The Athletic Hockey Show - Derek Lalonde cautiously optimistic with his Detroit Red Wing, Bo Horvat rejects Canucks offer, Kris Letang's triumphant return

Episode Date: December 13, 2022

Derek Lalonde, the head coach of the Detroit Red Wings joins Sean and guest co-host Max Bultman to discuss the progression of the Detroit Red Wings, how he is fitting into the Detroit community, his time in Tampa Bay and being a member of the Bills Mafia.Sean and Max analyze Bo Horvat's contract situation in Vancouver, and what teams should be coveting the star center, this trade season, and we stick tap Kris Letang as he makes a successful return to the Penguins lineup after suffering a stroke less than two weeks ago.Subscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowGet a 1-year subscription to The Athletic for $2 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is The Athletic Hockey Show. Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Tuesday show. We are the Tuesday Boys. Hashtack Tuesday Boys, 3Zs. The Athletic Hockey Show. I'm Sean Jantelli. I'm here with, of course, Max Boltman, another week off for Craig Cussons.

He's, boy, I haven't seen him or spoken to him in weeks. He's in Croatia. I think on vacation and one of those lovely, lovely Croatian beaches. That's what he is. He doesn't do any work here. Max, you know this. Doesn't have anything better to do other than to just hang out for days and days on end. So we brought in a plus number one substitute, super sub, Maxie here to

take over for Craig as he usually does and hang out in BS with me. on a Tuesday morning. Hey buddy. And also do you know where customs is? Well, I was just going to say the lengths that some people will go to to skip out on Secret Santa is staggering. It's wild. You guys, I'm sure you guys have some kind of Detroit area athletic Christmas party set up. So, Craig.

Craig walking out on that. I don't know if I actually even should say this. I put in the chat in our athletic chat like two weeks ago. we reviving the Christmas party this year because we used to have one every year for COVID. And no one replied, not one single person. We can get, we can get way far down the weeds on a athletic slack room, you know, protocol or whatever. But yeah, the city, the city channels are a grim spot.

Craig's doing boss stuff. I feel like I should drop the bullshit. He's not hanging out on beaches or whatever. where he was at the baseball GM meetings last week and blah blah blah blah, blah, blah, blah. Doing boss stuff. That's why Maxis here. And also to make up for Craig's absenteeism,

which is for whatever reason you want to attribute it to, it is terminal and relentless. We have Red Wings coach Derek Colon on the show. Big get, can't believe it half. And I think Max, Max, he pulled some strings. Producer Jeff pulled some strings. I had never spoken to Derek Colon until yesterday morning when we take the interview. I'm not going to ruin anything.

We'll save the interview for the interview spot. But I loved him. He seems like a great guy. He seems like a great guy to talk to, right? Like, what of your first? And again, we don't need to linger on this. But what's like the capsule on Derek alone after, you know, 25 or 30? games of him is the big boss over there.

Yeah, I mean, I covered Jeff Blaschell for my entire career up until that. So I was not sure, like, you know, the little dynamic differences of a new coach and what that would be like. But he's super, you know, I think the interview shows it. Really honest, really transparent guy. And he doesn't really beat around the bush on anything. He pretty much tells you exactly what, what he's thinking about, you know, his team and share some fun stories, which, you know, our line of work is, uh,

That's about all you can ask for. So, yeah, I think the interview was good. I think the interview was pretty reflective of how he even is in larger press settings. So I hope people will like it. I think there's some good stuff in there. That is like kind of an underrated part, an underrated shitty part of the gig for us is going through a coaching change, going through your first coaching change as a writer,

you know, whether it's a beat you're on like you or just the guy that you're around the most, which was me with Dan Bilesma, it is nerve-wracking. It is, it is like, and I don't think it's talked about all that much, but the idea of like going from someone who you're comfortable with, you know their rhythms, you know, you know, how they approach, just a work day, right? Like, you know how it's going to go. And then having that kind of thrown up in the air and jumbled around.

Like, who cares about the play? Who cares about the fan phase? You do not know if John Tortorella is going to walk through the door the next day and make your next four years just like a constant stress fest in that room. What was that? Okay. So let's let, well, we have other things to talk about. We're going to talk about the Vancouver Connect situation, even though it involves Bo Horvatt, who is one of the most American, non-American players. I think that's the way we're going to get around this.

We're going to talk about that. We have other things lined up. But I do, Maxie, I do want to hear about this from you. because I don't think, because it was off-season, like we didn't do a show or anything when Detroit was you and I together, when Detroit was looking for a coach. I have a feeling you were nervous about the guy they were going to hire, right? And we knew that it was going to be maybe alone, maybe Lane Lambert. We had an idea that it was going to be an Eiserman guy in some capacity. But again, nerve-wracking.

What was the Red Wings coaching search like for you? I can't believe I haven't told you this story. You might have. You might have. I just don't think this happened. Do you know that they hired him the day I got engaged? Yeah. Okay.

Okay. Yeah. All right. Well, I think I've told that before so that I won't repeat it. But no, you, I think you just, you just told me when, tell it here. You told, you told me when we were BSing about it. Yeah. I mean, I don't think you said it on the air.

Okay. So, I'll give the short version, but basically I was on the phone earlier. that day about something completely unrelated with the Red Wingshead of PR. And just normal beat stuff. And then all in the middle of it, it's in the summer. There's nothing going on. And then in the middle of it, he's like, I got to go. And I was like, not today.

This cannot happen today. Nothing happened for the next couple hours, which was all the time I needed to execute the proposal. And then like, it was like fairly elaborate as far as those things go. If I remember crap. Like there was stuff the way to do it. It wasn't just. It was segmented out. Yeah.

Like, we didn't go down town. It was just like, go somewhere and ask the question. Like, there was a little bit more to it than that. Yeah. With you too.

But the, the, it was kind of split into two halves. So there was, we had kind of, I planned kind of like an instant surprise engagement party. Um, but the proposal or the hiring came down in between those two.

And so it was like, unreal. An hour after I asked like within like 10 minutes of us getting home, uh, had to get right to it. And so the timing actually worked out perfect there. That was the thing I was most. nervous about. But yes, I mean, you heard the loan's name. Throughout the process, there were various different. I mean, Bruce Cassidy, I think, was a guy who it would have made complete sense to come in.

