The Athletic Hockey Show - Cutter Gauthier forces trade out of Philadelphia, room on the red hot Canucks bandwagon and Jack Adams favorites

Episode Date: January 9, 2024

Ian Mendes and Julian McKenzie welcome Mike Russo to discuss the surprise trade between Philadelphia and Anaheim, with Jamie Drysdale joining the Flyers and prospect Cutter Gautheir getting his wish, being traded by the Flyers.Thomas Drance talks about the resurgent, surprising Vancouver Canucks who are tied for 2nd overall in the league.Plus Ian and Julian take a look at Dominik Luszczyszyn's NHL awards watch and wonder why Sidney Crosby isn't getting any Hart Trophy love, Nick Suzuki leading the Selke vote and the guys discuss who should be in the conversation for the Adams trophy: including Rick Tocchet, John Tortorella, Spencer Carbury and Rick Bowness.Subscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. Hello and welcome to your Tuesday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. It's Ian Mendez and Julian McKenzie with you. And it's a good thing, my friend, that we have a Tuesday edition of the podcast because not an hour or two after we wrapped up and put a bow on the Monday podcast. We had ourselves a mega deal between Philly and Anaheim. You know what I loved? I saw somebody saying on Twitter that that's the definition of a cut and dry trade.

Cutter Goatee, Jamie Drysdale, cut and dry. Come on, that's pretty good. That's a very subtle. It's a very subtle dad joke you just made. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I love it. That's good.

That's good. Well, like, I mean, I had no idea. And it sounds like some people are now saying that they heard whispers that Cutter Goetjeet, didn't want to stay in Philly and that became evident and crystallized over the world juniors. But I got to tell you, I was shocked. Like I didn't even know that this thing was on the radar before it went down on Monday. I had no idea this was a thing. I had no idea there was interest.

I had, it really was a blind side with this type of move. I'm still just trying to put together the pieces in my own mind about why Cutter wouldn't want to play for the Philadelphia Flyers. It's not the first time a young player would not want to play for a franchise. And the Philadelphia Flyers have been the benefactors of that situation, see Lindrosse Eric. But like, I'm still trying to figure out why Carter Gote didn't want to play for the Flyers. I'm still trying to figure out if it's like people were, people were throwing out all these different theories out yesterday. Was it John Tortorella?

And then there was video of him on a podcast saying how he got to be. Torts and Torts was excited to meet him. And then we see Torts say he didn't know him from a hole in the wall. I've seen people throw out theories that, hey, he, he liked Kevin Hayes. Kevin Hayes liked him and Kevin Hayes left the flyers in the off season. That didn't necessarily go over well in certain cases. Like, does that have anything to do with that? It's at this point where there's so many questions with Carter Gote's motivations.

And at first I thought, too, well, why wouldn't Carter Gote's camp reveal? that he would want out, right? Like that's also an intriguing question to all of this too. We're so used to hearing agents talk for their clients and talk about how they're unhappy or leaked to a reporter that they're unhappy, and that could have gone out. But this was as quiet as he could get for such a highly-touted prospect to somehow be available on the market,

and then it's only after the fact we learned that he was. But the more I think about it, maybe because he hasn't played any NHL games, there's some kind of negative backlash that probably comes to him compared to an established player in the NHL doing this. You can tell that I'm very scatterbrained with all of this, but there are

so many questions for me about Carter Gote's motivations and ultimately, did he get what he really wanted? That's what I'm also curious about that too. Going to Anaheim, is that what he really wanted? Did he really not want to play for Philly that bad that he was willing to go there? But if you're the ducks, you have to make that

trade with some assurances that he's going to sign, right? That he's not going to basically let his time expire and pull an Adam Fox. Let's be honest, right? Let's call it the Adam Fox where he gets to then handpick his destination. So you mentioned you're like, man, I don't know why this guy wouldn't want to play for the Flyers. Who is Cutter Goet's favorite team growing up as a kid? The Pittsburgh Penguins.

Do you think in any way, shape or form, this guy, just had a hatred for anything related to Philly to the point. And we talked about, what's funny is we talked about this with Laz on the Monday pod. It's like, you know, you all, everyone grows up cheering for teams and having a favorite team. But then once you kind of get into the industry, a lot of that evaporates, is there any way that Carter Gautier's passion for the Pittsburgh Penguins extended into his playing career?

That'd be hilarious. I don't think so. I mean, Clyde is saying no. but that is, it is kind of funny that the Flyers would have been probably the team he hated the most as a kid. Absolutely. But that, but that's happened before where guys end up getting drafted by teams that, I mean, Connor Baderd grew up a Vancouver Cadux fan at the height of that Vancouver Chicago rivalry,

and he plays for Chicago now. I'll also do you one better, Ian. Could you imagine if Carter Goteet, Pittsburgh Penguins fan, drafted by the Philadelphia Flyers. He's with his family, and his family decides, well, you know what? We're all Pittsburgh Penguins fans too. We're not going to root for you

when you play for the Philadelphia Flyers. And could you imagine that wears on him? It's a callback to what we were talking about if you'd root for your kid, if they got drafted by a rival team. Remember that? Totally. And now we'll never know the answer with Cutter Goetje.

No, because of that. So I got a question for you here. Okay, because Cutter Goceig got drafted by the flyers. And we'll talk to Mike Russo about this too. So Cutter Gochek is drafted by the flyers and then clearly indicates at some point after he's taken in 2022, at some point in the calendar of the year in 2023, he and his camp indicate that the flyers were not signing there. I want to have a, I want to have a conversation about the draft because you brought up Eric

Lindrauss. That's another good example. brought up Adam Fox. Another example. Now it's Cutter-Gote. I'm going to throw out something for you and the listeners. I don't want to just, I'm just spitball in here.

