into the playoffs and play the Bruins in round one absolutely get your doors kicked in? Or do you want a 3% chance at Connor Bedard? I know which one I'd probably prefer. It's of all the non-playoff teams,

it's going to be all of them going for lottery odds except for one, and every Montreal Canadian fan knows which one team that is because it's the Florida Panthers sitting there without their first round pick. And boy, if Ben Chirot thinks we were tough on him at the deadline last year,

oh my goodness, can you imagine if he goes through life being the guy who was traded for the Connor Bedard pick? I mean, that would be, ugh. Because that's not a lot of written. No, Florida fan. It's not lottery protected.

It's not top three, whatever. Nobody would have ever even imagined that it would have been, right? I mean, there's just absolutely, you know, you looked at a Florida Panthers team that was on its way to the president's trophy last year. And, I mean, look, a lot of us didn't like that trade. You know, a lot of us felt like the bencherod hype was out of control and that it was a situation where they gave up way too much to get a guy who wasn't going to help them as much as they think. thought, but there's absolutely no way anybody was

looking at that saying, oh, well, that's they're not going to you know, they've traded away Connor Begarde. Like there just is no chance that that felt plausible. But here we are. And the crazy thing is

the 2022 pick was first round, was top ten protected. There was some sort of something in play there where because of, you know, some other trade, if they had finished in the bottom 10, in 2022, then the pick rolls over to 2000. It's this complicated formula, but it doesn't work out to their,

to their favor. And Montreal fans, oh, my good. I mean, to have two horses in this race has got to feel great if you're, if you're, if you're abs. Well, you know, it reminds me of when San Jose gave a first rounder to Ottawa and didn't lottery protect it because you thought, look, the sharks, man, they were a perennial playoff team, right? They were, you know, they were a team that we just always expect, right?

In 2019, they went to the conference final. We just always assumed that they would be a playoff team. And maybe if they missed, they'd miss by a hair. Well, they bottomed out in that 2020 season. The Ottawa got the third pick overall from that. And it ended up being Timmy Stutzler. And we're having a completely different conversation about Ottawa and it's rebuild if, you know, San Jose makes the playoffs that year and that pick isn't number

three, let's say it's number 20, right? Different conversation. It can alter everything. The same with the Matt Duchyne pick that Ottawa gave to Colorado, the same sort of deal. And, you know, geez, I'm a Leafs fan. I've seen them do it three separate times in my lifetime where they've traded away first round pick in the future and had it come back to bite them as a top five pick, and all of them turned into really good players. But that should be part of the risk. I'll tell you right now, when I'm commissioner, this isn't a day one thing for me as commissioner. I would really look at banning lottery protected picks.

I would just tell these guys, look, man, you're going to trade the pick, just trade it. None of this top 10 protected. Because this is fun as a fan for everyone other than Panthers fans, obviously. I was good to say. It's not fun for penit. But I mean, this stuff does eventually like to think balance out. And yes, it would certainly potentially result in some teams being less willing to move first-round picks. And I get that.

But this cover your back nonsense, I would almost get rid of it because I'm getting tired of looking down the list of picks. And you see all these traded picks and then they're all protected. You know what? I mean, this is, you look at the NFL, right? this is the year of top 10 picks that have been traded in advance. There's, I think three in the top six or something have already been traded. They belong to other teams. You know what?

That's fun for everyone but those teams. And you know what? Those teams should have been smarter about it then. Okay. You're the guy that loves to go down the rabbit hole of weird history. And we always joke about, hey, we need some down goes brown interns. And maybe we'd have to put them on this or maybe know the answer yourself. Who is the first team to lottery players?

protect a draft pick. Do you remember this? Do you know this? Boy, no, I don't. I don't either. I mean, it's, it's been a while. And I remember, like, the flashpoint for me, I remember when the when the Leafs made the Phil Kessel trade and they gave away their two first round picks, one of which became Tyler Sagan, the other one becomes Dougie Hamilton. They didn't protect either of them, obviously. And at the time, that was not seen as unusual, but people did ask Brian Byrne Byrne about why didn't. Did you talk about lottery protecting the picks? Was that part of the discussion? So it was part of the landscape at that point, but it wasn't something that was so common that people were going, oh my goodness, how could the Leafs not do it? It was still

more common not to protect, and yet it was out there. You know what we used to do? And I would love to have seen this comeback. I was going to write about this in the summer. I never got around to it. Before there was lottery protection, do you remember when you used to see trades in the NHL and as part of the trade, there would be what was called the option to swap? They would basically say that we trade this player for this prospect and this fourth round pick and an option to swap first round picks, which was basically their way of saying, if your pick is better than ours, then we flip. And if if not, then we'll... nothing happens. And it was a fascinating, it was a fascinating wrinkle in trades because you were

basically betting, you know, if I said, hey, I want the option to swap picks with you, I was basically saying, I'm willing to bet that I'm going to finish ahead of you in the standings next year, which is going to make your pick better than mine, which is mean I'm going to want to swap with you. And if you accepted the trade, you were essentially saying the same thing in reverse. We were putting our, you know, a little bit putting reputation on the line there. And there were some fairly big trades that that ended up incorporating that. And you saw that kind of go by the wayside. And part of it is, you know, top 10 protection serves in some way the same purpose.

