The Athletic Hockey Show - Dave Hakstol, Seattle Kraken head coach. Making sense of the Chicago sexual assault investigation with Katie Strang and Rick Westhead. Surprises with NHL awards

Episode Date: June 30, 2021

Scott and Pierre welcome Dave Hakstol, the head coach of the Seattle Kraken to chat about his excitement in joining the NHL's 32nd team, and lessons learned from his first turn as a head coach in the NHL, in Philadelphia.Investigative reporters Katie Strang from the Athletic and Rick Westhead from TSN and CTV join Burnside and Lebrun to try to make sense of the sexual assault investigation involving a former player and the Chicago Blackhawks organization.Scott and Pierre discuss some of the surprise winners of the NHL awards, wonder if an offer-sheet could be in Cale Makar's future, they break down the contracts for Ryan Nugent-Hopkins and Wayne Simmonds and they look at the time line for the NHL's involvement at the 2022 Winter Olympics. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey, everybody. Scott Burnside here for another edition of Two Man Advantage, the podcast, part of the Athletic Hockey Show Network, soon to take over the world. I love that. Pierre LeBrun, what a, we have a banner day on Two Man Advantage. It's so excited. We're going to hear from Dave Haxstall, new head coach of the Seattle Cracken, and our good friend, Katie Strang, along with Rick Westhead, who's your colleague at TSN slash CTV News. They're going to drop by and we're going to talk about what is I think maybe the biggest story in sports right now, which is the allegations that two Chicago Blackhawks were sexually assaulted during the 2009, 2010 season and how video coach Brad Aldrich went on and was convicted of sexual assault after that and how the Blackhawks responded and how now the NHL is responding to that. So we're going to hear from Katie and Rick. It's going to be a big day here.

And we've got so much to talk about the awards for last night. But like what was your overall take? Are you watching at home? I can't remember. Were you in the studio? I don't think you were. But what was your response to the awards overall? I kind of like the very brief, punchy half hour show in and out.

What did you make of it? I didn't watch a single minute of it, I have to admit. but just on the awards themselves, I was surprised Andreelos Seleski didn't win to Vesna. Now, super happy for Mark Andre Fleur because it's such a compelling story, and it's his first Vesna and maybe the nicest guy live and deserving of it. I had a great year, but the GMs vote on it. I just, I'm surprised, I mean, the NHLPA just had their poll when Vasselowski was named their top goalie.

I'm surprised the GMs didn't feel the story. same way. Like to me, I don't think it's really questionable at this point. The best cool thing in the world is. So that one surprised me and I was surprised only mildly by Adam Fox winning the Norris. I have no problem with him winning. I think I had him second on my ballot, but I had Victor Headman at one. Certainly could have had Kail McCar there. Two, Fox, McCar, Edmund, all a really good choices. But I think, I guess, I guess I thought it would hurt Fox more than it did that that he wasn't on a playoff team as all. Yeah. super, super talent and good for him.

But traditionally, when the writers vote, the playoff thing has been a factor. And it clearly wasn't this time. Yeah, I wonder, do you think that's just a function of, Jeff and I were talking about just before we started recording? And I, you know, it was a hard year. I found, I found it really difficult because even, and I know you're doing this as a matter of course as well. But when you talk to, I talked to a GM and we were talking about, we were talking about the, rookie of the year. And, you know, at that point, Carol Kappersov, Caprisov, had really outdistanced Robertson from Dallas. But we were talking about, and he said, you know, he says, you probably

see more of those kids than I do, because I only see the seven teams in my division. I don't know what else, you know, like that's who I'm watching. Those are the only ones I see. Yeah, it made it a tough year that way. And even, you know, when I, as you remember, I polled all 31 head coaches for the Norris, just out of curiosity for a piece I wrote in early May. And, you know, some of the coaches said just that, that they, you know, they hadn't seen everyone like they would have liked to see. But they also wasn't close. Victor Hedman won that poll in a landslide when it came to all 31 head coaches. And all 31 voted in my poll.

So again, interesting that they had coaches who run the bench on the NHL teams had it differently than the PhD. way, but that's fine. I mean, I don't think this is not the year to get into social media fights on the awards because again, I'm so weird with the teams playing in their own divisions. So I certainly was going to be Zen-like, regardless of who won. But certainly Vasile not winning the Vezna and to me had been not winning the Norris were mild surprises, but nothing that I'm going to get worked out. Yeah, me too. And it's interesting. I talked to a an NHL goalie and analyst about Fleury winning, and I admitted my surprise as well that it wasn't Vasilewski. He wondered if it's a Tampa Bay Lightning Award fatigue that, you know, like they, anyway, he just threw that.

It wasn't a criticism. You know, I was going to tweet this and I didn't. I don't know why it was multitasking at the time. But, you know, Lou Lamarillo, you know, winning GM of the year, Mark Bergevin was run around correct in the voting. that was announced, I think, last week or the week before. You know, pretty interesting to me, Julian Breezebo wasn't even nominated. And again, this award is voted on by GMs, by their peers. And it crossed my mind whether there are some GMs who didn't like the whole Coucheraw-L-T.

Yes, good point. And when that was being held against Julian Breezeboe in that voting. So I don't know that. No one has said that to me. But, you know, Bill Zito was the third finalist for GM of the year. And again, I got no problem with that. I mean, phenomenal first year in South Florida for Bill Zito. But normally, you know, I have to go back and look at it because they vote after the second round, which I think is ridiculous.

But anyway, because they vote after the second round, it's 90% of the time, the three finalists are from the final four. Yeah. So they went out of their way. It seems like not to, now, then again, Kelly McCriman was a nominee either, I guess. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Interesting. I want to ask you a quick question about the Golden Knights and about Flurry and, you know, I'm curious.

I'm curious about a lot of teams. You and I've talked about this with Colorado. What, you know, what do they happen? You're just a curious thing. And actually, I was reading your Rumblings blog this morning, very well done as usual. I was surprised. you basically guaranteed an offer sheet for Kail Makar, right? Do I read that correctly? No, I am, I wrote about it, but by the end of the portion on it, you can tell, I'm still asking the question.

Are we actually going to see this? But I have to write about it because it's come to my attention from a couple of league sources that this is being batted around as a possibility. I'm still dubious on it. But then again, I never saw the Montreal Sebastian Ava offer sheet coming either. that completely blinds something. But I think the point that was made to me this week by a couple of league sources was, if you're ever going to go ahead and deal with the aggravation and the wrath of an offer sheet, a 22-year-old Norris trophy runner up might just be worth it.

