The Athletic Hockey Show - Corey’s best U23 NHL players and prospects, USA Hockey BioSteel All-American Game thoughts, and more

Episode Date: January 20, 2023

First, Max and Corey deep dive into Corey’s midseason best NHL players and prospects under 23 ranking and discuss Matty Beniers jumping into the top-5, Alexander Nikishin at No. 23, the still undetermined best player from the 2022 NHL Draft, and more.Plus, to close things out, Corey and FloHockey’s Chris Peters discuss the USA Hockey BioSteel All-American Game as a concept, how the game’s top players performed, if Will Smith is a lock to be the first American-born player drafted this summer, and more. Subscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowGet a 1-year subscription to The Athletic for $2 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshowCancel unwanted subscriptions – and manage your expenses the easy way – by going to http://rocketmoney.com/hockeyshowGo to http://grammarly.com/tone to download and learn more about Grammarly Premium’s advanced tone suggestions.Visit our sponsor Better Help at http://betterhelp.com/NHLSHOW today to get 10% off your first month Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. Hey, everybody, Max Boltman here alongside Corey Pranman for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show's Prospect Series. Chris Peter is going to join us a little bit later on, but we're going to dive right in here, Corey, to your under 23 rankings. Always really interesting when these come out, especially midseason. It's fun to see who has made the big jumps. And we'll start toward the top of this list. not a huge jump in terms of difference, but Maddie Baneers goes from a guy you had

kind of in the early teens, into your top five. I think that's justified, given the kind of season he's out to with the Seattle Cracken. But what in his game was it that most kind of fueled his rise for you into a tier with,

you know, you got him now, not too far behind the Jack Hughes, Rasmus Dahlin top tier. Right. And I think with Maddie, we always saw a guy with, you know, a good side center who skated well,

who competed hard. had good hockey sense. The question always, whether it was his junior days or even early into those college dates, is how much was the offense going to be there? And he's answered that question, at least in the first half of this season, in a pretty decisive way. He is scoring at a very high clip. He's a driving player on one of the top offensive teams in the league.

It plays an important role in their power play, while providing that competitiveness and the details in his two-way game. You compare him to say other guys I have in close range to that, you know, he's pretty similar in scoring to say Trevor Zegras, who is a pure offensive skill type. By no means that he has the same level of skill or offensive creativity of Zegris. That he's even, and we'll see long term, I would imagine Zegris is going to score more over the course of his career. But he's showing that he has a lot of offense to go at the size, the competitiveness, the two-way ability. it's a very complete player and thus makes him one of the best young players in hockey currently. I think we could probably tie in Dylan Cousins to a similar conversation to that about kind of this idea that, you know,

offense is more than skill and creativity. Like it can be created in different ways. And those two guys, I think both of them in your top five here are a good example of that. Right. And both of them did see their skill and hockey sense ratings get increased a little bit from before. You know, you've got to give their, you know, the cousins. kind of same thing with Benyers. Like he's on the top powerplay of arguably the best offense in the NHL right now.

You don't do that if you don't have a significant amount of skill. But he also is 6-3 and a right-shot center and really competitive and hard to play against. Those are two centers that a lot of teams around the league would love to have like that. Those are rare type of players. Another guy who made a big jump, Wyatt Johnson goes from, I think, the 60s. He's into the low teens now here. And I'm curious about this one because I know we're projecting always here, but it's not like he's having Baneers-level production right away in the NHL.

So what are you seeing to pump him up as high as he is? Well, there's a little bit of, you know, just for context. So Dallas, great team. A lot of offense on that team, deep lineup, and he's a teenager. You know, Maddie's, you know, a little bit older than him. So you got to adjust for that a little bit. Johnson also, the trajectory where you looked like at a guy who was one of the best. best players in the OHL last season.

He was arguably the best and he won the most outstanding player award. Then he comes into the NHL as a teenager and plays an important role on a top team as a teenager. You look at the tools where you look at the skill, the hockey sense really stand out. This is a very competitive player. You watch him, even though his skating isn't amazing. He's still winning battles against men at such a young age. You know, when I talk to Saskatchew in the league, I hear like a David Craachie comparable being used for this guy. And I see a guy with a lot of potential and a guy who just keeps getting better.

And I don't think I'm outside of the consensus of people in the league that I talk to that. I think this is one of the premium young players in the NHL. You know, we could probably even do something bigger on Dallas on this conversation here with some of the talent that they brought it. A lot. I mean, obviously, I think the storyline on Dallas for a couple of years has been how good this, you know, Jason Robertson, Jake Ott and Jimira Heiskin in classes. but these few years since where they've picked up Wyatt Johnson, they've picked up Logan Stank of it. Rupé Hens is a hell of a pick too.

Rupé Hens, right. I mean, they have found a way to really turn this over and get some really good prospects with only really having the one super high pick. Right, and I think you kind of like, there is a trend here where if you go back to when Jim Nill was in Detroit, that was his forte, right?

Was the draft? Yep. And it seems like, you know, him and some of the people he brought over with him from Detroit have had a lot of success in Dallas. You know, we still have to see, you know, what Johnson ends up ultimately becoming and what, you know, Logan Stancovin or Thomas Harley or Liam Bischel end up becoming. But yeah, I think if you're a Dallas Stars fan, you have to really like the foundation that's been built here right now.

And another team, and we've very touched on Dylan Cousins, but Buffalo is a team that is really starting to have some high pieces. Everyone knows Rasmus Dahlin, who, you know, on this list is number one. I think that's a great debate to have between Dalene and Jack Hughes right now, two of the very best players in the NHL this season. Yeah, I mean, I think he referenced to Dom's awards watch list. I think he has Jack Hughes in the Hart conversation, and he has Dalene and the Norse conversation.

And if I voted today, they'd both be on those ballots for me. Oh, 100%. And it's like, yeah, I think you could have really interesting debates on which one is better. I mean, they're both outstanding hockey players. But Buffalo, like, you start to scroll this list a little bit, and you have the two, you know, left defenseman, number one overall picks, Dahlia Dufin Power in the top 10. You got Dylan Cousins in there, like we said. But you've also got Yuri Coolidge's in that picture. Matthias Samuelson makes a big jump from unrated into, I think he's around the top 50 for you here now.

Like the weight is paying off for the Sabres here. Jack Quinn, Peturka on that Cousins line have been excellent this year. and they obviously have really talented players who maybe haven't either made the team or haven't hit their potential like Peyton Krebs. You have a top 10 pick in Matthew Savoy still waiting in the wings there that I think given the offensive success of this team you can afford to be very patient with a guy like that. Yep. You know, they obviously picked Noah O'Slin in the draft last year too with a high pick.

There is a lot of good things going on in Buffalo right now. Not every one of those young guys are going to hit, but you, you want to give yourself a lot of bullets for those scenarios. And I think, you know, you're starting to see, at least at the NHL level, the offensive part of it start to really pay off. And if, you know, if they find a way to keep the puck out of their net, this could be a really dangerous team for a long time. One of the things I was thinking about as we were prepping for the show here was, you know,

how many teams right now would be, would not trade places with the Buffalo Sabres? Buffalo Sabres probably aren't going to make the playoffs this year. But they are one of the highest scoring, if not, I think as of a few days ago, they were the highest scoring team in the NHL, to have this kind of farm system coming, this kind of contract situation coming, you know, obviously you got the Jeff Skinner contract, but I think it honestly gets wiped out by the Tage Thompson contract at this point. How many teams would not trade places with the Buffalo Sabres? As of today, January 10, 2023.