But it was fascinating. I mean, you could literally trade a player to a team and say, in exchange, I want an option to swap first round picks with you. If your team is better than mine, I don't get anything out of this. I've literally given my player away for nothing. But if I'm right and you're better than you next year, I get that. that higher pick, that might really work out for me. And I remember thinking this summer, like, would it make sense for a team like Chicago to, you know, for example, trade their trade,

instead of trade and Alex to brink it for picks, trade them to a team like Ottawa and say, we want the option to swap first round picks with you. You're basically getting another, another lottery ball to say, you know, if things don't go well for Ottawa or if they happen to win the lottery and they jump up, we want to be able to flip with them. And if not, we get potentially maybe nothing at all in return. I think that could have been a real interesting wrinkle, but these days, GMs are so,

they're so worried about their own reputation. They're so worried about not making a mistake. I don't see it ever coming back. But as far as I know, and I did at one point check with the league on this, nothing has changed in the rules that would prevent teams from doing this. Man, yeah, I'd love to know the backstory of who is the general manager.

Because obviously there's a backstory to it, right? Like somebody got, and again, through, like you said, the Tom Kerver's, Niedermeyer and, you know, all of these, all of these things over the years. And you think, okay, well, why don't you lot of the concept came from the NBA?

I feel like I remember hearing about it in the NBA before the NHO. And I wonder if, if that was, if it was less of a case of some GM being creative and just a case of some GM putting it out there. And, and I would love to see more GM say no on that. Like, no, you're not, especially if you're getting a pick a year or two down the line, say, no, I'm not giving you a lottery protection. Part of what I am trading for is the maybe it's a one and a hundred chance. It's the risk, yeah, absolutely.

But I'm, you know, part of the value that I have seen in your pick is the small but non-zero chance that it could be worth a lot more than we're both projecting it is. And if you want to protect it and take that value away, I'm going to need you to throw in a second round pick. I'm going to need you to throw in something else for me. I'm sure GMs have this conversation on some level, but I'd really love to see, you know, I'd love to see some teams say, you know, it's our, it's going to be team policy going forward. We will not accept any lottery protected picks. You're going to trade with us, you're trading us the pick, and we both live with it. You know, I'd like to see that. But again, this is just purely me as a fan talking. If I'm a GM, I'm absolutely have a whole, whole different view of it because I'm sitting there going, geez, is this guy trying to get us fired? Yeah, maybe I am. Yeah. And, you know, look, Bedard what he's done in Halifax has just been, it's been, you know, mind-blowing, jaw-dropping, you know, whatever you want to say. And it makes you think that when you, you know, you think of hockey in the lineage of, you know, from Gretzky to Lemieux to Lindros to Crosby, to MacDade, that this kid's the next one. Like, legitimately, that feels like the succession line here. Yep.

When's the last time we had somebody of that ilk that fell short? of expectations. Like, have we ever had the person that we tapped on their shoulder and said, hey, you're the next one. And they like went full, you know, whatever, Jamarcus Russell or whoever you want to pick as your NFL. Like Neil Yakopov was never viewed that way. Right.

That's what I'm saying. Rick DiPietro, Patrick Stavvy. These guys were not viewed as that's. I mean, I'm not sure it's ever happened, although the list of guys that would fall into that category has been pretty small. I mean, you could argue that Eric Lindross, on the whole on his career, did not live up to the expectations that they had. And obviously, injuries were an enormous part of that. Maybe the entire story there.

But, you know, even though it's ridiculous to say, right, because he's a Hall of Fame. He went to the Hall of Fame. Right. And yet, I really feel like given all the hype about him at the time, I mean, this guy, if you were to fan back in 91 when this guy. shows up on the scene. I mean, we are looking at him saying, this is Mariel Lemieux, except if he had Bob Probert's fists, and he hit like Scott Stevens. I mean, that's the level of expectations that we had for Eric Lindross. And he comes in, and he's a great player, he's a Hall of Famer, he wins an MVP, takes his team to the Stanley Cup final. And yet,

it does feel like his career ended up falling short. I don't know. I don't know that there's bid anyone else. Part of it is there is a little bit of hindsight bias here and survivorship bias where we look at, you know, there have been guys who've come in with a lot of hype and have had very good careers and because they don't reach that level, we sort of forget about the level of hype. And I'll give you one guy as an example. This guy wasn't a Sidney Crosby, Connor McDavid, Connor McDard, level prospect.

But I would say similar to Nathan McKinnon and Austin Matthews. And that was John Tavares. Remember he came in 2009. He had been in the OHL early. He was one of those guys that we had been hearing about, like Connor Bedard for three years. You'd heard that John Tavares was going to be the number one overall pick in 2009. Remember Brian Burke wanted to trade up for him. There was this talk.

And there was some discussion of by the time the draft rolled around. Maybe it would be Victor Hedman, maybe whatever. But the Islanders one took John Tavares. And again, John Tavares might end up in the Hall of Fame. This guy's been an all-star. This guy's put up fantastic numbers. And yet, given the level of hype, even putting aside how it ended with the Islanders, and I'm sure you wouldn't be able to get an honest answer now,

I wonder if Islander fans would look back at John Tavares and say, didn't live up to the hype. And I'll tell you right now, and this is as crazy as it sounds, John Tavares has had a great career. you know, Eric Lindross had a great career. I'm going down the list of, you know, some of these other guys. If Connor Bedard comes into the NHL and he has a John Tavares career, that's going to feel like an enormous disappointment.

That's going to feel like not a bust. You won't be able to call somebody a bust when they're making All-Star teams, but it's going to feel like, wow, what happened to this guy? This guy was can't miss and he kind of did miss. That just gives you a sense of how. how off the charts the hype is for this guy. Yeah, no, it's amazing. And again, I think we're going to see more teams.

You know what I'm waiting for? I'm waiting for you talking about the second half of the year has the potential to be weird and wacky. I'm waiting for the one game in the back half of the year. You know when teams, you do the rookie lap for your first game and they're like send them one guy out? There's going to be a game where some team has like seven guys making their NHL debut.

