The Athletic Hockey Show - Daniel Negreanu talks Vegas Golden Knights, World Series of Poker, fantasy hockey, and more, Kirill Kaprizov returns to Minnesota, Michigan head coach Mel Pearson accusations, and more

Episode Date: August 3, 2022

First, Rob, Jesse, and Sara discuss John Klingberg’s 1-year, $7 million deal with the Anaheim Ducks, Kirill Kaprizov’s return to the United States from Russia on Monday after previously being denied entry to the US via Dubai last month, interesting takeaways from Jesse’s article calculating the biggest changes in Stanley Cup betting lines since free agency, Katie Strang’s report on Michigan men’s hockey coach Mel Pearson being accused of berating staff, misleading recruits, and retaliating against former team captain Strauss Mann, Patrick Marleau’s Hall of Fame credentials, and more.Plus, professional poker player and avid hockey fan Daniel Negreanu joins the show to talk about the World Series of Poker, his grievances against Vegas Golden Knights GM Kelly McCrimmon, Bruce Cassidy as the team’s next head coach, his incredibly competitive fantasy hockey league, and much more.Now, you can get a 6 month subscription to The Athletic for just $1 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

What's going on, everybody. Welcome to the Athletic Hockey Show, the Wednesday Roundtable Edition in August. Yes, there's no hockey going on, but there's always hockey to talk about with myself. Rob Pizzo from CBC Sports, Sarah Sivian, who's still in Boston. How are you, Sarah? What's up, guys? I'm great. How are you?

Did you just have your mic off? How many of these shows have we done? It's chaos in my house right now. I wish you could understand. And Jesse Granger in Vegas, whose mic is hopefully on. Mike on. I believe it is. Two professionals I'm working with here, guys. We've got a lot of stuff we're going to go through over the next, you know, 45 minutes or so.

But I should tell people, as I'm sure they know, this show was pre-taped. And we just finished an interview with someone you probably know from the poker felt, Daniel Nogranu. But if you know him, you know he's a huge hockey fan and a very passionate hockey fan, specifically when it comes to the Golden Knights. We're going to play that in the second half of the show. Trust me on this one, you don't want to miss it. He's not the biggest Kelly McCriman fan, is you guys?

Oh, they're best friends. What do you mean? He's got a few things to say about the general manager of the Vegas Golden Knights. So don't miss out on that one. But we got some things to talk about a topic we've been talking about since the trade deadline guys, John Klingberg, finally has a place to play hockey next season. that's not surprising maybe the terms are one-year deal with the duck seven million bucks he made no bones about it guys he wanted a long-term deal couldn't get it so now he's got one

year to prove he gets it uh your thoughts on this deal jesse will start with you yeah i mean i to be honest i feel bad for john clingberg and as bad as i can feel for someone who just signed a seven million dollar contract um he it just seems like he's been dealing with this and the stars were like kind of on the verge of going to trade him. Are they not for the last year plus? It just seems like he has been really trying to find a place to like cement himself and just settle down and play hockey. And even after all that year of trade talks and it never happening and then you hit UFA and it's like, okay, well now he's going to get to. He still doesn't get the long term deal. He has to settle for this one year deal. Even if he does play well, who knows if he's going to get the deal in

Anaheim or if he's going to have to go elsewhere to get it, I just feel like this point. This poor guy has been playing really good hockey and can't seem to get paid for it. And it's partially the salary cap not going up and they're not being enough room to go around for guys. I think we're seeing that with Cadry too. But yeah, I mean, my thoughts are like, I'm rooting for Clingberg to have a big year and finally get a deal that he deserves because this is, it's really strange to see a guy like that sign of one one year deal. Sarah, what do you think? Like, why don't you just bring back Josh Manson, but I get it. It's like a carousal. I guess that's kind of why the short term thing. I guess it makes sense for the docs, but I don't know. I feel the same as you.

He was the top D-Man available in this free agent market. And like how often do you, you know, you always look at the, you know, the top forward available, the top defenseman and the top goalie. They're going to get their deals. And I'm with you, Jesse. Like I just kind of thought, oh, man, now he's got it. It's almost that proving thing all over again for one season. One more year of discourse. Like, yeah. I never thought we talked this much about John Klingberg. Right. Like we are the three of us are going to be talking about John Klingberg next season again. Yeah, when the trade deadline comes around, if Anaheim's not in the playoff picture, you know he's going to be one of the top names that gets thrown out there with with with this being an expiring deal. Like it's it's never ending for this guy. And like I feel like there's something to having things settled and just being able to play hockey. And he has not had that for a very long time. So you know what? Since we're going to talk about him so much next year, let's move on to the next topic. Um, Carrel Capri Soh, this, this is such a wild, I was going to say a wild situation, which is kind of funny. Yeah, but on boom, back in the U.S., let me quickly run down in case people don't know this story.

He was in Russia to have off-season surgery, and it's the off-season. He wanted to see his friends and family. And he had long had a military exemption. In Russia, you need to do a year in the military by a certain time in your life. but that military exemption had expired on June 30th. There were reports out there that he had purchased a fake military card way back in 2017 and was using that. Those reports have been kind of widely refuted. But he was denied entry into the U.S. last month by way of Dubai.

