The Athletic Hockey Show - Corey’s NHL Mock Draft 2.0, which NHL Draft prospects have the most upside?, NHL Draft Combine final thoughts, and more

Episode Date: June 10, 2022

First, Max and Corey give their final thoughts on their time at the NHL Draft Combine last week, Corey comments on Max’s recent article where he asked NHL Draft prospects what they think of Corey’s scouting reports, and the guys talk about Arpon Basu’s and Marc Antoine Godin’s Montreal Canadiens coverage at the Draft Combine.Then, the guys break down Corey’s NHL Mock Draft 2.0 and discuss Cutter Gauthier breaking into the top-5, Kevin Korchinski and Reid Schaefer turning heads for the Seattle Thunderbirds in the WHL playoffs, Matthew Savoie and Conor Geekie falling out of the top-10, and more.Plus, Corey’s first shot at ranking the top-31 draft eligibles on pure upside featuring Brad Lambert significantly lower than his normal ranking, Logan Cooley at No. 1, and Shane Wright at No. 4.And, right now, you can get a 6 month subscription to The Athletic for just $1 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey everybody, Max Boltman here alongside Corey Pranman for another episode of the Fletic Hockey Show's Prospect Series. We are both back in our respective homes now after a week at the Combine. A good week, I think, Corey, right? That was a productive week. Yeah, no, I enjoyed it. It was the first real NHL-wide event we've had in several years where the entire league was in one place. You had a couple of those, you know, over the last year or so, that are, you know, big tournaments where it just so happens, a lot of people show up, but this was

the first time, all the general managers, all the scouting directors, all the staffers, analytics people, et cetera, were all in one spot at the same time. And, you know, that was just, you know, a great experience and happy to be able to do something like that again. It was great. And I think, you know, the only, the only hiccup we really had was on that audio on the, on the Slovkovsky interview from last week, which I know a few of you reached out to, a few of your listeners reached out to mention. We were aware of it. It is my fault.

I will take the fall on that one. But I thought it was good. And I thought, you know, going into the last day, it was almost really at that point, academic. I mean, we had done most of the work we were going to do. But a couple of little developments on that last day, mostly at the, obviously you can put varying degrees of stock into the various combine apparatuses. But maybe the one that is the most relevant is actually the way station at the very beginning, the way in measure station. Yolkham Kemmel lost about an inch.

Yeah, Central previously had him at 5-10, 3-quarters. He came in at around, I think, 5-9 and 3-quartered. He gave in 5-9 and a half, which got people buzzing a little bit. Now, it's relevant information. I would say as well that just a couple of things about that. One, just my personal opinion, and it may not mean much to some people if you if you trust the measurement it's like you know what i've personally watched camille i do not he does not look five nine and a half to me when i've

seen him live several times he doesn't look large but he doesn't look that small and i'm sure someone say well they they put a take measure next to his head it's like yeah well you know i've seen this happen before where uh they measure a guy and i i remember one prominent example is uh philip hallander second round pick to penguins in, I think, 2017. And Central's measurement leading into the combine, I think, was 6'2. And then at the combine, I think he was measured at 510 or 5'11, which is obviously, it doesn't, that obviously doesn't make sense. So I think there can be a little bit of plus or minus human error on both sides of those

measurements. So maybe split the difference. So that would be the first thing that would come to mind about that. I said, I don't think he actually looks that small. That said, it's extra information. And I definitely know talking to scouts around the NHL, it got them buzzing a little bit for a guy that was at least coming into the combine, a projected top 10 pick. He also, like, I guess regardless of what the actual number is, he doesn't really play small either. I know you're saying he doesn't look at, but he also doesn't play.

Like, he plays with some edge to him, too. Yeah, he plays hard. He wins battles. He plays versus men and show no issues, winning battles. and creating offense. What it's worth, when the Finland, U-18 and U-20 team has measured him, he came out of 6'0, so take all that information how you will. Bad data slouch, basically, is what you said.

There's a lot of jokes made about stuffing your shoes and stuff like that and things people do, but like I said, I just maybe take an average of all these various data points. Well, while all of that was going on, I know you have by now read this, I was asking, I was on the other side from where you were, you were over with all the NHL personnel people and watching all this stuff go down. I was over on the other side of the Harbor Center where I was asking prospects about

your scouting reports about them. You have read this by now, right? Yes. What was your, I mean, well, I guess we'll, we'll get to your review of their reviews in a minute, but I thought it was actually pretty fun. I was skeptical at how it was going to go, unprompted going up to people and asking them, you know, can I read you a scouting report about yourself? I did have one player ask me, is it going to be bad? And I, you know, it's just going to be a report. The answer that would

probably range depending on the range of prospect, right? Right. I said there's a little bit of both. It's just someone's scouting report. And honestly, once I said that, they're like, yeah, like, okay, like, sure, let's do it. And I thought they were all really good sports about it. Any answers in there, so there's 11 prospects, any, anyone in there that you thought was a particularly interesting response to your report. Another thing that I thought that interesting. Obviously, I saw that Langwall push back pretty hard. Jeremy Languaw, the defenseman from Cape Breton.

I think it was about his skating and his defending. He didn't like the criticism of. But no, I just expected people to push back on things. I thought it was funny when, I mean, everyone loved the answers from Jonathan Lackeroamaki, where he didn't push back whatsoever. I think he was just very honest about his shortcomings, which I think, you know, I've seen people interpret that answer both ways. I was like, oh, interesting, that's not good.

