The Athletic Hockey Show - Don Granato feels the heat in Buffalo, Dylan Larkin calls out player safety and could Phil Kessel be a fit with Blackhawks?

Episode Date: December 21, 2023

Ian Mendes and Mark Lazerus discuss tough times in Buffalo as the Sabres players backed their coach Don Granato after Sabres fans started chanting for Granato to be fired. The Jacques Martin era in Ottawa, version 2.0, failed to get off on the right foot vs Arizona, with their second game coming tonight vs the Colorado Avalanche who were called out for their poor play by defender Devon Toews in the last game vs the Black Hawks. Plus the guys wonder if Chicago could be a fit for free agent Phil Kessel and if injured forward Nolan Patrick will ever play another game in the NHL? Down Goes Brown joins the show to discuss Dylan Larkin's tough, fair comments on the NHL and Player Safety and Eric Duhatschek stopped by to talk about Craig Conroy's plan in Calgary, and 51 year old Jaromir Jagr who laced up the skates for his hometown team in Kladno, which will once again delay his Hall of Fame induction by another three years.Subscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowGift a 1-year subscription to The Athletic for $19.99 or a 2-year subscription for $39.99 when you visit theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. All right, here we go. Welcome to a Thursday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. Get out of here, Haley. Max, Sean Gentile, it's the real Thursday show. The way it was meant to be constructed. With Ian Mendezson, Mark Lazarus. I think I'm never supposed to be here.

If I'm here, someone's either busy with real work or something important, happen because I'm just like the guy you call when you need like, oh crap, we get, we get Lysmira's. Yeah, the ebug of, exactly. That's, that's what it is. But no, we're, we're happy to be here because we're leading into the holiday season. There's a ton to get to on this, on this Thursday, where the news cycle's been going. And I know last, actually earlier this week, right, you sat in on, on the pod, whatever, and I was in transit, because all of a sudden, I had to get myself to Arizona. So, how, how'd that go? How was, how was your, out your day at Pearson. Oh, man. I got stuck on the way there and back, three hours each way

on what should have been nice, quick connections. There's no such thing as a nice quick connection at Pearson. Yeah. Pearson is like, that's like my personal hell. Like, I will go out of my way to avoid having to connect through Pearson if I can. You know, and I think what I've learned is that listeners to podcasts, they love nothing more than reporter travel stories. They're like, there's some good ones out there. We're at the anniversary of what the time. time I got stuck at O'Hare overnight trying to get to Arizona. And me, Chris Cook of the Tribune and Tracy Myers at CSN Chicago spent, we were on three different flights all racing each other to get there.

And Tracy didn't make it. And Cook and I had a flight of Tucson and rent a car. It was good times. Oh, man. Did you guys go full Tom Hanks, like in the terminal, like overnight? Like, you're stuck in the terminal? We made it until about like, I think two or in the morning. And then I just screwed.

I went and got an hotel. Oh, man. No. Oh, no. We won't. We won't turn this into a. a travel story, but we will turn this into a bit of a time travel story because I got to tell you, Las, like being in Arizona and looking at the Ottawa bench and seeing Jacques Martin, it was like,

mind-blowing to me because this is when I first started, I first broke into this industry in the early 2000s. I was, I actually worked in the media relations department under Jacques Martin. Is that right? If you could, yeah, if you can imagine that's how far back my relationship, goes with him 20-ish years, and then I switch into being a reporter and I covered him. So to see him behind the bench, like, I was thinking like, this would almost be like, and we'll have a nice segue to this in a few minutes, but like, this would be like if the Sabres went back at some point, they're like, you know what, Lindy Rough is our coach again. Like, that's really the only comparable I could think.

It is truly wild to see somebody back there. But I'm curious in your estimation, like, when you think about, whether it's players, athletes, coaches, whatever, going back for a second term, somewhere, anywhere. Can you think of something off the top of your head where you're like, that guy came back and it was good or as good as the first time? Like, think of, I always think of Messier to the Rangers.

They brought them back, everybody, and it, you know. When Patrick Kane's a Black Hawk again in five years to have his last season, maybe, I don't know. Yeah. Didn't Al Arbor do that on Long Island where he retired and then came back and they, and they went on that playoff on an 93. Wasn't that his second go-around? Yeah. My memory's a little fuzzy on that, but yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then Arbor actually came back to coach one ceremonial. That's right. That's right. It gets a, what was it, 1500, right? Yeah. So he got a third go around. I mean, this is hockey. This is the, this is the NHL. This is the retread league, right? This is what we do. Yeah. We don't come up with new creative ideas. we go back to ones that worked 20 years ago.

Look at everyone the Edmonton Oilers have ever hired in any job ever. They all played for the 1980s Oilers. You go back to what you know because that's what hockey does. Man, it's wild. And I was looking this up to because I saw that it was a great stat. So Jacques Martin coached his first game in the NHLaz in 1986. Jeez. Okay.

And so now it's a 37 years span between when he coached his first game and his most recent game, which is the longest span in the history of the NHL. Now, I know, like we talked about this, Arbor came back, but it was like a ceremonial game. So that doesn't really count.

Like that was like a, almost like a PR stunt. But I went back. Les, I looked at the box score of Jacques Martin's first game as a head coach. He coached against Marcel D.Hon. Think about that.

A guy in the NHL, this week is coaching, and he coached against Marcel Dion and Tiger Williams in his first game. I remember, like, just like a couple years ago, like the grandson of like Zachary Taylor, the president from like the Civil War era of the United States. It was only his grandson because he had kids so late in life and everyone lived so long. You shouldn't be, you shouldn't, there shouldn't be connections to Marcel Dion in the modern NHL. I'm sorry, I have concerns about this hiring. I mean, maybe I'll be proven wrong and I don't want to become across as an agist here.

But Jack Martin hasn't coached in the NHL in 11, 12 years, something like that. The game changed dramatically in that time. Can Jack Martin, a coach who is very defensive-minded, can he succeed in the modern-day, speed-oriented, skill-based NHL? Can that translate? Is this just a stopgap, or is he really going to coach this team the rest of the year? You know, I think it's stopgap is the right phrase, because I don't think he's in this for the long haul.

