The Athletic Hockey Show - Don Granato's Buffalo Sabres win more, not just for today, Boston Bruins: the NHL's best & Sheldon Keefe & Mitch Marner rift

Episode Date: November 1, 2022

Don Granato, the head coach of the Buffalo Sabres joins Craig and Sean to talk about his team's hot start, the contributions of youngsters Rasmus Dahlin, Tage Thompson and Jack Quinn and the guiding force of veterans Craig Anderson, Kyle Okposo and Jeff Skinner. Also this week on the American's, Craig and Sean stick tap the somewhat surprising play of the Boston Bruins and Vegas Golden Knights, and debate the growing controversy in Toronto revolving around coach Sheldon Keefe and star player Mitch Marner.Get a 6 month subscription to The Athletic for just $1 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshowSubscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: https://bit.ly/3BKz27u Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. Hey, everybody. Happy Tuesday to you and yours. I'm Craig Custin's. Happy All Saints Day. Is it All Saints Day? What is that exactly? I don't know.

We used to get the day off in Catholic school. Did you really? Yeah, it was tight with a day off after Halloween every single year. I think the day after Halloween should be a holiday. And it is if you're Catholic and Sean Gentile. That's Sean Gentile. Until you, whatever, whoever is. I'm Craig Custin's.

Did I say that? Oh, it's Tuesday. It's time for the American edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. And what a show we have in store today. We have possibly top three, Tuesday show Hall of Famer. Don Granado returns. Donnie meatballs. I didn't wear my shirt, but I should have.

Do you have your shirt ready to go for that interview later today, Sean? That's a great. That's a great call. I need it. Buffalo Sabres, head coach, Don Granato. I don't know if he's a friend of the show, but we can call him that behind his back. And we like him.

And we like the Sabres. So that's coming up in Segment 2. Hold on. Like he was like the second, I believe he was the second guest we ever had. He is certainly the first return guest who's been team personnel both times. We've had Keith Yandel on twice, but Keith's in the media now.

So it doesn't count. That sounds like a technicality. I don't think it is. I think there's something to be said for having, you know, a coach back twice who has been coaching the same team the entire time, in my opinion. And he also, he also, he also busted my ass about having a, oh, my dress. The drawers. Yeah. You should, can you, hold on, between now and when we record, which we're doing later today,

you just trash the room, like, just make it up. Yeah, it might take me a while. It's going to be a real, I don't know, man. You're asking a lot. So that's segment two. We wanted to start and talk a little bit about the Boston Bruins. And we are going to tie in some Toronto Maple Leafs talk because it's coach-related. I know it's controversial on the American show, but it's really interesting what's going on up there.

We're going to tie this in. But Jim Montgomery and your Boston Bruins folks are off to an eight-and-one start. Best team in hockey right now. Fluto is already writing Mia Culpa. It's about I was wrong about this team. they're playing fast. There's depth there. They seem to be rallying around the coaching change.

I know it's early. Maybe a soft schedule. I've heard a little bit of rumblings of, you know, they've had some breaks early in the schedule. But, Sean, the Bruins are on fire. Where is this coming from? And without Charlie McAvoy, by the way. Flutos are writing me at Culpas.

I honestly hadn't even seen that. is. He's already done that I was wrong about this team column, which usually you say for December, but he's ready to declare it now. That's an early declaration on I was wrong about this team. You know it wasn't wrong about this team? Oh, here we go. Me. Oh, you knew this was coming? Me! Did you really? You do, come on. I picked that, yeah. I think they were, I think the reports of the demise were a little bit exaggerated. I don't think I had them at eight and one. Or whatever. By the way, quick, quick rundown of the game log.

Just so we know where we're at. Okay. Washington, Arizona, Florida, Ottawa, Anaheim, Minnesota, Dallas, Detroit, Columbus. Like, is that soft? I don't think so. Some teams coming off back to back to banks, I think. I'm going to twist the data to support my narrative.

which is a hallmark of really any good journalists in 2020. I thought they would be okay. I didn't think that, I think Jim Montgomery is a good coach. I think there was going to be a bit of a coach bounce there. I think Patrice Bergeron is still Patrice Bergeron. Goaltending, not a disaster. It was good enough last year with Olmarc and Swamen. And I thought they were going to be able to tread water until McAvoy in Marchand and

Grizzlik and those guys came back. That I think they were going to be 8 and 1. Did I think they were going to be you know, a true, like the kind of five on five powerhouse we've seen from them again. Like this year, just like,

just like all the last. No. I mean, they're, because they are their top five in X goals and all that stuff. And I think they're dominating to a degree that I doubt that anybody really anticipated in the first month of the season. But this is still a really good team. I think the pump was primed for them to be, for them to, if nothing else, treadwater and be in, avoid, you know, catastrophe early on in the season and then wait for Marshaun and Mackoy to get back.