I said you're going to say there's going to be a rookie lap. There was going to be a game where like one guy went out to do the rookie lap and the rest of the team was just gone. Like just you hear the bus leaving in the parking line. You're going, oh, is it just me? And look, when I say things are going to get silly. I know, look, we all know, players don't tank. You put 20 guys out there wearing NHL uniforms that are going to give you full effort.

There's never a situation where Jonathan Taves is going to be out there going, oh, I'm going to go at half speed because I really want the Blackhawks get the number one pick. It's not how hockey players are wired. It's not how they play the sport. it wouldn't make sense for them because in a lot of cases that, you know, Connor Bredard might be taking your job in the lineup. So, you know, you're not going to go half speed for them. And, um, but that haven't been said, the roster moves that we're going to see.

I mean, we've already got Chicago pulling away. This is one of those things where, you know, a lot of times when a team's on the playoff bubble, sometimes we say, you know, if they need to make a trade or a coaching change, we go, yeah, you know, if they, yeah, you might want to wait a week or two and see how it goes. But that week or two might be what cost you. playoff spot. You know, you got to move when it's time to move. That might happen with the lottery. We might look back and go, yeah, you know what? Yep. Philadelphia started moving guys, but they just waited too long. Or, you know, St. Louis, boy, you know, O'Reilly and Teresenko both being hurt.

Now you can't trade them for a month. You know, you may not have traded them anyways. And obviously, they're not in the lineup. But if that keeps you from going into full scale tear down, I don't know. There's going to be some teams we look back on. And then the part of this that's so fast for me is we might see all of this tanking. We might see all of this craziness. You're going to see any, you're going to see guys getting shut down with injuries. You know, Patrick Cain's are,

oh, we're being cautious with Patrick Cain. Yeah, sure you are. And you're going to be real cautious with him, I bet all season long. We're going to see all of this stuff. The race to the bottom could get completely out of control. And then we could get to lottery day. And it could end up being that 25th overall was the magic spot.

And I know I, we get into philosophical debates about, you know, if this is, would that have still been if this had happened? But I mean, that's the ping pong balls come down. That's the number that comes up. You look at the chart. You go, 25th is the spot. And that could be, you know, it's, it's Philadelphia sitting there with the, with the golden, because they won on the last night of the season. Some, they beat Montreal on the last night of the season. Their fans are freaking out.

But that ends up being the win that puts you in the right spot. I do this sometimes where I'll look back at the season. that. I'll say if this game it turned out differently, this team would have been in this spot. Maybe no more famous example than we just mentioned him as a bus. Patrick Stefan, what's the only thing we all remember about Patrick Stefan is missing the open net? Well, guess what? His team ended up winning that game anyways, but the Oilers going into overtime gave them one extra point. If they didn't have that point, they would have swapped spots with the Chicago Blackhawks in the 2007 draft lottery. The Blackhawks win the lottery. They get Patrick.

Kane. Who's to say, you know what? Maybe, you know, maybe that butterfly flapping its wings changes, changes something in how the lottery works. But that would have, that would have had the Edmonton Oilers in the Patrick Kane spot instead of the Blackhawks. And then, I mean, geez, the next 15 years of NHL history changes completely based on Patrick Steph on whiffing on an open net. Or it doesn't, depending on how much of a killjoy you want to be, but I did, I really hope we wind up with something like that. And we can look back and say, you know what, this one game, this weird call this strange moment actually determined where Connor Bedard ended up going. Well, I'll tell you, the team that I want to talk about here for a second is we talk about

teams that might get into the Bedard sweepstakes to Vancouver Canucks. And, you know, it's just gone off the rails out on the West Coast. They lose again Tuesday night to the Islanders. And you know what maybe we should do, Sean, every week, we just do a live reading of a Thomas Drant's column. Yeah. You know, maybe that's, okay. I'm just going to read an excerpt.

come in. Have him come in and do the audio recording. Like, let's, uh, let's get him going. But yeah, no, this is, uh, I love, my, my absolute favorite genre of sports writing is local beat writer Carves team. And Drance is very, very good at that. So let's, uh, hook me up. Let me hear it. Yeah, yeah. Look, there's been no lack of material on his part, right? And, and so I'm just going to read a small excerpt. Again, this is Thomas Drans from Wednesday talking about the fact that it's time for Vancouver to maybe, uh, strip this thing down, right down to the studs. He writes the following.

The time has come to tear down this roster. It's a truism in the Vancouver market that this connect side is, quote, too good to tank too bad to contend. As one lower third graphic during Sportsnet Pacific's Tuesday night broadcast put it. Like most truisms,

however, it's a statement that betrays a lack of imagination. This team might be too good to tank today, but it could get there to tomorrow with some work. It wouldn't be easy. Nothing worthwhile ever is, but the moment is fortuitous. The schedule aligns nicely with the cause, and the Canucks have dug themselves a significant

enough hole that they can wallow in it if they're willing to get creative. So his point is, look, there are four points clear of Arizona here. They got Bo Horvatt, why not deal them, get a mix of futures, whatever, and maybe that's just enough just getting rid of a guy like Horvad who's off to, you know, the best start of his career and is going to get a significant payday. That's enough, says Drans, to get them in with Arizona, Montreal, whatever, and be a bottom five team. He's saying, blow this, you're not going anywhere. You got a shot at Bardard, go in on Bedard. Yep. And you know what? It's a good, it's a good point. He's been consistent on it. And I know Vancouver is tough. It's one of those