I think he's just, hey. Alpertson thing, are we just getting to the inevitable, like Marty San Luis? in Montreal. You know, last, every conversation I've ever had with Alfredson about what his role is, he was always scared off by, and this is what coaching has become, as you know, it

becomes a 19 or 20 hour a day job. Oh, it's an awful job. You know, it is. It's mentally and physically taxing. You can't escape it. You have to be back in your office. You know, if you get in at 5.30, that's a little late in the morning. Like, you know, like, how many staff

they have the jug who's putting the coffee on and who like you know so i don't think he wants that i don't think he wants to grind but you know what i think is interesting like like when they practice this week in arizona jacques martin the first practice jacques didn't even go on the ice and it was alpherson and last i don't think he had his skates on the trip like jacquartan so they're practicing in denver as we're recording this i don't even know if he'll be on the ice because i don't think he brought his skates on the trip i don't think he was thinking oh i'll take over at some point So it's interesting, but he is, Is there not a dick sporting goods anywhere in the state of Arizona?

I mean, someone could have gotten them skates. If you really wanted skates, someone could have gotten them skates, I think. God, wouldn't you, I'd love, I would have loved to have done a feature on, hey, do you guys mind if I tag along to Dick sporting goods as he picks up a pair of skates? That'd be amazing. He's trying them on. He's like, man, these are not custom fit at all. This off the last stuff.

Welcome to the rest of our lives. Oh, man. So, look, so the coaching changes happened in Ottawa. and I think there's a great parallel between the senators and the Buffalo Sabres in so many ways. Good young core, restless fan base. In Buffalo's case, they deserve a little bit extra.

I think kudos that fan base because now it's 12 years since they made the playoffs. And now you're starting to hear the rumblings of the fans and Don Granato's got to go. And, you know, when he first came in, it was, hey, it's Donnie meatballs. And everyone loves him

and he's this upbeat guy, here we go. And boy, I don't know. The Sabers players are back in their coach like you would expect them to do. But is that like we all season last, there's different pressure points, right? And places it. It boiled over in Edmonton.

It boiled over in Minnesota. It boiled over in St. Louis. It boiled over in Ottawa. Is Buffalo the next place? That is going to boil over. I think the biggest problem if you're Donnie Granado right now is how well it's working everywhere else. Ottawa, you know, so far excluded is everybody's getting that new coach bump, right? It's fixing things.

You know, you're getting temporary bumps in, in Minnesota and even St. Louis and, you know, Edmonton, obviously, it was a perfect example. I think a lot of GMs and ownerships, they think of coaches as relatively disposable. They're like running backs. They're like backup goalies. They're just, you can kind of shuttle them in and out. So unless you have any elite top tier, you know, John Cooper type coach, it's easy to move on from them when things are going bad. And Don Granato is really well liked by that team. Everybody likes Don Granato. He's one of the nice guys in the league and everybody enjoys playing for him and

working with him and being around him. But the Sabre are disappointing. Like you said, we talked about this on the show last time where, you know, everyone said the Sabres, the Senators and the Red Wings were all going to make the playoffs. And that's just was never realistic. But what's happening is worse than, you know, just being mediocre. They're being bad again in a lot of ways. And it's tough because Don Granato is not making a ton of money.

They can easily swallow that contract for another couple of years by firing him. And it feels inevitable. It feels unfortunate, but it just really feels inevitable that no matter how much the players say we support our coach, if they're not going to say that. The results aren't there. And this was supposed to be a year that the Sabres took a leap. And we've been saying that for it feels like millennia. And it's not happening.

And if it doesn't happen when you have a lot of talent now, it becomes an issue. and the coach is usually the first one to pay for it. Yeah, it's interesting because I think the Sabres have tried everything, right? They've tried different coaches. They've tried different rosters. And they didn't. It's interesting, too, like, in Colorado, you wouldn't think Colorado's a pressure point where it's going to build over.

But I got to tell you, those comments from Devon Taves this week where, and it was against Chicago, right? Like, so, you know, it was a, you lose to Chicago. You have a come to Jesus meeting. It never failed. Yeah. Yeah, it's mandatory. If you lose to Chicago, Columbus or San Jose, it's mandatory.

A, it's a team meeting and then someone's got to pop off in the media. But Tave says, quote, I think we got some guys who think they're playing well. And I think they're kidding themselves at this point. Like I, you know what I love? There's nothing I love more, Las, than sort of peer to peer comments like this. like peer-to-peer accountability. And I like that. Like if you're TAVs and you feel empowered to say that,

only certain guys can stand up and say that, but I love that. I love what he said this week. And good for TAVs for being willing to say that on a team full of stars that are way bigger than him, right? Like, he's a good player on a great team, but he's not one of the big guys on that team. There's four or five megastars on that team.

And he's out there saying, so good for him. That said, you have a Lentcher fine. I covered those great Chicago teams where they would like manufacture their own drama during the regular season because they get bored, they get complacent. No player wants to admit this. But when you're playing on like a Tuesday night or whatever it was in Chicago in mid, late December just before the holiday break, you kind of just mail it in sometimes because the avalanche are in no danger of missing the playoffs.

They're going to coast. They don't care what seed they are. If they're the one seat or the seven seed, they're just like those Chicago teams. They can win from anywhere, and they know it. So it's really hard to get too amped up for every single game in the regular season. And no players allowed to admit this. They admit it after they retire. I remember Patrick Sharp telling me about it, saying like, oh, my God, we're in Carolina on a

Wednesday night again. What the hell are we doing here? And you just kind of go on autopilot. And that's what the avalanche are doing right now. They're going to be fine. When the games matter, a team that good. And when they're healthy again, they'll be just fine. And Taves calls them out.

and I pity their next opponent. Check schedule. It's the Ottawa senators. Good luck. Good luck. So the team callout versus the new coach bump. It's like the immovable object

and the irresistible force. Oh man, it's like Bo Jackson against Brian Foswood. Something's got to give. Something's got to give. You know who loves 80s football references? It's our next guest. down goes brown because you know what this guy's like wait a minute

Bo Jackson and Brian Bosworth that's right up my alley yeah I'm right there I had the poster of the Bosworth poster I had the Bosworth poster and the oh I had all like I had all of them but was okay was Bosworth the one with like the laser like Terminator thing or was that okay yeah I think it was I'm saying it past tense as if they're not still like upstairs in a closet somewhere I used to have those posters. You know what? Didn't somebody write a column for the Atlantic? At some point in the last year,

somebody, an amazing on the glory days of the 80s and 90s, those posters? Yeah. Like, I don't know where those went. Like, that is something, I don't understand why this generation doesn't have them. I had the John Stark's dunk over the Bulls,

over Jordan. I think it was Cartwright, maybe. Yeah. That was mine. You had, like, I had guys that I wasn't even, like, a fan of, but you would just get the poster. because it was cool or someone gave it to you and you're like, oh, I guess I got a Michael Jordan poster hanging in my room now.

