The Athletic Hockey Show - Corey’s best under-23 NHL player rankings, Carolina Hurricanes get Jesperi Kotkaniemi, a bunch of listener questions, and more

Episode Date: September 10, 2021

First, Max and Corey discuss the upcoming prospect tournaments they’re most looking forward to, the Montreal Canadiens declining to match the Carolina Hurricanes’ Jesperi Kotkaniemi offer sheet, and acquiring Christian Dvorak from the Arizona Coyotes, and some of the young players who could make Olympic rosters this year.Then, the guys dive into Corey’s rankings of the best under-23 NHL players for this upcoming season and discuss Cale Makar’s slotting in at number one, why guys like Rasmus Dahlin and Owen Power made it into the top ten and Miro Heiskanen landed just outside at eleven, the evaluation process, differences in tiers, and more.Plus, to close things out, the guys open up the mailbag and answer a lot of listener questions, including whether the Ottawa Senators’ rebuild is over or not, when the Detroit Red Wings could be Stanley Cup contenders, how much distance is between Adam Fantilli and the upper echelon 2023 NHL Draft eligibles like Connor Bedard and Matvei Michkov, and many more.And, right now you can save 50% on an annual subscription to The Athletic when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey, everybody. Max Boltman here alongside Corey Pranman, back with another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show's prospect series. It should be a really fun show today. Corey's individual U-23 player rankings are now out. We're obviously going to talk about those. Got resolution on the Kokadiyemi saga with Carolina. We got the Olympics and a really great mailbag that I am excited to get to. But first, Corey, how's it going? It's going well. I mean, we're kind of ramping up to the start of hockey season right now.

You know, I've been watching, because they're the kind of only leagues there in regular season, been watching, like, you know, Russia, KHL, VHL, MHL games right now. And it's starting to really get, like, what an idea, what a travel schedule is going to look like for the upcoming season. Still some black clarity on some important things, particularly when it comes to traveling to Canada. But now we have, you know, we have a U-18 World Championship host cities. You know, we're going to, you know, it's going to be not going to be in Munich, but it's going to be in Munich adjacent. So that's exciting for next spring and trying to, you know, get an idea of now we're going to be doing before then. You know, I'm starting to plan some college and some junior trips.

And we're often rolling right now, be quite honest. I mean, a week from certainly by the time this episode is airing, you and I are going to be in Traverse City at the prospect tournament watching a lot of these guys that we're talking about today and over the course of the series in action, which really, it does not seem like we're only a week away. and yet I guess I better kick into gear here. No, no, trust me. Based on my, looking at my Delta, my Marriott app, I can very much tell you we're underway. And I'm actually going to be flying from Traverse City to the Arizona tournament in the middle of that.

So I'm going to try and hit two of those to get a good coverage, especially since Traverse City is only five teams this time, and they're not doing the thing where they have like staggered games and getting a lot of action in. So I'm definitely going to try and go to two tournaments next week. my Marriott balance is suffering right now I was disloyal to the brand so I'll have to I'll have to take that up with the Marriott bosses at some point I guess or the Marriott gods I mean yeah and this is not just a hockey thing all sports writers all scouts across all sports

in case listeners don't know have to stay on Marriott's it's actually like they make you sign a contract when you decide to get into this line of work yeah so I've been I've been disloyal to the entire profession by by booking outside of the of the loyalty brand, but that's okay. You mentioned the Arizona tournament. Is that the most stacked of the prospect tournaments that are going to be taking place kind of across the map this year? I mean, there's more popping up, obviously, but that one, I guess not surprising when you look at some of the teams that are going to be at that tournament, but is that the most stacked prospect lineup that you're going to see this fall? Yeah, no, for sure. It's why I thought it was a priority to get out there.

You know, you have the Kings, Anaheim, San Jose, all with deep farm systems. Arizona is starting to build, a deeper farm system, Colorado, contender, where they have some really intriguing young players. That's really a lot of talent there. And there's some guys who even bring like some older prospects to that thing too. So I'm really excited for that one. Not that I'm not excited for Traverse City, but I'm really excited for that one.

All right. Well, we'll get into some of that a little bit more later on in the show. But I wanted to start off. Let's kind of tie the bow on the Espericotkinemi saga. Last week, I think both of us said we probably would not match. match in Montreal's shoes. That is indeed the conclusion that they come to. And they very quickly kind of resolve the whole situation. They trade for Christian Dvorak out of Arizona. Arizona now with an absolute stockpile of picks. We're definitely going to get to that later. But overall, any kind of

final thoughts on the Kotkanemi saga, what it means for Carolina, what it means for Montreal. Yeah, I kind of watching the coverage of this, not from afar, because I've, you know, I'd end of the player and I've written him about the player. But in terms of like seeing the both the commentary from media and from fans about this. I understand why some would be critical of Cockney, Emmy. He hasn't had a tremendous success in the NHL yet in his three seasons. He's been up with the Canadians.

But I also think he's still a good player. It's hard to kind of make these disconnect sometimes when guys are in the NHL so early. But imagine Cockney Emmy was still in Liga right now. Or you played SHL at the ages of, let's say, 18, 19, 20. After how successful he was as a prospect when he was 17 years old, you know, there would be a lot more excitement, I would imagine, for this player. And we're going to get this when we get to the U23 discussion,

talking about like comparing like more insider to like a guy in the NHL already or something like that in. And you have to kind of, you know, the NHL is a really, really hard league to excel in. But I still think when you look at Cockney and me, You have a 6-2-4. I think he could play center, but Carolina's already said he'll start on the wing. But I think they've envisioned him long-term as the center. We'll see what happens, obviously, with guys like Trochekins and those kind of players next summer.

And I see he's got a great skill, he's got great division, competes well enough. Skating's always been an issue. It's still an issue. That's probably why I don't think he'll ever hit the highest echelons of production. But I still think you have those things in that player. I think he could be a good player. I'm not sure he's going to be a great player, but I think he can be a good player. I think he can be a guy who can help Carolina win hockey games and be maybe not one of their best players,

but a semi-important piece of a good team, you know, because he was just, you know, in his 20-year-old season, let's see where he's when he's 21, 22, 23. Those are, you know, years where even like good prospects are just then starting to make the NHL. So I think, you know, yes, six million he's overpaid, especially on a second contract, no RBers. Nobody, I don't think anyone in the hockey world is going to dispute, they overpaid, but that's what they had to do. Otherwise, Montreal would have matched.

Like, that's how the offer sheet would have to have worked for them to get that player. And, you know, like I said, that's kind of where I stand on that one. And we'll see what happens. I think DeVorak is a good player too. You get them for, you know, a little bit older, maybe a little bit closer to free agency. but I still think he's a good player. So I'm not sure Montreal probably feels like they minimize the damages there.

Some extent, I'm sure I call them winners because I don't think they really like, you know, I don't think they love getting bullied out of their third overall pick. But I think they did a good job minimizing the damages. Well, you covered a lot of this. So I'll just bring it up from the mailbag right now from Andy Visi. We would have gotten into this later in the show. But, you know, he wants to know kind of what Keynes fans can expect, strength and weaknesses, play style and comparables.

