The Athletic Hockey Show - Dominoes left to fall- Where do Alex DeBrincat and Vladimir Tarasenko land?

Episode Date: July 6, 2023

Ian Mendes and Sean McIndoe have returned home from Nashville, though one had an easier journey than the other. First, they dive into the dominoes that are left to fall in the offseason, including the latest with Alex DeBrincat and Vladimir Tarasenko. Also, as Max Domi joins the Toronto Maple Leafs, a discussion about sons that have played for the same franchise as their dads. Then, future considerations are explained in the mailbag, and it's all wrapped up with "This Week in Hockey History".Have a question for the show? Email [e-mail] or leave a VM: [phone]!Subscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowSave on a subscription to The Athletic: theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. It is your Thursday edition, the Athletic Hockey Show. As always, sitting in these chairs. It's Ian Mendeusey for the next hour or so. It feels like more than a week has passed since we sat, you, me, Jesse Granger in that hotel room in Nashville. That feels like it was a month ago. That feels like a very long time.

Yeah. We talked about on that pod last. Thursday, your travel adventures to Nashville. I have not reconnected with you about your travel adventures leaving Nashville. Did you have a, uh, like, was it smooth, not smooth? Because there was a like, it was disastrous getting out of Nashville. It was not smooth. I woke up on travel day to a text from the travel company saying my flight had already been canceled. Um, not, they weren't even messing around. No delays, no come to the airport, just like, you're on your own. You live in Nashville now. You're not getting out. So I was eventually able to to rebook and to get to, getting to

Ottawa was a no-go, which is, which is a little bit frustrating since, you know, that's where we live, but I eventually, you know. Minor detail. I connected with the company people, they tried. God bless them, they tried very hard. They weren't able to get anything. So I was kind of on my own. And I sort of said, man, if I can just get back to Canada, if I can get to Toronto or Montreal, it's relatively easy to get to Ottawa from Toronto or Montreal. So I ended up getting a flight to Toronto out of Atlanta.

So got from Nashville to Atlanta relatively straightforward. got out off the ground in Nashville, which was more than... That's huge. Happened for a lot of our colleagues. And then got to Atlanta, sat around, watched that flight get delayed over and over and over again. Atlanta apparently that day had like a, they shut down the airport for a few hours. So everything coming in and out was a mess. And that's a massive hub, right?

Like Atlanta is crazy. Yeah. And like I was on Delta. And at some point like, because getting from Nashville to Atlanta, the flight was delayed. And at some point she comes on. And she's like, look, folks, if, like, everybody keeps coming up and trying to get me to rebook their flights, like, we're Delta. Everything's going through Atlanta. Like, if there's no Atlanta airport, I can't help you.

Like, there's, so, um, eventually got to Atlanta, waited for a very long time for that plane. Uh, it finally got there. They started boarding. Everybody was getting on. And it, I mean, there's no worse feeling because you're seeing all the people, like all the pre-borders. Like, I'm talking like small children, people in wheelchairs. Yeah. going down the aisle and then they come back out.

And you're like, that's not good. That's definitely not good. And it turned out we didn't have a pilot, which I get, I'm not an aviation expert, but that feels important. And we sat there for a few more hours. And unbelievably, a pilot actually showed up. We all figured there was no way they were finding somebody. I mean, it's like midnight at this point.

So anyways, flew into Toronto, got into Toronto like 2.30 a.m. and took the train to Ottawa the next day to complete the trip. So it was a two-day trip. But despite what I just described, I feel like I'm kind of like in the 50th percentile of travel problems getting out of Nashville because it was not good. There were storms. There were all sorts of things. I know we had some colleagues have everything. just totally canceled. Thomas Drance ended up doing free agency just down there. It was very funny at one point. He tweeted out like a photo of Barry Trots at a press conference. And people were like, why are you still in Nashville? And he was like, you don't want to know. So it was rough.

It was rough for every other than you. I mean, you just had like a private helicopter right to Toronto both ways, I think. So you know, you know what? So the draft, day two of the draft was Thursday in Nashville. On Friday in Toronto, I had my parents' 50th wedding anniversary. They had a huge thing. So I said to myself, I can't leave it to chance. I've had too many travel mishaps in my life to know trying to get from Nashville, Toronto,

same day, it's too much of risk. That's why I brought my suitcase the day two of the draft and literally left as soon as the draft was over. I grabbed my suitcase, went right to the airport. There was a little bit of a delay. It was about a 90 minute delay. And then I got out, got to Toronto. Thank goodness. Nicely done.

I know. I know. What a harrowing story. Wow, this guy had a 90 minute delay. Did you keep that a secret? Because you knew that if Pierre Dorian got wind of that, that he was going to do the Alex de Brinkett trade at 3 o'clock in the afternoon. I had a long chat with him in the, he was on the next flight.

He was on a flight an hour after me. And we did chat to Brinkett. and we did chat about goaltending and all sorts of things in the waiting area of the... That never stops working. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, there we go. Perfect segue right into the brinket. Because as we're having this conversation, we're recording late, kind of mid-to-late morning on Thursday.

I feel like Alex Dubrinket's going to get moved at some point in the next couple days. Like, it wouldn't shock me. And it's interesting because, you know, for last week we've heard. from Pierre Dorian. We've heard from people saying, if Alex DeBrinquit doesn't sort of ease off his demands, you know, he's not going to get traded. And I think that really, that stuff that got out there, I think the DeBrinquet camp was not happy. So I connect, his agent Jeff Jackson, I connected with him. And Jeff was like, hey, it's not my job to make a trade. That's the GM's job. And I was like, can I quote you on this? He's like, 100%. They were really, I think they were a little bit upset.

with the way that the storyline was being written that De Brinket is holding up a trade. And their point is, I think essentially, I guess we would be the first player in NHL history to hold up a trade without a no trade clause. Like, come on. Like, are you kidding me? I don't have a no trade clause here. Like, if you're saying that you want to trade me, but you want to get the best return, that sounds like a you problem, not a me problem.

That's their point. Okay, that's their all. I always, I was just hoping, I was crossing my fingers that Jeff Jackson would give me, remember last year at the draft with Bill Garrett was asked about Cam Talbot? And he's like, I don't have shit to do. I was hoping it would be that, but it wasn't.

