The Athletic Hockey Show - Connor Bedard to miss all-star game, Jamie Drysdale to make Flyers debut and streaking giants in NHL

Episode Date: January 10, 2024

Ian and Julian welcome Kevin Kurz from Philadelphia to discuss the continued fallout from Cutter Gauthier wanting out of the Flyers organization and newly acquired Jamie Drysdale's Flyers debut tonight.Down Goes Brown discusses his 23-24 NHL prediction contest and which of the NHL's worst teams could recreate the Blues’ worst-to-first miracle from 2019 and Shayna Goldman, our resident slump buster discusses Matthew Tkachuk's breakout night for Florida plus we talk about Connor Bedard's injury, which sees him miss the all-star game in Toronto, streaking teams Winnipeg, Seattle, Edmonton and Florida, and we stick tap Jon Cooper on his 500th career coaching win, behind the bench of the Tampa Bay Lightning.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. Welcome to it. It is your Wednesday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. It's Ian Mendez and Julian McKenzie with you in the middle of the week. And I'll tell you what, Julian, we said this, remember a couple days ago after the Drysdale, Gochay trade? Man, there's this nonstop news happening. We got it Tuesday evening, right?

Or early Wednesday morning, Kana Bedard. as you kind of predicted he's going to miss the All-Star game now with the jaw injury he's going to require a procedure but he's going to be out for probably six weeks, eight weeks somewhere in that ballpark here's the question though

should Chicago have a rep at the All-Star game? No, I mean, there's a whole debate to be had about this process entirely I'm on the side that says we don't need one representative per team.

I would much rather see an all-star game with as many of the best all-stars as you could put. I don't know if you saw some of the early vote counts for the 12 skaters who can get voted in by fans. There's a lot of Vancouver conducts on that list. There's a lot of Toronto Maple Leafs, Nealander,

and Mitch Marner are on that list too, and there still could be a bunch of guys who would miss. And the fact that, you know, I'm not actually I'm actually not sure myself, if Chicago needs to have somebody or if you absolutely could find a way to just have some injury replacement from around the league.

I think so many more people would rather that alternative than, and that's no shade to this player, Jason Dickinson. No shade to Jason Dickinson. Fine hockey player. I don't think you're getting the All-Star game you want with him there. No, especially you have Brock Besser and J.T. Miller and all these guys having big years.

in Vancouver. You imagine William Nealander. Guys are having massive years. It's the All-Star game. So to me, if Badard, if he's not going to play, that was your representation from Chicago. He got named to the team. Now move on. Like, that's my point.

I think I'm with you on that. And you had a piece, what was that last week, just looking at how many teams have multiple players that could be you know, all-star representatives, right? Like, it's, it's insane. Like I was writing that piece and there were so many different teams, so many different

players. I think I still missed a few. Like one guy in particular I was thinking about yesterday, Luke Hughes in New Jersey who could very well be a Calder Trophy candidate. I did not write him in that list. And he is, I think among like some of the, what, the top, I don't know if he's in the top eight or top 10 skaters in terms of getting votes. It might be a little further down, but he's getting votes from Devils fans. And he could still miss. It's kind of funny. Artemian is getting votes, even though he already explained that he's not going to the All-Star game to be with his wife. I believe they're expecting a child. But yeah, I think it's funny.

We made such a big deal in the past about fans trying to vote for whoever they wanted. And it resulted in the John Scott thing. And the NHL extract to re-event the wheel with the voting process. When maybe just letting the fans vote whoever they wanted in, that was the right move all along. and yes, you want interest from every market. Do you really? If it means you're going to get Boone Jenner in, I don't get it. And again, it's not trying to dump on these players.

They're NHL players. There are a reason why they're in the league and why we're sitting at home on podcast. But the All Star game is about all stars and high quality players. And if we're going to miss out on some of the best in the world, what's the point? Yeah. No, I agree. I think we want to see the best players. That's what the All Star game is, the best stars in the game.

not one rep from 32 teams. Anyway, but to add to that, and to add to that too with Badaard, it's going to suck with him not being there. It is going to suck with it. And maybe Jack Hughes too, like two, arguably two of the best dynamic, talented young stars of the game.

Like if you had to pick two guys, you want to market for the next decade, they'd be near or at the top of the list. And they're both, well, Bard for sure, Hughes may be too, right? Like that, that's a huge, huge blow to the national hockey. Look, the story of the week, the Jamie Drysdale trade to Philadelphia for Cutter

Gote, and the way that this all went down. We're going to bring in our guy, Kevin Curse here in a second, but first we want to play a little audio. We're going to roll them in here with a little intro from John Tortorello. So what we're going to do is play a little audio. This is the exchange between a reporter in Philadelphia, John Torterlo. John Totorella on Tuesday as they were trying to get to the bottom of what Jamie Driesdale's role was going to be with the flyers. I think you probably don't want to give him too much information on day one, but I'm not.

I don't have any. Yeah. Just walking in and then. Did you have a chance to talk to him in person? Yes. Do you think he'll play in part of him? I have no idea. Putting him with Travis and I today just to take a look and see.

Yes, today's practice. We had AD trying different things. I'm not sure what the pairs are going to be tomorrow. Let the kid play, please, then ask me questions. You're not going to get shit out of me in a 30-minute practice. So let's get going here. Well, let's get going here with Kevin Kurz. And ask him, Keff, were you, I'm terrible sometimes at identifying voices.

Were you one of those people asking the question to Torts? No, I was not. I would, and I think part of the reason he was a little annoyed. is because the previous night after the trade, he did talk a little bit about Jamie Drysdale. So maybe some of those questions were repetitive. I sat that one out. I had other things I wanted to ask him yesterday.

But, you know, obviously I think what he's doing there is just he wants the kid to go out and play and not think about everything else is going on. And we did talk to Jamie shortly after that torts availability. And, you know, he said all the things I think you would expect him to say. But clearly he was caught off guard. and, you know, he was lucky because he was packed for a two-week road trip with the Anaheim ducks. So he's got plenty of stuff, plenty of clothes and all the essential items with him to at least last them here for a little while.

