The Athletic Hockey Show - Discussing the ten most likeable players in NHL history

Episode Date: August 12, 2021

Ian Mendes and Sean McIndoe spend this episode concocting a list of the ten most likeable players in NHL history. Who are the shoo-ins? Who doesn't make the cut? Do you agree with the list they ended up with?Email your thoughts to [e-mail], or leave a VM at [phone]!Save on a subscription to The Athletic: theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

All right, welcome back, everybody. It's another brand new edition of the Athletic Hockey Show, as always, on a Thursday. It's Ian Mendez and Sean McHenand do with you. And, you know, we want to try something a little bit different here. You know, we get bogged down, I think, during the course of the hockey season, the hockey cycle. Even into July, you got the expansion draft and the entry draft and free agency. We get so bogged down to the minutia of, you know, news and stuff. We sometimes don't get a chance to just do something.

something kind of broader, more fun. I would say let our hair down, but the two of us, we don't really, I don't think we can with the haircuts that we have. So we want to try something different. So in the month of August, we're going to try some themes. And I'll tell you what, to kick off this theme for this episode here in August, Sean and I are going to talk about something that I think Sean is going to be really difficult to try and nail down.

Because I think finding 10 villains in hockey history, that's no problem. Right? We've got a lot of hated players. Finding 10 likable guys, that's going to be a challenge. So I like this. You came up with this idea. And I know you've kind of played around with this kind of in the modern sense. But how big of a challenge do we have on our hands in this podcast to come up with the definitive list of the 10 most likable players in NHL history?

Yeah. It's a tough one. And let's be clear on what we're trying to do here. This is, we're trying to come up with the 10 most likable. That's not necessarily to say the 10 universally beloved. Because I know the second that podcast hits the airwaves, somebody will be tweeting us to explain why. No, actually, they hate this guy. Yeah.

And they'll have some whole story about, you know, there's some hooking penalty in a regular season game in 1983. it wasn't called and it just ruined their whole fan experience. So we accept and acknowledge that everybody out there has got somebody that for whatever reason they don't like. But we're going to try to come up with the guys that we think would show up on the fewest of those lists. And it's it's not easy because hockey fans, boy, we, we love to pick guys and point our fingers and say, I don't like that guy.

Yeah, that's all we do. So listen, that's what that's, yeah. That's the theme of the show here today. It is, can we come up with a list of 10 likable players that, boy, it's hard to find a reason to hate them. So like I said, we're just doing something different. So the usual segments that we have on this show, i.e. Granger things with Jesse Granger or this week in hockey history, we're just going to put those on pause until we come back after Labor Day. Those will get back to them, but these are going to be some fresh kind of just different ideas.

So we thought, let's do 10 likable players. And I think what we need to figure out, though, like you said, Sean, it's going to be hard to say using the term universally loved, that's a slippery slope. Because like I said, someone's going to say some Flyers fans going to hate Mark Andre Fleury. And that's going to be the end of it. So I guess when we when we're going through the criteria here, let me throw out one thing for you. Could anybody on this list have ever been suspended? Like once you get suspended, it's clear that you've done something. egregious and then that the, you know, you've hit somebody from behind or you've done something

so bad that people aren't going to like you. So do you think by the time we come up with our 10 players, will anybody on this list have been suspended in their career? You know what? I wouldn't rule it out. I don't think a suspension automatically disqualifies you. I think there are some players in an initial history that were very physical, tough players, maybe played even on the line, occasionally went over it that would potentially fall into the category of players that, at least by the end of their career, were pretty universally liked. So I'm not taking anyone off the list if I see a suspension on the track record, but you do have to look at that because I will tell you from experience,

and this will come up with a few of the players we were maybe going to talk about. There are some incidents that the fans in general, the broader fans around the league probably have forgotten all about that certain fan bases still carry a grudge over. So you've got to keep those in mind. You might look back and go, oh, yeah, that guy got suspended. Three games. I barely even remember that. Probably not a big deal.

There could be a fan base out there going, oh, no, that absolutely was a big deal. And we still remember it. He should have got 30 games. And then, you know, they will fill up your timeline for the rest of the day. So I'm not taking anyone off the list for suspensions, but we might have to tread carefully. if we see anybody in that category. Now, and where are we going to land on, I'm going to use a couple of guys who are maybe the most iconic players in hockey history,

a Wayne Gretzky, a Bobby Orr. Like those guys are, you know, they are revered. Do they end up potentially coming on this list? Like, at the end of this list, do Wayne Gretzky and Bobby Orr end up on our list of the 10 most likable players in NHL history? See, this is tough. And this is where you sort of get into,

what does it mean to be one of the most likable players in history? Are we talking a snapshot of right now where I think, yeah, who doesn't like Bobby Orr today in 2021? But during their careers, in the NHL, the best player in the league at any given moment is never universally beloved. There will always be people who find a reason not to like the guy. I, Bobby Orr, back in the 70s, hated by Montreal Canadiens fans, hated it by fans of other teams that he was lighting up.

You know, who is this kid, this flashy kid? He doesn't even play defense. He doesn't know how the position's supposed to be played. Wayne Gretzky, oh my goodness. I mean, there were just a million fans out there who didn't like Wayne Gretzky when he was lighting it up back in the 80s. Setting aside the fact that Calgary Flames fans would never put an oiler on. their list of players that they like.

Today, yeah, absolutely. Liked, respected. Gretzky, I think, is a guy that, you know, the last time he made anyone mad was probably at the 2002 Olympics when he did his little heel turn for Team Canada. Bobby Orr, I would say, right up until he started opening his mouth about his political views, was as close as you might come.