And obviously, that's the point here with Cal McCart. As I wrote, and I talked about this on insider trading last night, I mean, the avalanche are really smart for an office. They are cognizant of all this. They understand that there might be a team out there lying in the weeds willing to do something stupid come July 28th. And they're ready for it. And by being ready for it, I think it means they're going to do all they can to obviously come to an agreement with McCar before that can even happen. But number two, even if it happens, they have contingency plans in place.

I think they would obviously match. who questioned they would match any offer sheet, but it means they may have to trade player, X player, who knows, right? Yeah. And actually, I started talking about the Golden Knights

and then I veered because I had read your piece with interest, but I think of Colorado and Vegas in kind of the same way, in that, you know, two teams that are really built to win now, and both teams, you know, saw their playoff runs come to a very disappointing end.

And I'm curious what you make of, because I am going to go back to the Vegas situation. And Mark, I mean, such a great story, as you point out. But like, if you're Kelly McCrimmon and it, you know, can you go another year paying your goaltenders $12 million? And, you know, we, we know that Alec Martinez, who I thought with, I know he played with a broken foot. I thought he was outstanding all year for Vegas. What a great ad by the Golden Knights. But he's UFA and he's the kind of guy with his experience, two times Stanley Cup winner in L.A. You know, teams are going to want him. But I assume Vegas. will want to keep them as well. But my point is, can you get better? Can you address in Vegas a gaping hole down the middle that I think cost in that series against Montreal? And I know lots of discussion, could they take a run at Jack Eichol, all those things.

But you can't do, in my mind, you can't do any of that if you're paying your goaltenders $12 million. I don't see how you can, I don't see how you can fill other holes or even keep a guy like Alec Martinez if you've got $12 million tied up in your goaltending, which leads me to, you know, what. we've heard Mark Andre Fleury trade rumors in the past, as recently his last off season, could he return to Pittsburgh, all those things. I'm just curious what you make of that. I really don't think you can have that much money tied up in gold dengue value year,

but it's really hard because Mark Andre Fleury has such a sentimental value, never mind the fact he just won the Vesna Trophy to Vegas. Robin Leonard, you know, signed there for a reason. They committed to him, and he's a very good gold denny. So how do you, it's clear that Fleury is the one on his last year that that's probably where you're looking. But I don't know that it's that easy.

It's not just about hockey. So, yeah, really fascinating to me. And again, Flurry was some no trade protection. He has a say in all this. Going to be fascinating to me for sure because that would be a huge loss in Alec Martinez. And again, this is a team that, you know, that the salary cap this year was frozen. It's going to be frozen again. And it's a team that when they had injuries this year couldn't ice a full lineup because they're so tight against the cap.

So pretty big decisions coming for Vegas. And certainly, you know, as they decompress and analyze how they lost to Montreal, are they good enough at center? Well, I don't. They are. You know, are they good enough at center. Yeah, I don't think they are. I mean, I think, yes. But it's obviously a question they must be asking internally, you know, George McVee and Kelly McCrimman and the rest.

Okay, and if the answer is no, then how do you get better? And what kinds of hard decisions get made? I mean, we're talking about, you know, Colorado, we'll have to make hard decisions. Vegas is going to have to make hard decisions. It's, it is the function of the world we live in in this flat cap era for the next two or three years. That's, that's a reality. Yeah. And I mean, and I think as an organization, too, if you're, if you're Vegas, you don't you have to, don't you have to really ask.

Or I give the opportunity to Cody Glass 22 years old. You know, I think same draft classes as Nick Suzuki, right? Who the Vegas also drafted. But, you know, Cody Glass probably needs a deep look here. You've got to know if he can be a top two center. I think he can, but I don't know for sure. I haven't seen enough evidence yet. But, you know, you drafted him where you did, you know,

six overall in 2017 for a reason. So I think you've got to give Coyne Glass every look here, too, as being part of the solution. Yes, and you are correct. Same draft. Nick Suzuki taken 13th overall by Vegas. Right. Yeah. All right, let's move along here before we talk with Katie and Nick, as promised.

And, of course, Dave Haxoll later in the show. I was, there was a lot of interesting elements to Gary Bettman and Bill Daley and their remote state of the union. And I miss, man, I miss a lot of things. I miss being in Tampa for the final. And, but I miss being, you know, that's sort of a, you know, it's a, it's a, a moment on the calendar, right? I mean, Gary Bettman always does his state of the league address before game one. And it's, I think it's an important, it has been an important moment because it catches you up on the league.

And it allows reporters to ask hard questions about difficult topics. and he was asked about the Chicago investigation, which we'll get to with Katie and Rick. But I was curious about his response and Bill Daly also on the whole Olympic thing. And man, very – I knew you were going to get to that. And it was very – to me, I want to know what you think of it, but to me it was weird because it's not – it's not just can the IOC and the double IHF and the NHLPA and the NHL agree on certain protocols and rules and payment? and the things that have been outstanding, you know, for years, this seemed to take on a like, well, we want to see what's, what's going to be like in Beijing, what's going to happen with Tokyo. And it seems to me they're asking a lot of questions that cannot be answered in the very short window they have to make a decision, which is basically, what, three to four weeks. You have to have to know seeing the schedule.

Well, they've confirmed that the schedule is going to be out before the July 23rd, 24th draft or right around that time. So for practical purposes, that is the deadline for an Olympic decision. So we're down to three weeks. So that's not a lot of time. And now I talked to the NHLPA yesterday as well. There's still hope that this can get done, but even the PA, and this is such an important matter of the players. The players wanted this in the CBA.

