The Athletic Hockey Show - Discussions and questions continue surrounding the Chicago Blackhawks, Sidney Crosby primed for return, when will the Coyotes win a game, and more

Episode Date: October 28, 2021

Ian Mendes is joined by guest co-host Max Bultman to discuss Sidney Crosby getting ready to return to the Pittsburgh Penguins, and the team's success so far this season despite so many injuries to key players. Also, the Arizona Coyotes are struggling, and have yet to win a game. Looking ahead at the schedule, is there a win in the near future?Then, Ian and Max are joined by Chicago beat writer Mark Lazerus to discuss the latest in the continuing Chicago Blackhawks' story, including Kyle Beach's interview with TSN's Rick Westhead, Joel Quenneville coaching Wednesday night for Florida, fan reaction and much more.To wrap up, Jesse Granger returns with "Granger Things" to share a few betting trends he has picked up on so far in this early part of the season. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We're back, everybody. It's another Thursday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. Ian Mendes with you as always. And we've got Max Boltman, pinch hitting for our pal. Down Goes Brown this week. Ahead of the podcast, our Chicago beatwriter, Mark Lazarus, will join us, talk about an emotional week around the Blackhawks and what the reaction has been to that powerful interview

between TSN's Rick Westhead and Kyle Beach. Max and I will start to chat about the strong start to the season for the Metro Division. Sit Crosby on the precipice of a return. Try and figure out when the Arizona and the coyotes are going to win a game. And Jesse Granger is going to pop by for some Granger things and a look at some super early season trends around the National Hockey League. But like I said, off the top.

Max Boltman, who does a terrific job covering the Detroit Red Wings, does the Friday edition of the podcast with Corey Prondman, always doing the prospect stuff. Great to have you pinch hitting here for Down Goes Brown, Max. We're going to just say Sean's got a lower body injury. We're going to put them at week to week. I think that's fair. Thanks for having me, by the way.

I'm really pumped up to be here. And we're not going to tell. I'm not pinch hitting for Haley. So I don't have to join the blood feud that you guys have with the American show, right? Yeah, I'm not crossing any international lines here. No. Listen, you're so close to the border. We feel like we can adopt you as like a quasi-Canadian anyway.

But hey, listen, great to have you on the show. So we are going to have, listen, this is going to be probably a little bit of an uncomfortable conversation that we're going to have with Mark Lazarus coming up. But it's obviously the story that I think is dominating the hockey world. So that's going to take up a good chunk of the oxygen on this show. But before we get to Mark Lazarus, I want to ask you about, I think what appears to be maybe a big on-ice story this week, Max, and that's the return of Sidney Crosby. He's missed the first handful of games. Are you surprised that the Pittsburgh Penguins are off to such a good start?

They've only lost one game in regulation time. without Crosby, without Malkin, Brian Rust has missed a bunch of games, Le Tang's missed a couple of games. Like, are you surprised that Pittsburgh has done this well to start the season? Of course. I mean, you have to be.

Like, you know, when you're talking about the caliber of players they've been missing, that's one way to look at this. I think that tells you a lot about what the expectations were for them. You go look at who their leading scorers are right now, and I think that tells you a ton about how surprising it's been that they are where they are.

You're looking at Drew O'Connor, a rookie. Evan Rodriguez and Danton Heiden. Those are their three leading scorers tied with five points each. It's been really impressive for them to get out to the start they've had, knowing that they're leaning on guys who aren't used to having to kind of carry that scoring burden. Good players, some of those guys, all those guys, but not used to having to be the guy, the scoring, bearing the scoring load for a team that's in Pittsburgh's position. Yeah.

Don't you find that the penguins are like the classic team, like there's a guy you've never heard of And he's got, like, he'll score two goals. You're like, oh, Drew O'Connor's got two goals. You're like, I've never even heard of this guy. Or like, some rando player will always have a two-goal performance. And you're like, ah, yeah, it's Pittsburgh. They just find these guys that drop in and they're just really, really successful players. Yeah, it's the classic Mark Donk tweet, I think, is the, that's what Dom will always cite.

He does his write-ups is, you know, that some guy named Mark Donk and Buzz Phillip it or whatever have, like 30 goals each at mid-season for the Penguins. Yeah, it's exactly what it is. but it speaks to them as an organization too, that they're able to keep finding guys who are able to do that. And Drew O'Connor, you know, this is a 23-year-old,

went to Dartmouth, and he's out to a point per game start. So we'll see if he can become anything. They always have a knack for churning out those guys like that who are able to just become legit top nine, top six NHL forwards. Yeah.

And, you know, for me, like I'm looking and we'll see if Sid comes back on Thursday night against Calgary or at some point in next couple of days, I'm really curious to see where his game is at because, you know, it's an Olympic year, right? It's a year where you know that Crosby is going to be super motivated here. Like, I don't even know what my expectations are for Cid other than I just feel like he's going to score in his first game. And he's going to do some Cid thing behind the net and he's going to protect the puck. And he's just going to be Cindy Crosby, like right off the hop, right?

Yeah, I mean, that is who he is. So I would not shock him at all if that's how it plays out for him. But, you know, ultimately, I think the key is like, Does he look like, like Sid on a consistent basis over the first week or so? Because, you know, he's missed enough time now that it's not, I don't know that I would say reasonable to expect him to hit the ground. I agree with you. I think he's going to score on his first game back. But is he going to be able to hit the ground running over the course of a week, two weeks?

That's probably more the key. But, yeah, I, you know, I'm never going to underestimate Cindy Crosby. I've seen him his entire life do just astounding things. And, you know, he with his, the way that he thinks the game, probably more than the game. than anyone is probably going to be able to adjust to the pace, adjust back to the pace. Yeah. And like to me,

I think that's, again, it's going to be a really fun story to watch Sid come back. So the penguins are off to a great start. Like when you look, like I felt this way. I don't know about you because you're like me. You cover an Atlantic division team.

