The Athletic Hockey Show - Do goalie stats tell us who the best goalies are?

Episode Date: July 29, 2024

On today’s Monday episode, Laz is joined by The Athletic’s own Max Bultman to discuss potential Patrik Laine trade destinations now that he’s been cleared by the NHL/NHLPA players’ assistance program, if anyone cares about the 4 Nations Faceoff and other questions from The Athletic’s NHL fan survey, and Dom’s contract efficiency rankings. Plus, Max challenges Laz’s “dynasty” definition, Jesse Granger joins the show to help break down his recently published NHL team’s current and future goaltending outlook, Vezina odds, and more. Hosts: Mark Lazerus and Max BultmanWith: Jesse GrangerExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Chris Flannery Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. Hello and welcome to the Monday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. It's the dead of summer, but the content machine rolls on. On today's show, we're going to talk about Patrick Linae, the athletic state of the NHL fan survey, which teams are the most and least efficient when it comes to spending their cap space, and we'll get to some of your questions. This is Mark Lazarus, Ian Mendez, and Mr. Melifluis is presumably out on a golf course somewhere. So I'm happy to welcome in our outstanding Red Wings writer and prospect guru, Max Bolton.

Max, how you do it? I'm good. Hang on. I'm Googling Melipolis really quick to see what that means. I'm in Chicago. Max is in Detroit, so I think combined between us, it's been 400 years since we've seen the playoff series, something ballpark, give or take?

Yeah, that sounds right. I've never actually covered one, so that's unbelievable. I'm infinity, so whatever the average of your, you know, your drought plus infinity. That's just wild to me. I mean, when I step into this beat in Chicago, it was the lockout season. So, you know, I covered a Stanley Cup immediately. I got like Peter Baud, basically.

but it's wild. I mean, back then it was the Hawks and the Red Wings. That was a rivalry and there was, you know, the Red Wings always made the playoffs. It was death taxes and the Red Wings making the playoffs. And the Izer plan grinds on year after year after year. And here you are. Do you think this is the year?

I don't. I don't either, yeah. I actually, it's not even exclusive to this beat, though. Like the last postseason sporting events, I covered two college football bowl games, like non-cultural playoffs. off bowl games when I was in college. And then the only actual true, like, playoff series, like with a chance to win a championship

was the women's college super regional, my freshman year of college. I was the only post-season sports I've ever covered. So when I joined the Sun Times, I was at a suburban paper in Indiana. And the Sun Times kind of called me up to cover Notre Dame football. They went 12 and 0 and went to the BCS championship game. I went straight from the lockout ended the day before the national championship games. I went straight to the Blackhawks beat. They opened the season 21-0 and 3.

And in between there, I'd cover like four Notre Dame men's basketball games that they all won. So, like, there were local blogs that don't exist anymore, like Chicago side writing stories about this new guy in town is Chicago's good luck charm. And that's 10 years and 12 years later, it's not so pretty anymore. That's Colton Pouncey here in Detroit, our Lions writer. Yeah, he came in and he covered Michigan State and they were really good. And then he left and they took a nosedive and he jumped on the lions and they're like good for the first time in any of our lives. So he's living the Mark Lazarus experience. Yeah, no, it's cyclical now.

Now I'm everyone's bad luck charm and I'm hated universally. So, you know, these things coming. I go. We're obviously well into cottage season here where every Canadian disappears into the woods until about the second week of September, I would say. But there's still some news to discuss. Since we were last on the air here, or whatever the airwaves are on the internet, Patrick Linae has been clear to return to action after spending several months in the player

assistance program, which is great news. always like to see a guy come out the other side of that, presumably healthy and happy. But of course, Lainey wants out of Columbus. This is a tradition unlike any other is star players wanting to leave Columbus, Ohio. And our buddy, Aaron Portsline, had a story on the possibilities and the complications of a trade like that. Linae's got two years remaining on a contract with an $8.7 million cap hit. He's getting Sidney Crosby money. And he has a partial no trade clause, so he won't be easy to move.

what do you see of the value of Patrick Klein? This guy is, you know, it's been six years since his last 30 goal season, but that's largely because of health. He still scores at a very high rate when he's healthy. He does, but, you know, it's the one-dimensionalness of kind of the overall game. There is a limit to how much teams will be willing to kind of forgive, you know, those seasons where, yes, the goals are there, but they're injury short in seasons, and it's not the most complete game.

And that number, I think, is somewhere, below 8.7 for him. I think it's probably below seven. So one or two things probably has to happen. Columbus is going to have to be willing to eat a decent chunk of money. And that's a long time to be eating that kind of money. Well, two years actually, it's not that bad. But it's a little more than it sounds like. So if you're eating 1.7 for two years, okay, you can probably get away with it. But if you get into like $2.7, you know, $3 million for two years, all of a sudden that costs a little more than listeners are probably realizing it does when they think about it, or he's got to play his way out of there. And that means, you know, having the kind of season that we got used to in his

first two or three seasons in the league, having a 40 goal season, that is the kind of production that teams will overlook a little bit of the empty calorie effect for. I don't see him doing it for 55 to 60 points. Well, that's what, yeah, if you're Don Waddell right now and you're like, well, I don't want to trade him at his lowest value he's ever had in his career, that's just bad business. So, you know, you sit down with line A, I think, and you say, hey, look, you want out of here, go score a whole bunch of goals and there'll be people lining up to take you, right? That can be mutually beneficial to both teams. Trading him now or during training camp, you're going to get so little for him compared to what his peak value is that it just, you know, they don't have to trade him. He's got a

contract. They don't have to trade him. I don't think he's going to hold out. He's not going to do anything to torpedo his own trade value. You know, go out there and score some goals. Look, yeah, is he overpaid? Yeah. But any team will pay 8.7. million dollars for what Patrick Lina used to be. Goal scoring is still the hardest thing to do in this league and he scores goals. It didn't work out. They thought that he and Johnny Godro could become some kind of like mega duo and it just hasn't happened at all in Columbus.

But this guy can score. He's 26 years old. Doesn't it feel like he's like 35 by now? He is 26 years old. There's still a lot of goals to be scored by this guy. And I think the best hope is that he's now at 26. He's probably reached a point you would think that maybe there is this realization that goes on. It's like, okay, it's not just a situation. In Winnipeg, the story was always, oh, can they

play him with his best players? He wants to play with the best players here. And, you know, he's in Columbus here with Johnny Goddrow. You would think that that would be a really natural fit. Hasn't necessarily, we have got to see it as much as we probably would have hoped so. And even we have, hasn't been quite as, you know, automatic as maybe you would have assumed going in. But I do think, to your point, young enough that that realization can come on and he can be that guy, I still think the contract's a little high for what he can be. Sure. Even, you know, his best season at this point is 44 goals and 70 points, right?