They got it in the CBA. And they're going to certainly push to make sure they try and get this over the finish line. So there was still hope, I think, from the PA perspective. of yesterday that despite admitting that it's late the game, that there could still be an Olympic deal. But no guarantee at this point, that's for sure. And, you know, I think if I were to summarize how Bill Daley and Gary Bettman feel about this, it's not that they're generally against Olympic participation. I think they know they've got to go back, that it's best for the game. I don't know that they feel that this is the particular right time to go right now,

where this is still a world affected by COVID. terms of practicality and logistics, the IOC is holding its breadth as to how the Tokyo summer games are going to play out. And so Beijing, it's hard to get the IOC to completely focus on Beijing right now, which has affected, I think, the negotiations to some degree, even though there have been some very deep negotiations with the NHL on this. But there's just some unanswered questions to your point. And one of them is, and I hadn't even thought of this is that I don't know that there's such a thing as getting COVID insurance. And the only reason I bring that up is Bill Daley himself during that news conference talked

about that. That's the first time I've heard that issue. Yeah, exactly. And I made a few calls yesterday. And I was like, well, good luck getting an insurance company to underwrite superstar NHL players who might miss, you know, extended time if they get a, you know, they get COVID. And so it's not just from an individual perspective. an issue, I guess, but also, as someone pointed out to me yesterday, what if all these superstar

players come back in the Olympics and they'll have COVID and they all can't play in the NHL for a month? So there are all these things that I hadn't even thought as a possibility. I think I've now crept into some of the uncertainty in these conversations. And at the end of the day, I still think NHL star players are willing to risk all this because it means that much to them to be able to play for their countries. the Olympics. So, man, am I ever fascinated to see how this ends up? You know, and yes, Olympic participation is in the new CBA. But if you, I went back and I read the language, let there be lawyers, but essentially, and maybe it's semantics, but really what it says is

every effort will be made to negotiate an Olympic deal. Right. Yeah. So by the end of this, if you're the league, you might be able to certainly. claim with some measure of truth that every effort was made. So who knows? We'll see where this goes. Definitely a different sort of, like you said, I mean, the whole idea of COVID insurance and, you know, really wanting to, you know, with the unknown of Tokyo, which is, but if you, if, I guess my question is, like, I don't know, maybe you can't run, it's, to me, it would be easy to run two models, wouldn't it, right? I mean, it's a computer thing.

You run your, you run your schedule. Well, there are, our understanding is. Even though Lee hasn't confirmed this, but we believe there are two schedules that have been created. But the lead does not intend to release two schedules on July 20, whatever, around the draft. They're releasing one. So it doesn't feel like there's much leeway past the draft. I should point out, I reached out to the WHOF as well. Actually, I emailed Renee Fasel directly, the president of the WHF,

but one of his assistants answered back with a statement from René Fasel. that while he agreed it was late in the game that he still held out hope that this could be figured out. So obviously, the HF is directly involved in this, right? I mean, in many ways, it's actually a double HF, spearheading the negotiations with the IOC with the NHL-HLPA being fully informed. So important certainly to know that René Fasel still thinks it's doable. All right. Let's a couple of things just before we take a break and then come back with Katie String and Rick West. Head.

How about Ryan Newton Hopkins? Big New Deal in Edmonton. You know what? Listen. And I thought Mark Spector, our good pal in Edmonton, you know, put it nicely in a, in a tweet or after it came out. Because people, you know, it's a long, that's a long time, right? Eight years is a long time for a guy who was, you know, didn't have a great year. But I thought, you know, again, you have to, everything in context.

But listen, it's hard to get people to commit long term to Edmonton. just is, right? That's, that's just life there. And, and Ryan Nugent Hopkins wants to be an oiler. He's, you know, he's been an oiler for life. And he, I get it now. And it's, you know, the numbers, the cap hit is going to be, um, manageable for the oilers. The term may, they at the end of it may, may, you know, wish it was five or six. But no, though. Yeah. No, they'll, listen, I think this is a really simple analysis for me is that the oilers got a deal. on the AIV, which will help them in their trying to build a championship team right now, but they're going to get burned by the longevity of it. I mean, you're not going to want to be around that deal in the last two or three years. But that's okay. That's life.

If you can win a cup before then, you live with it. And, you know, and for New June Hopkins, you know, don't get too caught up in the AVE. At the end of the day, the totality of the dollar is entering his bank account is what matters. And, and, you know, so it's north of four. 40 million in his bank account, could he have gone the market? And remember, he can't sign eight years anywhere else. He can only sign seven years on the open market. Where does the EV have to be for it to be?

And it can't just be as good, you know, 40 million over seven years. It's got to beat Edmonton. He likes Evanton. So, you know, I think his can't probably made a wise decision that, you know, let's say you need to get, let's make it 45 million on the open market. And seven years is the max term. That's a 6.4 million AEV. He's not getting that.

So, you know, this is where the eighth year matters. Only one team can give it to you. The totality of the dollars is in your bank account. I think the player is happy. And the team kind of hauling good job here in terms of grabbing a manageable AAB from what could have certainly been a higher number. All right. One last thing you want to talk about.

You want to talk about Wayne Simmons, two-year deal? I don't really get that myself in Toronto, but okay. Also, and I talked to... I have no problem with it. I mean, again, I think him and Spets are glue guys, just terrific character player. He still need that around that core. And again, the pressure on his team, do you think the pressure run away after losing the first round of Montreal? Yeah.

The pressure is going to be the first round. the crazier. And so to me, having Spetson Simmons around is to insulate some of that. I got no problem with it. And you and I talked about a lot, but good for Don Granato. Now that formal head coach of the Buffalo Sabres is not interim. And John Vogel and I were talking about yesterday on a headline podcast. But I think it's so critical for that team to have some consistency and some, you know, you got to build a foundation there. And that foundation's been rotten for a long time. And I think this is a big part of it. And good for Don Granato, who is a hell of a guy. So, and I think he's a good coach.

Yeah, very much liked in the coaching community. I think there were a lot of happy faces after that decision was made because of how well liked he is. No, and anything else? Anything else before we take our first break? You got it? No, let's get to it. We got a big podcast out of us here. All right, everybody.

As promised, we are joined now by two of the finest. investigative journalists in in the business. Doesn't matter whether it's sports or not, but a real treat to have our own Katie Strain from the Athletic, of course, joining us. And Rick Westhead of TSN, CTV, and anybody who's followed some of the biggest and most controversial stories in sports and around hockey the last few years will know Rick by name and by sight. Thanks both for coming and hanging out with us today. and talking about one of the biggest stories going on in hockey right now. Thanks for having us on.

Yeah, looking forward to the conversation. No, no, Scott, he said our own Katie Strang. You see, I can say our own Katie Strang and our own requested. That's, well, it's the luckiest guy live. I've got Katie on one hand working for one of my two employers, and I've got requested working for my other employer at TSN. I am beyond well covered by investigative journalists, the best two of the business. That's true.