I think you covered a lot of it just then, but I think kind of the playstyle and comparables one seems to stick out. And I'm guessing, you know, Carolina here is probably looking at this and saying if things go well, yes, even without kind of blazing speed. They can probably still get a pretty strong two-way center here that can impact the game in a number of ways. Yeah, I think, you know, frankly, he plays the game a lot, you know, along the lines about how a lot of the guys they've acquired through the draft the last couple of years with him, with his skill and his hockey sense. you know, being major assets and him, you know, actually having good size, you know, those are big positives. And, you know, whether he's a, you know, I don't know, you know, I mean, I project him to still be a top six forward. You know, there's a, there's a margin error on that as there always isn't projections. Maybe he's a third line forward.

Maybe he's just like an okay second line guy. Maybe he really pops and becomes like a fringy first line type of guy, too. I think those are all possible. I mean, you could kind of like you'll go through some of the centers in the league off top of my head and think of guys with subpar feet but great size and skill, you know, and good enough competitiveness.

And I always come off the top of my head and like right, right away, unfortunately. But yeah, I still think, I think he's going to help Carolina and given his age, I think he'll help them for a while. All right. The other kind of big news item from the last week that, you know, it wasn't quite out in time

for the last show. That would be the NHL going back to the Olympics for 2022. And obviously when you're talking about the Olympics, you're really mostly talking about more established players. You're talking about veterans, guys who have been kind of deemed to be the very best that their country has to offer. Those are kind of the main player pool that we're talking about. But we could see some guys who, at least right now, certainly are considered in the U-23 range, maybe even some prospects in that range. And I would think kind of the main countries for that would be Finland, Russia. I don't know if any of these really, I mean, Pedersen, I think obviously, Crag, should play a big role.

for Sweden. I think Brady could chuck to Canada for the United States too. Jack Hughes, I mean, USA's pretty deep at center now. Yeah, it depends how his season goes. I think if he has, if he starts a little better than he was overall last season, like he's not just like pretty good, but he's like, you know, if he's really good, like it looks like a legitimate first line center, that may not still be enough to push him over the edge, but if he looks like a monster in the first half, you're like, oh, there he is.

Like, that's the guy we've been waiting for kind of thing. And doing it consistently over, let's say, a couple of months span. They've got to put a long list out by October, I think. But I presume he'll be on a long list. And, you know, if he does it over the first half, then I think he's a guy who definitely can work himself into the mix, but he's going to need to have a strong first half, I think. What's the difference in how you'll watch the Olympics versus how you watch kind of the world champion?

I mean, it's true best on best. Like, that is one big difference between kind of the world championships and the Olympics. Yeah, and at least from a young player perspective, there's not going to be as many options. You know, with the world championships, it's always, you know, outside of a couple of countries, for some countries, it's whoever wants to play for us sometimes. So you do get more young players for some of those nations. Like Russia, though, will usually try to bring their best roster, like as a counterpoint to that. So, yeah, I mean, with last Olympic Games was a little different, as you might recall.

there were some, you know, a lot of, like, you know, European players. Eli Tolvin and from Nashville had a huge tournament at the Olympics. I think Hayskin was there, too, if I recall. Much different vibe for that one, as opposed to this one, which is truly best on best, and it will be interesting measuring stick on just for any prospects that might go or more young players, but I think just for the NHL players, too. I think these tournaments tend to form perceptions for a very long period of time. you know, particularly when you're going to start looking like who fits into Canada as top six

or who's going to be like the best defenseman on Team USA. Will Fox emerge? Will McAvoy become the go-to guy? So on and so forth. And I think those opinions, from my experience, watching the other best on best Olympics, tend to have very long-lasting effects on public perception of those players. Germany, another team, I mean, obviously you're looking at, you know, Leon Dreissel, not a prospect anymore, but more at sighter there.

I mean, I got to think John Jason Peturka and, Lucas Reichel, Tim Stutzler, are getting not just probably long looks here, but could get decent deployment on a German Olympic team. Yeah, for sure. Definitely Stutzel and Sider. Reichland-Pertrka, you know, I think will be on the teams, whether they play high roles or not, still to be a turn. They're still both being teenagers.

And even though Germany is not one of the high-end nations, they're still, you know, good enough depth there where they may not be the most prominent players on those teams. Slovakia will be interesting one just because they have two really high-end guys for this year's draft and Euros Cofsky and Simon Nemech. They didn't play big roles with them when they went to qualifiers. So I don't know whether they will actually be on the team, but we'll see how their first has to go. Real quick, give me your medal predictions on the 2022 Olympics without knowing any of the rosters. I think the safe money is Canada just for the gold medal.

You look at the roster, and it's pretty, they're pretty stacked. I think if Jack Eichol is healthy, USA has a shot at Dwyngold. I think their team has a really has, you know, maybe not the exact kind of forward depth that Canada has, but I'd argue their defenses can go to toe to toe with them for sure. Old tending right there. It may even be better. So, yeah, I think if Eichol is healthy and looks like Jack Eichol, then I think they're in the mix, and then there's probably, you know, between Sweden and Finland for, for, what,

the bronze. I think with Russia, their wingers are amazing, but that center problem is a real problem. Like, it's a real problem with Kuznetsov not being available. We were, like, struggling when we were doing our predictions for the article to think of who the centers would be. They'd lean kind of on my K-HL knowledge to where I thought Shippachov made sense, but Shippichab couldn't make the NHL. Like, you know, it's, I like Shippachov and I watch him in the K, but he's not a good skater, kind of like not overly, like physical, competitive type, just really high-skill IQ. You're looking at Vladicamenev, who couldn't stick in the NHL.

You know, you know, it's, the options are bleak. And I think I'm watching the KHL in the first half now. And we're like wondering, like, okay, who's a guy who might emerge here. I was talking with like Mike Russo a couple days ago. We were wondering whether like Kuznadav could be in the mix, although he doesn't even play wing. He doesn't play center in the KHL, even though he's, I think he'll play center of the World Juniors.

He plays wing in the KAHL. realistically as a teenager not an option for that high level. But I think they are hoping that somebody emerges into K in the first half. The one thing is they do have the best goalie in the world. After honestly the last couple years, I'm not sure that it's even all that close. I think Andre Vasselowski is your number one with a bullet goalie in that tournament. And in any short form tournament, a elite goalie play can put you in position to get on the podium. Yeah, no, I'm not ruling out Russia.

You wouldn't rule out Russia being a medalist. But yeah, I mean, he's going to have the week of his life pretty much, too. Given the kind of offenses they'll be playing, and given that, I think their defense is fine, but it's not amazing. Okay. Now we're going to get into your individual U-23 rankings. We covered kind of the team rankings last week on the show, and probably not surprising that there's a big presence from those teams

at the very top of this list. But number one, Kail McCar from Colorado, what made Kail McCar the number one overall prospect? I know he's in a tier with Andres Vetchnikov here at tier one, but what made Kelmikar the number one overall U23 player in hockey? Yeah, I think you kind of look at the things he can do with the puck on his stick. He kind of has every element you want in a top player. The skating is extremely good.

The skill and the playmaking are all excellent. He's not like what you think of in terms of like the flashiest one-v-one skill type. But I think the unique plays he can make. with the puck as a distributor. When he has the puck, he maintains possession incredibly well. You know, very hard for defenders to get the puck off him due to his skill and his skating. You know, walks the blue line as well as almost anybody in the National Hockey League for those reasons. He can make plays.

