The Athletic Hockey Show - Debating and ranking the NHL Draft top 10

Episode Date: May 30, 2025

What’s it like inside an NHL Draft scouting meeting? On today’s special edition of the Prospect Series, the guys work to construct a consensus NHL Draft top 10 list, having the kinds of debates and discussions NHL teams are currently having about a month away from draft night. Hosts: Max Bultman and Corey PronmanWith: Scott Wheeler and FloHockey’s Chris PetersExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Chris Flannery Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. Hey, everybody, Max Boltman here alongside the athletics, Scott Wheeler and Corey Prondman and Flow Hockey's Chris Peters for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. What we hope is going to be a really fun episode. Today, we are going to construct a 10 player top 10 list with tiers. We're going to be debating those players, not necessarily simulating a team meeting. But we are trying to basically illustrate how a list comes together when there's different. opinions on players, how that shapes the final product. So here's how we're going to do this.

I've got Bob McKenzie's most recent lottery top 10 list in front of me. We're going to work off that. And we're going to discuss the players starting in the order they appear on that list, just to keep it from being a free for all. We're going to make our own list, but that's just this is the order I'm going to bring guys up to you. As we get later in the top 10, I will start asking more open-endedly for names, but at least that'll give us some structure for the first seven, eight guys.

We are looking to come to an agreement, and that means trying to persuade each other to do so. But in the event, we are tied on a player. There are four of us, right? That puts two and two very much in play on any given decision. Each of us is going to get one super vote that we can use at some point to overrule a tie in the debate process. You only get one. Use it wisely.

Yes. But if there is a player you are super passionate about and you cannot get everybody on board with you, your super vote would at least break a tie. So keep that in mind. That being said, let's start with Matthew Schaefer. we don't need super heavy debate here because he's the first guy we're introducing. But Corey, how about you just give us a quick rundown to the player? Why is he the top player coming in to the exercise?

Just whenever he was healthy this year, which, mind you, was not for an extended period of time this season with motto to start the year. Then everyone saw the injury. He suffered the world juniors where he kind of ran into the net there. And he was out for the second half of the season. Just tremendous at the Hilingagreski Cup in the summer. you know, a clear best player there. I mean, even Gavin McKenna was on that team, Canada team, and he's only like two months younger,

whatever than Matthew Schaefer. And Schaefer was, I would say, three times better player for them at that tournament. And when he was in the OHL, he was really good. With the World Juniors, mind you, limited games, not the important games, but the pre-tournament games in the first, you know, four periods of the Round Robin,

he was outstanding, one of the better draft eligibles on a team Canada, the World Juniors, in terms of that really small, sample size I can remember. You think of projecting him to the NHL. He's 6-2.

He's an outstanding skater. He's super competitive. He's a great defender already for his age. What's been really impressive about Schaefer is coming into the year, like maybe like 12 months ago this time. He was not a like a guy you thought was a consensus. 1-1. He was still among the best players in his age group. But he didn't really show a ton of offense.

And the OHL is a 16-year-old. We didn't know whether that was going to be a big part of his game. And as the season went along and what he showed at the whole, at the HAL, at the TDP series, and at the World Juniors, and in the OHL, he showed really high-end, puck-moving ability, a guy who could potentially be a first power play guy in the NHL.

I don't know whether he's for sure going to be it. I kind of view him as like a Jake Sanderson, Miro Haskinen type of defenseman. Can he run a first power play? Yes, if you get a John Klingberg type on your team, could you potentially knock him off to the second unit? Also potentially, yes. You know, was Seth Jones,

maybe another potential comp for Schaefer too in that regard. You know, that's the kind of player I view him as ultimately. That being said, I think the lack of sample size will be an argument slightly against him. But at the end of the day, I think just checked every box with emphasis and also one of the very youngest players in the draft class and just so much reason for optimism with this player. All right. So Schaefer is on our board. He's in the only tier that we have so far.

Our next player we got to discuss is Michael Mesa. Does anybody feel that Michael Mesa belongs in the same tier as Schaefer? I do. All right, Scott, let's hear it. I think there's a lot been made of whether a defenseman is a sexy first overall pick and whether defensemen belong in the first overall conversation in less than exceptional circumstances. I think there's at the very least with Schaefer,

there's enough of a question mark in terms of sample size. There were even questions coming into the season. He answered those questions pretty emphatically at all of the events that Corey mentioned on top of the CHL USA Prospects Challenge and other events. But the butt that I would have is that it is hard. Now, certainly Jake Sanderson, you redraft that class. Jake Sanderson has a case to be first overall in that draft class. Meryl Heiskin and Kail McCarr have a case to be first overall picks in the 2017 class.

but unless you're a kale McCar, it's not definitive. I don't think it would be definitive for Meryl Heisken. I don't think it would be definitive for Jake Sanderson, even if they're in that conversation. You've got to be a special player to be a surefire, no doubter, tier of your own first overall pick as a defenseman. I think Schaefer is potentially that. But when you've got a 6-1 center who plays both sides of the puck

and had a near historic draft eligible season in terms of production this year, 134 points. The way that he dominated Michael Mesa, that is, the way that Michael Mesa dominated the OHL level, I think it has to at the very least be a conversation at the team at the top of the, I don't think you can shut the door to Michael Mesa and say he doesn't belong. He's not in the same stratosphere. I think at the very least, it's a conversation that if we're making a list, it's a conversation

that we should have. anybody not feel Michael Mesa belongs in a tier with Matthew Schaefer. All right, Corey, let's hear it. I think Mesa, as Scott said, had a tremendous draft year, the 60 goals, the 130 points. He's a great skater. He has tremendous puck skills and vision. He is just a he's a wonderful player, and I think he's going to be a really impactful NHL player. That being said, I thought

Schaefer took over games, and he did so consistently throughout the year. I've watched Misa a lot over the last few years. I've probably seen him live 15 plus times. I've watched him dozens of other times on video just because Saginaw has been such an important team to watch over the last few years. I can't really recall, like really ever more than one game that I I've watched him, where I felt he dominated, where he took over the game, where he, you left the game saying,

holy hell, he was amazing tonight. And, like, there's some, he had a special element in his game that I think is going to become a star in the NHL. I just feel like he was just always consistent. He's a great player. He does a lot of things well, you know, you know, always seem to have great players around him too there in Saginaw. You know, the production was exceptional, but he's a third year junior play. It's kind of in the back of my mind there a little bit. And I would just, like, to me, if I'm the Islander is a one, it's a no-brainer.

That's just how I feel. Maybe Scott feels differently, but that's just how I feel. I have Matthew Schaefer number one on my list and have for the last three or four lists. So for me, it's not a conversation of who the better player is or who should rank where. It's a conversation of, are they in this? If we're tiering this, are they in the same tier? And the way I think about it, and I'll flip the question to you, could you envision a scenario where five, six, seven years down the line, Matthew Schaefer is a 40, 45 point top four stud, excellent, excellent two-way defenseman, and Michael Mesa is an 80-point first-line player? Yeah, but I could do the same exercise for Dinoje and Higgins and Frondell and Jake O'Brien.

And like, I don't think Shafer is not Macklin Celebrini. He's not Connor Bedard. Like, there's, there's scenarios, but I just feel like the package. If he's not those guys, then why does he belong in a tier all alone? If you can have that conversation conceivably with more players, then where is, where does that gap present itself? Why is it crystal there? I think there's just been saying, I think there's a gap and saying there's a ginormous gap.

But to me, I think there is a separation there. That's just how I feel. Is it just because this class sucks? Is that why? Because I mean, like, when was, how many, how many first overall picks played 17 games in a season? Oh, and power would be the closest one. So, right, like in a COVID year. And then that, that looks great now, doesn't it?

So, like, the thing that I, the thing that I can't, the reason that I think that there is a smaller gap is because there is so much still unknown. we have we have not seen matthew shaffer play a game since december and there was no ebb and flow to a season the good news for him is that every game he played he looked better than everybody else and and that's true like you go the CHL and tdp series and he's on the ice same team with michael meseo with caleb danaier and yes i would agree that that was not close to me um he was the best player there um it was really not close to porter martone like not close at all to So I think when we start talking about tears, I'm previewing a little bit there where Martone is probably not going to be in that mix.