Well, good point. And let's start. Maybe Rick, can we start with you? And both you and Katie, but certainly you've been covering it for, since it, since it broke really, the story of former Chicago Blackhawks video coordinator, Brad Aldrich. I was with the team when they won the Stanley Cup in 2010. After that, he is a convicted sex offender, convicted of sexual conduct with a teen and a Michigan high school. And since that time, what has been unfolding is the response from the Chicago Blackhawks and more recently from the National Hockey League. We had Gary Bettman, of course, doing his state of the union before the start of the Stanley Cup final. Rick, can you just maybe update us on where we're at with this and specifically as it relates to the Blackhawks response and to the NHL's response? Well, of course, this case has been going on for about six weeks and I've been on it for a while,

but we need to recognize WBEZ as well as Chicago public radio station that actually did break the story of this original lawsuit. And then it was a game of catch up after that. Where are we today? Well, we know that the NHL confirmed yesterday, Gary Bettman confirmed that the Chicago Blackhawks have hired Jenner & Block, a large law firm in Chicago to do an independent investigation. You know, where does it go from here? I'm not sure because he was asked whether, he would make a promise, a pledge that the results of that investigation would be made public.

And paraphrasing him, he said, well, we'll have to see what the results are. I'm not sure if I was the Chicago Blackhawk player, how much faith that would instill in me about participating in a process if I don't know for sure that those results will be out there for everyone to see. Katie, you've covered a lot of these kinds of stories, various institutions, whether it's been university athletic departments or people who work within those kinds of milieu. What have you, what have you been thinking about when you see the response from the Chicago Blackhawks and more recently with Gary Bettman speaking publicly for the first time about the NHL's response?

Is this sort of fit a pattern for you or is what we're seeing here something different than what you've experienced in covering these kinds of stories? Yeah, I think that'll allow me to sort of dovetail with giving some appropriate recognition to Rick's, you know, tenacious work on this case, just to say that, you know, in my experience covering issues of sexual assault and especially, you know, sort of pervasive sexual abuse, sort of the pattern for a reporter is to try to, one, you know, really zero in and hone in on the alleged incident and the alleged perpetrator. perpetrator itself, but then sort of once that element of reporting is established, then you want to peel back the lens, look at the broader context, and really examine with a critical lens the institutions that surround that situation. So if a person was, you know, enabled in any way, if there were disclosures made and not handled appropriately. So in this particular case, I think we are now seen that almost bifurcation of the issue where initially when the lawsuit came out,

people, you know, it was shocking. They're very stunning allegations and people focused on that. But what I think truly was a needle mover and a game changer in this whole reporting process is Rick's piece last week. I believe it was last week. Rick correct me if I'm wrong. But when he detailed a meeting that reportedly happened, where a skills coach, Paul Vincent, took the disclosures of that sexual assault allegation and made the senior leadership group with the Blackhawks aware of those allegations. And according to multiple reports and Paul Vincent going on record himself to detail what happened, that senior leadership group refused to file a police report with the Chicago Police Department,

according to him. And that is why you are seeing now an investigation, not only into these sexual assault allegations themselves, but also the institutions that may have been aware who knew what and when and what they did with that information, which I think are very critical questions that need to be answered right now. And this both for Rick and Katie, but what's the most important thing you guys want to see next year? As this story now feels to be, thanks to the work that you guys have put in it, but it seems to be finally gathering some momentum, I think, that it needs to put pressure. But what's next that you feel is important that has to come out? Well, I think it's like a ball of yarn, right? And we're just pulling on it and pulling on it.

We haven't heard anything from Joel Quenville yet. You know, we have no reason not to believe Mark Bergeman that he didn't know. And what this means is that the senior management of the Blackhawks discussed allegations that two players on their team were sexually assaulted by a member of their own coaching staff. And they decided not to tell, you know, the director of player personnel. And we don't know what the situation is with the head coach. So we need to hear from Joel Quinville. And now, again, that there is not a commitment about making this public. I think that also opens up players to being asked about this.

You know, what does Jonathan Tays think about whether this, clouds that teams run and whether, you know, this organization should make a promise of making the investigation results open. You know, and not to mention all the different procedural moments that we're going to be seeing in the coming months in the courts, once we get to discovery, you know, whose deposition, presumably this is all going to be filed, not presumably, the lawyer for the player told me that this will all be filed in open court. It'll be there for anyone to see unless the Blackhawks file a motion asking that,

you know, some of that information is confidential. So this is going to be something we're going to be talking about for the next, you know, many months. And just piggybacking off of what Rick said, you know, I've had this question kind of a lot asking about this idea of an independent investigation, right? And, you know, inevitably, if it's not a government entity or a publicly funded entity, someone's got to foot the bill, right? And so that does make, you know, any sort of even optics of an independence fraught. And that's, you know, just a reality of this situation. But one of the things, and Rick touched on this, that I think the Blackhawks or the lead could do to help mitigate any sort of concerns or skepticism about the true

independence of this investigation is to pledge to make the findings of this report. public and there is precedent for that happening right in the NFL the wells report was you know made available to the public following deflategate in ohio state the probe into dr richard strouse was made you know available in its entirety that's ohio state's a public institution so that's a little bit different in terms of like the onus of um public disclosure but i certainly think that if it's in the public interest that the NHL could absolutely, you know, pledge to make the findings of the report public. And that would go quite a ways into assuaging any concerns about independence in this particular probe. We also saw that. We also saw that with the NBA, right? When there were

allegations of a toxic culture at the Dallas Mavericks. All you have to do is go on Google and search Dallas Maverick's Toxiculture Report, the report completely, transparently, unredacted, is there for anyone to find. I think all four of us were on Gary Bettman's media call before game one of the Stanley Cup final. He does it every year. It's the state of the union. And he knew, obviously, the questions about the Black Hawk situation and the investigation we're going to be coming. And I'll ask both Katie and Rick, I don't know whether you were surprised. that Gary Batman didn't take the opportunity, maybe to take that step, Katie, that you mentioned, to promise that this independent review, and it's being led by a former federal prosecutor,

that there would be transparency, that people would be able to see the findings and to decide for themselves how things unfolded, who should be held culpable, who knew what, who knew what when, and what decisions were made as a result. to that. It didn't happen that way, and maybe both Rick and Katie can answer that, but are you surprised by that? And maybe the fact that Gary Bettman chose not to take that step, what kind of message does that send? Well, as I was listening to that press conference, and I'd love to kind of answer that question with a question because, you know, Scott, you and Pierre cover the sport on a daily basis. If you were the former Chicago Blackcock player and you were watching that press conference

and believe me, I'm sure that he was, how would you describe Gary Bettman's posture, his, you know, the language that he chose to use, the jokes that he made a few times through the press conference. If you were that player, how would you have felt either of you guys watching that? Yeah, no, I thought it was, well, and listen, And, you know, and I'm not going to speak for Pierre on this, but we have spent a lot of time around the league and there have been a lot of issues that have come up. None may be in exactly this, you know, in this level of severity or in this situation with the team. But Gary Batman is very cautious. He's a lawyer. He rarely tips his hand. He rarely acknowledges, I mean, even before the discussion about the sexual assault and the lawsuit. You know, he preemptively defended officiating during the

playoff. So he's a very cautious person. So I guess maybe I wasn't surprised by that, but I guess, you know, on a personal level, I think it would be disappointing if you were one of the victims of this sexual assault and this had unfolded and you were hoping that the league would take a a prominent role or give assurances that there would be transparency. I can't imagine that there wouldn't be a high level of disappointment at how that unfolded. Right. And, you know, it's the league's job to ensure that it's a safe workplace environment for players to make their living in as a pure base, right? and to me that that's I mean that's got to be incredibly important and it's one of the reasons