Well, at least John Tortorella knows Jamie Drysdale more than he ever knew Cutter Goetia, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, you know, I'm not surprised he didn't want to talk about Cutter-Gotier. You know, that's everything that really had to be said about Gautier was said by, you know, those above John Tortorella, Danny Breyer, Keith Jones, and even Dan Hilfordy, who's basically the next level down from ownership, went on a team-affiliated podcast. And the message was pretty clear here that if Gotea doesn't want to be with the Flyers, he's not going to be. They'll find somewhere else. It's actually similar to Ivan Proveroff in a way because, you know, Proveroff

wasn't happy in the Flyers dressing room and they were more than happy to move him. So it's obviously a little bit different because Gotea was never here physically. But, you know, the message that they sent was more for the fans than anyone else. That, you know, if this kid doesn't want to play here, we've got to figure out a way to get an asset back in return. You know, I'd love for you, if you can, Kev, to kind of dig in a little bit on your story that you dropped on Tuesday with the Patrick Sharp John Leclair and and kind of, you know, being frozen out from Cutter Gautier. I mean, that to me was really jarring. If you could just kind of take our listeners through that exchange that, I guess, didn't happen on a college campus.

And that's the strangest part of this story is how Gautier essentially ghosted. I guess that's the use that word, the parlance of our times, as I would say in a certain movie. but, you know, it was May when the Flyers last heard from Cutter-Gotiay, and it was after the World Championships when they assumed that when he wanted to get in touch, that was he wanted to sign. And clearly, that was the case. It was the exact opposite. He said, I don't want to play for the Flyers.

So he didn't have any interest in communicating with anyone from the organization after that message was sent. And obviously, the Flyers were still trying to repair this relationship, as recently as the world juniors when Breyer and Keith Jones flew over to Sweden to try and get a meeting with him then. But, you know, Patrick Sharp and John LeClair, two of the better American-born hockey players in the history of the sport, two guys that have won Stanley Cups that are now, I believe the term is a special advisor to the hockey operations department. They were both hired in the offseason. And, you know, they caught a game that Gautier was outstanding.

And he scored the game tying goal. Then he scored again in overtime. And they were meeting with the head coach of Boston College. They wanted to also get at least a quick meeting with Gotee and somewhat informed Gautier. Those guys wanted to talk to him. And his response was essentially, nah, I'm good. And, you know, that didn't sit well at all with the Flyers front office. And I think that, uh,

You know, as much as they wanted to repair the relationship, I think they also recognize that there might be there's some concerns here with the kids overall maturity, frankly. Well, I'm wondering how much we'll learn from Cutter-Gote's side, but I still have a hard time wrapping my brain about why he wouldn't want to play for the flyers. There's no way it's just because he grew up in Pittsburgh. It was just a Penguins fan. There's no way it's just about bonus overages or whatever. Kevin Hayes, many people speculated his involvement in this, that maybe he said something to Cutter-Goti-A. He went out and denied all of that. Then what is it?

Why did Cutter-Goti say, you know what, thanks but no thanks to Philadelphia? I don't understand. And that's, you know, that's the message that he's going to have to address at some point. You know, every, because if we're not getting an explanation, that just means everyone's going to speculate. And let's face it, Gotee right now does not look very good in this whole situation. talking about everybody loves Keith Jones. I'm sure you guys have talked to him before. I mean, freezing out Keith Jones just seems, you know, a ridiculous tactic to take. You know, maybe if that's the case that he was upset that the Flyers didn't sign him coming out of his last college season,

okay, well, maybe explain that, you know, but again, that's not anything that the Flyers know. If that is the case, he never told them. So, you know, that's something that I would hope when he does do a media availability, you know, whether that's sooner or later, he will address it because I think if you're this kid right now, you've got to respond a little bit because right now, you don't look very good. Not wanting to play in what, you know, there's a little, it's a little bit of a down market right now. but this is still going to be a hockey town when this team hypothetically gets better again. And, you know, if you don't want to be a part of that, that's, it's odd.

That's the only way to put it. You know, Kevin, like, I think of, you know, it's funny. And if you're from Philadelphia, the name J.D. Drew jumps to mind, right? J.D. Drew's the guy that the Phillies took at the top of the draft when the late 90s, he was like, he's going to be like the next Mickey Mantle, right? he is a five tool guy and he was a scott boris client and it was like ah he's not signing in philly and they went nuts on him every time he would come back right so well they went over the line they were throwing batteries out of the field so let's hope that doesn't repeat itself but yeah

it was they were upset they were upset so on a scale of you know on the jd drew scale where does cutter go tchier fall in philly sports well he's a new villain there's no doubt about it, which is ironic that the trade happened in, or coincidental that the trade happened in, when they were playing Pittsburgh and Sidney Crosby's out on the ice where, you know, he's been, he's been the villain here for the last 20 years. So the fact that the trade went down right in the middle of a Pittsburgh Flyers Penguins game at Wells Fargo Center or something else. But, you know, obviously this is a town that does love to hate sometimes. I remember growing up as a kid, it was the Matthew Barnes.

to be the Thai domies of the world that uh i mean christ a guy and tried to fight tie domi in the penalty box in one of the more legendary uh youtube clips um in flyers fan history but um yeah i mean he's you know it's almost a shame that it's anaheim so they're only going to come here once a year and if you assume he's going to make the ducks next season that that's that's certainly going to be a hot ticket in town. But it is just odd that the flyers, I don't necessarily, I know that I know Elliot's report out there was the overages. And I take, obviously, we take Elliot at his word.

He's one of the more credible reporters in our business. But the Flyers were willing to sign him. And they saw him at the World Championships. They saw him play and have an effective tournament amongst men. I think it was seven goals, nine points, and ten games at the World Championships last May. They were ready. They would have made room for him. They just never got a chance to talk to him.