But the thing is about this, the thing that I've been struggling with as we get through the rest of the season is, like, the no doubt consensus of Schaefer at this point, to me, is scary. I think, I think that this is a year where we are going to see one of these other guys. probably end up as a better player. I don't know who it's going to be, but I have a ton of fear about taking a player that we didn't have a full season of

as your number one, as the face of your franchise, as the guy that's going to be there. And yes, I also will have Matthew Schaefer number one on my list, but I am terrified of, I've never felt less secure about a number one pick on any board I've done. More so than Slavkovsky and that bad age group? Well, yeah, I had Cooley and I felt very confident about Cooley in that, in that, you know, and I, so like that was, this is, this is a time.

And it's really, it's not Schaefer's fault, right? He got hurt. What are you going to do? Like I, I, and the thing is is that every, every other time he was on the ice, he was excellent, you know, so like I, I'm not discounting that. But yeah, I mean, I think, like, the fact that we are talking about a player that played 17 games is a no doubt. lock first overall pick is terrifying to me. And it does not speak well of the class. It does not speak well of the class.

That's my other thing. Chris, do you like this draft class? I don't like it. I really cannot wait until next year and I won't like that one either. So that's going to be fun. All right. We've heard the pros. We've heard the cons.

We've got to vote on this here. First question that we're voting on. Is Michael Mesa in the Schaefer tier all in favor? Say I and raise a hand so that I can count and don't get confused. I. Sure. All right. Three to one.

I'm raising my hand as well. So we have Schaefer and Misa in a tier. It didn't sound from discussion like anyone has Mesa over Schaefer, though. Is that correct or am I wrong in that? Yeah. That is correct. Okay. All right.

So our list, we have a top tier of Matthew Schaefer and Michael Mesa. And now we're going to introduce our third player. And we are going to talk about Porter Martone here. I need somebody to introduce. I probably should have done this on the last one. Scott, Why don't you just tell us about Porter Martone? Yeah, Martone.

I mean, there was a time, what, six months ago in October, just before, really, before the NHDP, the CHL NTDP series that Peters alluded to, where Porter Martone was off to a two point for game start. He was pacing early on this season with Michael Mesa. There was a time where he was outscoring Michael Mesa and was first in scoring in the OHL. And people saw a six three winger who had a ton of skill and was making plays. and scoring big goals. I remember going up to Barry one night

and speaking with scouts coming out of the rank of a Barry Brampton game and scouts were raving in October about Porter in the way that he'd looked early in this season. He had two big goals in that game that I was at. He fought in that game. And there was just this momentum that had built coming out of a U-18 worlds that we can't forget about a full year ago

where he was one of the best players, a full year out from his draft year, albeit as an older player in his age group, was one of the very best players. in Finland at U18 World. So there's that picture of Porter, and then there's the second half. There's moments where he looked like he blended in,

where he looked like he struggled with the pace. The CHL NTDP series, as Peters alluded to, he fell down the lineup after being presumed by hockey Canada coming out of selection camp to be a guy who didn't even have to play and win his way onto that roster. He fell down their lineup. He ended up being largely a non-factor on another disappointing team Canada at the World Jun.

juniors. And then in the second season, I just think people started to nitpick and they started to look at the pace in particular and wonder about, okay, this kid's a top prospect in this group for sure. But where does he fit now? Is it, is it three? Is it four or is it six, seven, eight kind of thing? And I think that's the conversation that teams are now having about Porter. And that's the question we got to have about him. So does anyone feel that he is in the tier with Matthew Schaefer and Michael Mesa? Crickets. Okay. So we're starting a new tier here with Porter Martone. With the caveat that I obviously didn't feel Misa belonged in that group,

but I also would not feel that Martone belongs in a group with Schaefer, so I'll vote no in this regard. Yeah, and here's the thing. We can start a new tier, but I'm not, there'll be room to put guys in tiers between. Don't worry. Okay, start a new tier, but yeah, I agree. And I mean, I think some of the reasons that that I agree that he's not close to those two is, you know, beyond, once you get past, like I, you know, obviously love the size. I think the hockey sense is fine. I think that he makes a lot of plays. I think that there's, there's a lot of skill there for a player of his size and there's going to be value for players like him. Where I get a little bit concerned is when we talk about the things like the consistency, when we talk about things like his competitiveness and is game to game competitiveness. I think we've seen games where. he has been a force and we've seen games where he has been a non-factor. And that to me is a bit

concerning for a player when we're talking about if we are going to put him in a tier with two guys that we have, you know, alone in that mix. So that, you know, I, to me, I think the gaps between the tiers at the very top of this draft are very minimal. Um, and, and but, but again, I think like when you're talking about, I think positionality matters, I think other things like that matter. Um, And I haven't yet seen, I don't think Porter ever once this season took charge as I'm going to be the guy, even though I think that, you know, he, he wanted to be. It just didn't happen. I thought that being said, one quick asterisk, I actually thought towards the end of the year, it was limited action in the pretermine in the regular games. But I thought he held his own playing with NHL players on that.

Yeah. I thought that's, I think that's noteworthy. And I think in October, those 10 or 15 games that he played at the same game. start of the year, he was, he took charge. Like he was, he was dominant out of the game in the O HL this year. And outplaying players on his own roster who were previous top five scores in the OHL kind of thing, whether it's Ray Kopp for you go down the list. Like he was their best player for, for stretches of this season.

Yeah. Okay. So just to keep it, we're going in order of discussing the players, not because this is how they will end up on the list. This is just so that we have some structure to this. So the next player we're going to talk about is Anton Frontel. Does anyone want to make a case that Anton Frundel belongs in the tier that we have with Matthew Schaefer and Michael Mesa? That's a no.

Does anyone want to make the case that he belongs in the same tier as Porter Martone? Yes. I think they're about in the same group for me. All right, Chris, why don't you start, make the case for me? Yeah, I mean, I think that for a lot of the similar reasons that I have some concerns about Martone, and I have the same concerns about Frundel knowing how his consistency issues, especially when playing within his own age group internationally this year are concerning. I think he's a guy that will be on my list ahead of Port-a-Martone,

but still I think that that next clump of players is very tightly bunched. And part of the reason is I think that when we talk about Frundel, we're talking a lot more about projecting out, seeing what he did in the professional league this year. His best games to me were as good. good or better than Martones. And I think that he can impact the game in a different way down the middle. I do think he's a long-term center. I do think that he's a guy that can play, you know, both, you play at both sides of the puck. He can be physical. He can do all those things. He's not as

big as Martone, but I think that he plays big. And I think that he has the opportunity to be a guy that's going to really impact the game and between the face off dots. So that's, that for me is where, you know, I see him as a great option. We also have talked a lot about the fact that in the Alls Fenskin this year, his production on a per game basis was better than that of many top players like a William Nealander, like David Pasternak. You know, is he going to impact the game offensively as effectively as those players do at the NHL level? I think it's harder to make that case, even though the numbers suggest that it's at least possible.

You know, but I think that Frundel to me is definitely in that next grouping of players, and that among the players that should be considered kind of in that three, four, five, six range, seven, you know, could he go three? Could he go eight? Like, I mean, that's kind of where we're at. I think that that's so for me, you know, I think that his overall body of work puts him in that tier. Does anyone want to argue that he is in a separate tier, which right now would be a tier of his own, Corey? Yeah, and I think vice, it would be mildly for me.

I think I would probably have Martone. Like, you know, he's my, I think there's a gap there for me, but I don't think it's a gigantic gap. But the separation for me is that I think the skill level on Martone is just as good, if not better than Frondell's. I think his hockey sense is just as good, if not better. I think the competitiveness is similar. The only real gap I see for Frondell is he's a little faster.

And he's got a real. good shot. And he's a center, but I think Martone is at least two inches bigger than him. And he, I would argue, just has, I think, much more creativity and natural offense in his game. He makes more plays. And for me, I just think that profile projects better. We haven't gotten to really see them a lot on the same ice together to make a direct one-to-one comparison. The only real events they've even played. that are somewhat similar would be the U18 worlds where Martone was one of the very best players there and Frondell kind of laid an egg towards the end of this season.

I'll be it in two different seasons. So, you know, I just view Bartone as a first line wing in the NHL. I think he has got the traits to be a Philip Forsberg. I think he's got the traits to be a Miko-Ranton type if it really, really goes well. I think he's got that high-end skills, size, heaviness combination that I think will translate into play. off success, and I view Frondell as a second line center in the NHL. So that'd be the distinction for me. All right.