And I've always, in my dealings with Bruce Cassidy really liked him. But there was that whole news cycle about, you know, oh, is he, you know, were the players frustrated by him? And you don't know if, like, you're going to jump right into a situation that you're not actually realizing the dynamic of. I think Barry Trots was another one that was, I mean, he was obviously on the market. I don't know how serious that I ever got. All these guys that were being discussed, like, you were going to get a, you were going to get a nice one for the most part. I think so. Like, those guys are all generally good to deal with.

There was no, like, you know, oh my God, there's five names in one of them is, you know. But there were people who were suggesting a Tororella type. There were people who were like, why not Mike Babcock? Yeah, sure. Bring him. You're trying to cover all this. objectively, but in the back of your mind, you are like, I don't, I don't want to, guys who likes to talk.

I don't want to do this. Especially because Steve Eiserman so much does not like to talk publicly. What are you talking about? He's a great man who wants to answer some questions. Steve Eiserman, famously a happy, chill general manager who loves talking to people. You know who would have been nice in hindsight? You know what? You kind of hit the jackpot on the loan.

He seems. great. What would have been helpful, and it's going to be helpful for possibly somebody else, because we keep talking about this and it keeps not happening. No better coach to cover than Bruce Boudrelle. He's the nicest guy in the world. Super chatty, famously so. He, as of 932 on December 13th, Eastern Standard Time, I always get that screwed up,

is still the coach of the Vancouver Canucks. We're in a state of stasis with the Vancouver Canucks at the moment, but it doesn't seem like that's going to be that way for long. We're talking about potential Brock Bester trade stuff, which we hit on last week. Obviously, the Bidreau question is still hanging over. Oh, my God. I don't know how much longer they can keep this going,

even though they've won some games of late. The big one that dropped on Monday, though, is, of course, the Bo Horvat situation, which was reported out by our buddies Tom Strance and Rick Dallowall. Rick said this on the radio, I believe, on SportsCent in Canada at some point. The Canucks made an offer to Bo Horvatt recently, and it was rejected. The Conucks stretched as far as they could go. As of right now, I believe they've gone as far as they can go. Even the number the Canucks were willing to go to, they would have been over the cap at the end of the season.

Bowes are in their right to hit the free agent market. the Canucks will now take the best offer for Bo. So this isn't, you know, I think we need an important thing to differentiate between here is the report. And again, these are guys we work with and guys we trust. Isn't that they're soliciting offer for Bo and they're listening and, you know, maybe this heats up and maybe this doesn't. It's like, this is going to happen.

And that is the road that Rick and Dranser are leading us down. that this is certainly more likely to happen than not. And it's definitely escalated over the last, you know, a couple days. Yeah, what I took out of it is it doesn't sound like, doesn't sound like one of those things that's tinged with like, maybe a team's leaking that they're going to explore trade to try and grease the wheels here. Like if, yeah, it's a classic, like, let's see what the offers are. If you get pulled over, we'll do it.

If not, we'll hold serve and whatever. That doesn't sound like that's what we're dealing with at the moment. No, and it is a shocking place to be at with, with Bo Horvad, who's obviously the captain of that team. But when you look at, I mean, these things are all related. You know, I'm sure the J.T. Miller contract is an obstacle to getting the Bo Horvett contract done. But it is kind of bizarre to me how a team in the position that the Vancouver Canucks are in can have picked the 30-year-old center over the 26-year-old center.

Even knowing that J-T. Miller had an unreal year last year, I just can't score. I think that's the way that it needs to be framed now, that maybe it wasn't framed in the summer, right? Because there was some uncertainty about what Vancouver's cap number was going to be. There was certainly some optimism over what they're going to look like as a roster and what the results were going to be like. I don't think anybody anticipated the 0 and 7 multiple blown leads catastrophes that, you know, October. was for them. So of course, you're not going to frame it in such negative terms. Like, there's, that's just human nature. When something happens, you're going to automatically give it the benefit of the doubt and we're not going to jump to, hey, did, uh, did Jim Rutherford

just choose J.T. Miller over Beau Horvett? It's not going to happen in July, whatever. But it seems like that's where we're at. And that's the way it needs to be framed moving forward. because I think Jim and Patrick Olivine have gotten a lot of mileage out of saying like, all right, hold on. We got a lot of work to do. Like this is, this wasn't, stuff doesn't happen overnight. Got a lot of deals we want to move. We got a lot of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

We're a year into it now for all intents and purposes. We're a full off season out. They have made their choices in terms of, by the way, in terms of who they kept. and also who they've chosen to not move and whatever. Like this is, this, this roster has a whole lot more of their fingerprints on it now, that regime's fingerprints on it now than it did say three months ago or six months ago or nine months ago. And that is why this is happening. That is why we are having this discussion is because they chose to extend J.T. Miller

after a season that is tough to imagine he'll ever recreate for a zillion years in a trillion dollars. That's why it's happening. And that's why they're talking about trading Bo Horvatt, who's a better player, a younger player. He's also having the best season of his career, which makes this look so, so, so much worse. He lines up better with them from an age standpoint. Check any box, right, on Bo Horvatt versus J.T. Miller. And he's the guy that they should have chosen. And it's clear now, and it should have been clear back in August or whatever,

and maybe it wasn't, wasn't clear enough, that this is the choice they made. It's Miller over Horvath. That's what Jim chose. That's what Patrick Alvin chose. And this is the chickens coming to Roost now because it seems, again, from Dransor and Rick that this is it. Like, he certainly sounds like he's gone and it's being framed in a way that you don't typically see. And they'll get something for him, but I do honestly wonder if it's even as much as you would have gotten for Miller. year. I mean, like, you're going to get, you know, and Drance has written extensively on this.

I think he's spot on every historical precedence as you trade a prime age center as good as Bohor about. You're getting a first-round pick plus, probably getting a first-round pick plus a good prospect for him. So it's not like they're going to get nothing, but I think you'd have gotten that for J.T. Miller. And I think you can still have a younger player. And I think that those two things are more, they add up better than keeping the 30-year-old center and a pick and a prospect who J.T. Miller's all of a sudden 32, 33, by the time those pieces are in the fold. And I think J.T. Miller's a good player. Like, he's, he's, I think the contract you can justify for Colorado or something, who's going to, who's going to take advantage of it in the next three

years. He's still a point per game player this year. He's still plays a playoff style. I just it's bizarre to me for a team in Vancouver situation but and I know you know the Canucks is no shortage of so they were close from moving him at the draft like that that almost happened on the floor to an Eastern conference team I'll say yeah um so this wasn't like they clearly they they pursued other avenues with CATMiller right they had to choose a key him at the deadline and they were close to nailing something down in Montreal at the drafts, and blah, blah, blah, blah. But ultimately they chose him multiple times.