It's got to be a really small number. Like, really, really. I think you might count it on a hand. Yeah, like, you know, you obviously like, I think if you're Carolina, you really like where you are. Yep. I think even though. The Jersey is probably pretty happy. Yeah, Edmonton, probably just because the special players they have there.

I'm running out of names. I mean, here's one, like Toronto. You trade if you're Toronto. Toronto could be the best team in the league this year. That's possible. Yeah, I think you got to burn, you know, burn in the hand type of thing. Yeah, that's fair. Colorado.

Yeah, I think you got to be happy with the success you've already had and as opposed to the success you could have. It's not much more than that, though. Like, you know, I think you're in single digits. Is that fair to say? Yeah, I think so. So good news for the people out in Buffalo. I want to talk about some more of the people who have really climbed this list for you, Corey.

And I think kind of a theme trend-wise would be kind of these mobile defensemen. Kevin Kourchinsky makes a huge jump from outside the top 100. Pavel Minchikov, another guy from this most recent draft class makes a big jump. Caden Gouli makes a similar jump. All three of these guys were outside the top 100 preseason, I believe, inside or at least right around the top 40 for you now. Yeah, and this is something we talked about, I forgot what episode we've done, we've done a lot of episodes lately. I think it was what you got wrong, prospects you were wrong about, yeah. Right, I just forgot when we did that one.

That, yeah, there was a, obviously I need to make a systemic change in how I was addressing these, you know, the big mobile or even the big mobile physical defensemen. You know, Samuelson and Gouli both are big guys who play, you know, a really high-end brand in physicality. Khorchinsky's a six-two high-end skating defenseman. And so I think those were systemic changes. You even saw like at the top of the list, Jake Sanderson, even though the Delta in terms of the pure number wasn't great, when you, I think he moves up like 15 spots, which is significant at that part of the list,

that I know I had to make a value adjustment for those type of players. And I think you saw that there with those guys that, you know, moving Sanderson, Gully, Kortinski, into a place where they're more traditionally valued within the league and more in line with their pro projection. So you got Kurchinsky out of Minchikov, but I think you can put those two guys really as a package. And where do they go?

Kortinski goes seven in the draft last year. Mnchikov, I believe, went 10. Are they still, I mean, where are they going if you redo that draft today? It's been not that long, but. No, but they both had excellent seasons. Obviously, Kortinski didn't really play much of the World Juniors, and he kind of fought his way down the line up there a little bit. But when he was watching in Seattle, he's been like,

out good. They're a little different where I think Korninski is a little bigger and a better skater than Minchikov. Minchikov is a good skater, but Kornikov is an exceptional skater. And whereas Minchikov, I think, has a little bit more pure offense, a little bit more skill, pure scoring ability in his game. Both, I think, would go top 10 if we did that draft. I think it would be, when we did that draft, I think there was a consensus top two defense

Finn like, oh, it's Eurocheck and Nemitz and then and then we'll see what happens after that. I think those two guys would be closer to those guys right now. I think they would be, instead of a group of two, it would be a group of four. And then who you like best out of the four. I mean, to me, Eurocheck's evident a year that would be hard to dock him at all from, from sure, from where he went. But yeah, no doubt. Maybe one more guy we can kind of, you talk about kind of this player adjustment you've made.

Alexander Nekishin is a defenseman playing in Russia right now. Carolina prospect. He's moved up into around your top 25 here, Cor. I think he's at number 23. But he seems like he may be one of the very top defense prospects not in the NHL right now. Yeah, you can reasonably argue, I believe he's the other 20 or 21 years old right now in the KHL. And I think you could argue he's been the best defenseman in the KHL this season.

He is playing big minutes for arguably the best team in that league, Scott St. Petersburg. he's a 6-3-6-4 mobile defenseman who was really physical and we've always kind of known those parts about his games what's been different this year is the offense his offensive game has jumped up significantly from where he was as a junior and definitely what he's shown before as a professional he's one of the top scorer defensemen in that league

you watch him he's making all kinds of plays from the offensive blue line whether you know pinches or finding seams his shot as a threat. So this is a guy who looks like a really two, really good two-way defenseman as a pro. I think he'll be an excellent NHL player.

And it's just a matter right now for Carolina of when you get this guy signed because he is signed now for several more years in the KHL. And his situation reminds me not too dissimilar to Kiril Kapparzov situation. Not sure if he'll be that, that high end, but he is a really good hockey player.

maybe similar more to any Kuznetsov type of prospect when there was a long wait for him many years ago. So if you're a Carolina team that is squarely in your contention window right now, do you look at a situation like that and see, okay, well, right now I'm okay for at least the next year or two beyond this, because I've got my whole defense corps, at least the top four locked in when you think about Slavin, Burns, Shea, and Pesci, and this is really the window. It seems like these couple, two, three years are. or do you look at it as, and then Nikitian is going to replace those guys? Or do you look at it as so I should trade Nikitian and try to get something that can help me right now in my window?

That's really tough to trade that kind of player though, right? Like I know like he's in Russia and who knows when you're actually going to get him signed and get him over here. But like we have him rated, I think, right next to Kianne Miller on that list. And I can't imagine there's any package right now that you can offer the Rangers to get Kiyadh. obviously he's in the NHL, not outside the NHL, but that's a special type of player. It would need to be such a, it wouldn't have to be like one of those, like, oh, it's a nice rental package. Like, oh, you know, a good top four defenseman and whatever kind of thing. You would need to get like some, a really special piece coming back your way.

Yeah, you're right. It's right next to Kandremyler, right behind Bowen Byram and only a couple behind David Eurocheck. So that's the class that we're talking about Nikesian in, although, yeah, and I think all in the same tier as well. So interesting stuff for the Carolina prospect. And Carolina's amassed so many of those kind of early mid-round picks that you figured you would find a couple of pieces like this. And this looks like one of them. We're going to take a quick break right there.

We'll be right back. All right, Corey, let's pick this back up. And let's pick it back up with the most recent draft class because I think one of the big storylines as we entered the 2022 draft was a little bit of drama at the top that that obviously came to fruition on draft night with Yerai Slavkovsky going, number one after what seemed like more than a year of Shane Wright to number one talk. On this list, it doesn't look like you've necessarily kind of close the book on the debate here. You've got Slavkovsky is still, I think, the highest of the bunch.

But then you've got Kuhli and Yurichick right back to back after him and Shane Wright not too far behind. Can we just kind of talk about kind of what's the, how's the 2022 class taken shape for you? I mean, obviously Yurichick moving to three feels like a story. Shane Wright being right about where he went. But what's kind of your storyline out of the 2022 class so far? Well, I think what made the 2022 draft discussion so interesting is we thought that it was a really close race at the top, despite what some other people might have said at the time to you and me or just in general, that this was a very close discussion.

There were reasonable alternatives. You could have gone in different directions at number one or number two. and we've seen now six months since then. There has been no one player that has emerged and clearly said, I'm the best guy from this draft. Like I know, for example, there's been some harping on the play of your Islovka-Kof-Koski, Montreal. That he's not maybe stood out on a consistent basis.

He is an 18-year-old in the NHL, mind you. But I get it. When you pick number one, you're spending it got to come in and be impactful. But then I say, okay, you know, sure. I get that. But then tell me who they should have picked otherwise. Who's having this amazing season? And you look around the league and Kooli's having a very nice year.