Sure. What if we abolished the draft? Oh, damn, you're going there. Yeah. And when you turn 18, just as if you were in any other profession on the planet, you get to choose your destination.

You get to pick where you want to go. Is there, anyway, I'm not saying I'm advocating for, I'm just, I'm floating out the idea. Is there any, would there ever be a world in which you're like, you know what? I could see that. It would make sense. And then we would never have guys getting, the Lindrosse's and the, you know, Adam Fox, now kind of go, T.A.

We've seen it in other sports too where guys get dragged. John Elway famously said, I'm not playing for the Colts, right? um, there's, I was Steve Francis in the NBA. Like guys have said when they get trapped, I'm not going there. Would you ever advocate for that or think,

or think about a scenario where that could actually work? I'm trying to picture scenarios of how it would work in my mind. Are you familiar with the national signing day that they have in collegiate athletics? Like what, yeah, like what if, what if it was like that? Yeah. What if you had the prospect pool and,

and players decided, okay, I'm going to talk to these six or seven teams. And then you had one day where all these players in their respective hometowns, or if they went to an NCAA school or wherever they're at, they sit at a table, they have all these different NHL hats in front of them, and they're like, okay, I'm going to play for the San Jose Sharks in 2024. They put on the hat, they sign the third. three year entry level contract and they go from there. That would be kind of cool, but I don't know if anyone,

I don't know if how many people would go for that. I think we're a little too set in our ways with the draft, but of course it's being decentralized after, after this year. But I don't know. I don't know if, I mean, I feel like a lot of hockey fans would hate it. Well, I don't know. I don't know.

Okay, let's say you're a fan in Nashville, Columbus, Ottawa, a small, small market. Yeah. Calgary. You're not getting, you know, if you're, you're Columbus, you're not getting likely Fantilli is not going to go there, right?

Chances are he's not going there. Brady Kachuk's not going to go to Ottawa if he has his druthers. So that would be the downside, right? But then the other side is like you're, I want, okay, if you were Connor Bidar, and you mentioned, you know, a guy grew up in Vancouver, but Julian, I don't, if you could handpick his destination, do you think he would pick? Vancouver. Think about it. Pressure of playing at home in the market.

And at the time, if you go back six, seven months ago, Vancouver was a little bit of a, a little bit of a train wreck, right? So I don't know that that Baderd picks it. Like, I don't know. But the problem becomes maybe all the kids pick the good teams. But then again, if you're fancily, but maybe you want to,

maybe you don't want to go to a place that's crowded with stars already. That's exactly my thought. That's my thought exactly. Because if you're a really good prospect, say you're not even number one overall quality. You're like a top five, top ten. And you think that signing with Vancouver right now is the right move. Yeah. I mean, when are you going to get that spot to play?

If you're an NHL ready prospect and you want to play or you care about being the man, do you want to sign with the best possible team right now? Are you okay with signing with a mid-tier team, a team where you'll get more opportunity? Like, would you sign with a San Jose right now? I can understand you might not want to sign with a San Jose right now. I could understand if you'd want to sign an Anaheim where they've got a lot of cool young players. You play in California. They might be closer to being a competitive team.

I was talking about producer Danielle before. There was a time that maybe Arizona wouldn't be on that list. I don't know if that's the case now. I mean, I get the college rink is is the issue right now. You have to hope that they resolve that issue, but they're a team that's knocking on the door of being a playoff team. Also, college rink or not, Arizona is very nice, especially in January, February.

You know, you go to some Canadian market, you walk out of your practice facility, it's cold in January and February. In Arizona, you can golf. I think that has to play into that, too. I also think that, I mean, I can understand why you downplay Ottawa, but, I mean, with new ownership, depending on who's part of those sales pitches, like, if it's just that the players, I think if you're going to have a system like that, you can't just have it where the kids just pick whatever franchise they want. I think teams should have the right to recruit the kids, essentially. Like, you might be a small market team,

but if you blow a kid away in their family with a pitch, who's to say that an Ottawa senator's team or Calgary Flames or Columbus even should be ruled all the way out and never underestimate the fact that a player may want to play close to home? Well, I'll tell you what, I don't know if it's that straightforward. I think there could be some merits to it, but I mean, that would be such a massive structural change. And I bet a lot of people would trump it up a lot of those concerns you brought up earlier.

Well, I'll tell you what, I'd love to delve into this a little bit more on the trade between Anaheim and Philly. We'll do that with our pal, Mike Russo. He's standing by, so we'll take a brief break here. When we come back, Mike Russo, in conversation with us about the big Philly, Anaheim. All right, let's bring in our pal Mike Russo here, joining us on the Tuesday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. This is the last, it's the 9th of January. This is the last time I'll say it. Happy New Year.

Yeah, I know. Happy New Year to you guys too. It does become annoying after a little while, but since we haven't seen each other in about two weeks, I think it's fair. Yeah. Hey, listen, you're... That's a career enthusiasm episode, by the way. Yeah. I don't know who it is. Yeah. Listen, I, you're about it. Mike, you're about as plugged in as anybody in this league. And so I really want to get your take on this. Like, the flyers have obviously known for months that Hunter Goce didn't want to sign there. And other teams presumably

would have known that as they started to explore trade options. How on earth, Mike? Did Danny Breyer and the Flyers keep this under wraps so long and keep that secret under wraps? Because obviously that affected the trade, would affect the trade value if everybody knew he wanted out. That's the biggest revelation to me in this whole saga is that actually other teams cannot leak stuff.