Or I appreciate the honesty. I appreciate that he's aware of what he is and not blind to the issues in his game. So I thought all those answers were rather interesting. And I think the exercise was good. I think the NHL draft in the NHL in general can just be a little bit boring sometimes compared to the other sports in terms of the kind of personalities you get, in terms of the interaction between media and players. So I thought this was something you'd see a lot more in like basketball or football.

And I thought it was a good article. To me, the two that stood out in my head were Frank Nazar and Brad Lambert. And you have both ranked in a similar range. They're both first round picks for you. They're both, I think, top 20. They're both in your top 20, right? Yeah. Labber's a little, I think it's like 14 or 15.

And Nazar is like closer to 20. Yeah. So obviously you like both players, but I read them both your reports. And each kind of had one little. thing they really wanted to push back on with with nazar it was actually your projection right where he said a number three with a chance to be a number two and he feels pretty strongly that that he's a two with a chance to be a one all right um and and then there was lambert who and this was the one i was looking forward to doing the whole day uh was you you was he at the end of the of the session

the second to last one i did he was right around the event started like seven 30 i think he was right around new so you were just chomping at the bit that there then yeah sort of i mean but i thought i wasn't going to get him because he held court he held court for like 20 minutes of course you know he's a top he's a top big name yeah yeah it's just people who don't know so like the combines where you know a lot of the media get to meet these players for the first time they only can meet them on that one day of the combine even though it's a week long event um so when when that happens it's just it's just like it's like a stanley cup finals around these kids essentially right and you know there's a wall of cameras and like with

With Lambert, I knew, with any of these kids, I wouldn't have really, there's a couple of kids who had smaller groupings and I was able to just do it there. But especially with Lambert, there was like, you know, several cameras and I was toward the back of the line. I would have literally been shouting your scouting report at him. And that wouldn't have been quite as good as it might have been for like a Savoy who almost every line of that report was positive. Sure. You know, at the end of the Lambert report, you talk about him taking nights off and potentially frustrating coaches. And that was not something I wanted to yell in front of 50 people. and whatever. And so I really waited it out and I thought I wasn't going to get him. And we talked about whether we were even going to do that one or not, right? Yeah. Because I don't think you wanted to like this. We didn't want it to be mean.

Exactly, right. Yeah. And it's a little mean. I'm not going to lie. You know, it's my opinion. It's the opinion that people I talk to around the league. But it's, it's directed right towards a player. It could be a little harsh.

But that's why I thought it was maybe the most important one to do. Because it's kind of that you're giving the kid the opportunity to address this, right? And that's why I felt it was the one I was most excited for. I felt most important. Sure. Because you're actually giving them. It's not just, hey, this guy likes you. What do you think of that?

Sure. No, no. Listen, I criticize him. And it's, I think, perfectly fair to give him, what's the word I'm looking for? A platform to respond to that criticism. And what is probably a general falling in his draft ranking over the last six and nine months across the industry. 100%. And so that's what it was. And to his credit, like, not only was he willing to do it and

respond. To me, he pushed back a little bit. He pushed back plenty. He said, I don't think I take nights off. And, you know, like, I'm, I will be curious to see what NHL teams think of his responses in there. I haven't heard from anybody. I don't know if you have, but I would gather that frankly, a lot of the interviews I've, from teams I talk to, I think a lot of, maybe it wasn't the exact same phrasing, but I think there are a lot of similar things that would have been brought up. Yeah. And, you know, so to me, that's also another reason that kind of justifies the exercise to me is this is what they've been doing all week, right? They've been talking about themselves, both as a person and a player with teams. And so we're coming in at the end. They've already met with every team by the time they're talking to us. And so I thought it was interesting. But those were the ones I was the most looking forward to. I like the gumption from from all the guys who were willing to push back a little bit and say, hey, you know, even if maybe I get where they're coming from or whatever, like I think I'm better than that.

or I think that's not true about me. I respect that. Yeah, no. I think it was a good exercise and it's not something you really get to hear a lot from these players in this kind of process. It's usually just, you know, people like me saying things, their opinions, quoting scouts, et cetera. But you never hear from the player's perspective of, hey, hey, wait, wait, hold on a second.

I don't like where this is going. Yeah, right. And the guy that I actually was the most kind of, I just liked the whole interaction the best was, was Rieger Lorenz. And like that one wasn't a totally glowing report. I think it was generally positive, but it wasn't like this guy's a superstar or anything like that. But he just really took it in stride and had fun with it.

And that's something if I was in an HL team, that's the kind of guy that you want around, like a guy who can who can roll with the punches and who can engage honestly with that stuff, but still keep it loose. I really liked that one with Rieger Lorenz. Yeah, and I think, like that, you're probably looking, you know, Rieger Lorenz's draft season is so much different than Brad Lambert's, where, you know, where we have a little tumultuous, he changes teams. Riger Lorenz, got kind of guy that stock went up throughout the year, then it kind of went down. So it's, you know, what hasn't been in the limelight for, for years upon years. So very different probably perspectives going into the combine.