So, you know, the division that we cover has a couple of teams that have struggled in recent years, Ottawa, Detroit, Buffalo. But I always looked,

I don't know about you, Max, I looked at that metro division at the start of the year. And I'm like, I can kind of make a compelling case for all team, every single team in that division, all eight of them, to be a playoff team. Like, you could talk me into it. And here we are, a couple of weeks into the season, when you look at the standings right now

in the national hockey league, the New Jersey Devils are in last place in the Metro division, their last place team, and their record is three and two. They're a winning team who's in last place. So can we just go ahead and say that this is unequivocally the best thing? division top to bottom, and it's playing out kind of the way that we thought it would. Yeah, I think you can make that case for sure. I mean, the one team that I will say before the season, I probably wouldn't have made a case for as Columbus knowing kind of where they've been headed, but they're out to a four

and two start. Exactly. Yeah, it's impressive stuff. And they have got to see the goal tending to give them a shot in any game. But yeah, that division top to bottom, there's no easy nights in there. I'm sure all those teams are glad that we're not dealing with last year's scheduling setup where they're only playing each other because they can get. outside the division a little bit.

But yeah, I mean, you look at a team, like I just watched Washington last night because they were playing the Red Wings. And that's still a powerhouse team. You know, like if Gennikuznetsoff looks back, they're playing without Nicholas Baxter right now and they haven't lost in regulation. So that's a murderous row of a division. And I pick the Islanders to win the Stanley Cup in that division. Right now, I think they're, are they even in a playoff spot?

No, they're in seventh place in that division right now. It's absolutely crazy. Yeah, to me it's bananas. So it's been fun to watch that division. And what's not been fun, Max, though, is to watch the Arizona Coyotes. And they are exactly what we thought they would be, right? We thought they would be a bottom feeding team, whereas, you know, Buffalo, who I think a lot of people lumped in with Arizona in the start the season, Buffalo has been a great, pleasant surprise. Arizona has been kind of what we thought they would be, which is a team that struggles out of the gate.

They are the only winless team in Chicago, too, right? But, I mean, in terms of a singular point, right? They've got one point so far this season in six games do the Arizona Coyotes. Here's my question for you. When did the Coyotes win a game? Like if you look ahead of their schedule, this is what's a little bit worrisome for me. On the docket, it's the two-time defending Stanley Cup champion Tampa Bay Lightning. Then it's the Washington Capitals.

You just said they got that just terrific offense clucking right now. Then it's Carolina after that. They've got six games without winning a game. Max, when do the Arizona Coyotes win a game? Look at, look down the list here. Like, when can we expect them to win a game? I'm looking at it right now. And first of all, that November 12 game in Chicago, I guess, probably jumps out as a little tempting. I'll go a week sooner, though. I'll say that November 5th game in Anaheim. I would, let me check to see what Anaheim schedule is like coming into that because it would sure help Arizona. If that could be a back-to-back, it is not there coming off multiple days' rest.

so I assume you're going to get arrested John Gibson there, which isn't going to help the coyotes cause. But I'll say that November 5th game, and if they don't get it done there, then the 12th against Chicago is their next best shot. Okay, so they've gone six games without winning to start the season. I look this up, and this is an ode to, you know, usually Sean McIndoo sits here,

and I throw some rando trivia at him. I'm going to throw rando trivia at you here, Max, and you don't have to guess the team or the year. What, like, I just want you to guess the number of games. What's the NHL record all time? Longest winless streak to start the season. What do you think that that number is? And I'll be honest with you, I wouldn't have known unless I looked it up.

All right. So my first impulse was to guess something like nine, something that they're in range from. But I do know there have been some expansion teams who have gotten off to a really rough go. So I will up my first guess. I'll say 13 winless games to start the season. What a great guess. You know what? Like, because technically, okay, so the answer is 15.

Okay. But that's the 1943 New York Rangers. They started the season by losing 15 straight games. If you move into the more modern era. So let's even like move into the 9th, like from the 90s and beyond so that most of our listeners can be like, oh yeah, I know what you're talking about. The two teams that have lost 11 or had winless streaks of 11 games to start the season, the 95-96 San Jose Sharks, when.

the first 11 games were out of win and the 2017-2018 Arizona Coyotes went 11 they're like hey I feel like we've seen this movie before yeah you did you saw this movie four years ago so that you know you'd like it for their sake to not get to that point but they've kind of been exactly what we thought they would be right yeah there was no illusions going into the season here now with that said that we probably would have said the exact same thing about buffalo who was out to like a four and two starter are they five and two now even um four and I think, but a great start. So I don't want to say that anything's ever inevitable in the NHL because the teams are still

close enough that anyone should be able to beat anyone at any given. It's not out of the realm of possibility that Arizona comes out and beats the lightning. So it does happen. The margins are not as wide here as they are in like college basketball or college football. But yeah, they are who everyone thought they were. And I don't think there's any reason to think it's going to be a different narrative as this season unfolds. All right. Max, we're going to kind of shift our attention away from kind of the on the ice stuff to what I think is obviously the biggest story in the National Hockey League right now.

And that is what is going on with the Chicago Blackhawks. And I know that Mark Lazarus, who's about to join us here, has had a very stressful and hectic and I'm sure emotional 48 hours here. So as we bring you in, Laz, I think the very first question I want to ask is like honestly, how are you doing? Because I think that these types of stories have an impact on the people that tell them. And it's not just an easy thing, like writing a game recap, you go to bed. And I mean this in all sincerity. Like, how have you slept the last couple of nights? How have you been doing knowing that this report came out earlier this week and you've had to obviously weigh in on it?

Well, I appreciate you asking that. And it's interesting. A few people have reached out and asked that. I'll tell you, I'll tell you, here's how I'll phrase it. I have, I've always had incredible admiration for people like Katie Strang and Megalinahan, people who write these kind of stories regularly. and I have a much greater appreciation for them now. The effort it takes to compartmentalize some of the things you're doing

and then play with your kids at the end of the day after some of the stuff you're thinking about all day. It's not easy. I mean, nobody's feeling sorry for me, nor should they. I got there are real victims here and no journalists can count themselves among them. But it is. You know, none of us got into this business to write stories about sexual assault and things like that.