Who knew? That's a novel concept in today's day and age. I think it says everything about the respect level that Keith Jones and Daniel Breyer has. I'm sure that they didn't open the door to trading Cutter Gautier to 31 other teams. I think they probably identified players that would fit the mold if they were going to try to trade a talent like Cutter Gautier. And I think that he went to those teams, conveyed the importance of keeping this quiet.

Because if, as he said yesterday, Cutter changed his mind again and suddenly wanted to be a flyer that they needed to not absolutely skew him to the fan base and make them realize that this was a player that never wanted to play there in the first place. So that to me is the shocking thing is that, you know, that other GMs and other presidents and people around those guys that suddenly, you know, that learn about stuff. Like if you're going to trade for Kodogoget, you're going to talk to your scouts about what they think of Kodoget

that nobody opened their mouth. They picked a good team in Anaheim because I think any of the insiders will tell you, Anaheim and Pat Verbeek in particular is extremely, you know, unhelpful when it comes to sharing information and letting out laundry and things like that inside the organization. He's extremely respectful in that process and keeps things quiet. So they pick definitely a good partner if you were going to want to keep this quiet. So why wouldn't Carter Goethe want to play for Philadelphia? And on that subject of teams not wanting to leak stuff, I want to know if you and I think similarly,

why wouldn't Carter Goate's people leak that he wouldn't want to sign in Philadelphia? Well, probably for the same reason that I'm sure that they're upset right now that this is being aired because for the rest of his career, at least once a season, if he's in the Western Conference, he's going to have to go to Philadelphia and deal with fans that aren't the kindest to people that they do not like. We've seen that through the history of not just the Flyers, but all pro sports teams. So I think that they probably wanted to keep this quiet. But, you know, why would they also, you know, start to, why would he not want to go there? I mean, I think all of us have our suspicions. You know, maybe it really does have to do with, you know, something as simple as John Tortorella or something like that. That's what seems to be the reports out there right now. I sometimes think things like that are foolish because, you know, you're going to have a long career and John Tortorella, for the most part, will probably not be there long term. I mean, that's just the way that the world works in coaching.

It's a short-term issue that you might have to deal with. But for some bizarre reason, it just seems like they absolutely ghosted the flyers. It's very clear. I think Kevin Curr's our incredible colleague here at The Athletic is going to have a really good story coming out here in the next hour or so of really what went down there. And I know that he's got a lot of stuff in that I think fans are going to be very interested in. And it's very clear to me that for some reason the Flyers had been trying to be. meet with him and just have been unable to, not just in, you know, world junior tournaments and things like that, but going to college and trying to meet with him. So I think that for some

bizarre reason, he didn't want to go there. Players do have that right to make it known that they don't want to play a certain place. You know, I know that it's fashionable right now to just bash on Cutter-Goti, especially because we're only getting one side of the story. But just, you know, the one thing I'll always tell people whenever a player looks horrendous is that there's no loyalty in professional sports. If the Philadelphia Flyers tomorrow want to wake up and say, I don't want that player, they're going to just get rid of them. And everybody is just going to have to deal with it. And so sometimes players have the right to do the same thing. And, you know, that's the one thing I always get a kick out of.

We saw it with Jimmy Vessy, too, with the National Predators. It's like there's this just, you know, Mikey Riley with the Columbus Blue Jackets, Justin Schultz. also when he came out, Blake Wheeler. I mean, there's been many, many of these type of instances, and the players always act like they're the biggest victims in the world when, you know, 99% of the time, they're just getting up and trading a player and not caring about what it does to their life.

So I know that this kid hasn't played a game, but loyalty sometimes, you know, teams want to act like they're, you know, being victimized in these situations, but yet they do this all the time as well to the players. So until we hear, why Cutter-Gotier, if we ever hear why Go-T-A-Dot-A didn't want to play there, I think that we should all, again, sort of understand that we're just getting one side of the story here. You know, I want to move the conversation along because I know we have a bunch of things that we want to hit on with you,

but I'm going to do it this way. And I hope you appreciate the phrasing of this question, Mike. I can give you a scenario. Who gets booed louder? Cutter-Gotiate is first game back in Philadelphia or Mike Russo, if we let you drop the puck in Winnipeg. I wouldn't have the guts to drop the puck in Winnipeg. I don't even want to go to Winnipeg. Yeah, Ryan Hart, I think the better question is Ryan Hartman getting booed more is, I'll still go with Goatee, actually. Yeah. My guess is Jets fans get bored with the whole Ryan Hartman thing, because when the wild go there on February 20th, I'm sure something else will happen that will cause all hell to break loose. Yeah, that was an interesting story of the last couple, last week or so. Really, it happened what, New York.

year's Eve day. And then a couple days later, it came out that, that, uh, called Perfetti was wearing a microphone. And apparently, uh, Ryan Hartman told him on there that he high sticked them in the teeth, uh, two minutes in the game is essentially payback for the Brennan Dillon, uh, uh, situation that has Caprice up out of the wilds lineup, sort of old school hockey going after somebody that had nothing to do with the play. Instead of going after Brennan, you go after one of the young kids of the other team or a star of the other team. I think that all of us had heard the, you know, the claims by Colpherty absolutely just immediately believed it, especially because we hadn't heard from Ryan Hartman in the last couple, in the couple days after the claims were made for a couple of reasons.