What's this guy all about? And then, you know, he became a fan of him. And I guess, I mean, if they just, maybe if we made, turn them into cartoons of like bored animals, then people would, people did get into them again. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, I had a Patrick Waugh posture in my room.

I grew up by Habs fan. And it said, it was Patrick Inquiat and the, the R.O. why of Inquayab was kind of pulled out because of Patrick Gua and it was like the coolest thing but you're right I don't know what happened I had my equivalent of that was Wendell Clark and it was Captain Crunch

Beautiful But do you remember even there was like a time where like teams would like have an entire team photo like we're going to go with Western motif Pat's garage dressed up I had that one too I think that one was framed I dude I

It was fantastic back then teams would do, they would do these themed photo shoots. The Leafs did it in the Pat Burns era years in a row. Doug Gilmore, like I'm looking cool with a leather jacket on the motorcycle and everything. And occasionally, if you were really lucky and, you know, Las being a Chicago guy now, you know all about this. They'd all get together and they'd shoot a music video. Oh, yeah.

Where they would either lip sync or sing. I still play Let's Go Metsgo from the 86 season just to annoy my kids. like at least once a week. And it was Neil Sheehe was the guy who brought that to the NHL with the flames first. And then over to when they sent him to Washington, he had like Rod Langway and like, well, this is, this is what happened. A young Scott Stevens playing saxophone. Like, what are we doing here? These guys are so image conscious now. They're so afraid of looking silly that they don't do anything fun. Did you see the, uh, the Los Angeles Chargers kicker video that one out of the sicker the kicker? And it's like a, it's like a law firm video trying to get you

to vote for it from the pro ball. Nobody does that. It was hilarious. It was great. I love. It showed personality and nobody wants to do that anymore because God forbid you make yourself look silly. And that's the problem because these things looked ridiculous back in the days. They looked. I mean, you watch them now and you're like, part of you was like, okay, does this just look bad because it's 30 years later? And then no, like even at the time, you'd be watching. I try to picture the makeup sessions for some of those photo shoots, you know. Or like the choreography where they're like, okay, we're all going to tilt our saxophone.

Like none of you are playing. You don't even have the thing near your mouth, but we're all going to tilt at the same time. They do it ironically. Like back then it was kind of ironic. Because every time I, you know, when I bring this up, someone's always like, well, remember the avalanche did that like imagine dragons. Oh God, that was bad. They were trying to like, you know, make fun.

Gabe Landiscox staring hard into the bathroom. Yeah. Because it was fun because you could guess like, okay, who on the roster is going to be a little too into this? Who on the roster is going to completely no sell it, right? And like who's going to be in between? Like there's always like a couple of guys like the backup goalie would be like way too into singing and you're like, yeah, dude, you all have the same voice.

Like, you're, you're clearly not singing. We know what's happening here, but it was fantastic. Have you seen the, the team Sweden video for, I think it was for the Sochi Olympics? They did, they had this, it's basically like the, the Swedish motley crew. I think they're called the Poodles. And it's good. It's N for A la Feren, which was their goal song. And they did the 1980s thing where they brought all the players in to sing the chorus at the

end. It's, first of all, the song rules. Like, it's like a legitimately great, like 80s. rock song. And the video is hilarious because you got like Henrik Lundfuss and you got like, you know, all these guys out there. You got to go. It's one of my favorite videos. Okay. I'm going to look that up because I tell you, man, between the post, like, look what they did. Look what they took from us. Like, look at a mess again. You have no idea. Do you guys ever see this? And we'll get, trust me, we'll get on to the actual fun. Will we? Will we? Not necessary.

No, not necessarily. Do you guys ever see it's from the 80s, the Buffalo Sabers anti-drug song? the rap song and it's like Tom Barrasso and Housley and Henry Chon. My name's Tom Barrasso and I'm here to say. Yeah. Well, we can all think of something that rind with Barrasso that worked pretty well for that guy. But they did. There was a guy.

There's one where at least one where the guy's playing the piano and he's like a local Buffalo like celebrity comic musician like, you know, which is a thing back then who ended up, don't Google how things ended up for that guy because it didn't, you know, It's going to diminish the message. But yeah, the Buffalo Sabres were here to tell you not to do drugs. And I think it was a couple of times. I think they did it two years in a row. So if you've ever wanted to see like Dave Anderchuk sit you down for like a real like chat about the.

I think the Simpsons destroyed this with the Timmy O'Toole that we're sending our love down the well video. Probably. They killed fun videos. They may have. But I'll tell you between the Buffalo Sabers and saved by the bell. I wasn't going near any drugs for for a long time. You were excited, but you were so scared. I was too excited for the Savers video is what happened.

Was it Johnny Dakota telling you to say no to dope? Okay. See, I tell you, we would get back on track. All right. Look, you love 80s nostalgia, 90s nostalgia. All three of us do. But I know, Sean, you also love talking about the NHL and the way they handle discipline. And Dylan Larkin, who was the victim of, look, it was a tough play with Matthew Joseph.

And I understand the debate around it. And I totally get it. So I understand Dylan Larkin's frustration when you've had a history of neck and head injuries and all that stuff. And he kind of went off on the league this week kind of saying, look, it's hard to feel safe the way that this league hands out discipline. Should they, should they, Department of Player Safety, Sean, take those words from Dylan Larkin to heart? Or do you think they'll just be like, ah, whatever, we're just going to spin that wheel? I mean, I think at this point, this is well-trod ground, right?

I think most of us feel like we would like to see the suspensions be stiffer. We would like to see, you know, potentially suspensions for more things. We would all love to see the fines actually matter as opposed to the, you know, the maximum amount in CBA, which is nothing for these guys. And yeah, I didn't like that Dylan Larkin play. I really didn't. And especially, remember, he's got not just a history of this injury. He's got a history with the same player, with Matthew Joseph. you know, having had that injury before.

So I get where he's coming from. The problem is always with this discussion is everybody wants them to be stricter and tougher until it's their team. And then suddenly when it's their team, it's, oh, wait a second. I mean, come on. This guy, he's a good guy. And this is the perfect example because you got Dylan Larkin sitting there saying, hey, you know, I have a history of his injuries.