And it culminated with the contract offer. But that was in the summer, I mean, based on, you know, stuff that was coming from around J.T. Miller, I don't think that that was, I don't think that that was a given that that, that offer was going to come from the Canucks. Like I don't, it was certainly not a foregone conclusion that they're going to walk out of this past off season with him locked up for as long as it was. But they did. And now here they are, right?

So in the specifics, just so, just so you folks have them. Because I know not everybody reads everything that goes on, goes up on the site. This is from Rick and Drancer. We believe the club tendered their leading goal score a max term offer that was well shy of $8 million, which like that, it's like timeout. Done. You have a guy like Bo Horvatt, who's the age he is with a track record that he has, coming off the previous contract that he signed, having the season that he's in the middle of, 20 goals on December, on December 13th through 28 games. You're coming well shy of $8 million? This is a thing, though, right now. There are,

and I'm living it in Detroit right now with Dylan Larkin, the generation of centers that bridged to about this age, I don't even know if you can call the Larkin and Horvett deals true bridges, they were fairly long at the time they were signed, those teams do not seem to be in line with where the market for the RFA deals that these guys are getting are. They have not recalibrated with the, and look, If you're, Steve Eisenman knows more about being an NHL executive than what, 99.999% of the population, right?

Certainly more than us. But at some point, this is going to be reality for, it's going to going to need to be reality faced by every franchise where you're like, this is just how much it costs now. And I think, I've said this before and I've said it in a lot of different contexts. this is what we saw for all those years with Sidney Crosby acting as like the kind of unofficial cap on annual values. Like forget that he signed that deal pre-lockout, like all these specifics that went into it. People were itchy about paying players more than him, understandably. Even though we're talking about a deal that was signed more than a decade ago, right? Yeah.

And people just got it in their heads. The ultra-elite players cost $9 million, $10 million, like in the range of the last Patrick Kane deal, like, whatever. Well, and the guys who were setting these, Artemi Panarin, I mean, that, I mean, that was a big deal. But even him is a winger, right? Like, the centers don't get to free agency. It just doesn't happen.

I mean, the only one who did is Tavares, really, right? And he got a huge number. So there's just so little precedent for these guys actually getting to the open market that all the comps, more or less, are extensions or deals that are, you know, RFA, which is a different calculation. So it is fascinating to watch, you know, when I was doing a Larkin comparables thing, which I assume is not that far off of the Orvat comparables at this point, you know, I think it's like Kuznet's off. And it's, I mean, Barzal is the one that both those players, I think are going to. want to use at 9.15. That's it. On the open market, I don't think that's crazy. I think they'd find someone who'd give them that. I also can understand the team's position that like, you know, trying to build something here. Can you not squeeze us for that? And they can give the eighth year.

I mean, the eighth year has to matter at some point. But, but under eight doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I mean, at that point, you're talking in the eights, right? Probably in the high eights. If you're, if you're talking about, say, like, we'll say that, well, Dylan, Lark and Bo Horvatt, they are, say, second, third, first line center, right? Like, they're 10 to 20 in the league. They're not, you know, we can quibble about the specifics there. Like, so are they going to make, they're not going to make McKinnon money, right? They're not going to make $14 million.

But the idea that Vancouver is trying to lock down that that dude, for that amount of money well, well below $8 million. That is not going to work out. And also, like, they're talking out of both sides of their mouth on this, too. And then we're like, this is, this is not unique. This is something we see all the time where they're like, all right, this guy isn't, we don't, do we think he's worth, you know, eight and a half million dollars? Like, no. But they also, according to Drancer and Rick, the club is ideally looking for.

for a package, including multiple young players, ideally centerman and right-handed defenseman in a HortVat trade. So like, all right, you don't think he's worth $9 million, but you want multiple players and the player profile that is hardest to find and most valuable on the ice, which is young center, right-handed defenseman. Like, okay, good luck. You can't have it both ways. You either think that dude is worth paying $9 million a year or something close to it.

or you ask for less. That's just the way it is. And I'm sure they'll get some kind of package that'll be worth it. Because that's usually how it works. Because Maxie, like you said, this is not unprecedented, but pretty close to it to have a player of that caliber, you know, set to hit the market. But at that position, yeah, totally. I mean, you talk about well short of $8 million. Well short of $8 million is what Paige Thompson got.

By the way, that's the phrasing that just like. Well short, yeah. That's what gets me. But Tage Thompson signed for that and he had one, like, serious year. And he looks like a super short. That contract now looks like a steal at 7.15 or whatever it is. But, like, he had one year. That's what you got for one year of doing that.

So Bo Horvats going to get, I would think, at least a million more than that. I don't know. I mean, that's what every time a player like Tage Thompson signs a deal, that's what every GM thinks they can squeeze. a player for. Like they're like, oh, okay, well, that's, of course, we can sign, we can sign the guy. Dryside'll look like a high deal and then it would look like steel. I was like, well, dry style makes this. Right. As if, you know, and you know what, they're probably right because these are hockey players and more often than not, like, they don't make it to market. And when you

resign with your team, you're by definition leaving money on the table. So maybe they, you know, under a different circumstance, you know, this would be posturing. But in, Vancouver's case, it really doesn't seem that way because of how screwed up their cap situation is because of, again, extending J.T. Miller and, you know, whatever they have to think about in the future. And the lead up to it, right? I mean, it's the OEL trade and it's Garland and, you know, Bess are who they're going to have to trade now. Like, just so many little things that, that led into it. And I get how it all happened, right? Like, they were in this weird place where they were rebuilding and then they're all of a sudden, you know, a borderline conference finalist

and then it becomes, try to get it over the hump. But, and I'm not trying to be like a hindsight genius here, but in hindsight, it went the complete opposite way. Yeah, the mix, the mix wasn't it. And this will be the last thing we say about this because we don't need it. I mean, this is, this is the right amount to talk about Vancouver, but we don't want to hit on them for 45 minutes or whatever. We've seen this from Jim Rutherford before. The man does not value caps, as a returned asset. He is, this is fundamental to his being and to the way he views himself and the way he views his job is he, this man is here to win hockey trades. He is here to acquire better hockey players than the ones that he sends out. He doesn't value cap space as an

asset. He doesn't think that when cap space is involved in a deal that you can win it. And that is a huge, huge part of the reason why they are where they are. But the OEL trade, extending Connor Garland, whatever. This is why they are where they are, because Jim is not ever, something changes with him. He's never going to look at cap space and retain salary or whatever and truly look at it as an asset. And that is the mindset they needed to have in the summer. They needed to be willing to send out players for cap,

App space and very little, very little else. If that would have happened, you know, we wouldn't be in the situation because Maxie, you said this, you know, like, get a look. They, current regime, passers, whome, whoever it was, a little bit too much for Connor Garland, adding Oliver Ekman-Larsson, a little bit money there, a little bit money there. And before you know what, you're squeezing Brock Brat, Brock Besser, you're squeezing Boeh-Hort-orvatt for a million dollars where you should.