He shoots it really well. And, you know, when he was coming up as a junior and then in college, the knock on him as always as kind of a slightly undersized player, the defending was never really a huge selling point in his game and I still don't think it's why you like Caleb McCar I think you compare him to make some of the other premium young defenders I say like Charlie McAvoy that I mentioned before that he doesn't play like McAvoy does but I think the defending is good enough

considering just how elite the offences and how good it's not just Ozone offense it's three zone offense because of how good the skating is that he can be great in transition and great inside the offensive zone that you look at a guy who, as long as he defends just well enough to play the 25 minutes of the game that he needs to, you know, he's a driving force of one of the best teams in the National Hockey League. I thought two versus three in your rankings was a really interesting kind of, I don't want to

call it a battleground, but decision. Svetshnekov versus Elias Patterson. Svichnakov has been a force, but so has Pedersen already. One draft separates the two of them. You land with Svfeshnikov out ahead. why. Yeah, and, you know, those are tough discussions, and I know Vancouver fans, as they always are, very passionate group of people.

I respect their passion. I kind of knew I was going to hear about that one, and, you know, but I think both of them kind of took a little bit of a step back to the season. And neither of them had the years, I think you thought both of them would. So it really comes down to a tool projection, really. You know, with Svetnikov, I see a guy who kind of like McCar, but even maybe more than McCar, but less proven track record in the NHL. He has everything you want in a top forward, other than him being a center.

I mean, you kind of go through the criteria. Does he have great speed? He does. He has amazing puck skills. He's got really good vision. He's got a really good shot. He's competitive. He's physical.

He has good size. There's all the indicators are there to go with the production, to go with him being a, you know, a go-to-player last year on a good team that makes me think, you know, when he's shown him that all this at such a young age that I think the sky's living for this. guy. I know he hasn't had the huge, huge, huge season, but he's like, what, two years removed from being, like, roughly a point of game, too? Like, not, maybe not, it wasn't a point of a game. I remember his 19-year-old year, he was really good. I forgot the exact numbers. But I think all the indicators are there that he's going to have a very long,

and successful NHL career. And I think all of the things you look at with his attributes point to him being an elite NHL player. And I think with Pedersen, you know, there's a little bit more proven track record there. Because I took, like, Svenkov took a, maybe didn't have the greatest year you,

you hope from him, but he still was an excellent, excellent player. The skill level is among the best in the national hockey league, you know, very creative playmaker, elite wrist shot.

Paraly doesn't have all the dimensions that Svecnakov has in terms of the skating particularly. And I don't think, you know, the physicality will match up to Svetch. But he also, you know, even though he's not like,

you know, like this, you know, this bruiser, he's still actually quite, you know, actually have a decent size. And it helps him do some things out there, particularly when it comes to pocket possession. So, yeah, it's like, it's a marginal thing.

Like, you know, that's kind of what that's, it's always funny. I don't read all the comments because I need to maintain sanity. But the comments I do read, it's always kind of funny when I see people like quibbling over, oh, I can't believe he's over him. It's like, oh, well, you know, if it's eight versus nine, then, you know, I could, I buy, if you were like, if we worked on a team together, I always say this when I talk to, like, scout people, you know, we were working together and you said there's no, like, way in hell we're taking this.

over that guy on a draft list. I'm like, okay, well, I only have a one spot apart. Like, like, I thought we, I could compromise on that. Now, if, like, they looked at my list and said, I think he's something like, wait on my list. Like, let's say, uh,

let's say, uh, like somebody said, like, there's no way, like, Capo, Caco is better than Peyton Krebs. I'd be like, okay, that's an interesting argument. Like, I think it's kind of devoid of reality a little bit, but like, you know, but, um, but like, if one said, like, there's no way cider or whatever, um, let me think somebody else,

around there. There's no way that cough guild is or cider are worse than cocoa. I'll be like, yeah, I don't know. I could buy that. Like, you know, like, it's a, but I think I actually had cider over cocoa. And they're all in a tier. Yeah, you had cider, cocoa, coffee, but they're all in one tier. Yeah, but that's kind of like the point. Even so, even though like, Svench and Pedersen were like, ones ahead of each other, I think there's a little bit more projection there for Schetch to, you know, make, you know, really, you know, top, top player in the league. If someone said, well, Pedersen has more skill than him and he has more proven track record, proven track record. Proven track record.

and, you know, and there might be a positional thing there, even though Pedersen doesn't always take faceoffs, you know, I would say, okay, no, that's reasonable. You could take Patterson. Like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't stress over that. Well, so, I mean, this kind of gets into something that was going to be in the mailbag too. I'm going to pull it up right now. Trevor V wants to know about your thought process on how you judge NHL players with a true proven track record versus 18, 19-year-olds who are still kind of two to three years from even being in the NHL. Is it proven sample versus potential? Joel, I think there's really two kind of good example cases for this.

And one of them would be the most recent draft, Dylan Genther. You got them in tier four. You dropped down a little bit. I mean, I think it's about 15 spots on the list, but it's a whole tier. Jason Robertson in Dallas. Now, obviously, not the exact same kind of player, but I think a good case study for a much more advanced player age-wise versus one fresh out of the draft. What do you look at when you're judging Dylan Genther versus Jason Robertson and two kind of very different resumes? Yeah, I mean, you know, you know, you.

every evaluation is a balance of those things that the questioner mentioned, which is you're balancing the toolkits, you're balancing what they've done at various levels, be it junior college, the American League, the National Hockey League, and you look at their ages, and you look at what they've proven, particularly whenever a guy proves things versus men, especially when they prove it at the NHL,

they get a lot of bonus points from me in that regard, and you kind of have just like balance at all. It's all, like all of this is what I would call a balancing test is, and there's no perfect way to do this. The balancing tests I use in my process have changed a lot, and they continue to change every year almost, as you try to make things just a little bit more closer to reality, and you learn what tends to predict and what doesn't. And so there's no like good answer. I can't say, oh, well, if you just have these three things, I'll put you above the proven NHL player. It doesn't work like that. You know, I have like, you know, I look at all the evidence and I say, in my opinion, this projects out to this tier production.

And then there's guys kind of in a similar tier, I start making like tiebreakers. Tie breakers could be positional. Tie breakers could be proven versus pros. There's other things I can use there. But that's kind of how that goes. But because of all these guys are so close. I said, I could buy an argument where someone says, oh, well, Jason Robertson should be better than Genther. Even though I know I was higher on Genth than a lot of people, he went ninth.

I had him two on my list. I still do. And, you know, they said, oh, he proved in the NHL, great skill, amazing score. Score wherever he goes. Did in the NHL at a huge level. I say, yeah, no, I can buy that. But I think Genther is much better skater. Also continues to score really high levels historically.

Has great skill, you know, fierce competitor, projects as a teacher. two-way four in the National Hockey League, who could PK and P-P-P. That's a huge asset, in my opinion. And I'd be willing to bet on that even as a teenager, that if you get that guy, you're talking about a massive piece of a top team. Whereas I think Robertson can be a big part of a top team, but I think he needs to be used in a very selective way because of a skating. I think that makes a lot of time.