One, they had a game, two, they canceled the practice, so then they had a game the next day, so I got them after that game. And the only thing that I tried to, you know, achieve with that story is to tell Ryan Hartman's side of the story. This was not a slanted story about any stretch. this was Cole Perfetti said his thing. Now Ryan Hartman saying his thing. Maybe the audio will come out one day and we'll know the truth of exactly what was said. I think all of us that know Ryan Hartman and cover Ryan Hartman probably would agree that most likely what Cole Perfetti said is accurate. I mean, Ryan Hartman plays on the edge, often goes over the edge. And I think anybody that's looking at the video probably sees at a minimum that it was intent to high stick them in the, whatever the motivation was, high stick them in the mouth. So, you know, that's, that's the only thing that I would, you know, say to, you know, to Perfetti's side and obviously Jets fans who, you know, have every right to be upset that one of their young kids got intentionally high-sticked into the teeth is that I was not trying to, this was no, like, if you read the story, this was not be supporting Ryan Hartman. This is me giving him, allowing him his side. We got Perfetti's side. Nobody has a Hartman side. I finally got Hartman's side. To me, it's over. Believe what you want. And maybe the audio one day comes out, like, you know, I'll like Bill O'Reilly and Chris Berman, you know, years later, all of a sudden the hot mic comes out because some angry, you know, employee at Fox News or ESPN left and took it with them and threw it on YouTube.

Maybe one day we're going to see this audio and find out that Ryan Hartman's full of it. But, but that was it. Like, you know, this was not me calling Cole Profetti a liar. This was not me accusing Cole Profetti of anything. I totally get why Jets fans are upset that Cole Profetti. he took a stick to the teeth. It's dangerous. If he wasn't wearing his mouth garden,

he probably would have no teeth today. Very well said on that. On the athletic website, we have the NHL Awards watchup that Dom usually does periodically. A lot of interesting rankings, especially for the Heart Trophy. You mean some of the names

are to be expected, Nathan McKinnon, Connor McDavid, but I don't see Sidney Crosby up there. And sitting in, he's just playing really well. How much of a factor should he be in the Hart Trophy race. Well, I mean, it's just, it really is amazing how well he is playing, especially in the context, guys, of how, you know,

the struggles that Alex Ovechkin has had this year. I mean, when you get up there in age, you know, father time does not spare anybody. And Sidney Crosby is still playing like, you know, an absolute stud, not just offensively, but I watched him the other night. I mean, you know, this guy continually could be up there for the Selke as well. He is just such an amazing player. there are, you know, for all the awards this year, there's just incredible competition.

For the Calder, I mean, I think we all think that obviously Connor Bredard would win it. But if this was last year, there'd be about seven guys that I think would have a better chance of winning it than Maddie Baneers. There's a lot of great rookies right now. But you look at the Hart Trove, and you got Kutrov and Matthews and McDavid and McKinnon's having an unbelievable season and should be right there as well. You know, it really is remarkable, but Sidney Crosby just continues to be an absolute, you know, stud in this league. He is somebody that I think, you know, he despises losing. And, you know, the key will be, obviously, if they get into the playoffs. If they have trouble getting in the playoffs, currently, I think they're, you know, near the bottom of a very, very tough division in the Metro.

You know, but they're right. A couple more points here or there. They can get, you know, leapfrog, you know, the Flyers, the Islanders. things like that. That will make the biggest difference. It's the same thing with McDavid. It's like if all of a sudden they have risen to the dead to making the playoffs, I think a lot of us are going to look and know that, again,

hard trophy guy. Mike, before we let you go, you mentioned that the Calder Trophy is a hotly contested one this year. And Bardard, obviously being out, maybe opens the door a little bit to some other candidates. Can you give our listeners kind of this national audience the Brock Faber pitch? Like, tell us why he's so good and why he should be at the top of this list. Yeah. And again, let me clarify.

Like, when I give my Brock favorite pitch, I'm not saying that he should win the Calder. I'm just saying that it's not cut and dry, you know, but right now he is not just playing at a Calder level. Now, I'm going to, it's funny because you know how last impressions are always the first thing you think about. He's coming off a really tough game last night, one of his toughest in a while and got pickpocketed for the first goal. where, by the way, Tyler Sagan looked like he was 2014 Tyler Sagan last night against the Wild. But back to favor, plays 31 minutes a game for a team that especially won 11 in their first team, 14 under John Hines. He was doing it without mostly Brodine and Spurgeon in the lineup.

So you immediately think that this team that is playing guys like John Merrill and Alex Kahligowski, father time has started hurt, Zach Bogosian, a minor league in Dakota Murmiss, who's been good, but he's still, you know, what he is. Jake Middleton playing, you know, he's a quality top board defenseman, but he's now suddenly Favors pair. Fabor has playing 31 minutes a game, just leading this team in every single analytical category. His numbers were almost Norris-like from a defensive standpoint.

He's starting to run their number one power play, which again, coming off last night, it's not one to brag about. He's their first guy over the board in every situation on the PK and all that type of stuff. So for a kid to come right off the college ring and to play as well as he has and now evolve his game offensively where he's just getting more and more opportunity, he's just a special, special defender. And again, if Conor Baudard was not in the league this year, I think that Rock Favor would be walking away with this trophy in a heartbeat. He's been that good. And especially if somehow the wild survived and make the playoffs, knowing that for the majority of the season, at least so far, they have not had their top two defensemen. I think it says everything about the guy.

And again, you know, this is not a, this is not a, you know, indictment on whether or not I think that Connor Bedard should win the trophy. But the wild, this kid on a team that has been at times very leaky defensively continues to be a tremendous plus player. And in every analytical metric is just not only just tops as rookies in the league in defensive categories, he's in top five in a lot of different categories from just an overall defensement standpoint. Yeah, it should be a lot of fun watching the Calder Race, the Heart Trace, all these races, as you mentioned,

seem like there's three, four, five candidates for each. Mike Russo, as always, thanks for dropping by the Tuesday edition, the Athletic Hockey Show, and we'll hit you up again next week. Yep, see you guys. Having fun, the rest of the show. All right, thanks so much. There goes, Mike Russo.