But during their careers, yeah, they probably weren't there. Okay. So then the other category that, we may have some problems with is guys that started their careers and were sort of hated. And then we sort of slowly warm to them. And I'll use a couple of examples. Roberto Loongo would be a great one where, you know, Roberto was the guy that I think in Vancouver he was polarizing. He sometimes said some things. And then he was like the best

example of how you can use social media to change the narrative around you. People love Roberto Luongo now. And Yer Mierre Jor is another one, Sean, who kind of sulked his way out of Pittsburgh and you're like, man, this guy's moody and he's sullen. And then all of a sudden, it kind of comes back with the Rangers. And then he's like this mercenary bouncing around to team to team and there's the traveling joggers and everyone loves him. So what about guys that at one point you're like, man, I hate that guy. And then by the end, you're like, oh, he's, he's pretty cool guy. I like him. How do we balance those things as we come up with this list of likable guys? Yeah, that's, again, that's a tough one. That's where you get to okay. Are we talking right now?

or are we talking through their career? Because Yeager especially, I mean, this was a guy that for the first decade of his career, the idea that he would ever be on a list of universally liked players would have seemed completely bizarre. Even before the breakup with Pittsburgh, when this guy came in, his first few years in the league,

he was the prototypical flashy European in an era where that was not something that everybody was into. You know, he came in and he had the long hair and the fancy moves and the personality and who does this guy think he is. I mean, this guy's going to come in like he's some sort of, he's 21 and he's going to strut around like some sort of star. There were an awful lot of players or an awful lot of, well, an awful lot of fans, maybe some players too, who did not like Yarmur-Yager, didn't like him as the poster child of this new wave of NHL stars. And you're right It really wasn't until the second act When he came back

That I think people Really started to appreciate this guy And then the numbers got up there And everyone kind of collectively realized Like oh my goodness We're talking about one of the all-time greats In the history of this league And he's got some personality

And yeah, so the hair was fun Why were we mad at him about his haircut? Now universally beloved I don't know I think there are some fans Even in Pittsburgh who might say I'm not sure. This guy is supposed to come back and sign with us.

And he went to the flyers. I forget that guy. And, you know, certainly some fans probably of other teams, probably some fans in Washington who didn't enjoy that whole experience. So, yeah, I don't know if he makes the list. But he's definitely, if you were going to chart a guy, Yeager's got to be one of the only guys that at some point in his career was probably top five most hated player in the league and also top five most loved player in the league in the course of the same career,

which it helps when your career spans about four decades. Yeah. Do you remember when he had in the early 90s, he had like some peanut butter in Pittsburgh? He had the peanut butter thing. It's on YouTube. Go find it. There's a news report of him with his peanut butter. There was some weird company that that's all they did is they made like weird grocery products

associated with athletes. But yeah, I mean, the Yager's solution. loot used to drive people insane. Exactly. People could not stand that this guy had his own celebration. Like, what is this? Is this the WWF? You're telling me you've got your own taunt.

When Danny Markov did it to him at the end of the playoffs in 99, when the Leafs beat the Penguins and Markov looked down the eyes. So we thought that was the greatest thing that we had ever seen because somebody was feeding it right back to him. I mean, he was a full on heel for the first day. decade of his career outside of Pittsburgh and sometimes even inside of Pittsburgh. And the fact that he then came back and sort of became this guy that, and the great thing about that is,

I don't feel like Yer Mieger changed. I feel like we all changed. This wasn't a guy who came back and went, you know what, I'm putting aside what I used to be and I'm going to, you know, become a new guy and he had the whole redemption. It was the rest of us going,

you know what? Yeah, the salute was pretty cool and the mullet was pretty cool. And we were wrong and he was right and we all sort of came around on it. Okay, so maybe Yarmar Yager is going to be one of those guys that we have on the fence. But let's start this off by maybe coming out with the slam dunk names. The names that we think absolutely unequivocally are going to end up on our final list of the 10 most likable players in NHL history. I'm going to start with this one for you. Sean, you tell me if this is a lock-it-in-in slam dunk, Jerome Ginnla.

It should be. I mean, I, it, Ginnla is one of those guys. And he maybe is at the top of the list of guys who were real physical, guys who fought, guys who did all the sort of stuff that when you play that way, you would think you're going to leave some fan base somewhere that's mad at you about something. And in Ginnla, maybe, maybe there's a fan base out there that's mad at Jerome McGinla about something. And we'll hear about it. But I don't, you know, it's even Edmonton, which, you know, Edmonton and Calgary are two of those teams where it's very hard to find a guy for this list on either team because you figure the other fan base blocks it.

I mean, you can't pick anyone from the 80s Oilers because the or from the 80s and 90s flames because of the Battle of Alberta, there's going to be another fan base is going to jump up and go, no way, you can't have that guy on your list. I don't even feel like Oilers fans hate Jerome Gidla. And then maybe it's because he was, you know, he was an Edmonton guy. You know, you look at all the things that maybe could have created some of those bad feelings. And, you know, when we thought he was going to, which way to go? We thought he was going to Boston one year at the trade deadline. And he went to Pittsburgh. And he went to Pittsburgh.

Okay. So maybe you say Boston fans are going to say, wait a second. All right. What happened there? This guy was supposed to be for us and he goes to a rival. But then he ended up playing for Boston. later in his career. So that was okay. And, you know, when he went to Colorado, he wasn't very good in the day or the L.A., but left gracefully, no problems left behind, no cap hits or anything like that.

I don't think anyone hates Jerome McGinnla. The one piece of it that I'm kind of worried about is, are there American fans out there that still have that bitterness over the gold medal game? and the fact that Iggy being the guy who set up Sydney Crosby, but even that, I mean, you're, then you're, you're mad at Crosby, aren't you? I mean, if you're going to be mad at somebody for scoring a goal, which is kind of dumb, but you're going to be mad at the guy who scored it, not the guy who made the great play to set it up. I don't know. There's probably a few fans, maybe for his international play on Team Canada, 2002 and 2010.

But other than that, I can't imagine that there's anyone out there that doesn't like Jerome McGillow. Yeah, that's what I think too. And I think especially the fact, like you said, and maybe it's different if the Flames and Oilers met in the playoffs when Jerome McGinnla was in Calgary. Maybe we're having a different conversation. But I think about the way he played the game.

I looked it up. I don't believe he ever got suspended, which probably tells you all you need to know about the way he played the game. You think of that fight with the Cavalier and the Coppin 04. Like he just, I just don't think that there's people that hate Jerome McGinla. So I think he's a lock it in, you know, write it in Sharpie he's on.