But it was kind of the same lines of, hey, don't blame us. Like, you can trade us, you could trade Alex to Winnipeg. And there's nothing we could do. So this has nothing to do with us. So two things are. First of all, I'm going to just pause here so everyone can update their Ian Mendez swearing scorecards. That's right.

Two. Both of which I got to say were direct quotes. Bill Garin and Snoop Dogg were the two who have got on there. Two times I've scored. Here's my thing on this Alex to Brinket. Because you know, I'm maybe not the last guy, but I'm maybe not the last guy. but I'm one of the last guys who's going to step up and defend Pierre Dorian. Yeah.

But while it is true that Alex de Brinkett does not have no trade protection and can be traded absolutely anywhere, I think the senators have got a point here when they say, look, if we're going to get anything approaching fair value, we need you guys to be partners here and talk to these teams that we're considering moving you to to see if there's a long-term deal there. Because if you're getting,

there is a massive difference between I'm trading for Alex to Brinkett and I'm going to sign him long term. Totally. Versus I'm trading for Alex to Brinkett knowing that in one year he's going to walk to free agency, which he can do. He's now, he's got the power to just play out the year,

wherever it is, including Ottawa. and then walk to UFA and cash in there. So I get it. I mean, you're right. They could trade them to Winnipeg, but they're not going to get anything from Winnipeg if they know it's just a one-year situation. And what I wanted to ask you,

since you've kind of talked to all the sides here, this is just purely me as an outsider watching. I'm looking at this going, But Alex DeBrenka doesn't want to sign anywhere. He wants to just go to free agency. He's looking at this going, I'm one year away from unrestricted free agency. Yeah. It'd be pretty young to hit that unrestricted free agency.

The cap is going up. So there's going to be a bunch of new money in the market. And I'm coming off not a great year by my standards. So I don't want to sign right now with anybody. I want to play one more year, bet on myself and go to free agency. in which case all of this is just kind of a little bit, you know, why not just say that? Why not just say, hey, FYI to anyone who's going to trade for me to Ottawa, so everyone's on the same page, I'm going to hit free agency.

I'm going to test the waters. But that just torpedoes his value for Ottawa, doesn't it? But again, I ask you this. Why is that an Alex de Brinket problem? Like, they structured his contract in a way that he would have leverage. he would be able to monetize himself. And I guess their point is, like, why are we, like, why are you asking us to sign today a long-term deal when, like you said, next year, the landscape could be different. I could, you know, have more money.

I don't hear people saying, like, William Neelander better make a decision this week. William Neelander can wait till next year. Austin Matthews can wait till next year. Alex DeBrington can wait till next year. Like, I think the difference is those guys aren't on the trip. trade market that we know of. And, you know, I do get, I mean, it's, it's sort of a careful what you wish for thing. Because Pierre Dorian is sitting there going, hey, I can't make this trade with one hand tie behind my back. If people don't know Alex De Brinkett's intentions and his situation,

be careful, Pierre, because Alex De Brinkett could come out tomorrow and do what I just said and say, I'm not signing anywhere. I will be an unrestricted free agent next summer. There, that's my situation, at which point all those flashing lights on Pierre Durant's phone all shut off. Because now, I mean, you talk about getting anything even close to what the senators gave up to get them. No one's given up a first round pick, are they, for one year of Alex DeBrickon? I don't think so. But, you know, they, but they knew this situation going in.

It's not like they acquired the player. I'm not saying Alex DeBrinke is doing anything wrong here. No. But I'm saying I am sympathetic to the senators saying, help us out. Two things can be true. The senators should absolutely fight for fair value. And Alex DeBrinkech should absolutely fight for his right to be a UFA. Like, like, two things can be true. I just don't see how the senators negotiate that fair value with the team because they're going to be sitting there looking at, you know, a prospect list and saying, we want a first

round pick and this guy. And the other team might say, yeah, we do that for eight years of Alex DeBrinke. We're not doing it for one year of them. Can we pick up the phone? Can we call him? Can we talk to his agent? Can we find out what the deal is? No, it's, you know what? I think here's the thing. Sometimes situations are so unique that there doesn't have to be a bad guy. And I don't think there should be a bad guy here. I don't, I don't think Pierre Dorian needs to be a bad guy for trying to maximize value for his team. And I don't think Alex DeBrinke and his camp should be painted as a bad guy for wanting to monetize and maximize themselves. That's all. And that's it.

And it's a very unique situation. We saw it with Matthew Kachukh last year. And it did take a little bit longer. They didn't get Kachuk done until late July. Kachuk was willing to sign wherever he went. No, but he gave a small list. Yeah. I think out like, and I know this is out there, I think he'd go home to Detroit.

I think he would. I think he would feel comfortable there. I think like, you know, he's got family there, all that stuff. Spence's off-season there. I think he would go back and sign. So, yeah, there are certain options for him on the table. But if you're Steve Eiserman, you're probably thinking, well, hang on here. If he's not willing to sign anywhere and we think we could maybe get him 12 months from now,

why wouldn't we just wait, sign them as a UFA without giving up anything? And away we go, right? You could think that, although that sounds a lot like, where Montreal was at with Pierr-Lube Dubois. Yeah. What could happen? Yeah, it's, it's, it's, I just, I think you nailed it. It's not a bad guy situation.

And I don't even think that you retroactively look at the trade that the senators made last summer for to Brinket and say, now it's a bad trade. Because this is, it certainly seems like, the most likely scenario is they're going to get one year of Alex to Brinkett, one year where he didn't really live up to expectations, and then they're going to have to flip him for less than they gave up to get him. But, you know, we all liked that trade at the time. And we liked it even knowing that there was a risk that this exact situation could unfold. And now it's happening.

But I don't think you retroactively then get to go back and say, well, it was a mistake. I think it was worth the swing. And we'll see. Here's my other question for you. Let's say that I'm right. And again, to emphasize, I haven't talked. I don't talk to anybody. You and I, this is the only conversation I have all week with any other human being.