I mean, part of what I like about this list is that it does absolutely. those questions because whenever you have a list it's just prospects the obvious follow-up is okay well how would these guys slide up against my favorite rookie or my favorite sophomore player and this just skips that step now with that said yeah i mean that's a question i always get usually on the draft like where's this guy compared to this guy or that guy yeah yeah you know so on so forth now with that said the other case study that i wanted to get to on this topic is the two buffalo defensemen who are both pretty high up obviously rasmus deline and and this year's first overall pick Owen Power, both of whom are in your top 10, Mero Heiskin, and just outside that top

10 at number 11. Now, he's in the same tier as power. He's a tier behind Dahlene. I think this is an interesting case because he, you know, Dahlene's one draft year later than him. Power obviously much, or sorry, one draft year later, power obviously much later than him. Highskin, I would say has, now Dahlene does have the better scoring season in the NHL of all of them, obviously. But Heiskenen's been a really strong player. Where does. Has Heiskenen fall short of both of these two guys? And again, by fall short, it's like the margin. Fractional.

Fractional. Because again, if someone said you have to take him over power, I'll be like, yeah, no, I get it. But by power, I see, you know, if I was having this argument with a scout actually yesterday about this exact, this exact like topic. And I said, you know, just off top of your head max, who would you take, headman or Heiskenen? Uh, headman. By a decent margin or by a large margin? margin or by no margin. Well, I mean, I guess if the game is tomorrow, by a decent margin.

Yeah. So here's the question. Obviously, like, I'm not going to say power's going to be headman. I don't think power is going to be headman. I don't think that's realistic. But let's just say, you know, I see a 6-6 guy who can really skate well for his size at a tremendous offensive hockey sense and has shown a great tracker going to be a great two-way four.

If I told you, I think there's a 50% chance he could be headman. You know, how excited are you about that prospect right now? Yeah, extremely. Yeah, like, you know, and I think that's a realistic assessment for power. Maybe that, I don't think he's 100% going to be that, but when you have those kind of toolkits. And that's because I think he's 50% doesn't mean the other 50% is he sucks. It's 50% might be he falls somewhere short of that. 50% like not, I mean, Pereko, I guess is another big guy.

Maybe he's not as physical as Pareko, but. Yeah, because that's kind of what I'm getting with power is like there's, I think there is because of the elite athletic toolkit he has and because there is offense, not elite offense, but there is offense, you can envision a very realistic outcome where he is one of the very best defensemen in the National Hockey League, where he is a key piece of a championship team like Hedman has been the last two years. And I think with Hayskinin, I'm not saying he can't be that. I think he's in the projected All-Star. He's obviously been an All-Star.

He was part of Dallas's deep championship run two years ago when they just fell short. But yeah, I just think the tool kits for me, the athletic toolkits are, there's definitely a gap. power. Like, Hayeskinnan is an excellent, excellent skater, but so is power, and he's like six inches total over them. So there is a, there's even more of an upside projection there. When I think their hockey senses are kind of similar to be quite honest. I think both of them are extremely smart players. Hayskin and he's got a better shock than power does. And he's, the argument then it comes down to kind of what we just said before is who's proven it. And obviously Hayeskin has proven it. He's been a, you know, a true star player in the league for several

years. Powers played for a week versus men where he was excellent, but that's not any more close in the National Hockey League over an extended period of time. So that's the balance. And you can kind of see that argument from both perspectives and lean one way or the other, depending on what you value.

And the last one would be Dalian. Dalian didn't have a great year last year. Nobody's going to sit here and say, oh, he was great. You know, he was exactly as you hope. He wasn't until that's a couple of weeks when there was the coaching change. But I don't think you can just race the first half because there was a coaching change.

Yeah, I think you look at Dali, you look what he's done his entire life, not just last season. You look at his teenagers. You look at his years when he was coming up as a prospect. You look at a guy who is, whatever, he has six, two, six three can skate well and has, you know, unreal skill. Kind of kind of the same argument I kind of said before with, like, with Gether, and to the power an extent. There is a very realistic scenario where in three, four years from now, you're talking about, you know, expecting 70 points. of him in a given season and not blinking like that's insane.

And him being an important player of a Buffalo team with power that are becoming, you know, a real, you know, interesting threat, maybe not, you know, a cup contender or, you know, but like starting to become like a real playoff team and being the two drivers on those teams. And his offense, you're talking about there's, it's hard for me to imagine Dali not becoming an elite offensive player in the league. Will he become good enough defensively to, be one of the very best defensemen in the league. I think he will.

I can't say for sure because of how last year went. But I think when you have his toolkids just so unique. And that's kind of thing with him in Power versus Hayeskman. I don't think Hayeskinan's toolkit is unique. I think he's just an excellent overall player. I think Power and Dalin's toolkids are really unique. Where they may not be, they may not hit. But if they do, you've got like a really, like, dynamic player that nobody else has.

And that's why everybody always chases the headman. Well, see, what I find myself pulled toward Heiskenen on is, you know, obviously, I think he's an extremely good defender. He's so smooth. He's so smart. But it's also the fact I watched him put up a point per game in the playoffs at the very highest level of any hockey. And it's really hard for me to forget that and having seen that and not say, well, I mean, there's no uncertainty for me with Miro Heiskenen at all. Maybe that's me being risk averse. But I just, there's so much there. I would say maybe no uncertainty. It's probably an overstatement.

Very minimal. Yeah, the uncertainty has minimal. But I think you look at history and the guys who have Dalaiian Powers tool because particularly powers, like, you know, this is, this sentiment is shared by a lot of NHL people. Like when people would be watching power, like, there's no way this guy is in a top pair of defenseman. Like there's like, there's some people who say that. There's no way. Yeah. Whether he's a true like superstars online of that, like, you know, time will tell.

But they're like, you know, when you have his size, his feet, you can defend. You're really smart. Like, there isn't a reality where you're not at the minimum a top pair of offencement. And the maximum, you know, is really like the top national law of the league. Yeah. And that's the really extraordinary outcome. So, I mean, you're right. It's a dance. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, what have they shown already to show you that the potential is there and that it's going to materialize. But it's also, you know, how high can that potential be? And with Dalline and power, like, I can see what you're, saying the ceiling is very, very high. Yeah, and like, you know, part, big part of my job is projection, and I think projecting is a, you can't, like, prove it.

That's where it becomes difficult to explain to readers sometimes. It's like, I'm projecting this and I try to explain the best of my ability why, but it's like, it's almost like, trust me, this could happen, and as opposed to what we've already seen. Like, we have this argument when it comes to like Kaka or Jack Hughes, or something like that, or along those lines where it's like, I think Kaka was one of the more divisive ones because he hasn't been that good in his two years.

And I would kind of make the argument like, you cover the Red Wings. Sider, obviously, was amazing in the S&L last year. Imagine if Kaka was in the S&L last year or he was in Liga. Do you remember Kako in that third period of that Traverse City game in an overtime where he was just so far away the best player on the ice in that game? Well, remember him in a 17? We're talking about Sider when he was 19. Remember when Kako was 17?

He was like, you know, nearly a point of game guy in Liga playing huge minutes. went to the world championships. Really good in the world championships. It was good at, you know, won gold at the world juniors. Like, he was one of the best players of the world championships, like, overall. Yeah. You know, I think that's wise to be underestimate how big the jump could be from the NHL. And, like, not to, like, make your readers, like, more angry.