And then he got permission to finally leave. And the wild convinced him, don't wait for training camp. Get your butt over here because obviously this all stems from the ongoing situation with Russia. Ukraine. If you want to read a lot more about this whole situation, go to Michael Russo and Dan Robson speaks from July 1st talking about Russian stars leaving. Guys, this is really an interesting story because GMs can't tell people what to do in the off season, but a lot of them, and you read it in the piece, a lot of them were trying to strongly suggest, don't go to Russia because we don't know if you're going to be able to come back. This is, this almost seems like a James Bond

a movie, doesn't it? Like, it just doesn't seem like real life, but this is something the GMs are now fearing. Sarah? No, seriously, it's like what we were talking about, which we'll get to in our later interview about kind of how even the draft strategy was affected by this. Like, people didn't take Russian

players until the later rounds, and it's like it's kind of scary. It is kind of like a movie or something like that. I just don't even know what to make of it. I'm sure NHLGMs have had to learn a lot about foreign policy now. It's terrifying. And it's like, sometimes I think we forget that this is just hockey.

Like, it's just a game. And it's just, it's a sport that we really like watching. But we get so into it that it's like life and death with the NHL. And then you realize like, oh, man, this guy, this, this hockey player is in Russia? Like, is he going to end up at a naval, like, military camp, like, imprisoned there. Like, when the story first came out and the Flyers goalie prospect, he was like, there were reports that he was maybe getting like held hostage at a, like, like, there are a lot of things. there are a lot of things wrong with the U.S., but when things like this happen, it's like, to me, I take a step back and it's like, whoa, like there are way bigger issues

in this world than playing in the NHL. And if this guy's going to score enough goals, like, man, it's absolutely terrifying. And it, like I said, to me, when I, when this thing first came out, it really just put things into perspective for me, like, wow, this guy, will he even be able to come back to the U.S. and play hockey? Luckily, he is back and it looks like things are going to be smooth from here. but it's, yeah, terrifying. The false reports just are very irresponsible.

I just worry about that too. You know, for me, obviously, you know, we're dealing with players being able to leave their own country to make money elsewhere, everything else. And you're right, it is terrifying, Jesse. For me, and this came up a lot when Alexander Ovechkin was, you know, not necessarily coming out and condemning the invasion of Ukraine, um, they've got families there.

I couldn't imagine being on the other side of the play. in it. My friends and family are all back in this in this place and you're fearing for their lives and you're fearing for, uh, retribution there. And that's, that's the situation where, you know, a lot of these players are going over. And of course they want to go over. You can't tell a player, don't go see your friends and family in the off season. Um, but could we see situations where they're denied, we saw him denied, you know, being able to come to the States once already. He's now back, but who knows when it comes to friends and family. And I think, yeah, NHL's in kind of a weird situation. And, and, and, you know, Russel and Robbson kind of touch on this.

You know, they condemned the invasion, but they didn't ban Russians the way some other, you know, leagues did. Then they said, well, the NHL's not going to allow the Stanley Cup to go to Russia, but we want to make them feel comfortable. I mean, they're kind of in a precarious situation, too, aren't they? Jesse? Yeah. I mean, it's, I guess basketball has become more global, but it's still not on the level of hockey where it's like one out of every three guys is like from outside North America. It feels like,

and a lot of them are from Russia. It's, I don't know. To me, it's such a, I remember having this conversation back when it first happened and it was like, I don't know what to do.

Like, I'm not smart enough to figure out how to handle this because at one side, it's like these sanctions on Russia as a country are, like, there's good reason for it. Like, and I totally understand the reasoning of if we throw all these sanctions on,

maybe it can, it can stop, them from invading and doing horrible, horrible things that are way more important than hockey. But at the same time, it's like, wait a minute, are we going to punish this hockey player just because of where he was born? That seems nonsensical. So it's a really, really tough spot. Right. You look at Brittany Griner, too. We're speaking about basketball. We've got an imprisoned American athlete in Russia. It's a whole foreign policy thing that if the NHL knew what to do, I think that maybe their pay grade would be a little bit higher. So I feel like they're taking

instruction from the U.S. government as they probably should. They're going to have to wait and see now because we just don't know there are a lot of Russians that play in the National Oki League. Some of them are still there. And, you know, in the piece they talk about a couple of anonymous GMs just basically saying, telling them, we need runway in case there are snags. Like don't wait until the last minute and say, oh, I'm going to board a plane because you might not, you know, be heading over. So this is one of those stories. Like I said, we're going to have to wait and see. One story, we don't have to wait and Jesse's piece. You teased it on our last show, Jesse.

I said you were speaking my language. Stanley Cup odds. You broke it down how teams, their odds to win the Stanley Cup, fluctuated because this offseason, as we know, as we know, is three people who host a hockey podcast, has been a lot of fun. The one line that really jumped out to me, he said, since the abs won the cup,

352 contracts were signed, 25 trades, nearly a third of the league has a new coach, not to mention Gudrogo and Columbus, Kachuk traded to Florida for Huberto and goalies flying all over the place, which means the odds are going to change. What did you find out? Yeah, it was, to be honest, it was a little surprising because I think some teams that, like, it was fun. The day after that story came out, I went on with, on the Thursday show with Mendez and Down Goes Brown. And I had to- You have other shows. Wow, you're cheating on us? Yeah. Oh, I am just, come on.