And that's the part of the story that has, I think, everyone shaking their heads in frustration. Well, it has been the story of the week. You've been all over it. And we do encourage our listeners to check out your story that you dropped on Tuesday, which kind of delved into Patrick Sharp, John McClare, and all of that. So Kevin Curris, never a dull moment covering the flyers. but we'll say this, it beats covering the San Jose sharks

right now. Yeah, and it's a little easier to get information than the Islanders, which are, as what, after two years. Exactly. All right. Hey, listen, thanks for doing. Jeez.

Yeah, thanks for doing this, and we look forward to catching up with you again here at some point in the future. Okay, thanks, guys. There goes Kevin Kerr's. Terrific beat writer with us, as you mentioned, he's covered the sharks, he's covered the Islanders,

and now the Philadelphia Flyers. We got, Sean McIndoo, Down Goes Brown on deck. Tell you what, we're going to ask Sean a little bit about that trade and some other stories floating around the league, so we'll get to Sean McAdo on the other side. All right, let's bring in our guy, Sean McIndoo. Better than known as Down Goes Brown.

I got a question for you. We just had Kevin Curzon talking about Cutter Goetje and the reception he's going to get in Philly. You always have a great perspective on fans and how they kind of attack these situations. I ask you this, Sean, what is the more egregious act from an athlete? pulling a cutter Goetje, which is you never even play for the team and you walk or John Tavares, where you play for a few years and then you walk.

Yeah. What's the one that gets fans angrier? Well, the bar is pretty high as far as who gets fans angry because Islander fans still aren't over the John Navarous thing. Personally, I would argue that if you're talking about a guy who you drafted, you gave the contract to he lived up to everything he played great and then when his contract is up he takes his talent somewhere else as a free agent i don't see that being as much of a bullable offense and i understand islander fans are going to go wait wait that's not how it went

down he promised this he led them to think that i get that that situation maybe was a little bit different depending on who you're listening to but having somebody say i don't want to play on this team period. You know, Tavares, yeah, you could say he said that with his actions. He picked a different team. But to have somebody say, no, no, you own my rights, but I, I'm not going. That I could see being to me as a fan, that's a much bigger issue, especially when you have the situation right now where we know he didn't want to go, but we don't know why.

So you're left kind of sitting there going, hey, man, we can't even build anything off of this. We can't even fix anything because we don't know what we're supposed to fix. I think it's going to be real ugly. And I got to say, I've, I've really enjoyed the experience of watching Philadelphia fans over the last little while because you guys, I'm sure, no, we've all had the experience where, oh, man, if you're, if you're talking about Philadelphia sports fans and you make a reference to like batteries or Santa Claus or Michael Irvin or anything, these days Flyers fans get really mad at that. They go, got, get some new material. We don't do that anymore. You know, that's not the Philly way.

But all of a sudden, you got this situation and all these Flyers fans are like, you're in for a kid. You're getting the full Philly treatment. You're sitting there going, what was the Philly treatment again? Because I was told you guys didn't do that anymore. No, they still got it in them. They're still proud of it. And it's going to potentially be nasty.

Although, who knows when that game's going to be. So maybe by that point, maybe the story's gone in some other direction. But right now, it's not going to be pretty. is there another market where if another team was involved, the potential reaction would be worse? Maybe the Islanders, would a Canadian market react the way that we think the Flyers will with Carter-Gote?

I mean, for what it's worth, flames fans still boo Adam Fawkes. And I think for a lot of people in that market, for watching that situation unfold, the first thing they thought of was, oh, God, we've been through this before, with Adam Fox. Yeah, and, you know, it's, I mean, I don't think there's anywhere that would give a rougher ride than Philadelphia.

But again, I'm committing that sin right now that I've been told by Philadelphia fans I'm not supposed to say, which is to, you know, to imply that maybe they're a little nastier than most. But I do think every market has it in. Any market, if you believe or you get told enough that you have been betrayed by somebody, it can get pretty ugly and geez I mean there's there's markets out there that are they're booing guys and they don't even remember

why at this point it's just this is just a thing that we do we don't like this guy sometimes it makes sense sometimes it doesn't but in this case you look I mean I know we all drew the comparison hey 30 years ago Eric Lindrosse

that's how the flyers wound up with them and all that stuff that's a long time though and to have in a league where we almost never see young players use this, this tool that's available to them, which is to say I'm not going to sign a contract.

We almost never see it to see it play out and to see it be Philadelphia and to see it happen the way that at least the flyer side of the story is saying it happened. We're not getting the other side of the story right now. It's hard for me to look at a Flyers fan and say, well, don't boo this kid. There may be more to the story,

but until you hear it, You can only go by what you know. You know, the trade Gochier for Drysdale was a surprise. A lot of people didn't realize one or both of the guys who were on the market. That is except for one of our athletic readers, Sean. And that's the natural segue into your preseason prediction column. I want you to tell our listeners about the one Randolph fan who actually predicted Jamie Dreisdale would get traded this year.

This is the contest that I run every year where it's, It's 10 questions. In theory, easy questions. Who's going to make the playoffs? What coaches are not going to get fired? And you can give as many answers as you want, but any answer you get wrong gives you a zero. So it's how confident are you?

And one of the questions is name a player who's going to be on a different team at the end of the year. And it's a tough one to answer. But there's certain names that showed up on a lot of entries. Matt Dumbah, Jason Zucker, both in Arizona. veteran players one-year deal team that wasn't expected to be good rebuilding hey you can kind of see the trade deadline writing on the wall a few people had connor hallibuck and mark shyfully because this contest came before those contracts were signed so a lot of people figured they were on the move but i went back and i looked and i said did anybody put jamy drysdale down and sure enough there was exactly one entry out of 2000 uh one person put jamie drysdale as being being likely to switch teams. And the good news is they got it right. The bad news is they had two guys on their answer and the other guy was Connor Halibu.