So I don't know anything about what Alex D'Mariccan is thinking. I'm just saying from the outside, it looks like a guy who wants to go to free agency. If that is actually the case, and he either says that publicly or he says it to Pierre Dorian or he says to whoever, I'm not signing any long-term deals. I'm going to free agency. And whatever team I play for next year, it's a one-year stop. is Ottawa just that team? Do they just hold on to them and say,

because who's going to want? I mean, a contender, yes, if there's a contender out there, but there's not a lot of contenders who have the cap space to add an Alex to break it. There's a few, so maybe that makes more sense. But we've said over and over again,

this Ottawa team's under tremendous pressure to make the playoffs next year. Yeah. And right now, I don't think they're one of the eight best teams in the league, or sorry, eight best teams in the conference. They're, I mean, who are they passing?

Who spot are they taking? You look at the eight playoff teams. You kind of go, the islanders look vulnerable. Yeah, that's it. That's maybe it. And I mean, I put Buffalo ahead of Ottawa right now, let alone Pittsburgh is still, you know, who knows what they're going to do. Pittsburgh is absolutely.

Anyways, it's certainly no sure thing. You then take Alex DeBrenkent out of the lineup for the senators. and put in some draft picks or whatever. I mean, that doesn't make them any better. It doesn't make sense for them to just say, okay, if we're going to have a motivated guy, going to a free agency, looking to prove it in a contract year,

maybe we're the team that makes the most sense. And there's the arbitration hammer that the senators are hoping maybe they, I think they feel like if they went to arbitration with the brinket, if that's the road they choose, that they could get a little reduction in the salary. They could probably convince an arbitration. trader that, you know, paying him 7.65, he's worth it. He's not a 9 million player for next season.

I think they could probably try and. And usually in arbitration, right, you say, you don't want to go down that road because it destroys relationships. We've heard all the stories of players having to sit in the room and listen to them, the GM and whoever, tear him down. If you're only going to have the guy for a year, you don't really have to worry about that. Maybe it fires him up. Maybe he goes out there and tries to stuff it down the team's throat every, every, Knight by scoring 50 goals. Do you wonder about the dynamics? Like I wonder, and again, I don't think the situation is untenable right now.

I don't think there's irreconcilable differences. I think there's just some really good posturing going on from both sides and both. So I don't think this is like they can't ever work together. I think they could. But I wonder how difficult it would be for the guys that have signed up in Ottawa, like Brady, like Tim, like Josh, Norris, some of the guys who have signed for seven, eight years, and looking at this guy saying, like, oh, wow, okay, you don't want to be a part of this. That kind of hurts. Like, but at the same time, I also know that players always have each other's backs. And they're always

of, hey, go get paid, go home. Because it's funny, right? Ottawa fans loved it when Claude Jureu came home. Loved it. Like, Claude came home. He wanted to come home. I don't think you can simultaneously applaud Claude Jerufa coming home and then ripping Alex De Brinkin for wanting to do the same thing and wanting to go home. Fair. That's all. I do want to talk about the piece that you wrote today with the trading in the division, trading to Detroit, because I thought this was a, like, this is something that bugs me a lot.

People know my ongoing, I'm always ripping on the GMs for being, you know, too risk-averse. They're always coming up with excuses not to trade. and the number of GMs who just don't want to seem to trade within the division. That's it, 25% of the league, just written off. I'm not even going to pick up the phone. So you touched on that. Yeah. And sort of the, this idea that you don't do it in the NHL is just not backed up by the history.

Yeah. Like basically, I look, I just looked at the last five years because I thought, and I took out that weird 2021 season where it was the shortened year and everyone played in like the

what was it like the Discover Central Division or whatever the heck that thing was. You just became the first person to ever use

the actual sponsor. Wasn't it like nobody used that? Yeah. Each one was sponsored but nobody ever called them that. There's no way.

Scotia Bank North Division whatever it was. I took that out because it just was weird because I thought well what qualifies as an indivision trade, right? So just remove it. It was a weird year, 56 games, all that.

And I kind of found, I thought it was interesting that it was roughly in the last five years, 17% of trades happened within the division. So I kind of thought that was a little bit more than I would have thought. I guess, I guess if you look at it. than if it was just, if there was no division effect, but not as low as you might think. Yeah, exactly. So now, I think what's interesting. is that in a lot of these cases, the trades were made when there's like a little bit of a power imbalance, right? Meeting, and Boston and Toronto from, and this is going a little bit further back, but like

the Kessel trade, Boston and Toronto back in the day was a classic, wow, that's a gamble. You're sending a 21-year-old 35 goal score within the division. But remember, Boston at that point had won a division title. Toronto was at the bottom. And so that's a lot of the times you see that, right? You see even Detroit last year, they're like, I will send Tyler Bertuzi to Boston. It's at the deadline.

We're out of it. Whatever. But where I think it's interesting is Ottawa and Detroit are almost at the same point in their developmental curve. That's the issue. And so that's why I brought up circuit chair for Druand. Because those two, interestingly enough, those two teams that the summer when they made that trade,

the habs were coming off, they won the division. Tampa actually, ironically enough, missed the playoffs, but they were only separated by nine points. So that's a gamble, right? You're going to send, if you're Tampa Bay, and ironically, the general manager was Steve Eiserman,

you're going to send a former number three overall pick 22 years old within your division. Boy, that's a gamble, right? Like he could come back to haunt you. They could win division. titles. He could be a 90 point guy. Steve Eisenman was like, I can get Sergeiachev, done deal, right? Like he didn't say I'm sending this guy out of conference, out of division. He did it, right? So I think if you're Peerodorian, if that, if the brinket, if the best return comes from Detroit

and he's willing to sign Detroit, I think you execute Detroit. Me personally, you execute the trade. Yeah. No. That is tough because it's, it's the question is what is the trade? Is it a Drew and Sergeyev where you're trading? I don't remember if that was a one-for-one trade. I don't feel like it was. Was it not one-for-one?

Maybe. Okay. But it's like you're exchanging reasonably equal pieces. That makes sense to me. If it's to brinket for picks or prospects, I do get a little nervous if I'm dory. Just because, look, we just said, whose spot are the senators taken in the playoffs? And we talked about the Islanders. We mentioned the Penguins.