And you're like, we don't cut the money. And that's where they are. Very, very disappointing stuff. One quick one here before we get to the Lone interview. Who would you rather have if you're the New York Rangers or the Colorado Avalanche? Are you trading for Bo Horvatt, knowing what the asset cost is going to be for that? Are you trading for Jonathan Taves knowing what it's going to be for him? And also that he's got the little higher cap hit right now.

If I'm Colorado, is this a cop out? If I'm the Islanders, I'm trying to trade for Bo Horovat. If I'm Colorado, I'm probably trying to trade for Taves. What about the Rangers? Rangers, Rangers go Horvat. Like, figure out a way, like, those guys have, you know, those teams have a contract structure that makes it a little bit more possible. Whereas, like, because they need pieces put in place, right? And you figure it out if you're the New York teams.

You say, we can add Bo Horvat, we add Bo Horvat. We send out pieces. We make the cap work, whatever. Colorado's in the situation where they don't have to do it. do that. They don't have to sign up. And they don't have the, they don't have the assets. Right. And they, so whatever. You say like, let's figure out a way to

to bring in TAVES or a guy who we don't have to sign for eight years because we don't have to. Right. So I, I think that's it. Let's get Bo to New York. Let's get TAVs to Colorado. Strengthen the Metro division. Just make sure to get ball out of out of Canada. That's the main.

That's the main goal here. Thank you, Maxie. That was good. We're about to talk to your new friend, Derek Colon, who, it should be noted, is not John Tortorella and is not Lane Lambert. He's the coach of the Detroit Red Wings who are, you know, they've leveled up here. We're going to talk to him about it. We have the right dude in the other chair to do it as well, Max Coleman. So stay tuned. We are happy to bring in our guest for today.

Red Wings coach, Derek alone, who, let's see, we're coming off of Bill's win yesterday. That seems like that's an important fact here. How are we doing? I'm good. What did do we think of that game last night? Some nervous moments. I did text my, I was unable to watch it, the first half at least. And I just had to text my guy, Todd Beam, what's going on?

And he does not use his phone during the game. He shuts himself off to the rest of the world. It's how involved. It sounds about right. That sounds about right. It's a smart move. Good win for the Bill's Mafia. There was a point where, so Todd, for those who don't know is the Red Vings ahead of PR.

My early years on the beat, so I'm a big NFL fan. And I've had Josh Allen in fantasy several times. And so I would be trying to text Todd during the game. And at one point, I texted him something, maybe assuming a victim. a little too early and it it was a reversal. And I learned right then to not play that game with Todd. He's passionate. There's no doubt about that.

I'm a big Stefan Diggs guy, Maryland. I'm a terp. Yeah, love it. He let me down from a fantasy standpoint last night. But that's fine. We can move on. Yeah. I mean, so we're coming off of a press conference here, so I don't want to get too redundant

with you. But what's kind of your feeling right now coming off of this road trip? It's a two one and one trip. You'll take that almost every time in the NHL. But these are your measuring stick games right now against the elite teams. What are you learning about your team? Yeah, mixed emotions in some ways. Again, going into it, if we would have, someone told me we would have been two one and one,

taking five of the eight points. I think most teams around the league would have taken that with this type of road trip. But just left a little bad taste to your mouth on Saturday. with only getting the one point. Big pitcher, it's fine, but, you know, that game was just a little too familiar in that. We played a really good five-on-five game. Our compete was there. Our execution for the most part was there.

And then even our execution, overtime was there. We just turned the puck over and just handed it away. So a little frustrating that we left that point out there. We've left too many out there between overtime and the shootout. But all in all, kind of reflects our season good, not great. And what's exciting for me is I think it left the boys wanting a little bit more and maybe have a little bit more of expectations for themselves. I know we've talked about kind of how the various moments that this year where it's maybe

looked ahead of schedule and then you have some nights where it looks like, you know, it looks like, you know, maybe what some people expected. I'm curious, have you kind of gotten to the place where you feel like maybe this is a little ahead of schedule of what you thought when you took the job? Yeah, I've done a pretty good job. I've cautioned my guys about living in the moment. And I've done a good job of doing it for myself and my staff also. But yeah, this feels ahead of schedule.

And, you know, but do you get your moments of reality, you know, until beating Tampa and taking a point in Dallas, you know, we have struggled against the elite lately. And, you know, not play-wise, just finding ways to win. I just think the margin of errors even more thin when you play those elite teams. But, you know, with that said, I like where we're at as a group. I know I keep getting the playoff question time and time, and that's good. We want to get questions like that because that means we're at least in the conversation. But when I talk about being realistic, one of it, a little of it is ourselves as a team.

I want to be realistic. But it's also our conference. And I stated that from day one. I believe we have the 11th win percentage in the league right now. And we're outside the playoffs. And that's no knock on us or our guys. It's almost a credit of where the Eastern conferences and how deep it is. you know, if we were in the West, maybe we'd have a little bit different conversation,

but we went to one-on-one on this road trip and we lost ground. Yeah. And so I just, I want to be cautious in where we're at, you know, kind of keep it in the moment, because I still think there's going to be some rough roads. You know, we talk about all the forward injuries we've had, but knock on wood, we've been very lucky we'll not have many injuries or a few of any on D, and our goal tendings been healthy. So still want to be.