Now I'm going to throw another name at you. And when I threw this out on Twitter earlier this week, Sean, I threw this name out on Twitter. And the guy, so I threw out the idea on Twitter, hey, give me your list of the 10 most likable players. And fans, you know, tweeted back at us with, you know, hundreds of submissions. And what I loved is one fan tweeted back, well, not one.

Many fans tweeted back Tammu Salani. And what I love, Sean, is that Tammu Salani himself liked one of the tweets. Oh, nice. In which he was tagged. I'm like, okay, Tameu Salani is aware of this, this episode of the podcast,

a likable podcast. Okay, wait a say. So you're telling me, Timiselani searches his own name on Twitter. No, somebody tagged him. I don't like that. I don't like the guy. He's off.

He's off the list. Get off Twitter, Timo, and you'll. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like Timoselani is another guy. That is, and had his best years with the Jets, this, again, falls into my, my theory that nobody hates the Winnipeg Jets, which was a great theory right up until the playoffs this year,

and they blew it to smithereens for me. But, you know, everybody likes that 90s team. And, yeah, again, early 90s, you know, when he was coming in, scoring 70 goals that rookie year, the flashy European, did the celebration, broke the record that belonged to Mike Bott. Good Canadian kid.

Mike Bosse. And here this finish kid comes in. And after he spends four, he gets drafted, he signs an offer sheet. He doesn't come to the NHL for four years. What is he too good for this league? Or what's going on? So maybe early on, there was a certain type of fan that maybe could have worked himself up on this guy. But it was, he was so fun to watch.

The personality was there. And then, again, of course, later in his career, when the personality really started to shine through, the later years in Anaheim, seeing him get the cup. you know, had had some good years in San Jose. We won't talk about Colorado. That year never happened. But I feel like Timu's certainly on the list right now. If we really went and dug back in the 90s, we could probably find a few fans who maybe didn't like the guy.

I know there were some big rivalry games with the Canucks where things went a little bit sideways that he was in the middle of. But I don't think any of those grudges could still be standing today. Everybody loves Timo. Yeah, I think even when Anaheim beat Ottawa for the Cup in 2007, I think one of the things that softened the blow for Ottawa fans was like, wow, you know what, I don't hate Tame Mussolani. At least that guy got a cup out of it. So I think there was a little sense of, you know, he's a likable guy.

And I don't think Ottawa fans hate Tammu Salani, even though his team beat Ottawa for the cup. You know, the other thing that's going to come up with at least some of these guys is a lot of them had their breakthroughs on one team, a chief start of a team, and then there was a bad breakup with that team. Even though a lot of fans will eventually kind of come around and forgive, there's cases where fans of the original team will go,

no, I'm not on board with this guy because he left. He wanted out. Team of Salani didn't want out of Winni. Team of Salani wanted to be in Winni. And he was very upset when he got traded. So it was, you know, even that, can't be held against him. Timu's got to be on the list.

You know, I feel like you just casually dropped in that Salani had some good seasons in San Jose. And I feel like people don't realize, like, okay, here's the question for him. Who's the guy that people don't realize played for San Jose? Tamu Salani or Ed Belfort. Yeah, there's, I mean, Salani had some good years in San Jose. And it was years, like, plural. He wasn't just there for a quick cup of coffee the way that. that, that, that, that Belford just showed up there so briefly.

But, uh, you're right. It's, it's, it's, there's, there's, that might be the longest stint where a player played well for a team that people don't remember outside of that market. It's like, you know, for me at least, I think a salani, it's like he goes from Winnipeg to Anaheim and then he's just in Anaheim for the next 30 years or whatever it was. Yeah. It's, it's, you know, the, the, the Colorado thing I know happened, but I, I've, I've, I've, put it out of my mind, but you almost forget all about the San Jose thing.

But he found his way home and it was pretty great story. Okay, so we got Jerome McGillan, Tamey Salani, I think fairly comfortably on this list. And you mentioned we won't talk about the year that Tammu Salani went to Colorado, but he went there with Paul Korea. And Korea's name, Sean, is another one that has come up repeatedly. When we put this out on social media and we said, give us a guy who belongs in the list of the most likable players. Paul Korea came up a bunch of times.

So does Paul Korea fit the bill? I think he should. The question here, and I just kind of referenced it with Timoslani and the way that he left Winnipeg, where are Ducks fans on Paul Korea? Because that was a very nasty breakup. In 2003, they go to the Stanley Cup final, one win a way. way from a Cinderella Stanley Cup and then over a contract, Paul Korea not only leaves the team, but he leaves $10 million on the table so that he can go sign with Colorado for $1 million

because he wants to win a cop in Colorado. There were a lot of real bad feelings among Anaheim fans with the way that went down. Not all of them directed at Paul Korea. I think Brian Burke was the GM back then and there was a lot of people who were upset at management, but there were at least some that were mad at Paul Korea. So if I'm hesitant here, it's that I feel like there might be some Anaheim fans still holding the grudge, but I don't think there can be many. And this is a guy that, and he has to some extent reconciled with the Ducks franchise since.

So you can kind of leave some of that behind, I think. And the rest of it, yeah, I mean, just one of the all-time greats, great fun to watch. total gentleman on and off the ice, all sorts of international success. I can't remember any controversy or anything involving them. So with that caveat that I'm a little bit concerned, I'm going to hear from a few Anaheim fans, I think he's on the list too.

Yeah, and I think, look, he got his number retired at the Honda Center eventually, right, to whatever 2018. So I think a lot of that sort of, you know, they put the past behind them. And when I think of, I think of Korea, you know, the only nasty incident I can think of, he was the victim, right? He was the victim of the Gary Souter. Gary Souter, yeah. Cross check.

And I always wondered, too, if that doesn't happen, I mean, does Canada win the gold medal in Nagano? Like, Paul Carrillo was one of the best players in the game. Yeah. Yeah, he was. And he, you know, he got taken out. And the other thing with Korea is that incident and some others, his career obviously cut short by injuries and concussions. We all remember the Scott Stevens hit. And towards the end of his career and after his career was over, he had some bad feelings towards the league and towards the game and how it was run.