So like the 44 goals, yes, I'll let on that. You know, 70 points, 8.7 million. That's like you're right at the top of what you'd pay for 70 points there, right? Well, it's funny because that was in what, 17, 18 that he had 44 goals and 70 points. Yeah, he was like 19 years old. That used to be a ton of points in the NHL. That's like a third-tier guy now. Like the league has changed so much in just seven seasons.

It's kind of wild. I do want to see what a fully healthy, fully engaged Patrick Lainey looks like in this era of offense. Because there's no reason he couldn't be a 50 goal score with his natural abilities. He's got the ability. And you wonder if he could be like a Marion Hosa type who's like all offense in his early 20s and then learns to become this all around player. He's got size. He's got physical. Like there's a really good player to be molded out of Patrick Lining, not just this one dimensional guy.

But like you said, it's a lot of money. and the cap's going up, but teams are still like a year or two away from really having that kind of flexibility, that maneuverability under the cap. It'll be interesting to see who goes after him. I've seen the New York Islanders seem like a logical place. They need goals. There's a lot of teams that need goals, though. Do you see a natural fit for him anywhere? I was thinking, you know, which teams kind of need that spark of a star?

And there's a team that I think we're going to talk about a little bit later today that has way more cap space than I realized and could definitely use a star as they enter a new market. And that's Utah. And I don't know if Utah's, you know, as they make this new market looking to make bets this size, right? Historically, you know, that franchise has not really spent. We expect them to spend a little more under new ownership. But there is still kind of the factor of like, well, you're in a new market and, you know, any move you make is kind of a, you have a very limited record. So it takes up an outsized portion of what we know about you. And that's not necessarily true for the general manager, Bill Armstrong, but it is true. the owner, Ryan Smith. But I think, you know, if they're like, hey, we got a new fan base, let's get somebody who can score a bunch of goals, I can kind of see an argument for Patrick in Utah. That's a great. Yeah, I mean, like you said, you got 20 million in cab space. They are not

going to be a cap team in the next two years. They can easily absorb this contract, which means they can take all of the money, which means they don't have to give as, give up as much to do it. Because if you're not retaining, you're not going to get as much on the Columbus side. I like that idea. Yeah, because I mean, Arizona, I picked Arizona to make the playoffs last year at the beginning there. I'm a believer in what they're doing there. And now that they finally have an owner who is going to be willing to spend to get to that next level, you know, they have to make an instant impact in that market. I love the idea of bringing that guy because there's not that many stars available now.

They got to make, they got it. Miguel Surrogachev was a, Mikel Seergetchev was a nice addition, very nice addition, but he's not like a star, right? He's not a guy you market around. Linae could be that guy. I did overstated. It's more like $17 million when you factor in their cap and the, and the Shea Weber money. But yeah, they got plenty is what I'm saying.

And they've got a lot of talent. You put them with like a Nick Schmalt, who's a good two-way center, who could kind of alleviate some of the defensive pressure, or a Clayton Keller. There's a lot of talent, a lot of young guys coming through that system. That line could be like this veteran, older guy who comes in and really makes an impact. For sure. And their best players, I think, are kind of playmaking types,

whether you look at Keller or Cooley. I think you put a finishing winger on and a guy who has seen the league well enough, that I still think that could be a fit. Do you think the fact that Utah is going to have a truly awful name will deter people from wanting to play for them? I can see people kind of liking it. Do you mean the hockey club thing or do you mean whatever the candidates are for their actual name?

Yeah, the six candidates they have are all. I thought you meant the hockey club thing. I was going to say, I can see people kind of liking the novel too. Whatever. That's that's, I kind of think they should keep it, even though I know that's an unpopular opinion. It's going to be awfully. They had such an opportunity to do something cool there and they're just going to have the lamest name as possible.

No more mythical beasts, no more singular team names. They should be called the Salt Lake somethings. It would be way cooler sounding than the Utah somethings. Everything about this is such a disappointment. They could have done such great stuff. They're going to be something dumb like the Fury or the mammoth or the Yeti, the singular Yeti. They're just one Yeti. They're not multiple Yeties.

You know what I think about all the time is how silly would we think some of the iconic NHL names were if they were being proposed today. Well, there's three baseball teams named after socks. Exactly, right? But those have aged into like the sickest names, right? Right. So like, you know, for the teams we cover, the red wings and the black hawks, we'd be like, what? And the maple leaves, you know, I can't, I guess there's a like, but like if they were founded in like 1920, they would absolutely be called the Utah salts and it would rip. It'd be awesome. The Salt Lake, you know, psychopaths or something. I could give me so many options there. Do you think that at the Toronto Maple Leafs were founded right now that all the grammar nerds out there like me, would just like, just destroy it. Like, what the hell?

You can't just put an S at the end of a, that's not the word. We don't lose our minds. That's the beauty of it. They were just doing whatever came to mind. You know, baseball teams in that era sometimes would be named after just like one specific guy.

Like Cleveland's baseball team at one point was the Cleveland Naps after a guy named Naplajua. Well, the Cleveland Browns are named after their owner, right? Yeah. So like, they would just do whatever and they age into these iconic names. So I kind of think they should just embrace that and name it something.

Sure. Sure, right. The Detroit pizzas, the Detroit, you know, Hot and Reddies. The Detroit Hot and Reddies. I'd love that. That'd be, that'd actually be kind of badass. Crazy puffs. The Utah Venom. I mean, these are such 1990s, IHL names that we're talking about here, man. This is- Theory might literally be like a USHL team. This is roller hockey international stuff. This is the Long Island Jaws with a Z at the end. This is just, oh, I don't know. I'm such high hopes, and they're just right off the bat, making it Utah instead of salt. Like anybody in Moab cares about what's happening with the Salt Lake City hockey team.

Give me a break. I hate these state name teams. Summer's a time for mailbags, right? Fan surveys. This is how we fill the space when we have nothing to write about. And Harmon Dial in Vancouver for us has a doozy going on right now. It's kind of a league-wide fan survey. Lots of good, straightforward questions about, you know, the hard cap and whether you like it.

Closing the long-term injured reserve loophole, further expansion, three-on-three, things like that. But the question that I'm most interested here, I'm sitting here watching like table tennis at the Olympics this morning. Do you care about the four nations face off? That's the question that I'm interested. I'll watch it because I'm a hockey writer and I'm like legally required to watch it.