I got a history with this guy. I get, you know, it's not a hockey play, whatever you thought it was, a punt. or, you know, a stick, whatever. It's not a hockey play to come up high and hit me in the head and you should be responsible for what happens. And maybe you didn't know that another guy was coming in when I was going to get, you know, sandwich to hit like that. But you're targeting my head in the run of play and it results in an injury.

And yeah, you know, there should be stiffer discipline. Great. I'm sure every Red Wings fan agrees with him. But then five seconds later, David Perron comes over and blatantly cross-checked a guy in the head, blatant attempt for injury. He does get the big suspension. And how many Red Wing fans are saying, well, wait a second, you can't knock David Perron, right? And you got Alan Walsh on Twitter.

Oh, he's a good guy. He's never been suspended before. Pick a lane. You know, it's got to be one or the other. Yes, Dylan Larkin wants to argue. And I'm not suggesting Dylan Larkin should argue against his own teammate, you know, stand up. And, you know, we don't expect him to do that. But if you're a wings fan and you're saying they've got to, they've got to bear down on player safety and they've got to be stricter, great.

David Paran is a double-digit suspension now. if we're going by that criteria. So you've got to pick boat. It can't just be everybody else, and especially if it happens to my team, make it stricter. But when my team's on the other side of it, well, then it's,

you know, let's not go overboard. Let the boys play hockey, you know, old time hockey and all of that nonsense. Yeah, I want to see this stuff out of the league completely, and I want to see the suspension to be bigger. But the problem is you're running into this inertia and nostalgia of the league. I mean, look, Kevin Kerr has had a great story today on the athletic about, you know,

comments last month at this, the no hit league guy now, and guys don't know how to get hit. And as a result, they're getting injured. He's basically blaming the players for getting hurt in some ways. And it was a really nuanced story that Kevin did a really good job with. But the problem is so many people in the league are like, I want more hits. I want this is part of the game. And it runs counter to the also we need to protect our star players. I'm much more concerned with protecting the star players than seeing it. I like seeing a good, clean hit in the league. But if I can see fewer headshots, and it means I see fewer big hits, then I'm okay with that. That's a tradeoff I'm willing to make. I want to see Dylan

Larkin on the ice. I want to see him play hockey more than I want to see anybody go and take a run at someone, more than I want to see guys getting cross-checking the back of the head in the crease just because it's always been allowed. More than I want to see David Perron retaliate for a hit like that. I don't want to see any of that stuff. I'm going to watch hockey. And the problem is this league doesn't care. The league wants it to be like it was in the 70s. Well, the league, I think the league is, you know, and I'm the last person to defend the league, but I'll kind of go halfway to Well, not the league, the people in the league, I'm saying. I think Gary Petton wants this stuff out of the game.

But your John Tortorellas don't. I think they're caught in between because, you know, this is very similar to the debate over fighting, right? Where we saw, you know, fighting for years, we would argue it back and forth. And then it just kind of naturally on its own started to diminish to the point where it's at, you know, very close to an all-time low right now. It's not really part of the game anymore. Certainly not like it used to be. And great. That's better for player safety.

We know too much about concussions and the injuries and the long-term effects of this stuff. So I'm all on board with that. But at the same time, the NHL minus fighting for a lot of fans is a less entertaining league. Just like the NHL without the big hits is a less entertaining league. Like when I was growing up with hockey, you went to a hockey game or you sat down to watch when there were four things you were looking for. You want to see goals. You wanted to see big exciting saves. You want to see big hits and you want to see fights.

And the fights are almost gone and the big hits are almost gone. And the big exciting saves were almost gone because these goalies are all giants now. And they just flop down and let the puck hit him in the chest. And the goals have dropped. So, you know, if I'm the NHL and I'm always the one saying whenever the NHL has to make a decision, I'm going, guys, you're an entertainment product. Don't forget the entertainment for a lot of fan. And absolutely, Mark, there's a lot of fans out there like you too who say this,

seeing this stuff takes away my entertainment. Obviously, no one wants to see guys get hurt. There's a lot of fans that would say, you've taken away the fighting, you take away the hitting. There's not enough there that it's still fun. And I guess the last thing I'd say on that, we started with the 80s and 90s and the soldier. Go back and watch hockey in the 80s and 90s. You can argue there's too much of this crap today. And I'll be right there with you.

Don't ever say that the league hasn't greatly diminished this stuff or that the game doesn't have a lot of it. whoever you want to give the credit to, there is stuff now that we debate for a week, whether this was a clean or dirty hit, that was not even noticed in the 1980s or 90s. It wouldn't even have made the highlights, but the hit now happens and we talk about it and we argue about it. I saw it today,

I saw it back and forth where somebody was getting mad on Twitter saying, it's so ridiculous to say the league has taken a lot of the dirty crap out. Go back and watch what it was 23 years ago. And yeah, that's a low bar. Well, yeah, watch Billy Smith. or Ron Hextall in the crease just whacking at guy's ankles. I'm not trying to be a wise ass here. Go watch a rivalry game in 1989.

You will see more violence and dirty hits and fights and everything. Then you will see an entire week of a full NHL schedule today. I think that's the evolution of the players as the evolution of the game, though, right? Yep. It's a little bit of everything. And some of it is rule changes. And some of it's how they officiate. And obviously not all of it.

That's how it was with fighting. Right. We used to always debate, do they need, to, do they need to pass a rule to get rid of fighting? Do they need a rule? Because that's the only way it's ever going to change is if they, you know, Gary Bettman has or whoever it is has to make a rule. And they never made a rule.

But it kind of on its own diminished. Same thing's happening with hitting. But I get where from an NHL standpoint, hey man, when you watch a commercial for an NHL game or a video game or anything with the NHL, they're not showing poke checks. They're not showing shot blocking.

They're showing big hits and violence. And that's part of the selling point of the game. And if it all goes away, and maybe it should, but what are you left with? How do you still market this game? I feel like that's a false equivalency, though, right? Because you can eliminate getting cross-checked in the back in the crease and still have open ice hits, still have guys getting smeared along the boards in a non-boarding fashion. Like, there's, there's, it's a sliding scale, but there are clear delineations between the kind of stuff that nobody's,

nobody's excited about seeing what happens in the net front. That's not a fun, exciting play. That's not Jacob Pruva destroying a human being. I am with you on that, but I do think we... That's what happened to Dylan Larkin. It was a seemingly innocuous, standard, a thousand times a night, cross-checked to the back of the head. It just happened to knock him out cold where we thought he had died on the ice.