And he shared some of those publicly. And I remember at the time there was some pushback on that. You know, again, we're hockey fans. All we do, we do two things all day. We complain about hockey and we get really mad at anyone who complains about hockey. And I know there were people when Paul Korea was speaking up on that saying like, oh, who's this guy? He makes millions of dollars in the NHL and now he wants to say that they're not. But I feel like that's another example where 10 plus years down the road, the stuff that he was saying has held up very, very well.

And any criticism of him has not held up at all because we know more about concussions and player safety and all of that. You're looking back on it going, yes, of course, Paul Corrie was. right and anyone who was pushing back on them was wrong. Yeah. And you know what? When we talk about the, hey, what if Korea never got cross-checked by Gary Suter to this Canada

win the Olympic medal or a gold medal in 1998? That's a little foreshadowing. I think later this month we're going to do a what-if episode where we take your favorite what-if questions because that is a great one. What if Paul Korea doesn't get hit by Gary Souter? So I think I think Korea is on the list. Now, player here. Okay, I think we've pretty much gone with retired players. Let me slide in an active

player who was very much in the news cycle this summer. And that's Mark Andre Fleury. Sean, Mark Andre Fleury, Flower. He's smiling. He's always in a good mood. He's upbeat. He's likable. Is Mark Andre Fleury on the list of the 10 most likable players in hockey history? He's definitely real high on the list of active players. I would. would say. And again, you look at this is, he's now onto his third team. The way that he left the first two teams, very positive as far as the fan response. He orchestrated his own exit out of Pittsburgh.

He saw the writing on the wall and it was time to go. Goes to Vegas becomes the most popular player in the young history of that franchise and then gets traded under circumstances that certainly weren't ideal, but that that reflects on the organization and not on him. it's boy it's always risky to put an active player on there because he never you know he's he's still got a year or two left that's still lots of time to go and do something but i feel like again this is a guy that you know anytime you're talking about somebody you know we talked about how tough it is to get a battle of alberta guy on the list i know anytime you talk about somebody who was well known as a penguin there's going to be a flyer fan somewhere ready to jump in but even then what do you mad at mark andre fleur that he gave up six goals a game in that one crazy playoff series like that was that was amazing. You can't be mad at the guy for that. You know, any who else would be mad at Mark Hunter?

Canadian fans mad about the world juniors 15 years ago. You got to figure they're over that by now. I feel like Mark Andre Fleury's probably a reasonable pick. He's certainly a candidate at least, wouldn't he be? Yeah, I think there was maybe for a brief window, there are some Chicago fans who were like, if this guy doesn't come to Chicago, I hate him. But no, he's coming.

He's going to play in Chicago. So I think it's really hard to do, I think, to be a goalie for this long in the game and be this well liked and this well respected. But that's what flower is done, right? And you know what else he's done? And I don't know if this was intentional, but it's a good tip for any other players out there who want to be on this list someday. Whenever there's been any dirty work, he's got an agent who does the dirty work for him

and puts his face and his name on. right? If Mark Andre Fleury tweeted out the sort in the back picture maybe we're having a different conversation but it's his agent what are you going to do? He can't control his agent I'm sure he didn't know wink wink that that was that was going to come out there so that's maybe

a little tip. I've always always have a good heel manager who can take the heat when it's when something has to happen. Okay so Flurry of course is kind of big moment in the NHL 2009 Stanley Cup final Pittsburgh beats Detroit in game seven and as

the clock ticks down in that game. Mark Andre Fleury moves from left to right and stops Nick Lidstrom on a point blank chance to seal the game seven win. And that takes us right to Nick Lidstrom and those Detroit Red Wings team. Sean, I'm going to give you two names of very likable guys that won Stanley Cups in Detroit that might end up on our list. And that is Nick Lidstrom and the magic man, Paveld Datsug. Where do we fall on those two guys, Lidstrom and Datsuk? Yeah, I feel like those guys are both pretty good candidates. You know, I, all right, tell me if this sounds crazy, because I'm kind of forming this thought in my head, and I'm not even sure that I buy it as I'm getting ready to say it. But I feel like if we're doing a list of 10 players, nobody hates.

I feel like Nicklitzram is near the top of that list. I don't know anyone who hates Nicklis. I mean, this is one of the all-time great players, one of the guys that just, you know, played the position so perfectly, I don't remember any controversies. I don't remember any, you know, anything going on. I feel like if you're saying nobody hates Nick Lidsrom is high on the list. I feel like if you're saying players that everybody loves, I think Datsup moves ahead of him.

Because I feel like there's more people out there who'll go, I loved watching Pavel Datsup. Whereas Nicholas Littstrom was a guy that part of the appeal, part of what made him so great, was that there were nights you didn't even notice him. You didn't, you know, Nicholas Listern didn't do anything crazy. He didn't go end to end. He didn't lay anybody out with a big hit. He was just absolutely perfect for the entire game. And what happened is at the end of the game,

you didn't notice Nicholas Listern, but you also didn't notice any of the good players on your favorite team because they were out against Lidstrom and he shut him down. Whereas Paveld Datzou was more of the highlight real guy, the magic man, the crazy, you know, the crazy breakaway moves and all of that. So I feel like he's, maybe more more on the list of guys that people love and Littstrom is on the list of guys that nobody hates.

Yeah, that makes sense. Litsroom is almost robotic, right? Like, he's the type of guy that if he took his shirt off and there was like a USB port on his abdomen, you'd like, yeah, that makes sense. This guy probably, he's just a robot. He just plugs in, you know? Yeah. I think whereas, like you said, that Zook was so magical that it was always fun.

Like, he's one of those guys that probably would. I mean, Alexei Kovalev would be there. I mean, Kovalev's more polarizing. But in terms of players that fans like, they just go to the internet and watch highlights of them. Yep. Boy, Datsu breaking people's ankles or the shootout move or whatever. Boy, that's, it's really tough to put anybody ahead of him.