We wanted to write fun hockey stories. And, you know, I like writing stories about, you know, what it's like to take a smelling salt and, you know, how often guys have to change their clothes. All those are the kinds of stories I like to write about. But this is part of the job. And, you know, it's, it's gross and it's ugly and it's infuriating and it's upsetting and it's all those things. But when it comes down to it, it's important that we write these things because it's important to, you know, to document it, to shed a light on it, to praise the people that deserve to be praised to, you know, excoriate the people that deserve to be excoriated. And,

you know, that's, that's the job. You were at the game. last night, I assume, at the United Center against the Maple Leafs, first one since the findings had come out. What was the environment like at that game? And how did people kind of straddle the common, I guess a similar line of compartmentalizing? There was kind of this uneasy feeling. It felt like they could add the ramp up to the game. Like I was kind of expecting maybe, you know, team CEO, Danny Wirtz, to make some kind of statement over the Jumbotron or for them to show, you know, maybe their letter to fantasy. But they just played it straight, which is probably the way to go. I mean, I had one reporter asking is like, why are they, It was, it was, it was like, it was like Mexican Heritage Night and Dia de las Martos and all this. And they had like mariachi bands.

And it was really, there was a lot of fun stuff happening in the game. And someone thought it was tone deaf. And I'm like, well, wouldn't it be worse to just like have a funereal atmosphere where there's no music and there's no nothing? And, you know, I don't know how you win in that situation if you're the Blackhawks. I don't think anyone really cares if the Blackhawks win at this point. But once the game started, it felt like a hockey game. The crowd got into it and, you know, and they were going nuts and they were, you know, excited when they finally got a lead. and they were, you know, upset when a goal got waved off

and they were mad when, you know, the Leafs tied it up and they were bummed when they, when it was, when they lost in overtime. But it was, once the game started, it felt semi-normal, but it was a weird, uneasy feeling and like kind of the ramp up to the game. And, you know, I think for you, and I want to direct our listeners to the piece that you wrote about Kyle Beach and his conversation with our colleague, TSN, Rick Westhead. And, you know, obviously I'm sure that was a difficult,

story for you to write. I thought you hit it right. You just hit the nail on the head. It was the perfect tone. But I just want to play one little piece of audio here from our listeners. And this was one of the most powerful poignant moments of the conversation between Rick Westhead and Kyle Beach. Have a listen as Rick Westhead talks to Kyle Beach about finding out later that another 16 year old minor had been assaulted by Brad Aldrich. Have a listen to this part of the conversation. When Brad Aldridge did leave the Blackhawks in the summer of 2010, he went on to work for the U.S. hockey national program, actually, as well as Miami University in Ohio. And then in 2013, he wound up in Houghton, Michigan, where he sexually assaulted a 16-year-old high school player.

And I wonder if that player is watching now, what your message to him is. I'm sorry. I'm sorry I didn't do more when I was. could to make sure it didn't happen to him to protect him. But I also want to say thank you to him. Because when I decided after a teammate asked me about it when I was playing overseas and I decided to Google Brad Aldrich's name, that's when I found out about the Michigan individual, the Michigan team. and because of what happened to him, it gave me the power and the sense of urgency to take action to make sure it wouldn't happen to anybody else.

So I'm sorry and I thank you. And I hope at some point down the road, if he's open to it, I would love to meet him. Because unfortunately, we share something in common that's going to be a part of us for the rest of him. of our lives. Las, you know, what I want to ask you about is your column because I think where you really nailed it. And it's hard not to listen to that, not get choked up. Why Kyle Beach, you know, felt the need to apologize was so gut-wrenching, heartbreaking. What was your reaction? Because you're in Chicago. You've listened to everybody on the podium. And the one word you haven't heard from

anybody is sorry and you heard it from him. Well, that's the thing is, you know, Everyone was watching that and, you know, that posted while I was driving to the rink. And I'm a bad person and I checked Twitter while I'm driving sometimes. So I knew that I knew something was going on. You know, I had my suspicions. It was Kyle Beach to begin with just based on our reporting. And there was a lot going on. And so I saw the interview probably half hour after everyone else did when I got to the rink.

And as I was watching it, I was like, yeah, I understand why everyone, this is awful. This is horrible. And then that happened. And I just suddenly got really angry. Like I got, like I wasn't upset and I wasn't sad anymore. I was just, I was pissed off. I was pissed off that Kyle Beach feels this way. I was pissed off that nobody else seems to feel that way of the people that were involved.

I give, I give the current incarnation of the Blackhawks deserve some credit. Danny Wirtz, who was not involved with the team in 2010. He's the son of the owner, but he was on the beverage side of the business back then. He's been here for a year and a half. He directly apologized to, at the time, John Doe on Tuesday when he announced the firings. He said all the right things and he did all the right things. And he deserves some credit for the time.

that. Absolutely. That was the only, but he's the only person who said, sorry. You know, Stan Bowman's just awful statement that he released on Tuesday, passed the buck. It was John McDonough's fault. I was a first year GM. What was I supposed to do? That doesn't hold water. Al-McIsaac hasn't said anything. John McDonough's been in a spider hole for a year and a half since he got fired. We haven't heard this from anybody. And to hear it from the victim, that he's the one who actually feels sorry because a minor got assaulted and had his life altered forever. It just, it just infuriated me. And that's when I started writing the column. Like I wrote that column on like a half hour.

Like it's 1,500 words and I wrote it like a half hour because it's just, I was just mad. That was that was, that's not the emotion you're supposed to feel when you're watching something like that. It's empathy and it's sadness and it's, it's, it's, I was just mad. And I, I don't think I'm alone in that. Like the, like the, the very idea that Kyle Beach feels guilt over what happened to him is such an, it's such a, it's emblematic of such an institutional failure that it almost defies words. You know, you talked about Stan Bowman and some of the statements we've heard from Chicago. What about the players' reaction? And I think that that is certainly interesting because, again, in that interview,

Kyle Beach says, look, everybody knew. You know, Brent Soapel and others have gone on the record saying, look, everybody knew. When you listen to Kyle Beach saying he was the victim of homophobic comments on the ice in the dressing room, it feels like everybody knew. So what has been your read into the reaction from some of the guys who were on that team, Jonathan Taves and Patrick Kane? Well, look, look, I am willing to allow that it's distinctly possible that there were players in the team that did not know. Everyone knew feels hyperbolic.