Yep, absolutely. But at the same time, what I'll push back for you is this idea that, you know, I still love a big open ice hit. Do you? What if the guy gets knocked out? What if the guy gets a separated shoulder or, you know, breaks a collarbone on that big hit? Do we still like it then?

and we've seen, right, we've seen big hits where we're sitting there going frame by frame. Okay, was this a big clean hit or was this a dirty hit that needs to be a 10 game suspension? It's, you know, it's very easy to say, you know, take all this stuff out, but I still love the big clean hits. John Tortura, as much as I hate to say it, I see where he's coming from on this idea that if you take all the other stuff out, suddenly these guys maybe aren't ready for that big open ice hit. Yeah, it's like Gigatruba being 6'8, like, When he delivers a clean hit, it's a headshot to most guys, right? Yep.

Yeah, but listen, I remember when I worked at SportsNet, and we were a national broadcaster, we had games. And so before the season, they actually brought all of us to Toronto. This would have been around 2012. And they brought Brendan Shanahan in to speak with us about this exact topic about what's a clean play, what's a clean hit, what's a dirty hit, how do we do suspensions? And you guys remember this? Shanahan came in and he was like,

you're getting 20 games, you're getting 20 games, and we're going to curb this thing. What happened? That lasted six weeks. Everybody hated it. Everybody hated it. So for the crowd that says,

you know, if you gave them a 20 game suspension, none of this would happen, Brian Shanahan tried to do that and there was just too much pushback, right? Same thing when people say, just call the rule book. Call the rule book.

And if you got to call 10 power plays a game on each side, do it. They'll figure it out. We did that in 2005, 2006, scoring went up because the entire game was played on the power play and everybody hated it. You liked it when your team was getting the power play, but the rest of the time, you're like, this is nonsense. Let them play hockey.

So careful what you wish for, I guess. And, you know, yes, obviously, if you started doing 20 games suspensions and you stuck with it for a few years, then the message gets through and the behavior changes. But you won't get that far. You won't get that far without people losing their minds because all of us, we all pat ourselves on the back. You know, I'm so forward thinking with this stuff. Yeah, until it's your team. And then you fall back on well,

but that's not how they call it for everyone else. So it's okay when my team does it too. Well, you know what, pick a side, pick a lane. And most people pick the lane of whatever works for my team in a given moment. Okay. As we let you go, I think, and I apologize to our producer, Jeff, for throwing this last second. But I think Jeff says he's got a picture of Pat's Garage with the Maple Leafs

that I think we could possibly show here on the way. Look at this. This is old-timey posters of the 90th. The Toronto Maple Leafs, so what years is, Sean, 93? This I believe is 93 or maybe 94. What a time to be alive. Look at this photo. That's still more on the motorbike.

There is a song, too. You can find that on YouTube. Glenn Anderson, the Leafs are the best. Mike Myers makes a guest appearance. It's, yeah, okay. So this is 94. Pat's Garage is 93. The gangster one here is this is,

94, I want to say. What trophies are those hanging up there? That would be the conference champion. No, not the, that's the, the Selekey. And the Jack Adams. Jeez. Pat Burns and Doug Gilmore won the awards. That is the most Toronto thing I've ever seen in my life.

Yeah. Other teams are doing it too. I'm just, you know. But just having those trophies there. But when my team does it, it's okay, Mark. Were you not paying attention to the whole thing? It's not cool for other teams. Well, my team does it.

It's fine. Exactly. All right. Always great to have you drop by. We love the nostalgia. What do we have? References to to Brian Bosworth. Yeah.

Bo Jackson. I think we got to mention it in there. I don't know. I think we had him too. Yeah. Awesome stuff. All right. Hey, listen,

happy holidays to you and the family. And we'll get you again at some point next week. I think we're going to be doing a best of show. So we'll get you in there for that. All right. Thanks, guys. There he goes. Down goes.

Sean McAdoo joining us as he does on a weekly basis here on the athletic hockey show. All right. We've swapped out, down goes Brown, and brought in Eric Duhashik from Calgary. Eric, we were just chatting about, and I think maybe you saw it too because you were kind of in the waiting room. What happened to those great posters of the 80s and the 90s? I don't know. And that I think part of the problem is that, you know, the world changed around us. Mark writes about this all the time.

When I started covering hockey in 1980, 81, we traveled with the team. We were handed boarding card. It was commercial flights, no charters. Al Coates was the travel secretary, and you got handed a boarding card just like the player beside you. And often you sat beside the player, right? So how do you develop relationships with players today? I don't know how I developed them in the first 10 years that I covered hockey was I'd be sitting next to Kerry Wilson, and he'd be studying.

his medical text and we would talk about it and I got to know his family and he got to know mine. And it was just, it felt more like, like you had relationships with people. And I think that the teams thought of it that way. It was, it was, there was a certain, the business was small, right? You know, Gary Betman came in in 93 and hockey became big business. And prior to that, there was something more, you know, like individual entrepreneur feel about it. And so that kind of stuff happened. I mean, you know, you talk about nostalgia.

Okay, I'm the king of nostalgia. My favorite thing, Mark, is that Chicago Blackhawks Christmas Carol, where Frolique Navidat. Oh, yeah, yeah, that was a famous one. And that was fun too. And that was, you know, what, 2012, 13, somewhere around there. Early 2010s, yeah. Yeah, so, you know, I mean, people were, have had fun since.

And there's still some of that on like, on social media. Yeah. Like there's teams that'll do that, but it's, it's done like that one where it's done kind of ironically, where it's not like, you know, look how cool we are. We're in Pat's garage. Yeah. Like it feels like they really meant it back in the 80s, you know? Yeah.

Well, you know, I mean, look at the New York, the New York Rangers, you know, the hockey sack. And I mean, you know, that was just more of a thing there because it just felt like like the NH12, 21 teams, it just felt clubbier. And that over time changed. And we are where we are today. So, yeah, I liked it better in the old days too. But it was mostly because I always go back to this. How do you write effectively about someone if you don't know them?