And he was so universally loved. Like I really just. Yeah. Among the players, too. Yeah. Remember the year when they started doing the All-Star draft and like it was like it i mean there there was going to be a fight over who got to draft pavald atsook because everybody wanted to play with this guy like he pavl datsug and this is a

compliment you hear in sports sometimes and i think it applies to him pavl datsuk was your favorite player's favorite player so you know he's a guy that uh and you know which is why we at some point we might do a hall of fame debate episode and when you look at his numbers you kind of go i I don't know. Is he a Hall of Famer? Yeah, he's going to be in first ballot because everybody in the hockey world loves this guy. Now, you know, playing career ends and he goes off and, you know, he's got some opinions and, you know, some pieces of his personality start to come out and maybe you scratch your head a little bit. But up until the point that he leaves the NHL, I don't think there was, I don't think there was a mark on this guy's record. you know, I'm starting to wonder, could we have cut this, this show short and simply just read off a list of Lady Bing winners? Because Pablo Datzuk won a whole bunch of Lady Bing's.

I just look at it out, he won four, I think. That certainly helps. Four in a row. And so, you know, you start to look at some of the names on the list of Lady Bing winners, and it's guys that we've kind of talked about already or we've bandied about, right? Like Paul Korea, you know. And we're going to get to a couple of other guys here. Can I tell you a funny Pavel Datsuk story?

Yeah. I'll keep a short. So I've got a son and he's like a lot of kids his age. He loves YouTube. And he went through a phase where he loved to watch hockey highlights on YouTube. And there's a ton of videos on YouTube where it's just the top 10 this, the top five, that bloopers, great plays, whatever. And he used to love to watch that stuff. And so we had a rule.

I said if you've got your screen, you can watch this stuff, but you can't watch anything that's violent. I don't want any injuries. I don't want any fights. I don't want anything like that unless you got to ask a parent. I didn't want him finding like Clint Milarchuk or something like that. He's sitting there on his own. So anyway, so he went through his face watching this stuff. And one day I was sitting with him.

And for some, we were talking hockey. And for some reason, Pavel Datsuk's name came up. And I could see in his eyes that he knew who I was talking about. And he goes, I go, you know who Pavel Datsuk is? And he says, oh, yeah, Dad. Pavel Datsuk was one of the most violent players in NHL history. And I went, uh, what? Where are you getting this from?

And he says, well, I saw a YouTube video about how violent he was and how many people he hurt. But he says, but dad, I want you to know. I didn't watch the video because I know the rule and I followed the rule. I didn't watch the video. but I saw the title and I go what was the title of this video

that you saw and he said it was the top 10 times that Pavel Datsu broke someone's ankles and I was like oh so I had to explain what that actually meant

because they're for a while in this kid's mind Pavel Datsuk was so violent that not only was he out there breaking people's ankles but he broke so many ankles that you could make a top 10 list out of it which implies that it happened

more than 10 times that he was just out there breaking bones constantly. And I mean, there's a part of me that wishes I hadn't even, like, corrected him. I just let him, let him be the one guy who goes through life thinking that Pavel Datsuk was the most dangerous, vicious, brutal player in history because of how many, how many ankle breakers he was dishing out out there. Okay, that's money. I love that story. That's gold. And now I'm thinking maybe he had the green light to watch videos of ankle breaking and now he's just, now he's gone down the wrong rabbit hole. Yeah, now he's a Bobby Clark. He's got a fan page. Bobby Clark? Yeah.

You're the worst one? I always say, it's a baseball one. Remember Jason Kendall of the Pittsburgh Pirates breaks his ankle? And I'm like, yeah, that's an actual broken ankle. Any video where an athlete is holding up his leg and his foot's pointing the wrong way. That's just like instant. Yeah. Hit the X on that tab.

I'm out. Okay. So I'm with you. I think Pavel Datzuk makes the list. Now, what about another member of the Red Wings who kind of was in the previous of Detroit. And that's Steve Eisenman. And, you know, Eisenman's a guy that is really well-liked. Actually, maybe we'll do two guys at once year because they're very similar. And now they're both general managers. And they both wore the same number. And that's Steve Eisenman and Joe Sackick. And they had this,

what I think about this is when you think about that nasty, bitter Detroit, Colorado rivalry in the 90s. And Sackick and Iserman were sort of the leaders of those teams. They never got their dirty in that stuff, right? Not really, no. Classy gentlemen. So I'm wondering, like, and maybe this is the question we ask Avalanche fans, do you hate Cesarman and we ask Detroit fans, do you hate Joe Sackick? But I feel like if one of them makes this list, they both make the list.

Yeah. Make sense? I think that's fair. You got to have one or the other. And I mean, I'm worried because, geez, if we put Osman on here, that's three redwings from that same era. And I don't know about that when they're, especially a team that was that good winning that many championships.

But yeah, Eisenman, again, Eisenman's one of those guys. You go back over his whole body of work, his whole career. First of all, obviously, he comes up in the Norris Division, and everybody in the Norrist Division hated each other. And then there was a time in the mid-90s where there were a lot of Detroit fans that weren't on board with Steve Eisenman. I think we've talked about it before. But the all-time cautionary tale of the narrative of you can't win with this guy.

This isn't a guy who could. That was Steve Iserman in like 95. There were a lot of people inside and outside Detroit going, you can't win with Steve Isman. Flashy guy, lots of points, but this is not a guy you can win with. You got to trade him. You got to move on. And of course, now all these years later, Steve Iserman is viewed as almost the archetypal

perfect leader of what you want from a hockey team. But yeah, he'd be up there. And then Sackick, too. You know, it could have been different with him. he, a lot of people forget this, 97, he signed an offer sheet with the Rangers to leave Colorado. When Colorado was still getting established as a franchise from a financial point of view, and he signed an offer sheet with the Rangers. And Colorado ended up matching.

This is the whole crazy how Harrison Ford saved the Colorado Avalanche story. If that doesn't have, they don't match, and he goes to the Rangers, I think that maybe puts a different spin on it. Because now he's the guy who sold out, took the big money, went to the big market Rangers, who were always stealing other teams players. And maybe there's some bad feelings in Colorado, even with the cup, all of that stuff. But it didn't happen. They matched.