This, you know, I remember being pretty surprised when Bruce Cassidy was was fired in Boston. And, you know, some of the things that Fluto was mentioning was, oh, this team seems to really like Jim Montgomery, really like the style. you're starting to realize that maybe there was, I mean, more frustration than was publicly shared about the coach last year. And so I think that's probably a big part of it. David Pasternak, who has 17 points through nine games for the Boston Bruins, still need to be signed with it. 17 points giving him one for every million dollars he will make annually on his next contract.

Yeah. Pierre LeBron reported, it was a few days ago now, I want to say, that there still seem to be a bit of a gap between the Bruins and Pastornex Camp. This one's going to be a bit of a grind. Although, you know, it gets done, but I feel like every day, doesn't the asking price go up there? Yeah, but the thing about them is, I mean, I think it makes sense for both sides to get something done. And that sounds corny and it's something you hear all the time, but it is true. They have a lot of money, and they have a lot of money.

and they have a lot of money coming off the books next year. That's the other thing you need to think about when you're talking about. Posternak in the Bruins. Now, are these players that they want to sign? Like, yeah, sure. But Nick Folino makes almost $4 million against the cap, right? They picked him up on waivers. Pavel Zaka has been a good pickup for them, but he's expensive.

Did they keep him around? Craig Smith comes off. That's 3.1. Who knows what happened with Bergeron? I think the question is, you know, is this the last run for the Bruins as, as constituted? And I feel like that's going to be part of the calculus for Passenach. Is he going to say like, yeah, sure, I want to stick around. I want to be, you know, especially if we're living in a post-Berserrhon era, right?

Like, that's all that matters for that team is what he decides to do. Because the moment he's out, regardless of how good Brad Marchand still is, regardless of, you know, strides, you know, if Charles, you know, if Charles, Maccabwe ends up winning a Norris this year. Whatever ends up happening. Yeah. They go as far as Bergeron goes, right? So if he splits, then all bets are off.

But if he's, you know, I don't know, it's not impossible to see a world where something gets done between Posternak and Boston. So this is the classic, like, maybe we should have seen this coming a little bit more because this is like the classic rally around Bergeron, hey, let's just dial in. then one last year here as a group and come out house of fire. Yeah. And Craichie's still a good player. That's a big thing too. Like I think, I don't know if people, I don't know if people over underestimated how much him leaving last year meant to that, to that roster. But I don't know, man, 60% X goals. He's scoring points. He's doing David Craichie things on that second line, giving them an option, you know,

other than just stacking everything up top. Because that's what Creati does, right? Like, I think he just makes everything fit. You don't have to worry about Charlie Coil playing out of position and playing as your second line center, which is like not going to work. Didn't work last year. It wasn't going to work again.

Once you have Creachian place, those guys, their lineup just makes a whole lot, a whole lot more sense. And, you know, again, Hampus Lindholm's... I was going to say. Let's appreciate Hamas Linholm,

how good he's been. One of those moves last year, like, I don't know if I appreciated it and kind of what was wondering where the Bruins were in their arc. And if it made sense to pick up somebody kind of where he was in his career. And he's really good. He's been really good for them. Yeah, not just the trade. You know, it's the extension that came immediately after that. That was the one where intellectually, you know, I have no problem.

Like, of course, they should trade for him to slint home. Like this is a win now, especially at that point. It's a win now team. Like, what are you going to do? You're not going to have to trace Bergeron forever. Like McAvoy is elite. Give them some help. The left side of their defense was always kind of funky, even when Griswick was healthy.

So, you know, go get them. That's fine. The extension is where, you know, stuff starts to get fuzzy. But we've talked about this. I mean, you and I have talked about it in a million different places. I feel like at this point. Like, who cares about the last three years of that deal or two years of that deal for Hamas

Linholm? Like, truly, who cares? Even when, even when they signed it, even when it seemed like it was going to age badly and it's still, still may.

Yeah. Like, what's the point? Try to win hockey games. When you have Patrice Bergeron and David Posternak and Elite Charlie McAvoy and all these pieces in place, like, is it going to pay off?

Like, probably not. Like, are they going to win a cup? Like, you shouldn't bet on it, right? Like, they're not like odds on favorites. It's okay to try. Try. What's what? Like, otherwise,

otherwise, seriously, what's the point? Like, we're, like, we're sitting here in splitting hairs and parsing over whether Hampus Lindelm should have gotten four years or five years or whatever. It's just, it's crazy. Go, go out and win games while you have the top end talent that, you know, kind of necessitates that the try. Right. And so you could say, well, you know, Bruce Cassidy, maybe that was the issue.

But meanwhile, out in the Pacific Division, your Vegas Golden Knights are eight and two, not bad. Seems like he's doing okay out there. Like that team, is that a goaltender story or a coach story in your mind? I think no matter what happened with that team this year, it was going to be a, it was going to be a goaltender story. Yeah. Because that's just the nature. Like, that was the narrative that emerged after their offseason because we had, maybe a goofy ending to the season with Robin Lennar.