And I might even enjoy it because it's still going to be good hockey. But do you care who wins the four nations face off? All right. So here's how I think about this. So there are sports where the Olympics is the pinnacle and there are sports where something else is the pinnacle, right? The U.S. did not send their, really most teams did not send their top soccer teams to the Olympics, on the men's side, at least. Because the World Cup is what defines that on the men's side.

You know, the, that's probably the biggest one that's coming to mind actually right now. The world baseball classic in baseball. That's a good one. Yeah, exactly. Baseball is another one. A lot of sports are like, we don't care who wins. We care. But like it's not as big a deal who wins worlds for like gymnastics or swimming because it's all just building to the Olympics.

hockey to me is more on the Olympic side of that. But how long the drought has been since we saw True Best on Best is going to make me care about this one. And I doubt that it makes me care about any successive ones. But until we have like Olympic hockey back on the rotation, I do think I'm going to care about the Four Nations faceoff. Is that what it's called? Yeah, the stupid name too. Eventually I'll learn the name as I say that I'm going to care about it. It's the Four Nations Fury.

Yeah, the Four Nations Fury. I do think I'll care about it just because I have been really. wanting to see this generation of Americans play together and see how they stack up to this generation of Canadians for years. And I just do a summit series. Don't have Sweden and Finland involved. Just do like a Canada, kind of like the women's hockey today where the US plays Canada. Just do that then.

This just feels so to not have Czechia involved, to not have Slovakia, to not have Russia even, to not have Germany, not have, you know, Austria, Denmark. I mean, there's a lot of good hockey to Switzerland. It just feels it's so artificial. I'm with you. Look, I love Olympic hockey. Covering the 2014 Olympics in Sochi was one of the highlights of my career, even though Team Canada was so boring, they almost ruined it. But this isn't that. I understand there's cash to be made. If there's cash to be made, the NHL is going to go after it, and that's good for everybody. I get that. But it's been so long now since we've had an Olympics. I would love for an Olympics to be the first time we see this. And it would have been just two more years, just wait till Italy. And then we finally get it. And all these guys are in their prime. I just think it would have been just, like, it's going to be great no matter what in Italy. But for that to be the first best on best that we've had since in, what, 14 years it would be, it would be the anticipation would just be through the roof.

And I feel like the Four Nations face off as silly as it is is going to kind of not puncture that balloon, but it's going to deflate it a little bit, just a little bit. It's kind of just cheapens it a little bit. I feel like everyone just learned exactly how Laz and I would be about being offered food in a zombie apocalypse. I would be like, oh, God, I'm starving. I'll eat anything. and Lazz would be like, I haven't eaten in four days.

Do not make me eat McDonald's as my first meal. I just, I wanted, I want it to mean something, right? And this feels like it just cheapens it a little bit. It's just like I remember asking David Posternock. They announced this at the all-star game in Toronto. And I asked Posternak, like, doesn't this piss you off? He's like, yeah.

It's like you're alienating like half your league by doing this and excluding some of these like really good hockey countries. Didn't Germany literally win the silver at the last? And I know it was. It wasn't like the same pool, but like it is. Well, it wasn't the NHL guys. Yeah. Yeah, but it is like, it's not like they don't have the NHL guys. They have like a top five player in the world.

And it means so much. The thing that always sticks out to me about the Sochi games was when Slovakia lost in like the quarterfinals or whatever it was. I remember talking to Yaroslav Halak in the mixed zone. And he was utterly despondent. He's like, we have nobody. There's no Slovak's coming up that are at this level. Like, Slovak hockey is dead. Like he really thought that it was like over.

And it's not. It's cyclical and it got good again. And it means so much to these teams. I'm like, you know, when Finland won the World Cup, I know they're in the four nations face up, but like you win the World Cup with the World Cup, the world championships. And like just the whole nation shut down for a week to party.

Like this stuff means so much to so many of these countries, more than it means, frankly, to the United States. Totally. Let's not get ourselves. I know Canada built his whole identity around winning Olympic gold medals, but the United States is like, whatever, what happened in figure skating, and gymnastics.

It just feels wrong, excluding all these countries. It just doesn't, just do the U.S. Canada's Summit series and just call it that. Something about this just rubs me the wrong way. I don't know. I can get on board with that take.

Like I said, I'm just hungry for best on best hockey and I would have eaten whatever slop they fed me and that will include this slop. But I can definitely see the merit of like, then don't do a tournament if you're really just doing, you know, for a little,

for a little hit of it kind of thing. I put out a call on Twitter for questions and Cliff Deutsch asked us, why don't they move hockey to the summer Olympics? And I feel like we've talked about that. That's always made sense to me. Like make it like the world baseball classic where it basically starts your season.

That way you don't have to interrupt your season. It's just while everyone else is in the preseason playing meaningless games, these guys are having their Olympics basically, like a month before training camp opens. It's an indoor sport. You can have ice rinks in the summer. So I love that idea.

I don't know why it's never really been seriously considered. maybe because it's just like it's one of the flagships of the Winter Olympics and the Olympic Committee doesn't want to give that up, doesn't want to overweight the summer games. Do you think that's the reason? Yeah. And then, you know, all of a sudden you're putting it that schedule against the basketball schedule and the soccer schedule. And it's probably just the visual of ice at the summer Olympics. But when you think about it, the NBA schedule and the NHL schedules are virtually identical and ones at the summer games and once at the winter. So that's kind of interesting.

But like for most of the world, basketball is probably like a summer sport. more so than it is here. I love the idea of it, though. I think you'd be great. Then those players, the best players in the world would walk into the opening night of the regular season, like in mid-season form, too. Like, you know how October hockey is always messy and sloppy and kind of ugly to watch? You'd have these guys just tearing it up at the beginning of the season.

I think it would be really cool to be able to do that. No, look, you could sell me on that one pretty easily, I think. All right. All right, well, let's use, you know, one of the things that Harmon asked about is the advantage that no tax days had. That's been a big talking point. But I kind of want to use that to springboard into Dom's contract efficiency rankings because, you know, his whole list is, I know you discussed us a little bit with Peter last week. But Florida first, yeah, sure, of course. But Edmonton was second, a Canadian team and second.

And there were two other Canadian teams. Vancouver and Toronto are also in the top 10. So maybe it's not about no tax date. Maybe it's about just being smart with your money. Is it possible? Is it possible that you can succeed outside of Texas and Florida? And I think it's interesting that the Leafs and the Oilers, to your point, are both on here. Because they're both teams that have put huge money toward their stars, right?