So let's vote here. Give me a yes if you believe that Frondel belongs in the same tier as Porter Martone. Yes and a hand raise. Yes. All right, that's two. We've got our first split two-two tie. Someone can use their super vote here if they feel extremely passionately about this one. Someone can volunteer to flip sides and make this very easy on us, or we can have each side make one last pitch before we vote again.

I mean, we've already kind of, I think it's more, this is kind of an order thing. No, we'll get to the order. We will get to the order. I would bend on this if one of the nose would guarantee that Martone still ends up higher on the overall list. I have Martone higher than Frondell. No. And frankly, I have Martone at the front of, closer to the front of this second group and and Frondel closer to the back of it.

I have it opposite. But you are one person. So. Yep. And I'm not using my super vote because I don't feel that strongly about it. Like I said, I did. I felt like Frondel was on the border of being in the next group. So like I'm fine.

Yeah, I didn't think he was close. So. I'm fine doing that. Yeah. And he would not be, I cannot guarantee you that he would be ahead of him in the order, although it looks like I'm going to get overruled anyway, so I'm just going to sit and stew in the corner. Because I'm not pounding the table.

You know, like, that's the thing. It's like, there's still a player, there's still two players on the board that I have ahead of Martone. So let's go. And there's still two players on the board that I have ahead of Frontel. Yeah. So there you go. So obviously, Frondell is not going to end up third on this list.

So I think we can keep moving. Right. Okay. So we have the yeses won that? Corey conceded that we can keep them in the same group. So long as he doesn't. Yeah, so long as Frondell doesn't end up ahead of Martone. Scott and I came to an agreement on that.

We presume that you have Frontel below Martone, Max, given that you did not want to put him in the same group. Correct. That was the agreement we came to. And so right now we would have it as Schaefer, that followed by Misa in the first group, and then Martone followed by Frontell in the second group unless somebody wanted to argue that Frontel belongs in his own group

ahead of Martone, but that doesn't seem to be likely the case right now. No. Okay, so we've got two tiers of two. We've got the top tier, Matthew Schaefer, Michael Mesa. We've got the second tier, Porter Martone and Anton Frundel. We're going to introduce our fifth player now. Corey, tell us about James Higgins. James Haygens has been one of the most prolific scores in his age group for years.

You go through history of the USNTDP, and he's one of their top overall scores, and he did so as a late birth, meaning not in his actual draft year when he was with the 18 team. Just a tremendous player. He was the MVP of the UA team worlds. I hate citing all these records and stuff about the HF tournament son. Russia, but he still was, for example, he laid an egg in that gold medal game, for example, but just an absolute fantastic tournament. Goes to the World Juniors this year.

He wasn't just good. I thought he was really good playing 20 minutes a game on a team that won the gold medal against Sons Russia, but still it's a, you know, that's a really high level for him. Was his draft year at Boston College? Fantastic? No. Was it still really, really good? Yes.

He was still a 20-19-minute-a-night guy on a top five team in the country, first-line centerman. She's got, he's the most arguably offensively skilled player in this draft. He's a really good skater, too. The arguments against Hagen's are going to come down to the fact that he's 5, 10, and a half. He got whatever 10-11 goals this year as opposed to the 20-30-something assists. and there's an issue in terms of the goal scoring

in terms of not just because he didn't score goals but because there was a lack of interior offense in his game, not just my opinion, the opinion of several NHL people I talked to throughout the year. And I think now that wasn't the case when he was playing junior hockey, both in the USHL and at the world juniors. It just seemed to be an issue that popped up against bigger, stronger players. Could he get stronger and that is not an issue in two years?

very much possible. We could definitely see Hagan's potentially come into the college next year and just be the clear best player in college hockey win the Hobie Baker next year. But I think that's the scenario with Hagan's and, you know, how does his game translate to the NHL? I think there are some questions despite the fact that he's been a center of his entire life at every level playing up age groups. There is still a minor question out there if he's going to be an NHL center.

And if he is an NHL center, is it an effective? NHL Center in the playoffs. All right. So that's James Hagan's. Does anyone want to vote that he is in tier one? That is nobody. Does anyone want to vote that he is in tier two with Porter Martone and Anton Frundel? Chris has raised his hand.

Scott has raised his hand. Scott, why don't you make the case here that he belongs in the tier with these two players? Yeah, I don't think he just belongs in the tier with those players. I think he potentially belongs at the front of that tier. I've got him third on my list. I think James Higgins is still one of the better skaters, one of the more talented players, one of the smarter thinkers of the game.

I think he has the competitiveness that people are looking for and that he is going to find ways to get to the inside and to gain inside ice with his skating and his skill level and the way that he thinks the game at the NHL level. I would not be the least bit surprised if he popped off in college and was one of the most productive players in college hockey in this upcoming season at Boston college and I still am a big believer in in James Higgins and what he's capable of getting to and the type of NHL player he can be. I have actually fewer questions despite the fact that he's five foot 10, despite the fact that

he didn't score a ton. I've got fewer questions about projecting James Higgins than I do about projecting Anton Frundell or Porter Martone. So that would be my case. I do have them all in this. I do have these players in the same tier on my list. But I think Higgins like I would push for third. and if he's not fourth,

that's sort of the conversation I would be having about this so-called super boat that we're using. So I think he belongs in the front of this next group. Scott's already threatening the super vote subtly there. And I'm glad that Scott is threatening it because if he doesn't if he wasn't going to use it, then I would.

Here's the thing. Here's the thing. Corey, put the tape measure away, all right? For a lot of the season, it wasn't the entire season. For a lot of the season, who was one of his right wing on his line, Corey. Ryan Leonard. Who is one of the better interior players we would see?

Yes? Yes. Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, I think part of the reason that Hagen's role was different at Boston College compared to how it was when he played junior when he was playing on the interior more was because he had other bigger options to go there. And I think that's what he'll also have in the NHL. but I also am going to say that I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't

concern about the, the, the interior play of James Higgins. I think that it's not because of a lack of want to or lack of competitiveness. I think that he's going to get there. The speed, as Scott talked about the skill, the one-on-one ability, his vision, his ability to make plays in traffic. You know, I, I think that there is absolutely valid concern about his size in terms of, you know, when, you know, we, we saw it last night. in the Stanley Cup playoffs, Sasha Barcov just being bigger than everybody and then also more skilled

is obviously a bigger is a huge advantage, right? But, you know, as I look at other players and he's, you know, he's five, ten and a half. We can, you know, in my world, that's five 11. Um, so, you know, like, it's, it's not that big of a, it's not that big of a deal. Yes, it would be nicer if he was six foot, six foot one, 100%. Uh, but I think he is, I think of the forwards in this draft, no one comes close to him in hockey sense, which is one of my, my most important traits. And I also think that, you know, in terms of the skating ability, that's a distinct advantage as well.

So I do think that there are ability, there, there's an ability for him to become an impactful player. I mean, I feel like we had similar arguments about guys like Patrick Kane who had similar, like, I think there's a hockey sense and skill level, not quite the hands that Kane had, but the ability to make plays and, and also to. create offense. Now, he also had a point per game this year in college hockey. And again, I think role-wise, one thing that does give me concern is that he didn't necessarily figure out how to be a driver alongside Gabe Perrault and Ryan Leonard and allowed those guys to do

more of those things. But I think that we are going to see a very different James Hagan's this year. And I do think he'll be one of the best players in college hockey. And I feel like we're going to have a reset. And when we're doing a redraft, he's going to be really high on a redraft. So to me, I think in terms of potential, he is my number three with a bullet. And so I think not only is he in this tier, he is at the front of this tier, and I will fight you if you say otherwise. That's my pounding on the table. I think we just heard the fighting you. But Corey, you did not raise your hand to put him in the tier.

I assume you want to give the dissenting opinion here. Why does James Higgins not belong in the tier with Anton Frundell and Porter-Martone? I mean, you watch the Final Four this past week. Don't really see anyone on the ice playing a massive role on any of those teams who looks like him. That's the argument. I think he's probably going to have the most points of anyone in this draft class, though. But that's really the argument is I have some minor concerns how it's going to translate. I don't find Chris's argument about Ryan Lairner convincing.