Not everybody knows everything, but, you know, people say, oh, everybody knew that. That doesn't mean that every individual person knew that. So I can't sit here and say that Jonathan Taves and Patrick Kane are lying when they say they didn't know at the time. that said, their comments last night were, they were, they were, they were tone deaf. Like Alex De Brinkett, who was like 12 years old when this happened, was really good after the morning skate. He came out, he's an alternate cabinet. He's one of the young leaders of this team. And he said, you know, the moves they made were the right moves.

You know, they were hard moves, but they were the right moves. Like, you know, he basically said that firing Stan Bowman was the right thing to do. That takes a lot of courage to say in the NHL. That's not a thing most guys say. You know, Connor Murphy, another one of the kind of newer leaders on the team, another alternate captain. His first thing he said was, you know, you think about the victims here. He said the right things. And then Taves and Cain come out and basically they were like, you know, look, Stan and Al are really good guys. And I understand it. Like they're humans and these are friends of theirs.

These were business associates of theirs. These were people that meant a lot to them. You know, Stan Bowman, Patrick Kane lived with Stan Bowman when he was a rookie. They're very close. They, you know, he knows their kids and, you know, Jonathan Taves, same thing. There's loyalties there. I understand that. But you have to know not to say Stan's a great man. Al's a good guy. You have to know not to say that three hours after Kyle Beach explained what they did to him. Like you can think that and you can maybe address that down the road.

But at the very least you have to say they did a horrible thing. Something horrible happened here. And, you know, everyone's involved should feel regret that we're sorry that we didn't know that we didn't do more. Say sorry. Say you have remorse. Say you have regret. They didn't do that. Instead, they chose to defend their friends.

And there's some twisted thing to admire there about the loyalty they have to their friends. But you have to know your time in place. You have to read the room. There should have been PR people should have told him ahead of time, make sure you don't say these things. Like, it just came across so bad. I tweeted out one of the quotes by Taze, it's got like 3,000 quote tweets. And every single one of them is negative. I mean, it's just, it came across.

It's just the wrong thing to say at the moment. wrong time, even if you believe it, even if you, I understand that you believe it. These are your friends. Your friends did a horrible thing, though, and you have to focus on that. And so their comments, I think Scott Powers has a column that's going up any minute about that. Their comments, I mean, that's going to hang on around there next for a long time. Mark, the one person who we did not hear from yesterday, I mean, obviously they're not with the Blackhawks anymore, but Joel Quinville and Florida coaches yesterday does not address the media post game. You covered Joel for a while. Does that surprise you that he did not,

do his usual press conference post game in light of all this? It surprised me that he coached. I'm surprised that nobody had the foresight to say, you know what, this is a bad idea. But I also said that about Stan Bowman. He shouldn't have been general managing the Blackhawks all summer. They should have been put on leave until they had the facts. We've got the facts now.

Joel Quenville shouldn't be coaching. That was one of the big revelations of the Jenner and Block report was that Joel Quenville was in that room. That was one of the only surprises in that report. We did not know that he was in the room at the time. And it was one of the guys saying, team chemistry, we got to worry about team chemistry. He was a driving force, it sounded like, based on the report, to try to kind of squash this.

There's no way he should have been coaching last night. And all of, you never want to believe that people are capable of doing these things. So in one respect, of course I'm surprised. I thought very highly of Joel Quenville. He was a man who really cared about his players, who obviously cared about winning, but he really did care about his players and everything that I'll go, along with that. So yeah, on one hand, I'm really surprised. On the other hand, I cover hockey for a living. Almost nothing surprises me in terms of what the priority is out here. And the priority is always

we, we, not me. And that doesn't always mean, you know, I'm a good team player. That means sit down, shut up and don't, you know, don't rock the boat. Don't make waves. Don't make this about you. So on the one hand, yeah, I'm surprised. I'm disappointed. On the other hand, this is what hockey is. This is what we're trying to get out of hockey is this idea that winning is the most important thing, that team success overrides everything else. I mean, that's what Danny Wirt said the Blackhawks did. It was team performance above all else. And that, I'd like to think that wouldn't happen now that, you know, yet it seems silly to say it was a different time in 2010.

But look how far we've come socially and as a society in 10 years, 11 years. I'd like to think it wouldn't happen again. I'd like to think that there are lessons that will be learned from this. but I'm cynical by nature and I'm skeptical that anyone ever learns any lessons in the NHL in pro sports in general. Joe Quinn is expected to meet with Gary Bettman today and I believe Kevin Shevel Dayoff at some point in the near future too. Is there any indication?

What should we expect the kind of the tenor of those meetings to be? I mean, is there a stated purpose of them? I don't know. I mean, the Jenner and Block report was pretty thorough. They talked to 139 people and said they had 100 gigabytes of data and forms and reports. ports and things like that. I guess Gary Betman wants to look him in the eye and get the measure of the men and make his own decision, but I'm not sure that Gary Bettman can do anything more than Reed Schar and Jenner & Block did. I guess you have to meet with them. You have to talk with them.

But I don't know what Gary Bettman's thinking. He's got pretty much dictatorial powers in the NHL. He can do whatever he wants. And I just really have a hard time picturing Joel Quentville, and this is amazing to say, I don't think he'll ever coach again. I don't see how it happens. I can't get past that interview last night with Kyle Beach. I don't see how anyone could watch that and then say, these people deserve another shot. And that's hard for me to say. Like, I'm not a bomb thrower by nature and I'm not a burn it all down guy.