The exact kinds of players who were saying, you know, oh, they can make so much more money elsewhere. Because really, it's not that much more money when you're talking about, you know, a million difference. It's got to be in that territory where there's a two, three million dollar difference tax-wise. Well, it's interesting when you look at like, you know, the value of Zach Hyman is so comically huge after his 50-something goal season that you can see how Edmonton is up at the top. That's carrying most of the weight. But Connor McDavid is a ridiculous bargain at $12.5 million a year. Like, ridiculous bargain. He's a $20 million player probably.

And I think many would argue that he is a big part of the reason that Zach. Hyman's value shot up to where it did. Is Zach Hyman's valuation that high with a different center kind of thing? Were there any other surprises to you? I mean, Colorado is like this terribly cap-strapped team we're always talking about, but you know, they're third because, again, they have really good players under contract. And if you have really good players under contract, you're probably underpaying them because none of these guys get what they really deserve.

Yeah, I like to sometimes just scroll these things and see like, what is the model consistently like? And a couple of things jumped out to me. as you're saying is stars. It seems that you really can't overpay a true inner circle star in this league or at least like with where the market is at. Those are consistently the best contracts, the best bargains. They're the contracts that are getting A-A pluses.

It's not really, we all in the media love to praise that like, oh, they got that guy for $1.5 million on a short-term deal. What a great bit of business for this team. The deals that consistently headline articles like this are the huge money deals that are like double-figure millions. and those are the ones headlining it too. There's a lot of goalies on here that are getting really good contract grades that I did not realize would get that kind of love.

Joseph Wohl has a really high grade. Speaking of the Maple Leafs, he's got an eight plus grade. But there's a lot, Samuel Montembow has a really high grade like that for Montreal. There's a ton of goalies on here that I was like, wow, I did not expect that versus Andre Vasselvesky D plus grade. So it seems that on goalies, the model definitely prefer. the like cheap, cheap price for a solid goalie. And on skaters, the model really prefers just the best player possible pay and whatever it takes.

Well, we're going to get into this with Jesse Granger in a little bit when we talk about the goalie rankings and like the team goalie rankings. I was really shocked to some of those. Yeah. Because you have basically, if you spend any amount of money on goalies, you're dumb apparently. Like, I get it. Goleys are the new running backs and you don't want to spend $8 million on a goalie. But it's kind of shocking to see that. Like, in a lot of these teams that you wouldn't think, like a team like Sanho's,

or Chicago, of course they're going to have inefficient. They're just throwing money out there while they're biding their time on their prospects. I was surprised to see the team you cover the Detroit Red Wings so low on the list. I agree. Deep into the rebuild. I was like, well, this is not promising. Like, this is not a team that should be underwater right now. No, and it's really been the last couple, not even so much this free agency period, but the last two,

they put, as they're kind of trying to like, okay, we need to have a better environment for some of these young guys to come up in, can't lose. forever kind of thing. Now a lot of those contracts are coming up on the real low end of lists like this and you're seeing kind of the Andrew Cop, the Justin Hall, the Ben Chirot deals popping up on these. Sharott did have a better year last year, but even with two years left, I still think that that's not the ideal contract for him. So there's a lot of those contracts when you look at the very bottom. J.T. Comfer is really low on this list. Our deals that were signed the two previous offseason, Vile Huso, even with one year left, has a D plus grade on efficiency here,

probably in large park as he's hardly played the last year. But yeah, it's not the ideal situation for them. And they got probably a year before they're going to have a cleaner cap sheet and a little easier path, but that is definitely an impediment to them right now. Well, it's interesting with some of these rebuilding. You know, I spent a lot of time covering the Blackhawks. And, you know, they had, they've made eight first round picks in the last three drafts now. So they're all going to be coming to fruition to that. second contract around the same time. Connor Bredar will be a year ahead of everybody, but Connor Bader and Oliver Moore and all

these guys are going to be, and Frank Nazar and Kevin Korninski, all these guys are going to be coming into that second contract in like three, two to four years. And with the cap going up as much as it is, we're going to see a big spike probably in some of these high-end salaries. And it's going to be, you know, the hawks are going to have to be very careful not to become the new Maple Leafs where they just spend half their cap on four guys. So it'll be interesting to see how a lot of these teams do that. If we see the return of the bridge contract,

if some of these guys look at Connor McDavid and go, maybe I don't want to lock myself in for eight years at 20 years old, maybe we see some change in the way some of these teams start spending money. I'd like to see that. As a fan, you like your team to, you know, your stars to stay forever. As kind of like an unbiased observer, I look at like the NBA offseason every year and I'm jealous. That looks fun as hell.

Let's get some player movement and some drastic changes where teams can completely remake themselves. every year. So I'm kind of hoping we see the return of the bridge contract instead of just keep giving out these eight-year deals. Yeah, if you could tweak one or two rules to make the NHL offseason just a hell of a lot more exciting, you would lower the free agency age from 27 or seven years to like 25 or six years. And you would try to have the team control years drop, even by like one year from from seven to six uh that is the you know that's the quickest path if you can do really i think i'm just talking about the same rule i just said it two different ways

uh but if you can just drop that so the guys are able to hit the market at 25 or 26 or after five or six years i think it would make a massive difference on how much yeah i mean the a player's prime especially for a forward a player's prime these days is like 22 23 24 years old when they're locked under player team control. So you're moving these guys at 28, 29 finally when there might be on the decline already. Like that's just the like a defenseman's peak is still kind of that late 20s, you know, Kail McCars and Adam Foxes aside. But your average forward is at his very, very best in their early 20s now.

Yeah. Imagine if you could get a guy in free agency that was 25 and let's say the max contract was like five or six years instead of eight. You get a guy at 25, 26 and then he hits free agency again at 30, 31 with. And there's clearly still a market from teams to go get players like that. You can get two big paydays, two very big opportunities for player movement. Now, NHL players also seem the least inclined to want to move teams of all of it. And that's a culture thing that rules will not necessarily change.

But I would love to see the impact of something like that. Yeah, whenever I talk to an agent and I usually try not to talk to agents because like talking to agents in general. But I'm always telling you, like, you guys, it's on you guys. It's on the agents to explain. explain to the players the advantages of a more volatile system of, of not locking yourself in because I don't think some players, like, I did, I remember I talked to a bunch of the stars at the, at the draft last year, the guys that were in there for the awards. You know, we're talking Kiel McCarr and Connor McDavid and some of the best in the world.