I mean Rick you won't mind me sharing this but you texted me yesterday and you asked me and I didn't have really an answer for you at the time whether I knew that the league's new hotline for people to report concerns things that are happening in the organization whether that hotline was operating and that's by the way that's why I asked the question in the news conference yesterday and I thought it was important to do so. But, you know, the idea here is that this can't happen. Like, you know, again, we'll see what the investigation comes up with. But this is serious.

And what these, you know, we have victims here. And if these allegations are proven true, what are the mechanisms in place that this, that this is dealt with in a, and. in a completely different manner, not 11 years later. And to make sure, of course, that it doesn't happen again. I mean, those are some of the broader strokes that keep coming to mind for me. You know, and I think there is, look, everyone knows that Gary Bettman is a very bright and shrewd legal mind, right? and I know that he's, you know, anticipating, you know, litigation in probably trying to thread some needles when he's in a press conference like that and fielding a lot of questions from a lot of different people about a very sensitive topic.

I do, however, think that there is a way to answer questions in a way that, you know, provides some sort of clarity and satisfactory. answers while also showing, you know, a level of humanity and empathy and compassion, not just in this particular incident, but also knowing that, you know, there may have been other people watching yesterday that have endured something similar, you know, in the NHL landscape, in a team setting, or, you know, just fans of the game where it happens entirely outside of that situation. But I do think that there is a very clear way for him to have communicated, that the league does not stand for sexual misconduct, will not tolerate it in any way, and is committed to taking proactive steps to ensure that it doesn't happen in the future,

and that the well-being and safety of not just players, but team employees, staff members, and anyone affiliated with the league is able to work in a healthy, non-toxic work environment. Just picking up on that if I could, guys, you know, I have seen. a few people in media say things like, this can never happen again. We have to have checks in there to protect people. It's going to happen again. It is. You know, we saw in the 1990s in hockey the Graham James scandal play out on the front

page of newspapers and on national television for months on end. And again, I went back and I read a lot of that news coverage, and it was the same thing we're hearing out. We need safety protocols in place so that this never happens. again, it will happen again. Well, what matters now are deeds, not words. And so if you are that Chicago Blackhawk player, if you are the family of that former teenage high school player who was sexually assaulted, you know, who Brad Aldrich was

convicted of sexually assaulting, you're looking, well, how much faith can I have in the NHL? Let's ask a key value. It's been a year and a half since the NHL promised to, you know, conduct an investigation, looking into the racial abuse that he suffered and the allegations of career derailment. A year and a half, where are we today? Are we any closer? It's a great point.

I'm really, I'm glad Pierre, that you asked the question about the hotline and even I'd actually electronically raised my hand to try and get a follow-up because it's still not clear even though it sounds like in the recent, fairly recent past that that hotline has been established so that staff and players around the NHL can. can have a safe place to go to raise concerns about workplace safety, as Katie alluded to, on a number of different levels. It's still unclear how many calls are coming in, how many investigations have been initiated as a result of that hotline being in place. So that would be interesting to know.

But I'm curious what you think. We're talking about the Chicago Blackhawks. It's an iconic franchise at the time of Brad Aldrich. which we mentioned, he was part of that 2010 Stanley Cup winning team when two players led to it during that season he sexually assaulted them. They won three Stanley Cups over six years. Does that impact how important this is, Rick? I mean, this is in terms of this team's profile, in terms of the allegations against essentially the very top of that organization that we're. were asked to act and did not.

I mean, what, how important is the outcome of this investigation and assuming at some point it becomes public? How important is this moment for hockey, given the stature of that franchise and what it represents? Well, fair to say, there's jobs at stake, right? You know, it's a billion dollar company. It makes hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue every year. I reached out over the last couple weeks to major sponsors of the Blackhawks and to donors to the Chicago Blackhawks Foundation. Not one company, not one person was willing to say publicly

that the Blackhawks should even commission an investigation, independent or otherwise. And it does, to me, beg the question, where are we in 2021? You know, how far have we really come when it comes up to it, when you have an organization that's as powerful and influential in one of the largest media markets in North America with as much money is where it's so much much. money is at stake, are people really willing to do and say the right thing in those hard moments? Katie, I'm curious because your experience in covering these kinds of stories, are you surprised by what you've seen and how this is unfolded? And maybe how do you see this? I know, I know it's crystal balling, but what would you like to see? I mean, how does this unfold in a way

that to go to Rick's point, you know, that maybe show signs that we are moving in the right direction or that there, you know, that this is a different time than 2010 or whatever. What do you think of that? To answer your first question, no. I'm not entirely surprised by anything that has come out in this situation, largely because, you know, when I have covered sexual assault or sexual abuse cases in the past. An almost, you know, universal component of those cases are not, again, just, you know, the issues of the incident and the perpetrator itself, but the people who stayed silent and were thus complicit in the act and allowing someone to perhaps go undetected for a large

period of time, which could endanger or imperil others, which is a real problem. There was something that a sexual assault survivor told me once that has really struck with me just for its prescience, but also its universality, which is, he said, you know, silence is really an incubator for this. And I think that's, that's bang on, right? Like, I think the more we encourage and emboldened people to speak up about this. The more people who act like a Paul Vincent, you know, according to reports of,

you know, him sounds like clearly was a safe, he was a safe haven to players, someone that had cultivate such a, you know, great deal of trust and respect with them that they were willing to share their most painful,

private, traumatic moment. And I think, you know, when we think of this, I hope we all, you know, strive to be someone that someone in a situation like that would feel safe turning to, right? And that, you know, when the when, even when no one's looking, that when you have the chance to do the right thing, you do the right thing even if it's hard. I'd also expect guys that we will see more victims come forward. I can't say that for sure. but, you know, if you look at Katie's reporting and her colleagues, you know, there were interviews with other people who he was close to, whether it was in Marquette, Michigan, whether it was in Houghton, Michigan. You know, you have to know that these families are all watching this so closely.