Logan Kooli is having a very nice year in college. It's not lighting the world on fire for a guy who's a pure offense. He's having a great year, though. He's a great player. I mean, on my list, those two players couldn't be closer to each other. Eurechecks having a fantastic season. Great year in the American League, great world junior. you know, you can quibble maybe on the skating.

That's the one concern there a little bit. That would be different from Sikovsky and from Kuli that made you wonder a little bit about his ultimate pro upside. But he's right there with those guys. You know, Wright's pretty much been the same guy. He was last year not a whole lot of change in that data. Kortinski, Mitchikov, mentioned having a great year. It's not sure it'd be good enough to say.

They're the best player in the draft. Nemich, you know, obviously, again, you know, similar kind of player you saw last year. so it's still a very unclear draft class. A lot of very good hockey players, but I can't sit here today and tell you, well, you know, that guy has clearly looked like the guy from the draft.

What I think is kind of interesting is, especially, and we talked about this at the time, when Owen Power did not go straight into the NHL. I think it's a good thing for young hockey players right now that it is becoming more normal. And we're going to see it shattered next year when Connor Bedard comes in and is awesome. But it's a good thing that guys,

are not having to be expected to be rushed and be stars in the NHL right away. I think this is a positive development for hockey prospects. Yeah, I mean, you look at that Michigan class. You look at Baneers and Power. They both go back for an extra year. You both could have argued they were ready at the time. They both played versus men, power, you know, and Benir's both went to the World Championships.

Power was excellent at that World Championships. And then they both go back for an extra year of college and they step in as rookies and they are impactful rookie players right away. Absolutely. I want to talk about some guys who did go right into the NHL. And we'll broaden it beyond these two. But the New York Rangers guys, we talked about Alexei Lefranier on the last episode, Capocaco. They're still right around the top 30 for you.

So still a believer in both of these guys. Let's bring Quentin Bifield into this conversation who takes a different route. And Shane Wright, who we're now seeing going back to junior, how do you size up these guys? And how do you think kind of the path that they've taken inform how they kind of got to the same spot on your list? list, basically. Right. I think with those guys, you still have to remember how young they are. And you can play all kinds of hypotheticals of, well, where would this guy be if you had

taken this path? But you still have to remember what Byfield is, what LaFranier is, what Kako is. And Kako has been playing a lot better of late and scoring and showing kind of that skill, power combination you saw when he was a young player and maybe taking him a little bit more time to develop Byfield. after going down in the American League playing very well down there, and now he's up. Now he's playing regular minutes with the Kings again,

and we'll see whether that persists or not, but there's still a lot of tools there. But there's some guys right around this same range of the list who are either not in the NHL or just making the NHL. And there is a degree of patience that you need to have. Like, I don't know, like Anton Lindell, who's a couple spots behind those guys, is not having a huge year in the NHL right now.

now, but I'm not hearing anybody tell me about how, like, Lendell's a bus. He's having a very good year. He's a great, very young player, and he's a horn and roll for Florida, but he wasn't picked first overall or second overall, so there's a difference there. So I get, especially with Lefranier, the lack of progress is concerning. We talked about that before. Even with by field, the lack of progress is a little concerning. But I think you've got to wait a little bit before you start sounding the alarm that these

are no longer very good hockey players with excellent track records who, yeah, at some point, the evidence will become overwhelming if things really don't start going well at some point. But when you're 20, 21 years old, that point is not there yet for me. Well, especially for the guys who do go straight into the NHL. I mean, you look at Shane Wright this year and he goes to spend his five games or whatever that he's allowed to spend in the AHL, and he has four goals in those five games. If Shane Wright was on that kind of pace over a full season right now, I think the discourse around him would be a lot more generally positive. You look at a guy like Capocaco, who has been in the NHL since he arrived.

And I think by now, he's finally at a point at age, I think he's 21 now. Maybe he might be 22, but I think he's 21. Like, the vibe around him is much more positive than it was a year ago. And I think that is something we need to be mindful of in general with the guys who do go straight to the NHL, that it is just going to take him more time. I think a year from now, who knows what the discourse around Alexei Lafranier is going to be, but I'm willing to bet it's going to be more positive than it was last week. Right. You know, and same draft class, same thing being late birth dates.

Lafranier's got 18 points in 40 games. He goes first overall. In the same draft, Jack Quinn, who I think the fides around him being much more positive. Very positive. He has 17 points in 33 games. It's a higher point per game. It pays. But like, these are not.

dramatic worlds apart by any means. And I love Quinn's very highly rated. He's in the same tier as last year, which would have been a very hot take a couple of years ago, but is no longer based on what Quinn has done over the last two years in pro hockey. But again, these are still very young players. Yeah, absolutely.

One guy who I don't know that we've ever really given the full shine to on this podcast is Noah Dobson, a guy who turned in a 50-point. season from the blue line for the Islanders last year. And he is on pace to do it again. Obviously, a top 12 pick. Noah Dobson always been a highly regarded prospect. But what's been the jump that you've seen him make? And obviously, he's now on a point on your list where he's right next to Owen Power, like that level of defenseman, kind of all-star caliber player for you. I think when you watch Dobson and Jr., he was like kind of a weird one, when you watch him

earlier in the year, when he was a draft, so many years ago already. You saw a big mobile guy. You weren't sure if there was offense there. And then the year kind of went on and he was on, and he ended up just, you know, really standing out over the course of his draft. You elevated from a guy who might be a, you know, good player to a high draft pick. And now you're starting to see the 6-4 mobile defenseman who's making plays and playing big minutes and shutting down off and the opponent's top lines.

And there was so much to like there. But I wasn't always 100% sold. like when I saw the World Juniors the year after, I wasn't always told that the offense was going to be, I thought there would be good offense. I didn't think he was going to do what he is now, where he is a hugely important part of that power play in New York and is a premier puck-moving type of defenseman who,

and the shot was always a weapon in junior, and it's proven to be a weapon in the NHL as well. If anything, I'm surprised that he's not like a penalty killer at that level. I know they have a lot of really good. a defenseman in New York. And, you know, there's guys who can be matchup guys there. I thought he could be that guy. He still might be that guy with time.

But if anything, I thought that would be more his role than what he is now, which is, you know, an offensive weapon type of player to go with the size and the skating. How about Mason McTavish, another guy who, you know, you talked about the Delta doesn't get that big when you get up high in the list. But he's the guy who goes from outside the top 20 to now he's knocking on the door, the top 10. Right. And now you can start, I think when you talk to around the league, you could start having reasonable debates, which I think a year or two ago, especially a year ago, people got a little skirmish on who's better, him or Zegris.

And I think, talk to the NHL people, like they're not 100% convinced that McAvish in five years won't be the better of those two players. Well, that was always the thing with him, right? Is he's kind of your, if you're projecting him, you're thinking of him as hopefully kind of your Ryan O'Reilly player. And Trevor Zegris is not in that mold. But to have both of them, I think that's kind of, you don't, if you're Anaheim, who fucking cares who's better? You got both, right? Like, you want both of them. Right.