And they were like, I just, you know, don't want to have to think about this stuff for eight years. Like, that's what it is. They're not really worried about injuries. It's not really that. I had one assistant GM telling me, he's like, that's a fallacy because hockey injuries, you tend to be able to recover from. These aren't like, it's not like a pitcher whose arm explodes.

Like it's usually broken bones and things that heal for the most part in hockey. It's surgeries. It's things you can return from. So it's not people think that other sports so rough and tumble that the injury risk is higher. They want to lock themselves in. It's not that. It's they just, they just don't want to think about it.

They don't like dealing with it. They, it's like they find it gosh to talk about. Like, it's really strange. And it's really on the agents to push the players in that direction where they could really make a lot more money. Well, I will say it's how I'm wired to.

Like, I want to just make my plans for the next like five to 10 years and know, okay, this is, you know, where I'm going to live and whatever, right? Like, so I can very much relate to that. I do not feel the need to just chase top dollar if I can have the piece of mind that's worth a ton to me. So I get that actually completely. And everyone knows top dollar in journalism is exactly the same. Oh, yeah, maybe 12.5 million. Back it up.

Oh, I just got 12.6. So I had to be the highest paid on staff. All right, we're back. And we are joined now by Jesse Granger. But before we get to the slate of things we want to talk to him about today, Laz, I do have something I wanted to ask you about because I've listened to you and Ian's show several times where a certain topic has come up. And I think even when you were guesting on other hosted shows before you had a dedicated day of this podcast, and you have a very strict definition of the word dynasty when it comes to hockey.

And I have a bone to pick with it. But first, why don't you tell everybody your... I have the actual definition of dynasty. A dynasty is a ruler who holds power for multiple years in a row. Three, four, five, six, twenty hundred years in a row. So a dynasty is three Stanley Cups in a row. And I will hear no other possibilities. People in Chicago hate me for this because I will never refer to the Blackhawks 2010 to 2015 as a dynasty.

Because it is not a dynasty. the Los Angeles Kings won two cups during that time. The Boston Bruins won a cup during that time. That ain't no dynasty. Dynasties do not yield power for a year at a time. But they also don't only last three years either. Like the first time I heard you tell it, you were like the Ming's didn't give up power after two years. But they also didn't get up after three or after four.

We're talking in the scale of hundreds. That's true. We have to be, we have to at least scale it down to a reasonable level, right? So, but it has to be consecutive. It has to be like because two is a repeat. Two has a name already. Three is when you become a dynasty. I think three and four is probably the, to me, the bar.

I think you're allowed to like, especially if you made another deep playoff run. The Edmonton Oilers of the 80s were not a dynasty. I just so I feel like because when you tell the story, you're like there was a cover. I don't know what paper it was. Wow, you really do listen. It was a news day. Oh, look, I'm a junkie. In the headline, but in my head, I'm like, you can't just.

just take the thing that happened in your childhood, who was on the cover of the newspaper when you were 15 and make that the forever rule. That's exactly how it works, actually. It said right on the top of the news days, it said, The Islanders won their third Stanley Cup. My dad had the Newsday. And now they're a dynasty and there were three Stanley Cups there. And that is lodged in my brain and I refuse to let it out.

It'll be there forever and I'm right and you're all wrong. Jesse, am I right or is Max right? So I think you're right. I actually like your definition, but it's not as much fun because we're never going to have any dynasties because the salary. It should be special. I mean, special. Yeah, I like,

I agree with you. Are the Tampa Bay Lightning a dynasty? Kind of. I mean, they didn't do three and four. They just went back to back. But then they went to the final the next year. But they didn't win another.

I'm saying three and four, I think, is to me what the bar would have to be. Tell that to the Habsburgs. To me, it's like, I feel like the way I've always said it is there's a total difference between what a dynasty was pre-salary cap and what a dynasty is now. And I feel like Tampa Bay fits what a dynasty is now, but I totally get what you're saying.

What I've always said, I fully agree with you there that it's like the world has changed. It's much harder to do. Like the New England Patriots are not a dynasty. That's crazy. That's crazy. What we need and what I've always said is we need a new term for it. We need a term for an extended period of dominance where you spike a few championships. We need a new term because dynasty, it's a word.

Words have meanings. And the word dynasty does not mean what the New England Patriots were. Words meanings also evolve, right? Like there is now, I believe, in the dictionary under the word literally. I think there's a sub definition that's just figuratively. That's depressing as hell, man. I don't know. My 12-year-old would probably call it Sigma or she would say skibbitty toilet just to piss me

off. I don't know. We need a new word. We really do need to come up with a new term for what the Blackhawks were in the 2010s, what the New England Patriots were, what Golden State Warriors were. We need a new term for this because they're not dynasties, but it's almost more impressive than the dynasties were to be able to do it in this era. We just need a new word for it, man. Just call it a dynasty. Not a dynasty. The easiest thing is we all understand what everyone's saying when we're talking about the dynastic New England Patriots. You're going to confuse people when you talk about the dominant New England Patriots. Anyway, Jesse's here, despite his dismissive introduction by Max,

Jesse is here. He's brought to us, as always by BetMGM, the official betting partner of the athletic. And we're going to talk about some of the betting odds with the Vesna goalies, next year's Vesna winners next in a moment. But I want to talk to you about your, you and who is it? It was you and McIndoe and Scott Wheeler, right? You came up with your, describe what you mean by the goalie rankings, because it's not a traditional goalie ranking.

Yeah, so we wanted to do something a little bit different. So we did current and future goaltending outlook is the way we described it. And what we did was we had me rank the teams 1 through 32 in current goaltending. And by that, we define it by the next three years. So which teams goaltending would I want for the next three years ranked them 1 to 32? Then we had Scott Wheeler obviously do his thing with the prospects. And he ranked 1 to 32, their pipeline. line the goalies that aren't ready for the pros yet, but will be. And then McIndoe did the salary

caps. So which salary cap situation would he want, ranked him 1 to 32. We weighted them a little bit differently. Obviously, the current goalies matters the most because the prospects are hard to predict and you never know how that's going to pan out. So we we waited that one the more than the other two. And then we averaged it out just to see what the formula would come up with. And like, honestly, we didn't even know what the formula was going to come up with. It was a little surprising to us. I think the three stories, because we broke it into three segments, had over, like, over a thousand comments. So it surprised the readers as well. But it was a fun exercise. It was really cool. I think the one that stood out to me, and this is where I got confused in some of the mechanics

of it, was, you know, a team with Ilya Sorokin under contract for the next eight years is one of the worst in the league. I don't under, I, that's baffling to me. And I guess, yeah, you probably don't have that many prospects in the system, but he's a relatively young goalie. and he's going to be there for a long time. How do you, how do you wait? And again, I think it comes down to salary cap probably because there's just this belief in the world that you should never pay goalies any money.