I think that's mental gymnastics. I think people always want to get score on the inside. I think people always want to drive the net. That's where all the goals are scored. I don't think people choose not to go to the net just because they for just because there's other players on their line who can do that. There are three forwards, Corey. There are three forwards.

Yeah. Everybody is going to the middle. I mean, Higgins did play on line with Leonard at the world juniors, if I recall, and still went to the middle at those events. What, where did he score his goal in the gold medal game? A wrap around. I don't think he's soft. Like, like I don't think his compete is an issue.

But I think of that size, if you're going to, be impactful. You have to be like Seth Jarvis. You have to be like an elite competitor to be that impactful at the next level. Like there's still people who are in the league who carve up Jack Hughes and wonder whether he's going to have success in the NHL. He's probably like an accelerated version of James Hagan's in terms of the player's style. So I think that's the argument against it. I get I have him on the precipice of that tier. So I'm not going to like die on this hill. I think he's a wonderful hockey player. But that's just my argument. against it. I have some concerns that we've discussed this in previous episodes. We don't need

to rehash this. Well, I mean, but the thing is, is your concerns are, are the result of measurables. How is he as a hockey player? He's a wonderful hockey player. I think he's going to be the top line forward in the NHL. I think he's going to have, he's going to run a first power play unit. I think he's going to be a tremendous score. I think he's goal, but I do wonder when the games get hard. If, if that's the, guy you can lean on, or is he just going to have like a Mitch Marner-esque career where he lights up the regular season and he disappears in the playoffs? You just had finished about five minutes ago making the case that Anton Frundel was going

to be a 2C. You're now talking here about a top of the lineup power play running player who isn't in the tier as a potential 2C. Yeah, I think Higgins could be like a first line wing or second line center, I think, on a top team but that's but then i have them back to back on my list so then it's a similar argument i have hagan's ahead of frondell on my list like i'm not going to die on this hill but uh but i don't have i that that was just how i felt but i at the moment i don't have him in that group so here's let me just let me parse that because i i hear where the the it's going to come up for people but i think

what cori is saying is we now have created this tier because of the disagreements where martone and friendell are together. I think Corey has no problem with James Hagan's in a tier with Anton Frundel. I think he has a big problem with James Hagen's in a tier with Porter Martone. That is where we're good luck to. Well, yeah, it's a difference of four inches. So there you go. I mean, it's a four inch difference between tiers. So there, there it is. So here's, here's what we're going to do. I can hear the vote already. So I'm going to join with the yes in the tier people, but what we're going to need to do is place Hagan. So Higgins is in this tier now with Martone and Frundel.

placing him, I think we're going to have a war on. Because I can already hear from both Chris and Scott, it sounds like you both want him at the top of this tier. Am I correct in that? He's three for me. Three. All right. So, Corey, I do not feel that way.

I would have Higgins in this tier, but I feel like I want him toward the back of it. I assume you're with me on that. Correct. So first vote is, does James Hagan's belong at three? And it sounds like we're going to two, two. Does anyone want to use a super vote here? I mean, I think both Scott and I are willing and able to use a super vote.

I'm prepared to. It's one thing to be prepared to. It's another to do it. I'll use mine. All right. Corey, do you want to use your super vote to counter this? Is that part of the rules? Yes, we can keep doing this.

We can trade this back and forth if we want. Wait, then I have to use mine to count on the counter. You would have to. if Corey feels this strongly that he wants to use his to counter this. So here's how I would feel, and we can make this a barter if we want to, is I would feel strongly about getting him over Martone. I don't feel as strongly. If you guys wanted to get him over for Rondell, I'd be perfectly fine with that.

Is that a hill you guys are willing to die on still too? Do I get to keep my super vote? if we agree that it's Yeah You would keep your super vote We need to arrive at a consensus here That would mark tone stays at three Hagan's goes to four

Can we can we get three people to agree to that I'm okay with that I've got some three four That Scott withdraws a super vote Chris does that mean you're going to use your super vote here No you can well Max if you agree with this Then it's three to one It's three to one on

So you have Yeah so max Three four five So yeah So that, yeah, so then I wouldn't be able to use my super vote. I would just have to, again, sit and stew in the corner over this one. I have Hagen's three and Martone for. But we don't get to publish.

Teams don't get to go and each of their scouts don't get to say what they had. Teams get to make one pick. They get to have one list. Right. If you make this deal, Scott, you don't get to go broadcasting that you individually had them three. It's the athletic hockey show prospect series top 10 list. No one will ever know. This is what we're arrived.

This is why if you feel strongly, you want to jump on the table. table and use your super vote, you can. But you got to make that decision. I'd rather keep it in the chamber as long as those two guys are going to be three, four on our list. I was more concerned with them not being three, four, and with a frontel or a De Nye, who we haven't talked about, who I just don't have the same belief in. But you never know who has a lot of belief in one of those guys. Let the record show, though, that I'm retaining my super vote here. All right. All right. So we have struck a bargain. Chris is stewing in the corner.

You will catch him on draft day feeling the same way. Here's the thing. You'll catch me in five years when I'm right, Max. That's when you'll catch me. Throwing us under the bus in the media with an anonymous quote. I was going to say, yeah, he's going to be the guy leaking to like Freedman or Surra Valley that he had Haygens two on those lifts. 100%.

Yeah. Yeah. He was actually one. He was actually one. That's where I was going. But yeah. But I mean, this is also, yeah. So this is the way it goes, though.

This is a democracy. And I will sit and I will stew in the corner and then I will knife these people over the years as I try to move up the ladder in my scouting career because I will remind everyone when I was right. If they tell you that Corey or I choked on a buffalo wing bone at the combine next week, just know that that is Chris's cover up for what really happened to us. I would never go that far. All right, we are through five players on our top 10 list, our consensus top 10 list here. Let's get to player number six. Caleb Denaier of Moncton. Scott, tell us about him.

Yeah, Caleb has had a brilliant season on one of the best teams in the CHL. They're currently, as this will be released, it will be the day of their semi-final game with the London Knights at the Memorial Cup. Caleb has been a focal point of that all the way through, except for actually through three games in the Memorial Cup, where he's, he remains scoreless in the Memorial Cup. There has been some chatter about him being a little banged up and not at his best. They're not using him with the kind of minutes that they've used him typically all year. But Caleb through to the Memorial Cup was the QMJHL playoff MVP, performed well at the CHL USA Prospects Challenge, and was in a down year, albeit a down year for the QMJHL from a talent standpoint,

was arguably the best player or one of the two or three best players in the QMJL this season was when we talked about David Pastronach and William Nealander in the production vis-à-vis Anton Frundel, you can have the same conversation about players who've been picked at the top of their draft class out of the QMJHL, whether it's Nico Huisher, whether it's Pierre Lugreux. He's not in the Nathan McKinnan stratosphere or even the Jonathan DeLaine stratosphere, but one of the more productive players that we've seen come through the QMJL in some time. And most importantly, for NHL Scouts, he does it as a six-one, one center. He does it playing both sides of the puck as effectively as just about anybody in

this draft class. And he does it as a real sort of thinker of the game, like high, high, high end hockey sense and leadership qualities and all of the things that NHL clubs are looking for. He checks a ton of boxes. Maybe it doesn't have the sexiness that we've seen from a player like a Matthew Schaefer or even a James Higgins or even some of those tow drags that we've seen from Porter Martone, but still legitimate skill and has everything else. And he's a six-foot-one center who projects to be kind of a late-game, a late-game guy. I expect it in the prime of his career he's going to be counted upon.

He's going to be relied upon. He's going to be out there for defensive zone face-offs in important moments. When Corey talks about the playoffs, Caleb kind of fits that mold. All right. So does anyone want to vote to put him in our top tier with Matthew Schaefer and Michael Mesa? No. Does anyone want to argue to put him in our second tier with, that right now is Porter Martone, James Hagan's, Anton Frundel? Corey, make that case.

Well, it seems like we are near unanimous on this one anyways. Nobody could see, but everyone put their hands up there. So, Corey, why don't you just tell us why we're doing this? Just, I think the way he projected the NHL is very favorable. This is a guy with no clear weakness in his game other than the fact that the last week or two, He hasn't played very well between the finals in the Q and now the MEMCup, but as Scott said, there might be some variables that are contributing to that. But I say he just does everything really well.