And I do believe in second chances. And I don't believe that, you know, these are bad people. But they did an unforgivable thing. And they've lost the privilege to do what they have done for their careers because of it. That's what I believe. And I think, as that brings us to a really interesting debate about, the legacy of this team because, you know, that was a long championship drought. It's not unlike the Rangers when they won that Stanley Cup in 1994.

That team is just adored and lionized in that market. I think very much the same way that the 2010 Chicago Blackhawks were. They were they subsequently won Cups in 13 and 15. So how does this muddy the waters and complicate the legacy of one of Chicago's most beloved teams in recent years? Well, I mean, that's up for each individual fan that decide. and I truly believe just Scott Powers and I have been writing about this a lot over the last five months is how these, how these revelations have kind of colored your fandom. And there are a lot of people that, that have, that quit the Blackhawks forever.

There are people that turned in their season tickets. And the Blackhawks did their credit, didn't fight that. They allowed them to do that. There are people who are torn. There's a lot of people grappling with that. And there are people that just don't care. And that's, you know, I don't understand how this could, how this could, not affect your fandom in some way, but there are probably the majority of fans will go on wearing

their jerseys and rooting for their team and watching the games, and that's fine too. I understand that. You know, this is your team. You grew up rooting for this. So many of your great memories are tied to this team. I get that. But that's for each individual fan to decide. I actually, it's funny, I was writing a column about that last night when I watched the interview and I scrapped that column and started writing the other column. So I might revisit that column because it's not black and white. It's not, you can't just say, you know, you can't take their names off the cup. You know, bring down the banner.

They still won the Stanley Cup. That's fact, that's history. That's a part of hockey history now. But it's important that we forever put it in context. You know, I'm not a fan of whitewashing history, but I'm a fan of, you know, making sure you put history in its context. And that 2010 cup will always now be associated with Kyle Beach and the institutional failure of the Blackhawks to protect its own players.

And so I guess another question is, what do we do with the names on the Stanley Cup? And again, there's one debate, which is the court of public opinion. And like you said, I think you nailed it when you said, however fans want to treat this, they can go ahead and treat it. That's okay. But the NHL on some level, I mean, that Stanley Cup is the most sacred, you know, piece of hardware in the league. And there are names on that Stanley Cup that do not belong.

on that Stanley Cup, given what we know. So how does the NHL or how should the NHL navigate that particular question? I don't believe in just erasing it. I think that's the wrong way to go about it. I don't, you can't put an asterisk on the Stanley Cup. You can't put a disclaimer on the Stanley Cup. I get all that. And I really understand and pretty much agree with the idea that Brad Aldrich should be

stricken from that cup. But, you know, what in that? Do you take Stan Bowman off all three cups, just the first cup? Do you take Al McIsaac off? One of the three cups, do you take John McDonough? Do you take Jonathan Taves and Patrick Canoff? Do you take, you know, Nick Boynton and Brent Sopel, who have been the biggest supporters of Kyle Beach throughout this? Do they deserve to have their names taken off the cup?

I don't know where you draw the line there. I'm not in favor of just pretending that that year didn't happen. The Philadelphia Flyers did not win the Stanley Cup in 2010. Vacating it is not the right answer. I think, again, it's just, it's, what matters to me is that you put it in context. It's history. It happened. The Blackhawks won the Stanley Cup.

up and they did this awful thing, and some people are complicit in that. I think you have to, you know, at the Hall of Fame, you know, maybe there's some kind of, you know, you're not going to put it next to the Stanley Cup, but maybe there's somewhere in there that talks about that year and what happened is, it's, you know, I'm a believer that everyone who took steroids and baseball belongs in the Hall of Fame. It's idiotic to me that Barry Bonds is not in the Hall of Fame. But on his plaque, it should make it very clear and just all the other guys that they were part of the steroid era, that they were part of a systematic cheating.

basically that was condoned by the league and overlooked by everyone. Put it in context. You know, this is a completely different thing. But like, you know, people tearing down Confederate statues in the United States, absolutely. Those statues should be torn down. But they shouldn't be like melted down. They should be in museums and say, look, this is what happened. You know, this is what this country was. Well, this is what this team was 11 years ago. This is one aspect of it. And it's an important one that we shouldn't forget. But I don't think just pretending it didn't happen helps any. I think putting it in its proper context is the most important thing here. And I'm sure I'm probably not in the majority there.

I think a lot of people just want it X out all the names. I don't think that's the way to handle it. When you talk about the institutional failure that accompanies this, I'm curious how, if at all, does that shape or affect the search for Stan Bowman's replacement here? I mean, is that a factor in this search process? You know, it should be that. Danny Wirt strikes.

I haven't gotten to know him very well because it's, you know, it's COVID. We don't talk to people anymore. But everything I've read about him, everything I've heard from him is he's a forward-thinking, progressive, relatively young guy who wants to make the Blackhawks better. I mean, you look back and, you know, since he and Jamie Faulkner took over, you know, they've greatly improved the diversity of the front office staff. You know, Don Lucidian wrote a story a couple of years ago about how there were basically no women and no people of color in the Black Hawk's front office.

and the Hawks took that to heart. They really did, and they went and did something about it. And they hired a bunch of them. And that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, they're one of the first teams to start doing the land acknowledgement before a game. They started doing that last year, even when there were no fans in the gate in the building, they did it. And they made sure that NBC Sport Chicago played it before every game. That's progress. I do think the logo is going to be scrapped within the next 10 years.

I can't imagine that having a cartoon Indian as your logo is still going to be a thing in 2030. I think that this is all part of the process. So I think Danny, Words is, you know, he does think about these things. He does think about the bigger picture here and bringing the Blackhawks into a new future. And I think that's why, you know, yeah, they need a GM who can negotiate contracts and manage the cap and all that. But they also need a president of hockey operations to be a voice, to be a presence, to be, you know,

a new face of this franchise, John McDonnell always, you know, bragged about the stability. Every other team was churning through front office. It was the same people running the Blackhawks for so long. And well, look what happened. This is the first chance in more than a decade, almost two decades, to really have new blood at the top of the Blackhawks organization, a new vision. And that's the opportunity that Danny Words has here. Will he follow through on it?