He plays his whole grand. And literally, you know, sackick more than anyone, the definition of a franchise player. Literally, this guy is the franchise. He's your best player forever. Moves with you to a new location. And then, oh, career's over. Okay, run the team now.

He's, I feel like he and Eisenman both have to be. beyond there. But, and we're loading up too many Detroit guys now. Well, and probably somewhere Henrik Zetterberg is like,

whoa, what about me? What did I do? Yeah. I'm I not on this list. He's a likable. He's a likable guy. That was the secret for Detroit,

man. They just had a team full of like 15 guys he hated and then two guys where you're like, but I like him. He's cool. You know where Joe Sackick, where I really related to him? I'm like,

this is like a person that, anybody can relate to. It's when he stuck his hand in the snowblower. You're going to say that. I knew that's where you were going. I could see myself doing that. Like something like that. I'm like, yes.

Thank you. That's exactly. You're like, is this guy, man, this is, you look at Joe Sacking. He look at his career. It's his GM. You're like, does this guy ever make a mistake? Does he ever make? Yeah, he does.

When it's time to when it's time to unclog the snowblower, that's where that's, that's his kryptonite. That's his nemesis right there. Yeah. Okay. So I, you know what, I think Iserman and Sackick would be pretty close to it now. But Steve Iserman did have a falling out with somebody else whose name you wanted to bring up. And that's Martin St. Louis.

Now, their falling out happened in Tampa Bay and may have been rooted in the fact that Iserman left San Luis off of the Olympic rosters in 2010 and 2014. What I find interesting is Martin St. Louis is another guy, Sean, who's on the list of he's won multiple Lady Bang trophy. So he kind of has that gentlemanly feel. But I kind of feel like Marty St. Louis and Tampa, the way that that broke up, I kind of feel like that takes him off the list, a little bit. Yeah, but I think it might.

I put him on there because this is somebody. I've written about this topic a few times and I think once was way back in the Grantland day. So this is like 2013 and it was before all of that happened. And I think he was a real good candidate back then. Because, you know, he's the small guy. We all love, not just hockey, anything. You give us an athlete who's clearly smaller than everyone else, and we love that guy, right? We love Spud Webb.

We love pinball Clemens. And Martin Saint-Louis was that guy and obviously a legitimate superstar in the league. But the way that that ended, I think probably does take him out of the running. And I don't feel like there's a ton of bad feeling still in Tampa. I feel like that was kind of a situation. where they understood it worked out probably for the best for the team and all of that. But even outside, I think there's a lot of people who look at that and go, you can't have a guy on this list who forced his way out because he was mad.

He didn't make an Olympic team that he did eventually end up playing on, which is the ironic part of all that. But I think he probably doesn't make the list. And I'll throw one other guy out there. And I didn't put him on the list that we were talking about just because I feel like he's not the level of star that you need. But Steve Sullivan, I think, is another. guy falls into that, the small players. Yeah.

Bounced around, played up for a ton of teams. I feel like everyone, everyone loves him. And if you don't, go and look up the clip of him with the fan. Go type Steve Sullivan fan into YouTube and then tell me you don't love this guy after that. He's got to be an honorable mention at least. Yeah. No, there's no other Steve Sullivan highlight or memory you can think of other than him and the fan. That's, I mean, that's the main one.

That's just the all-time great. And again, if you don't know what we're talking. talking about, I'm always so happy. This happened a few weeks ago, and we were talking about the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, I had never seen this before until you mentioned it. And I went and I checked it on YouTube. It were given you a gift. If you don't know what we're talking about, type Steve Sullivan fan into YouTube and watch the clip that comes up. Okay. I got one other kind of, uh, we'll call it modern players. Then we'll wrap up by hitting some old school players that, you know, may, may, may end up

on the list here. So right now, look, like I said, Aginla, Salani, Korea, Datsuk, they're on this list. You know, I think Mark Andre Fleury, Lidstrom might be, Sackick, Eismund. But where are we fall on the Sedeen twins? Yeah. Imagine if we only pick one of them. We're like, yeah, Daniel, yes, and Henrik, no. But are we fall in the, are the Sedeen twins likable? Or did they have some stuff?

I always think of the Brian Burke press conference. from the 2002 playoffs and they were, I'm sure Detroit fans didn't like them. And they had some heck in their own market. They weren't loved until they really took that next step. That definitely. Yeah. It definitely took us a while to warm up. Here's my question with them.

Are we given Bruins fans veto here? Because I feel like they're, I feel like Bruin fans, even though they won the rivalry, I feel like there's at least a few of them that are going to put their hand up and go, no, no, no, we're not, we're not putting this, the city. on there. Yeah, they were, while they played, and I would say for most of their careers, they were divisive isn't the right word. That makes it sound like it was split down the middle, but they were players that there were a lot of fans who just didn't like these guys for reasons. I don't know if it was the identical twin thing. I don't know if that creep people out

or what it was. But for whatever reason, you just, and then it was almost towards the end of their career where you went, oh yeah, these guys were great. What were we talking about? But I don't know that they're universally. I feel like the needle's moving in the right direction for them year after year. Maybe by the time they're in the Hall of Fame, they'll be on the list. I don't think they're on my list right now. Yeah. It's, yeah, it's a, it's a tough one.

And especially like, but like you said, I think we need to, like Boston fans, boy, I mean, is there any opponent, like, I'm trying to think of an opponent. If we get Boston fans of Vito, we can't have any Vancouver, no Montreal, no, Toronto, like down the list. I mean, at some point, yeah, at some point, Pittsburgh from the 90s, like we got a, you know, there's, there's only so many. Like, I feel like they should only be, it's like a fantasy football. Like, you can't vote to veto every trade. Like, at some point, we're taking your butt in a wave. So I don't know how we're going to handle Bruins fans here. Okay. So speaking of the Bruins, let's debate some older names that might be on the radar here.

And one that you brought up, which I think is interesting, is Raymond Bork. Ray, Bork of course, played 95% of his career with the Boston Bruins, ultimately left, played a couple of seasons with the Avalanche. One is Stanley Cup. It's an iconic scene where Joe Sackick hands him the cup. It's a great moment. It's one of the great endings of a career. It's Ray Bork on the list of most likable players of all time.