All right. I tried to get them to guess which teams were, like, the most. most improved in odds and which teams hurt their odds the most. And like my favorite one is Toronto Maple Leafs because down goes Brown nailed it that they were on the list. But he thought that they'd be on the list of the teams whose odds got the word, like who that hurt their odds the most when in fact, the Leafs odds went up the fourth most of any team in the league. And like, it's it's tough to to do this analysis because we're so trained of like, okay, the Leafs, okay, what roster moves happened that made these odds change. But that's not a always what it is. It's sometimes money influences the odds. Public money, where the money's going. And

it's, to me, it's fascinating that the odds makers, I doubt the odds makers improve the Leafs odds based on them getting Matt Murray. I just, I cannot bring myself to believe that there would be odds makers that's stupid. So it tells me that the only way that that means there's been money, public money on the Leafs, which is insanity to me. But it's Toronto. It's a, it's a, it's a probably one of the craziest hockey markets in, in the world. So maybe they're just. pouring the money in on maybe obey Cubell and Callie Yarncroke are really swinging the needle in Toronto. But I was, to me, that was like when you asked me like, what's my number one takeaway? It's like, the Leafs stunned me that they were one of the teams that improved their odds the most.

Maybe it's just that a lot of their core didn't change. Like sometimes there's value in things not changing for the worst, I guess. That's also true. And another point towards that is some of their competition got worse. Boston and Tampa Bay are both in near the bottom of the the league in terms of their odds getting worse. And Tampa Bay is still like the fourth best odds. So it's not like they like fell off the map. But Tampa Bay lost some guys. They had to trade some guys because of their cap. They got worse. And obviously Boston, people are predicting them to kind of take a step back with all the injuries and the turnover and the coaching change. So I, that's a good point, Sarah. I think the, the Atlantic is probably the toughest division in hockey. And I think it might have

gotten a little bit worse, which could help the Leafs. But at the same time, they haven't had an issue in the regular season. It's been the postseason that's, that's, that's, that's, It's been the problem, so I don't know if I'd be betting futures on the Leafs right now. Guys, let me speak from my expertise here. I was born and raised in and around Toronto. My entire 42 years on this planet have been spent surrounded by Leaf fans. Some of them are nice guys and women. Not all of them are the most intelligent people in the world.

They will bet on their team no matter what. And there are a lot of Leaf fans, not just in Toronto, outside Toronto. Public money there, Jesse. see, that's what I think. So you got the top three teams. Florida, that was a bit of a surprise as well. Their odds getting better. Colorado and Ottawa, too.

Ottawa has been busy in the offseason. Yeah, I think Ottawa made a lot of sense. I think everybody kind of likes Ottawa's offseason. I haven't spoken to somebody that doesn't like what they've done up there, adding to a team that looked like it was kind of starting to turn the corner with some young pieces. The Florida and Calgary thing is interesting because obviously Calgary traded away Kachuk to Florida.

And Calgary had their odds got, had the biggest change in. terms of going the wrong direction and Florida's went the right direction, you look at the return on it and it's like you could argue that Calgary actually got more this season. Calgary got better for this season. Yeah. To me, to me what that is an indication of is when there's a blockbuster move just waiting to happen and the whole world is kind of like, where's Matthew Kachuk going to go? And everybody in the world is like trying to predict it. I think the second that trade happens and Kachuk goes somewhere, the odds makers say, you know what? The money's going to pour in on that team.

Let's raise those odds a little bit. Give these people not as good of odds as they're going to get because they're going to bet it regardless. Anyone who sees Kachako into Florida, they're saying, you know what? They don't even look at the number. They're going to bet it regardless. Yeah. Change the odds a little bit. Shift them.

And then when you do that, you shift them a little bit. You have to shift somewhere else. So Calgary's the they kind of got, like I said, I think if you're looking to bet it, maybe there's some value in Calgary because they're, they're overestimating the public's kind of perception of that trade. I feel like we're talking stocks here with these teams. You know, it's just everybody's changing numbers and those numbers will change by midseason. They'll change right before the Stanley Cup playoffs too and we'll talk about it then. Changing gears quite a bit here.

Not sure if you guys saw Katie Strang's piece on Mel Pearson, the head coach of the University of Michigan's men's hockey team. He's been accused of a lot. He's been accused of telling players to provide false information on COVID contact tracing forms. He's been accused of misleading recruits on how much scholarship money they would receive. He's been accused of some anti-Semitic slurs, call one of his players a Jew. And he's been accused of not holding their team's director of hockey operations accountable for conduct. They called, quote, mistreatment of female staff members.

Now, this is according to an anonymous survey, as well as an investigation by a company called Wilmer Hale. And it all really started with their team captain Strauss Mann, according to the investigation, tried to address the culture. and tried to address everything that was negative about Michigan. And according to the report, Pearson forced him to leave the program. I read this piece, guys, and, you know, great work is always by Katie Strang. But, man, like, are we not going to get to the point where we realize that this style and this, everything is just, it's not going to fly in 2022?

Sarah, I know you want to talk about this. I'll let you go first. I was oddly, like, in a very roundabout way, encouraged by this because it said Steve, Shields, NHLR of 10 years, went to report it, and then he got terminated too. And then it's like people are coming clean instead of ignoring it and letting it be kind of the next person's issue, right? And they had to leave the program for it. But I was encouraged that there are kind of whistleblowers among us, I guess. And I thought it was interesting because Jack LaFontaine was a goalie at Michigan, and he left to go to Minnesota. Then he left Minnesota to go to the

Keynes. It was a kind of bizarre situation, but it was in the middle of COVID and everything like that. And people had questioned a lot why he left Michigan, and that was under Mel Pearson. And Jason Mazzati, the Kane's goalie coach, gave me a comment about this. And he said, there's a lot of people pissed at Jack, but all these college coaches, it's like, cry me a river, how about we talk about what these college coaches are doing to kids in hockey? They overcomit. A lot of schools have seven spots and offer 14 kids. Then they just weed them out. They'll cut a bunch of guys for no reason. So this has been kind of an issue out in the open that hopefully they finally address.