Right. So I will say that I do think that the model has a bit of a blind spot. And the blind spot is the teams with great young goalies. It doesn't matter if you have prospects. Like we actually had to change the waiting on the prospects to even less after we saw what the formulas spit out. Because Jake Ottinger, for example, like Dallas doesn't have a, doesn't have a,

Young prospect, but who cares? Who cares? He's going to play every game for the next 10 years, and he's awesome. The Sorokin one is interesting because we all assume Ilius Sorokin is an elite goalie, but McIndoo, as he does, pointed out to me that three years ago, he showed me some goalie rankings from three years ago, and he's like, look at these, and look at how different it actually, it wasn't even three, it was two years ago. And UC Soros wasn't in the top 10, and Jeremy Swamen and Alainus Olmark, nobody even knew

they were. And these things change very quickly. And you give Sorokin this massive extension. And then last year, he wasn't the starter in the playoffs. He lost his job. Now, he lost his job to one of the best backups in the league, Verlamov. But it's not like he just like was so bad they had to throw anybody in there. But he did lose his job. So things can change quickly. You sign a big deal like that. McIndoo especially was very hesitant on teams with, that gave goalies big money. You know me. I'm the goalie guy. I think they should all get big money. So I'm not, I'm not as anti, I'm not as anti. It's so funny to me because like, on the one hand, goalies are clearly the most important position in all of sports and a hockey goalie. I mean, determine the winner more than any other position.

Right. More than quarterback, more than, you know, point guard. Like, it's not even close. It's the goalies. On the other hand, goaltending is so freaking random and inexplicable most the time, no matter how much technical mumbo jumbo, jumbo, you throw at me, Jesse. It's all magic to me. It's all voodoo. That it's really hard to commit that much money for long term. You look at the Babarowski contract. It was the worst contract in hockey until he randomly won the Stanley Cup. And dragged the team to the cup final two years in a row.

It wasn't like a one and the medical run. Like now the contract's awesome. I will say this because you're not the only person in the world that feels goaltending is voodoo and that it's random. I totally disagree with the fact that goalies are random. I think that goalie statistics are random and impossible to predict. Because they are so heavily influenced by what's happening in front of them, a great goalie.

Like UC Soros, for example, I'm going to tell you right now, UC Soros is going to be awesome for the next five years, period. I am positive if that's going to happen. Now, am I positive he's going to be statistically awesome for the next five years? Absolutely not. Such goalie talk. I have no, because because you have.

He's awesome. I don't care if his results are good or bad. He's awesome. No, it doesn't work that way. To me, that's because we don't have the metrics yet. And I think puck tracking, I think we will get there eventually. I'm not smart enough to figure out this. Somebody out there will be eventually. We will have better statistics to grade goalies based on their actual performance. How often they're in position. How often they're squared the puck. How often they're leaving holes. Like, I think that there is a way to grade goalies that's better than. we're doing it. We just don't have it. We haven't figured it out yet. And I think that because the statistics we currently use are so bad at grading the goalie and they and they're so much have they have so much more to do with the play in front of them. We then think that goalies are impossible. Who knows if this goalie will be good next year? No, I know. He's going to be good. But if you play like crap in front of him, his stats are going to be shit. That's how it works. So to me, that's, that's, I think goalie is not quite as random as we think it is. But I do think that it is still

harder to project because it's more mental. Physically, you get a winger who's got an awesome shot. That guy's going to score 40 goals for the next 10 years. It's easier to predict. I think a goalie because it's all about reading the play, it's not as about physical attributes. I think it is more difficult to project than the other positions. It's just not quite as random as maybe some, like, we project it to be. This is the product of, of course, nobody knowing what we're looking at with goalies, except for people who have pretty much played the position, because that is kind of the old way it works is like when you understand something you could watch it and analyze it and whatever but for the rest of us we don't know what we're looking at so let's go to the numbers as fast as possible

so we can feel like there's some authority behind what we're saying yeah like we all we all know what a good winger looks like when he's throwing a goal we know what a goal he's like doing the reverse vh oh he left a little slot over here i don't tell he's doing it is it's harder it's harder to evaluate even people that played i played the goalie my whole life i i think there's a goal he's going to be awesome he sucks it's like it's it is a difficult position to evaluate I'm not going to say it's easy, but I do think that we should realize that the stats don't always tell us who the best goalies are. In the same way that they, I think for the stats, goals and assists are a very good indicator of how well a forward is playing. Defensemen, you can look at their on-ice numbers, what kind of expected goals they're given up per 60.

Like, I think we have better statistics for the forwards than we do the goalies. And I've been arguing that for a while. I hope someday we have better stats. We'll see. So a couple of things that jumped off on this list to me, Jesse. the team I cover. You got the revenues of the number 32 goaltending situation going into 2024, 25. And I know that's surprised a lot of people in Detroit. Can you kind of talk us through? Because I think I look at it, and I see Alex Lyons, like a league average goalie last year.

Then they bring in Camp Talbot, who, to your point, is going to be in for a world of shock transitioning from the L.A. defense. Hey, that's two-time All-Star right there. Come on. But that's kind of my point. It's going to be a big difference going from L.A. to Detroit. But he's also kind of steady Eddie. He kind of does that everywhere, 9-08 to 9-9-20. somewhere, right? Right. Yeah. I don't think Cam Talbot's a bad goal.

I think the Red Wings got a bunch of okay goalies. So just a little bit like a little view behind the curtain inside my head when I'm ranking these one to 32, when I'm looking at the next three years, I am looking for teams with a difference making goalie because I think there are so many decent goalies out there. I mean, 80 goalies play in the NHL every year now, like because they rotate so many and so many have been getting hurt. To me, it's not that hard to find a league average. goal. Lying. He's going to be league average. He's probably not going to kill you. He's going to give you a

chance to win on most nights. I don't think that's that difficult to find. So when I am looking at each of these teams, I'm saying, okay, over the next three years, how likely is it one of these guys is going to be a difference-making goalie for this team? And I just, the Red Wings have a bunch of NHL goleys right now. You throw Campbell in there and they've got a ton. I just don't think any of them are going to make a difference. Now, the prospects, that's the exciting thing, is they're number one on the prospects and they've got two of them. They're probably the only team with two stud prospects that have a chance to be an absolute like difference making goalie. But the current ones I'm not as, I'm not as optimistic on. I think Talbot was a product. I think Talbot played well last year,

but I think it's easy to play well behind the Kings. You saw David Riddick go in and be awesome. Like off the couch. Like David Riddick hadn't played in forever and he just goes in there and he, I think he's like fourth in goals saved above expected per 60 minutes. Like I think that king's defense gives up very predictable shots. And anyone that's of NHL caliber and is a pro like Cam Talbot is like the ultimate pro can go in there and make those saves. So I don't expect Talbot to put up to put up the numbers he did last year. Yeah.