So unless something really unexpected happens, they're taking a zero just like the rest of us. But I got at least give credit. One out of 2000 actually got this one called their shot and got it right. There's no way anyone, how many people I guess are still alive in this prediction contest? I know for sure I'm dead. I mean, you're alive as far as winning the contest because nobody ever gets a high score in this thing. I mean, we've had years where the winning score was under 50%. Like literally nobody got a passing grade on this.

So, yeah, there are already some questions that people are, it's not looking great. I mean, you know, Jack Hughes getting hurt, obviously, and that's not, you're not predicting injuries, but Jack Hughes getting hurt really threw off a lot because he was a guy that people had picked as MVP. and stuff like that. Some of the other questions that making the playoffs, a lot of people said the flyers were a sure thing not to make the playoffs. You know, you look at where that could go.

That's potentially going to wipe out a lot of people. The one that was really interesting to me was the one new question this year. I hadn't done this one before. And I said, give me up to five teams that are going to finish in the middle 16. So that's what a nine through 24, I guess it would be. So whether they make the playoffs or not, they're going to be the middle of the pack. And I wasn't really sure how that was going to go.

And, man, people are getting crushed on that one. The number one answer was the Islanders. And they are a very middle of the pack team. That one's going to come through. But everybody else was picking senators, sabers, red wings all showed up on a whole lot of ballots. Most of those, all three of those teams are in the bottom eight right now. Detroit is kind of hovering around. But if you pick Buffalo or Ottawa, you're probably out.

And then the other team that showed up on a ton was the Winnipeg Jets. And the Boston Bruins also were on a few. But the Winnipeg Jets were everyone's picked to be middle of the pack. And here they are first place overall in the league as we get to the halfway point. Nobody knows anything in this league. Nobody has any clue. And that's what the contest is for to prove that to people. and I'm so happy to have it this year because I can point out.

I had somebody this morning yelling at me. They're like, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. No, no, it's not that people didn't know the Jets were going to be good. It was you Eastern media types didn't know the Jets were going to be good. And I was like, no, no, man, I got 2,000 entries from all around the hockey world. This is not media. This is not only the East.

This is everybody. 2,000 entries. You know how many people said the Winnipeg Jets were one of their playoff teams? two out of 2000. And three, three picked the Vancouver Canucks. A total of five had those two, the two best teams in Canada right now. We don't know anything.

You were that picked the Ottawa senators who, I mean, the senators are going to finish a lot closer to dead last than the playoffs the way it looks. Well, you know, one thing that you do every Monday, you drop a weekend rankings, right? And you do the kind of the top five,

bottom five, fall into either bucket. I'm wondering as you do the, like right now, as we hit the midway point of the season, when you're doing the top five, how tough is that exercise for you right now with Winnipeg, with Vancouver,

with a couple of teams that I don't know that we really thought that they would be there. The last couple weeks has gotten real tough because my top five is a little different than most of the power rankings out there, right? This isn't a snapshot of right now. I am sitting there saying who are the cup favorites? So who's going to win the Stanley? Who are my five most likely Stanley Cup winners?

And that obviously changes throughout the year, but you're not basing it on, oh, well, the Jets beat the Rangers. So therefore, they have to be higher. And, you know, in theory, there's not as much moving around and, you know, constant. But it's been tough for a while now. It was basically some combination. You had Boston, New York, as the two powerhouses in the east, Colorado and Dallas and the central, if you believed in them, and Vegas. had been very good for most of the year.

Then you had the Kings occasionally swap it in for one of those teams. But this week, I ended up putting Winnipeg and Florida in the top five. And I wasn't sure should I put them in there? Are they top five teams? When you look at them right now, I mean, obviously Florida went to the final last year. So the fact that they're looking so good now should give you some hope. Winnipeg doesn't have that success. But they've got the best goalie in the world.

I mean, a good team with a great goalie and they're well coached. I eventually talk myself into it. And then it's like, well, who's going to come out? And Vegas has been struggling. And, you know, Dallas has sort of been up and down. L.A.'s cooled off. And then, you know, I got the whole thing done. And then I'm looking at it going, wait a second.

I don't have any room for Vancouver. I haven't put them in the rankings all year long. How do I put Winnipeg in and not Vancouver when they're right next to each other in the standings and all of this stuff? It's a mess. I kind of part of me wishes I had a top 10 because then I could fit, you know, more teams in, but then I would just get probably the same situation at number 11

and have people, instead of Vancouver fans yelling at me, I'd have like Tampa Bay Lightning fans instead. So, I don't know. Yeah, can't have too many fans yell at you. You also wrote about which NHL teams could basically try to replicate what the St. Louis Blues did in 2019, go from worst to first,

especially when they were, you remember they were worst on New Year's Day that year. They somehow find a way to win the Stanley Cup. Which of these teams this year do you think could do it. And why is, at least just off the top of my head, I think what Emmington's doing is pretty crazy, but I would love to know which picks you have in mind. Yeah. So I did look at the teams that I think it was that were under 500 on January 3rd, which was the day that the Blues woke up being dead last in the NHL. And the way I did was I looked at what the Blues did. What were the signs

that maybe we missed when it came to St. Louis? Because everybody was writing them off, even their own fans. And, you know, there were things like, okay, they had a new coach who had only been in place for, you know, a few weeks, a couple of months. Maybe he hadn't got the system in, but once Craig Barube got him playing the way that he wanted to, different team. They had Jordan Bittington on the way in. He hadn't started a game yet, but they had the young goalie ready to come in take over. We all know in this league. You get a goalie goes hot. Hey, maybe that's it. And a few factors like that. And I didn't have Edmonton on the list because they were already over 500 at this point. Of course. The two teams that jumped out at me, one of which has aged not well and one of which is,

you know, maybe not any better. But the two were Ottawa and Calgary. And Ottawa, obviously, much like St. Louis has just done the coaching change. And, you know, they do have some talent and all of those pieces. Already looks, you know, a week and a half later after that, like that, that's not going to hold up. They, they can't find a win. They're probably too far back. Calgary is, is the other one that's a little bit tricky because they've got the goal tending, you would think. They've got the new coach, not a midseason change, but going back to the to the offseason. Sometimes it does take a little while. Some of the other pieces, obviously the talent, we're all expecting Calgary to be a big selloff at the deadline, but who knows, maybe it could go the other way. They're just the team that out of the,

I think it was eight that I ended up looking at that were 500 or less. They were the one where you said, you know what, there's at least a few boxes getting checked on on this list. Arizona was the other one of all, of all teams that you go, you know, maybe they could, they could take a swing at it. And then a lot of these teams are, are just completely hopeless and have no chance at all. So Calgary, Arizona, and I did have Ottawa, though I take that back at this point. Well, Julian and I are tired of talking about Calgary and Ottawa. So if you don't mind.