I'll tell you, I grew up as a Habs fan. So I didn't like Ray Bork, but it wasn't from anything like that he did. Because he was a star, right? He was a great player. Yeah. And we just hated him because he was good. Yeah. Yeah. But even then, like, you know, he wasn't a guy where, you know, there were certain stars from that era that you absolutely could understand why somebody wouldn't like him.

Like, you're telling me you don't like Mark Messier. Yeah, I get it. Yeah. Just based on the 80th and forget about Vancouver in the 90s. Like, you know, you didn't like Doug Gilmore? Sure. Yeah, I absolutely could see that. You go on down the list. Yeah, Bork, you know, he was a real clean player for the, for the era and the position, which is to say he was still, you know, breaking wrists and ankles fairly regularly, but didn't do it as often as other guys. And I just feel like with him, the move to Colorado and the way that ended was like such a pallet cleanser that from that moment forward, I feel like he's a strong contender for the list. Even though you're right, in the middle of his career, he probably wouldn't have been

because he was just so good that he, it was hard to like a guy like that who was that good for somebody else's team. So he ends his career with his Stanley Cup. It's one of the rare storybook, I'm out the door with a cup. Another guy that ended his career that way that may end up on this list is Lanny McDonald. And I think, I think Lanny McDonald from the old school for people who are too young to know, look, Lanny McDonald, 500 career goals, 1,000 points, iconic player with Toronto,

iconic player with Calgary. Boy, I, and maybe the most iconic thing is the stash. Yeah, that's it, man. You know, I think Lannie McDonald's on this list. Yeah, I mean, that is not a name that popped into my mind, but when I saw him on your list, I thought, you know what?

Yeah, he might be. Now, it's been, he hasn't played since 89. So there's a lot of people listening to this who don't remember Lanny McDonald, maybe even don't know them that well. But yeah, there was a time, absolutely. Came up with Toronto, left Toronto under controversy. But again, one of those exits where everybody was mad at management. They weren't mad at Lany McDonald. It was what happened was management was feuding with Daryl Sittler and they couldn't trade Sittler.

So they traded his best friend just to be jerks, pretty much. and fans were furious, but they weren't furious at Landa McDonald. He goes to Colorado. He's okay there. And then he goes to Calgary. Has one of the crazy outlier season, he had a 60 goal season. Yeah, 66 goals. Yeah, not a, one of the, you know, you look down the list of the highest goal scoring seasons.

That's, that's well up there. And then, yeah, has that great ending. He had the Ray Bork ending before Ray Bork. Like, he was the classic old guy finally gets his cup. until Bork came and perfected it. But yeah, I mean, I feel like that's, that's got to be up there. Again, I'm a little hesitant because you're talking the 80s and you're talking a flame.

Like, there's got to be some oiler fan out there who's like, actually, he crossed check your art curry in the head 13 times. And, you know, okay, well, we all forgot about it. But, yeah, I mean, who doesn't like Lanny McDonald? Right. And again, there's some other old-time players that we could mention. And you might like them and you might respect them. but when we say their name, you can't picture them.

And Lanny McDonald, you can absolutely picture Lany McDonald. And that's part of it. That's sort of what works. We hated it. It was a weird era, man. We hated anyone with long hair. That was a sign that you were an open. But if you had a crazy mustache, we were completely on board with that.

We thought that was awesome. Yeah. You know what? You mentioned, hey, maybe there was some time in the Battle of Alberta where Lanny McDonald cross-checked Yari Curry. And I think if you're looking at that Oilers team of the 80s, and you had to pick the one guy. Look, we already talked about Gretzky being somewhat polarizing

and some people who did like him. I think if you had to pick the most likable guy from the Oilers, I think you would go Yari Curry because he didn't have the sort of the sandpaper element of Messier and he didn't have, you know, he was just a really likable guy. And so I wonder if Yari Curry is a really likable player. I think he's the guy off that team that, that definitely would get the nomination. It's not Kuretsky, it's not Messia, it's not Glenn Anderson.

Paul Coffey, as a player was sometimes a little dicey, and he burned a lot of bridges bouncing around teams around the league. Curry could be that guy. At the time, Yerickr was really the first Finnish-born star, one of the very first European stars. So it was a little different. It was a little, there were, there were a lot of hockey fans back then who, you know, hockey players are supposed to be good Canadian boys.

And, I mean, there's still traces of that these days. But back then it was, you know, it was a full-blown part of a lot of fans' identity. So I'm guessing that, you know, Yari Curry might say, yeah, no, I wasn't universally beloved in the mid-80s when I was, you know, establishing myself as a star player in Canada on a Canadian team in Canada's game. but in retrospect, I think he's one of those guys that's almost maybe even appreciated more now because he was such a good defensive player. He was a great two-way player. And we, it wasn't that that wasn't appreciated back then.

But back then there were superstars who scored and then there were shut down shadow guys that stopped you from scoring. And somebody who could play both ways like that, I think that his style almost probably would be more appreciated. it today than it was then. But I feel like he's he's in consideration for sure, I would, I would think. You know what? I just thought of a name that we don't have on our list that we had put together. And he just came to my mind as you were talking about the 80s. And this guy's name probably should have come up when we were talking about Sackick and Eiserman, because he kind of falls in the same realm. Ron Francis.

Yep. Ron Francis would be, would be up there as well. the exit from Hartford was tough, but again, I think that's one where the player escapes most of the blame from it, although there was some back and forth. It didn't end on good terms with Hartford, and he did eventually come back to the franchise. It was in Carolina by that point, but so there's some mending there. I think he would be on that list, but I don't know that. I put him up there with Eisenman and sack it, but maybe I should. I don't know.

Maybe I'd have to think more on that one. Yeah. Now, what about Boria Salming, who was a fixture on the Toronto Maple Leafs blue line in the late 70s and into the early 80s? Very likable guy, but Boria Salming make the list? Yeah, again, it's similar to Curry, right? Salming really was the first European star in NHL history. And in the 70s, when he broke in, you can guess what that meant as far as how he was perceived. And he had to sort of push back on that.