But, like, there's a scenario where cider isn't, like, amazing in the NHL in his first season. Yeah. Just because, like, the NHL is a really hard jump. And I think he will be good because he is an excellent, excellent prospect. But that kind of thing with Kako is, like, you have to definitely look at what happened the last two years and you have to hold it against him to an extent because he wasn't good but he was a teenager in the NHL for both of those years and not until he at least at the minimum gets like 20-21 where you're going to start to get like really worried I think if he

doesn't like pop to at least a reasonable extent but I think there's just too much skill there and I think there's like I I'm willing to not you know crush a guy over his teenage years in the national hockey league if I've seen it in the past I know there's a lot of excellent attributes in this game. Absolutely. And I mean, we'll veer off way too far if we go too far down this road. But, you know, it is a very interesting perception study of how guys are viewed that spend a little longer and don't get to the NHL but are able to really tear up the, I mean, Johnson Berger and just had a really excellent age 20 season in the SHL, one of the best age 20 seasons in the SHL in a long time. And yet a lot of the best guys to come out of Sweden aren't playing their age 20 season in the SHL. They're already in the NHL, right? And so

it's it's a big perception difference for how. to understand production and kind of dominance, even just visually in those leagues, when you know the NHL is such a big jump and so many of the guys are getting there quick who are these real Elias Pedersen type game breakers. Yeah, no. It's kind of the balance that is why evaluating the toolkits are so important. You have to understand what translates and what doesn't, and you have to balance it against what you've seen both in a given season and in past seasons.

You can't erase the past when you're evaluating players, especially when young players, because because development could be so uncertain at times. All right, I'm going to move us now into the mailbag. I thought it was a really good sample of mailbag questions this week. So kudos to all of you guys for coming up with some really good thoughtful ones. And I want to start with Nick D who says, Do you believe that the Ottawa rebuild is over? They've recently said this, and I feel they still have some questions on D and at net.

No doubt their forward group is looking promising. Obviously, this comes on the heels of Pierre Dorian getting a contract extension. They seem to feel like they're ready to shift gears. do you agree? I think it depends what you mean by shifting gears. I think there is a realistic projection of them for the next season or two where they're not bottom feeders,

where they start to turn the corner a little bit. And you start seeing some progression from some of young players that they elevate into higher tiers of the league, maybe a guy like Brady kind of advances to being among the very, very best, like winger's in the league or it gets closer to that. A lot of their other young players take some steps.

I think that's all very possible. And you start seeing some more optimism of that organization. If you're asking me, do I think they're a playoff team next year? I would say no. Are they a playoff team in two years? Maybe. Maybe not. I think they're going to, you know,

I think Ottawa still has some of the same issues they've always had, which is they're going to be in tough to get premium free agents. and they're going to need those prospects and young NHL players to really hit and do so in large numbers. The rebuild's gone very well. I think the Carlson trade's gone about as well. Anybody could have realistically hoped and probably outside of the realm, you know, outside of any kind of realistic expectations, to be quite honest. But things are going very well.

I've rated their pipeline really high, and I think a lot of those guys were close to either playing the NHL or already. in the NHL. So I think, I'm not, I think as an Ottawa fan, it's okay to be optimistic, but I also think I think in terms of what's actually going to happen here, at least what I think is, you know, I don't think they're in the playoffs this year. And I think you're hoping within the next couple of years you get to the playoffs, whether that's two or three, maybe even four, we'll see what happens there. But I think things are getting better, which I think is what you want, even if it may not

be everything you want. And you kind of, you know, we got a lot of questions about Ottawa, we got questions about Detroit, we got questions about Arizona, and all of those, you know, I think the theme here, and someone like Buffalo fans who maybe was saying can feel this reality in is that rebuilds are hard and they take a lot of time. And you need a lot of things to go right. You need those top guys to hit. You need some of the second or third round guys to become really important NHL players. and you know you're going at the odds in a lot of those cases and you just that's why you know when you look at the approaches that both all of Ottawa, Detroit and Arizona have taken is they understand management understands this that not every draft pick is going to work not every first round pick is going to work and you need to have a lot of those options I think I remember something that Eisenman said after they trade up for COSA that I thought rang true from people I talked to in the league and also rang true to me just more. watching prospects. He said he hated tradeout for COSA, not because he didn't love COSA, but because he hated

giving up picks because he knows any one of those. Could be the lottery ticket that gets you an impact guy. Could be your brain in point or something like that. And I think all these organizations realize that's why you get so many of these picks, not just to have the deepest farm systems and get the highest pipeline rankings from myself. It's because you need to keep doing that because the odds are so longer than any one of those picks becoming truly impactful players as I like the premium premium picks that you need to keep doing it over and over again.

So I like the direction all those organizations are taking, be in Ottawa, Detroit, Arizona, different timelines. Arizona is kind of at the inception of the rebuild. You're talking about, you know, three, five, seven, eight years probably of pain ahead to, you know, they have some pieces there, but they seem to be trading away all the pieces. So, you know, we'll see where they are in a year or two from now, whether a guy like chikrin's days or goes, for example. You know, does Keller stay?

I think those are open questions right now after they have traded to O'Roc. But, you know, for organizations like Detroit or Ottawa, you know, there's a there's a path to being in the playoffs in five years. But are there, is there a path to being in the playoffs next year or even in two years? A lot would need to go right. You look at like the organizations that have rebuilt quickly and like things go right for them in absolute, you know, hilarious. amounts. You go really right. You win two lotteries, like the Rangers,

and move up that fast. I think the Rangers could be in the playoffs this year. I had a really short rebuild. But, like, that's a big break. And the Rangers get, like, Adam Fox. Yes. For free, basically. Yeah.

Yeah. But you know what I'm saying? You know, there's a lot of things. You know, they get Panera and walks in because they're a premium market. You know, we have vision that Detroit would be able to do that. But when they're ready to win. But, yeah, a lot of things need to be. go right. Like, you even look at Tampa. Like, I think Tampa was built, you know, brilliantly,

you know, so many things went right there, but not everything went right there, you know, you look at those. It missed on a lot of first-round picks there. Brett Connolly, Tony DeAngelo, these guys are NHL players, but they're not. Slater Cuckoo. In the top 10, Drew Annan, third overall, like, which they found a way to turn to Cirgachev, but it was, it's not easy to draft, you know, mistake. And every manager, every director of scouting, knows they're not like inventable they know that they're going to have their screw-ups and they hope that they get a long enough sample size to hope that evens out here was my thing on the rebuild is over comment is that like I don't want to give up the game too much here I love what ottawa has

done I actually think it is plausible that they have the vast majority of the pieces that are going to be their core on the next playoff team already in the system and so in the sense of like the mindset of rebuilding that's not their mindset anymore they got their top five guys. They got students left. They got Brady and Sanderson. But, you know, just kind of I said, you know, if one of those three don't hit. Yeah. And also, like, just don't say, just don't say. This is

the trick. Just don't say it. When the, when you're a playoff team, no one's going to ask you whether the rebuild is still going. And when you're not a playoff team and you've said that you're not rebuilding, now the really intense scrutiny comes. So I think it was a bit of an unforced error to say this because I don't think they're making the playoffs this year. And now what do you tell people when you don't make the playoffs and you've said that you're not rebuilding, whereas everyone would have assumed you were still rebuilding otherwise?