I totally agree with Sarah that there's some encouraging signs that people tried to step up and say something. But to me, what this show, like, whether it was the Blackhawks thing or whatever scandal you want to look at, there's been, unfortunately, way too many of them in hockey. I think a lot of people blame players or people that were involved and say, well, how come you didn't say something? how come you didn't do anything. I think this right here is a perfect example of sometimes the people in power are so empowered that it doesn't matter what you do. A guy like Strauss Man can step up and say something.

Gone. Another guy says something. Gone. Get out of here. And it just continues. So I think while we should encourage people to be whistleblowers, I think faulting the people at the bottom of the totem pole is totally the wrong way of looking at it. And this just shows you why because it takes people.

in power to make change. You can't rely on the people that this is happening to, the people that are being affected by this to step up and have change because the people in power will just get rid of them like that. It's so easy for people to sit on their high horse and say, why didn't this 18 year old kid do this, this, this and this? Why didn't this 18 year old kid put his complete career on the line for this? I get it, guys. We've all seen things, especially when when you're that young and have so much to lose. Like you said, dead, you know, the team captain is trying to change the culture and he's shipped out in seconds. I don't, I, when people blame the victims, it, it angers me in ways that I can't even put into words

because I just, I remember when I was in high school, who are the most influential people in your life? You're friends. Like, and people you're around, you can't ask sometimes. And the, the, the, the kids that do, all the power to them for being much more mature than I ever was, uh, when I was at a So yeah, I'm with you. You just blaming the victim is the wrong way to go about it. Coach is having so much power over a player's career that he could do all of this

and it takes this long to get brought to the attention of the public is where the problem really lies. And to further that, not just not just the victims, but like I think blaming the victims, I think everybody kind of, it's obvious that that's the wrong thing. But I've seen a lot of people blaming like bystanders that maybe they're not the victim, but they also aren't doing anything. It's like, well, how come you didn't say anything? It's like it's a lot more difficult when you're in that situation with the amount of power that these people have than I think a lot of people give them credit for.

And everyone just saw the captain get canned. And good for that guy. Like, I wish him the best. Who knows what's next for him? But obviously he's brave and is going to have a successful life with leadership like that. He was the right captain, right? I mean, Jesus. Good for him.

It's just kind of like another day, another scandal. But I keep reminding myself that these scandals have. happen regardless of if I know about them and it's good that they're being brought to the light. Yep. Great, great point. And another great piece by Katie Strang, make sure to go give that a read. Before we go to break, got to ask you about Patrick Marlowe. I know we talked last week about Dustin Brown getting a statue and people on Twitter kind of lost

their minds a little bit, but we'll ignore that and go to Patrick Marlowe. He's going to have his number 12 retired by the San Jose Sharks. Of course, the NHL's all-time leader in games played, played parts of 21 season. seasons with the sharks. No statue that I can see of guys going to be put up for Patrick Marlowe. But I know Ian Mendez and Julie McKenzie were talking about this. And I wanted your opinions before we go to break. Is Patrick Marlowe a Hall of Famer? Sarah, I will start with you. Yes. He is the NHL's all-time leader in games played. I feel like that seals it for me. I know we talk about what constitutes a Hall of Famer. But for me, it's the book of hockey, right?

from start to finish a story I'd tell my kids about hockey, and I'd put Patrick Marlowe in that book. That's a great way of putting it. You know what? I kind of was wavering, and Sarah sold me, Hall of Fame. Put me on the committee. Part of the reason I was wavering is because, and I think Rob has actually said this on this podcast also,

but I feel like to be a Hall of Famer, you have to be one of the very best at your position at some point in your career, for the majority of your career in most cases. and Marlowe definitely wasn't that. Like, there's no argument that he was never that. He wasn't even close to that. But I think there is something to longevity.

And having the most games played means that you were one of the 23 best players, one of the 20 best players on your team for that long. And to do it for that long is very difficult. Pretty much no one can. So I think for the most part, I don't like guys that, like, have added stats over their career because they've just played so long. and like they weren't elite at any point. But if you're the best guy to ever do that,

you get a pass and you get into the Hall of Fame. You mentioned Rob said this on the podcast. People are going to call me broke a record because I've said this over and over and over again as well. This Hall of Fame, he is 100% a Hall of Famer. Okay, he's played more games than I do when he broke a Gordy Howe record. That alone should, you know, put you in. If we were ever to wipe the slate clean and make the Hall of Fame,

what I believe should be the Hall of Fame, as Jesse said, like the best of the best of the best, no, he's not a Hall of Famer. But if you take a look at the list of a lot of people who are in the Hall of Fame, and people always think I'm slamming specific people in their personalities. I'm not. I'm just saying I think the Hall of Fame should be this like Mount Olympus of the greatest players ever. That's not Patrick Marlowe.