you know, there are some teams that are tanking. There are some teams that, you know, the roster's just bad. There are teams that you look at like a Philadelphia and you go, why aren't you tanking? You should be. Vancouver is tough because they've got Elias Patterson, because they've got Queen Hughes, because they've got Thatcher, Demko. It feels like they already have some of the pieces. But if you do a full-on tear-it-down rebuild and you're talking like three years down the line,

is that young core still your young core? Or does it become something else? and I understand why they're a little bit like the donkey that can't decide which haybail to go to, but I do like what he's saying, and not just because I'm a huge fan of using the word wallow in any sort of sports column. I like the idea because when you look at like Bo Horvon, be a great example, fantastic player having a career a year, UFA at the end of the year, let's assume for the sake of argument that they're not going to re-sign them. So we all know, of course, if you're not going to re-sign a player in the NHL, we always say you've got to move them. You've got to get something. The playbook here is well established. If you're a team like the Canucks and you've got a bull or about that you're going to move, the playbook's well established, which is you wait as long as you can to get closer and closer to the deadline.

The closer you get to the deadline, teams have more cap space accrued in most cases. If they have a little bit of room, remember that the cap hit of your player is pro-rated. So it starts going down. The cap space that they have starts compounding. It goes up. So maybe some teams that can't afford them today, two months from now, they can make that deal. You get teams that are maybe hopefully more teams emerge that are on the bubble that are maybe going to be a little desperate.

Maybe you look at some teams that are comfortable right now and you hope something happens that turns up the temperature on them. And then just the fact that it is a trade deadline. Deadlines are what move negotiations. You know, some team is going to tell you right now, oh, no, no, we would never move this prospect. But you get them right up against the deadline and maybe they do it. So all of the the playbook here is wait, wait for two months, and then you'll get more at the deadline. But you're looking at this going, okay, but how many games does Bo Horvah win us in those two months?

How many extra points do we get? You even want them to win two extra games. Yeah. You don't even want to win two extra games. Four points, that four points could be the difference between going. in with the eighth best lottery odds and the fourth best. And, you know, this is exactly what I was talking about, the team that's going to look back and say, we didn't move fast enough.

And it's ironic that it could be Vancouver because they were the team last year that made the coaching change that turned their season around. And at the end of the year, they fell just short of the playoffs. And you're looking at it going, man, if they brought in Bruce Brudrow two weeks earlier, they would have made it. But they didn't move quick enough. And now it's the exact opposite side of that same coin. how quickly do you move? And what's it worth? If trading Bo Horvatt right now means that you get less than you would in two months,

but it makes your team four points worse, I don't know. How do you weigh that? And then when you, if they move Bo Horvatt, suddenly does that mean a team like, you know, Columbus or Anaheim goes, oh boy, we better move somebody. And is Chicago really willing to wait that long on Taves and Kane? Obviously, they don't have control of that situation because of the no move clauses. it's going to be fascinating. And it's going to be fascinating to watch a play out.

It's going to be fascinating to watch these GMs detonate their teams. And it's going to be fascinating to watch Gary Bettman sit there and tell us that we're not seeing exactly what we all know we're seeing because he tells us tanking doesn't exist. It's going to be, it's going to be wild down. And I'm always team chaos. You know, people view me as like a team chaos guy. This might end up being too much chaos. I hope it's the fun kind of chaos and not the embarrassing. league type. Well, Vancouver, you know, look, Vancouver is as passionate a market as there can be.

And just go look at the comments on Drans's article, right? I think he's got like 200 comments on there. Last time I look, I think it was like 200 comments. And we're close to it. And it's just, it's, man, there, there's a lot of frustration in that market. And you're right. Like, you say, look, you don't want it to go off the rails or be too, too crazy. I think it might be. I think, but now, but now let's also play this out a little further. Can you have imagine if that's where Conor Badard ends up. Yeah. Oh, if you're Connor Bedard, you're telling me you're not sitting there going, come checking it. You don't have a Google News, Bo Horvath trade alert. Because I mean, that's, I'm sure he doesn't have a team that he wants to go to that he would

talk about, but that he would talk about. That's his team, right? Yeah. That's his team. That he would talk about. Exactly. He's never going to say it. But, oh my goodness, it's got to be maybe on one level, I would think frustrating for him because you're sitting there going, this is my hometown team. Yeah. It could be right in the running. But they're, you know, you understand if you're, hey, my hometown team's a cup contender. Obviously, they're not going to get my, you know, they're not going to be there for me at the top of the draft.

This team isn't. I don't know, man. It would, it would really be something. But, boy, I don't know. How's this French? I know. Badaard's a French-sounding name. I think that that'll be enough for Havs fans, right?

They'll take that. Yeah, you know, again, you know, Badaard grows up in North Van. Like, you know, the only reason why I wouldn't want him to go there, I just feel like the pressure of going home, like, it would just be too much, I think. I think it would just be an unglued.

You want to talk about things being unglued? Like, the neck, this would be like, I'm trying to think, like, when's the last time? I mean, this would be like Mario Lemieux ends up in Montreal. Like, how would Mario Lemieux's career have played out if he's with the Habs? Do you think, do you think Mario Lemieux is a, yeah, I mean, maybe I guess if they have Patrick Waugh, maybe he's a, well, I mean, that's the thing, right? I mean, it's, it's hard to say, you know, if Eric Lindress had ended up in Toronto, you go on

down the line. And I mean, off the, have we seen that in the modern era where a hometown guy from the very start of his career, like before he gets his feet under him, before he sort of gets the lay of the land,

I mean, off the top of my head, I'm sure. I'm not sure. James. Yeah, yeah. I mean, really, right? In other sports, yeah.