Like, I think that was an unforced error. Yeah, it's fine, though. I think it's fine. Yeah, I think everyone won't forget about that. I think it's just, I understand as an excitement of signing your GM to an extension. And I get that. And I think they should be optimistic about the direction their organization is taking and their young players.

But, yeah. I really like where they're, it has nothing to do with what they've done. I think they've exceeded what I maybe draft per draft would have expected them getting out of it. Like I'm one of the big Jake Sanderson believers out there. I think I got a mailbag question for Red Wings mailbag a few weeks ago that asked me, you know, what prospect if I could, I would steal for the Red Wings if I was the Red Wings GM. I took quitting byfield, but I really considered Jake Sanderson because I just think that's such a important piece and style of play that he has.

Big believer. I love where out was that. I just wouldn't have said it's over. Yeah, I mean, he could be, he could, he plays the game a lot like how McDonald's plays. Exactly. And McDonough was a huge component of the last Tuesday Olympic champions. So, you know, it's a perfectly fair thing to say.

And we'll see where Ottawa goes in a couple years. See what Detroit goes in a couple of years. I think Arizona and Buffalo have a longer path just because of where they are currently with their roster. But I think that's just kind of the common thing. I'm just kind of like trying to just say is like this, that just rebuilds are painful. And that's why I don't think you ever want to intentionally rebuild

unless it's like the absolute last option. because I had one executive telling it to me perfectly. I'll kind of sum it up with this. It's really easy to get bad. It's much harder to get good. Yep. That's a great way to put it. You mentioned Arizona.

This is not in the mailbag, and I don't want to take too much time steering off into it. But just looking at the pick collection that they now have for the next few years is hilarious. I mean, in next year's draft, eight picks in the first two rounds. What is the precedent for this? how should Arizona fans kind of be looking at the opportunity here, especially given, you know, the Colorado pick we expect to be very late. The Montreal pick, we don't know where that's going to. That could very well be in the teens.

Right. And I think there was actually, there was a caveat, I think, in that, that they get the best of the Carolina or Montreal first round pick. I thought it was the worst of the two. I think it's the best, unless it's a top 10, but both top 10, then they get the worst. Oh, you're right. I think that was a stipulation. So they'll have a lot of capital, and it doesn't mean, you know, I deal with this every year with our writers.

That, like, you know, I presume you're always going to make the picks until they actually trade them. So I would presume they're actually going to use every single one of those draft picks in the 22 draft. But they are assets, and now that you have all these assets, they could be used in creative ways. They could be used to acquire younger players. They could be used to acquire higher or low or more picks, depending on your particular strategy in a given draft. they could be used to acquire maybe more high picks and the following draft if you're looking at really a long-term horizon

and you don't want to bunch of your reserve list with a bunch of guys in the same age group those are all reasonable approaches to take but they have assets and it's not only about the assets like yes they're going to have a lot of picks in this draft it just is and it's going to be fun to watch for Herritory Coyotes fans

but now it's about a direction and the direction is we didn't like our core we need a new core and that's the direction they're taking I think some of their past first round picks, Victor Stram Barrett Hayden can definitely be part of that. They have some other decent young players in the organization, but they definitely took a direction that, you know, with Dylan Genther and whoever they're going to pick

the first, you know, the first round this year, I think we all kind of expect them to be toward the bottom of the standings this year. You know, they're clearly taking a direction that we need more premium young players. And I'll be curious to see how that rebuild goes and, you know, and in whether, you know, I think everybody there is ready for the pain that's about to come. Because it's going to be a lot of pain. It's just a reality of how it rebuilt to go. This is kind of a natural follow-up from D-Mart.

He says, Red Wings only have four prospects in your top 100 under 23, none in the top 10. With that in mind, when do you see them as a playoff team or a top contender? Yeah, I think we just kind of answered that. It's like, so I'm not going to go too much into what we just said over and over again. I think, kind of as you know, you cover their wings. They're missing the big guys. they're missing the stars and maybe cider is one maybe Raymond is one maybe evansson maybe a lot of maybes I think cider is most likely just given what he's shown so far as a prospect

but it's still a maybe because he hasn't done it yet you know I think and you could be as bad as you want it's only got a 25% chance Jeff Draft Shane Wright or Connor Bedard or or maybe if you love Mitch Cough that much maybe a little bit of bit better chance in that draft, but still not great odds. Then you wait for him, right? For three years, yeah. That's the timeline, yeah. Yeah. We don't need stars to be a bubble playoff team.

You need good players, but you don't need like superstars. I can see somewhere in the next four or five years. I think that's probably, I think you'll start to inch them up. And I kind of said, I think given Eisenman as a GM and given it's a Detroit, I think they will be able to attract some free agents that when they are ready to turn the corner, whether it's in college or Europe or national hockey league free agents, I think they'll be able to supplement the young core there with enough to may not be a top team, but at least be a bubble playoff team,

whether it's getting three, somewhere for the next three, five years, I would say. Yeah, my gut was going to be three, but I'd add a caveat, which is that while the mindset in Ottawa now may be shifting to we're not kind of trading away guys anymore, like I'm not 100% sure that'll be the case in Detroit. And if you trade one of Tyler Bertuzi or Jacob Vrons, guys like that, every one of those guys you subtract, like, it's really hard to find another top six forward to get you there to the playoffs. And so if they are done subtracting, which I am not convinced is the case, then I think it could be as early as three. But I'm not convinced that they're done

subtracting. And some of those guys have caught. I mean, actually all of those guys have contracts that are done within the next three years. And that leaves even more mystery, even beyond how the prospects develop. My time watching teams rebuild is always bet against the reason. build. Columbus has been rebuilding as long as I've been writing about hockey. It's just, it's just tough. And it's just building up a good team takes a long time. And their window was so short. Even when, like they had, they had a couple years where I think you could say that the revoke was not in effect, but it was really short. It was two, three years. That's kind of why it meant that I thought they've been rebuilding for as long as I can remember. Yes, I know they made the playoffs a couple

of times, but as a, as like, you know, as a low seed and they weren't rebuilding when they had Panarin and Babrovsky on those teams and even the, you know, the year, you know, the year, You know. They went all in and traded for Duchenne and all that. Yeah. And, you know, but just like, I'm not trying to pick on Columbus. I'm just trying to point out. No, I hear you.

Like, especially for like a team like Ottawa or Arizona where you can attract the premium free agents, it's just so tough. And, you know, so when you, when those good years come, really enjoy it. All right. Ethan H., how difficult is it when scouting to balance the known information about a player's on-ice capabilities with the far more unknown information about off-ice habits, character. Tons of highly talented players bust because of off-ice problems not foreseen by their professional organizations. So as a scout, what ways do you kind of bridge that gap between what's on tape and what is not? I joke with some people who are scouts sometimes that they are, that they're talent evaluated, but they're also like psychologists and they're like,

they do like the job of an HR person sometimes because they got to interview kids and then they got like break down whether they're like they have the mentality for it or not. And it's a, it's an Interesting. It's something that I don't have great answers to and you try the best. Like he hear things all the time. Like, oh, this guy's a good kid or he doesn't have, like, you know, they don't like something about the kid for X and Y reason or something along those lines. You always hear. And I don't know what's true and what's not true. For me, I always look for like the glaring red flags. Like the things like, oh, like, oh, I didn't like how he treated this coach once. Like, no, that's not what I look for. Like, I'm looking for. Something like slaps you in the face. Not like Loken My U level, because that one's like really obvious. But like, um, but. like guy gets suspended or, you know, he has like some real off ice issue that's become like really glaring and you can't avoid.