Notice he used the term cut and dry there? He said, Calder Race is not cut and dry. I loved it. It's like a whole thing. We're just going to run that joke into the ground. I am. I already did when I mentioned it the first time. Let's bring in Thomas Drance, shall we?

He's covering the wagon of all wagons. The Vancouver conducts. 30 years, my friend, since Vancouver and the Rangers met for the Stanley Cup final in 1994. And dare I say, a little bit of a preview on Broadway last night. And Vancouver answered the bell. So I'll start with this, Thomas Trance. Was that the biggest state? win from Vancouver this season?

I don't even know if it's their biggest statement win on this road trip. To be totally honest with you, I thought they were better somehow on Saturday, but man, was that a loud performance from a Vancouver Canucks team that's soaking up a lot of oxygen and should be that that series of back-to-back goals from

Pedersen and Hoaglander, like true 360 windmill, Tomahawk dunks on Igor Shosturkin and the Rangers in quick succession to effectively end that game. I mean, it's hard to watch those goals and see how the Canucks are creating. Like, for some, for a lot of the season, to be totally honest with you, they've been scoring goals, but the offense has been fortunate, opportunistic.

A lot of deflections, a lot of rebounds, a lot of unscreened wrist shots, a lot of stuff that you sort of shaking your head at at the end of the game thinking like, man, you know, it's amazing that they keep getting away with this. Those goals last night off the rush, you know, just ventilate. the Rangers defense, it looked different. Just as it looked different on Saturday in New Jersey when they crushed, like absolutely crushed the Devils territorially. Since they put together this lot of line again,

and I'm sort of hesitant to call it that because Miller's now in the middle where Pedersen used to be. But Pedersen, Besser Miller, together as a line, they did that in New Jersey, an absolutely dominated play. They did it again against the Devils on Monday. and we're just creating at will. Like at will, they were creating off the rush against a pretty stout Rangers' defensive team.

Rangers were sloppy, connects were great. I mean, it was hard not to watch that game and think, hey, this might be a team with a contender-level ceiling that certainly I didn't envision them having, you know,

even as recently as a month ago. We got to stick on L.A.S. Pelerson for a second here, because one, that goal you scored against New York Rangers, the other, like that. out of this world. Dude, crazy. Two, he's a pending RFA. He's going to be in need of a new contract.

A comparable can be made with him and William Nealander, who just signed an extension of his own in Toronto. Is that a fair comparison? Do you think Elias Pedersen is looking at William Neelander and saying, I want that money? Well, I don't think so because I think Pedersen's dynamic is tied up entirely into, you know, when he's ready, right? This isn't really a dollars and cents question.

The fact is that Pedersen has outscored Nylander over the balance of their careers. He's younger and he plays a premium position. You know, Neelander at eight times 11.5. Like for me, that's an absolute floor for what Pedersen's next contract looks like. Should he decide to go max term? You know, the dynamic really shaping this is when is Petterson going to be willing to sort of get down to brass tax and discuss a deal more seriously? He said before the season he wanted to wait until the.

end of the year, despite, you know, occasional insider rumblings that there was optimism or that things might be evolving, you know, doesn't seem like there's any evidence that it has. Pedersen remains patient and, and ultimately the outcome here is going to be determined by his timeline. You know, the fact is, like, Neelander is a comparable. All these players who are really high-end star-level producers, I think are comparables whose deals somewhat influence all the other deals around them. But, you know, again, I don't see the case for Pedersen to get a penny less, right? Like this is a floor type deal in terms of how it might impact Pedersen's, you know,

valuation on his third contract. Yeah, that connects core all of a sudden looks pretty good, right? With Elias Patterson and I want to talk a little bit about Quinn Hughes for a second because again, last night, a Monday night, Madison Square Garden. It's Adam Fox who's won a Norse trophy. It's Quinn Hughes, who's hoping to win a Norris trophy. And I know I saw you tweet on Monday about Hughes and Fox. And I want to give you a platform to kind of maybe talk a little bit about why Quinn Hughes should be mentioned in that same stratosphere as the Adam Foxes of the world.

Yeah. I mean, look, I think Quinn Hughes is one of the most impactful players, period, in the NHL. Certainly one of the most impactful defensemen. I just don't see many players in any position that influence the environment of the game as much as Hughes does whenever he's on the ice. And those that do are the best of the best. This is a rare player. This is a guy who just absolutely dictates the flow and pace of where games are played whenever he steps on the ice sheet. And I thought he was on his game.

Only one assist, no shots on goal. Like the box score won't tell you the extent to which he was the maestro that sort of coordinated a pretty lopsided victory for the Canucks last night. in Manhattan. And this is part for the course. Now, you know, the comparison with Fox isn't super fair this year. Fox is coming off a major injury. He's having a down year. I mean, this is a Norris caliber guy in his own right.

I just think, you know, honestly, I've long felt that Quinn Hughes's level of gravity, the influence that he has on the game, like far outpaces Fox. Fox has the accolades. He's had more team success. But, you know, I don't think there's any question, which player is rarer, which player is more impactful. I think it's Quinn Hughes with a bullet. And I think it has been for a while.

It's not about this season. You know, I think like you say, the Canucks Corps suddenly looks really good. I mean, Pedersen Hughes in particular have looked like superstars for a while. This team just had so many like areas where they were leaking, you know, that it was hard for that to matter in terms of them driving results. You go look at the Canucks last year, for example. And with Quinn Hughes on the ice, they were outscoring their opponents. at a rate comparable to what Vegas did.

Anytime Quinn Hughes was getting a breather on the bench, they were getting outscored at a rate comparable to what Anaheim did. I mean, that's the sort of influence that he's had over a multi-year period here. And, you know, this season has come together. The club has a little more depth. They're not giving as much easy stuff away, both structurally, and in terms of what they look like with depth pieces on the ice. And, you know, it's coming together.