You know, it's, and nowhere even closer to the same thing, but it's kind of how, you know, Pittsburgh always had Crosby and Malkin. One was a more complete player. One was the pure offensive player. In this sense, you know, maybe that is a little more similar with the Orion-O-Rinley example you gave where, yeah, no, I, Zegris may never be your greatest two-way player. you're ever going to see. He may not even be when they're ready to contend and who knows when that's going to be. But, you know, one day in the future when they're ready to contend, I'm not even 100% certain he's going to be a center on a, on a contending team. But the rise of McTavish now gives you those options at the top of the line because he is that prototypical

number one all around centerman. Yeah. No, I think Anaheim's in a good spot here. And Olin Zellweger is a guy who dips a little bit on this list, but still there's a presence here for the Anaheim ducks up high on this list. And Minchikov and, you know, unfortunate about the Jamie Drysdale injury this season. And, you know, we'll see what he is when he eventually comes back and how his next season goes. But I think him and Minchikov are two excellent deep prospects to have. And they're going to have a very high pick again this year. And so we'll see what the next step in that rebuild is for them.

Of the three centers at the top of the draft, the Anaheim could, obviously, obviously pick top three in this draft. Which of the three are you picking at center over Zegris, and which of the three would you flex onto Zegris's wing, Bedard, Carlson, and Fintilly? Right. Well, I mean, you could talk to people in the league who are 100% convinced that Carlson and or Bader are going to be centers in the NHL.

That's what I mean, yeah. So which would you rather be a center than Zegris and who would you rather? I think if you, I would rather have Carlson down the middle as opposed to Z, I think. But I think I probably would want Bader on Z's wing because I think he could be kind of like the goal scoring threat to Zegris's playmaking. Especially if you already have McTavish, right? Like you can like, you have that,

I would rather have McTavish in the middle than Carlson. I think if you're trying to project out the lines a little bit. But again, these are all hypotheticals. We'll see what we'll see what time. I just can't see a world where Fantili is in an NHL center. I think he like checks every single box. And you will move Zegris for,

to put Fantilly in the middle in the NHL. Yeah. Man, Badd and Ziegress on a line would be highlight dreams. And it would be so, Anaheim would be on SportsCenter every single night at that point. It's, and it's not far outside the realm of possibilities.

No, it's not. Let's talk about a couple more teams here who are in this rebuild state. You expect to see big presences from them high on this list. Detroit, obviously, one of them. Moritziter, you know, takes some, he was number two on your midseason.

He goes back to number eight, still, you know, within the top 10. Likewise, Lucas Raymond goes from fringe of the top 10 to end of the top 20, but also some risers here with Carter Mazur, Elmer Soder Blum. How do you kind of stack up Detroit, especially as we talk about the Buffaloes, the New Jersey's, the Anaheims, these teams on the same timeline? I think you have to generally like the state of the system right now. I think you have to like that you're seeing some guys with positive trends who are not the premium picks. It's not Simon Evanson, it's not Marco Casper.

Both of them are very highly rated prospects still. And holding steady in your race. Yeah, yeah. They're great prospects. You think they're going to be upper half of the lineup guys, important parts of good teams. But you have to like what Carter Mays. Carter has been one of the best players in college hockey this season. Has, not only is he scoring, but he has pro traits with the skating and the compete

to go with all the goals he's scoring this year. So you're really excited by that. I think you look at, you know, I've never been the biggest William Villander guy before, but I think you look at what he's doing with Rogel this season and he's playing big minutes and he's scoring a lot and he's a big part of that power play with the go with the size and the skating

and it's hard not to think, okay, I see a path now for you that I didn't always see for you to become an important player on an NHL team. And obviously Soderblum his skating has been and continues to be a work in progress

and I know he was kind of up and down a little bit in the first half this year but he's a very positive trend and you have to imagine he'll be a part of their lineup one day. So in that sense, very positive elements. On the other hand, the guys at the top of the lineup are the ones who will ultimately determine whether you win a championship

or playoffs or not. And how, from your perspective, have you been handling the discourse on Sider and Raymond this season with your Detroit readers? It's been fascinating. because I think there has been frustration. I think it's warranted in a lot of ways. But I also think there is, you expect some sophomore slumps, right?

Like, you're not going to have straight the arrow pointing up for most players, right, in the NHL. And I think especially with the kind of usage that Cider in particular gets, he's getting the toughest matchups. Dom's got the little bars on his player cards that, and his is maxed out. I mean, we mentioned, you know, the Calder finalist, you know, the other one was Zegris. He's not really having the big year you thought he was going to have.

He's having a very nice year, but, you know, I think you would have thought there would be a little bit more progression there. But I think your point is an important one because I don't have any doubt that still Moritziter is still a top pair of defenseman. I still think he's a number one defenseman. But if you're the Red Wings, you really need him to be an elite number one defense. You need him to be like a top 10 defenseman in the NHL. And I think you can make a similar, albeit I think the, you know, you're probably not talking about Lucas Raymond is one of the 10 best forwards in the NHL. But you need him to be like a really high level. winger. And if he's just a top six or even top line winger, like, then you're missing a piece

again, right? And so the stakes are huge there. And I think that's why the reaction has been as kind of urgent as it has been from the Red Wings fan base. I think they know that. But it, you know, it's your favorite phrase, Corey, time will tell. Like, we're not going to know what it's going to be for these guys based on, you know, the game that they're playing against the Maple Leafs or whatever. We're going to know it in two, three years. Cider is the one that's the most interesting just because the stakes with him in particularly are the highest. I think when we were, you know, looking at the end of last year when he won the Calder, when he was just lights out good, you know, big minutes, 50 points, superb physical and defense play. You're like, okay, this is

the next guy. Like, he's on the crisp pronger trajectory. Like this, he looks like he's got everything. And now, but like these were the discussions we had with Cider a little bit over the previous years, when maybe there was like, okay, yeah, he looks like an excellent prospect, but here's why it may not be the perfect outcome. And it was, we weren't always 100, I wasn't, and some scouts I talked to weren't 100% convinced this was going to be a high-end offensive guy in the NHL. He has the big offensive year last year.

This year, not as much kind of on and off the PP1 a little bit, although I think it's been more consistent of late. You know, what do you think is this going to be this guy's ultimate offensive trajectory? Well, I think part of it, you know, he was on the first power play last year. He's not this year. And when I look long term for the Red Wings, I still don't necessarily see who should have power play one over him, right? But if that guy comes into the fold, that affects the point producing ceiling, right? But I've always kind of felt like he slots into kind of the Muriel Heiskinin range, where in a given year, you're probably somewhere between 35 and 55 points. Can you get hot for a playoff run and be dynamic? And he was a point per game player those playoffs Heiskinin was. Yes, but I don't think you have, you know, Kill McCar point per game there with Moritz-Sider. Right. I don't think you necessarily need him to be because I think he's a bigger presence, obviously,

than McCar as defensively. Right, yeah, no, for sure. You know, he's big and really physical and skates well. So, you know, you obviously don't see a lot of defensive value there. But, yeah, I think that's kind of the debate with Sider. Like, you know, does he, you know, where does he ultimately fit in with the offense? Because even if he is just, you know, off the age. Miroh High, I believe he's producing more than he ever has because Klingberg's gone.

And that's, you know, that's obviously important context. But yeah, I think if you just get pretty good offense from Sider with his defensive value, he's going to be a superstar. But like I said, that's interesting following that. Because I think of with Raymond, he is purely offense. So there's not really a whole lot too-way values. You need him to score a lot. But the states are- I think there can be. He's not big or anything like that. I know he's not super fast, super big. he's really smart. It would not surprise me to see him like kill penalties. And he competes hard too, I think. You know, I'd not mean to just barrage Raymond. I love the play. I know, I know. But I just mean like with cider, the stakes are just higher. Like you need that guy to be the star.