I mean, Akron isn't Cleveland, but it's close enough, right? Like, that's, like, you're talking about generational guy guy who ends up in his hometown. Like, that's the one that comes to mind for me. But yeah, it would be like Gretzky in Toronto or Mario, I guess, in Montreal. I mean, look, the counterpoint of this would be you'd say, you'd look at Montreal and say,

a lot of French-Canadian stars in Montreal over the years. Now, you know, not guys that came in with Merrill-Lamue levels of hype. But, you know, Gila Fleur, obviously we're going back 50 years at this point, but Gila-Flur came in with an awful lot of hype behind them and some of the other guys even before the draft. And the argument would be, yeah, you go to your hometown, the pressure is going to be big. Everything's going to be magnified, especially if it's a hockey mad market, which Vancouver would fall in in that category.

But those Montreal guys would show you if you succeed, it's a different level than it could get to. I mean, I'm sorry, I say this as a lead fan. We love our guys. We've got our list of heroes, but the Rock of Richard, the Jean-Bellev, the Gila Fleur, the guys, the French Canadian stars who did it in Montreal, it's just a different level. And, you know, every player is going to be different.

There's going to be some players will say, you know what, I don't want any part of this. Let me go to Arizona. Let me go to Anaheim. Let me be somewhat anonymous. Let me just, you know, be able to do my thing and play hockey. That's all I want to do. But there's going to be others who are going to say, you know what? I want to aim for the very top level.

And that top level might very well be, I want to go home. I want to be the hometown guy who turns the franchise around. I want to be LeBron. Even LeBron didn't want to be LeBron in Cleveland at one point. At one point. But, you know, that's the level I want to get to. And, you know, you become that guy. I mean, you know, we remember LeBron leaving Cleveland.

But we also remember when he went back. Remember that Nike ad of him talking about, you know, this is Cleveland? This is like the Loserville. And I'm back because I'm going to. to change that. Like you can imagine Connor Bred being that for Vancouver or any number of other teams.

Man, you wonder, some guys are just wired differently and they want that. They want to climb the highest possible mountain. You know, we're closing in on kind of the final 25, 30, in our NHL 99 series, we're really getting down to the best of all time.

And I want to ask you about this because this week, back to back, we had Chris Chelyos, Brian Lee. back to back. Two great defensemen of kind of the 90s. And I'm wondering, here's my question for you, just because they ran back to back,

which kind of means to me that they're very comparable in terms of their career arc and all that stuff. If I gave you a choice to have a guy at his absolute peak, are you taking Chris Chelyos? You've taken Brian Leach.

Absolutely. Peaked. Absolutely. I mean, if it's the absolute peak one year, you know, a cup, I might take Leach because I think that around that cup

winning team, he may have reached a level that that Chellios never got to. Chellios did it for so long. And the thing with Chris Chellos is because he played well into his 40s, and I'm not even talking about the comeback with the Thrashers.

I'm just talking, you know, even with, yeah. But I mean, he played well into his 40s even before that. Because of that, A lot of people, when you say Chris Chos did for a long time, that's what they think. Or they think even, you know, remember there were a few years he was being scratched in the playoffs in Detroit. I mean, but you take it just up to when he was 40. I mean, 20 years of him being a dominant defense, in a level that I don't think Brian Leach can match.

But peak of their powers, best season, I might take Leach over Chellios. Yeah, man, Leach. I mean, Leach won a Con Smyth too, right? and, boy, reading both of those articles was great because it reminds you. Chelios was more about,

yeah, coming back at that stage of his career in his late 40s and just a remarkable freak of nature. But, you know, Leach in his prime, you know, Josh Cooper's piece on Leach was just phenomenal. Looking at, like, yeah,

one of the great defensemen of the 90s there. And I'm really excited now to see how this list plays out the final, because there's going to be some, I don't think anything will get as contentious as the comment section in the Sergei Fedorov. Is it Sergey Fedorov?

And then everyone who followed Sergey Fedorov because. Yeah. Well, thank this is what it should be. Yeah. Or, yeah, but I mean, everybody after there, geez, look, man, I love Sergei Fedorov, but some of the comments are getting pretty silly on some of this stuff. I'm all for saying, like, look.

I thought gently did a great job. Oh, yeah. didn't like I don't like and I'm not just saying that to defend like oh you're of course you're going to defend your calling I would I would tell I would say if I thought yeah you know what I thought he went too much on I would say that for sure I would but no I don't think he did I think it was a pretty good I thought it was a good encapsulation of the guy the thing the thing that gets me for a lot of these is like you put a list like this out for two reasons one because we you know it's interesting subject matter we're paying

tribute to these guys. We're covering this history of the game. And it's just a great content to sink your teeth into as a writer and hopefully as a reader feel the same way. That's number one. But number two is for the discussions, for the arguments, for everything that's going to turn out. So I've got no issue when, you know, if somebody says, oh, I can't believe you guys are going to have Joe Thornton and I had a Sergei Federov. You know, I would, I think Federov was better. I take him. Okay, no problem. That's absolutely, you know what? And make your case. But it's, it's when you see guys who are like, there's not one hockey person alive who would take Joe Thornton over Sergey Federer.

And you're like, really, dude, did you ask everybody? You've done a full survey? Because, I don't know, just argue your case without fooling yourself into thinking that there's no argument to be had. But it is fun to watch. Like, I, you know, I've written a few of these. I got a few more on the way. I like waiting into the comments and seeing, you know, I don't take offense if, you know, I wrote the Jerome McGinla one.