You're beginning to see partly because of things outside his control. you know, exactly how good this guy is. It's starting to matter in terms of the wins call. Quick follow up here. Where should we rank Quinn Hughes and our player tiers next season? Well, among defensemen, I think it's McCar and then I think it's Quinn. I don't know, I don't know the argument against that. I mean, you know, like, I think you have to get pretty into the weeds with things like,

well, he's always had a bigger impact on shot attempt differential than, and expected goals. They're like, you really have to get to a pretty, uh, sort of nebish, you know, like, um, wearing your Seiko quartz watch and your, and your pocket calculator area of the conversation to, to get to the arguments against Quinn Hughes. I, you know, I, he's a top three defensemen in the league. There's no doubt about it.

But this is simple. This is simple. Okay. Um, we know the, sorry, Dom. Sorry, Dom. No. I was trying to not. Get to a point where anyway.

We're less than two months away from the NHL trade deadline. I think it's pretty safe to assume that the conduct should be buying at the deadline. But do we know anything about what their plans might be? And also Andre Kuzbenko, that's a name that's been kind of palmed around as possible trade bait these last few months. Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see how the Canucks navigate the deadline on a variety of fronts. You know, I think there's been an internal desire to upgrade the top six forward group. But does that change? Does that change now that Pedersen Miller and Besser are having success and a lot of it?

At least in a small two-game sample to this point, as sort of a loaded top line. Does that mean that the club might prefer to get a second-line center as opposed to a top six-winger or potential top-six winger? I think this club would like to be bigger up front. You know, Rick Dollywall and I sort of were told over the weekend to watch for names like Jordan Greenway. Jake Gensel would be a bigger target if the Pittsburgh Penguins can't keep up. in their own Eastern Conference wildcard race. So, you know, those are both wingers. And we were sort of told this before this lotto line came back together and started

riding the way they have, at least since the club arrived in the Metro, New York area, you know, 72 hours ago. So does that change their priority list? I certainly think they'd love to add some size up front. I think they'd love to add some depth on the back end, maybe even an impact depth player and a right-handed shooter in particular on the back end. so back end, excuse me. So, you know, I do think this team has needs,

but in a world where you're going to stick with, and Rick Talkets remains deeply non-committal about this, but in a world where they're going to stick with this Miller, Patterson, Besser, first line, that might sort of focus or alter this club's priority list and really shine a light on the need for a second line center. Now, good luck. Every team in the NHL that fancies themselves as a contender

would love to add a second line center. I mean, that's that's sort of the prize of prizes at the NHL trade deadline. So we'll see where that one goes. But, you know, I do think the, I do think the club's position, you know, they've got this Oliver Ekman-Larsen buyout costs that's going to go up, climb up in the years ahead. You've got Pedersen expiring and do a massive raise. You've got Philip Hironic expiring. He's got arbitration rights.

He's getting a massive race, period, based off of his production and minutes and impact on this team's results. And, you know, you've got some players like J.T. Miller who are crucial to what this team's done this year, who are, you know, 30 plus getting older. So, you know, is there a moment where this all sort of crests around, you know, not a one year window given the age of Vancouver's best players, but like a one year opportunity where things have come together and structurally you might be best positioned to take your best shot now. Yeah, I could see that for sure. Not to mention, I'm sure. sure the organization's desire to reward a marketplace that hasn't, you know, had an opportunity to buy playoff tickets since 2015. So, you know, don't ignore those business realities either from a Canucks perspective in shaping how they'll approach, you know, the next six weeks leading

up to March 12th. Cusmanco, in and out of the lineup of late, he's played well, actually, since being separated from Pedersen being put on the second line with Pew Souter and Ilya McKayev. But, you know, he was scratched five the last 20 games and he's making five and a half and it hasn't been easy for him. And he clearly doesn't have a ton of trust yet with head coach Rick Talkett. You know, my understanding, based on some work we did, some reporting we did over the weekend, both sides are still in the let's try and make this work phase on this situation. There's certainly been no trade request. There's still a desire to make it all work. But, you know, as I talk about Canucks shopping priority lists ahead of the deadline,

I mean, they are going to have to move salary out or end up with a guy on LTI if they're going to make a bigger swing happen. You know, a guy who hasn't even been a lineup regular over the past quarter of the season, making 5.5, you know, that there are some salary matching considerations that I sort of wonder about,

especially given that, you know, he's a pretty unique offensive talent and might sort of help the Canucks, juice any return, right? Like it might be a positive value part of any trade they could potentially make. So that's sort of a structural factor I'm monitoring. But in terms of the relationship side, everyone still bought in. Everyone still wants this to work out as a first option. Well, I'll tell you what, Thomas Trance, before we let you go, it's great to get the catch up on the Vancouver Canucks.

Can't help but notice. Now, you appear to be in a hotel room, right? Yes. Okay. Are you in Manhattan? or where are you? Yeah, I'm in Manhattan. I'm going to, I've got radio today, uh, 3 to 5 p.m. Eastern time and then I'm going to take the F to Jamaica and grab an Uber to Belmont. So hopefully I make it for warmups, but we'll see.

And my question is, where are you coming? It sure looks like you're coming to us live from what appears to be possibly, what part of your hotel room are you at here? Oh, I'm at like the desk. part. But it's one of those, you know, like small Soho hotel rooms. It looks like a boutique hotel. It's a, it's a boutiquey hotel. Yeah. It's nice. It looks very nice.