You thought he was going to be a, you know, last year, even two years ago. I mean, entering the year, I think you had reasonable hope that this was a legit, like, franchise player. And I think you can still have that hope for sure. But I just think that that's why the stakes are higher. And that's where he's rated on my list right now. He's still rated in that, you know, in the same tier as Zegras and Stutzla and Andrei Feshnikov. These are special high value players and organizations. But he's the last one on the list too because there is starting to be some least some minor concerns. So he's a 50 point guy last year. If he's, let's say he tops out at 55 points, like 55 is his career high. Is that you're confident enough that with what the defense is,

is that enough? Is it even better? I think if he's, between 35 to 45 in a given year with the defensive value. That's still a, that's still a mega piece. But if he's like 25 to 35, then maybe you're like, it's not as impactful as I once hoped. Because what's Jacob Slavin, right? Jacob Slavin's never been that crazy offense. No, but you probably wouldn't talk about him as the top three top. Some people might have him top five defensemen, some maybe not, right?

He's had a fifth place Norris finish. But I get your point. Like, it's not consensus, and that's not every year. Like, it's more often, like, between 9 and 18. Like, most people would have Charlie McAvoy ahead of him, I think, on a consistent basis if you ask him to rank the defenseman. Yep. Yep.

And then, and so maybe that's the difference between, like, a Slaven and Aaron Eckblad, who I think kind of is in that, you know, right around that top five every year that he's healthy. So, yeah. All right. We won't wear on too much more for Detroit. But I do want to go to another Atlantic Division team that's on this rebuild track in the Ottawa senators who, if you go back and you go back and you, you go back and

you do that 2020 draft, Corey. Based on your rankings, it looks like Ottawa got the two top players out of that draft in Tim Stutzel and Jake Sanderson. As it stands right now, it is looking that way, and it's hard to really argue for anybody else. I know by field and Lafrenier are very talented players. Raymond is a very talented player,

but you look at the toolkits and what they're doing in the NHL right now, and both Stutzla and Sanderson have very unique athletic toolkits, and they are performing at high levels. So I think I don't see an argument right now that they aren't the guys. Who else needs to be kind of the guys you see take one more step for Ottawa in this rebuild? I think we've seen a lot of their big guys have now debuted. You know, Shane Pinto is high on your list as well. Who's the most important guy for Ottawa here over the next year or so to take a step?

Is it Tyler Boucher? Is it, you know, Yorventi? Who are you looking at here? The thing obviously Boucher health permitting is an important piece. and the health is a big component there with Boucher got injured again towards the end of the world juniors. I haven't heard a prognosis on how significant that is, but he's been frequently injured, which has been an issue with his development. I think we've been the most common name, but I think Mad Shogart's going to be a really important piece of them long term.

In terms of figuring out their goal tending long term, he is a 6-7 athletic goalie. When I've watched him in the American League over the last season a bit when he's been healthy, I've been impressed by him. I think if getting that guy to hit will be pretty important, and then probably in a second tier would be Greg, although I think we feel pretty confident Greg's going to play. Yeah. And he's kind of got that Dawson Mercerish quality to him, right?

Like that's the piece he brings. Yeah, not as big as him, but like, yeah, he is skilled and competes really hard, and there is some offense there. I think most scouts I talk to feel like, Greg's going to play. Yeah. All right, one more guy before I let you and Chris take it away with the biosteal game. Jimmy Snuggieroot is a guy who goes, obviously, I think, 23 in the 22 draft.

And if we redo it today, I got to think he's in the top 10 here in a redraft. Yeah, it was interesting. So I sometimes send this list around just to NHL people just to get feedback. And in the course of doing this, one of the interesting comments I kept hearing is, like, wow, you really have Snuggaroid way behind Logan Cooley. And when you've watched them between college and this year, it hasn't looked that much different. And that doesn't mean to say they're saying that Snuggaroot's in the same conversation as Cooley.

But they're like, you know, it shouldn't be that big a gap. And it's fair to say when you've watched Snuggler, he's showing a lot of offense. He works really hard. He's a good-sized winger. The issue with him from his pro projection is his skating, has never been a strength, still isn't a strength. That's the concern with him with the Blues,

but I mean, everything he's done, this year between being one of the very best players in college and then being one of the very best players of the world juniors makes you think that the Blues have a potential quality top six winger on their hands. Who was your comp on Snuggabrood coming into the draft? Do you remember? Was it To Foley?

Tanner Pearson. I was just going to say, though, to me, David Prawn's a guy who doesn't skate great. And maybe it's just the St. Louis factor here. But, you know, I wonder if Jimmy Snuggard can't be St. Louis's new David Perron. Yeah, no, there's a, that's special outcome. And maybe I should have maybe not used Pearson. That's probably a little harsh.

Maybe I wasn't trying to set you up for a disaster there. I was genuinely asking. To Foley or Perron maybe fit better than Pearson does right now. But obviously, if me and the rest of the league knew what was going to happen there, maybe I would have. Oh, no doubt. Things would have gone a little bit differently. No, I was not trying to troll you there. I was genuinely. I kind of thought it was

Peron, but just a couple letters off, honestly. So, but a great ride. It just speaks to his rise, right? I mean, he's turned himself into a really high-level prospect and one that I think St. Louis badly neat. It's going to be interesting in St. Louis, the direction that they could take here. Yeah. And I don't, yeah, it's hard to tell what you would do in that position, right? Because, like, they don't have a great farm system. Like, we'd snuggaroid's a great player, but there's not a lot coming there. and the team's got some talent, but there's guys underperforming or getting on the older side. And it's, I think they should be better than they are right now. Like I look at the roster and I just think they should be better.

But I think Doug Armstrong and his group have a lot of challenging decisions ahead for them. If I put you in the GM chair and you've seen this, this, you know, similar core, take, make a big turnaround and go win the Stanley Cup, but at the same time, you know the realities of the age, you know the realities of some of these contracts. How aggressive are you going to be shipping guys out at this deadline? I mean, if you're in that chair, it's a lot, it's an ownership call more than a year call kind of thing, but yeah, it's interesting when you talk to people, when I talk to people who work in management, you would be surprised how many of the decisions that you see NHL teams make and don't make actually comes down to the owner more than the

management group. They made a lot of big commitments in the last couple of years, right? To Thomas, to Cairo, to Paraco, to turn around and call this a rebuild all of a sudden. That would, Buknavish, too, like, it would be challenging. I would want to let it write out one more year, I think, before I, before I pulled a plug on this group. Even with the realities of the O'Reilly, Teresenko, UFA? Yeah, no. I mean, those, I thought you were talking about like a wholesale.

No, I am. I mean, I just am curious how deep it goes, but that I hear it. Yeah, I mean, everyone knows you got to move your UFAs if you're actually not in the playoff picture anymore kind of thing. But I'm not like, I'm not sure about, I'm ready to move like a core piece that I've signed just quite yet. Because I still think that, especially the Thomas contract, if you wanted to move it, you could. But I wonder what they do with the, you know, Bittington's kind of underperformed a little bit this year. Joel Hofer was excellent in the American League playoffs last year. He's been really good in the American League in the regular season this year.