We mentioned the Sabres. I guarantee there were Red Wing fans waving their hand around going, hey, what about us? Remember us? We're the other team that thinks it's getting in there. I would put Detroit behind all those teams, but you put DeBringit on that roster. Maybe they shift up ahead of Ottawa. It's an interesting dilemma, right? Now, again, if you're trading to Brinket and, you're.

it's more of a hockey deal and you're getting stuff back, then all right, hey, we think we like our pieces, you like your pieces, and we'll see how it plays out. But this is, you know, I think I'm somebody who 90% of the time I cringe when I hear anyone talk about don't trade within the, in the division, because it's, no, get the best deal you can't, period. This might be one of the few cases where it might make sense. Now, wasn't it Dorian who didn't want to trade Mike Hawkins? Hoffman in the division years ago. And so sent him to San Jose. And then San Jose immediately flipped him to the Panthers like hours later.

And he wound up back in the same division. And everybody pointed and laughed at the senators for getting, you know, because San Jose got more for Mike Hoffman than they gave up to get him over the course of a few hours. That's the way that it can backfire. Not saying that would happen here. But like, okay. So I also think of this. And I know you're going to laugh at this a little bit. And I brought this up with the story.

Like he was also willing to trade Matt Murray. And I know it's a different circumstance because Murray was, it was more of like, hey, we want to get out from under this contract. But remember this. Before the deal to Toronto, he was within an inch, we think, of trading Matt Murray to Buffalo. And remember, Murray, say what you want about him, but based on his age and his pedigree, was a two-time Stanley Cup winning goalie in the prime of his career. If you were willing to trade that guy to Buffalo, who again, same trajectory, same thing,

would it not stand to reason that you would also trade Alex DeBringit to Detroit if that was the best, most palatable deal for you? It's the same logic, is it not? It's the same logic. Yes. I think it is the same logic. I think Matt Murray was much harder to trade than Alex to bring. I don't think his phone was exactly lighting up.

Right. He may have only had two teams interested in high. Hindsight probably shouldn't even have had those two. But yeah, you know what? Good. He should be exploring every option as every GM should. The only times that I think it makes sense to say, I really don't want to do this in division is number one, if you're talking to a literal franchise play. You're trading Eric Lindross when he's 19. Yeah. Maybe that makes sense. Although, as you say in the article, Wayne Gretzky got traded within the division, the biggest trade ever made. So that's, I I feel like we don't talk about that enough.

Like within the division. And they played each other in the playoffs. When you, you, like, you knew you were going to meet this guy in the playoffs. Yeah. And,

and the other team that he almost went to was Vancouver, apparently. So, you know, they were, they were right in on that. Like, I understand,

like Buffalo saying, hey, we're, we're sending Jack Eichel out of conference. Like, I understand that. Like, it's like the,

I understand that. Like, it's a high end guy that you, you know, It was just too tumultuous. I get it. But I don't know. I think if you're Ottawa,

if you get an okay return from like a Seattle or whoever, but you get a really good return from Detroit, take the better return. Be confident that your team's going to be better. And maybe if it's just picks and prospects, maybe you can still turn around and do something. Maybe you go get Travis Kineckney, right? Maybe you go and get whatever.

Maybe you go do something else. And that brings us to Teresenko because there's a lot of people who think, well, if Ottawa trades to brink it, they could bring in Teresenko. I don't remember the last time a player changed agents like July 3rd. Like that's not a good sign, is it? I don't imagine. That certainly doesn't seem to be. We've seen guys, like I feel like we've seen guys change agents in free agency, but not

this quickly. Usually it's like two weeks in and you can kind of figure out like what's going on here. Like somebody got some bad advice. Somebody was told, hey, don't worry. I know what I do. You know, say no to this offer, we can get a better one. And then next thing you know, you realize I just cost myself a ton of money. To do it this fast, I would love to know the story here.

And I feel like we will at some point. But obviously right now, not so much. Like where do you think, like I think if you pay Terresenko, like he's a 25 goal score, I'm okay with it. I worry that some team is going to pay him like a 35 goal score, which he absolutely was back at the day. He was, no question asked. No questions asked.

I just don't, like I love him on a one-year deal at like four and a half million or whatever. But I suspect if you're Teresenko, you're like, hey, I want multi years and I want five plus, right? I mean, do you want multi-year-so again? Like, this is- If you're Teresenko, why would you, right? situation where, I mean, you do. You want somebody to come and say, you know, here's as many years as possible. Here's as much money as possible. But realistically, we're back in this situation where with the cap going up next year, how much sense does it make for guys to just

say, I'm going to sign for one year, put me in a good spot where I'm going to be able to go. I'll be productive. Hopefully have a nice long playoff run because that's what kind of creates the perception of you as a player. and then I come back into next summer. I mean, next summer is shaping up to be a very crowded market, probably too crowded, probably to the point where, I mean, look, the cap's

going up next year, we're told it's not going up 20 million. Like, it's not like there's going to be just infinite money out there available. It's still going to be tight. But I do wonder if the guys like Teresenko where clearly the offer hasn't been there yet, don't just say, okay, you know what, pivot

the time, I'm going to go to where you're... Like, I mean, that seems to be what happened with Tyler Bertuzi. Doesn't you get the impression that he was... It may be offered short-term deal by Boston. He says, no, I want to go get something long-term. And it was only one day. It was July 2nd. We saw Tyler Bertuzzi go, okay, you know what?

I'll take a year a decent money on a team that's got lots of talented forwards. And then I go back. I hit the market again next year. It almost felt like, and by that point, Boston had moved on and done other things with the cap space they had. But it almost felt like it was that quick of a pivot of, all right, July one, I want long term. All right, didn't get it. It's July 2. Let's grab the one year.

And some guys, I'm not saying it's going to be Teresenko, but there are going to be guys who might wait too long on that. And next thing you know, you're taking one year for not very much money. And now you've got to really go out and prove it. and it could pay off. We always talk about betting on yourself. Not a lot of NHL players seem to want to do it. This is a case where some guys might be forced to. Yeah, it's a game of musical chairs, right?