And we know from police records that even though Brad Aldrich was charged and convicted in connection with one minor, the police also interviewed multiple other minors. and, you know, it didn't lead the charges, but the police investigated it. And it would not surprise me if people feel emboldened now to come forward and say, I was afraid to talk about this in, you know, 2013, 2014, but I found my voice and I want justice. That wouldn't surprise me at all. Well, I will say that, and Katie, you're absolutely right. When you talk about, you know, people, you know, people doing the right thing. even when no one's looking.

And I think it's really important the work that Rick and you have been doing because I think the work that you do also emboldens people to come forward. And it allows them a place to feel that their voice will be heard and that their stories will be heard and believed. And a tip of the hat to the work that you are both doing, not just with this story, but with all the work that you do. And thanks so much for coming. coming and hanging out with Pierre and I and talking about something that is critically important.

It's critically important to the game, but it's critically important far beyond the walls of the hockey community. Well, and to echo that, I'm sure there are lots of times where you guys get the kind of feedback that is meant to push back and to make you question yourself. But clearly, that's not being, that's not effective. and we can tell what the excellent reporting. Both of you continue to do. And like I said, I'm lucky to have you both as colleagues. Thanks so much. Thanks, guys.

Thanks, for having fun. Pierre, I will give you all kinds of credit on getting both Katie and Rick to join us today. It was your idea and it was a fine idea. And it's just, it's so important to keep talking about this issue, but all these issues like that. So good for you and a really, really important conversation. I think with both Katie and Rick. So good on you. Yeah, I know. I thought really important for us to have that and to have the two people really so involved in their reporting to break it down for us. You know, this is a huge story. And I'm glad that I'm glad we did that. Good stuff. We are now joined by Dave Haxstall, the new head coach of the Seattle Cracken. Dave, it's been five days. So maybe the novelty is more and off. But I wonder if you hear

head coach Seattle Cracken and you wonder who they're talking about or are you used to it now? Are you okay with the whole title? Yeah, it's starting to settle in. I still love the sounds of it and I'm still excited about the opportunity. Maybe walk us through the process, Dave, which was really under a shroud of secrecy. But how long the process played out and when you started to think to yourself, this could really happen. Yeah, you know, I mean, probably the relationship, It started back at the world championships in 2019.

But we had a chance. We did talk, I guess, maybe about a year ago now, in an initial interview process. And then that picked up then here after our season ended with a couple different interviews. I had a chance to get out to Seattle for a day and be there in person. And then, as we all know, once things start to happen, they happen. quickly. So my wife and my son and I had a chance to fly out and it was great to have them there with me. You know, on that day, my daughter wasn't able to be there, but the rest of us were. I'm curious when you go through this process and you're having discussions with Ron Francis

and were there things that surprised you or were there things that they wanted to know about you or from you that took you by surprise? answer? I wouldn't say there were things that surprised me. I tried to listen and really hear what they wanted to know about me. Obviously, I came from the college game, you know, went through different experiences, some successes, some failures in Philadelphia. You know, I'm having a chance to be part of the organization with the Leafs and that great

opportunity working with two different really good coaches from Mike to share. Sheldon, you know, obviously as you go through an interview process, there's, you know, there's things that the interviewer wants to discover. So I tried to listen and tried to give that in just in real honest, you know, real honest format. And everything's really comfortable. You know, the process was, as I said, was really comfortable and, you know, we just dealt one-on-one on a real natural basis. Pierre, can I just jump in and follow up? I did a piece not too long ago on. on, you know, what it's like when an NHL team hires a GM and what that process is like.

And I talked to a couple of GMs who felt that the process for them was as important in the questions that they asked of ownership or whoever was doing the hiring. And I wonder if that was part of it for you, too, that you had as maybe not as many questions for Ron in his group as they did for you. But is that part of it? Because you have to find out whether it works on your end, too. it's part of it because it has to be a good fit. So, and that's where there's no question.

It's an interview process and I answered more questions that I asked, but it does become, you know, a discussion as well. And it's got to be honest, you know, at that point in time, you know, it's, you know, the answers and the discussion has to be honest because there has to be a fit at the end of the day. And, you know, that's what this entire process felt like to me. Have you thought about picking Jura Gala? Lance brain at some point?

Yeah, I've, you know, I've stayed in touch with Turk. We worked together just before we went to Vegas, the World Championships in 17, and what a good man. We had a great time together and, you know, really, you know, came to know him and really just respect what he does. So I've had a, you know, I've been fortunate to stay in touch with him. And we haven't talked directly here in the last few days, but for sure, he's a guy that I'll reach out to and talk.

with. I'm curious about it. I'll say, you know what? I can just, I can come out of it with a couple of great laughs, right? I mean, you can understand who knows where it's going to take you. But I know this in all seriousness. I'll learn something. I'm just curious because it is, I mean, the process is so, you know, it's so interesting for you. I mean, when you took the job in Philly, okay, you know, okay, here's Claude Drew and Jacob Vorechak. You sort of, you know things about your line up and you move from there. And I wonder what it's like to sit in your office and plan a training camp and prepare for what is something that is completely unknown to you.

And I wonder what that process is like for you. Well, it's, you know, what I'll do once, you know, once I get back to that, you know, that task is this solidify the areas, the detail in the way we want to go about doing things. my focus over the next couple of weeks here is going to be on building the staff. And that's the most important thing that I can pay attention to now. You know, if I'm asked for input and ask for information on players that I may have, you know, knowledge with for the expansion draft, you know, obviously I'm going to offer that information.

But, you know, Ron and his staff have, you know, have the expansion draft extremely well covered and they'll be really well prepared. I'll give input whereas there. And right now, like I said, my main focus is to work at building a staff. And by the time we get through that process, we're like, we're going to, we'll be close to the expansion draft and we should have some players.

And then it becomes even a little more real in terms of how the detail of how, you know, the vision that I have for our hockey team, how that fits into the people that we have. Now, have you forgotten how many friends you had in hockey in terms of assistant and coaches reaching out? Yeah, well, you know, unfortunately, that's been the case, man. You know, there's so many good people that are around this game. And, yeah, you know, it's a lot of people reach out.