I don't know. But I'd love to see you, Kevin Weeks. Eddie Olcheck has the credibility of the favors. The Blackhawks have so much credibility and respectability to earn back here. And it's going to take a long time. It's going to be an arduous process. But there are people out there that I know that could do that, that could help bring this, you know, Patrick Burke is another option.

You know, if you want to talk about credibility, having a track record of diversity and inclusion and doing the right thing, there are so many people out there who could bring the Blackhawks into the 21st century proper. And this is a very big opportunity. I mean, yes, it's about the hockey. This is when it comes down to it, this is a business and they got to win hockey games. But you could have Kyle Davidson or whoever, whatever GM you want, but there should be a new big presence at the top of this organization who can really, you know, kind of usher in a new age.

That's the opportunity the Blackhawks have here. Well, Mark Lazarus, we really truly appreciate your time here on the Athletic Hockey Show. I know you alluded to this on Twitter. You've been inundated with, you know, interview requests. I'm sure for virtually, like you said, at one point, I think you said every radio station in Canada had reached out to you, right? Yeah, it's like, look, I want to do like, you know, Billy into Dweasel in Winnipeg sometimes, but it's just, yeah, Tuesday after like, like at 1.42 p.m. Could you be on for 35?

No, I can't do it. I'm sorry. There's a lot going on. Sorry, Dweasel, I can't join you. But you did. You took the time to join us. And again, I encourage all of our listeners to check out the work that you and Scott Powers have done here. And Katie Strang as well on this particular topic.

It's been so important. But in particular, your column that you wrote, you said you took 30 minutes to write that. You know, sometimes the best columns are the ones that you just, you write from the heart. And you wrote from the heart and you nailed it. So thanks for writing that column. But thank you again for joining us here on the athletic hockey show. I appreciate it, guys. All right, Max, I'll tell you what, that, like we said off the top,

it was going to be a powerful and kind of a difficult conversation. And I just really appreciated the candor that Mark Lazarus had in that conversation. I can only imagine how difficult it is. Because like he said, I think you're probably the same as me, Max. Like, you got into this industry because you love the game. You love talking about the game on the ice and the stats and the stories and the features. None of us got into this game for that. But when that story is there, you have to tackle it.

And I can only imagine how difficult it is to sort of dig into a story like that. And you can sense from Mark Lazarus that it's an emotionally taxing story to have on your plate. It is. And I sent Mark a note earlier this week when I saw him doing one of his many media appearances on NHL network. Just to drop him a note and say how impressed I was by the way he's able to speak about it live, which is it's such a heavy, difficult topic. One that really in our business, you're trying. to choose your words really carefully on this stuff.

And so to talk about it kind of live and extemporaneously like that, you know, blown away by Mark, obviously, and really just even more impressed by Kyle Beach in that context because it's such a hard, hard thing to do to speak and say what you mean on the first try. Yeah. And, you know, that Kyle Beach interview, it was one of the rare times. And, you know, I've gotten the, I've had the pleasure of knowing Rick Westhead for a long time, one of the best in the business. And it's one of the rare times, Max.

You know how the world works now. there isn't must-see TV appointment viewing as much as we've had in the past. But that was appointment viewing for hockey fans. And I think every hockey fan that took the full 25 minutes to watch the entire thing walked away from that, just feeling really, really, I think angry was the right word. Like Mark Lazarus said, you know what? I was expecting to watch that interview and come away, just feeling like so much empathy. and you do feel empathy and it's mixed with rage.

And it's rage for how did this happen to this young man that you're 20 years old. You're not that far removed from being in high school. You're not that far removed from basically being under your parents' care for most people. And to think that an institution let somebody down in that particular way, it is so upsetting. And I would really encourage all of our listeners to please check out. if you haven't watched the entire interview, and if you're in the United States, you can watch it now on, on YouTube.

Obviously, in Canada, you can watch it on YouTube or tsn.ca. But I encourage everybody to listen to it because I think it's really important to hear from the victim. And the strength that it took, Max, for Kyle Beach to come out and say, I am John Doe. You know, I am the one who is the victim of the assault. And I feel like I want my story out there because for the last 10 years, I've been living in darkness. I think that was one of the most important,

and I hope I'm not overstating this when I say this. That's one of the most important interviews in the history of hockey that's ever been done. And it was done perfectly by Rick Westhead. It was. And obviously, the ripples here, I don't think are quite done either. And so the story isn't going anywhere. And for Kyle Beach to be out in front the way that he was yesterday, tremendously impressive, tremendously impressive by Rick,

obviously, who's been on this story the whole way along with our, own Katie Strang, who I think is just one of the greatest in the business. So, yeah, really, really important journalism. And one of the rare bits of important journalism that really gets this kind of spotlight, right? A lot of times the most important work does not get the publicity that it, that it, you know, I think kind of commands. All right, Max. We're going to move over now and reintroduce Jesse Granger to our Thursday show because it's been a couple of weeks since we've had Jesse Granger on for Granger Things brought to by BetMGM, the exclusive betting partner with us here at the athletic. It feels like it's been forever. Jesse Granger, welcome back to the Thursday show, my friend.

Yeah, it does. I've been doing my thing on Wednesdays with Sarah and Rob, but nice to be back with you guys. Yeah. So, listen, you got to tell us, how's the, how's the chemistry going two weeks into the Wednesday show? This is your chance to vent about Sarah, you know, or Rob, or, you know, if you've got some issues, Let's work it out right here on the Thursday show. Air them publicly, as all good grievances should be. Building chemistry is all about reps, and we're just going out there every day. We're showing up to the rink. We're trying to get better.

No, but seriously, it's been great. And Sarah's obviously makes things easy because she's hilarious. But, yeah, it's been getting better and better every week. We're excited for what that show is going to become. Yesterday was heavy as it was all around the hockey world. But every week we seem to get better and better with that show. Yeah. And obviously, you know, early in our show, it was certainly heavy when we had Mark Lazarus with us. So we understand that that is the most important story in the hockey world, but we do know that there are some other angles to all of what's going on in hockey.