I had a bunch of comments from people saying, he's rated too high. I had a bunch of comments from other people saying too low. No issue with that. Hey, we all took a vote. This isn't, you know, I'm not responsible for where Jerome McGinla wound up on the list. So I don't mind.

You know, you're not the reason Daniel Alpherson was, you know, not high enough in the eyes of senators' fans. I got no issue with people making the case. Just, man, I, boy, I wish I had the confidence in anything that certain, internet commenters have about everything. Yeah, you know what? So I have one more coming up of these. And I'll look, it's no secret.

People will know that this guy's, he hasn't appeared on the list. You know he's going to be there. And it's Denny Potfan. So I won't say obviously where he ends up on the list. To be honest, I don't even know. But anyway, I got to tell you, you know who I tracked down for the story?

You're going to love this. Okay. Ulf Nielsen. Oh, wow. Nice. I tracked him one. And that's going to kind of be. And you just gave him.

2,000 words to just cut a promo on Denny Bowman what a piece of garbage Denny Boffin was. No, it was. You know what? It's, anyway. That would have been fantastic. Just literally just as told by and it just rip the, it just Islander fans just stunned faces reading this thing. And the great thing would be then both Sean Fitzgerald and Sean Gentile would be like, thank God the heats off us. Yep.

We're off. We're good. But anyway, it was a great conversation. And anyway, I'm looking forward to, I got to kind of finish that up. in the next day or so. But I hope people like it. I just, you know, again, you're trying to take different angles on things and,

you know, try to, you're trying not to just write the, I want people to understand, like we're not just trying to write the Wikipedia page of these guys either, right? Like we're trying to give a little context for why they were a great power forward or a great defenseman or a great, whatever, like something, why did they stand out? And that's, you know,

and I don't know about you, but I feel like it's getting harder as we go. Because, you know, we're, the guy that I'm writing, I won't say who it is, but it's, they're number 10 on the list that I'm finishing off this week. There's 90 of these profiles that have been done. I mean, at some point, you're sort of like, okay, what new angle do I find on this? It's, it's getting tougher and tougher, but it's been fun. I've really enjoyed doing it. I think the project's gone really well.

If you haven't been following it, go get caught up. But yeah, you're not going to agree with every single piece that we come up with. And, you know, the other piece of it is if it's somebody that it's your favorite player and somebody decides to take a unique angle like Gentilly did, I thought that was really great. You know, you're sitting there waiting and waiting and waiting and going, oh, I'm going to read the article about how amazing they were. And it's just going to be nothing but, you know, tire pumping. Okay, you know, we got to cut. we got to come in with different angles to look at this. Yeah, no, exactly.

So, yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing the last 25, 26 names on the countdown list. And I think it's going to be a lot of fun when we get down to the very end. And then we kind of unveil the whole list and then we have some debates. And that's going to be, I think that's going to be a lot of fun. I do think people are going to be mad when they get to the top 10 that Wendell Clark is, is not as high as they think he should be. I won't give away where it's single digits, obviously. Wendell hasn't gone yet.

Yeah. But I think people are going to be a little bit surprised that, you know, I can just see people, like, really, Marrow ahead of Wendell? Hey, look, I feel the same way, but I was only one boat. Yeah. That's all I can tell you. All right. You can send us your thoughts on NHL 99 or anything by dropping us an email. The Athletic Hockey Show at gmail.com.

Richard from Liverpool writes in. Love the podcast, guys. As a fan from England, it's funny, interesting, and informative way. for me to keep up with the NHL. Hey, we're not trying to be funny here, Richard. I don't know where he's getting that from. Yeah, this is completely straight. I don't know what.

I don't know what he's talking about. Hey, got a question for you guys. As an Avalanche fan, I know I'm a little bit biased here, but why doesn't Miko rantan and get a little bit more love for the MVP award? As of the end of December, in 34 games, he's got 24 goals, 21 assists. He's two and a half times ahead of goals from the next closest player on his team. not to mention that he kept them going through all of the injuries. Would love to hear your thoughts on Miko Rantonan Heart Trophy.

That's from Richard and Liverpool. That must be hard to watch the avalanche if you're in Liverpool, like with the time difference, right? What's that? Seven hours probably? Might be. There's some, there's some streamers out there going,

it's probably hard to watch the avalanche in Colorado too. But there's... Exactly. You know what? It's a fair point. As far as why haven't there been more buzz? I think part of the issue, because I've heard this from Jason Robertson fans to and even Patrice Bergeron and guys like that, it's because Connery David's right away with this thing.

If Connery David has 150 points, he's winning the Hart trophy unless Edmonton misses the playoffs and probably even then. So I think that maybe just the Hart Trophy debate just doesn't feel as the discourse doesn't feel as full-throated as it normally would be just because it feels like it's a already settled. But yeah, no, he absolutely would. And I'll tell you, especially if one of my pet peeves is voters

who say that, you know, if you're not in the playoffs, you can't be the MVP. And yet they'll vote for a guy who gets his team into the eighth spot. And then they go, and then they go get like Taylor Hall. And then the devil's won one playoff game that year. So really, like,

I can't vote for someone who didn't make the playoffs, but somebody who won one playoff game can be the MVP of the entire league. I've argued that we should vote on MVP at the end of the playoffs. And I know a lot of people don't love that idea. But, you know, if we're really going for value to the team and all of this. But I'll say this. If the Colorado Avalanche, with all the injuries they've had, if they get into the playoffs as a number eight, but they're healthy by that point. And we look back and go, boy, they almost miss,

but Miko Raton went supernova and got them into the playoffs. that is a team. They're not getting into the playoffs to get knocked out to get swept or win one game. That would be a real dangerous team. I would absolutely be willing to think about putting Miko Randin on my ballot. I don't know that I'm going to put him ahead of a 150 point player who also might score 60 goals in the prize. I mean, I just think it's going to be awfully hard to knock Connor McDavid out of contention. But yeah, in the conversation, absolutely.