Yeah, absolutely. So while we were reporting it, we'll get to the next one in a second, but I was kind of feeling. you in bit by bit about little developments in this. And at one point, we were standing with someone from a team that we know and telling them about it. And they said that you're the harshest scouting grader that they know. Do you agree with that? You mean skating greater. Sorry, what did I say? It's scouting grader. Oh, yes. Which also might be true. Maybe also, yeah, right, skating grader that they know. And I thought that was interesting. I actually put that in the story. But you and I never talked about that. Do you think you're a particularly harsh skating grader?

I wouldn't say that. I don't, actually. I mean, I think I gave out plenty of high skating grades, including to several of the players that you talked to, like Chavis Casey and Brad Lambert and Matthew Savoy, among others. So I would disagree with that. Now, if some people disagree with some of the grades I put on the feet of various players, that's within their right. I think if you turn on a Stanley Cup playoff game over the last couple of days and watched Colorado Avalanche, watch New York Rangers, Tampa Bay Lightning, Emerton Oilers, and you see what a middle of the lineup player looks like on those teams. The bar for what an average NHL skater is is quite high. You look at, like I would call Ross Colton an average NHL skater.

I would call Yassie Pooley-RV an average NHL skater. And then those are guys who have a lot of pace and can move and, you know, you I mean, that, you know, Braden Schneider, Kiannardre Miller, Darnel Nurse. I mean, that all kind of like in that same range of skating ability. And these are important players on NHL teams that went to the final four. So, you know, that bar is just what the bar is. So if these guys might move well in junior, but we're talking about the national hockey league. So that's the perspective that I use.

And I would say talking to scouts around the league, I don't think. My skating evaluations seem particularly harsh, but everyone's entitled to their own opinion, including myself. All right. So producer, Chris, if we could just transcribe that and drop it on to the end of the article, that'll be the addendum that we can get done here to the to the Combin article. The other thing out of the Combine I want to talk to you about, really good piece, I thought, from our Montreal colleagues that we had on the show a couple weeks ago, Arpan Basu and Mark Antoine Godin.

and they kind of did a, I think it was kind of like what we heard at the combine, what we learned at the combine, but touch on a lot of really good stuff. Montreal was real visible at that event the entire week that, you know, you saw them coming and going a lot. I think they were, you know, really, obviously for good reason. They have so many picks in that draft, including number one. But they're the most, one of the most interesting teams in this draft for those reasons. And anything in, in that article really stand out to you. Was it the kind of, is very much a real debate at number one, anything else? I think that's kind of the takeaway. that I think not surprisingly, based on everything we've been talking about for months now on this podcast, things we've been writing about at The Athletic, is that there isn't a consensus one. There isn't a McDavid at one that, or, you know, even like last year where Owen Powell kind of distinguished himself and said, I'm the guy after his world championships. You know, there isn't just an obvious pick to make here. And does it mean that there isn't a guy that. maybe in Montreal ends up being very passionate about and is very excited to pick number one.

I'm sure whoever they pick number one, they'll be super excited about. But I think there's going to be a couple of names, the names we've discussed, Logan Cooley from the program, you're Islavkovsky from TPS, and of course, Shane Wright from Kingston, that they're going to have to go through a significant debate over, and we'll see when they come to the end of their process, who they end up with. but what our colleagues have reported, it seems like, you know, that organization, not surprisingly, you know, sees, you know, reasonable alternatives to Shane Wright and have to, you know, really have to hash it out.

All right, Corey. So coming out of the combine, you came out with a updated mock draft. I think this was mock draft 2.0 for you. And there was actually a couple little nice moves in there. And not enormous. I mean, I don't, Carter-Gote was already pretty high in your previous mock. he's now at number five in this mock to Philly. I thought that was a pretty interesting set of moves.

How related was that to the comment that Gotea made on our show last week about teams seeing him as a center, including next year? Yeah, and I don't think it's directly related, maybe more indirectly related. I think you used the word information lag a few episodes ago. And I think that's just kind of what this is, just talking to people at the combine. And in the week leading up to the combine, as I did the last mock, sorry. I think there is a sentiment there that he could be a top five pick. It's not universal among team sources I talked to, but I would say there's enough out there that I don't think this opinion's out of left field

in terms of where the NHL is right now on Cutter-Goche, that there are people who see them as a center, someone who could be at top of the lineup center, and giving just the tool kits the 6-2, 6.5 at the combine, I think he measured a 6-2-5 at the combine. You can skate. He's got great skill, great an elite shot. play at both ends. I mean, there's a lot there's a lot there that's getting people excited. So I think what we thought of as far as a consensus top five, which was Shane Wright, Logan's Cooley, Yorosovsky, Simon Nemish, David Yerichick, I would say, has expanded to a tier of six. Okay, well, then in that case for the average listener who maybe was a little surprised to see

Gotee in the top 10 on lottery day a few weeks ago, who is now coming around, okay, now in that consensus top six. Let me ask you this. Do you have a sense for a ceiling on Cutter-Gotiay's draft position? Like, is there a spot where you say, I think he could get up into three? Is it up to two? Yeah, I think Arizona three is probably the highest. I can see it go.

And even then, I think might be a little high because I just think those three other forwards, which is Shane Wright, Urizzavkovsky, Logan Cooley, have somewhat separated themselves. but I don't think they've separated themselves to the degree where that's impossible. Where, you know, if, you know, if Arizona-I concludes we want, we want a big center, and that's just like something we covet with one of our, you know, with a lottery picks, you know, that's what we want to get because, you know, with, say, an example, with someone like Logan Cooney, even though he was the center in the NDP. In fact, he centered the line that Cutter Goatje was on the wing on.