gosh, we have a long ways to go, just looking to be more consistent and stay consistent as a team. I know Max, Max kind of alluded to this, but is there a point during this season where the approach, depending on where you are and the standings will change? Like, are you like, okay, if it's, if it's, if it's January 15th and we're still in the discussion, like, we need to recalibrate here and kind of change maybe the definition of what success is, or is that just kind of an immutable thing like from now until now until the end of the go here. I honestly don't think so. Yeah. It might even be right to the last game of the year if we're still in the mix of flirting with it. And really, it's just, you know, where we're at, we're just,

there's no need to really even talk about it. Again, realistically on where we are as a team, you know, realistically on, you know, where our roster is compared to some of those teams that we will be battling for for those quote unquote last playoff spot. So I think our guys have accepted the fact that we're going to judge ourselves on performance. We're going to judge ourselves in the moment. And so far, there's been good buy-in with it. And it's been real for them. I'm curious, Derek, you know, you're coming from a situation in Tampa where when you guys

brought talented young players in, they were not expected to be huge load carriers for you guys right away. Mikhail Surgich, have a great young defenseman there. You had Victor Headman and Ryan McDonough in front of him. And I'm curious how you think it affects the development or what it does or what the pros and cons are, I guess even of that situation for Lucas Raymond and Merritt Seider, who for you guys are just going to, they're just going to be asked to play a bigger role than in Sergachev obviously played a ton of minutes, but able to be sheltered a little. Well, that's a great question. First and foremost, when you look at Tampa, you have to give the organization a whole on their development of younger players. and that goes to Benoit Gru, the Syracuse staff, it goes to development department.

But it's a little different acclimating young players into a team when your top end is so elite. No matter what forward comes in, you know, people are like, oh, Tampa just grows these prospects on trees. Well, it's easy to come in in a third line, 12-minute roll when Cooch and Pony and Stambert already eaten up all those minutes. It's easy to come in for Sergachev when and these guys played great and they did a great job immediately in the National Hockey League

but when the headman and McDonner are eating all your minutes, it's just different here and that, you know, we've asked Moe to play in every situation 25 minutes, number one power play at times, number one penalty kill the toughest matchup.

Raymond, same thing. Top line, six. It's just, it's a little bit different, but there's still different ways of acclimating young players into the league. And it's a reality of it. It's a different NHL. You have to develop on the fly. And we just, you don't have the luxury of today's cap of, you know, Detroit for years. Guys would play 200 games in the American League that might have been NHL ready.

You just don't have that luxury more. There is a little bit of developing on the fly. and I think we did that in Tampa. It was a great experience for me to see how that was done in Tampa, and we're trying to do the same thing here in Detroit. How does that work for a player like Sider who was just, you know, unbelievable last year? I don't want to say that he surprised people,

but for him to be, you know, on the peripheral of, you know, people were, the expectations for him were outsized, I think, for his second year based on what we saw for him last year. He's in the, people are throwing Norris, you know, discussion talking points around, you know, at the start of the season, how do you, and development isn't linear and we know all that stuff, progress isn't linear with players, but how do you keep him on, how do you even figure out what the track is for somebody who showed as much as we saw from him last season in his second year, and keeping it while keeping it realistic and attainable for

someone who is as great as he was as a rookie? Yeah, I think it's our job as a coaching staff, not to judge him on expectations. Literally his day-to-day game. Perfect example. He was excellent the other day. He was arguably one of the better players on the ice. How can you not leave that Dallas game and be like he's going to be an absolute superstar someday? But it's still judging him on a couple of mistakes, managing his game.

And he's had games this year where he's had high volume of turnovers. He has games where he's done poor with his gaping. He's done games where he's mismanaged the pox, some egregious turnovers. It's just you're treating it on an everyday basis. I think what's different with that type of player, and you don't have the luxury of giving him 150 games in American Hockey League. Great. Practice time.

Like, he still has to develop in practice. Our skating coach was in town today. He spent 30 minutes with the skating coach on top of a 50-minute practice, on top of an extra 10 minutes working the offensive line of the puck. It's just a reality of, is that productive in a day before back-to-back? Not ideal, but where we need him to be in three months, six months, nine months, you might even go back a little bit on playing a back-to-back on what we ask of him today in practice. Again, that's kind of my point on developing on the fly just so it looks a little bit different today's NHL.

Have you seen any kind of frustration from him or from Lucas in terms of, you know, expectations for them maybe even unfairly high coming into the year? Yeah. Unfairly high is real. But yes, there's frustration in both the guys. But I like that because they have high expectations of themselves. And all the grates, when they've gone to being a great, it's usually because of their own expectations. They want to be great. So I think, of course, there's some experience, you know, we're sitting back. as a coach in this league.

Bob Boogner, I haven't played in coached in this league. Alex Tangay coached played 1100 games in this league. We know they're going to go through ups and downs. It's just too hard of a league. Of course, you're right. The superstars, established superstars have ups and downs in their games. A night in and night out. It's just such a competitive league.

So it's not surprising us, but it's new for them too. They're going to have off nights. You're going to have frustration nights. It's how they handle them, how we handle them. and then how you get more consistency in their game. So yes, there has been frustration, but to me, that's just natural progression. Well, you moved here. I think it's really cool.

You chose to live downtown. I can't think of a lot of coaches or even players who are here who have done that. I'm curious, how does that, like, shaped how, you know, your first few months in the city, how you've gotten to know the city, live in downtown. It's been phenomenal. Not ideal because I'm not with my family. We kind of had a pact with my family long ago when you go down this coaching path. We'd always stay together.

And we did that through our moves from Toledo to Des Moines to Tampa here. It was not realistic. School started literally August 3rd in Tampa. And we tried for about 40 minutes to put everything in motion. And it was the most stressful 40 minutes of my life. Remember Jeff Blasheel driving to Tampa, he brought the whole family. and he was going through hell week of getting kids in school, getting their minor hogging. And he's like, he's like, news, you're the smartest guy I've ever met.

So not ideal in that they're here. They're going to make them move. We'll do the suburb thing next year with the family. But it was an easy decision to live downtown. And it was, it's more than I expected. It's been phenomenal. Half our staff lives downtown. Yeah.

You know, drapes last week rolled his eyes. I just couldn't believe we're all living downtown. He's been here. Just people move to the suburb. I live in the Midtown area. These guys live downtown. It's been phenomenal restaurants. Just living the day.

It's, it's been awesome. It's opened my eyes to how great this city is. And it's, it's been a great experience. Can I get a, can I get a restaurant recommendation for Detroit? Because I don't, I don't trust Max when it comes to this stuff. He's led me, he's led me astray before. I'm the Selden.