Stuff like that where you can tell it's transcending just like the rumor mongering aspect of the off ice stuff and it's something that's really substantive and it should be a critical part of your evaluation. It's all important. Every team does character in background. Every team does multiple interviews usually of the guys they want to. draft. You know, in person interviews back in the day now, so more by Zoom.

You know, you'll have area guys do it. They'll have the directors interview the guys. All kinds of ways, you know, they'll talk to the Billet families. They'll talk to the coaches. They do all kinds of, they'll talk to their teammates. They'll do all kinds of homework to try and figure out who these guys are. It doesn't mean they understand everything about that aspect, just like you make errors in evaluating the talent level of players.

But we all try to make our best effort. at least of getting a bare minimum understanding, particularly of the top guys. Like, particularly in my job, you're going to cover, like, thousands of guys. You can't know the character of every single guy. But the top guys, you try to at least get a good idea about. All right. Will A. He wants to talk about the 2023 draft.

He wants to know, it seems to be stacked with Michkov and Bedard, but how far behind is Adam Fin Tilly behind them? It's far away, but does he project to be an impact NHL player at this point? Yeah, kind of what you said. It's far away. You're two years away. And, you know, I love all three of those players. I think if you asked me to do a 2023 ranking, they're the top three guys.

I also would tell you, I don't know who the other guys are yet, or at least confidently enough to tell you that they're for sure going to be the top three guys come two years from now. You know, a lot changes over the course of two years. And I think they seem pretty, you know, locked up there at the top of the draft and maybe one of them slips to four. Maybe there's some guy we don't really know a whole lot about that really rises in that time period.

They're different players. Like I think Mitch Kov and Bedard are the elite skill IQ scoring types where they both have fantastic hands, ridiculously good hockey stands, both have great shots, both are kind of undersized. They're both good, not great skaters, but they're competitive. Whereas Fantilia is more like the modern, like, you know,

you know, premium athlete type. really good skater with the skill and the shot but doesn't have like the dimensional like playmaking ability or offensive creativity that those two guys have. So he's different in that sense. I would prefer Mitch Carter, Mitch Kov and Badar right now just off top of my head, but a lot changes in two years. And, you know, there's a reality where two years should have, until he just won the Hobie Baker and in his draft year at Michigan, and he's the most unreal property you ever seen, and he's number one overall,

and we're not even thinking twice about it, but maybe not. We'll see what happens over the next two years. All three of those guys have enough flaws to where I can really pick them apart and think of their worst-case scenarios, even though they all have massive strengths and are all very special prospects. Charger J, if you're Chris Jury, are you trading for Jack Eichol or letting the kids develop

And in my opinion, continue the path of rebuilding the correct way. That's Charger Jay saying that, not me. We haven't heard Jack Eichael's name in a while here. I guess this is more from the Rangers perspective. Yeah. I'm sure Jack Eichael would be hearing Jack Eichael's name more often than I would be here. I was talking about someone the other day. Do you think there's a possibility to stay in Buffalo?

Is it possible that Buffalo is going to really hold and not give for less than their price? yes, it's really, really hard for me to imagine another game in Buffalo, but I could be wrong. I mean, like, I just, how does the saga get resolved with his neck without a trade? Is my question. Can they not just all go like kumbaya and just find a way to like work to work out their differences kind of thing? Like, you know, we have all kinds of mediations for people with disputes. Can there not be like a mediation between like a player and a manager and an ownership group to just be like, you know, find a middle ground? Yes, I'm not like that.

Yes, it could happen. But I just, I don't see how the neck thing get resolved. for him to play another game. And that's kind of why he probably has been traded yet. It's a combination of he didn't play well last year. Yeah. He has this really, you know, big medical question, and they want a ton in return, you know. And, you know, I think if he's healthy, which is a huge if, you know, a big, glaring

if, if he's healthy and he's the Jack Eichel of old, like, oh, you get whatever prospects you have, you move those guys. Like this is, like this guy is a game breaker. love Jack Michael. He has every attribute you want in the top NHL centerman. Like he's a, he would be a real, he takes the Rangers from where they are right now, he's like a bubbleish playoff team to, you know, being a really, you know, important, you know, team in the league. Like, you know, not, you know, in terms of like one of the real, maybe not the top top team, but like on the rise, top 10, top eight, whatever it is. Like he's, he could be a difference maker, particularly when they're,

obviously as they well know, they're glaring need a center. So it's, not glaring, but like, they, you know, somebody to back up some vintage at for sure, you know. So, yeah, like, I would, you know, whether it's Brayn Schneider, you know, Niels Lunkfus, Zach Jones, you know, Brennan, Offman, whoever, like, you know, those guys can go for Jack Eichel, and I love all those guys. I think they're all great prospects. But Jack, I, you know, you look at teams that win championships, they don't have Zach Jones and Brayn Schneiders. the key of them is having Jack Geichel. So, you know, or something similar.

So even though he has paid a lot of money for a long period of time, and the medical thing is a big question. It's why, again, a bunch of hypotheticals. That's why, and I don't envy the managers trying to figure this out, both from the trading partners and actual Buffalo, because this seems rather complicated, and I don't really know how it gets resolved. It would be fascinating if to see Jack Geichel playing in Buffalo this season at some point.

I mean, I don't know what it would take for it to get to that point. Maybe I'm naive. I just feel like, unless he really doesn't want playing buffalo because they've lost so much, and they look like they're going to lose a lot more because they just traded Ryan and Rist-Leyn. So I think it's reasonable that you've gone out in that regard. You know, I just, it seems, I think if it's just like a dispute over like the health stuff and lack of trust, I feel like you can resolve that as like human beings. But if it's the direction of the team where, you know, realistically, they're going to be really bad next year

and it would be bad for several years, then I understand why he'd want out, but this medical thing looks like, it seems like a big part of why this is being held up. I really pushed back on people. The night of the Pierre-Luc Dubois, the infamous Pierre-Luc Dubois shift in Columbus last season, as everyone was riding him out of town,

I really pushed back and was like, oh, I don't think this is the end in Columbus. And, of course, like 24 hours later, he was traded. So I'm going to air on the side of pessimism from now on in these matters. No, I think that's fair. Yeah, the Dubois stuff, I don't know, I think that was part of the coaching staff. It was. Yeah.

Yeah. All right. J.P. Claremont, since the whole Kockenemi drama, I was curious about something. Do you see good return on investment with teams that drafted centers who were considered a reach for their ranks? Let's say, according to your evaluation. So he's saying players like Kott Kenyemi, Barrett Hayton, Tide Delandria come to mind. I personally would throw in like a Pierre-Luc Dubois in there on the. the more positive side of the trade here. But overall, I mean, I think this is a really good question.

We see people, quote unquote, reach down kind of the overall rankings to get a center in drafts. And I think people would argue maybe Mason McTavish was that in this most recent draft for Anaheim. And I think sometimes we're able to kind of justify it with, well, look, he's a center. Centers are hard to find. This is a great question. What's the ROI on those decisions, three, four, five years out? Yeah. And I think that's a great debate that happens in NHL foreign offices every season because, you know, I'll have these discussions because I'll make a player list. I'll say like, oh, I think this guy projects at this production level in the NHL. And I'll get, you know, whether it's an AGM or a GM, come back at me and it's like, listen, Corey, I can get a winger for like anything nowadays.