Yeah. So we do that enough. Yeah. Let's talk about Toronto instead. Let's talk about a team that doesn't get any attention from the media. You never get talked about on any platform. All right. No, sir.

Exactly. All right. Sean, as always, great to have you on the Wednesday pot. Thanks for dropping by. And we'll hit you up again next week. Right on.

See you then. There he goes. Sean McIndoo. Down goes Brown. Let's bring in the slump busting Shana Goldberg. Oh, God. I really am cursed this year. Oh,

what an unbelievable? Would you call that a curse? I'm the reverse jinks and I need some checks. I need some support from players. Like, come on. Like, I need to write about you and see what can happen. Can you just, can we, can you take over and become a full-time writer for the senators? Because I know.

They need your magic touch because this week, Shadda, you have a great kind of in-depth piece on, hey, Matthew Kuchuk, the offensive numbers aren't quite what we're used to. He's going to pop at some point. And sure enough, Tuesday night, not one, not two, but three goals against the blues. So take us through your feed, your social media, your text, and all the people telling you how great you were or maybe how, like you said, the curse or whatever after your article dropped. Yeah, the funny thing with that is, like, I finished the story late. So there was a chance it was going to run the next day. And the whole day, I'm like, please just run on time.

Because I was worried he would pop off like that and he did. You know, it's funny because I think on the surface you could look at that story and say, hey, like you're saying he's doing poorly, that could have been written a while ago. But the thing is like the turnaround was already starting and it was fun to look at the indicators that it was going to happen. Like you look at his play all season

and you're like, he's in more of a passing capacity and what's going on and looking at the team around him. And then you see these recent games and you're seeing how it's starting to shift. And then of course it all comes to fruition for the blues against the blues last night. So it is funny because I feel like that's something, it's a trend this year.

And it's getting pointed out to me a lot. If you write about them, this will happen. So if you want to write about like a story saying the Ottawa senators are dead, I am happy to team up. And then maybe you will get to start covering a more exciting game on a nightly basis. Teams being dead. I'm also curious about players. Like I mean, I'm sure there are people in my market who could come up with a list,

other list of names, people in Ottawa, people in other different parts around the league as well. I'm sure in your mentions a lot of people are saying, you know, hey, can you write about insert player here? Have you gotten a lot of that? Um, I'm talking to use a little bit about the Islanders, if anything, like, you said they were dead and look what happened. And it was like, I still have questions about them. Like, they're still collapsing in third periods. It still can't hold the lead and I don't trust management to fix it. Um, but I feel like we're going to get to that point soon, right? Um, especially for fantasy when it was like, can we talk about the something stars and every single person that got named started turning around. Like, as I was writing it, it was like, here, here you go. Like even Tim O'Mire had like a, two-go game the next night. So I think we need a little bit more of that. Do you have any perspective on lottery numbers while you're at it?

I wish that. See that, for whatever reason, this is, this is a gift and a curse that only applies here. Yeah. You know, at the beginning of the year, we're talking about, you know, Matthew Kuchak had his great turnaround night on Tuesday. You and Julian had a fun debate, uh, debate involving Carter for Hagee. And I think it was Cal Connor, right? Yes, it was.

And so Connor's been out for a little bit, but I just want to, give you both the updated totals. Carter for Hegey, 22 goals. Kyle Connor 17. Were we debating goals or points, though? I feel like it had to be points, right? It was goals. I think goals and points were definitely part of that conversation,

but I think the fact that we never established a real bet, and plus Conner being hurt, like that kind of, that sort of hurts things. It's just a little bit. I'll let you off the hook just for that, but like, we just need to respect Carter of Hayes. a little bit more. And I'm the person who literally was dragging him throughout the Kachuk story

being like, hey, he's not passing the puck this much. If we look at the difference between this and last year, you know, it's his shot of sister down and he's not forechecking and recovering dumpins like he used to do. And he's picked it up since in the second quarter of the season, let's call it the first quarter he wasn't doing it enough. But I was, you know, a critic of him. And now he's elevating his game too because he knew he knew he wanted to come out as the leader of this race. And he obviously heard our debates on the athletic hockey show. Exactly. He listens. Everybody listens. Everyone listens to the athletic hockey show, and you should subscribe to the show.

I'm curious, one other big piece of news, which is actually kind of funny, if it wasn't for this cutter-gotier thing, the big news story of the week would be William Nealander finally signing that extension in Toronto, eight years 92 million. I'm very curious from what you're thinking. How do you think his contract will affect top pending UFAs to come? There is one in Edmonton, who I'm thinking of right now who will have one year left on his contract coming to this summer. Yeah, I think the takeaway is, you know, the signing the big contracts is still a thing like Austin Matthews trend didn't take hold of superstars picking, picking their spots a little bit more,

and maximizing which short-term deals like they should be. But it's pushing a team to pay you your maximum value. And having that career year is what really like solidifies the case to do it because we see all the time that players have good seasons and they can ask for something. And a lot of the times it's still a discount, right? Like how many times does a player sign that big contract on a discount to help the team have flexibility around them when, you know, you should maximize your earnings every chance you get? It's nothing new setting a contract during your career year.