You know, we've talked about this before. There's only so many centers in the NHL who look like him. You know, it's Jack Hughes, it's Brain and Point, it's Vincent Trocheck. And at least among the guys who play really high in the lineup and are impactful players. So I could see a team talking themselves out of that as Hayana, maybe Logo is not a center. Of course, maybe Carter Goethe is in a center too. I think those are all fun conversations to have in the lead-up to the draft. You know what I was thinking with Goteau the other day? I was trying to think,

okay, well, he's all the sudden like a center in the eyes of this draft, it seems. And I was trying to think, how does that work out history? Are there other examples of guys who played some center and became full-time centers? And I thought back to just 2018 or 2019, and Trevor Zegris was in a very similar situation. He filled in for Turcott playing center. But by the time, I think it was the end of the year, he was right back on Jack Hughes's wing for the national team. So there's a good precedent. He's, for me, a center in the NHL.

There's a good precedent. That's a good example. Sorry, I say better. That's okay. And another example that I thought of is actually one that Cutter Goce brought in our interview was Pierre-Luc Dubois in 2016, who played wing most of that season in the QMJHL. And from the second he was drafted, Columbus said he's a center. And the season afterwards in the queue, he played center.

and that's basically what he's been as a pro ever since. That is better because it's more stylistically apt, so I'm not worried about that. How far off do you think up here look Dubois can he be? It's, you know, I think a little bit different. I think Dubois was just meaner. He plays, I think Goethe competes hard, but I mean, Du Bois is like a really mean physical player to play against. But Goetier is a better skater.

Dubois is skating. has never been a selling point of his game. So while I think there are some, some minor stylistic differences between the two of them, I think as a pure projection, that's probably not far off. And he obviously went number three. So I think that's pretty relevant. Moving down your board a little bit, we get to a couple of teammates that I think are worth talking about. And the first name of the grouping is Kevin Kortinski in Seattle.

So let's just start with the Seattle kids. They are now in the, in the WHL final here. Kortinski and Reed Schaefer, who you have toward the back of the first round here. be the last pick of the first round here. How has this run through the WHL playoffs affected? Not just maybe the stock, but what teams are seeing in these guys? It's a look at them against the best competition their league has to offer. Oh, yeah.

And listen, they knocked out Portland in seven, whoever are a good team. I think when they knocked out Camloops, who looked just stacked and just so many good players. Logan Stan Cove, one of the best players in the CHL. They had really good goaltender there, Dylan Garron, and some really good depth up down the lineup. When they beat them, I think that really opens them eyes. Like, oh, hey, hey, this Seattle team's for real. I think people knew they were for real. I think that was always the kind of team. They were. They had some injuries throughout the season and they kind of held them back in the standings. But, you know, really impressive playoff run. And yeah, just like, there were

reports that keep coming back from people who go out to watch Kevin Kortchinsky that I'm talking to. Just continue to be positive after positive after positive. I still am that around 15 on my board, 15 and 16, forgot the exact number. And I've gone back and kept reevaluating and I haven't, I'm not going move off that one, I don't think. But just, just, I think what I, I'm doing, I've been doing some surveys going into the draft of like, hey, talking to scouts over the last few weeks, I'm like, you know, who's a guy outside the top 10 consensus names who can make their way in? And they would just keep coming back and saying, Kortinski, Korninski, Korninski, Korninski.

And I think we're at the point now where I, he's just a consensus. Yeah, I, and I have to go back and edit that article now because I think, I think the point's kind of been made already and that I think he's gonna he might I have him at 10 in this mock draft to Anaheim but I I talk to people who think he could go higher than that and you know just because six two defensemen the skating he has legitimate offense I think it's like a point of game in the playoffs right now and it's playing a lot of minutes and uh he's a young player too things like a junior July 04 so you're hoping for some maybe there's more projection there in that game too so uh the defense is

and inspiring, but I, you know, people can keep coming back to. Maybe he's next to Shia Thed, or I think that's high personally, but, but that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the big role on this team, too. I mean, I, Khorchinsky is the big time player among the two, but he's on the top power play, he's scoring a point for game in this playoff run, too. He's a big physical winger. He's got some offense. Skating's just okay, so that's why he's in a different range of the draft. But this is a guy that I think is going to be a late day one and the latest early day two type of pick. Let me walk you back to saying maybe even higher than 10 for Kortinski because I look at

the teams that are in, especially once we get beyond that kind of top five-ish tier, okay, Columbus may be, but they do have, you know, a pretty young left shot D number one. I know that, you know, obviously need more beyond him. So that one I can maybe see. But Ottawa is a team that, you know, you would think the. left side is going to be hard to crack there for a really long time. Buffalo, same deal with power and Dahlene. There's not that many more spots in the top 10, right? You really touch talking about Detroit, Columbus, maybe Philly, right, at that point? Yeah, I mean, I just think

it, you know, you don't get to that point in the draft where, because you have too many good defensemen. No, it's fair. I think the Buffalo one is interesting because they have, you know, they have power. They have Dillian and they have Samuelson, but I don't think Ottawa was or even Even Detroit's is that. Detroit's not crazy. No. Even Columbus. You know, Columbus, Ottawa, like, I mean, their blue lines are not that.