Like it's, and if you don't have a chair, sometimes some guys just like, get me a chair, I don't care where on July 1st. Like I just want to sign, right? I just want the security. And then, like, you're right. And I kind of feel like Max Domi did kind of, again, I don't know if he would have had a, you would have been a candidate for a long-term deal.

But it's the same thing as Bertucci, right? Where he's banking on the fact that let me go to a team, deep group of forwards up front, likely headed to the playoffs. I could maybe change my reputation a little bit. Maybe I'm a 65-point guy in the regular season, whatever it is. And you know what? If you want to go somewhere and you want to get attention, you're going to keep your name top of mind,

Toronto's, I know everybody completely, planes, ah, Toronto, they get so much coverage. Yeah, it worked good for Michael Bunting. I mean, you go on down the list. A lot of guys go to Toronto, have one or two good years, and then you go cash in because everybody has seen you every night on every highlight because you play for Toronto. Yeah. And I know you tweeted out some, and a bunch of people did.

Those photos of Max Domi looked like he was four years old, five years old, or whatever with Thai Domi. back in the day. Now, in terms of father's son combos with the leiths, the felinos did it, right? Obviously. Nick Filino, yeah, we might prefer not to remember that, but he did, yes. You leave Nick out of this. He's a good one. It just cost the first-owned pick. That was the problem for Toronto. Like what other father-sons have played for the leaves?

Played for the leaps. Yeah. Father-son combos to play for the Leafs. So obviously the domies are about to do it. The Falinos did it. Flinos did it. There's probably some way back in the 1920s, 30s, 40. I mean, you go back then. I mean, there were so many. The conickers or something.

Yeah. People don't really think of either of these guys as Leafs, but Brian Marchment and Mason Marchment. Oh, my gosh. That is a good poll. Right. I never would have thought of that at all. Wow.

That's a pretty good one. And then I was thinking about these two. So are the house, and I know that they played together as teammates, but we're going to remove that for a second because that was in the WHA. But Mark Howe signing and playing with Detroit to play for the same team as his dad, Gordyhow. Is that the greatest father's son combo to play for a franchise? Because if you go through like Brett and Bobby Hill, like Brett never went to Chicago at the end, right?

Like, that would have been the kind of the cool moment. Yeah, and I mean, you could. To date haven't done anything like that. Yeah. And we're not, by the way, we're not doing the Bobby Brad Hall, Winnipeg Jets, Arizona Coyotes thing. Not just for the, not only do, does that not count, but I'm not counting like the three games that Brett Hall lasted in Arizona.

I think it might have been, was it six? I think he played six games. Yeah. I like went for a low number, but I think I think it was it was right around there. Yeah, I mean, they would have to be right, because I mean, you go down the list of all time great players. And I mean, I, I, Gordy Howe is the greatest player to ever have a kid play in the league. So yeah, I think it's, I think it's got to be that one. Yeah.

I couldn't think of another. like kind of iconic father's son. Like there's been, you know, all sorts of Hall of Famers who have had kids, but then for that kid to turn around and play for the same franchise as the dad, it's funny. It's more rare than you would think, right? Yeah. You don't see it as often as you might think.

Because when you first kind of mentioned the question, I was like, oh, well, I mean, there's going to be a million guys. We just got through Draft Weekend, right? You sit there and what is like literally every, every single guy is. the son of some player that you grew up watching and you're to the point where you're sitting there going like, are we making new hockey players? Like, are we running out of, is it just the same? It's a couple of dozen families churning them out. Yeah. But you, so you would think maybe that it would, that it would be more common. But not, there's, there's not as many. There are

certainly there have to be some and I'm sure we're missing a few and then somebody will get us up on Twitter but yeah the the felino's out there definitely for sure um we we thought we were going to get maybe last year uh a kuchuch reunion of sorts in st louis yeah didn't happen they were they they had their eyes on both kids um didn't uh didn't uh didn't uh didn't didn't work out for them. I'm just sort of scanning down the list here. Yeah, I looked it up yesterday. Ken Hodg Jr. did play for the Burrins, but he, and, you know, I would say his dad was a

star level for that team, but. Did Ken Hodge Jr. have like a 30-goal season? He may have. Like, it was rookie year. Yeah, I feel like he was like a all-rooky team guy, but then didn't, didn't last a ton of time. Yeah. I feel like he was. We, of course, cannot leave out, I mean, geez, we're forgetting a Hall of Famer here.

Kevin Lowe, that unanimous Hall of Famer that we all love being there so much. Kagan did show up for the Oilers very briefly. Don't think there's been any overlap on Josh Manson. Nope. Just sort of, you can tell I'm like scrolling through Alphabet. You're scrolling through in real time. Father of son, cowboys. And this will be one of those things where, you know,

send us, don't send us guys from like the 30s. I don't want to hear about like the Patrick family or whatever. Patrick's, the Hextalls, the Connickers, whatever, Adams. The Hextall, you know, the Hextiles are out there. Oh, Alf Samuelson's kid played for the Penguins. Did not, did not know that. You know what really still throws me off to this day is

Alf and Shell Samuelson not being related. Yes. When I was a kid, I thought for sure they were. Yeah, they were brothers. Absolutely. Your brothers who played the same state? I'm like, yeah, this is. Yeah, there was no, there's no, and I think they did play on the same team at some point.

But, yeah, it was not the case. Oh, I guess the, the Stasnys, what's the? But Paul never played anywhere where Peter did it. Oh, yeah, the avalanche, I guess, apparently. The avalanche. The avalanche. Yeah, if you count the Nordic, yeah, absolutely. And I think, according to this, they all played for the blues.

Yes, that's right. Yeah. Peter Stasney, in fact, when you said Ken Hodg Jr., my mind immediately went to, you remember pro set hockey cards, early 90s? And I have this, I feel like Ken Hodg Jr. was like one of those prized guys in the order. But do you remember that Peter Stassany had, there was like an error card? Like they spelled his name wrong.

Love those. But I think he was with, he might have been. It was maybe it was with New Jersey at the time. But there was like a Peter Stassany error card on Pro set that was like the card to get. Pro set was just the shatiest. Riddled. Riddled with errors. They had like an intern doing the the spell set.