Good track record was the top boy with the World Junior's a couple years ago. I wonder when he comes into this picture. Interesting stuff ahead in St. Louis. All right, that's it for me. Corey and Chris are going to pick it up here now and tell you about the All-American game. So we'll let you get to that. All right, everybody. We're going to have a unique segment here.

We're recording this segment after the Biosteal All-American Prospects game. And at this time, Max Baltman is, I think he's on vacation in Europe, but he says he's working. Regardless, there is no host now. So it's just Chris Peters and myself to discuss this game. So the inmates have officially taken over to the asylum. And it'll just be us too right now to discuss the All-American Prospects game. And we will discuss the All-American Prospects game. You know, we'll do the dance you expect of us.

We'll discuss who was good, who was bad. But Chris, before we get to that and discuss the game, I want to discuss the game. I want to discuss the game, meaning this game, the All-American Prospects game, which has taken a lot of twist and turns over the last few years. So for maybe a brief history lesson for people who aren't as informed on this game, there used to be two American prospects games or two prospect games in America. There was the All-American Prospects game that took place in the fall for a couple of years, usually in NHL buildings. and it comprised the NTP, high school players, college players, and players in junior. It was meant to be the best American draft eligibles. The major con was it was very early in the draft process, and because of that,

maybe some guys that might have risen or fallen what weren't encompassed enough in those games. I don't believe, Chris might correct me if I'm wrong, I don't believe those games did very well in terms of broadcasting. And obviously they were in NHL buildings and there was very few tickets sold to those games. I went to every single one of them. It was just pretty much parents and that was pretty much in the stands. And then there was another game, which was the USHL prospects game, which was the best draft out builds in the USHL. No nation had to be tied to them to be in that game.

And then USA hockey and the USHL decided to, instead of having these two distinct games, we're going to have one. It's going to be USA hockey and the USHL combining forces to have one showcase game, which has been the last three years, I believe, in Plymouth. It's been a combination of the NTDP and the best American-born prospects in the USHL. And they've tried this game for three years, Chris. Two years, I believe they did it as the NTP versus the USHL. And this year they had it as kind of a joint of the two, you know,

random assortment of players, and every single time in the last three years, this game has sucked. It's not a good hockey game. There is not enough talent on the ice. It is not a competitive hockey game. It's just, I don't think any of the scouts who I was talking to are really learning anything from these games. It's just not a good product. And it's frustrating because I think there is a way to do this right. I think there is a way to make this a good showcase game.

But it wasn't what they've tried so far. Now, I'm not saying they need to go back to do their own two games again. I actually like this concept of having in the middle of the year and maybe doing it together because I don't think the USHL prospects game by itself was a very good game. I actually liked the USA game in the fall. I thought that was a good game. But I liked the USA game had players from other leagues. And I like the USHL game had players that were not Americans in it.

And I realized trying to get maybe Quentin Mustie from Sudbury would be very difficult throughout this type of year. I don't think that's realistic. I don't think Charlie Strait was coming in from Wisconsin to play in this game. Maybe it would be possible, but probably wouldn't. But if you're going to have this USHL slash USAHHHs, showcase game, then make it the best players in the USHL in this game. You know, both, you know, definitely the guys who are drafted eligible this year.

Michael Rabal should be in this game. Maxime Sturbeck should be in this game. Jaden Perron, all guys who could be rather high draft picks in this upcoming draft, should have been in this game. And don't tell me that they're too proud to do this. They put Cole Sillinger in this game. And two weeks later, he was named the Canada's U-18 team. so clearly there's some wiggle room on this concept

and you know honestly like there's just so many guys on these rosters who are not you know good draft prospects who are may not there's going to be a decent chunk of the guys who are in this game who aren't even going to get drafted so why not put those guys in if you're going to put zeev boeum who's an underage and put macklin celebrini in this game

put artemble of shootoff some will argue well then should you put like james hagan and Cole Isman. Yeah, sure, why not? It's like, well, there you got to put the whole 17s in. No, you don't. Just have somebody rate the best players and put them in. And it may not be all about this year's draft,

but it'll be a hell of a showcase event. It'll be a great game. For TV, it'll be great. For, you know, to get the average fan educated on the best American prospects or the best players playing in America in the USHL, I think it would be a great showcase for the USHL to have those kind of talent in it. Anyways, that's the end of my rant.

I don't know if Chris actually can say anything about this. Well, I do want to say a couple of things because I think the first thing is, is that the initial idea of the American, the All-American Prospects game was a good one. Yes. Having players from prep school up to college to major junior, it got guys like Jason Robertson in the game. It got guys like, I think like Jay O'Brien played in the game. Like there were different players that.

I think Max Jones was in that game. Max Jones. Yeah. Like there were all these. these different players. And so you got to see the full landscape of USA hockey. And that ultimately was the idea. I think Jim Johansson is the, you know, the great late Jim Johansson was, it was his brainchild of let's get these guys together. And I think NHL teams were also eager to have their buildings open to the All-American Prospects game. The first year that, you know, they did it was, I believe,

the Seth Jones draft year. That was a very popular game. You know, it wasn't, again, attendance wasn't huge and different things like that, but it was, it was something. And I think that, you know, people watch it and it had a little bit more cachet. And then I do, I also kind of miss the old USHL prospects game, just the simple USHL prospect scheme where you do get the best players. And I think you can still have some room for some of those guys that are second year eligibles, guys like Sam Harris and others that have a chance to be drafted. I thought Michael Emerson was one of the best players in that game.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think giving the showcase of those talents. And then also, yes. And I would also say just like in the Canadian Junior Hockey League, they would often have the best underager, you know, who was draft eligible the following year, but was probably going to college or something like a Dylan Holloway would play in their top prospects game as well. And you want as many opportunities to put those players in front of audiences. Well, Charlie Strasy was in last year's game. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's right. That's right. And as you mentioned, you know, Z. Booiam this year. So, you know, but like having having those types of players, you want these showcase opportunities for your league. So I'll be interested to see kind of what the future holds.

The game has sponsorship. It has a TV. You know, it has a TV presence. So those are positive things for USA hockey and for the players that participate. But I would agree with you that the actual game itself has kind of suffered. Now, I think it's better than when they had the NTP versus the USHL. That game, though this game was better than the last two. last two were bloodbass and they just were just really it was this was wasn't good hockey but those were

those was really not good hockey yeah and i think the the north american league you know they used to do that too they would have their top prize they would play like a tournament where they'd have you know the ntdp teams play and and that that actually that was actually at that point really good too but um even though the games could get a little bit lopsided you were still getting a chance to see those players like i could also see uh you know a us hl top prospects team versus the ntdp I still think that would be pretty rough because you got a team that's been together all year and then an All-Star team. But I would prefer as well. And this is as an American, as somebody that worked at USA hockey, I feel like I want to see the best players that are playing within the United States.

Those players, they might be transferred from other places, but they're currently playing on a transfer agreement within the United States. They are part of USA hockey's umbrella, whether or not they can represent them internationally. The CHL is not too proud to do that. Quentin Mustie, he's hurt, so he won't be in the game next week, but he would have been there and they would have proudly displayed him as a Sudbury Wolf. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And that's, and that's the, you know, and that's what I hope that we would, we would be able to get to at some point. I think I would agree with you. I think that there definitely needs to be some massaging of this game because, you know, I've been to them, I've been to many of them as well. And, and in terms of, the best experience that I've had at one of these things, I think it was the one in Minnesota. Yeah. You know, that was... Was that the O-1 class with all like, with Boldie and Zegris?