I know Shabat's a great player, but I mean, there's, those teams both need help. So I would not, I would not rule that one out. I just would think the right side. Like, you know, if you're a check and Nemitz are both gone, then maybe. But like, to me, it's just like if you're on, especially if you're talking about like in Ottawa, I would think Eurocheck would be the one there. but he may yeah i think i think he's probably their dream scenario either i'm sure they would love to get either of those defensemen as a dream scenario but um i've ever mentioned jake sanderson before but

you know you can yeah yeah i don't think that's the end of the world um but yeah no well but we'll see yeah all right uh the other set of teammates that i want to talk to you about is obviously the winnipeg kids and there was a time where it wasn't crazy to think that they both could have gone maybe even top five in this draft, Savoy and Giki. They're now both outside of your top 10. Yeah, and I kind of think like this is, they're like in a range there. I think they're kind of, you know,

Savoy's at 11. I can see him go like, maybe eight or nine or whatever or 10. I could see Giki kind of go in that range too, but just talking to people, you know, whether it was at the combine and the weeks leading up to the combine, I guess that seems to be the way the winds are blowing right now a little bit where I think you're seeing Casper moving up.

Obviously, Carter Gochay's been moving up. Kevin Gorchinsky's moving up. And if guys have to move up, there's only so many spots in the top 10. So somebody's got to come outside of the top 10. And that's just, you know, given that, you know, so if I slow down a little bit in the second half, I don't think either of them really put up big numbers in the second half or in the playoffs. I think that's kind of where their pro early teens would be maybe as high as

Buffalo's pick, but maybe a little bit lower than that. That's kind of where I think their range is right now. You and I spent a little bit of time at the combine talking about a guy in next year's draft and Zach Benson. And he's kind of already having an impact on this year's draft potentially when you get into that with Savoy because he kind of took Savoy's power play spot there toward the end of the year, right? Right, yeah. So Savoy was running the right flank on the first powerplay unit. It was, recall my head, I believe it was Jack Finley at the net, Ben Zalotti, the older player, on the point and then it was Connor McClend

who was unsigned by Philadelphia and then you had Owen Peterson and then you had Matthew Savoy on the right flank they moved Savoy off the right flank to the second unit with Giki and Lambo's and they put the 16 year old Zach Benson up there

and he just and it wasn't just in the playoffs it was kind of a thing that happened in the second half of the season there and he just kind of took that role and ran with it he I think even though they've been eliminated I think Benson still something like, as we record it was like second, third, fourth, and WHL scoring in the playoffs, something like that, which is for a 16 year old, it's a little bonkers. So, yeah,

I mean, and I think it wasn't just because Benson played so well. I think that those moves happened because there's, there's momentum in two directions. Sure. But, but, but yeah, that is, that's a part of the story for sure. I just, I guess I'm asking just because I wonder, like, is that the kind of thing that an NHL team is, but to your point, it's probably momentum in both directions. But I wondered if they'd be like, well, if a guy who's going to be one of the better players in next year's draft was there, do you knock him too much because the production fell? I think you always put the team in context. You know, whenever there's been those loaded London Knights teams and Beau Horvettes on the second power play,

he still goes on the top 10 because people understand those things. I think that's all part of the context, Nathan Gosey is on the first power play in Quebec, but understand it's on a deep team. I think he's still going to be a first round pick for those reasons. You always put these things in the relative context. but I guess when you're a, when Bo Horvett is a big, powerful center,

when I, when your calling card is that you're a offensive winger, probably in the NHL, you probably wouldn't like, yeah, you, you, that's,

that's a thing that's a, at the minimum, it's a minor flag. Yeah, no, you, you want that guy to, to be commanding of their power.

I do get that. With geeky, any other kind of final thoughts, you got him slotted 12 to, to Columbus, which, you know, certainly in Columbus's scenario here that you have laid out, they get, you're a check and geeky, you get the right shot D and the center and you're pretty happy.

Yeah. I think that'll be a great outcome for them. I think, you know, those two kids were really, those two being Savoy and geeky because they've really got wire to wire in terms of just being 50-50 options for teams. Some people have some people have preference for Sevoy and that, yes, early in the season, that was higher in the drive-to-wire. draft and now it's a little bit lower, but it's still those two among people I talked to in the NHO is razor tight.

Let me ask you the same question for these two guys that I asked you for Gautier. What's the highest you could see Savoy and Gigi at this draft at this point? I think I said, like I said, I think Buffalo at nine. Yeah, for either one of them. Yeah, unless, you know, you cover the, you cover the red things. I think Detroit at eight could be real. I do. Yeah, I think so.

Yeah, I think that's possible. I think Ottawa at seven is. I think you probably want more there. Okay. All right. I like that. The other guy who I think has been a riser out of the SHL is Leon Bischel. And there's a couple of these.

We'll talk about two SHL guys here in this draft. You've got Bishel now up to 13 for the Islanders. Had a chance to kind of lurk at his scrum. I asked him a couple of questions at his scrum at the Combine Day. Big kid, impressive kid. But when you see the tape, I watched some shifts yesterday prepping for the show, man, the physicality really does jump off the screen at you. You're right.

And just a quick for when I said anything before, I could see even Savoy up, Savoy maybe up to seven. I think that might be a little bit harsh. I think because there's a tier of six, we've talked about before, and then maybe, I may one don't be too harsh to the Savoy. But yeah, in terms of Bishol, yeah, I mean, just, I, it's kind of evident to see why there's some teams liked him. I heard he interviewed very well at the Combine, too.