I think they did it on purpose. I remember having that and the baseball cards. Like there was a Don Russ set where it was like, oh, the line goes through. No, it wasn't Billy Ripkin. See, Billy Ripkin set the expectation. Wait, can I quote Billy Ripkin and then I can swear again? Oh, I mean, this is not too. Safe after next week.

We can't, we can't go over, but we're going to get, we're going to get slapped with the explicit warning on the podcast. No, I used to, that was the error card that, like, created error cards as a thing. And then it was like, yeah, Don Russ, like a line went over somebody's name instead of behind it. It was like, it's an error card. I was like, oh, man, and I've got it. It's right in my hand here. This is going to be worth some big money someday.

This is going to be something. I'll put it next to my 7,000. and Ken Griffey Jr. cards that are all carefully wrapped up. They're going to be worth so much. We all learn a valuable lesson about supply and demand in that generation. Oh, man. Anyway, so yeah, hit us up on Twitter. If you have any father-son combos that we missed. Or should I say, Sean, hit us up on threads. Have you joined threads? I've joined it. I'm not. I'm on that and blue sky and I haven't used any of them. I don't know what's going on.

I think I might just not post anymore. I haven't been funny since 2014, according to many of the people who reach out on Twitter. So it's, maybe this is just a time to, I don't feel like threading or bluing or whatever, whatever we're supposed to do. And yet, a week from now, I will, you know, I'll have posted 7,000 times. I'm still so mad about losing tweet deck. I've got, I literally on my- I know you were a big, you were a big tweet deck.

So here's where I met. I've got the tweet deck on two computers. I've got this computer I'm using right now, which is the word computer, and then I've got my real computer. I had tweet deck on both of them. And if people don't know, if you have tweet deck and it's open,

like Twitter ruined it, they changed it. But if you don't hit reload, you keep the old one for at least a little while. And I hit reload on my old computer. And as soon as I did it, I was like, no, what have I done? And like the stupid, ugly Twitter version came up. But on this one, I've still got the old one sitting there. I'm looking at it right now.

Oh, look at you back when Twitter was useful. Oh. It's very sad. But anyway, you can always reach us, even if we leave Twitter, we leave threads, whatever, blues. If we're not on any of those things, you can always reach us via email, The Athletic Hockey Show at gmail.com. And we even have a voicemail this week, Sean.

We have a voicemail that has come in to us and I'll just set this up because it's kind of trade related. It's one of those, you know, future, somebody gets trade for future considerations, right? So I apologize here because you know what, is there a, let's just bring Danielle into the show here, our producer. You know what? I apologize because I listened to this earlier today

and now I don't remember. Was there a name at the beginning of this, Daniel? It's Eric and Grand Rapids. Eric in Grand Rapids. So from Michigan, we go to Michigan. Here's the voicemail for us. Hey, I had a question about future considerations. I saw the wings picked up Koston and Yamamoto

from Emitting for future considerations. And I was wondering, whatever comes to that, do any trades that have future considerations actually end up getting something from them? Or how does that work? I love to hear your thoughts. All right. So it's the classic. Someone makes a trade for futures.

Like does anybody go back like three months later, three years later and say, hey, wait a minute. What were those future considerations? Wouldn't that be great if they did that? Just showed up. Be like, yeah, hey, we want. Remember Chicago? We made that. Yeah, we want Connor Bidar.

That's our future consideration. Yeah. The short answer here is no. Future considerations is a polite way of saying, traded for nothing. Now, why do they say future consider? Why don't they just say traded for nothing? It's a term that has a history in not just the NHL, but in sports. Yes.

Especially in baseball. I don't know if it's still the case, but in baseball for a while, there was a rule that you couldn't trade someone, I think, within a year of them being drafted. Yeah. And you also couldn't trade. draft picks as well. And so you would see teams would make trades where it was future considerations and the future considerations were I agree to give you Joe Smith, but I can't trade him for three more months. So that's what the future considerations would be. So that may be set the expectations if you're a baseball fan. Again, I don't know if they still do it this way, but for a while there,

your team would make a trade for future considerations. And then in a few months, you'd find out this prospect or that prospect were coming over. That's, that, that, that, that, It could also be the way that it works in the NHL. Yeah. Probably has in the past. You could also do it in sort of a conditional sense back in the old days where I could say, hey, I'll give you this guy. And if he plays X number of games, you'll give me this and that.

Now we just do that with conditional picks. So these days, no. These days, future considerations just means nothing. It's a salary dump. It's, you know, whatever it is. But I guess it's maybe a little more polite than just. saying a trade for nothing at all. Yeah.

All right. So Eric and Grand Rapids, hopefully that answer. If your team is collecting future considerations, don't, just wait one day they're going to cash them all in. A handful of magic beans. Let's see here.

Email, Jason writes in, again, the athletic hockey show at gmail.com. We're talking about the Kjucks earlier today. Jason says, Sean, you alluded to this on the pod.

Here's a question for you guys, given that Keith Kachuk is the father of Brady and Matthew, could they put him in the Hall of Fame as a builder? Yeah, well, hey, short answer, yes, they could because you can go in, anybody can go in as a builder. There are no criteria for that category other than that you are viewed as someone who made a contribution of the game. Now, that's it.

If we're doing it based on parenting, I feel like, as good as Brady and Matthew are, there's some others. I mean, starting with the Sutter parents. they got to go in first. Walter Gretzky, I feel like, would have to go in and then on down the line. So, yeah, I don't think that's going to do it for Keith. The other piece is because sometimes this comes up with guys like Keith Kuchuk, Rod Brindamore. He came up with Doug Wilson, where people would say, well, you know, the playing career is almost there for a Hall of Fame.

So shouldn't we factor in the coaching career or the GM career or whatever, you know, whatever it is? Can't we add some points from the builder category to the player side and that tip? And in theory, that's not how it works. In theory, player and builder are completely separate. They have nothing to do with each other. And you start all over again when you shift from one to the other. Now, realistically, these are 18 human beings sitting in a room. I'm sure it doesn't hurt Keith Kachuk that he's front and center with his family ties now.