Yeah, Matt Boldie was the, yeah, Matt Boldie was the MVP of that game. And Jack Hughes was in that game. Jack Hughes, yeah, I mean, and that was a great experience because then we saw all of those players. We saw Nick Robertson. We saw Artie Calli-Kalyev. We saw players that were high-end prospects for the draft, also within USA Hockey's umbrella. logistics of something like that, especially in the post-pandemic,

hopefully we can get back to something like that. The timing of that game, as you mentioned, Corey, is going to be the issue because I think the only time to have it is that early season time, and it's not the best time to do it. All the iterations of the game, I liked that one the best.

Maybe you got to put it in a junior ring because it didn't look, because the optics of it in the NHL ring kind of sucked. Yeah, you could put that game right in the USA hockey arena or travel it around to various junior buildings where there might be some more interest. Yeah.

I'm not saying this game is a bad idea. I want these showcase games. I think it's good to have these showcase games for the average fan to get exposure to a lot of these prospects. But I think there needs to be either minor to significant changes done because the actual product has underwhelmed that they've tried. And whether it's swallowing the pride on the only USA players front or just making some changes in terms of who is actually eligible to play in this thing. in terms of ages, such as putting in top underage USA players, I think they need to make some adjustments to the way this game is actually played. And with that said, let's actually talk about this game,

which there were four guys in this game that we think have pretty strong chances to go in the first round ofcoming draft, all from this year's US NTP group. That is Will Smith, Ryan Leonard, Gay-P-Pro, and Oliver Moore. who did you think was the best of those four players in this game? Well, you know, I mean, Will Smith got the MVP award. He did have the two goals. I think the guy that most consistently popped on a shift-to-shift basis for me was Oliver Moore.

I agree. Yeah, the speed, the intensity that he plays with, the skill level that he has, his goal scoring ability, the goal that he scored, just a really nice catch and shoot where he's kind of a, his stick position wasn't like in the optimum stick position they make a shot, It was a quick shot and he really got rid of it well. So to me, I thought that Smith and, you know, you were there. I was watching at home. I had some family obligations.

Couldn't actually go see it live. But he, you know, seeing Oliver Moore and Will Smith kind of do the things that we've expected, come to expect them to do. That was not really a surprise. You know, Smith ended up getting the two goals, one of which was on a penalty shot. And then more, to me, was the guy that. was just consistently like this is the kind of guy that, you know, is really trending up in this class. And he has been all season. Yeah, I actually didn't like Smith's game that much. But I mean, I only liked him in those two moments where he got the goals. I thought in general,

though, I thought his game was pretty sleepy in that, in that prospect game. I agree with you. I think more was the best player in that game. I think, you know, I think you see an NTP games where I think there's been several games this year where he's outplayed Smith on the same team. But I think seeing him on a different team and going kind of, you know, in maybe different colors, even make contrasts it even more that, hey, this guy is an excellent hockey player in his own right. He's the clear best pure skater in this draft.

And it's not just skating. I think there's a lot of things that like by this game. I think he works pretty hard with the program. He's often, you know, killing penalties and playing in hard defensive situations. And he's producing, you know, not amazing offense as some of those other guys we've mentioned, but there's still good enough offense in his game.

And it's why I think, you know, I agree he is a guy who is rising. I think this is a guy who is in the argument to be discussed among the premium names in this draft class. I think he's a great player. And it's interesting because I think what we started this year, I thought it was a, there was a presumptive number one with the USNs DDP. I think everybody myself and everybody I talked to around hockey kind of presumed this is Will Smith's year. he's the guy, nobody's close, and I think somebody's close. And Central Central Scouting actually released their list. I think they had Ryan Leonard one spot behind Will Smith, and I've talked to several scouts

who think more is close to Smith. And whether it's one or the other, I ask to pose a question to you, is Will Smith's lock on being the top USA-born player in this draft in Jeopardy. you know, I think being a lock at this point is absolutely, you know, it kind of depends on who's there when they're picking. Like for me, Will Smith is still the top player. I think he's, he's got the most offensive upside. I feel like he is the guy that can impact the game offensively most significantly. That said, I think that Oliver Moore has moved ahead. Like I had Ryan Leonard as the next guy. Oliver Moore has definitely moved in a positive direction, kind of

closer into that conversation. I think he is a top 10. prospect the way that he's played throughout the season because of the versatility because of the the amount of strength that he built from last season to this season seeing that progression in his physical uh you know and he's still he's got ways to go but he's still like that was that was a pretty dramatic physical transformation for him from one year to the next so you know those those are the things i like let me drop a little nugget in here for you you could you could don't answer today but you can percolate on it when you watch more over the next over the next few months.

How much does his skating remind you of Stutzel? Ooh, wow. Yeah, I mean, it is explosive, dynamic. The way I look at the way his edges work, I definitely see some rhymes. Yeah. Like I think his skating is a pretty special, special attribute. It is.

It is. You'll never miss them. You'll never miss them in a game. No, and I think that's, you know, again, I think it's why he's really appealing to himself to scouts right now. For me, the gap between him and Smith is,

is thin right now. And that's been the understanding among several scouts I've talked to as well. Again, whether it's him or whether it's him versus Leonard, I think there is at least more of a debate for the top U.S. born prospect in this year's draft. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I thought there was going to be when we, especially after the Five Nations in November,

I thought, okay, this is, that he's the guy. You know, no question about this. And like, yeah, that might be a question. We'll see, we'll see how the next few months go, how their February tournament goes, how the U18 World Championships go. And obviously we'll see, you know, I don't know whether Danny Nelson is going to be a top six four on that team going forward. And so we'll see, you know, does more get new line mates? Maybe it's still Nelson. I don't know.

But we'll see what the next four months have in store for us on that front. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's going to be fascinating to watch because, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's. It's been a, it's that, you know, we didn't even talk about Gabe Perrault among them, but, you know, he's actually scored, I think, like, like 15 some points in his last couple of games here, last three games. I think if you look at like the NTDP's historical, like, you know, scoring rates, he's like top five, top three. Yeah, yeah, I think so like basically there's only been one player in the history of the NTDP and their U18 season that averaged two points a game. And that was Jack Hughes.

so and more is or Perot is like right there and Smith had been there for a good chunk of the season as well who I've been told lately that I hate because I said Rosmastelline is a marginally better hockey player than Jack Hughes oh yeah you do hate him you must I yeah I it's the only explanation because I said a defenseman who's might hit 100 points is a really good hockey player that's yeah I know I I hate I hate Jack Hughes I hate all the He was that. That's actually, that's been, that's been the track record of my writing, actually.

But, but no, I think Gabe is a really interesting hockey player. I think the skating definitely worries a lot of people, for sure. And I think, I don't mind his effort, but I think I wouldn't call them like a physical player either or,

you know, a two-way player. So I think you've got to really be in love with the offensive abilities. And I think this is going to be, you know, scoring winger in the NHL, a power play winger in the

NHL and not just like one of those in and out of the lineup oh, you like to have them when you're not that good when you're actually good

you find somebody else kind of think, you know, you've got to hope that this is a legit top six winger will be a top power play guy and I'm not sure that's a consensus opinion

but I think it's an opinion that's growing. Yeah, I mean, I would say he's probably decisively the fourth of the four that we're talking about.