And I wasn't part of that scrum, so I didn't get to talk to him. but like I've heard of interviews well. He's a confident kid, and yet just the physical tools just, it's not hard to spot on the ice. He's six foot five. He can skate. He's, you know, he plays really hard. He's a very physically imposing defenseman to play against.

He can close and kill a lot of plays with his gaps. And the only question on him is how much offense he has. And that's a question I've struggled with over the last. last two years watching him. I still don't think it's all that great, but I think there's just enough there that he could play a top four role and do all those great defending things I just mentioned

while being good enough with the puck that if you put him with somebody who has those skills, that that could be a very good top two pair in the NHL. I don't know a ton about the Swiss Junior League, But he was productive there last year. And then when he did, it wasn't many games, 11 games in the J20 in Sweden this year, reasonably productive there still for a defense. Yeah, like seven or what, seven or eight points in nine or ten games, something like that.

Seven and eleven, yeah, which is not crazy, but it's three goals. Right, right. But you don't need him to be crazy. Right. I mean, yeah, if he was, then, you know, we'd be talking about it a little bit higher at the draft. Five, right, yeah. But you don't need him to do that. all you need is if he can make the occasional skill play, the good outlet passes, you know,

finish shots, yeah. Yeah, don't screw up at the offensive blue line. If he does just those things well with the size and the feet and the compete, he's going to be a really good at HL defenseman. How about Bistet, who's the centerman out of Lynchaping, Philip Byset, you've got him in the 20s here. but a player that you said you've been hearing a lot about kind of in this run up lately. Yep, I've been talked to some teams I've talked to.

I think there's quite a not, I wouldn't say it's a consensus opinion, but there's enough that I've heard that think this guy could be a late one that I saw kind of put him into that, into that range. And the reason why he could be a late one is just six foot three centers who can skate are not easy to find. And there is some offense there. I wouldn't say it's fantastic offense, but you know, you saw with Sweden's U18 team, He's running the flank on the power play units.

You can shoot the puck. There's some plays he makes here and there. Is he going to be a big time offensive producer? Probably not. But, yeah, man, those athletic tools just kind of, they kind of scream at you when you watch them. And another one who's, you know, when he was with the J20s, his production's not that far outside of kind of the Yorgant kids.

Yep. You know, and just, again, he's not. And I don't like those guys. He's much bigger and has like real, you know, eye catching speed for a big guy. You would like to see the compete be a little more consistent, but just that there's a lot there to work with for a pro projection. So you've got him going right behind Nathan Goshae.

How do you kind of split hairs there between two guys who, Gosey more is kind of the shutdown, you know, grindy center type, I guess. But how do you split hairs there for who's going to go first? I think you kind of, yeah, I mean, they're probably close. You know, Gosei, you kind of know what you're getting. he's big, he's competitive, he can make some plays, he kills penalties, I think you know you're getting an HL player, I think he's going to be a third line center

in the NHL. Bystet, you know, he doesn't kill penalties. He's not super hard to play against, and while there's offense, it's not high-end offense. So I still think there's a bit of a question of, okay, what's his role exactly on NHL team? Has he, you know, clearly identified exactly. exactly what he's going to do in the NHL for you, or is it more what I think is there's a lot to work with there, but I'm not going to sit here yet and tell you he's for sure a top

nine four in the NHL because I want to see the offense a little bit more consistently, or I want to see off the puck dimensions that make you think, okay, he can do these things for an NHL team. That's what I think the separation is there. You know, as I fact-checked myself really quick, making sure I wasn't too far off when I talked about him and the Yurgar gets. He is pretty close to Noah Ossland, but holy smokes was Liam Ogrin's production on a per game basis insane this year. Yes, we talked about it on the, I think on the previous episode. Yeah, I had just forgotten it.

Yeah, no, I mean, he lived that league, Lekromaki did very well in that league, but he out-produced O'Grath when he went to the SHL. I think that reason was for the skating differential that Liam O'Grathed disputed. But, but yeah, no, I mean, his numbers were outstanding. And I think even though I think when you watch him, maybe it's not the most overly flashy game in terms of speed and skill you'll ever see. But it works. All right, Corey, let's wrap up today then with the article that you published on Wednesday. And I think this is an interesting one because this one, it is a ranking, but it's just based on nothing but upside.

It's basically just your, if I knew nothing else about these players but wouldn't watch their tools, is that a fair? description. Right. So it was my first attempt to write this type of articles. So we kind of debated the best ways to kind of describe it. And this is, I think, the clearest way I could say this is, you know, it was a draft ranking based purely on who has the highest upside. What do I mean by who has the highest upside? How do you define that? And it's just based on a player's traits. It's just by watching the players grading out the tools and saying, okay, here are the grades on the tools, who's the best? And I'm sure some people might listen to that and say, wait, I thought you, is that what you always do?

And that's somewhat true, but, and this might freak out some people, I also look at their numbers, and I see how they perform at various events. Are they consistent? Do they score? And that's important because my eyes are not perfect. They're far from it, actually. And I think those performances can capture things that I'm missing from my own personal evaluation of the attributes.

So you balance out of information and then you come to what the actual draft rankings are. In this one, we don't do that second part. I just watch the players. I grade the attributes. And I say, this is the order I would have to bid. Okay. So almost always, whenever we talk about one of your lists, I start at the top and then go downward from there to think of what I want to talk to. I think that's how 99% of people read it to.