Jay writes into the show, with the Seattle Cracken getting an outdoor game, there are now three teams who have yet to play one. Arizona, Columbus, Florida. How do each of those teams end up getting an outdoor game and assuming they're all stadium series? Who and where would they play? And who do you think is the last team to get an outdoor game?

Happy New Year, that is from Jay. So, Panthers, Jackets, coyotes. I mean, I would think the easiest one logistically would be Columbus, right? You've got Ohio State there. The climate's a little easier to manage for an outdoor game versus Arizona. They had an all-star game, you know, seven or eight years ago. It was great. They did a fantastic job. Oh, yeah, it's a great, great spot. Arizona, people say it's really dry, hard to make the ice. Florida, it's too humid. It's hard to make the ice. So I can see that, but you were at the outdoor, the stadium series in L.A.

And so, I mean, we've seen it. I went to both the California ones and they were both, they both worked out great. I'm no, you know, it's not just temperature and all that sort of thing. I mean, there was talk this week that we could see one in Florida. And it, you know, it may be Tampa, but it would be a Tampa, Florida game, presumably. And that they, they may feel like they could find a way to make it work. I do think Arizona's the toughest one also just because of where the team's at right now, as far as rebuild-wise.

I mean, all three of those teams are struggling, but, you know, Arizona's doing the total tear it down. And I don't know if that's a team you want to showcase anytime soon. And also just, you know, we can talk about why the fan base hasn't evolved the way the league was hoping, but it hasn't. And so a lot of times with something like this,

it's, you know, can we pack a big stadium? Is this a team where fans are going to travel and all of that stuff? And I just don't think Arizona's there yet. So they're probably the last team to get it. If you do it, I mean, Vegas would sort of be the natural one. And the fact that Vegas has been paired up with Seattle for next year suggests that it may be a few years. Maybe two or three years down the line when it's time to go back to Vegas.

Maybe Arizona feels like they're ready. Certainly if they've got Connor Bedard or someone like that, then that moves the needle. But right now, if I had to pick of those three teams, I think Arizona's the last one. But wouldn't you be, if let's say you're an Arizona fan, a Blue Jackets fan or a Panthers fan. What makes you more upset that Vegas is a new team and Seattle's a new team

and they're getting an outdoor game or that you flipped on your TV on the weekend and saw Pittsburgh and Boston playing for what felt like the umpteenth time in an outdoor game? Which one would, which one would Urquia Moore? Ah, man, I don't know. I mean, I think we all understand the business of it. Yeah, with as far as Boston,

even though the fact that they were back in a venue we've already used was, you know, maybe a little dicey. But, yeah, I think maybe you're bad at Seattle. But, you know, I think you do also have to understand, with the exception of Columbus, you know, the climate does matter. And obviously Seattle isn't a traditional outdoor hockey climate, but, you know, at least you're a little bit further north. You know, I do get it, why you would be a bit frustrated. But at the same time, I mean, look, if you're Arizona, Florida, you want to see the league embrace the modern. You want to see the league say, you know what, it doesn't have to be some original six team with everyone dressing up like they're in the 1920s. We can embrace the new as well.

And then hopefully that creates time for you to be the new at some point. Let's wrap up the Thursday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. Like we always do with a little trip down memory laying in, a little segment we like to call. This week in hockey history. By the way, no Granger things brought to you by Bad MGM, because Jesse Granger is live blogging. Like I said, we're doing this Wednesday night. About midway through the third period, roughly.

Canada's still 14. Boy, I can't wait to get on Twitter as the guy who has held himself out there as the goalie interference guy. Oh, no. Yeah. I haven't checked the highlights for this game, but I'm sure this is going to be a fun night for me. Oh, my gosh.

And you add the international line to this. And it's just, yeah, yeah. I just want to pick one thing from this week in hockey history. And it comes from January of 1992. And I want you to take the listeners back because this is one of the biggest trades in the history of the NHL, biggest in terms of like just volume of players, a 10-player trade. The biggest. Yeah, the biggest trade.

There you go. But, I mean, it had ramifications that it felt like it completely altered the trajectory. of the Toronto Maple Leafs franchise. And I need to know. So you would have been whatever, like, 15, or teenager, right? 15, whatever, 16 years old. And, like, this is at the height of your, like,

kind of your just leaf fandom. It's 1992. Did you realize what happened here? Like, or, like, how big the dream was, yeah. Yeah, like, do you realize how good this is? Did you know what you were getting in Doug Gilmore? We knew he was a good player. The concern at the time was,

there were a lot of people who felt the Leafs had gone out and gotten too old. You know, the Leafs were a bad team. And when you're a bad team, you're supposed to get younger. And instead, they had, you know, they had already made the trade for Grand Fear and Glenn Anderson, who were two older guys, given up Vincent Danfuss. And then in this trade, Gilmore comes over. He's like 28 or 29. So that was the concern.

We did not know he was as good as he was going to be. And in fact, nobody did. I wrote about, I wrote Doug Gilmore's entry in our NHL 100. and, you know, that's what I talked about, is how anytime your team makes any sort of trade, this is what you want to have happened. It's the guy who you're getting suddenly levels up into something he's never been before. So it was, you know, it really was something. But I'll really briefly just tell the story of that day how I found out about the trade. I think you've heard this story before.