And, you know, I'm thankful for that. I'm going to work through the whole process and make sure that, you know, that we end up with a staff that can work hard together, that enjoys being around each other, you know, and has all the different elements to get the, job done in the National Hockey League. Pierre and I actually talked about this just after you were named as a head coach about the importance of building a staff and in making sure it's a staff that is in many ways

like a team. And I wonder, I don't know what your experience was like in building the staff in Philadelphia and then being part of the staff in Toronto. What do you think you've learned or what kinds of elements are really important to you as you begin to put that staff together? Well, number one, I mean, that's, that's the group that you, you know, you spend the entire season alongside, you know, you have your family and you have, you know, the staff members that you're working with.

And so it's, you know, it's really important to be, you know, to be comfortable as a group and be able to, I mean, you're always getting along or always agreeing or you have to be best friends going in, but, you know, you have to have some synergy that, you can, you know, work through, you know, both good and, you know, rough. times as you go along the way. So for me, that's a main focus. Obviously, I want to make sure we have all the right elements in terms of talents and abilities to fill in a staff, you know, to fill in areas that I know that we, you know, I need to

have filled in around me. But, you know, the big part also for me is I want to make sure we can have, you know, a staff that's hard work and tight and, you know, shows up together and gets a job done. the league has some great examples in recent years Dave of head coaches that get their second chance and the way that they seem to flourish and the lessons they brought with them what would you say are some of the lessons that you're bringing with you now to your second opportunity here there's there's pieces of a lot of things um i'll just i mean very honestly the first thing is just more comfortable with the challenge at hand you know i have a clear

understanding, a more clear understanding of what it is, of what the day-to-day challenges of the NHL are right from, you know, at this point forward of building a staff through training camp, through the early part of regular season and onward, you know, if I'm being blunt and honest, that's probably the biggest thing. You know, I have a better understanding of what lies ahead and what some of those challenges are. You know, I believe I'm better, you know, better armed to be able to deal with the challenges that are there. And, you know, just for me, it's just, I've got such an excitement about the opportunity ahead. And, you know, that's a good feeling to have.

Yeah. It's actually, it was strange timing. I happened to be in Philadelphia when the Flyers made the coaching change. I was working on something else. And I wonder what that period of time after was like for you. And whether you, you know, whether you wonder if you're going to get another chance or whether you know, how do you come out of something like that? Because it could be, it had to have been a very difficult time.

Yeah, it's difficult. You know, went home. We pulled one kid out of school. The other was at the birthday party. Pulled him out of the birthday party. He went home had a little discussion. We've always talked about it really pretty openly, you know, even when our kids were younger at that age.

So we got through the discussion and, you know, kind of what it all means. And I was my son at the time, he kind of looked at me and said, chance I can go back to the birthday party now. That was the immediacy of it, you know, other than, you know, your cell phone being shut down and good things like that. But no, you know what, I mean, in seriousness, it's giving you a chance to kind of look from within, right? Take a close look. And I truly believe I talked about it in the press conference a little bit. Really important to look at the things that were successful, you know, not just at the

negative, but look at those just as hard as, you know, the areas that, you know, that I failed in during my time in Philly and just try to do a full analysis of it. And to do that, I backed away for a couple of weeks. It was near Christmas time. So, you know, we just, we got home. We had, we had Christmas. And then from there, it was just about moving forward and building. And, you know, it didn't, you know, obviously it's not an enjoyable time. But it really, it really, didn't shake, I mean, you know, didn't shake or rattle me to a degree where, you know, it threw me off course. It was, you know, I've always been a little bit about digging in and, and figuring out a way forward, and that's exactly what we did. So, you know, over the next couple

months, I, you know, got a computer that I could use that had, you know, the same video system and started digging into the past and digging into the future. Ron mentioned that you guys hit it off at the 2019 World Championships, both part of the Canadian contingent there. What is it, do you think, that the two of you sort of see the game in similar ways? Like, where are some elements that you could bring up there? Oh, it was interesting. We, early on in that tournament, we were, you know, our training camp was in Austria. And we took a car ride a few, I can't remember even out of the hours.

It was two or three hours up the road across the border into the Czech Republic to watch. I think it was Sweet and Finland playing an exhibition game. But you just get an opportunity to talk about, you know, about hockey, about individual players and about life in general. And, you know, that's, you know, we did a lot of that. You know, I remember that particular car trip. But just, you know, throughout the tournament, that tournament has such a rhythm to it early on, you know, it's, you know, I don't want to use the word casual,

but the intensity level is much lower, you know, as you go into train. camp and it builds through the tournament as you get to the medal round. And I think it's a pretty neat opportunity to see people both, you know, in a relaxed personal setting as well as, you know, as a tournament ramps up, you know, into the intensity of the competition. And it's, you know, we just, we just spent time around it. And I think, you know, probably some of the core, you know, core processes or, you know, values, if you want to speak, you know, of, you know, how we view the game in terms.

of ability in terms of the speed of the game, you know, in terms of, you know, talking about players that are seeing the game on the ice and how they see it and their intelligence in reading the game, you know, and then, you know, obviously just the competitiveness. So, you know, I think those are some of the areas where, you know, we've probably found some common ground early on. What do you think it'll be like between now and I think training camp is supposed to start 22nd of September, maybe there'll be a rookie camp. I'm not even sure on what will unfold as we emerge from what we've been going through in terms of our schedule. But what do you think it's going to be like for you to have to sort of have the patience and let things fall and not

sort of be thinking ahead to opening night all the time? Is that a challenge for you, do you think? Or what do you think that's the process is going to be like? I think, you know what, I think I'm going to be, I think I'm going to be so busy that I don't, I really don't believe that's going to be an issue. You know, I know when I have a few hours, or if I have a day or two where I can, that time is going to be spent with my family. And I, you know, I know that because I know the value of that. That time becomes few and far between as you get closer and closer to some of those dates

that you talked about. There won't be many of those days. So, you know, in the meantime, I think we're going to be pretty busy. And I think it's really important just to stay in the moment. Like, there's a lot of things that have to happen. we can't fast forward to the drop of the puck. You know, for me, one of the biggest days I'm looking forward to is the first day on ice of training camp. So everything, you know, from, you know, a couple days ago building towards that day,

that's really important planning and detail and the whole process of getting ready for that day because that's our first day that we actually as a team get to start building on the ice. There's a lot of building to do before that. but for me that's you know that's a real focal point and I'm going to be a great day and my last question for you Dave is is whether you can share maybe although Ron wouldn't like that but the vision for how this team will be built built just from the point of view of like I think Vegas clearly went for the jugular right off the hop they want it to be a contender as quickly as possible and so certain decisions are made that way but you know you

you can also do that while also wanting to teach a younger team. And what's your sense of how that's going to play out? Well, part of teaching a younger team is, you know, around the competitiveness of it, is having success along the way as you're learning and as you're growing. And so two things, I guess I would say, and I'm not revealing a whole lot of new here for sure that, you know, that you haven't heard or, you know, that you wouldn't think of yourself. but, you know, I do think we have an opportunity to be successful, you know, as we move into year one. And for me, the biggest thing is there's an awful lot of comparisons that will be made.