The Selden is right around the corner in Midtown. I can be exact. A Selden, it's the restaurant right there. It's phenomenal. It says nice and great food, different plates. And I've never shied away from the odd dive bar now and then. There we go. I love it.

Perfect. The cobs are around the corner from me. The Bronx over there in Midtown. Bronx has a great burger. Phenomenal. And it's just, and honestly, they've been great spots. but phenomenal people. Stumbled on to Mario's,

which is literally pitching weddings from my house. Phenomenal restaurant. And it's just, you know, we laugh. We're on a downtown tour, the downtown coaching staff, and it's been, it's been phenomenal.

That's great. So you're, okay, so you're 27 games in here. I'm sure there was an assessment period, you know, of the team in the, after he took the job,

going in the preseason where you have certain ideas about about guys about guys in the team certain expectations i want to know if i'm curious if there's anybody who surprised you in particular in terms of the player you're getting in terms of the guy you're getting like who is the who is this who is the surprise assessment here i would say god a majority of the guys in a good way um some of the the new signings ben shirot uh is giving us way more than what i expected and knowing we were a pretty good player, only matter on what he has given us. Obviously, Kubalik and the offense,

he's given us, David Perron, the new guys mixed in with some of the expectations of the returners. You know, for me, I like judging us on how we're playing. And yes, right now, the wins and losses, the points percentage is well ahead of probably what anyone expected. I mean, you see all the projections. We're well out of it. So that's a positive.

But in the games that we've been successful, we're playing the right way. We're not turning pucks over. I mean, we went through a handful of games. We've literally turned over 17, 18 pucks in a game. The league average is 29. I remember in Tampa, it was almost to a T. If we had 22 or less, we won. And we've been managing the puck.

We've been defending well. You know, we're going through some of these games, even the Toronto law. loss, even the Vegas loss. We literally, with our underlying grade A chances of staff, we're giving up eight, nine chances a game in some of these games. That's a recipe for winning. And is that winning every night? Are we getting results every night?

No. But I think those are kind of foundations that can lead you to success. That's what I'm most excited about in such a short period of time. You mentioned Oli. I covered him when he was in Pittsburgh. that signing to me made all the sense in the world just you know what whether it was Morris or as it turns out he's played it's played Philip Heronick a whole lot what what is that pair Heronic and Mata looked like because we've seen a Heronic in particular looks like a different player

than what we've seen from him the last couple years how much does Oli have to do with that and how much what's the balance like there because those guys have been great I think Oli is a huge part of it and one, Oli is an extremely simple and predictable player. And I think it's easy to play off. And for someone like Phil, who has been predictable and good in his own right this year, right,

just think for him, just knowing where his partner's going to be at all times, where he's going to be on breakouts, they just support each other very well. So I think Oli Mada has been a huge part of heroic success. Hey, with Puran, yeah, obviously he's coming off to 1000.

game milestone. We've been asking guys about him around the room. Sunkvis was saying the second he enters a room, you know he's there because he's always talking and he's loud. What is he always talking about? This is come up. Hockey and his passion and it's and it's awesome. And he, I knew he was a pretty good player, obviously his offense, what he's done for our power plays, exceeded expectations. But he just, his passion is real. You know, sometimes guys have to talk themselves into the fight. Some guys, you have to, as a staff, a little kick to get them going. Every night he brings it.

He's passion. He wants to win. He has expectations about himself. He's expectations about the team. He has expectations on how we practice. And I think it's been eye-opening and great for this group. I mean, we were in game two. and we're talking about being a calm bench, being a quiet confidence.

And he was helping it. We were unraveling a little bit against New Jersey. And he was the first guy that, hey, everyone relax, calm down. And then the guys did it. And then the next shift, he screamed at the ref. He screamed at a teammate, we're not giving him the puck. He's screaming at me. But that's him.

Like, that's real. That's passion. And when someone comes off like that, I have all the time in the world for. And I think he has been a huge part of our early success. You talk about the calm bench. And I know that's something you, I think you joked about it earlier this year. You know, early in your career you were questioning every other call. And now you'll go several games without talking to a rev.

How conscious is that, though, to set that kind of, it seems like you guys are a calmer team than what I've covered in the past. Well, one, I think is important. I've seen what it can do success-wise in Tampa, not only during the regular season, but those playoff games when it really mattered when the line of winning and losing is so tight. And when you handle that adversity in a game six or a game five on the road and things are unraveling, when our bench is calm, when our staff is calm, I think it just kind of feeds through the team. And I talked about that with the group early on.

And our leadership core actually came to me and brought up fact that it was needed. In the past year, there was times they felt they got caught up in the moment and I'm running again. It's only 27 games. But we've made it a habit of ourselves that we're going to let things roll. We're not going to say anything to the ref. It's going to be done properly through a captain. You're going to have your moments where you're going to talk through things with a ref or you're going to get emotional or excited. but manage those emotions.

And for the most part, I think of a group as a group we've done that. And I think it's benefited us. Awesome. Got anything else, Sean? No, I, that's funny. I always, you know, watching, watching you guys in Tampa, that was always a vibe that I got from watching, you know, whether it's what it's John, the assistance, it felt like you guys knew when to hit the button at the right time when it came to,

whether it's rough stuff, you know, all that. Is that, is that one of the, is that something you carried over from the lightning? Or is that, or is that, yeah. Yeah, and pushing, you know, you got to stick up for your teams at time. You know, I've even had the conversations, refs this year. You know, don't take advantage of me because I don't yell and scream on every single play. So I do think it's something. I think it's part of team success.

It doesn't happen all the time. Your emotions are going to get to you. And I go back to a story as my first American Hockey League head coaching job. and, you know, like Max talked about early in my career, like any young coach, those emotional times, I'm like the most calm coach in the first 25 games in Iowa, worked hard on it, didn't say a single thing to the ref as I'm still building relationships as refs too. And we had this game and we absolutely were on the awful side of some calls, some inexperienced

reffing. I didn't say anything. And my GM comes in and yells at me. for not saying word to the refs. He goes, well, of course they're giving us bad calls on night when you just sit there admire their work. And I'm like, I just spent two years reeling this in. And now you're yelling at me for not yelling at the refs.

But over 82 games in the long run, rest of want to hear from me, first year head coach. I think in the long run, I'm still trying to build some credibility in a group. And as a team, we are too. And so far, it's only 27 games, but our group's been really good in that aspect. I'm going to sneak one more in here. I remember earlier in the year you talked about obviously never supposed to have favorite players, but you had a particular affinity for Anthony Sorrelli and Andre Palat in Tampa. Do you have a favorite Sorrelli or Palat story that's fit for the podcast?