This Hall of Fame, Patrick Marlowe is in. So I guess we're unanimous. And that's what 1779 games will do for you. After the break, a very passionate Daniel Negrenno will join us to talk of Vegas. us golden nights. So don't go anywhere. Okay, well, most of you probably know our next guest as one of the most famous and entertaining and successful poker players of all time. But if you do follow him on any form of social media or TV or radio or anything, you know he's a hockey nerd just like us. Daniel O'Grano joining us on the athletic hockey show. Daniel,

thanks so much for doing this. Absolutely. And I'll accept the description. Hockey Nerd is applicable, accurate, and I'll own it. Absolutely. owned it every single week. We're going to talk a lot of hockey, but I do want to quickly touch on, you know, the World Series just wrapped up. You and I have known each other a long time. I covered poker. I watch your vlogs every single day. I love them. But as you mentioned many times during the vlog, wasn't exactly the World Series you would have liked, but one line really jumped out to me when you said, well, now that the World Series is over, I can focus on hockey. Does it feel good to get one thing out of the way so you can start focusing on the NHL? Yeah, no, it really

really does. I mean, I didn't have the World Series that I would hope to, but much like, you know, Gold Knights manager, I'm just going to blame injuries. Because, you know, my hand and everything, right? We're going to start out there. It was injuries. You know, it wasn't my fault. So I lost $1.1.1. But I had the best team available. I was supposed to win all the bracelets, but it didn't happen. But no, in all seriousness, August is my favorite month because it's when I, like, dive through the prospect, you know, study that I do for my fantasy hockey league. And this year, because of the way the world championships fell, you know, it was canceled because of COVID, you know, just in a couple of the couple of

days here. We're going to have, you know, junior hockey to watch, which is fun. You are a hockey nerd just like us. And you know, it's interesting. One of the vlogs and the reason we got you on is because of that general manager, I don't know, who are you, were you talking about someone specific there, Mr. Kelly McCrimman? You went on a fun rant and it was so passionate. And then suddenly I started seeing Jesse's tweets coming on the screen. And I texted Jesse. I said, Daniel McGregner was ranting right now and he's using your tweets as visual aid. We got to get him on the show. So for people, maybe who aren't poker fans, they're just hockey nerds. Fill us in, Daniel. What exactly is your

beef with some of the moves we've seen from Kelly McCrimmon? Okay. So there's a, I mean, I could, I can rant for about 87 minutes, but we're going to try to keep it to 60 seconds. First and foremost, if I had a credit card, I might loan Jesse the credit card. I might loan you. I might even give it to Sarah. I would not give Kelly McCriman my credit card because I know it's going to come back with 87 things I don't need. I'm going to come back completely broke with no idea how to pay for it and have to mortgage everything. Okay. So, you know, bottom line is this. I think like overall there was way too much tinkering that happened. And there was some bad decisions that led to some decisions that became necessary. You know, one of the first ones that I thought was really,

really dumb and set a bad precedent was, and I like Robin Lainer. I like Mark Andre Flore. This is nothing about them specifically. But at the deadline, you had some room where you could make this team a little bit better for the playoffs, right? And you got Flurry in net. So you spend that $5 million on Lainer. Okay, what you've just guaranteed now is in the playoffs. Everybody else is playing with a cap of, say, 80 million. You're not. You're not. Because every single game in the playoffs,

you've got either five or seven million on the bench. Because you can't use two goalies. Typically, you just use one. And then obviously that started a big problem of like, you know, some maybe some deceit or some, you know, it actually caused some friction within the fan base, really. Because you have people that are flurry fans, and then all of a sudden they hate land.

Like, this didn't need to happen. you know, it didn't need to happen. And it was a miss, the biggest thing that they've done is they've misspent cap, right? I look at the recent deal with Patch Ready. And here's the thing. So you gave away Patch Ready for nothing. And actually, you kind of had to, I think, because if I had a choice as a GM, right, you give me $7 million in cap space. Would I spend that on Patcher Ready right now? Absolutely not. There's no chance that I would do that, right? Because there's $7 million could be spent other places. So that had to happen. But the reason that it happens is because Kelly McCrimmon plays, poker with his cards face up.

Every other team in the league knows exactly the situation you're in. So you have no leverage. You can't win any deals. Carolina can step back and go, hey, watch this. They're probably smoking a circle. Watch this. I'm going to get it for future considerations, bro. Future considerations. And then I got the perfect tweet,

Carolina Hurricanes tweet, to really stick it to these guys and make them the embarrassments of the league, because that's what they deserve. So. Vegas had to sweeten the deal on that one, too. Believe it or not, like. Yeah, not only. future considerations, but you know what? You got any other prospects?

You want to throw me? Oh, but why did Mark Andre 4 won the Vezina? Okay, best season. Okay, so you know what? We'll take him over here in Chicago, but guess what you get? You get a guy that's never even going to come play for you because he sucks. You get absolutely nothing.

It's like, how many deals in a row can you make where you give away a, you know, prime, lovable, you know, core part of the city for nothing and have the fan base go, oh, okay, that makes sense. You know, nobody gets it because it doesn't make sense. sense. Daniel, I love the, I love the poker reference. And that's kind of where I was going with this, is like, I think a lot of these moves, and I think you agree with me, you can understand the moves, the Eichel trade, the signing Petrangelo, but it feels to me like they did the, the order of them was wrong. If you would have tried to trade Patcheretti back before you traded for Jack Eichol and were

10 million over the cap, you're probably getting a great return because you don't have to trade him. But like you mentioned, the cards are up. Everyone can see what you're doing. Once you've put yourself in that cat predicament, to me, that's the issue that I have. I mean, some of the, I've had issues with the deals. I thought they should have stayed with Flurry. But to me, it's the order in which they're doing these things is putting them in bad positions. Sounds like you agree.