And that's it, that's an insider trip for people that ever, even if you're a fan, if you're going to do Rangers Islanders or even Rangers Devils back to back, try and just stay in Manhattan. Oh yeah. And try and stay in Manhattan downtown, like well downtown, town where it's relatively easy to get out to Newark on the path or through Penn. And likewise, I mean, it used to be even easier when you just had to go to Brooklyn. But, but yeah, no, I mean, you stay in lower Manhattan. And this is the best for like beat writers covering Western conference teams, right? I mean, the Canucks will spend, you know, six, seven days in New York, all told, playing

three games over that stretch with Neri a flight, you know, in sight for me. I mean, that's as good a trip as it gets in our business. So it's been awesome. And this little boutiquey hotel has done its job very well. It's been a nice time in New York. And the Canucks have been fun to cover this week for sure. We're going to have to trade some notes on Manhattan's days. I've never done the Manhattan excursion as a beat reporter.

So you'll be hearing from me, Dranser. Yeah, no, happy to help. I'll send you to all the best red sauce places too. I hope you like pasta and pizza. Oh, yes, sir. Yes, sir. Hopefully I've left you some. My goodness.

Awesome stuff. We'll enjoy the rest of your time in New York. Safe travels and thanks for doing this. Anytime, gentlemen. Cheers. All right. There goes Thomas Drance covering, like I said, the wagon that is the Van Hoover Connect.

Julian, let's wrap up the show. Well, also want to remind or I shouldn't say remind, alert our listeners. So if you hit us up through Spotify, you can actually answer or pull question. We asked this on the Monday edition. We could have asked, I mean, Drenz kind of gave us a great background there on Vancouver, but we said, you know, year over year, January 23 to January 24, who's the biggest surprise team in the NHL for you? Winnipeg, Vancouver, Philadelphia. If you hit us up

through Spotify, you can actually answer that question as a listener. So we'd love to get your take on that and we can maybe share those poll results here in, uh, in an upcoming episode of the Athletic Hockey Show. We also love to hear from you, The Athletic Hockey Show at gmail.com. Fill up our mailbag if you have any questions about the trade that went down today, talking with Drans, talking with Rousseau, anything that we hit on, the idea of abolishing the draft.

Hit us up, The Athletic Hockey Show at gmail.com. I do want to wrap up. We were talking about Dom's model for the awards. And there's a couple of things that you're, I'm with you on, like Sidney Crosby not being on there is, okay. Like I think it's noticeable. Totally noticeable. The other one that I know you wanted to hit on maybe a little bit.

And then I want to talk about Jack Adams real quick. The Selke Award. Yeah. Best defense. Now, again, this is Dom's model. So it really obviously skews heavy on the numbers, the underlying numbers, the analytics, all that stuff. I was shocked to see the number one name on that list. I think you were too. Yeah. Here's a thing. As someone who was in Montreal and got to watch the beginning of this

person's career, I'm not surprised that they're getting better and better from a defensive standpoint. I just didn't expect that the ratings would give them this much respect, at least in Dom's eyes. For the Selke, right now, if you go on that NHL Awards watch post, Nick Suzuki has the best defensive rating, according to Dom's model. So better than a Sam Reinhardt, who's having himself a fantastic year. Jordan Stalls on that list. Alexander Barkov is on that list. Anze Kopitar further down on that list, like seventh best in terms of a defensive rating.

But Nick Suzuki, for those who love to follow Dom in his tweets, and there's this one post he had about contracts that won't age well. There was a time when a lot of people were coming at Dom because he, thought Nick Suzuki's contract would not age well. I wonder how Canadian fans will feel today waking up and seeing Nick Suzuki rank as high as he does on the Salky rating. There's another one I want to get to. And I'm a bit surprised about this too, but I'm also, you know, I'll give Jacob Markstrom

his props. So according to Dom's model, Jacob Markstrom's second best in terms of goals is, I'm trying to remember to think if it's the, I want to make sure I get the acronym right here. the GSAA, right? The GSAA, the goal save above expected metric here. And Connor Hellbuck being number one, that makes sense. That makes sense. Camp Talbot on that list.

But Jacob Barksstrom, he's actually been, especially these last few games, he's been good. He's been solid. There was a time last year where he was not reliable, and the running joke with him was that he would allow the first goal at almost every point. But he has been the exact opposite of that. And if this team was a little bit better, maybe you could make a genuine case for him to be at least considered for the Vezina.

I don't know how strong that case looks now, especially with so many other good goalies playing well this year. But it's fascinating to see Jacob Markstrom on that list. Yeah. And in Dom's model, the top three goalies all play for Canadian teams. Connor Hellebock 1, Jacob Marksson 2, Thatcher Demko, 3. Now, one thing that Dom doesn't have, and this one's, Julian, this is always a tough one. to vote or figure out how to vote on the Jack Adams Award because there aren't

underlying numbers. I mean, you could look at the team's underlying numbers, but there's nothing that can specifically, like a metric that says, you know, this coach is worth X amount of wins. Like if John Cooper was coaching in Buffalo, do we know that they would be better? Like, there's nothing tangible, right? A lot of it is based on feel and gut and whatnot when it comes with the Jack Adams. as we hit the halfway point of this season, I'm going to throw a couple names at you here.

Julian, I'm going to throw a couple of names at you for potential Jack Adams Award winners. And, you know, what I think is interesting is that we had the poll question on Monday about the big surprise teams, and it's no surprise that the coaches for all three of those teams that we mentioned happen to be on this list.

I'm going to throw at you. So if you were voting for the Jack Adams Award. Best coach of the year at the halfway point of the season. There's Rick Tocke in Vancouver. Thomas Stranches gave us a great kind of snapshot of where the connects are at. I think there needs to be John Totorella as Philadelphia is punching well above their weight and well beyond expectations. Rick bonus, you know, remember last year at the end of the year when Rick bonus and it was always like, I'm too old for this bleep. Like it was almost like This guy's done, and all he's done has come back.