I think he's got all the indicators of potentially a top two-line center, maybe even a first-line center in the NHL. You'll look at the top Q centers that have come through in the last 10, 15 years, like Pierre Lou Dubois, Nico Hesier. He's been just as good at them at the same age. It has the same projectable athletic traits as them into the NHL. You know, you look at a guy like a Jordan stall on Carolina. Could he be maybe a little bit more offensive version of that, potentially?

He's just got a lot of positives. And I don't know, there's nobody I know in the league. And no one who's ever played with him ever says a negative word about him. Just the only real downside of him is, I think there's a minor question about how much offense he's going to ultimately have in the NHL. That was the case coming into the year. I think he silenced those doubts somewhat with the year he had in the regular season, the playoffs, but it is the Q. And how Q scoring translates to NHL scoring is a question,

as the league has deteriorated over the last decade or so in terms of quality. But that's the case for Caleb. I think he's one of the premier forwards in this year's draft. All right. He's in the tier. I would like him to be atop this tier. I think when I hear like Jordan Stahl, I think he's got way more playmaking than that. When I've seen Denoye on tape, the hands are excellent.

I think he finds seams. I think there's a fairly clear path to like a 65, 70 point, really good two-way center here. I think that's incredibly valuable. Does anyone want to join me? And my comp for him is Nico Hescher, which is an excellent player. I think that's not just a good two-see. That's a contending Stanley Cup caliber two-sie, although he's not been. on one of those teams yet.

If you plugged him in as a two C on any of the remaining teams, I think it's an upgrade. So I would have him three here. Does anyone want to join me in putting Denoye at three on our list at the top of this second tier? Crickets. All right. I wouldn't, but I could see us making a deal down the line. All right, a little foreshadowing. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, here's the thing. Like I have, like, we, you know, Scott and I just talked about how we have James Hagan's higher that but I also have De Noe A ahead of Martone. So again, this is this is the this is so now Max you and I are forming the forbidden alliance against Corey when it comes to the Porter Martone ranking. Well, okay, because I think I have Martone at three. Yeah.

Scott and Chris has Hagen's at three and Max has Denoia. My list is a mystery. That's true. That's true. Yeah. But that and again, this brings it back to my high. point about how tightly wound this group is because I think there's a case to be made. I think Dainoyer may be the most complete center of this group.

And so now you've got this kind of real argument here about structuring the list. And again, it comes back to me, positionality. You know, those different things where, you know, if we're putting it that way, all of a sudden, you know, it does make this case where Corey, you may end up further on the island with Martone at three. and that could ultimately push it down. So I think we're all in agreement that he's in this tier. So now it comes down to as we order one and two, okay, as we got Schaefer, we've got Mesa, we've got whoever is going to be three, you know, now because none of us,

except for me and Scott agree on where that, who that next person is going to be. So now this, the negotiation about whether or not it is Martone, Danoye Haygens with Frondell out of the picture now and at the probably towards the back of this tier. So where do so where do we go from here? Here's an idea, Max. Could we pull you on board for James Hagen's at three if we go Caleb Dainoy A like can the three of us just decide the list here and go James Hagen's three, Caleb Dainoy A four, Porter Martone five and suddenly Porter Martone has flipped on this on this order?

I don't know if we can revisit these grand bargains. I feel stronger that James Hagen's is three than I do that Porter Martone is above Denoia. Yeah, is ahead of Caleb Dianwe. I would prefer Martone to Hagan's. So I think I'm inclined to say if we're not going to strike some deal here to put Denoia at three, I want to hear the debate. I want to hear someone else suggests where they think he fits in this tier and have that debate. Yeah, I would probably want to have him. We have it right now, Martone 4.

Martone right now is 3. Martone right now is 3. Sorry, Martone 3. Hagan's 4. I would want to have Dendoye at 4, but I presume I'm going to lose that. I may lose that argument, but I think, based on the way it sounds, it might be 2 to 2 in that regard. I'm not putting James. There's absolutely no way I'm putting James Hagen's 5.

Yeah, same with me. I would, I feel strongly that a two-way center who can score in the 60 plus and potentially get himself onto Selkilis is an incredibly valuable player. That is a third overall caliber player, I think in most years, let alone a year that we're talking about as a down year. I think it's every bit as likely that we are looking back and saying that Deno Ye should have, should, yeah, maybe not quite go too, but I think there's, maybe there could be that case if Misa ends up on the wing or if he ends up scoring like 10 more points,

than Denoye a year, but Denoye is an excellent two-way center. I think there's also some risk there that what if it's 55 instead of 65? Yeah, no, that's true. And then there's a bit of a gap starts to present itself. I love Caleb. I love Caleb as a kid, as a player. He's awesome. But I do think there's more risk for there to be a bit of a gap in offense with Caleb

than there is with Hagen's or Martone. All right. So let's go gridlock here at Martone 3. And then we're tied out of two, two, on whether to put Denoye at four. Does anyone want to use their super vote to block Denoye or to put Denoye over the top at four? I would. All right. So Corey is super voting Denoye to four unless Chris or Scott block that.

Do we agree that? So we're saying right now it's Porter-Martone 3, Caleb Danoye, 4. Right now the votes are three to two Unless Scott or Chris wants to use their super vote I think we're losing the plot here So I'm not prepared to let Corey's super vote Have James Hagen's at 5 so I would I would use my super vote here So it's 3 3 now

To 3 3 3 Chris do you have any interest in using your super vote See now here's where it gets closer Because I'm still pissed about Porter Martone at 3 My condition on allowing that to happen without any of us using our super votes was that Porter Martone would be four. And we're now talking about Caleb Dainwe as four. So Corey, Corey has violated our handshake agreeing.

I don't think so. I thought that rule was he would be ahead of Lendell. Frondell. Sorry, yeah, Frondel, yeah, and that is the case.

No, I was making the case, if we roll the tape, uh, I was making the case that, that those two players would be three, four, that Martone and,

and Higgins would be three, four. I don't think that's what we agreed to. The name Caleb Dinoi and ever came up in that conversation. I'm revisiting that original conversation then and using my super vote along with Chris to put James Hagen's at 3. If we're going to play these games. Yeah. Yeah.

Then we double the super vote. If you're both going to use your super vote to do that, I will allow us to revisit that. If you're both going to do it. And I feel like Max and I would then just both use our super votes to not allow that. So I feel like what ultimately What's going to happen? Yes, so I think this is what's going to happen. Scott and Chris obviously are very passionate about Higgins.

And Max and I have some concerns on them having high. By the way it happens, by the way it sounds, it seems like we both prefer Martone and denouill and potentially Frondell, but let's not even talk about Frondell now for a second. It sounds like that's the way it is. I mean, before we even go,

anyone else. Does it sound like anyone else has any other player in this conversation before we redo this conversation for a third time? I was not going to volunteer someone else for this tier. Yeah. So... No, me neither. So, ultimately, is there a deal that could be made here? Is there a deal that could be

made that we could end up with Higgins at far on the list? But we would get, is anybody willing to put one of Martone or Denoye at three among Chris or Scott? All right. I would go back to my original, my original plan.

But I put's Daynoy A5, which is what Corey was trying to make his way into us not doing. Okay. So, yeah, so after some interesting negotiations and allegations of fraud, which I take great offense to. I know what he's saying because I think he was saying he wanted an assurance that it would stay Martone Hagan's. indefinitely. And I think Corey and I heard that as among the players that we have on the list, they will both be ahead of

Frontell. That's what Corey and I were agreeing to. I had made it clear that I would veto any, from the very beginning of this conversation, and Peters and I both said we would veto anything that put James Higgins at 5. All right. And so I think that's the way we've settled

this interesting discussion is by putting Denoy 8 5, unless anybody wants to put him below Frontel. No, if anything, I want him higher. So you three are agreeing on this? Because I think that I would want Denouye over Hagan's on my team. I don't disagree with you. But to me, that's not even the question now.

The question is if Martone, Hagan's, and Dinoe are on the board, I would be mildly upset if we took Higgins. But I could live with taking Martone? Could you do the same, Max? Yeah. So we're agreeing that it's going to be Martone 3, Hagen's 4, Denoye 5, Anton Frondell 6 within our second tier. Yeah, begrudgingly, yes.

Yes. Also begrudgingly, but I think that's the closest we're going to get. Yeah. Okay. Without a fist fight in Buffalo. And this is where I think, this is why we wanted to do this exercise, because by this point in the episode, and we are six players in, It has taken us one hour, which is where I will remind you guys that teams will spend days doing this and at a much higher level than we're doing it.