No, Sorrelli, but Sorrelli is just that person. I wanted to two-fold. He came in the league young. I'm doing a lot of one-on-one meetings to develop. but my favorite Shirelli one was he was not allowed to cut his hair unless he okayed it through me or Brandon Point. And I know we joke about it, but not only we were helping Anthony mature as a hockey player, we were helping mature as a young man.

And one day he came in with an awful Amish haircut. Oh, no. Again, he sure was a good haircut. I like any hair. But I remember I remember Pointer comes in He's like, you talk to your boy yet? You talk to your boy yet?

And I'm like, oh, no. And then I come in and he comes in and he's got this awful haircut. And Pointer goes, I'm like, pointer, that's on you. He's like, I thought he okayed it with you. So we're all pointing fingers. So from that point on, Anthony Schrelli was not allowed to get a haircut

without being either approved by Pointer or myself. And I kind of joke we had that same thing with Oscar Sunquist this year. Oscar had the really long hair. That's what I like you talked about that with Oscar. Like this is where like you know that you know that how important it is to guard the hair. He lost like our next two games and maybe it's another something else I got from John Cooper. But before our second Stanley Cup, Victor Hedman cut his hair.

And Victor Hedman had the same Swedish long hair going. And Victor cuts his hair short and Coup comes ray in the office. She's like, well, we're done. We're not one to extend a cup of this. And it's just funny. It was maybe just having a little fun with it. But that's the one Anthony Sorrelli story that just love the kid. Because he's real.

He's unbelievable human being. So, yeah, Sorrelli was one of my favorites there. Well, the obvious follow up to that is, does Philip Peronik have a rule in place about the mustache then, given how well he's played? He might have to get that back. Actually, his play continued pretty well after cutting it. But there was a little swagger. spark to him when he had those handlework. I think there's some truth to that. I think that's real. That's great. Derek, good luck with the rest of the schedule. I know you have a, you got another

full week coming up. There's no rest for the weary. It's Carolina. It's, it's Minnesota. So good luck with the games and good luck with playing haircut police because that's, that's clearly a very important part of the job. Not an easy job. Not an easy job. Thanks guys. Great stuff from Derek and Max. Aside from his emergence as, you know, the preeminent hair cop in the NHL. We heard a lot of the word cautious. We heard a lot of the word optimism from Derek. Is that, as somebody who's around that team every single day? How about this? I think something the people who watch them less are still trying to figure out how sustainable this is. We talked to Derek about that. As

a dude who covers his team. Like, where are they in terms of, is this true talent level that we're seeing? Or is it more likely than not that they fall off at some point here moving forward? Well, fall off of the playoff spot, I think so. I mean, and I actually don't even know if they're in there as of this morning. I love that. I love, by the way, how much, how much he was like, yeah, we're not really worth. Like, he, if you're the coach of a team that's outpacing expectations like that,

you can't say like, yeah, we're all in. If we miss out on this, it's going to be a disappointment. Right. And you also can't say like, yeah, this is, this is, this is, you know, we're, we're in over our skis here. You got to find the balance. And I think he, I think he managed to do that. I, not to interrupt.

No, but I think there's, there's truth to it too. I mean, in the one thing that I think the tricky part is going to be is that the guys who have let him here are mostly on short contracts, right? I mean, even Larkin does not have an extension as of right now, like we talked about. Prahran's got two years. Maada's on a one year. Kubu Leaks on a two year. And that's where it's important.

That stuff we talked about with him about Raymond Insider. Like, if those guys were the ones who were carrying them to this record, I think the overall level of, like, you know, confidence that this is all, the corner has officially been turned would be maybe more. firm, I guess. You got, you know, cop and charot, like those guys are on deals with some decent term. So like the fact that, you know,

I don't think you need to worry, you know, more about the fact that they're involved in this. But I would say Peron is probably, Peron and Huso, probably been the two biggest drivers and Hussauds got three. Peron's got two. That's where the,

the question is, is like, you know, what happens when Peron's not there? Is that going to set you back again? But that's what they're trying to do with developing on the fly. And I like that answer from him. They got more of it to do.

It's not just cider and Raymond, that's for sure. Ed Vinson's on his way. Marco Casper's on the way. And Carter Mazur at the University of Denver has turned into a pretty good prospect there. So they're going to have to develop on the fly to do this. I still don't see him as a playoff team. But I think on the arc, I do think it's trending in the right direction. And I agree, it's starting to look like they're ahead of schedule.

Certainly ahead of the schedule I had. mapped out for them, even if it doesn't include the playoffs this year. You hear that they've deviated from the Boltman plan. The Bolt plan, come on. Oh, shit. It was right there. Oh, my God. Too early.

Yeah, thanks again to Derek. We've got one more segment coming up for you. It is not quite the only good segment on the show. It's a little bit different because we're going to focus on me and Maxie here. So stick around. We'll hit that in a second. This is not the only. only good segment on the show. We're taking a break from the comment section. Come back strong.

You ready whenever Craig comes back. It's just standard bullshit like the rest of this, I guess, now. Whatever. Max, is Chris LaTang man or machine? That is my question. After watching Penguin Stars last night, comes back 10 days, 11 days, less than two weeks after his second. stroke leads the penguins a nice time. Like, what are we? I think we did talk about this last week to some extent, Haley and I did. Mainly because of the difference that we saw between, because I was around, I was in Pittsburgh whenever Chris Tang had his first stroke. I mean, that was all hands on deck. Terrifying day. Like, everybody was, there was a lot of questions over how it happened and what came next.

and whether we'd seen the last of Chris Lattang in a hockey sense. And then second time around, it's like, no, he'll, he's day to day. He'll be back like he, like he, you know, sprained his, sprained his, sprained his, uh, sprained his wrist a little bit. Like, yeah, 10, 10, 14 days. And he comes back and looks undeniably like himself. And plays 27 minutes. I mean, it's a good team, by the way.

Yeah. This isn't just some, this isn't just some blow off. you know, Tuesday night game against Ducks or whatever. The stars are a legitimate playoff caliber team. And Lattang comes in.

What do you say? What was it? What was the number there? 2735. Oh, God. Both special teams. You know, played more at even strength

than any other penguin played. Oh, I like that. I didn't drill down the number. 21, 27, just at even strength. The next highest penguin's overall ice time was Dumlin at 2038 total. I guess here's the one thing I want to say about this specifically.