It definitely doesn't hurt Rod Brindamore that he's arguing. the best coach in the entire league, but in theory it's separate. So no, this doesn't get him in as a builder probably, and it doesn't help his case as a player theoretically. I do think Keith Kachuk is getting in the Hall of Fame, though, at some point soon. At some point. I would throw a vote in there for Shantel Kachuk too. Sure.

Brady and Matthew. You think maybe she had something to do with it? Yeah, I think maybe we ought to give Shantle. Wouldn't that be great? We just start inducting parents into the Hall of Fame, but only the dads. Yeah. Way to go, Keith. Yeah. Anyone you want to thank Keith?

No, nobody comes to mine. Not really. Pretty much. I got it. I'd like to thank the Atlanta Thrashers. It was like, what? Did he go? He was there at the time that they got swept, right? In the playoffs?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, he was a very, very strange, because he went over there in a deal that included a first round pick. Yes. And then he was not a UFA at the end of the year and then got flipped back. and for the same pick. And I think it was a high pick.

I think it might even end up being... It was a first round pick, wasn't it? It might have been the Zach Bogosian pick now that I think about it. But it was one of these little, like, and I don't know if it was a, like, hey, wink, wink, we're going to flip this guy back or if the two teams just decide it, like, you know what, let's, hey, if he was worth this pick three months ago, let's do it now. But yeah, he was there. He was there for every game.

Yes. In Atlanta Thrashers and scored the game-winning goal in over. overtime for every Atlanta thrashers win in their entire playoff history. That's right. As did you and as did I. Yeah. Yeah. One more email here from Nick who says,

Sabers beat writer Matthew Fairburn wrote an article last month during the NHL draft combine saying the perception of Buffalo, it's starting to change a little bit, mentioning that Buffalo might even be coming off of no trade lists. Do you guys think that that perception is changing? This is about as national of a perspective as I can ask for. Thanks a lot. Your shows are fantastic. That comes in from Nick. What do we think about Buffalo maybe getting off of... National perspective of two dudes in Ottawa. I do think, yes, I think the perception of Buffalo is changing in the sense that you don't have to go back too many years where Buffalo was the train wreck franchise. of the NHL. This was the T.E.

You wanted nothing to do with these guys. They were a mess on the roster. They were a mess front office. They were a mess at the ownership level. And you just absolutely wanted nothing to do. I mean, if you had a one team no trade list, that was probably the team that was on it. I do think that perception has changed. I think there is a view now that Buffalo is an upcoming team.

I think for all the skepticism that there was around Kevin Adams, when that hiring happened, a lot of people are looking at him now going, this guy's got a plan. This guy knows what he's doing. The coaching situation is better. And I think even ownership. And maybe not because of anything that's happened with the Sabres, but when you look at what's going on with the Buffalo Bills,

some people are now saying, okay, you know what? The Pagoolas maybe aren't completely out to lunch like we may have thought they were. So I think, yes, there probably are some cases. is now where players are looking at that situation going, this is a team on the way up. I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't mind going there. You know, it's a great market, great fans, all that sort of thing. Now, you're still Buffalo. So the weather isn't great. It's not exactly the world's biggest city. It's not everyone wants to go to a hockey market like Buffalo where you're

going to get all sorts of attention. So I don't think, I don't think players are lining up to go quite yet. But yes, I would say the perception has definitely changed to the point where it's no longer this case of, hey, whatever you do, make sure it's not Buffalo. They've moved up that list somewhere into the middle of the pack, would be my guess. Yeah. Two thoughts on this. First is, you know, if you talk to players and executives and people that lived in Buffalo, they love that city. Like, there's a street. And I want to say it's in Amherst, which is like kind of a really nice suburb in Buffalo. Because I remember, because I went to John Muckler's house years ago to do a story there.

And I remember going to John's house. And he was like, well, Scotty Bowman lives, you know, right there. And I think Harry Neal lived like, like people love Buffalo. And even like you talk to Marty B. Ron. Like, again, guy that played kind of in a couple of places in the NHL. And he chose Buffalo to live. Like people love Buffalo. It gets a bad reputation.

It's a really, it is. It's a really nice city. It's got some wonderful suburbs. And so, yeah, I think there's absolutely an element of if the team, like you were saying, if the team is playing better, then a lot of those things start to melt away a little bit, right? Like it's not as inhospitable or all those things. So that's true. Meaning fixes so much.

Yeah. The other story I want to talk real quick. Did you ever hear the Marshawn Lynch Buffalo story? No, I don't think so. So this is a classic. So Marshawn Lynch gets drafted by the Buffalo Bills. Okay. And Marshaun Lynch is like a, he's an Oakland guy, right?

Like he's from the West Coast. He doesn't know anything. But he heard he was drafted by Buffalo. He's like, oh, Buffalo, New York. This is awesome. He gets on a plane. He lands in Buffalo. And as the story goes, he's looking out, he's like, what the hell is this?

He thought Buffalo, New York was New York City. Oh, no. Look it up. I'm like, I'm pretty sure there's a great story of Marshawn Lynch. He's drafted by the bills. 99% of athletes, I'd be like, I don't believe that story. Marshaun Lynch, I'm like, that sounds about right. 100%.

He thought Buffalo, New York was New York City and was like, what is this? Where's the sky? Where's the, you know, where's the Empire State Building? Like, nope. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, boy. Yeah.

All right. Let's wrap up the pod like we always do. With a little this week in hockey history. We're into kind of early to mid-July here. So a lot of these are, when I look these up, it's like, on this date, Brad Park was born. I'm like, we can't, we can't do anything with that. But we can do something. There's two things here.

July 7, 1989. The New Jersey Devils. unveiled two splashy Soviet signings. They ink Vyatislav Fettisov and Sergei Starikov at a news conference. These two players are allowed to legally leave what is still at that point the Soviet Union because the wall would come down a couple of months later. But they're allowed to defect in sign in the NHL. There's a great picture of a young Lou Lamarillo,

kind of arm in arm with these two guys. That was really a really big moment in hockey history, wasn't it? When the devil signed these two Russian guys, Fedazov and Starikov. Yes, and this comes on the heels of the Alexander McGilny story, where he defects, and you get the whole cloak and dagger, spy chase sort of deal. But the Soviet leaders, seeing that, sort of realize the writing is on the wall, and they start granting, initially it's the veteran players, get the permission to come over.