And I cannot imagine all the simmering frustrations because after six players, each of us is already kind of pissed about where someone has landed on our list. See, I came into this in a bad mood. And I wonder, like, how many of the scouts come in with just, like, just ready to fight. And by the way, the language that we're using, I feel as much softer and kinder. and I dropped an F-bomb earlier in the episode. So anyway. They don't get bleeped out in those meetings. No.

Man, that'd be fun though. Good thing nobody's nursing a slight hangover. Imagine at that point, right? We'd had a couple pops last night. Exactly. Exactly. We'll revisit this in Buffalo. In Buffalo.

All right. Let's move it along. We need another player here. This is where I will turn. We already said we were all at the end of a tier. So, Scott, why don't you nominate the next player that we're going to talk about? Tell me about. I'll nominate number seven on my list.

And it's not someone that I'd be prepared to use a super vote on per se, because seven through 11 or 12 on my list, I'll be, I'll be less passionate at this stage of the process. I'll listen to everybody. But I think there's a real case that the second best defenseman in this class and that the seventh or eighth or ninth best player in this class is, is Radeen Mertka.

And so I'll make the case that Radeemirke belongs at the front of this next group. I expect knowing Corey's list and that side of it, I expect that I'll have to give something back on that. But I think Radeem, with the way he skates, the projectability of being a 6 foot 5 defenseman who can really, really skate. You start to look at the centers that are available. I think there's big questions about Roger McQueen. Brady Martin has had a real surge here.

I'm sure we'll get to all of these guys. Victor Eklund is a 511 winger. at the end of the day that Radeem Merck has a 6 foot 5, 6 foot 5 and a half defenseman who is a high-end skater and has shown some real poison offense on the puck, especially in the second half of this season with the Seattle Thunderbirds. I think there's a very strong case to be made that Redeem belongs at the very front of this next group and certainly in our top 10. All right. So what we're going to need there, so that's right now he is the only player in this next tier. Corey, I want you to nominate someone that you would have over Redeemed Mercca. I mean, you got to start with Jake O'Brien.

Like, I think he's clearly better than Redeemed Mirka. But, like, he is, I would argue after James Higgins, he is the most skilled player in this draft. He does so many special things with the puck, with his skill, with his vision, his creativity, the way he could slow down a game and fine lanes. he does that way. He's had a growth spurt. He's now at 6-2 and he's still skinny and still developing physically. I think he skates fine. I think some scouts pick apart his pace.

I don't think he's a bad skater, but I don't think he plays very fast at times, but when he gets going, he can get going. He's not physical, but he gets to the inside. He has shown a lot of interior offense this season. It was a big part of one of the very best teams in the OHL this season. It's a very young 07 as well. I just think there's so much room for development with this player. I absolutely can view him as a second line center on a contending team.

Honestly, I think he's closer to Anton Frundel than he is to like some of the rest of these players that we will discuss. I just, I think he's a fantastic hockey player. All right. So these are two new players, Red and Merca, Jake O'Brien. First question is, are they in the same tier? You're each nominating them as the next player we should have. but so Corey do you believe these are two players in the same tier? No, I think Merca is a different group than O'Brien, but I also don't think O'Brien

belongs in that other group. Okay, so you would have O'Brien in his own tier three, Merca and his own tier four is what you're saying? Correct. Scott, how would you tier the two? I have them in the same tier. So you would have both in tier three. So Chris, do you think that Jake O'Brien and Red and Merca belong in the same tier?

I do not. I would have O'Brien in his own tier and then I would have Merck in a separate tier. But again, I think we're getting down to very small margins as we get into this stage. I think we've debated the guys that we have in the earlier tier. I think this is where I start seeing a little bit more of the gap. I don't think it's a huge gap between, say, Frundell and O'Brien. I think it's a little bigger between Frondell and Murka. but yeah, again, it just kind of comes back to where at.

So again, you know, and it comes down in position too. And so there's going to be a lot of debate here. I think the centers are going to go pretty early. And I would prefer to take the center over the defensemen that I have some concerns about. I have seen, just to give a quick stump, I know we have to get this moving. I have seen Jake O'Brien play with Hockey Canada twice where he wasn't a go-to play. wasn't an offensive driver, wasn't a point producer. He, for all the talk of Corey Dave of him being maybe the second most skilled

player in the draft, he had 40 fewer points than Michael Mesa this year. That's not a small gap. He is still a super skinny kid who needs to get bigger. There's development that needs to happen there. I've seen him playing games in Brantford where he's been the third or fourth best player on that team to Nick Lardis or Merrick Vaneker. This isn't a player who has proven that he, he's a no doubt top six,

sure fire top six center. The skill level is high end. The hockey IQ is high end. All of those things are true. I think he's a top 10 player in this draft for sure. But I do think the conversation that's happened amongst some scouts I've spoken to and certainly in the public sphere in terms of talking about him as a sixth,

fifth potential overall pick, I think that's gotten carried away, which is why I think they belong in the same group. And Max, where do you stand? I would have O'Brien in a tier above Merca. So we would be three to one there unless Scott's going to try to force a tie with Chris and use a super vote. That's fine. All right.

So we now have eight players on the board in four tiers. I'm going to introduce the next guy. And it's Roger McQueen. He is a six foot five center that is obviously rare athletic tools, but he has excellent hands. He's a good skater. And the big question on him, of course, guys, is the back injury. I think that what makes him the hard player to discuss is that we don't have a medical team. But for the sake of our processes, let's imagine we do, and that our imaginary doctor, producer, Chris Flannery, has given us the green light that there is not something in the medical that would make him nervous about drafting Roger McQueen, just on the strength of the player.

I think among teams, so let me, let me take this with how the information is right. know. I think teams right now are not as nervous about his injury as they were about Caden Lindstroms. But it's not to say they don't have any nerves about it whatsoever. I think, still think there are significant concerns about a back injury that kept him out all year. Okay. So we're imagining that our doctor then has given us encouraging updates, but it's still acknowledging it's an 18 year old with a back injury is what you're saying, Corey. Yes. Okay. Does anyone feel with that information that we have that Roger McQueen belongs in the same tier as Jake O'Brien?

Corey, make that case. I think if he was healthy, you're talking about him in that next group, to be perfectly honest. Like, he's one of the more unique players in this draft. It's a really rare toolkit. Like, it's a toolkit that's symbolic in some ways to Quentin Byfield at the same age. like the skating, the skill, the compete. He's a really impactful player's just been the injuries for the most part. And I think you have to hedge that in some regard.

Like, I understand why you wouldn't put him in that group or why you would, I would probably still take Jacob, put Jake O'Brien over McQueen right now. But then it gets to a point where like you talk about him versus Mercka, like what does Merck could do better than him? Name one thing he does better than him as a hockey player. He's not more physical. He's not faster. He's not more skilled.

He's not smarter. All he is is healthy. Rame Merca is a better skater than Roger McQueen. I don't think that's. But that's just my opinion. Your opinion is different. But that's just how I feel is that's the distinction. I think there's a certain level of player where the drop-off happens,

whether it's like talking about Braden Coots or Justin Carbino or even like Brady Martin where I'm like, okay, these are not analogous hockey players are in the same realm to where I'd be comfortable taking that risk. But obviously, I seem to be that I'm alone in this. regard. Yeah. And for for me, it's just I take the risk very seriously. And if I'm making a top 10 list on this draft, I don't like that if that was thrown in there. I don't that if is too heavy for me. I would not more than likely have him in my top 10. So right now we have O'Brien in his own tier, because I think we got I've got a hood one to three here.

I want McQueen and O'Brien's tier. Oh, okay. So we're two to two. So anticipating that this conversation was going to happen when I didn't use it on James Higgins, I would be more prepared to use a veto or a super vote or whatever we want to call it against taking a chance that we risk making a mistake on Roger McQueen rather than stumping for one of the players in this group with that vote. So are you using that to get Merca into this? So you're not using it, Merca, you're saying, put him in the group with Merca right now. Yeah, I mean, we'll get to it.