And I've seen people frame it this way, understandably because there is, God, we've seen it for years. We've seen it in a lot of different toxic, you know, kind of with a toxic framework to it. that this is play hurt hockey culture, you know, valorizing something that shouldn't be valorized. And I don't, and this may be overly credulous in me,

I don't see that when I look at Chris Sattang coming back after 11 or 12 days. Like this is an organization and a medical staff that's been through it before. This is a player who's eminently aware of the risks that he's, you know, just of the condition that he, he's that he's living with and playing with on a day-to-day basis. And I have, there's no doubt in my mind that if there were a legitimate, elevated risk for Chris Letang moving forward, you know, that we, we wouldn't, we wouldn't be seeing him. Now, like, maybe, maybe he shouldn't be, if you have issues with him playing at all, like, whatever.

I guess I'm, I'm not going to convince anybody there, but it's his body. You have to grant him some level of autonomy over, over, you know, know, the choices that he makes for himself and also trust the medical staff, again, that is, that is dealt with this, not just with Chrisa Tang, but with Pascal Dupree, who had, who had blood cladding issues, like, this is, this is a group, this is a medical group that, you know, has had to deal with some, with some heavy duty stuff, not even just with this player specifically. So, I don't know, I'm weirdly comforted by the fact that it's a regular season game. If it was playoffs, I'd be much more inclined to be like, you know, what kind of

risk of the tip? That's almost it. That's almost it, right? Like, he came back so fast. that you're like, what would the, what's the point? It swings like that far back in the other direction where you're like, okay, he could have just waited another week or another 10 days or another month or whatever and still have been fine. But the fact that he didn't and the fact that he came back so quickly, that lends itself for in this weird, you know, maybe kind of circular logic where you're like, he must be, he must be okay if he came back that quickly.

So happy to see Chris back on the ice. I mean, he's a guy who, dude, plays harder. Plays harder than anybody wants to play forever. And I hope he does, honestly. Because Masterton Lock, by the way, at this point. You think so? I would think so. Hmm.

I was calling, we were calling Alex Steylock the lock at the start of the season, but he's gotten hurt again. I guess that, I guess that's it, right? I don't know. We'll see. I feel like I'm not. I'm not there yet. I'm a prisoner at the moment.

You know that about me. It's the one thing I always say about you. Maxie, what's the other thing that we want to hit on before we get out of here? There is one other bit. Yeah, I think we should talk about a little bit on the board of goves. Maybe not earth-shattering that six weeks after the initial salary cap projection, which is that the cap could go up as much as $4.5 million next year,

that there's not an update on that. It has only been six weeks, but I think there's probably something encouraging. about that, that, you know, potentially still on track for that. I think that's great for the sport. I think there are teams like the Vancouver Canucks who can really use it for a number of reasons. And I think it's going to be good for, I mean, the potential progression, when Elliot

Friedman first reported on this about two months ago, it could potentially be up $8.5, $9 million from where it is now within three or four years. That's huge. And I think as much as people have gone. gotten frustrated with the, you know, cap shenanigans that teams like Tampa and Vegas have used to stay as loaded as they are. I think it's really good for the sport when great teams are able to stick together and we're able to kind of see their full kind of dynastic potential. I don't love to continue to see Andre Pallat in Tampa along with these guys. And honestly,

they may not have even been able to afford him with this cap increase, given how much they gave Sorrelli and Sergachev to stay, which happens when you got great players. But I do think it's good for the game. I think it's good for the sport when great teams are able to see how much they got in them. That is kind of a fun thought exercise. We're like, if this would happen last season, do we just see Sorrelli and Serrelli and Sergachev get more or like proportionally more? Is that enough to keep those guys around?

I think that is kind of a fun. It's a fun way to look at it. the the way I look at I agree with you like this is this is good for the sport it's good for it's good for dynastic teams or teams with dynastic potential this kind of goes back to what we were talking about with the with the Canucks you know in the first segment four and a half million dollars this year eight nine down the line okay the time for excuses is is over like we especially if that holds god for bid nothing else catastrophic happens that drops down in revenues again, which would throw everything

out of whack as happened in 2020. The age of GMs being able to hand-wave their cap issues and just saying like, well, flat cap, we were not not anticipating for this over. Not an excuse anymore. If it jumps up $4.5 million for the 23, 24 season, like goodbye excuses. do better work, figure out your, figure out your salary structure, do what you got to do, and then move on. Like, you're wearing this now in the way that, in the way that Jim Rutherford and Patrick

Olivine are wearing the Canucks roster. Can't go through the BS again. Max, you've got to go. You've got a very full day. I know you've got a Red Wings game. You got a national team thing that you're going to. What's up? What's up with that?

Yeah, just the USA. selection camp, so I'm going to jet out there now and see how the U.S. World Junior is. Very American activity of me as I host on the Tuesday show. God bless you. What a way to spend one of your last 12 days, 12 days before.

12 days of Christmas. What is the 12th one? Partridge in the pear tree, I think? I don't know. That's the first day. That's the first day. Oh, duh. Duh, says producer, Jeff. Thanks, buddy. Absolutely.

Tomorrow on the show, Rob Piso, Michael Russo, Jesse Granger. Welcome to John Shannon to the Wednesday roundtable this week. John Shannon, long-time Canadian TV exec. Legend of the business, he's got some wild stories. Let's see what kind of stuff he shares. Also, Max, you and Corey have a new prospect series. Ep coming on Friday, anything you need to share about any plans for that? Are you just, you guys just...

I think safe bet we're going to talk about this selection camp. There you go. That's what you're doing. Also, don't forget to subscribe to the athletic hockey show on YouTube. YouTube.com at sign, not the words, at sign. The actual shift number two. At sign, the athletic hockey show. Follow us on your favorite podcast platform.

Leave a rating and review, only if they're good. And of course, Max, can you believe it? The offers back annual subscription to the athletic are just $2 a month for a year. Return. Wow. When you visit Theathletic.com, Hockey Show. Our guest next week, Flyer Legend, broadcaster Chris Tarian, who wrote a wonderful book that we're going to talk about with Craig, supposedly. We'll see about that.

It's your final show of 2022. Thank God. Merry Christmas from the Tuesday boys. Hashtag Tuesday Boys, 3Zs. And to quote you on him. Bye.