Like look at Bo Horvatt with the Islanders, look at Matthew Chuck, Johnny Goddrow, Bill Forsberg, name the player. But the fact that Nealander just did on a cap strap team, I think makes it a little bit more intriguing. like he is making his cap hit is what his market value projects to be. That is the high end. And a lot of the times we don't see players get to their market value. We see a lot of surplus value for these contracts, which obviously is ideal for a general manager,

not necessarily a player. So it might make things interesting if players go, I should be asking for my market value because Nielander did. And when that didn't happen this summer, he played up to it this year. So could someone like Sam Reinhart, who's having a career season on the goal sheet and below the surface too, He's like the most well-rounded he's ever been into like a really good all-situation threat.

Like could he push for that $10.5 million mark? Like, you know, he's making the case to and the fact that Nealander did might pay the way for him. Elias Pedersen is not, you know, the perfect comparable for Nealander because they play different positions. But he could say the same thing. He's having a career year right now and now he might want that maximum value. And the fact that he plays center and not wing should make them even more valuable that he's worth now more than that 11.5. And then look ahead some like Leandro Settle. Like he he's making the case.

for it. And then afterwards, Connor McDavid, who you can make the argument, has been on a cost effective deal since the second he signed it, and we all knew it was going to be. Yeah. I mean, we had Thomas Drans on the pod this week, Shane, and he basically said the same thing, that different position for Elias Pedersen, and that should be the floor. The Neelander should be the floor for Petey in Vancouver. So we'll see how that plays out. One of the things I really enjoy at the start of every month, we have a Shana Goldman. What did we learn from the previous month of hockey in the NHL? Since we're early enough in January, I still think we can get into what we learned from December.

So take us through it, Shana, December. What lessons did you glean from around the National Hockey League? So we're learning that more teams are willing to use star players on the penalty kill. So Sam Reinhardt, like we just talked about, he is. We already knew that Florida was using Barkoff, but here's someone else. You know, he started killing penalties more when he moved to the Panthers. Now he's doing it a little bit more than he was before. But the one that really stood out to me is Jack Eichel, who is barely.

killed penalties before. And now not only as he's doing it, he has one of the best offensive impacts on it on shorthand to play for Vegas. So we're looking at the trends, which is what's the risk and reward of having a more offensive player on the penalty kill? And that is, you know, they tend to have positive impacts on expected goal creation. And they actually tend to have positive impacts on expected goal suppression, which might be the more surprising part. You might think you need someone, you know, to be that heavy shot blocking role. But in today's game, if you have the puck and you can force it away from the power players, like you're going to avoid facing shots against.

So it's always interesting to see it. And it's interesting to see their deployment. Like, is it that they're going out for the initial draw? Like usually not. They're second unit players. But Jack Igo kind of bucks that trend a little bit. And it is more in like the Mitch Martin department of going out for the face off. You wrote about the Cracken too in that story.

And they were, it seems as if they were having a really good penalty kill. And I got to admit, as someone not following the Cracken as closely because of the the flames. I was very surprised when I learned they had what seven in a row at leading it to today. What are your thoughts on the Seattle Cracken? The Seattle Cracking are the fun disruptors that I like that they're repeating that from last year. It took them a minute to get there, right? Like they had a losing streak. We weren't talking about them at all. It was like maybe their

scoring luck is completely gone because, you know, last season was such a stark difference from year one. Maybe we're going to find them somewhere in between. But for me, you look at how the defense is cleaned up, uh, their play and the penalty. has really stepped it up. They were one of the worst penalty killing teams in the month of November, which is completely and totally uncharacteristic from their short history. And while they're not a team with the same star caliber forward to fall on the penalty kill, they have so many disruptors like a Wendberg, like a Yanni Gore that can play that role. And, you know, Belmar was a really good addition for them as well. So we saw them kick that up a notch in December to be one of the

better penalty killing teams in the league. Plus, you time that with the really great goaltending with Joey Decord this last month. And it's a recipe for success for this team. Before we let you go, I'd be remiss if I didn't point out your sweatshirt. And this is a video and it's obviously people are listening on the podcast, can't see it. It's Shana's Too Many Men sweatshirt, which of course plugs your other podcast, or your podcast, but your other, your main podcast. But the reason why I bring it up, I want to know, Shana, this week, did you get more texts

when Matthew could check had his hat trick, or did you get more texts in that game with, what was it, Colorado and Boston? And Boston, where there were simultaneous, too many men penalties at the same time, which I don't think anybody's ever seen, which one blew up your phone more? Oof, that's a tough one.

I think it has to be the too many men penalties because we leaned into it so much. Like, the three of us were texting back and forth, like, oh, my God, this is happening. like we need to we need to enjoy this moment, have a nice little giveaway for it. So we were like deciding what to do. And then we put that out there like in honor of here's a mystery gift for someone who guesses the game winner.

But we were tweeting about it a bunch because how can you not? It's simultaneous too many men penalties. It doesn't happen very often. Yeah. And when you get it, you got to, you got to enjoy it. I think it's what like the seventh time it's ever happened. And I, you know, I love that the call was also too many men when we're hearing these too many player penalty calls, you know, which are really killing the vibe for us.

exactly and we do we encourage our listeners check out that podcast uh too many men with shana uh and yeah i just thought that was hilarious this week that i'm like what are the odds of that and it's your podcast uh you name so hey listen thanks for uh thanks for dropping by the wednesday pot and i'm sure at some point uh because we both cover struggling teams we're going to reach out to you for a lab to try and change the mojo around the flames and senators Chris Tenev. Chris Tadiv is the one Flames player who's a petting UFA. We have not written about potential trade destinations. That will show up at some point.

That's got to happen. Yeah, absolutely. Let me know when. I'm ready. Homes for Vladimir Teresenko. That sure feels like a collab piece. Poor senators. Yeah, listen, I'm game for both of these trade destination cap stories.

That's like some of my favorite thing to do. Like, let's do it. But who knows? Maybe like we're talking it into existence that all of a sudden the senator is going to have some pop and surprise everybody. Let's go. Let's do it. Let's hope so. All right.