So there was always a fine line where it helped to know the names of the players' wives and their kids and their birthdays. And you just felt like you were writing about somebody that, you knew, but there was, you couldn't cross the line. Like, you know, to me, you could not have a friendship with a player because there were times when, when you would write something critical about them. And, you know, in the next day, they're sitting on the plane beside you, reading your story in the newspaper where you're letting them have it. I mean, that has happened, that happened 10 times, 12 times. And it, but it always gave you a good opportunity to discuss

what you did for a living. And, and, and I used to have this argument with Gary Roberts, all the time. Roberts would say, all you guys ever do is criticize. And I say, no, we critically evaluate. I said, there is a small nuanced difference because critically evaluating means when you play well, I write that you play well. And when you play poorly, I say you play poorly. And that's, that's just what the job is. And, you know, he would sit there and digest it and we'd go back and forth, but, you know, you had an opportunity to say those things. And I always think about the issues sometimes that, you know, that reporters have with players. It's because nobody gets to communicate. People are standing there in a scrum and there's a question, there's an answer,

there's a question, and an answer, is that it? And then away they go. And, you know, how do you converse with someone? How do you let them know a little bit about yourself? Anyway, it was different and it was more fun, I think, then. Hockey, It doesn't seem to be a lot of joy in the sport right now. It just seems very clinical to me. Yeah. You know, I always say it's, you want to build with athletes, build relationships, not friendships, right?

And if you do that, you can be accountable to them and, and, and, and, and all that. You know, it's, this is actually an easy segue into this. We're talking about spanning the decades or whatever. I said this to last earlier. It's crazy. Jacques Martin, his first game that he coached in the NHL was against Marcel Dion. and Tiger Williams. And on Thursday night, he'll be up against

Kail McCar and Nate McKinnon. So think about that, think of the span of that. I want to segue into Yarmir Yager. And I always thought this was a cool stat about Yager. He's the only guy to ever play against Gila Fleur and Connor McDavid. So you want to talk about spanning generations. That's what Yager did.

But he's back in the news cycle because he's kind of back playing in his hometown. And this punts his, is Hall of Fame eligibility again? And Laz and I, and I don't know where you fall on this, Eric, because you obviously have a great institutional knowledge of the Hockey Hall of Fame and the voting process. At 51, why can't we make Aramare Jager eligible for the Hall of Fame?

Well, I mean, I don't disagree with that. And in the past, the Hall of Fame has made exceptions for players, you know, and waived the three-year eligibility rule. In, you know, Wayne Gretzky's case, you know, like he was inducted five minutes basically after he retired. and he was the only player inducted that year. And eventually they changed that rule and they stopped making exceptions

because of the number of players who had unretired. Mary Lemieux was one, Gila Fleur was another. And they felt that it was a little bit of embarrassing to have somebody in the Hall of Fame, you know, and still playing. So I think at that point they had made a decision that they'd do it at the director level, that they wouldn't make an exception for anyone. I guess my counterpoint would be like, what's the difference?

I mean, Yarram or Yager is a Hall of Fame player. And I think that when the committee meets, when he finally does go three years between his last appearance in a organized game and his eligibility, it'll be 18 eyes around the room because it's an 18-member selection committee and probably a show of hands and they won't have to go through the formal process because everyone knows he's a Hall of Famer. So whether he goes in in the class of, like if he hadn't played this year,

he would be eligible three years from now in 2026 or 2027 or 2029. At some point, he does go in. You know, Dominic Haschuk was the same thing. Like he kept resetting his goalposts. You know, a player who hasn't got in who kept resetting the goalpost was Theo Flurit because he went and played in England. Like, I just don't have an issue with it. It doesn't, to me, it doesn't matter what year he goes in.

But we were talking about fun. I think that in this particular case, because he is so unique, I'd be completely on board with that. And by the way, if you want, I can actually tell you a Yager story because, you know, when you think about when he first started, I saw him play a game a year before he got drafted. And that was more complicated then because Czech players were, you know, like Czechoslovakia had just become the Czech Republic and Slovakia. And in 1989, Calgary Flames team that I was covered, made a 17-day tour of Czech Republic and Russia. And that was after they'd won the Stanley Cup and they were going to Moscow to pick up Sergei Makarov, who was coming to join them as a 33-year-old rookie. But before that, they spent a week in Prague and they played two games against the Czech national team.

And then the second game, the Czech rookie line was scheduled to play. And that was Robert Reichel, Bobby Halik, and a guy named Yara Mariagar that, you know, we were starting to hear hints about because he was draft eligible the next year. So we went out to the Czech training center in Pre-Gram, because we wanted to talk to Robert Reichel, no one that's spoken to him at his draft. And the interpreter, Jan Yonda, introduced us to Reichel and George Johnson and I was there, my colleague at the other paper. We spent about 10 minutes talking to him, but we watched the practice. And one of the things that they did at the practices in those days was that the young players had to pick up all the pucks at the end of practice. So we're there with the interpreter and there's Yager, Haleek, and RICO bending down and gathering all of the pox and carrying them off the ice. And it's like, wow, that's, that is old school.

And then we're interviewing Rikl and this tall guy walks by and it's the spitting image of Mario. And I go, is that Yager? And he goes, looks, the interpreter goes, yeah, that's Yonkers. And I'm thinking, this guy is massive. And so in my mind, I'm thinking, you know, like, why this guy's going to go first overall, even though, you know, in those days it wasn't clear when these young Czech players would be able to come over. And that, of course, you know, Quebec had the first pick that year. And Pierre Paget was running the team.

Took Owen Nolan. I asked him afterwards, I said, this chocker guy, he looks, he's huge. And why wouldn't you take him? Well, you know, when are we going to get him? Well, Pittsburgh took them and got him right away. And, you know, can you imagine? if Yarra Miryager had been drafted by that Quebec team that had young Joe Sackick, young Matt Sundeen, Peter Forsberg coming along the line.

I mean, that could have potentially been maybe the greatest team of all time. The history had been a little bit different. And that was in 1989. And here we are in 2023. And we're still talking about Yara Miryager play. My first job out of school was covering the Penguins in the spring of 2001. I graduated early and I got a job out. And that was Yager's last year in Pittsburgh.

He was already in his 11th season in the NHL, and I was just starting out, and I'm an old man, and he's still playing. It's kind of incredible. The Blackhawks opened the season four years ago in Prague, and I rented a car and popped over to Claudineau, and I visited him, and I did a story on him. And, I mean, to me, this whole Hall of Fame thing is very silly. The same what he's doing is playing organized hockey is a bit of a stretch. He is the owner of the team who needs to sell tickets. And God bless him, he's out there three times. today on the ice practicing with his weighted vest and his weighted

ankleets and all that stuff. And he's still got the big huge ass that bounce all the goals off of. I mean, he's still a horse out there. And you saw that great play he made, that that was going around on Twitter the other day. He made that assist. But he is a novelty act as much as anything in Cladno right now. I know it's the hockey Hall of Fame and not the NHL Hall of Fame.