But I'd have J. Co. Brian, ready, Merca, Brady Martin. I'd have, I'd be, I'd be more comfortable taking any of those players, slotting any of those players in the top 10 than I would. Stepping up to a stage and risking my reputation on a mistake, on a potential mistake. All right. I'm not using mine. So Scott's Supervote, no. Scott's Supervote is going to drop McQueen into our fourth tier with Merca, yet to be

yet to be ordered. We will get to ordering them at some point. Yep. The next player, Chris, is yours to introduce, to dominate and introduce. Yeah. So the next guy that I have in the mix here would be Victor Eklund. He is a 511 wing, super competitive, quick, shifty. I had 31 points in the Allsvenskine this year. You know, did play for Sweden at the World Juniors. I thought he was one of their most impactful players at that event. The competitive drive that he has is significant. You know, I think that that's something that offsets any concerns about the size. Yes, he is a wing, which I do think in this center heavy draft makes it a little bit more

challenging. But I look at the skill, the overall skill that he has and what he can do and the way that he can impact the game that I would put him, you know, I feel like he's closer to that Jake O'Brien tier than he is in some of these others. I just feel like, you know, for him, he has some potential, at least to be a top line winger at the NHL level. I think it's more likely he's probably a second line winger. But to me, there is a lot to like about his game, his compete, his speed, his, you know, just his overall presence in a game and the maturity that he plays with. I think that there's a lot to like about him among the wings in this draft.

And, you know, I think that he's right in that mix of being, you know, be. behind Martone the number one wing in this draft, or the number two wing. Does anyone want to put Victor Eklund in the tier with Jake O'Brien, which is right now tier three. Corey, make the argument. I just think when you look at a small winger, you ask, how does he have success in the NHL and have success in the NHL playoffs? One, he has to be a great skater.

Eklund does that. Fantastic edge work. Plays fast. is he really competitive? Oh, this guy is probably... You might argue he's the most competitive player in this draft. He's a gamer. Like, he will dig in there.

He gives it all his all every shift. And three, does he have offense? Absolutely has office. Look at what he... How he pointed in the Alsvenskinskin this year. Look at how he helped the World Junior offense this year. Look at how he's been as an underage. Is it he the most elite little guy you've ever seen in terms of offense?

Probably not. But I think, like, he has a very translatable game. And I think he is a top six forward on a winning team. So that'd be my argument. Is 511 little? It's going to be funny when we get to the Brady Martin argument. And we're going to talk about how he's this amazing power forward. And then he weighs the same as Eklin, but is one inch taller.

So, but you know, you know, back to the earlier bleeped out point made by it matters how you play and what your attributes are more than more. I love Eklund. I don't know why you're getting off. I think you look at Seth Jarvis. You look at Logan Stankoff and you look at like Brad Marshawn on like the most optimistic view. That's how those guys who have success in the playoff. That's how they play.

And I think this guy plays like that. I think we all agree. Do you oppose putting Eklund in the O'Brien tier? No, I mean, the challenge at this stage is that I think that Mertka, Eklund, and O'Brien are all in the same tier. So every time we put someone in a tier that Mertka isn't in, I'm arguing against myself. But no, I have no issues in terms of Jake O'Brien and Victor Eklend, I have no issues with that group existing. All right. So four are unanimous is we have in our third tier yet to be ordered, Jake O'Brien and Victor Eklund.

Let's get to Brady Martin next. Scott, why don't you introduce Brady? I mean, Brady is, as Corey alluded to off the top there, six feet tall, but not in the way he plays. You look at some of the bigger forwards in this draft class, whether it's Malcolm Spence, who's six, one and a half and 200 plus pounds, or Lyndon Leichich. and Malcolm's a very competitive player, but he's a force. He plays like he's 6-3, 6-4. The most, I would argue the most competitive player in this age group. I think Kishan H-Sim has has a case for that group, but I would argue that Brady has that as a truly sort of separating singular quality in this age group, certainly one of the most physically imposing players in

this age group. And we've seen skill. We have seen legit skill. We've seen him dance guys. We've seeing highlight real goals. We've seen him, he's gotten an NHL shot. He can rip the puck from from high in the slot. We've seen playmaking. I think there were questions coming into this year is, is this just a player who plays on instinct? Does he have the sort of hockey IQ piece of the puzzle? But I think we've even seen, seen more and more of that as well. So now you start to put it together and you've got, forget the fact that he's a six foot center. You've got a physically imposing at-time dominant player who can impact the game in more ways that a lot of these players can.

And even if the offense is maybe a smidge below some of these guys, I think you talk about impact, you talk about driving, and he's got a potential to be that kind of a player. Like I think of Brad Richards and that sort of style of a player. I think he's going to be the Justin Williams, those types. I think he's going to be an impactful player when it matters most. And he plays a, he plays the centerized position. And he's a very unique player in a draft class that doesn't have a lot of guys where you go that guy is one of one. That guy is singular.

Okay. So anyone want to make the argument that Martin belongs in the third tier with Victor Eklund and Jake O'Brien? Scott? Yeah, again, I think all of these players belong in the same tier. But I think Brady has shown enough and has come along fast enough and has an ability to impact the game as a second line center. If you're talking about Jacob, Brian is a potential second line center. I think you have to talk about Brady Martin as a potential second line center. I will join Scott in that. Do you do Scott, sorry, Corey and Chris, do you guys oppose putting Brady Martin in Tier 3?

I oppose. Okay, tell us why. I have just minor questions on the offense at the next level. I think you show you the U-18s, but I think there's been points throughout the year where I've had questions on the playmaking, on the last. hockey sense. Not in a major way, but enough of a way that I don't really know if he's for sure going to be a guy.

He's definitely not a top power play guy in the NHL for me, whereas I see a path for an Ecklander and O'Brien to have that kind of offensive ceiling in the NHL. I think, you know, the names that get thrown out with him is always like, you know, he's Sam Bennett and he's, you know, he's going to be the next Sam Bennett. It's like, well, Sam Bennett had some really rough stretches in the NHL for a long time before he discovered what he really was. and we'll see what Stanman it looks like when he goes to another team

this summer how much offense he really will have even if the way he plays is super likable you know I do also wonder whether Brady Mart is actually a center in the NHL I think you know there's a reason he got pushed to the wing is because I don't think he is that true you know play driver down the middle

so I think those are my minor concerns that being said would I be really opposed no because I think he's super like that super likable tremendous skill tremendous physicality, good skater. You know, I think he's going to be a really nice top six forward in the NHL. But that's just the way I lean.

I don't know if we're, are we going to, are we split on this one? Or is Chris going to just, you know, which way do you lean Chris right? I mean, I don't, I don't feel super passionate about it. I think this clump of players with the exception. Like, I think O'Brien is is ahead of much of the group. But at the same time, I don't think there's a ton of separation here. And it makes it interesting now, too, because. as we get further down this list, I probably would have Mertka over Martin in this argument.

So then all of a sudden are we saying that maybe, like, is this fourth tier or third tier really just a big glob? Or do we, you know, how, how married are we to it when it comes to actually just getting the order down at this point? I think that the tiers mattered a lot more at the beginning. And now I'm a little less invested in terms of tiering them as opposed to ranking them because I do think. We're just splitting hairs here. You said a lot of things, but he didn't answer the question. I'm a big believer in that, that this is, that these, these six or seven players, and you're only finding, you're finding four spots, I think, for six or seven players,

but I think they're all, they're all in the same tier. So are you guys saying you want to recombine these tiers into one tier? I definitely don't. I think you got, I think you got, there's some separation. The separation is never as big as this is the top, but I still think there is separation there. Where is it? Like to me, it's like, I do think that Eklund, O'Brien, you know, who else, McQueen, even we were talking about. McQueen's in the tier, in the other tier.

So there's in the four tiers. We're deciding which tier Martin belongs in. Is it the tier with O'Brien and Eklund or is it the tier with Merckin and McQueen? I would put them with Merckin McQueen. So what are 2-2? 2-2. Anyone want to use a super vote? I might as well use mine here.

I don't think there's any other player that I'm going to feel this super-passionately about. Yeah, I think that a second line center who impacts the game, I agree that Brady Martin's point totals might make you look at a potential, you know, eight to 12 pick and have some fans annoyed at you. But when you watch him, he impacts the game. Whether he's scoring or not, it might be on a screen. It might be on a hit. And you talked about Sam Bennett taking a while to find that that was his role.

I don't think it's going to take Brady Martin much time to find that that's his role because he already seems to know that that's his role. So I will super vote Brady Martin into our tier three. with Jake O'Brien and Victor Eklund. Okay. Okay. Well done, Max. Way to take the reins there.