Totally agree. And there's another example of that right here where you talk about Flurie and Lainer, right? So you have a $7 million goalie and a $5 million goalie, right? You don't have them both signed. You got Flurry signed for two more years. The moment you sign Lainer, every other team goes, they just screwed themselves. They just screwed themselves because now, you know,

Kelly McCriman and George McPhee must have been just, you know, in their own arrogance thinking they'd get a deal. Oh, we'll move one. They couldn't move anyone. Nobody wanted, you know, nobody wanted to pay anything for it. So ultimately they had to give away Flurry for nothing. But had they, like, as you said, maybe before they signed Lainer to the deal,

had to move in place for Flurry, right? Now you have leverage. But once you back yourself into this corner, or where every other team knows you're up against the cap, they're not going to help you. They're not going to do you any favors. Let me see what I can do for you, bro. I'll send you some future considerations.

It makes the Carolina Hurricanes even more lovable to me, or more lovable than they already were. Because, like, I mean, I love that team. I got Aho on my fantasy team, had Trocheck, had to move them. But it's just, it's awesome how they handled this. And for them, I can see how adding a patch already makes some sense. I wouldn't have done it.

But the fact that they, you know, got cogling in the deal, too, again, they still win the deal. You mentioned the injuries, and that was obviously a huge, huge part of last season. And part of it's legitimate. Like this team, Mark Stone is the captain. He's the best player on the team. He barely played.

And when he did, he didn't look himself. But at the same time, they seem to be just kind of sweeping it under the rug and just saying this season never happened. And things will be better next year. And to me, my question is, are the injuries a product of you built an aging roster full of players that are bound to get hurt eventually,

or was it just really bad luck? I guess how do you view it? What do you view going into the season? How likely do you think they are to stay healthy and reach the potential of the team that they think they can be? Yeah, no, you hit it on the, you really nailed it there because in one sense, you actually traded for a player that was injured.

So you had potentially tuck in Krebs, which Krebs would have played all season, and then you would have talked. So maybe that first three, four months, you would have been in the playoff hunt, had you not made that deal and you weren't really in a position to do so. But yeah, you look at the core of the team and where you're spending the money, right?

Mark Stone was a sixth round draft pick. And the number one reason for that, skating. He wasn't exactly an elite skater. Well, now he's got a back problem. Do you really think at $9.5 million this is going to be worth it for a guy who's probably not going to be as fast as he was? And that's not saying much. I think that deal is going to look ugly.

And then you look at just the way that the team is made up, right? You look at Toronto. You look at Tampa. Toronto, for example, you know, three guys making $30-something million. But those guys are, you know, Matthews, Marner, Tavares. We've got 30 million spent two years from now on Patrangelo, Ikel, who's probably worth it, and Stone, which is going to be an aging contract. You've also got William Carlson at $6 million, which, you know, arguably is a little bit high there.

So when it comes to money spent, you've spent it in the wrong places, and the idea that this team is going to be good or like a Stanley Cup contender is a pipe dream. Because you have no bottom six. You don't even have, I read your piece today, Jess, you don't even have wa signed. He may walk, right? So your bottom six depth is already going to be hurt. Now you're hoping that Stone and everybody else is going to stay healthy and kumbaya and everything's going to be fine. And I mean, it's a stretch.

And I just think that they've put themselves, they've destroyed a really good thing. And the biggest thing that hurts me the most is, you know, other cities, see Vegas fans as spoiled, right? Because we were. I mean, listen, we got a team to go to the Stanley Cup finals the first year, right? And then when the fans start turning on the team, they're going to think it's because of losing. But that's not why. It's not.

I was happy to have a team every, you know, in the first year, be like Seattle. Hey, good boys. Look at that. You scored a goal. You only lost six to one. Bravo. I love to see that development. Now I look at Seattle and they got Maddie Baneers and they've got, you know,

Shane Wright in the pipeline. Like they're developing something. Where's Vegas going right now, right? I'll bet anybody wants this right now. You want to give me 10, you want to give me a price? I'll take Seattle to win a cup before Vegas right now. now, absolutely. And while that may not be the reason you see fans maybe turn away, it's definitely a contributor though, isn't it, Daniel? Because selling to a new market with an

expansion team is always difficult. Winning right out of the gate helps it a lot. And you got to wonder about some of those fair weather hockey fans who fell in love with hockey because everything's great and everything's rosy and everything's fantastic. Suddenly you go on a situation where you're not even a contender for many years. We've been hearing hockey will never work in Vegas. That was proven wrong, but losing doesn't help. No, and you know what? If the NBA comes and the Raiders are there, all of a sudden there's competition, right? So people get to choose where they spend their dollar. In that first year, here's what happened. This city fell in love, not just with the team, but the players

on that team and the coach who led them. This was like pop. You know, that's our, that's grandpa. Gerard Galant, everybody will like run through a wall for this guy, right? He takes you to the finals the first year. You get that ugly defeat in the second season to San Jose. Season three, he's the All-Star game coach for the best record. They have four-game losing streak, and you cut his head off, right? Then you literally go through the list of what, who sells the most jerseys? All right, let's trade him. You know, you go through the list from Flurry to Reeves to everybody, and you do it unceremoniously, right?

And what they don't see is they have this cushy situation right now, but as things turn, and like I said, if the NBA, which I think will come to Las Vegas and maybe baseball too, people are so fed up with buying a New Jersey and then seeing that guy move. And listen, the word gets around the league. People are here, and wait a minute. So Nate Schmidt signed a six, seven-year deal, and they shipped them in the year one. Tuck signed a seven-year, gave them a discount because of the no-tax situation. They shipped them just like that.