But pretty soon the floodgates open and it ends up being, it ends up being all of the, all of the, the star players can come over, including, I guess, Starakov, which kind of fake name does that sound like. Exactly. This guy's got to be good. Yeah. How can Starikov not be fantastic? We're going to pass on Bustakov.

Bustikov, I don't think he's good. But Starracov, we're all over him. I'm now checking, did Starkov ever play? He did. He played 16 games for the New Jersey Devils that year. He's 31 years old already, had one assist. It's so weird. Like, I have no recollection of him.

But again, we were pretty young at the time. You know what's pretty crazy is he played, I'm looking at his hockey reference page, because I have, like you, I have no, no memory of them. Played the 16 games for the Devils, also played for their HL team that year, played for their HL team the next year, and then spent two years playing for the San Diego gulls of the IHL before hanging up his skates at the age of 34. So he, you know, this wasn't a case where he just came in, played a few games in Jersey,

didn't work out and went back home. He hit up San Diego for a couple years in the IHL. I'm going to need you to look this up, like, as would. So the only thing I know about the early 90s, didn't Ron Dugay come back and like kind of play with them? Wow. So here's my question. Was Ron Dugay, a teammate of Sergei Starikov in San Diego?

I'm looking it up right now because that's a great pull. Man, the IHL back then was like the cool minor leagues. Yes. And it, yeah, he played for the San Diego Gulls. 91.92. Now, was that? I feel like there was maybe a year of overlap. There was 91.92. You could have gone to see the San Diego gulls. Ron Dugay and Sergei Starikov. All right. Now I got to look up the rest of this team because that's, there's no way that they, they were stopping there. That was, you know what, that's not a bad place to finish things off. Like, would you, would you be in, like, as I think about like,

off-season fun, colorful features to, to write, would you be down with a colorful history of the early 90s IHL? Maybe. Or no, like that's just too weird. Quite possibly. Hey, you know who else was on this team? A 19-year-old Ray Whitney. Ray Whitney played in the IHL?

A 19-year-old Ray Whitney, yeah, apparently. What a strange collection. Imagine. Ron Dugay, imagine, it sounds like the start of a joke. Ron Dugay,

Ray Whitney and Sergey Starakov walk into, their leading score was Dmitri Vartlanov. So another Soviet player had 118 points.

And then this was the guy if the name sounds familiar, he goes to, he goes to the Bruins, the next year, plays his one and only full NHL season, scores 30 goals

and has basically a point of game. And then that's it. You know who else was on this? Okay, I'm going to throw a few other names at you. A young Denny Lambert, that's one that you'll remember if you're a senator's fan. Randy Hillier, Rick Kinneckel played a goalie. Was the goalie on that team? Jeez.

Charlie Simmer played one game at the age of 37. You know what? We forget the IHL. I think a deep dive on the 1991-2 San Diego Gals is all we need. Two other goaltenders who played for that team, Greg Millen and Sean Burke. Now, I know Sean Burke, this was back when he was going through all sorts of contract problems. Remember he played for the Canadian Olympic team at one point? And then here's, I skipped over a name because here's the biggest name of all on this team.

Gretzky. Keith Gretzky. Keith Gretzky. Keith Gretzky. had 12 goals and 31 points in 62 games for the San Diego goal. Man, wow. That's, man, that's a team. That's an absolute.

You know what? I think a checking it on the 91. Like, there's got to be some phenomenal stories from these guys, right? You would think. You would absolutely think. Good, Lord. Yeah, there we go. All right.

What a team? The other one real quick. July 8th, 1995, Brian Barrett is taken as the number one overall pick. Of course, Barard says, I'm not going to Ottawa. They end up flipping him out for the number two overall pick in Wade Redden. Now, correct me if I'm wrong. And in that window, there was like, you know, Lemieux said in 84, I'm not going to Pittsburgh. He did go.

Lindrosh said in 91, I'm not going to Quebec. Barard says I'm not going to Ottawa. Is Brian Barard the last guy in the NHL to be taking first overall and say I'm not going? Yeah, I feel like he would have to be. And it's interesting because I bet you if you ask most hockey fans, who is the last guy? They would say Eric Lindrosse.

But the fact that it did play out again a few years later and not quite as nasty in public, but yeah. And now, and he said, that going in, right? He said, I'm not playing for the Ottawa senators. He was an American star. Like, why did they draft? He didn't want to go to this little Canadian team that was, at the time, was just a joke. I mean, couldn't get out of their own way. So he, he says, no, I'm not going. And it works out okay for Ottawa because they eventually do apparently the obvious. And they flip them to the islanders for Wade Redden, who had been the number two pick. So that all works out fine. But, yeah, that's, I mean, it's, I do, I wonder what would happen these days. I mean, I, it's hard to imagine situations where a player would say, no, I'm not going to a team.

But even if they did, would that team just draft him? Wouldn't you trade the pick? Wouldn't you just take the next guy on the list? Whatever. Like to say, like, we're going to draft a guy who says he's not going to play here. And then just let him sit at home or, you know, let him go back to. college or whatever it is and figure it out.

That is, that's a bit of a tough one. But it's, I can't imagine we'll see it again, but you never know. Perfect way to bookend the podcast, open and close with Ottawa being stuck with someone who doesn't want to be there. There you go. Yeah, clearly, yeah, that would never happen again.

You'd never have Ottawa. You'll never see this happen ever again. Alexei Ashton and Danny Heatley are putting up their hands. Don't forget about us. Go down the list, man. Oh, man. Man. Anyway, all right, we'll leave it there.

And listen, we'd love to hear from you, especially in the summertime. We love to kind of, we want to try to keep it super casual. So, you know, if there's some fun questions, rabbit holes you want us to go down, questions you want to answer, things you're afraid to ask and whatever. This is the time to do it. We love to record in the summer and just kind of try to have a little bit of fun as the new cycle kind of slows down. So if you got any questions, whatever, email us, the athletic hockey. show at gmail.com leave us a voicemail anytime like eric from grand rapids did there 845 445 845 845 8459 right now one year subscription to the athletic it's just two dollars a month for 12 months when you visit the athletic.com slash