I get that. But he's 51. He's never playing in the NHL again. Let's just put him in the hallway. Yeah. Yeah, it would be like keeping Spaceman Lee out of some, you know, baseball institution because he's still pitching slow pitch somewhere or whatever. So Eric, we want to ask you one other thing here before we let you go.

And that's a Calgary Flames. And you're in that market. You can see what's happening there. They might be the most interesting team to monitor in the next six weeks or eight weeks. And you've got a brand new general manager, brand new head coach. But what's Craig Conroy up to here? Well, what's going to happen in Calgary as we get closer to the trade deadline? Well, you know, so if you look at Chris Johnson's trade board, he had four flames right at the top of it.

One of them got traded already. That was Nikita Zedoroff. The remaining three are all players that can help a team that thinks they can win a Stanley Cup, potentially win a Stanley Cup. So it's Elias Lindholm, who not that long ago was the center of what we considered the top line in hockey when Johnny Godro was on the one side. Matthew took on the other. You've got Chris Tanna, who the other night blocked 10 shots. and is just this unbelievable warrior who can just grind out the defensive minutes

and just like one of the bravest players I've ever seen. And Noah Hanifan, who came over to Calgary in the same deal with Lindholm from Carolina, who became a much better all-around defenseman than I thought. You know, when he first arrived, I thought there were issues with his hockey sense. And I saw a little bit of Dougie Hamilton in him. And he's just really rounded into a very good NHG. health defensemen. So all are on expiring contracts, all are on very attractive contracts. None of them make $5 million a year. Two of them are $4.9.5, and I think Tanev is four or five. So,

we're approaching the midway point of the season. You know, half the dollars are going to be clicked off by January 6th or 7th. And they're available. Now, you know, there's a difference between being available and making a deal. So of the three, I think the first one, probably who will be traded will be Lindholm, but you have to create a market for him. So you hear Colorado, of course they want him. Colorado's got a chance to win the Stanley Cup this year. Ryan Johansson just flat out is not a number two center. I don't think Colorado can win unless they bring in someone that can play in the top six

and anchor that second line in the same way that Cadre did the year that they won. So to me, that's the logical fit. And then it's a question of, you know, are they prepared to give up what it takes to get him? I think, you know, here Boston Bruins, I think, have a clear need for Lindholm. The sense is that they're just not prepared to pay the price for him. And then, you know, who doesn't need a defenseman when it comes time to, you know, to push for the playoff? So, you know, one of those defensemen likely will end up in Toronto, probably TANF

because, you know, the manager in Toronto signed TANF originally for Calgary. I think the flames haven't completely given up on signing either TANF or HANF and I think that Lindholm has priced himself out of their price range. And he will be traded for sure. I think one of the other two will be traded. And there's a possibility that whichever one isn't traded might sign in Calgary. Yeah, it's going to be fascinating with those guys. The market for Lindholm should be through the roof.

If and when they're ready to move them. Eric, as always, great to have you on. Happy holidays to you. and your family, and hopefully we can get to do this again in, in 2024 with you at some point. All right. My pleasure. There he goes. Eric Duhachick, always great to get him.

And those are just some, oh, man, I would just sit down. I would sit down and just listen to Eric Duhatich talk about media and reporting and kind of the great stories from the 80s, right? I've done that at a bar once or twice, right? It's just the best. Yeah, absolutely. All right, let's wrap up this Thursday pod. Boy, this was a, this is a weird story this week involving Nolan Patrick, who, I mean, second overall pick just, what, 2017, so not that long ago, second overall pick.

And there's a story out, Nolan Patrick has retired. Like, okay, that's kind of weird. But then global news on, on when? Wednesday, last said, we've reached out to the family of Nolan Patrick, 25-year-old, he's not retiring. Elliot Friedman reporting that he did reach out to Nolan Patrick Thursday. He declined to talk, but he did say he is not officially retired. So, you know, I don't know what, I don't know if this is like one of those,

you know, Tom Brady, did he retire, did he not retire a deal? But you just hope that the young man is in a good space because it has been a tough go for him with concussions and a career that just never got, Traction, but isn't it weird that a guy that people would say, oh, he retired and then actually no, hold on, he didn't retire. Well, I mean, that's, speaking of the changing media landscape. I mean, stories come out and, you know, we don't know whether they're true or not half the time until it's confirmed by someone that, you know, that we do know or that the player

himself comes out and says something. We see that all the time now with, you know, show Hey, O'Tani going to Toronto. I mean, you just, you never know what to believe anymore. But I think, I'm assuming that someone just got some. wording wrong and hearing talking about somebody. I mean, it's entirely plausible that Nolan Patrick will never play in the NHL again, right? Given everything he's dealing with, it's entirely possible he doesn't play hockey again.

But he's only 25. And, you know, head injuries and concussions, they're an odd thing. Like, you don't know, like someday he might wake up and feel good again. And you might be able to start training again. And, you know, we saw this with Jonathan Taze and long COVID, where he thought he might be done forever. And then he was able to come back and play a couple of seasons. And now he's deciding whether he wants to do that again.

You know, you could say Jonathan Tage is retired, but he hasn't retired. And we don't know what his plans are because he hasn't told anybody. And I think that's where Nolan Patrick is, these guys, especially at 25 years old, you don't want to give up the hope, right? So he could just be mulling his options, wondering about his future and someone misheard something. I don't know how the story came about, but it's entirely plausible. And I can understand how it can get some traction given his history.

Let's read a couple of emails. I've got to read a couple of emails here to wrap up. show as well as. Ted writes to us, Good morning from Kingston, Ontario. Now that PuckDoku is tracking user stats as to which players you have guessed the most, I'm interested to hear when you guys

play, who are your go-to guesses? My top 12? This is from Ted. Wendell Clark, Paul Korea, Doug Gilmore, Adam Oates, Chris Grattan, Jose, Theodore, Owen Nolan, at Belfore, Mike Keen, Dave Anderichack, Lyle O'Deline, Kirk Muller. I feel like my list is the

tell me you're old without telling me your old list. I'm just interested in what Gen X groups will go with Puckdoku, Gen Z, if that's what Julian is, or Gen Z, I guess as they say in Canada last. Love the show. Thanks for keeping me entertained and informed during my work days. Ted from Kingston. We won't go do your top 12, but if you play Puck Doku, who's like a guy that automatically is in your list?