So there is no sense of loyalty here. And we've become, and it's deserved, the evil empire of the NHL. At this point, they might just will embrace it. They are the evil empire. Like, nobody outside of Vegas who still goes to the games. And most people, or a lot of people in Vegas are fed up like this team. or not the team itself, the players, but the organization and the way that they do business. The roster turnover reputation is definitely coming about, but at the same time, they did hire

Bruce Cassidy in a week of when he was fired, and I loved that move. I'm interested in your thoughts on that. So when I heard about the Bruce Cassidy move, to be completely honest with you, I was sort of pretty, I was kind of apathetic about it, didn't have a strong opinion either way. I was very happy to see DeBoer go because I thought DeBoer was the wrong coach for this team. DeBoer's the kind of guy who's like, okay, this is what I want my team to do without the personnel. He wants his team to play like they have Brett Burns and Eric Carlson, you know, and have the defense pinch and, you know, sort of formulate the team around that. But that's not the team he was given, right? So he turned the team into a much more like slower possession game and absolutely destroyed the power play.

Frankly, I didn't think Patcheretti, I don't think overall he was a bonus. He scored a lot of goals in the power play, but I thought he, I thought a lot of power plays like died on his stick. So anyway, back to the coaching thing. I was happy to see, you know, DeBurgo, from what I'm hearing from Bruce Cassidy, I like what I'm hearing, talking about, you know, he's a goalie-friendly coach. And a guy like Robin Lainer in a system like that, I mean, when he was with the Islander, he's supposed to do to 930, guys. 9-30, you know, with the Islanders.

This guy has played on bad teams, on good teams, but its same percentage has always been right around 9-20. So you give him a defense that's going to, you know, gobble up those rebounds or help him in front. I think that you could see, like, you know, again, depends on health with Robin Lainer. But overall, I like what I hear from Boost Cassidy. He might be the right guy to coach this team. I'm not sure we'll have to see. My only concern would be, well, you know,

he sort of coached a team like this in Boston where they were a one-line team. And the way Vegas is built now, they're not that season one, four-line team that comes at you in waves. They can't be because we don't have really a third and a fourth line that can do that. So they're now looking a lot more like that Boston Bruins team

where they're going to have to depend on an Ikel-led, you know, top line. So, you know, it seems like a team that Bruce Casson knows how to coach, and we'll see how it goes. But I mean, I have no ill wheel towards Bruce. I have no opinion on him yet. We'll see. To transition away from the Golden Knights, you mentioned your fantasy hockey league, and I have talked to you a few times about this, and I feel like everyone out there needs to know about this fantasy hockey league, because it's one of the most fascinating things. Can you just give a brief overview of how this league works and how different it is? from just the average one that most people are signing up on Yahoo or ESPN.

Oh, yeah, it's not the same as anything like that. This league was built in 1996 with 20 guys, 20 teams, and literally in the last probably 12 years, we've been having no turnover whatsoever. Like people, everybody wants in this league, but they can't get in. So essentially what we do is we have a salary cap, 23 men roster, three sets of goalies, and 20 man farm system. And salaries that are dictated based on, you know, how players do. in their contract year.

So you can sign players. We used to have up to five years. Now you can sign three-year deals, except you get a franchise player. I signed Mr. Jack Hughes to 15 years. He's going to be with me till he's 35. Sebastian Aho, he's my guy, still got him for another three more. And it's a head-to-head type league where every night there's six or more hockey games.

You post the lineup of six forwards, four defensemen, and a goaltending team. I think the mistake that a lot of fantasy hockey makes with goalies is you know, getting a goalie instead of the team. It's a lot more easy for the casual fan to say, I'm playing Tampa Bay goalies tonight, rather than like who's playing and have to do all that extra work. So in our league, you get three sets. Last year I had the Islanders, the Vegas Golden Knights,

and I had the Calgary Flames, which was my third set, you know, my third set that ended up being my best set. You know, there are three kinds of fantasy players, I always find the ones who just don't play fantasy, the casual fans, and then people like Daniel. Because I was watching your vlog when you said, you said a line. And remember, the three of us cover hockey for a living. You said, well, you know, I recorded the draft and I'm going to watch it after the World Series has done.

The research that you put into your team, it feels like that's as much of a full-time job as your poker career. In August, I'm not kidding. I'm not kidding. In August, I will spend probably eight hours a day going through this draft. I'm like still on the first round, which is silly because I don't have a pick till number 27, but I still like to know what's coming into the league. But I need some diamonds in the rough because I've got like the 73rd overall pick and I'm guessing it's going to be a Russian. Because in this year's draft,

one thing that you saw was I think a lot of teams going, I don't know what's going on in Russia, you know, with the situation and whatnot. So I think some of the, so I think if you look at typically, you know, you look at a draft and you're like, okay, this is the best players in order based on who's the best. That's not the case this year because a lot of guys are,

a lot of teams are looking at like, okay, we like this guy, but, you know, are we going to have problems down the road with them because of the situation? So I like to take flyers. So my team may have a very Russian twist to it, you know, at the draft this year. That's going to be a lot of Keynes players then. The Keynes picked all those Russians up. At what age are you drafting these guys?

Like, is it their draft eligible year for the NHL is when you also draft them into your fantasy league? So we used to have a rule where you could draft anybody. So I scouted a kid named Jace Hauerloff, who I scouted him when he was eight years old. Scout it. Scouted. You had a four-house career. In the Brantford League, he was eight years old. He broke Gretzky's records in the Brantford League, right? So he ended up getting drafted in the second round when he was, you know, 18 by the Philadelphia Flyers.