He has an upgrade. I do think he upgrades Detroit's goaltending. And if they're trying to make the playoffs, I think he is better than what they had last year, just not significant. I don't see him coming in and dominating. They upgraded from 30 second to 30 second apparently. It's not much of an upgrade. Closing a gap on the field.

I was surprised that they were one in the future rankings, too. But that kind of speaks. You kind of already hit that earlier in the show when you talked about kind of the model undervaluing like the current guys in the future. I love when you like Dom does this all the time where he argues with the model he created. What about the model surprised you, Jesse? What team stood out to either positive or negative that you were surprised where a team slotted in?

Well, like to me the one, and this is the one that got the most complaints from the readers. And I totally understand it because the lightning and the Jets were not very high. And they both have the two best goalies in the league. I mean, Andre We were just talking in Dom's efficiency rankings. He had Vasilevsky with like a D plus. Right. And that's that is

and that's why the lightning were low on this list is Vaselowski didn't have a great season coming off of back surgery. And you never know how these things are going to go. A player has a major, major injury, comes back, doesn't look himself. They don't always get back to themselves. Now, I saw some flashes during the playoff. I think Vasilevsky started to feel more like himself.

I expect him to be good this year. But if he's not, and he's got to be because of that contract, he's got to be exceptional. He's got to be top five. Otherwise, the contract's not any good. So I think that there is some risk there. And then the Jets, obviously, they signed Hellebuck to that really long-term deal. And that's McIndoo's argument as well. Now you're paying him for that.

So it's no longer a value. We'll see. I still think because, again, we talk about how unpredictable this position is, I would argue that a goalie like Connor Hellebuck is so valuable because he is as consistent as it gets. I don't know if Connor when I kind of wrote about this in the story and the fans kind of were like Conor Hellebuck's ceiling is not high. I don't understand what you're saying. He won the Vezna. Like how much higher than the ceiling can get. What I'm trying to say is when Connor Hellebuck has his A game, I don't think he's as hard to score on as Igor Shisterkin and Andrei Vasselowski when they're on their A game. I think their game has a higher ceiling because they're so athletic and so flexible.

They're just exceptional athletes, whereas Connor Hullabuck, not as flexible, not as explosive. But he just, he has this B plus game every single night out there. And that's why over the last five years, no goalie has been more consistent. I would pay for that. I think a position where no one can predict, you know you're going to get very high-level goal-tending for the next five years. I would sign that if I was the Jets. So I like where the Jets are a lot more than what they're ranking on that position showed.

Because of the cap, I'm not as afraid of the deal. I feel like you can't win almost if you're a GM. Like you have to find the goal. You have to find the goalie. But then once you pay the goalie, oh, you shouldn't have paid the goalie. Yep. Yep. Well, it kind of reminds me of like in the NFL, you hear a lot like, because goalies and

quarterbacks, we compare them a lot because of how much emphasis is put on the position, how much it affects winning. In the NFL, you want a quarterback, but also how many times do you hear? Well, you've got to win when they're on that rookie deal. Like you get a quarterback in and while they're cheap, you can load the defense up before you pay. To me, it's almost the same for goalies. You get an elite goalie.

Now we know he's a. elite. How long do we have until we have to pay him like he's elite? We better win before then type of thing. Jesse, we're only 20 minutes removed from last comparing goalies to NFL running back. So that is the biggest. I'm on this podcast. Yeah, exactly. That is the full spectrum of how to value and appreciate goalies there. Running back to quarterback. I'm a guy. I've had, I had Connor Hela Buc's second on my heart ballot this year. And he was number one most of the year until he kind of stumbled in March. I had Devin Dubnick as number one of my heart ballot years ago. led the wild to a playoff spot with an amazing second half.

Like I am all about the value of goaltending. It's just it's so hard to quantify and it's so hard to predict that it's just, it's so hard to give out a contract. I agree with the comparison to running backs in terms of how they're being used in the NHL right now in terms of, well, if we just get three of them that are okay and then one of them is hot at a time, we'll be great. Like there are our teams out there that are absolutely operating that way. The devils are the other team on this list, just really quick, that stood out to me

because at least I have been treating it like, oh, they got Markstrom. Now they're set. This is like an all-day top-10 goalie. He's what they were missing. You know, they don't rank low here. I think they rank literally 10th overall, but 13th on the current list. I'm curious, like, are we at the point now where Markstrom's age has, you know, he's at a couple down years in the last five?

Like, is he now into that point of like anything could happen here? Or is he still closer to what I'm treating him as like a bankable top 10 goalie? I like Markstrom a lot. And I mean, last year he was awesome. I think even better than his statistics show because Calgary was a dumpster fire defensively. And he faced more high danger shots, I think, than any goal in the league. And was either first or second in save percentage on those high dangers specifically. I think he's still very good.

The age hurts him. I love what Calgary has this year because Jake Allen backup, phenomenal backup, and you know exactly what you're going to get every night, super pro. But he's also up there in age. I think they've got two goalies that eventually the cliff's going to, like they're going to hit the cliff. relatively soon. I like what they have in Markstrom right now. I think he's going to be great for him this year.

I picked the Devils to make the Cup final in our prediction. So I'm very high on New Jersey with Markstrom. I also think it's going to be interesting to watch how it fits. But I think stylistically, Markstrom is a perfect fit for the Devils because he excels in chaos, high danger chances, rush chances, two on ones going the other way. And the Devils have a bunch of speed. They'll trade chances with you. Like, okay, we'll give you five high dangers.

If we get five high dangers and we like our chances to score more, I think Markstrom's the type of goalie to give up those kind of chances to and have him steal you a few. So I'm fascinated to see how he works with the devils this year. I expect him to be good. So we just spent 20 minutes talking about how impossible it is to forecast what a goaltender is going to do. So let's forecast what a goaltender is going to do. Next year's Vesna odds are already available on BenMGM.