I gave up on Pock Doku. I was terrible on it. That an immaculate grid. I don't understand it. I have a head for this stuff, but, like, I look at the grid and, like, my brain goes blank. Like, I do gourdle every morning. I'm much better with the word games. I always get gordon.

I'm within four or five tries. Like, that's my, and my go-toes are McDavid, Lemieux, Gretzky, Yanson to start every single time, and I'm gold. Puck, doku, I get panicked and I get into, like, the sweats, and I start feeling like I'm ashamed of myself for being so bad at it. And I just, I was doing so bad. So I gave up because it was, it was, it was, I was starting to question myself worth playing it. Really? Man, it gets right up your alley.

It doesn't make any sense to me. I'm so bad at it. Yeah, I'm with the emailer here, Ted from Kingston. Yeah, a couple of those names are guys that I, Adam Oates. Adam Oates is a good one for like Anaheim and Edmonton. Oh, we're talking about just guys you guess when you don't have an answer.

Guys, you just bid on a lot of teams. Or just your popular guesses. But like, yeah, those are the guys that, you know, or, you know, Jose Theodore in Minnesota, like the guys who were sneak, sneakily played somewhere. Brett Hall in Arizona is always a good one. Guys that only just played somewhere of Marty Broder in St. Louis. Every time there's Rangers ones, I pick Rich Pilon and it's like 0.1%. Oh, yeah.

Mack and I always joke about how was there a guy? Imagine today in the age of social media and the defenseman and his name is Rich Pylon. and imagine the abuse he would take as I think that's why he was a tough guy, right? He probably had to deal with that stuff growing up so bad. Like being named like, I don't know, like Dick Johnson or something in high school, you have to learn to defend yourself. I think that's how Rich Pylon, he had to pronounce a Pilon for one thing. And then he had to beat up a lot of guys along the way.

I think that's how he got to the NHL. Oh, man. You know what my go-to game is in the morning to kind of get my brain going? and this isn't just a blatant New York Times cross-promotion, but I'm all about connections. I love connections, yeah. Connections is my game. I wake up and I do wordle, gordle, and worldle,

which is guessing a country based on its shape and then it's neighbors. That's how I get my brain going in the morning. Oh, my God, I would be terrible. I get into the New York Times suite. And I do letterboxed and I do the crossword puzzle. And I do spelling bee and all that. I got to be a little sharper for connections. Oh, man.

Can't do that first thing. Okay. Real quick here, let me sneak this one in from Zach from Tennessee, because it kind of comes up to your alley because it has a Chicago theme to it. Zach says, first time writing into the show, long time listener and a fan. My question is, why aren't teams calling about Phil Kessel? He's got 992 career points, still holds the league's Iron Man streak. I don't see why a team like Chicago doesn't take a shot with Phil the thrill.

He's not that old. And so, you know, he goes on to say, look, I think Phil Kessel deserves to get to a thousand points. He might be a nice fit somewhere. Love the show. Keep up the great work. Your show makes my quiet overnight shifts bearable. That's from Zach in Tennessee. Thanks, thanks for the note. Zach, glad we can help out making those shifts a little bit more enjoyable. So Phil Kessel, why isn't anybody signed him? And would he be a fit in Chicago? I mean, his name has certainly come up among Chicago fans over the last couple of months because, God, Connor Bredard needs some help, right? He needs people that can play with him. What he's doing,

considering the linemates he's had this year is even all the more remarkable. And it's scary to think what he'll be able to do when he has guys that can play with him. He has guys that are third, fourth liners that have been playing with him for much of the season. And maybe Lucas Reichel will come out of his slump and be that guy. But yeah, I'm on board with this. I talked to Kyle Davidson, the Blackhawks GM, just a couple of just last week in Seattle. And this is my first question for him is, why aren't you getting Conner-Bard Hill? And look, I don't know what Phil Kessel, what he has left in the tank, but he would be very cheap.

he just wants to play. Skating was never an issue for him. He should be able to keep up, right? And if you get a, and you get, you know, everyone likes Phil Kessel, you get him a thousand points, you get to have a ceremony, you get to sell some tickets. Like, there's no harm. He wouldn't be holding anybody back.

That's a long-term part of the future here. The Blackhawks do, I do think they're obligated to get Connor Bedard some help. I don't know if Phil Kessel, it really qualifies, but considering what they've been trotting out with him for much of the season, I mean, Phil Kershev is like a third, third, fourth line, or Ryan Donato is the guy right now. Nick Villano has been really good this year, but that's not what they signed him to be a top line left wing.

Get him some help. And the Blackhawks are not willing to make a trade to do so. They're not willing to give a futures for this. Phil Kessel wouldn't cost him anything. And God knows they've got caps space to burn. So why not? Let's do it. Give me something to write about.

I'm bored. Give me something. Yeah. Listen, Kessel being the Iron Man, Kessel getting a thousand points, all that would give you plenty of stuff to write about. All right. So thanks for that note from Zach from Tennessee. That's a perfect place for us to end the podcast.

We want to let people know that this week coming up on the weekend, Max Boltman, Corey Prondman with the World Junior Hockey Championships around the corner, the Athletic Hockey Show, Prospect Series with Max and Corey. New episode will drop on the weekend. So look out for that. Last, listen, thanks for doing this. This was a ton of fun. Spend the hour with you here.

Always, man. Always happy to be the stopgap, the Jock Martin of, The Athletic Hockey Show. I love it. I love it. And we want to say to all of our listeners, you know, listen, Merry Christmas,

happy Hanukkah, happy New Year from the entire crew here at the athletic hockey show. Happy holidays because we appreciate like those notes that we got from, from Zach in Tennessee. It's those types of notes that, that really, you know, make us feel good about what we do here and keeping you entertained.

So we want to wish all of you who listen to the athletic hockey show, a happy and safe holiday season. So that does it. For the Thursday podcast, I want to remind you that if you're, just looking for that last minute gift. And you're like, oh, my God, it's December 22nd. And I haven't bought that certain something for somebody in my life.

We want to let you know that from now to the end of the year, you can gift a one-year subscription to the Athletic for 1999 or a two-year subscription for $39.99. When you visit athletic.com slash hockey show.