And that's great, you know, from fans and everybody around the game, the comparisons and the successes that Vegas has had. Really important for us to set our own standards. Absolutely set our own standards. Live to those standards every day. And that's what will carry us forward to where we want to get to. And I'll take, I'll have one more as well. And you've mentioned your family a number of times. And I wonder if there's been a moment, you know, since the job was yours that has sort of been, you know, sort of reinforced for them that this is going to be a great fit and a great adventure for them.

And I don't know whether it's in Seattle or people you've heard from. Has there been a moment where you're like, oh, yeah, this is going to work for all of us? You know what? Everybody, you know, our group of four here, including me, was really excited. when we got the phone call and we knew we'd have the opportunity to go to Seattle. We did something a little different this time or around. You know, the first time in going to Philadelphia, we kept it very, kids were younger, so we kept it fairly tight between my wife and ourselves

as we were going through that whole process. But the one thing that we said, hey, you know, as we go through this, you know, the journey that can be, you know, that can come with this business, we're going to be open, we're going to be honest with, you know, with our kids. So we had the chance to do that and kind of talk through a little bit, the basics of, you know, of everything that was happening along the way. So when that phone call did come, it was an excited group. For me, I love seeing them. I love the fact that, you know, we can all be part of it.

So did they give you some advice along the way and contract negotiations or detail anything? Anything they have? Two by two best agents. I think they, their biggest thing was probably making sure they, you know, what, what's, what's, Can I come to the home opener? Where can we be? How does that all work, right? That's perfect.

It doesn't change. It's the great stuff, yeah. Yeah, can I come to the practice rink? And, you know, can we skate all those things? Good stuff. Well, Dave, it's been great to catch up with you and so pleased for you and the opportunity ahead for you and your family in that 30-second marketplace. It's going to be outstanding. I know, Pierre and I, we've got to find a way to get to Seattle, Pierre.

Maybe we can do a two-man advantage tour. We'll get out to Seattle. and do one there. Maybe we can get Dave to come on with us again. Yeah. There'd be some great spots there to host the show. That sounds a great idea. Congratulations, Dave.

Yeah, thanks for your time. Dave was great. Scott, Pierre, thanks very much. I appreciate it. Thank you. Pierre, that was a ton of fun. And as I mentioned, I happened to be in Philly, completely on another story at the time when Dave Haxthal was relieved of his duties there.

But I'm really curious to see how I just, think he's a nice fit for Seattle and I'm curious to see what his staff looks like. And the second time around, it just, we've seen it historically, whether it's, you know, Bruce Cassidy and Boston or Craig Barumi and St. Louis and go down the list. I think it's going to be a really nice fit there. Great talk at second time. I coach a lot of success. And by the way, really nice of you to remind him that you were there when he got fired in Philly. I thought that was very tactful. Well, it just, yeah. You know, but the one thing I'll say about Dave Haxall, because it's a hiring that, you know, didn't overwhelm some people last week.

And one thing I'll point to is that, you know, it wasn't a whole lot of reaction when the expansion of National Predators announced Barry Tross as their inaugural coach. And I think we know what kind of career Barry Tross is at. So, you know, just give the guy some time to see how he fits into this, would be my point. You know, it's not always the sexier name that wins the day. And, you know, this might be an example of that.

Yeah, no, I think it is, I'm with you entirely. And you're right, it's about how, you know, people who do get a second chance and learn about it. And I think, you know, think about your own career. You and I've talked about this, you know, things you've learned and, you know, on the broadcast end or things I learned, God, when I started in sports. And I know there would be people who would argue that nothing has changed. But when I started in sports, I was like, you know, what did I know? And what I didn't know was a lot. So, and I thought Dave was really, you know, really candid about that learning process, right?

It is a process and it's a journey. So, yeah, no, I'm excited. And I'm excited that maybe someday you and I will go together to Seattle. It's a sea. I know very little about that city. We should rent an RV. You should fly to Toronto from Atlanta. We'll rent an RV and we'll just hit a bunch of different NHL markets all the way out to Seattle.

All right. So you know what? I think we're on to something here. I think we are. Do you flat at RV. Yes. The little sponsorship. Do you know that?

Apparets and pickles in the fridge. Oh, my God. Do you remember, so sponsors out there, you know how to get a hold of the athletic. But do you remember when we were at ESPN and we did training camp? We'd like where there was a little map and you and I were at different training camps. I think we're on to something, yeah? Get a little RV and John Madden used to do that, right? Yeah.

Of course, I would have to drive it, though, because you're a maniac. Oh, no, no, oh, no. Oh, no. I, well, the problem would be if I was driving, you would be in charge of the tunes. If you're driving, I'm in charge of the tunes. So it would be a balance. Yeah. All right.

I think we're on to something, though. Okay, let's keep that percolating. There was a really good show today, buddy. Good work by you. What else we got going on here? We've got Nate Thompson or the Winnipeg Jets, former Montreal Canadian, and Tampa Bay Lightning visits with the athletic hockey show USA. Sean Gentile and Ryan Clark co-hosting this week, so good for Ryan as Craig Custin's on vacation. The Athletic Hockey Show Thursday.

Lazy, Craig Custins, eh? Lazy. I think he's writing a book. He's probably not even, he's probably not vacationing. The athletic hockey show Thursday with Ian Mendez and down goes Brown, Sean McIndoe, and Friday the Prospect series with Max Boltman and Corey Pranman. You should check out our comments section for each podcast episode at The Athletic app and rate and subscribe to the Athletic Hockey Show on Apple.

If you aren't already a subscriber, who is that anyway these days? I don't know who that is. Go to theathletic.com slash hockey show and receive a subscription for $3.99 a month. Pierre, that was excellent work. And I can't wait to see what we've come up with next week. Have a good one, man. Happy Canada Day for tomorrow. That's right, yeah.

Are you going to sit in your Adirondack chair? Muskocha chair, I think, is what it's called, my friend. get it right all right pal have a good one we'll talk to you next week right on right on