Like, if I want a winger, I can go trade a first round pick. I get a premium winger. He'll like, he's on my team tomorrow. If I want a premium center, like, they're just not out there unless you want to like give up like massive amounts of young capital to get that kind of guy. So I understand where that argument comes from. that getting the guys who play down the middle for organizations just seems like an insurmountable thing to do at times. You can't even look at like, you know, you look at this draft.

Like the draft that has happened, there was a, you know, Baneers and McTavish went right away. And I don't even think anybody in the NHL is telling you that Baneers and McTavish are going to be like superstar centers, something like that. They think they can be really good top two-wind centers, and thus they went really high. You look at this upcoming draft.

We think Shane writes that number one pick. He's a center. That one's taken care of after that. it becomes less dice. It becomes less clear. I could talk to people who don't, you know, I think Lambert and Savoy have played centers at times in their lives, and Savoy more recently.

But I talked to scouts who are not convinced either of them will be in HL centers. We saw Lambert playing on the wing at the junior summer showcase for Finland. Yeah, I think at the U18 World's he was on a wing too. You know, I think you can look at, you know, Savoy, because of his skating, some scouts would be concerned about him being a center. you look at Logan Cooley and you know he might be an NHL center but because of his size maybe he gets pushed to the wing maybe maybe not so it you're already looking at the quote unquote top options and picking them apart a little bit now and be like oh there's not a lot of centers in this one either so you know that's where it gets really tough at times with

trying to find that that premium center at the top of the draft and so i don't i kind of understand when it happens that way um it's hard for me to say the exact r oi over a very long period of times i you know there were times i really believe in cockney jane and hayton as as players as high picks not you know the exact you know well it's early too it's still early yeah yeah exactly you know and you know we'll see what happens with their with their careers obviously um but My list don't always reflect that. Usually I do tiebreakers. Between the center and the winger, I take the center.

But I know an angel organizations should take a much more drastic approach. It's not a tiebreaker. It's like a clear differentiator. Like if you're a center and you're even like somewhat close to the winger, it's the center and it's not even a discussion for some, for some NHL people. Like that's just the way they view the value spectrum is that wingers are easily replaceable. And the trade market, they would argue, reflects that. All right.

next one is from Matt and he says, why do you hate Evan Bouchard? I guess I'll ask you, do you hate Evan Bouchard? I don't hate Evan Bouchard. He seems like a nice guy. I don't know. He's a good hockey player. I guess, you know, going back to...

Why are you down on him as a prospect? I think it's kind of a good question. I understand what you're going to get there. And I don't think I'm down on him. I think I have him like as only... I think he's a very good prospect. I think he's guy who could be a potential second pair of defense in the national hockey league.

I understand where this is coming from. because, like, I think there is an expectation that, you know, what was he, like, the 11th overall pick, 10th overall pick, 12th overall pick, something around there, a couple into the 2018 draft. And he obviously was an excellent junior player, you know, had huge statistical seasons with London. I was never, I think, right where I thought the hype was with him. I was always, like, a little bit below, not dramatically below. I think since he turned pro, he's kind of been up and down through his years in Bakersfield, with his one year in Bakersfield. then I watched his first half there in Sweden

and I watched his limited ice time in the NHL last season and I think his puck moving is excellent. I think his shot is very good. I think the concern on Bouchard is with his so-so skating, how good is he actually going to be if the offense isn't like truly standout level? And given that he hasn't really taken a big Lvipiet versus men, I know all those fans will argue he didn't get an opportunity last season.

I tend to be skeptical of those arguments usually. I tend to think most coaches will play players if they're going to help their team. But that's just, you know, I could be wrong about that in individual cases. But I do like Ed Mushar, but I think this season's a huge one. He's kind of got to prove that he can, you know, be, you know, that the offense is really going to stand out in a significant way in the National Hockey League. And if he does that, then I can elevate his stock. Okay, listen, he's not getting run over defensively.

the skating is not showing to be that big an issue at the NHL level. He's moving the puck really well. He's helping their power play. There are things he can do, I think, to overcome my current evaluation of him and maybe elevate more into a clear top forward. I may even a fringe top pair type of guy because of the offense and particularly the offensive hockey sense, I think is really excellent. But given how the last I would say two years have gone,

I'm a little bit below that level for him right now, even though I still think he'll be a good pro. tough situation for him to break into too with a team that's really trying to make the playoffs they have a kind of clear cut power play quarterback with darnel nurse like it has been a tougher situation but like nurse is like not like any elite offensive i know he could go numbers last year but like i feel like if you're like a 21 year old which he was last year like i don't think that i don't think it's unfair to say like if you're like truly like an elite player which i don't think he is and i don't think realistically any scout i talk to will say he's an elite prospect right now you know i think it's fair to say you should be playing i don't think think even when I find a time he's a lead prospect, probably putting words in their mouth. I think if you're just even like, you know, a really true top prospect, if you're like 21 on a, you know, good, not

great team with the blue line that I don't think was like amazing. It's not like this was like, you know, Tampa Bay's blue line or something like that. You know, that it's fair to say that he probably should have found a way to push his way into more regular minutes. All right. Namdanan says Genther or Miroshenko.

That's a great question. I was just watching Miroshenko. today he just played his first game at the season he scored and he had a couple of preseason games that I was going through it. I was actually thinking about that while I was watching that's why I thought I wanted to put that that question in even though it was kind of like

very narrow question. I actually was just thinking about that today and talking to somebody else about that today. I look at these guys with roughly similar frames. They're both good not great skaters they're both very skilled, but it's not elite skill. They both have great compete levels. They both have big shots

both right shot right wings. I see a lot of similarities between them, actually. And, you know, I have Berza Chankov's my number two prospect in the draft. Currently, I won't put out a new list probably for another month, month and a half. We'll see where he is by then. But I had again there number two as well. And I just see those two playing games that translates the pros really well. And I see quite a lot of similarities other than the nationalities, to be quite honest.

I think if Merafico Dutza versus men be a little bit more persuasive argument. And then the last one for today from Tim Wills, your thoughts on Phil Tomasino's HAL season and how he projects to the NHL? I think Tomasino's season was excellent. I mean, it's hard to argue against that. He just put up huge numbers for a teenager. And the argument against Thomasino was never the talent. He always had great skating, great skill, individual, and playmaking ability.

You could score. The question on him as a junior was, can he be consistent? enough with his effort. Will the way he plays where he could be a little soft physically sometimes translate versus men? And he showed it this year. He's like, hey, I play versus men. I'm a teenager. I'm making a difference here. You know, his world juniors, I thought the inconsistency should have a little bit more there, that you kind of expected. But, you know, it's a balance of all the information, as we just kind of talked about earlier in the episode. So, you know, if he plays again versus pro next season and does really well, whether it's in the American League

or the National League, I think you'll be able to say, hey, listen, the, the, the reasons why he went to the 20s. We're worried about his inconsistencies, his physicality. You know, that was all nonsense. Like, this guy's a stud. And maybe we get there in a year. Maybe we don't. All right, that is going to do it for us.

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