Thanks for doing this, Shana. Thank you for having me. All right. There goes, Shana Goldman. Just does terrific work with us and also with her too many men. Julian, you know what I wish. I wish we, I should have said to our producers, Danielle and Jeff. I should have said we should have had the Will Ferrell old school audio drop of we're going streaking.

you know the one the old school? Yeah. We're going streaking. Because you and I want to hit on some impressive streaks here. Is there anything more impressive than what Winnipeg is doing right now? The Jets have gone 30 games in a row giving up three goals or fewer. 30 games. That is a tremendous amount of consistency, attention to detail, obviously some great goal-tending.

I'm not sure there's a more impressive stat this season for a team than Winnipeg going 30 straight giving up three or fewer. If we're going off teams, yeah, that's very much up there. I still can't believe the Winnipeg Jets have played as well as they've been playing.

I get that they were really good at the start of last year and then they fell off. This is a team that a lot of people thought were going to rebuild, that they were going to be doing some kind of reconstruction. we were shocked about the fact that they signed Mark Shifley and Connor Hullabuck to those deals. I think we were right to question them. And they've proven everybody, you know, right for doing those deals. It's all on them to sustain that for the rest of the year going forward for them to enter the playoffs.

The two best teams in the league right now are Winnipeg and Vancouver, just like everybody drew it up. I think it's amazing what Winnipeg is doing. Yeah. No, I think it's remarkable. It's really remarkable. Chris Knoblock has his kind of fingerprints and Edmont. Oh, and they're doing this without

Kyle Connor too. In Winnipeg, yeah. In Winnipeg. I think a lot of people had questions about whether or not they were able to sustain that offensive success without their best goal score. And could you imagine they keep this going?

And when he's eventually healthy to come back, they just keep rolling. That's going to be a very scary team to watch in the West. Does that guy have one of the best nicknames in the league to? Like, they call him KFC, right? Kyle Freak and Connor? I love that. never heard of that nickname. I think so. Don't they call them that? I've never heard that.

I'm like, I love that. Well, maybe I, but anyway, but I, I'm, I'm all for the nickname. I think they do. I've just never heard of it. That's amazing. Winnipeg is doing well. Edmonton is now playing the style of hockey. We thought they would 18 and 6. Yeah. Under new coach Chris Knoblock, including an eight game winning streak, what I thought was interesting on Tuesday night. And they, they edge out Chicago in a game in which should have been McDavid against Bader, but of course, we're talking about Bernard's out. I didn't know the result of the game, and I'm scrolling through Twitter,

and I see an angry-looking McDavid in a post-game scrum venting and spouting off about the review process on a Leon Dreisidal disputed call. And I went back and I watched it. I'm like, yeah, I can see it. And that thing took forever for them to go to video review.

And where I agree with McDavid, I do think they should put a tiny, limit. See, this was the unintended consequence of the Matthew Shane call from years ago. That one was egregious. It took a nanosecond to look at it with your eyes and say, that's offside. What they've unintentionally done is open up this review process where now you're looking at stop frames and zoom ins and, you know, reverse angles and was the offside. I agree with McDavid. If you put a one minute time limit or whatever it is. And if you can't come up with a definitive conclusion,

the call on the ice stands, move on. Who's saying no to that? Who is literally saying no to that? Here's the one thing I have with it. We're in a world where because of these technologies in existence, we have the power to get these things right. And I understand that a human error does happen. and it's something that you have to live with in sporting events.

But if there's an opportunity for you to use it and get it right, then you should be able to get it right. I mean, I understand we're going over this at a regular season game that won't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Would we be saying the same thing if this was game six of the Eastern Conference Final or the Western Conference Final, where all of the stakes are there? I don't know. I don't think we should be waiting 15, 20 minutes.

I mean, the state, that's way too long. I can understand that. But at the same time, I think some grace has to be given here. Like, I don't know if I want to live in a world where human error is dictating how these games go. I don't know. There's a reason why we have instant replay. There's a reason why VAR exists in soccer. The way they're applied should be much better with the humans at the time.

the helm of these things, but I don't think that just completely dismissing these things, just because they take a little long. I don't know if that's necessarily the right thing. Fifty minutes is too long. You're right, but like, I don't know. They need to get this right. Did they get it right? And that's the part that's still up for debate.

That's the thing. I was looking at that replay of the puck. Did he not? I, you know what? I don't even like offside to begin with. I think they should just detonate the rule entirely. But that's another conversation for another day. Sure.

But like I was watching the play with with the colleague of mine, the press box during the flames game I was at yesterday. And the colleague I was with was making the point that the point that it was a dry who didn't actually have clear possession of the puck. And I don't know if we need to go into defining what true possession means, but I came away from that discussion thinking, you know what? Maybe they have a point here.

At the end of the day, if the call ends up being. correct, even if it takes a bit of time, I don't know. Like, I think that has to be accounted for in the situation. I can understand everyone's frustrations about it not taking too long. And offside reviews, I think we should be done with those entirely. But at the same time, I also understand that we need to get these things great. Hang on. You just said we should be done with offside reviews entirely after telling me a couple

minutes ago that you'd rather they go longer to get it right. So which one is? I mean, okay, okay, that's fair. That is a bit confusing. I just think if we have it there, I get it. But like, I also think that they are. Here's the one thing I don't like about off sides. I don't like the fact that you can call for a review like 30 seconds or however long after the offside happens.

That I don't like. I think in theory it should work. But I don't like the idea that like a whole. stretch of game could happen and then you could call for that review. But you know what? Maybe I've confused myself enough with that discussion. I just, I understand the other side of it. I was just trying to make that point where I understand both sides of this. Okay. More importantly, is it offside or off sides? To you. Offside. Yeah, okay. It's offside. It's offside. Basically, I'll say this. Get stuff right.

take as much time, but not too much time. And I really wish we could have some kind of time limit on how long teams could call for an offside review. Final thing we want to hit on here on the Wednesday pod, tip of the hat to John Cooper, head coach of Tampa Lightning, they come roaring back, knock off L.A., and in the process give John Cooper his 500th win behind the bench in Tampa. Surprise trivia question for you, Julian McKenzie, to wrap up the pod. Can you name one other guy in NHL history

who has recorded 500 coaching wins with a single franchise? Scotty Bowman. Scottie Bowman did not. He got to 400 something with Montreal, 400 something with Detroit. Never got the 500. Okay, with one franchise?