I'm not, or would you? I'm not sure. It's decisive. I think for me, I think him and Leonard are close personally. Yeah, I agree. I agree that they're close. I just think like consensus-wise.

Yeah. Among the league, among the people I talk to, yeah, I would say he's clearly it before. Yeah. And I think that's been the same with your discussions. Yeah. Yep, it has. Yeah. And I think if we were doing a mock draft, we would have him somewhere between 15 to 25, I would say, right now in a mock draft.

Yeah. you know and maybe he made it made out the fourth american where do you where do you think straymwell goes right now man great question i mean i still think that there there is a chance that he can go in that late first round um you know i think yeah i think yeah i mean i think they're still upside there it's kind of funny like he looked terrible in the first half of the year goes to the world juniors looks really promising first weekend back at wisconsin same yeah brutal play well and i think i think part, like the thing about Stramel that makes it tough is it's an environmental thing. Like with really, you watch their games and Cruz Lusish is probably the only other player on that

team. Outside of course in Kulamins, I'm talking more forwards, Cruz Lusius having, you know, they, when they put them together, things started to open up a little bit more for for Stramel, but still like, it's just not a very good hockey club. And it's, it's hard to be a young, a young freshman on a, on a team that's struggling like they are. I just did a live room with our Columbus writer and Porcel. line and we were getting asked about Coolman's and I'm like I don't know what to tell you like it's they never have the puck you know so it's like yeah he hasn't looked promising but nobody's really looked like overly promising on on that team of late like yeah you can highlight a couple guys who

have had nice years but like it's that's that's a tough situation right now in wisconsin really tough it is it is and and you know right now they have some decent recruits on the way but They need a lot more. They always have one or two decent recruits. Yeah, they do. They don't, they, they've lacked the guys who stay three or four years and are really good college players.

Right. Yeah, like the gap for them, for them, it's just about a gap between you, you get your Alex Turcots or Cole Cawfields, your Dylan Holloways, all these different players,

but then your second tier is way further down. Yeah, Keandre Miller, yeah, I mean, and, you know, it's probably not a huge surprise.

These guys go on to the NHL. They start playing with better players. They play better. You know, I mean, it's just, the way it goes. Except for Turcote.

Well, yeah. I mean, there's some mitigating circumstances there. Yeah, yeah. But, no, I think that's all fair. We'll see what the future is

for Wisconsin this summer. Chance of a coaching change, maybe. Yeah, I would think it's on the table. Yep. You know, and we'll see whether that's, you know, and it's, I don't think it's impossible

to turn that franchise around. I don't think it's a foregone conclusion and Strait was going to, you know, be bad again next year. He's not going to score again next year. I think you look at Michigan State this year. and, you know, you make a couple of key personnel changes, a couple of key coaching changes,

and things can change rather quickly for a college program. It seems that way, yeah. What a job that Adam Nightingale's done at Michigan State, which I'm sure just make. Since Max isn't here, we got to talk up Michigan State. We should have done it while he was here to his face, but, oh well. You know, it's very unfortunate. And I think, you know, if presuming Stirback is a top two-round pick, I don't think it's a conclusion. He's a first rounder.

I would get my best more. if it's first, like, the last couple of picks, but probably a second round. Probably a second rounder. You know, when was the last time Michigan State had a top two-round draft pick? I don't know. They did have Dalton Laballier at one point, too, who was a first-round draft pick. He was, but that was a long time ago on the Galaxy very far away. It was.

What was that the old five draft, 0-4 draft? He was a thrashers pick. That's all I remember. I know he was a thrashers pick, but now it's going to stop. If I don't look this up right now while I have you on here. I guessed 05 and I was wrong. It was 08. Yeah, I was going to say, I thought it was a little bit later than that.

But yeah. I'm aging myself. Any other takeaway from the All-American game, Chris? I mean, you know, it's really, it is really a difficult game to stand out in. You know, I think it's a really hard game to, you know, learn a ton as you mentioned before, just because there's, you know, there's not a lot of time. Anybody who is not with the NTP that you actually look like an NHL player in that game. I mean, guys that based on that performance in the game, tough to say.

I mean, you know, you did mention some of the guys that, you know, Emerson, I thought, will look good. He's a guy that I think is going to have, you know, as a second year draft eligible. He's going to have a chance. You know, I think that there are guys like Sammy Harris, who's had a really. strong season. You know, I think he could be a late round guy as a, as a, as a reentry. Same with Cole Canoble. You know, those agree on Canoble. Yeah. I mean, those are guys that I think have an opportunity to go. And that's, that is one reason why I'm at least glad that's, you know,

the USHL is becoming a breeding ground for second year eligible players to be picked by NHL teams. As teams kind of change their, they don't necessarily change their strategy, but they start including more of those guys that are college bound guys that you think, hey, maybe we'll sign that guy later as a college free agent. We want to have a good book on them. It's all about the reserve rights, right? I mean, it's the, it's this four years versus two years that, you know, I think there's a lot of guys, teams who once you get past the good CHL players, they start turning

to USHL high school in Europe. Yeah, yeah. And one other guy did want to point out is Jacob Fowler, you know, goalies, they only play half the game. He gave up one goal, you know, 12, 12 saves on 13 shots. And he'll get dropped that. He's headed to Boston College next year. I mean, Boston College had, how many, like eight or seven, seven or eight recruits in that game.

So Boston College is going to be looking a lot better next year. Yeah, especially if Cutter stays, which I don't think is a foregone, which I don't think is for sure that he stays. But if he does stay, I think they're going to have a really exciting team next year. And B.U should be a pretty good team. Mackinsell-Reedys going in there. If they, that could be a really interesting dynamic next season. Yeah, a lot of a lot of. High level prospects will be concentrated right on Commonwealth Avenue there.

So I'm excited about that. Yeah. I was hoping to see the one USHL guy who wasn't playing that I think is kind of trending in a really good direction was Gavin McCarthy. He was injured, didn't get to play in the game. I was kind of hoping to see him there. I think he has a chance to be the first USHL guy off the board outside the program. I'm not saying he will be. I think Sturback and Robill are ahead of them right now.

but I think he's having a strong year and he has at least put himself into a good discussion. It was unfortunately. It wasn't that game. I think he's past Strathman for me in terms of the best draft eligible, you know, U.S. defensemen in that league. Yeah, I think you're right. I'm close on that one too. And also Gavin McCarthy, correct me if I'm wrong, but he was part of the Shane Wright trade to Windsor.

Yes, he was. His rights are now owned by the Kingston Front Max. And I don't think that he's going. there. So I, I've not 100% as well on board with the idea. He'll be a Kingston Fronet, but I'm sure they'll make a decent recruiting bid and we'll see how they do. But I suspect he will as well, he'll be a college bound player. And I think that's kind of does it for us today here, Chris. I hope we all didn't sound too incompetent or like bumbling idiots without, without Max guiding our conversation. He does have a steady hand, does

any max he he he does he he is the more sane of of the three of us uh given that he doesn't obsessively watch junior hockey 24 seven yeah that does not do what good things to your brain i can i can attest to that and for the first time ever i am going to lead us out of this episode thank you to everybody for listening to this episode of the athletic hockey show prospect series you can follow us on youtube at youtube dot com slash at the athletic Hockey Show. You can also catch more of Chris over at Flow Hockey and his podcast, Talking Hockey Sense. And right now, you can get a one-year subscription to The Athletic for $2 a month when you visit Theathletic.com slash hockey show. We'll talk to you soon.