But let me go back a week and a bit before to Christmas. And what I have asked for for Christmas. Oh my God, I forgot about it. For my parents, I have said I want a Toronto Maple Leafs jersey. And they say, okay, we can probably, you know, Santa can probably do that. What player do you want? Do you want Wendell Clark? Hey, I love Wendell Clark, but everyone's got a Wendell Clark jersey.

Well, you know, what about, what about Grandfure? What about, you know, there weren't a lot of choices back then. And I said, no, you know who I want? I want this new guy that they just got in the Grandfure trade, Craig Barube. Love this guy. Tough guy. Enforcer.

He's out there. He's fighting probert. He's fighting everybody. He's got the cool long hair. That's the guy I want. Give me a number 16, Craig Baroube jersey. And lo and behold,

Christmas morning, Santa comes. I get my jersey. I'm thrilled with it, but, you know, it's Christmas break. I don't really have a chance to show it off. January 2nd,

192, one of my buddies is like, let's go downtown. Let's go do, we'll go hit a, hit up the record stores and, you know, all the arcades and all that other old stuff. This story sounds way older than it is. And, hit up there.

And I say, was there a malt shop too or what? Dude, yeah, there was, yep, yep, pop tates,

we dropped by to get, uh, get a banana split and everything and it was great. I throw on the Craig Barubei jersey and I'm walking around downtown. I'm thinking, man, this, I like this,

man, this looks good. I'm the old, I'm looking around. There's another Wendell jersey. There's the, I, I'm the only guy with a Craig

Barrube and about, I would say late in the afternoon, I know, I'm starting to get some looks. People are starting to look and notice and I'm thinking now, okay, there it is. And, you know, by the end of it, I mean, I'm on the subway and I'm sitting there going, okay, I don't want to get too full of myself, but I think people are actually, I think I saw somebody pointing at me. Maybe somebody thinks I am, Greg Barubei. People are whispering to each other. Like, this is, this thing is, oh, this is gold.

And I got home and I walked in the door. and my dad informed me that Craig Barumet had been traded that day as part of this 10-player deal. None of these randos on the subway or on public transit said to you, hey, man, he got traded. They just decided to side-eye you and make you feel weird. I think that was it. Yeah, that was, I mean, I don't think they were trying to. I think they were probably good.

Does that guy know? Do you think that, you know, you got to remember, I mean, we talk about this being an old story. No cell phones back then. I'm not getting any, you know, I'm not getting a text. There's no Twitter alerts. Like you, if back then, if something had not happened, you just didn't know about it until, you know, somebody told you or, you know, we hadn't heard the radio or anything like that. And so I was, I have said, I might be the only lease fan who was really ticked off that day. I was, I mean, me or like, you know, I don't know, like if like Jeff Reese's kid maybe were the only ones that were really, I was just, oh, you kidding me.

They traded for Rube. Now, do you have that Jersey's film? I still do. Yep, absolutely. It's falling apart. the letters and numbers are falling off, but I do still have it around here somewhere. Man, no, I love that story.

I think it's phenomenal. It's phenomenal. Yeah, it's peak 90s. Yeah, you don't, you have no idea about these trades. But again, the huge ramifications. It just didn't know things. Deliefs. Altered deletes.

Yeah. Completely. And they became a legitimate Stanley Cup contender, you know, not 12 months, not 12 months later. Okay. I mean, it was that and Pat Burns. Yeah, that and Pat Burns in the off season. Okay, as we wrap it up, can you go 10 for 10?

Can you give us the 10 names of the play? players in that trade without looking anywhere. Yeah. So the Leafs got Doug Gilmore, James Cowan, Rick Natchez, Rick Wamsley, and Kent Manderville was the prospect. They gave up Gary Lehman. They gave up Alexander Gideiuk. They gave up Jeff Reese, the goaltender.

They gave up Michelle Petit. And, oh, boy, okay, so I've done, because the positions lined up. So it was two forwards. You're forgetting the guy who was Jersey you had. Oh, Craig Bruby. Yes, of course. Sorry. So I blocked out the, I've blocked out the one there. You've blocked out that memory already.

Yeah. It's a tough, it's a tough memory for me. But yeah, and they, and they gave up Craig Baroube. And shout out to Craig Barrebe was traded three times in his NHL career, all within 12 months in trades involving Yari Curry, Grant for your Glenn Anderson, Doug Gilmore. Guy did not mess around. Whatever happened to him, I wonder. Yeah, I wonder. Greg Baroube.

You got to get him to sign that jersey at some point. next time St. Louis and Toronto decide to play an entertaining game. That'll be my chance, my opportunity. Hey, by the way, good job by us on the shootout jinx last week, eh? Yeah, well, we took that, was it New Jersey and Toronto? We took that New Jersey and Toronto. We mentioned the three teams that had not been in a shootout. So who's the last team that hasn't been in a shootout?

Within days. It's Winnipeg is the last team. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somebody tweeted at us and said, hey, guys, you just jinx New Jersey. And then I saw that the Toronto and St. Louis went to one on Tuesday night. So I don't even know when Winnipeg's next game is. I'm sort of scanning the schedule right now. But that's, we don't have Jesse Granger for the betting tips. But yeah, Tampa Bay at Winnipeg a couple days from now.

Bet the shootout. Shoot out. Yeah. All right. We'll leave it there. This was a lot of fun. I want to thank everybody for listening to this first Thursday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show in 2023. A reminder you can always. Hit us up with your comments.

via email at The Athletic Hockey Show at gmail.com or with a voicemail 8454454-8449. And right now you can get a one-year subscription to The Athletic for $2 a month when you visit Theathletic.com slash hockey show.