That's 11 players. Is there another player who we have not discussed yet that any of you feel belongs in the top 10? I have one. Let's just see how many are left. Does anybody else have another player other than one? I have one. Okay. Let's see if it's the same guy.

Corey, you lead us off. It's Kishan for me, Chris. So what is that same player for you? That's the one. Yeah, I mean, I know he's a late birth, but 25 goals. this year, 40, what, 45 points last year, 6.1.5 defensemen who skates well. And oh, by the way, offense is not what he's known for. He's known as like this super physical, hard to play games, will fight anybody, will hit

anybody type of defenseman who just happens to be one of the most productive scoring draft eligible defensemen in the OHL over the last decade. And yeah, he's a little crazy. And yeah, he goes out of position, way too much to hit. guys at time. But like, holy hell. Like when you watch this guy, I think he's one of the more impactful defensemen in this draft. He's one of the guys you notice most on a game to game basis, sometimes for negative reasons, but mostly for positive reasons in a game. I think he's going to be a top four defenseman. I think in eight years from now, you're going to be watching

the playoffs, presuming he's on a playoff team, and people are going to be like, how the hell did this guy get to wherever he was in the draft? I love this guy. And, and, you know, and, you're going to be like, and, And I just think he's just a great player. And I think he belongs in that tier three. I think there's also a chance he's sitting in the penalty box of an overtime in the playoffs. And as much as you love the physicality, I do think that that has to be a part of the conversation. Some of what he gives back with the physicality is time spent with his team short-handed. I think I'd rather tame a wild man than, you know, than try to goad it out of him.

I'm not sure, knowing Brady Martin and Kayshaun Acheson, I'm not sure they're tameable. That's probably true. I mean, and maybe that, like, maybe that's what you want. I think you need a little bit of psycho. I love Kajon. I just don't think he's a top 10 pick in this. Interesting. I think Kishon's an awesome player. He's very high on my list. Okay, so Scott's a no on tier three. Corey is a yes on tier three. Chris, are you a yes or a no on tier three? I think Kishon's tier four. I think he'd be toward the end of my tier three, but I think he's

in my tier three. three. I do have him ahead of Merca at this point. All right. I like him in tier three as well. So that gives us 12 players. We still got to order these guys, though. So in tier three, the names we have to order are Jake O'Brien, Victor Eklund, Brady Martin, and Kishon. H.ison. I think I probably should have been having us do this as we went now that we're going to get back here. And this is going to be a little bit of a free for all. But let's just, in that order right now, who, Corey, why don't you nominate somebody to move? from where they currently are in the order I just said, O'Brien, Eklund, Martin Aitchison. That's the order, I think.

Okay, Scott, do you have someone you would want to move in that order? I think I could make a case for Eklund over O'Brien, but that's the order. The only thing I'd feel really strongly about in that is that we keep, if Acheson's going to be Tier 3, I think he's at the back of it. Chris? I think that's correct. I mean, I think I like the order where we're at right there. Okay. All right. So that actually rounds out our top 10. It finishes with Merck and McQueen in their own tier four as 11 and 12. But we're here. Let's debate the order of it. McQueen versus Mercka. Scott, do you want to make the case for Merkka over McQueen? I think that's why you super voted McQueen into this tier.

Yeah, it's more about the, it's more about McQueen than it is for Merck at this stage for me. I've made my case for Murtka. I think you guys know where I stand on Merk. I think he's going to be a top four defense. who's 6-5 and can skate, and those guys are extremely, extremely hard to find. And you look at the, Corey's constant look at the NHL playoffs here. Those guys are playing in the NHL playoffs still. And they play at the top of good teams in the NHL. I'm just not comfortable. I think we've got the top, basically the top 12 players in the draft here. And I just have, when I've been building my list, when I've been coming back to it,

I keep coming back to, I think it's close enough with all of these players and McQueen that I'm not, I'm not staking that kind of a pick on a kid who might deal with lingering back issues here moving forward. Unless I have the crystal clear that this is a non-issue, and that's pretty hard to get, as we've learned with some of these injuries. Unless we have that, it's, I'm just not, I'm not, someone else wants to step up to the podium and make that pick, they can, but I'm not, I'm not going to be. on TV making that pick in the top 10 or top 11, I don't think.

Yeah. Yeah, I'd say, I'd feel pretty risk-averse about that too. And I think that that's the way. Like, I think you could stomach it at, you know, as you get it a little bit later in the draft. So, yeah. All right. So we're two to again. Chris and Corey still have their super votes.

Do either of you want to super vote McQueen above Mercka? I will. All right. So that is our list. And this is how it tears out. Unless Chris, you want to block it? No. Okay.

I mean, I don't care. Use or lose it, I guess. These don't carry over until next year, I don't imagine. No, I'm just going to save it and just say I didn't have to use it because I was so convincing. Chris is going to get two next year because he hates this class so much. Midwest, nice. These are our tiers. Tier one, in order.

Number one player, Matthew Schaefer, number two player Michael Mesa. Tier two, our number three player is Porter Martone, number four. James Higgins, number five, Caleb D'Noyer, number six, Anton Frundell. That's the end of tier two. Tier three, our number seven player is Jake O'Brien. Number eight is Victor Ecclund. Number nine is Brady Martin. Number 10 is Kishon. Acheson.

That's the end of tier three. And tier four, our number 11 players, Roger McQueen, and our number 12 player is Ready Merca. Hearing all that back, you will note that this is none of our lists. This is the collective list. And I'm sure everyone has a couple things on there that it kind of hurt to hear in order. But big picture takeaways from it. Obviously, if we were a real scouting department, it wouldn't be quite so democratic.

We would have a scouting director and we would have a GM who could super, super vote us all and overrule us here. But I think going through the process, I think it was pretty informative of how this can feel when you have your individual list and see the whole product come out differently than any of us. None of us really won this exercise. Right. I think doing this last year would have been much more chaotic. Chaos. With those seven defensemen in the mix and yak and Demadov and Lindstrom and it would have been. You really want to see a fistfight?

You really want to see a fistfight? That would have been. I feel like this one, like Scott and I have, we do debate articles every year. And like, we're struggling to figure out, like, what the debate article is. It's like, oh, he has Hagen's three. I have him five. Is that really worth like a prolific debate? Like that we're both acknowledging he's a great player.

It was pretty good debate on here, I have to say. It was, but it's just like a matter of like, is you get 9.5 versus a 9.2 or something like that. Like that's really where it comes down to. Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny. You know what's going to be really funny is when Roger McQueen and Radeemirkeh, with their tremendous reach their ceilings that that we can potentially project for them

and then are the best guys. And we basically just blew right through them. And so here you go. I mean, that's the thing. That's, we won't know. I really feel like this is a draft class that is going to take years to, as every draft class is,

to figure out. But really what these arguments and these tears and everything else, in the end, none of us are super pumped. Like I think that's, that's kind of what I get out of this. It's like, yeah, it's good. But nobody's,

super excited about it. Like, it's why, it's why at the end, I'm like, it actually ended up being pretty similar to my list. I'm actually quite satisfied with the end product. Corey, boy, he's puppeteer and maneuvered everything to get what he wanted. Yeah, well, in the end, there can only be one list. But I think, I think the queen is lower than you have him, Corey. I think Martone is higher than you have him, Chris.

Scott, I see, you want Merca higher. You want a Hagan's higher. Like, I want a denouier higher. We all have a guy here that we're like, this is not where I envisioned him landing on this project. Right. And I think that's the thing. If everybody leaves happy, then you didn't do your job. Other than flipping Murta and Acheson and having Hagen's one spot higher, this is also very, very close to my list.

So I'm not. Yeah. It's not far off. I think we got the right 12 guys, right? I think we have the right 12 guys. That's the big part. And yet you know there's someone out there who's like, you have the right. 12 guys.

Yeah. Carter Bear or Justin Carboneau or Jackson Smith. And that's the beauty of this. That's why we get chaos on draft day. That is going to do it for us. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. You can, of course, catch more of Chris over at Flow Hockey and on his podcast called up. Scott and Corey churning out a ton of awesome draft content every day for you guys right now.

Make sure you're reading that on The Athletic. Las and I have you covered on Monday with the next episode of the athletic hockey show. We'll talk to you soon.