And that's why we did bring you back on for Granger things. So it's very early. As we say this, as we haven't even hit Halloween. So it's really important to caution everybody it's early, but it's not too early to see some trends, right? like you get some trends and maybe some smart money to put down. Let's start with the St. Louis Blues, Jesse, and they've been off to a terrific start. I was really curious to see what kind of team St. Louis would be. You know, Teresenko's coming back.

Would that cast a bit of a shadow over them? And, you know, I had some questions about them. They've been good. And I guess from a betting perspective, too, they've been fairly consistent early on. Yeah, a wise man once said, good teams win, great teams cover. And the St. Louis Blues are covering at an astonishing rate. They've been great. And this is my favorite time of the year to look at betting trends and stuff because I feel like as you get further into the season, teams are.

We figure out what these teams are and you can't get as much value because the sports books, they know what these teams are. Every night you're getting basically what you should be getting at the books. I think right now is a chance to kind of take advantage of some teams that aren't what we expected them to be. And the odds haven't really shifted enough yet. and the Blues are slaughtering everyone. They have outscored the opposition 25 to 11 in their first five games. They're the first team in blues history to score 25 goals in the first five games of the season. And they have won every game by two or more goals,

which means if you bet the Blues blindly on the puck line minus a goal and a half every single night, you would be 5 and 0 and you would be up 4.55 units of whatever you were betting, which is super impressive in that short amount of time span. So you mentioned Vladimir Teresenko looks himself. He's got six points in five games. David Perron, who I love from his time in Vegas, has been outstanding. And Jordan Kairu, a young kid on that team, has been phenomenal. So if you're looking for a team to bet puck line, the blues have been perfect to this point.

Jesse, I don't bet hockey, but when I bet other sports, and I'm not sure what this says about me, I love to bet a team that is going to lose the game but win my bet. I just love the backdoor cover, I guess, so to speak, whether it's a late goal in garbage time to get you the line or whatever it might be. Who's my team in the NHL if I want to win some bets where the team's going to lose? Definitely the Anaheim Ducks, unfortunately for Ducks fans. They have been underdogs in all seven games to this point, and they've gone two and five, so not great. However, they've only lost by more than one goal one time this season. So if you're betting the Ducks, obviously we were talking about betting the Blues,

puck line, they're the favorite, so they're minus a goal and a half. If you're betting the ducks on the puck line, you're getting them plus a goal and a half, meaning as long as they don't lose by two, you're fine. And they've done that in six of their seven games so far. And if you were to bet them blindly on the puck line, you'd be up four point four or five units. So you'd almost have won as much as if you were betting the blues every night. That's pretty incredible that the ducks are almost as profitable as the undefeated blues who are just steamrolling everyone. But I think that's kind of what you expect with the Ducks. John Gibson's stats haven't been super impressive. I think it's almost impossible to put up impressive goalie stats behind a team like that.

His save percentage is only 0.99. But when you watch the game, he's impressive. And it's kind of been that way for a while now. It's hard to not appreciate what John Gibson is doing back there, despite not having a whole lot of help in front of him. And he's keeping this team that is otherwise not very good. He's keeping them competitive in games. And if you're betting them puck line, the ducks are winning for you. They still have the Pacific Division, too, so you expect games that they're at least going to be in for a lot of this season. For sure, that division certainly helps. And like, from my perspective, watching it from Vegas, their slow start, if they, I was looking, if they were in the metro, they'd be in a lot more

trouble than they are right now in the Pacific. We were talking about that at the top of the show. Yeah, exactly. On Wednesday, the Philadelphia Flyers became the first team to had at hand Edmonton a loss and did so with a 5-3 victory. And I guess, just as we moved from sort of the puck line stuff to over under, an eight goal game, a five to three, a game involving eight goals with Philadelphia shouldn't come as too much of a surprise here. Yeah, Philadelphia, they're four and one to the over,

which is actually not the best record in the league. I think the Flyers are, I mean, sorry, the Penguins are five and one to the over, but the Flyers have just kind of been barely getting to the over, whereas the Flyers, if you're betting the over, you're feeling comfortable halfway through the game. They're averaging almost eight total goals per game, 7.8. That's an entire goal higher than a team like Pittsburgh, who's at 6.8 goals per game,

who's gone 5 and 1 to the over. So that kind of just shows you how easily the Flyers have been covering this over. And there's a lot of reasons. First off, they've been scoring a lot. Obviously, that helps. Cam Atkinson has been phenomenal since they brought him over in the off season. He's got six goals in five games. But also, to get that over, you've also got to be bad on the other end. And they have been. They've allowed the second most shots in the NHL. They've allowed the second most scoring chances in the NHL according to natural stat trick. And Carter Hart has been better. I think he's been improved from last year, but still not great.

And obviously, Martin Jones, he had one solid game, but you don't expect him to be lights out every night. So I think the Flyers, you can count on them to get goals for you and you can count on them to give up some goals for you. They're a solid bet for the over. What I look at the standings right now in the goal differential column, the Dallas Stars jump off the page because they are one of the few teams in the league who have played. seven games so far, they have total goals for and goals against 32. I got to imagine they're an under darling right now. Yes, the stars are the opposite of the Flyers. They're 0 for seven right now hitting the total in the game.

So they've gone under in all seven games. And what's even more impressive is four of those games went to overtime or shootout. So you're adding an extra goal to the total. Usually there are so many times when you bet an under and you're like, oh, this is great. It's going under. Got it. Got it. And then it goes to overtime.