Yeah, one team or one franchise. Oh, my God. Like John Cooper has done. is this person still, this person's not still coach it. No. Al Arbor, New York Islanders? Yeah, excellent. In fact, Al Arbor got to seven, I think it's over seven, it's almost 800.

780 or something is the number for Arbor. So Arbor is right. Let's go. And I think there's one other guy and it's an old school. It's not even, it's not even Dick Irvin who did. it. I believe Toe Blake, I'm just double-checked. Toe Blake got to 500 on the button

with Montreal. I knew it had to be one of those old-timey coaches. I can't believe I got that. So did Billy Ray who coached Chicago way back when, like kind of in the Hall-McKita era, I think. He got to five. But that's, like,

we're talking exclusive company here. Anytime you're joining to Blake and Al Arbor on a list, you've done something right. Hall of Fame credentials. I mean, John Cooper is proven to be the, it's kind of like how we view, we once upon a time viewed Greg Popovich,

where even if there are other guys in the NBA, even if there are other coaches who were having coach of the year type seasons, we all kind of looked at Greg Popovich as like the best coach in the NBA. I feel as if John Cooper is in a similar form with that. Yeah, we're going to look at other guys this year, and make cases for them to be coach of the year. But John Cooper, who's managed to hold onto his position, what, I think he's probably the longest standard coach in the league at this point?

John Cooper, yeah. Yeah. Like we put him on a different tier of coaches versus anybody else. Yeah, it's funny. You often use this conversation when you're talking about, if you had a game seven, you had one goalie, who would you pick? Or one starting pitcher in a game seven. We often don't frame it with you have one game seven.

you have one game seven and you need a coach to kind of get your team ready. In the NHL right now, I think you'd go, John Cooper. I think. I feel as if, I don't know if other people feel differently. I don't think there's a better, I don't think there's a better indicator of who the best coach in the league is beyond, you know, if you're, if you're putting together a best on best team in an international tournament,

which coach are you using as your head coach? And like right now, John Cooper would be the head coach for Team Canada. here's another thought that just came to mind. We think about all these players who could be playing for Team USA and how if we had a best on best tournament right now with NHL players, there's a good chance they'd enter the tournament as the favorite. Who's coaching that team? Torrance, baby.

You think John Tortorell is coaching that team? No, no, I don't know. I think that's a genuine question. Boy, good question. Like who, like who? Mike Sullivan's. American, right? Mike Sullivan might be the pick, right?

Considering what he's been able to do with Pittsburgh all these years, right? And he's coached the international level. Yeah, two cups and you're American. Boy, Lavillette, maybe. Yeah, he has all that experience. He's won a Stanley Cup too. I'm trying to think of other guys who would probably,

who would work for this, right? Like, I don't know if we're having, I mean, maybe it's because Mike Sullivan should just be the guy, but I am curious about who would probably fit the bill for that too. You say torts, we joke about torts, but I mean, you know, once upon a time, he might have been the answer. Oh, yeah. I mean, he coached them, right?

At the Olympics, did he not? And what was that? 2014? One of those years he did, didn't he? I mean, this is a guy with, this was a hockey lifer, man. Like, I wouldn't surprise me if he did. I just, I feel bad of we're kind of stumbling a little bit trying to remember off talk here.

It's a classic Google as we're, as we're talking to John Totorella. Hey, Siri, did John Totorella coach Team USA? Yes. I thought he did in Vancouver or Sochi. So he did at the 2016 World Cup of hockey. That's it. He didn't coach at the Olympics? I don't know if he did.

Unless I'm missing something completely here. I don't think he did. No. I could be wrong. I'm not seeing it on Wikipedia here. He was assistant coach of Team USA in 0809. for world championship stuff. He was tapped to coach team USA

at the 2016 World Cup of hockey. But yeah, wait a minute. Then who coached all those Olympics? Was it Ron Wilson? It might have been. But yeah, he was also an assistant coach for the Olympics. But I don't think he was the head coach. I could have sworn Tororella was in Vancouver.

And now I'm. So he was. But not as the main head coach. Oh, okay. Okay. That makes sense. But was Ron Wilson the coach in 2010? Okay.

We need to figure this out before. What is wrong with us? What is wrong with us? I'm the guy who asked you a trivia question at the end of the show. And now we have all these listeners screaming at their devices. Oh my God. Okay. Okay.

Okay. It is Ron Wilson. Okay. It's Ron Wilson. I forgot about that. I forgot about Ron Wilson. There was a time when he was coached USA, who's coached the Leafs, Ron Wilson.

Yeah. Let's get out of here before we. further expose our lack of hockey knowledge. No, it's not that. It's just we forget stuff. It happens. Oh, guys.

Like, it happened, like, I'm sorry, man. It happens where, you know, you're trying to think of these guys,

and it just doesn't come to you right away. But then all of a sudden, you get asked who's coached over, who's one over 500 games with the team, and Al Arbor pops to your head. I don't think of Al Arbor every moment, but for whatever reason he popped to my mind. head. You nailed it. I don't know. I'm allowed to yell about this one because I got Al Arbor.

You got Al Arbor. All right, we'll leave it there and we're going to hand things off to the very capable trio of Haley Salveon, Sean Jen, Tilly Max Bolton. They'll have your Thursday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show coming up later this week. So make sure you tune into Haley Max and Sean tomorrow. If you get the opportunity, we want to thank you for listening to this Wednesday edition of The Athletic Hockey Show. leave us a five-star rating and review. You know that Julian and I, we certainly appreciate that. You can follow us on YouTube at YouTube.com slash at the athletic hockey show.

Right now, a one-year subscription to the athletic. It's available to you for $2 a month. And you visit the athletic.com slash hockey show.