And you got Hella Bucks Jess Durkin and Jeremy Swamen, co-favorits at Plus 600, followed by Sorokin and Demko at Plus 800 and Vasselowski at plus 1,200. What do you make of Swamen being considered one of the three best goalies in the league? Well, I think that the Vezina, the way the Vesna has voted on is often the goalie who was good, who was on a really good team. Most wins, yeah. And to me, that's why Swamon's up there is Boston's going to play well.

They're going to play a good defensive hockey. He's going to win a bunch of games. I think that he was a monster in the playoffs. And now that Olmark leaves, everyone's expecting. swam into his workload to go way up. So maybe that's part of why I, again, these numbers are always affected by how many people are betting on it. So maybe people are projecting Swayman to come to come up the ranks now that he's getting to play

a little more. But yeah, I think it is interesting. The one other thing that I found super interesting with those odds is UC Soros way down the list at 1,500 to 1. So plus 1,500, 15 to 1. I find that very surprising because UC Saros, is a stud, and now he's got the team. I also think that this award, Mark Andre Fleury, won it a couple years ago.

I think it can become somewhat of a legacy award in terms of, well, if it's close, again, we don't know what we're watching. If it's close, let's just give it to the guy who maybe has deserved it, but hasn't won one, and UC Soros is that guy. Like, if it's UC Soros and someone else, he has been so good the last few years, but the Predators haven't been the best team. They haven't scored the most goal support for him. I think it was two years the year before last season he had like 51 goals saved above expected

second highest for a single season since they started tracking the stat 16 years ago UC Saros has had some amazing seasons that deserved a Vesina and he hasn't won one so I think if he's in the conversation he gets that tiebreaker I really like UC Soros next year to win the Vesna with all that firepower that Nashville added this offseason it's his turn factor it could be a powerful power that that's the Norris that's how the Norris is the decided year after year. It's decided in October. It's this guy's turn, though. It's high skinned's turn, by the way. It absolutely is.

It absolutely is. All right, Jesse Granger, always good to have you on the show. Go look up his rankings over there on The Athletic.com. We're going to finish up real quick here with a couple of mailbag questions. Max, this one's for you. Rdi asks, I'd like to know what your thoughts are. Oh, I looked at the wrong one. I'm sorry. Grindline Pod.

Do you see the Detroit Red Wings in the 2024, 2025 playoffs as it's. stands today. We kind of touched on that and I think the answer is no, isn't it? Yeah, no, I don't see it. I think that they kind of maybe treaded water at best, but I think two things. A, I think they're going to take a step back, you know, three, four points, not a massive one, but a little bit of kind of shooting percentage regression. They were like the number three highest shooting percentage in the league last year. I don't really see that sustaining, especially some of the guys that walked out. You try to make up for it defensively, but we'll see, you know, how much of it, how much you can kind of counteract that trade off. A lot of goals walked out the door. The other thing is,

I think the playoff bar this year was exceptionally low. And so the Red Wings were in a tiebreaker situation to make the postseason this year. But it was at 91 points. And I think much more likely that playoff cutoff is going to be more like 96 points. So I think it's possible that they, you know, dropped by two points to 89. But there are eight points out of the playoffs all of a sudden instead of, you know, a tiebreaker out of the playoffs that it feels like a way bigger catastrophe than maybe that would otherwise suggest to drop by two points. Yeah, I feel like people never fast.

factor in the, it's not just you have to make up ground. It's someone else has to fall out of the playoffs. And, you know, like if you're a Blackhawks fan right now, and you see all the teams in the Central Division that are locked in for years to come, including Nashville now, an elite team, Colorado is still an elite team, Winnipeg, an elite team. And then you throw in Utah, which is ahead of you in the curve, it's just, there's no path to the playoffs this year.

It's almost mathematically impossible. It's not just about your team. It has to be about some other team falling out, too. And we all just agree that the devils are taking one of the, of those, right? Jesse says that in the cup final. I think I might have had him in the cup final in that same poll because I think they won that poll for our staff. So, okay, that's one in. So yeah, sure, that bumps out somebody, Washington or the Islanders or whatever. So you got Detroit and Ottawa and Buffalo all expecting to make that next step, but there's just not going to be a spot for him.

Yeah, they can't all do it. All right, Italian sub guy. That's, that should be my handle. Hey, Mark, how do you suggest the Blackhawks get an elite forward to pair with Bedard within the next few years? I think they'll need to add one, whether it be through the draft or via trade or free agency. So I don't think any of the guys in the system scream 80, 90 plus point guys. This is why they should have taken Ivan Demadoff in the first round this year at number two overall instead of Artem Leveshanov, who's going to be a good player. But they need, Connor Bardard needs a running buddy for the next 10, 15 years, right? And they've got a ton of picks, a ton of high-end guys, Oliver Moore and Frank Nazar and Sasha Boy Ver and Merrick Vanekar. They've got options in the system, but I agree.

none of them scream 90 point guy, I think they're going to have to go out and get like Mitch Marner in two years. Like, you know, just like in the late 2000s, when they had to go get Brian Campbell and Marion Hosa to put him over the top, maybe they go and Mitch Marner at 28, 29 years old, whatever he'll be. And he becomes the guy for Badar because I'm not convinced they've got one in the system. Now, they'll have a top five pick again next year, even with all the guys they brought in like we talked about.

There's, they can improve by 30 points and still be an 82 point team. They're going to have a high traffic this year. So maybe they find someone in the draft next year, but I really think that they should have taken Demadov and hope that he would have been that guy. I do love that even Blackhawks fans worry about this. Like this is the kind of questions that I get on a daily basis. And so I almost laughed when I read this on the show sheet today because I was like, oh, yeah, the team that won the Connor Bedard lottery is worried about where it's going to find its next star. Okay. You need more than one.

You need your dry saddle to your McDavid. You need your, you're ranting into your McKinnon. you need your mourner to your Matthews, right? Yeah, well, I don't think they're going to have a problem doing it. A, like you said, they're going to have a top five pick next year. And I wouldn't completely rule it out the year after that either. You never know what happens in these and how long it takes to get out of this, this kind of spot in the cycle.

And B, they should have plenty of cap space in the coming years that if they want to target one of those big guys, that's going to be an option for them. All right. I'm just glad we made it this far into the show without mentioning state taxes. So I think that's a win for us. We didn't. We mentioned it earlier. Did we?

Yeah, with the Harvard survey. I thought we skipped it. Oh, man. All right. Well, then I guess we hit our legal quota of having to mention tax-free states. There we go. We did it. Come back on Thursday where Sean Gentile and Haley-Salvian will be here.

Do fill in the gaps here in the summer of content. But until next week, I'm Mark Lazarus, and that's Max Boltman. And this has been the athletic hockey show.