It's like, well, I know that there's going to be an extra goal, whether even if it goes to shootout, they're going to put an extra goal on this and I'm going to lose it. So the stars have been so impressively, I guess, low scoring that even when it goes to overtime or shootout, they are still going under. The total has been five and a half in every game for there, which is low. Usually it's six, six and a half, five and a half. And they have had five, they've had five goals in five of the seven. So it's close. You're getting right up to the seven. right up to the total. You're only winning by a half a goal, but, but they are covering the under for

these teams. And, and that's been a, uh, not a surprising thing, right? Like, I think when you look at Dallas, you, you, you think, okay, defensively structured. They've, get good goaltending. Obviously, it's been a little off the last couple of years with, with Ben Bishop being hurt, but they still are getting solid goaltending and they play good defensive structure. So not terribly surprising that Dallas is going under a lot. Yeah, they're built to win three, two. You just play with fire on whether or not they're going to score an empty netter or not. Exactly. Exactly.

Hey, listen, Jesse, great to get you back in the saddle. Like I said, love having you in for Granger things and kind of taking a look at some of the early season trends. Thanks for doing this and we'll get you again next week. Thanks for having me, guys. Take care, Jesse.

All right, always great to get Jesse Granger back. I got to ask you this, though, Max, because you said you like to bet on other sports and you like to bet on the team that's going to lose but's going to cover. I assume that's code for you just bet on the hometown team, the Detroit Lions every Sunday. Of course it is.

What else would I possibly meant by that? Although they don't cover as often as you might think. Well, they covered when Justin Tucker hit that field goal, right? Yeah, I don't know that it felt any better that day. I also, what I really like to do in the NFL too, I really like to just bet the touchdown. So that's probably my favorite thing to do. Didn't work for the segment, but I do love to bet the anytime touchdown scores and just pick like Dom hates when I say that I love parley's because I guess they're like mathematically don't make any sense. but to me, I just like seeing the big number pop up when you're like,

I'm going to pick all three touchdowns and turn $5 into 100, and then you win once out of 25 times and you're down money, but you feel that great hit of dopamine. Exactly. Hey, as much I'd love to talk to you about the lions, before we let you go, I'd be remissive. I didn't ask you about the Red Wings. And I think a lot of attention has gone to Buffalo for their surprising start.

I think maybe a little bit to Columbus for their surprising start. I feel like Detroit's a little sneaky good. They've won four games here, right, to start the season. Four, two, and one start. Like, is this sustainable? Is this just, hey, early season success? Like, what should read here? Seven games in on a Detroit team that's clearly in a rebuild,

but having some early season success. Yeah, I mean, I'm hesitant to say four, two and one is sustainable for them, obviously, but I do think they're an improved team. And one of the things that I think is really jumping out about them in the early going is the resilience of the team. I think you saw a little bit of that start to come in. last year. It's a team that's been through a ton. I mean, they went through one of the worst seasons of the salary cap era in 2019-20, the shortened season. They were on track to be

the worst season of the salary cap era in terms of standings points. So they've been through a lot, and I think you're starting to see them come out the other side of it mentally. They lost a couple games last week in Calgary and a bad one in Montreal. They come back on the second net of a back-to-back in Chicago and put up six goals. Obviously, Chicago has not had much success going into the year. So you didn't know is that them is that Chicago, they go into Washington last night and play one of the teams that's been the best in the league to start the season, go down 2-0 and fight back and win in overtime. So I do think that's legit. I think Lucas Raymond and Moritzider have been legit impacts on their team so far. Lucas Raymond with the assist on Dylan Larkin's overtime winner last night

on a play that he really held on to it and made the play for Dylan Larkin. So huge impacts from rookies. You know that well in Ottawa can be a game changer and not just the results, but also the vibe around the team. And I think that's a driving factor for them. Yeah. And listen, like, when you watch a young team and you see some of the kids start to pop out and play like the Lucas, I'm assuming the Lucas Raymond hat trick must have been just so well received in that market, right? Because he's a 19 year old kid and he's breaking in and you're just hoping that at some point it clicks. But when you get a hat trick in the first month of the season, I can only imagine the excitement that that was met with in the marketplace.

Yeah, you can't script that. And obviously he's a player who, like, it was not a sure thing that he was going to be on this roster at the start of September when training camps were getting underway. So for him to not only make the team, but then make such a huge impact right away, it's kind of everything anyone could have hoped for out of him. And I think I wrote this. Like, I do think it's important to know, like he is the player that they got out of that brutal 2019, 20 year. You'll remember they lost the draft lottery, dropped the maximum number of spots to fourth. it was apocalypse in Detroit that night trying to process how that could happen after such a brutal year for them. Obviously, the math tells you exactly how it would happen. It's the

likeliest thing to happen. But to get a player out of it in Lucas Raymond, who is so quickly making an impact, I think that's, I don't know that you can really overstate the significance of it for them so far to what he's been able to be for them. Yeah. Listen, it's great when teams that have had a tough go, whether it's Buffalo or Detroit or, you know, in my case, Ottawa. It's always fun when they start to turn the corner a little bit because the fans, fans have been through a tough couple of years. So I always hoping that, you know, Detroit's such a great hockey market, would be great to see them turn it around.

Max, this was fantastic. The hour just kind of flew by. Really appreciate you jumping in here and pinch hitting for Sean McIndoo. Oh, my pleasure. And I'll just say in his absence, just so we don't lose it, go leaves. There we go. That's the best way to end the podcast. Hey, thank you everybody for listening to us here on this Thursday edition

of the Athletic Hockey Show. Obviously, the tone of this one was a little bit different, just given the Chicago story. And if you are interested in more coverage on the Chicago Blackhawks and that storyline, we do encourage you to listen to, you know, Mark Lazarus and Scott Powers have their own Chicago-related podcast. Make sure you download it the latest episode of Las and Powers. or if you missed the Wednesday show, as Jesse mentioned,

with Sarah Sivian and Rob Pizzo, Katie Strang, was part of that. So lots of content for you to sift through on that particular topic. And so thanks again for joining us. Sean and I will be back hopefully next week, and you can email us. Any questions you have to drop into the mailbag, the athletic hockey show at gmail.com, the athletic hockey show at gmail.com.

And if you're not a subscriber with us at The Athletic, you can join us, get an annual subscription. for $3.99 a month at theathletic.com slash hockey show.