No, no, no, no. I'm talking about when I talk to you about it. Like, I never jump down and pick from the middle. I get it. That is funny. I was shocked at how low relative to your actual list. you had Brad Lambert on this at number 25 given that usually the conversation around Lambert is always about, but the talent is so real that if the other stuff works out, he's going to be a star. That's a good point.

Now, that's where the distinction comes in. And I don't try to wait to the comments, but I actually mention this in the comments of that article, is what do we mean by tools? because if you just said, well, I just mean skating, size, and skill, then he would be in a different spot on this list. But that is not what I mean, because I consider compete level, not just a tool, but an important tool when I'm doing this exercise. And he grades low in that area,

despite what he disputed, as we talked about earlier in this podcast. So in that context, he grades lower. And the reason why he's higher on my actual list is because he has such a rich track record where he went to the World Juniors last two seasons ago and was excellent. He was excellent versus men. He's played up at his age level for several years at the, you know, whether it's the U20 or the U18 level and had moderate to good success at various times.

And combined with the skating and the skill and the size, All that put together makes me slot him as a top 15 player. But if I just watched 10 random games of Brad Lambert this season and didn't know anything about what happened beforehand, I'd probably have him slotted in the 20s. All right. I think that's really good perspective. That's why I wanted to start there. Now we'll go to the top. And in the top, I mean, I would love to know how you tier these guys actually because the order is one Logan Cooley, two year ice Levkovsky.

three cutter Gautier for Shane Wright. That is obviously a similar grouping to what you have on your actual list in the top. I think six is still where Gautier was on your list. Yes. But the order has changed and I'd be curious if the tiering changes. I would probably put the first three into a grouping and then I would have Wright and Miroszacchenko kind of in a grouping by themselves. At least I would need to go back and think about that a little bit more. I debated doing tears for this, but I thought that'd be a little bit too extra.

Yeah, overkill, shirt. For such a theoretical exercise. But just off top of my head, that's how I would do it. Well, it's interesting because we had a conversation at a bar the night before we kind of, well, you had already gotten going. It was my first night in Buffalo. We had a conversation with a colleague at a bar about basically this very topic. Like who, I think the question was, I wasn't there when they asked the question, but I was part of the conversation. I think I was grabbing a round for us.

I'm sure this was a very coherent conversation. You were there. I know. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, like if we could play it back, how coherent would it be? I don't know. But the question, right, was like, who in this draft has the potential to be like the McCar?

And I don't think they meant it just as a defenseman. Right. Just, you know, because I think not just my opinion, but it is my opinion too. And just most people talk to around the league is. If you had to make a bet right now and who's going to be the best player in this draft. And I said you can take whoever is number one on your personal list, whether it's right, whether it's Lefkoffkoffsky, whether somebody else, or you could take the field. I think almost everybody at this stage is taking the field. Not because they don't love Shane Wright, but because he has not given them such overwhelming confidence that he would be the best guy 10 years from now.

So thus, it reminds them of 2017 draft. So that's why we're asking who could go at three or four or eight or 12 and potentially rise in 10 years to be the best guy. Well, and I think that you're right at number one with Logan Cooley on this one. Because to me, it was almost like for me personally watching the season play. I just was kind of waiting for Logan Cooley to take number one away. I really like Shane Wright. I like both players.

I do put kind of a premium on the center position. but I kept wait because he's electric. Every time you watch him, he's not quite to like the McAvon McCar, hold your breath every time he's on the ice because he might do something. But when he has the puck, like he looks really special to me. And you just kept waiting for the production to match it like it did with like a Jack Hughes. And it never got there. And so it never, to me, became kind of that number one.

I think our friend Chris Peters, though, does have Cooley at number one. It does, yes. And so to me, this is a perfect way to differentiate it because it, He does have that wow factor that to me, maybe only Slavkovsky could really match in this draft. Right. But at least, you know, the reason why Slavkovsky is over him on my actual list, even though I think on pure, pure tools, they're close. And even though Slavkovsky's production this season wasn't perfect,

there's a couple of moments, the Halenka, the World Championships, the Olympics, where the things he accomplished rise to exceptional level. that Cooley just couldn't match. He had 10 points of the U-18s this year. That is nothing special by any means. Shane Wright had almost as many goals in last year's U-18s as Cooley had points this year. That's fair, but wouldn't you say there were still moments?

Because there was like moments where he was like stick handling in a phone booth at U-18. Oh, there's no question. He's dynamic and he looked really good. And even though they lost because Hugo Havlet had the day of his life, you know, they were the clear best team in the tournament and he was their best player. So there's no disputing he had a great tournament. But the question isn't, did he have a great tournament? The question is, did he have a tournament worthy of being the first overall pick?

No, and he didn't. But it's just like that. It's why I like this differentiation because it really gets at what I just, I almost wanted to say he was my top guy, but it just never quite took it. and this is a good way to illustrate it. So I really like that. We can move down the list now and stop dwelling here. I'm trying to look for people.

Bishel's another guy. Like he's in the top 10 of this list. Obviously, a little outside it on yours. Savoy, similar ballpark, I think, on both of us. I think he's 10 on this one. Right. Yeah. I think, you know, those top 10-ish guys are all like similar names,

maybe in different orders. But, but, and, you know, you can quib on whatever, whether you think Savoy should be higher, whether you think Wright should be higher, or whatever, but I think those are all the similar names. I think the list gets interesting as you kind of go down. Well, and really at 11, like Yanni Neiman is the first one that I'm like, okay, now we're in business here because he's in the 30s for your real list.