But by the end of his career, maybe he's on the list. And certainly a guy that many, many years down the line, you know, now that we've, most of that garbage is out of our heads, we're viewed differently. You know, he's an interesting one because he's kind of the only, he's, he's kind of the only, he, he's, he's, He and McDonald are kind of the only maple leaves that I could really think of putting on this list. Because today, you can't put a maple leaf on the list. As soon as you say the Leafs says somebody's going to jump in, oh, I hate the Leafs because of blah, blah, blah. Back then, the Leafs were so terrible.

They were such a joke under Harold Ballard that I ain't. Nobody even hated the Leafs. That was the worst thing you could say about them. They weren't even worth hating. He almost just felt sorry if you're Boris Somming year after year, just putting Norris caliber seasons together for this awful team. So he's in the running too. Again, if I had to put down a top 10 list, I'm not sure he's on there, but he's in the discussion.

You know, another guy that I don't really know much about because he played, I think, the bulk of his career, the most productive years was kind of before our time. But that's Gilbert Perrault, Buffalo Sabres star, Jill Bear Perra, who, if you look at the all-time list of, you know, goals and points, Gilbert Perrault is, you know, 500 goals, 1,000 points, Hall of Famer, always had a reputation have just been a really nice guy. You know, you can't like, Jealbert-Per-Roe seems like a really, like, kind of likable guy, right?

Yeah. I, again, this is one where, if we're making a list of the best players that nobody hates, Gilbert Perrault's in the running. Beloved players, outside of Buffalo, I'm not sure. He played his whole career in Buffalo.

Was an amazing player, an absolute, and Sabres fans would probably say, underrated, and I think they'd be right, underrated as far as stars of that era. I don't think he's appreciated enough, which unfortunately probably takes him out of the running for being one of those guys who everybody loves

because there's a lot of people going, oh yeah, Joe Bear Parra, I've sort of heard of him, but, you know, especially younger fans. But yeah, go look up his numbers and look up some of his highlights. He was a hell of a player. Okay, we're going to end the show with a guy that I think will end up being on the list

and it's way before our time. And is Jean Beliveau. It is a guy who, when you say his name, the first word that probably comes to your mind is gentlemen. Like, right? Like, Jean Beliveau is one of the most iconic players in the history of a franchise that might be the most iconic franchise.

And, you know, the way that he is revered, and his life is revered, how they keep that little seat for him at the Bell Center. I'm thinking if you're talking about the most likable players, Boy, I would think even back in the day in the 60s and the 70s when the Montreal Canadiens were hated, I'd have a hard time thinking people hated Jean Belavaux, right? I said at the beginning of the show that we're going to have a hard time

getting anything close to a unanimous pick. This is, I think, as close as we can get. And again, it's before our time. So I couldn't tell you what fans in that era were saying. I'm sure there were some fans who didn't like the guy. But, yeah, I, yeah, Today, I think John Belvo is as close to being the one name that everybody would agree on. And yeah, I mean, you said the word gentleman.

There's a word that I hate when it comes to hockey because it gets so overused. And so I cringe every time I hear it. And that word is class. Everybody's class. Oh, it's so classy. You know, some franchise puts out a tweet saying, thank you for playing for our team. And everyone goes, oh, they're so classy. Everybody wants everyone to be classy.

Like, we're all wearing top hats and monocles. And I can't stand that word except when it's applied to Jean Belimo, because he was the epitome of class. He's the one guy that I don't mind when they break that word out for. And he's just so, you know, his playing career, after his career, everything, you went down the list. I feel like there's one name we can end on where we're going to get something close to unanimous.

he's the guy. And I can't wait to hear from a bunch of angry fans who want to tell me why they hate Sean Belvoir. Yeah. Listen, I think petition to rename the Lady Bing Award, the Jean Belvoirvo trophy, the Jean Belvoir Award would be fantastic, right? Oh, you mean we shouldn't have an award named after some rich guy's wife that, yeah.

Yeah. No, I would, I'd be right there right there with you on that one. Okay. As we wrap up this podcast here. So here's the 10 names that we sort of settled on. We'd love to hear from you. You can tweet us or can always send us an email, The Athletic Hockey Show at gmail.com.

So here's our list of 10 that I think we kind of settled on, okay? Jean Belvoir, Raymond Bork, Steve Iserman, Joe Sackick, Lanny MacDonald, Pavel Datsuk, Mark Andre Fleury, Paul Correa, Tammu Salani, Jerome Gindler. That is our list of. the 10 most likable players in NHL history, Aginla, Salani, Korea, Flurry, Datsuk, McDonald, Sackich, Eisenman, Bork, Bellamow. I like it.

I like it. It's a good list. And can we just close on a warning? I just want to put this out there as a public service because you threw this out on Twitter and you tagged me, so I saw all the replies and a lot of people, first of all, a lot of people have some very strange ideas about who are universally like players. But there was one name we didn't talk about, but it came up an awful lot. And I just want to put a warning out there.

Everybody out there who's saying that Joe Thornton is a universally loved player, do not say that around a St. Louis Blues fan. I have made that mistake. I have walked that road. I put Joe Thornton on a list once. And blues fans have never forgiven me. I get it. Blues fans, I was ready and here to defend you if it came up.

Do not ever say or suggest that Joe Thornton, as great as he is, he's got the funny beard and he's got a great personality. He's fantastic, walks around the street with no shirt. We all love Joe Thornton, except for Blues fans, do not ever suggest in the presence of a St. Louis blues fan that Joe Thornt is universally beloved. You will regret it and you will wish that you would listen to me. Yeah, and that's for the hit on David Perron back in the day. So, okay, we'll leave it there. Listen, this was a lot of fun.

Like I said, we're trying something different here in August, trying some different themes for different shows. hope you certainly enjoyed hanging out with us here for the hour as we talked about the most likable players in hockey history. Like I said, you can always email us any questions or feedback to The Athletic Hockey Show in Gmail.com. You can also leave us a voicemail 845445-8459. If you're not a subscriber with us on the print side of things with the Athletic, you can join us at theathletic.com slash hockey show to save on an annual subscription.