I traded for him because I wanted him on my team. And then he came to Vegas a couple times and we've hung out and we've become good friends since. He just signed a deal with Ottawa right now, you know, to sort of be like a bottom six guy there, you know, an energy guy. And, you know, he's a fun guy. So we used to have that rule. But the problem was. Guys like Sidney Crosby and John Tavares were like they were drafted when they were 14 in our league, 14 years old. So we found that it was actually unfair to the teams like Malkin went when he was 16.

It was unfair to the bat, to the worst teams because we do a lottery just like anything else, right? If you're the worst team, you know, you pick the top guy. But when you let, you know, the 17th pick overall go to like a 14-year-old, you know, you lose out. And then, you know, the top picks are not there. So we changed our rules years ago where now they have to be 18-year-old to be drafted. Funny thing is all this about his hockey draft And you run one of the biggest World Series of poker fantasy drafts as well

That one's 25K right How big is your hockey one? Can you tell us what the entry fee is for this? So the hockey one, if you win everything, first price and everything, it won't cover my flight to Toronto to do the draft. It's a $60 buy-in and it's not about the money.

$60 buy in a game, just for the love of the game here. And within our draft, so I'm a nerd with all this stuff. I love it. Within our draft, I created leagues within the league. Okay?

So we did, because every Tuesday night, there's usually six games on the schedule. We did a Survivor night. So basically there's 20 teams. The lowest scoring team, out every week until there's one remaining. I did a Champions League where each season, because we have four divisions,

and they're not exactly equal, we have a Champions League where you get promoted or delegated. And those happen on, you know, you know, deep game. So we do a whole bunch of fun stuff within the league. I tried actual Survivor one year, where, you know, like the actual game,

but these guys are children and they couldn't handle the voting aspect and they got so upset with each other. I'm like, oh, he voted me out. It's a game, bro. So you have to get rid of that because people were actually like friendships were being lost over the lives. Over a $60 pool. I can't believe it's $60.

That's the best thing I've ever heard in my life. Daniel, what's on the horizon? The World Series is done. I know you've got a lot of hockey work to do, but what's the next couple months look like for you? So the World Series is very taxing for me. You know, I spend six, seven weeks every day, as you see on my YouTube channel, I do the daily vlog, and it is a grind, you know, 10, 12, 14 hours a day, a lot of disappointment and a little

bit of, you know, success here and there. So I need to unwind. Like, I usually gain about 10 pounds during the World Series, and they're not good pounds. That's not like, it doesn't increase, they're not muscle. That's like a lot of cookies and cream and whatever. So after World Series, I just got to get back in shape and really focus on, frankly, you know, on the hockey. But the next event that I'll be playing is,

what's called the Poker Masters, which is a spinoff of what you see in golf. And that'll happen in late September, followed by the Super High Roller Bowl. And yeah, but the brunt of my play is the World Series of poker and the rest is hockey. And it's a lot of fun to watch

even when you are a danger to society with your selfie sticks, Daniel. And if anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about, go watch the vlog. I'm honestly surprised that Sarah was willing to, you know, just be on this interview. Because I don't know if you know, Sarah, but I took a selfie six and I threw it on the floor, right?

Not anywhere near. And so there was a guy in poker who thought that somehow me throwing that selfie stick made it unsafe space for women to play poker. So hopefully you feel safe enough here through the computer screen. I'm pretty tough. I can hand in, I think. I think. Glad to hear it. Love to see it because I know you were thinking about auctioning that thing off.

That thing might get a few bucks to be able to pay for your entry fee. Daniel, thanks so much for doing this. Like I said, I know a lot of people think of you as a poker guy, but we love getting you on for hockey. We'll talk to you soon. good luck. All right, have a good one, guys. Big thanks again to Daniel O'Grano for coming on. I bet a lot of people didn't know he's that passionate of a hockey fan.

Raps up another show, guys. Last week, Sarah, you said you weren't doing much. What do you got on Dallas? Oh, I wish you could all see her face right now. I'm playing guilty. I'm playing guilty. I think. Make it up.

Say you're doing, you're researching something. The new Hall of Fame. That's what I'm researching. No, I think I'm going to have to take a retroactive. time off. I'd like to have the last week off because I did nothing. Jesse, what are you working on? So as everyone just heard with Daniel, people in Vegas are not super thrilled with the way

things are going. So I decided that I'm going to do a fan survey this week. So I'm going to put out 10, 15 questions asking fans in Vegas the confidence level in the coaching staff, the new coaching staff, confidence level in Kelly McCriman and George McPhee. what they think about the way this team has changed because it has changed quite a bit. So hopefully they're as passionate as Daniel Negronner was

and that'll be a fun piece. I can't wait to read it. I can't wait to read Sarah. Oh, Sarah's taking the week off. Okay, guys, we'll see you next week. I want to let everybody out there know as I do each and every week. I know I'm a broken record, but I'm going to say, follow us on your favorite podcast platform.

Don't forget, be a rating and review. You can subscribe to the Athletic Audio Plus on Apple Podcast to get all your bonus content from the entire network. You start with a 30-day free trial, and it's just 99 cents a month after that. And right now, you get an annual subscription to The Athletic for just a buck a month for six months when you visit Theathletic.com slash hockey show. We will be back next week. So for Jesse, for Sarah, I'm Rob. See you then.