Right, and that's just because, you know, not a great skater, not, you know, average compete. And, you know, and this season when I watched him, there were moments where he was, I thought he was really good. And you're like, oh, okay, there's a toolkit to work like, six, two, and he's It's a really good skill and hockey sense, and you could shoot it. And, you know, he was productive this season versus men. It was in the second tier, not the league.

And it wasn't a great second tier team he was playing on as well. But still quite productive versus men. So, yeah, there's just, you know, there was U18 games. Even he played for the U20 team for a couple of games in there in August, where you were, like, really impressed and saw things to work with. But there were moments when he played internationally or with his club team where he just weren't as blown away. But man, there's some talent there.

and he's a really young 04-2 so it's possible he could show up to camp next season in the league and just and just kind of pop off not unlike maybe like how like roby arventi did when alwa took him and he goes to ilvis right after and he's and he was really productive so i can see i can see a lot of similarity between those two players so at number 12 you've got a guy from the 60s on on your on your board and that's kirol dozenkov am i saying that right yeah that's right and you know i mean he was a fun player to watch this season when I watched his MHL takes these whatever it's like six five six foot six forward maybe one of those maybe is even too big to be to play forward in the NHL but like man like huge powerful

great hands was a big part of a top mhL team that season the skating is really rough didn't didn't put a big numbers in Russia didn't get to play international hockey for various reasons that kind of he kind of progressed late and then obviously the situation you know when the invasion of Ukraine happen. They weren't, you know, weren't invited. If he had gone to a U-18 world, are things different?

Never know. But as of now, I don't have that information. So that's kind of why he was on the actual list. But, but, yeah, I've watched him this season. The tool, the tool scream at you. So we talk about this a lot. There's not that many comps at either end of the height spectrum. And he's obviously at the very far, a tall end of that at 6-6. But like, where on like a Elmer Soderblum, Tage Thompson continuum is here. I think there is some Soderblum comparisons there. I think there's a lot. You can make comparison there.

Sotroblum, I think, has followed his best case in arrows. Not an NHL player, but he looks like he's going to be an NHL player. But I think at the same age, you could really, you can connect those dots. Yeah, okay. Anyone else that you really are dying to talk about in this grouping? I mean, a lot of similar names, maybe up or down a little bit, Daniel Jolkin, Philip Byset or in their Cam Lund would be a good one because this is a guy that you and I have had some conversations about and he's in the top 20 here on the upside list.

Yeah, I think all three of them kind of feel like a similar type of vein. They're good size forward. All 6-1-6-2, I think Gilkin 6-1, 1-6-2, Byset 6-3. I'll skate well. I'll provide varying levels of offense. I would say Jilken and Lund's pure skill levels pop a little bit more. Lunds compete a little bit more, you know, not inconsistent than wise a bit lower than those two. but all their compete, I wouldn't say, are really selling points.

But all three of them just, you know, they're easy to see on the ice, it's easy to imagine in the NHL, just with the attributes they have, the offense, the offensive touch that is, the skating, the goal-scoring abilities. Just you would like to see it all come together a little bit more, but there's a lot to work with there, with all those players. Even when you get down to the bottom, you're looking at like Daniel Ivanov or Victor Nukchev, if I'm saying that right, I think it's interesting that there are so many Russians, and I wonder how much of that is because of the lack of parity, I guess, in the Russian Junior League.

Does it make it tough to get that extra contextual information that you really want? Yeah. I mean, Noychev and Ivanov are late 03s. So usually they wouldn't have been part of the World Junior team, but typically in the second half of the season, Russia would play international 20-turrets. in April. And you, if, you know, that's like where a guy like a Dimitri Varanco popped off there, for example, who's now one of Columbus's top prospects. And you kind of can capture some like late risers in that sense there, if Anoff kind of

rose late in which of which is kind of rosened as a season went on. And they, if they would have performed there, you could have maybe said, oh, okay, you know, I see, I see a path for you now kind of thing to being a higher pick. and I think Noychev is still someone who's thought up really well around the league as a potential top two-round pick. But yeah, I think the lack of international hockey is going to be a big issue with these Russian players, not just for this season, but next season two. My understanding from seeing the international calendar for next season is there's going to be no Russian at any international event, not even like those November-February tournaments or anything like that.

So I think you're going to be doing a lot of watching MHL tape, not just for me, but for teams as well going forward. Did you plug this into like a spreadsheet or anything and see like who who boosted the most on your actual board from their non upside factors? I did not. However, if people are really bored, they are free to do that and I will gladly promote it. Yeah, if anyone wants to run that, maybe we'll talk about it on next week's show. But that's going to do it for this week. Thanks for listening. And you can subscribe to The Athletic on Audio Plus on Apple Podcast to get all the bonus content from our entire network.

starts you with a 30-day free trial and then just 99 cents a month after that. And right now you can subscribe to The Athletic for a dollar a month for six months when you visit theathletic.com slash hockey show. Do that. Corey's got a ton of good content coming for you to read on the draft. And we've got obviously great stuff from our entire network, especially the NHL network at this time of year. So we hope you'll do that.

Talk to you soon.