And he also had to leave the team briefly to go be with his wife who wasn't doing well. And the Jets kind of rallied around him. And he's been great. They've been great. The other name I'll throw in there too. They're not in a playoff spot right now, but they've been hanging around. And that's Spencer Carverie in Washington. The capitals are kind of a bit of a surprise.

So those are the names I'm thinking of. If I gave you a vote, Julian, and by the way, I believe on the, the Jack Adams Award, it's the broadcasters that do that one. Yeah, it's the broadcasters. So that's like the play-by-play kind of radio and television broadcasters, they vote on it. But I'm going to give you a vote at the halfway point. Who gets it for you? I think you got to give it to Rick Tocke.

I mean, I think the fact that the Vancouver Canucks are doing as well as they're doing. And Rick Tocke, he gets that time to implement his tactics, his strategy, his way of thinking is the what he demands from this team, that can't go unnoticed, but also brick bonus too, right? Like, that's a really unique story with the Winnipeg Jets and them being the best team in hockey.

Like, wow, I just, I have to say those two teams have really surprised me right at the top, considering what they went through last year. The Winnipeg Jets, I remember yesterday we were talking about this in terms of teams that surprised us, and I was mentioning the timing of, say,

if we were asking this question in January, in 2023. There was a point where the Winnipeg Jets were the best team in Canada and they fell off a cliff. And the fact that Rick Bonas has been able to bring them back up to the top, that can't be overlooked. And Rick Talkett too. I mean, he comes over halfway through last year and he really gets them to a point that nobody expected for this team while having so many great players. And I also wonder if that plays into his candidacy for Jack Adams. So I would like to give a vote to one of those two guys, but I do like John Tortorella and Spencer Carberry being mentioned. I still think there was a point when John Cooper for Jack Adams made sense.

I'm not sure if that still carries the same way compared to some of those other players, some of those other players in this race. But I think right now if out of vote, I'd be deciding between Rick Tocke and Rick Bonas right now. Yeah. You know, it's funny. You know what's interesting is that you can argue that the three top candidates that we mentioned bonus pocket torterella if there is a little connective tissue amongst them it's that they're

kind of old school right like torturella for sure talk it i think for sure and we just talked about bonus last year kind of going off like it's kind of interesting right we're at this point where we kind of think that the only way or the best way to communicate with young athletes is you need a a true communicator less of a disciplinarian. But I would argue that as we're doing this exercise, it's kind of funny. It's not lost on me. And I think you always have to strike a balance,

but it's not lost on me that the three top candidates all seem to be the type that we would put in the disciplinarian bucket or a little bit more of the old school bucket, right? I guess, but I have to assume that they have to, I don't think you can get by in this league by just being this hardcore disciplinarian and not like, you know, kind of throw the carrot out to your players.

There's a balance there, right? We hear all this time, we give a lot of guff to John Tortorella about how he handles us in the media and how he comes across as a curmudgeon sometimes, but he loves being in that locker room. He loves being around his players and he loves seeing them do well. And while he demands a lot out of his players, I get the sense from him that he generally loves them and he wants to see them do well.

And I think he will give them a break if it comes time for that. but of course you have to play well. Rick Tockeet, I think that Vancouver Connect's team, they needed some kind of structure, and I think he was good at implementing that, but Rick Tockeet may also have that balance too. And Rick Bones as well, I mean, it's funny we're thinking about some of these teams

that have those old school guys, but I think this probably applies to Winnipeg too. That's an older core, right? That just might work for them to have that type of style leading them with some of those older players leading them. It's not a new, fresh young team, bunch of Gen Z, Gen Alpha guys on the team. We're talking about guys like Connor Hellebuck

and Mark Schifley in their 30s leading this team. It's a very, and I think it works with Rick Bowness. Yeah, no, excellent, excellent point. All right, we'll leave the Tuesday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show there. So we're going to wrap up recording here. I want you to make a prediction. Monday when we wrapped up recording,

we had a massive trade. What are we going to get between now and the Wednesday, episode of the podcast, which by the way, will come your way early in the afternoon on, I think we're shooting for a one o'clock Eastern time going live with Down Goes Brown and Shana Goldman.

Between now and then, what's the story? Is there something big coming? Okay, so the big story, I think I'm kind of going off of what sort of makes sense considering this past weekend's events, but I'll add an extra element to it.

We're going to learn, I mean, I'm just guessing off this point. I can be totally wrong. I'm not in the market. I think the story for Wednesday will be Connor Bedard's injury diagnosis and how long he'll be out and how long we're going to have to, and if his All-Star candidacy will be in doubt. And I have a weird feeling considering what jaw injuries are like. It probably already was. I feel this is just a guess. I think that's just going to be the story. And Wednesday we're going to be talking about how there's such a missed opportunity

with him not being there, which also tracks because I believe Thursday's the last possible day, fans can vote in the 12 extra skaters for this year's All-Star game. Okay. I think based on what Mike Russo said, the thing that we're going to be talking about late on Tuesday in the Wednesday is Kevin Cruz's story with more details on Cutter Goce's departure. Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

Maybe. Maybe. But we'll see. It's going to be a lot of fun between now and then because we learned on Monday the new cycle, it never stops around here. So we want to thank everybody for listening to Julian and I on the Tuesday edition of the pod. As I mentioned on Wednesday, Sean McAdoo, now goes proud. Chita Gold, drop by joining us here on the Athletic Hockey Show.

Please leave us a five-star rating and review. You can follow us on YouTube as well at YouTube.com slash at the Athletic Hockey Show. Right now you get one-year subscription to the Athletic for $2 a month. Visit athletic.com slash hockey show.