Then it turns out that he needs surgery. Like that whole thing was a mess. But that it was also unexpected and, you know, kind of late in the game when we found out that Lennar was going to miss the season with the hip thing, right? So of course, that's a narrative that took hold because there's nobody proven behind him. But you've got to say that with an asterisk because Logan Thompson was really good. down the stretch last year. And there are a lot of people around that team and a lot of people, you know, who have paid attention to Logan Thompson for much longer than I have,

who were pretty bullish on him and what he would do if he had a chance to run with the job here. And that's what's happened. But it's also happened in concert with that team, you know, kind of fulfilling some of its potential from a skater standpoint, right? Like their numbers are, their numbers are exactly where you want them to be. Eichol seems like he's Eichol, the end. Yeah, who could have seen that coming? I know. For those who are, Logan Thompson's sitting with a 943 save percentage and 1.69 goals against.

Yeah. He's plus, he's like more than six goals saved above expected. Like everything across the board checks out with the way Logan Thompson's played through the first, through his first six starts this season. Aiden Hill's been pretty good back in a month. I mean, like, this is an all-around success story, I think, for Vegas at this point, right? This is exactly what they needed because of the noise and the drama. Most of itself created by, you know, that organization and the way it's done things and kind of the track it's set for itself. But this is the start they needed, man.

And it's in its unfolding exactly the way they could have hoped. So it leads us, and we won't turn this into Maple Leaf. leaf talk, but for one minute, just because I like talking about coaches, you have through the lens of Boston and Vegas, kind of two spectrums and maybe how strict a program or how hard on players a coach may be. And again, just generalizing. You know, there's a lot of talk coming out of Toronto about how Mitch Marner is being treated or should be treated or. So where are you in that, like, where are you in that pendulum of, you know, hey, you're allowed to coach players.

You're allowed to call out a player. These are millionaires with high expectations. You have to hold players accountable, but also, oh, you may lose them at some point and end up losing your job. Man, it's a tough spot. I think it's a microcosm of how screwed up the situation is in Toronto right now, right? There's so much stuff going wrong with that team, dude. And we all, everybody focused on the goaltending at the start of the season,

understandably because Matt Murray and Alia Samsona both stunk out loud last year and for the foreseeable you know in the recent past and all that reasonably right it was fine for people to harp on the goaltending and all that stuff that's ironically been kind of the least of their problems like murray's hurt but Samsonov's has been fine whether that continues like is almost besides the point as he's kind of kept them afloat that's when all the other stuff has gone haywire. And there's roster issues and there's performance issues and, you know, there's bad luck. There's a million different things kind of circulating here.

But the Marner thing is A1 top of the mountain. That's like the six alarm fire that they're trying to put out this week. And it's insane. Like the narrative around it is insane. The argument against Sheldon Keith's decision is insane. You're basically arguing against the concept of coaching a player. Like I, and I think that that's sort of, you know,

because I think we're generally a pro player space and, and all that. 100%. Like that's, like, I certainly am. Oh, what is that supposed to mean?

I think you're, because you're, because you're a boss. I'm pro management coaching. Your management. You're management. All right. Fair enough.

Like, what are we, like, what are we supposed to do with, like what is Sheldon Keeves supposed to do with Mitch Marner? Because all the, because whether it's, whether it's people on Twitter or, or media folks like making this argument where it's like, well,

you know, you got to be, you got to be aware if you're Sheldon Keefe, uh, of, of the kind of personality you're dealing with, with Mitch Marner. And the implication is that Mitch Marner can't be coached,

that he can't be criticized, that he can't, that you can't push any of the buttons with him. him that you would with a normal player. And I don't understand how that's a justifiable case. Like, you're like, oh, no, this is, it's not a justifiable case. It's not a justifiable argument. Mitch Marner is good.

Like, that's basically what it boils down to him. Mitch Marner is really good. So you should just kind of let him do what he wants is, is the, is the argument here. Right. I don't understand. And I, and I sincerely don't understand it. Like, that, like, that is the, that is a fundamental. problem with the Toronto Maple Leafs. If Mitch Martin needs to be treated differently than everybody

and, you know, but he's good. So it justifies this crazy treatment where he can't even be gently criticized publicly or bench for any amount of time or whatever. Like, what are we, what are we talking about here? Right. Yeah. Then what levers can Sheldon pull? Like, what is he, what is he supposed to do? Ask, ask him. Then you're just a caretaker. Then you're just like, here, good luck, boys. Because the justification can't be like, Mitch Morner cares and he plays hard and whatever, because yeah, sure, he cares and lots of guys care and play hard. And at times their performance doesn't, doesn't back it up. And they make bad decisions because maybe they're trying too hard. What do you do then? I don't, and there's not

a right answer to it. And I think that's kind of, you know, I know that that's a lot of what, you know, people who are making the argument are kind of flicking at here. Like, there's no easy, there's no easy solution. But just washing your hands of it and saying like, oh, you know, Sheldon shouldn't have done that. Like, what? What? Yeah.

That's, that's senseless. That's, uh, let's make sure we ask Don Grinado, something along those lines. I mean, he's not going to want to talk about Mitch Marner, but, um, he's coming up next in the next segment. He's, he's a guy that would players seem to really like to play for. He got the job because he was developing young talent, but he's also pushing people. I don't think anyone thinks Donnie Grunato is going to, you know, isn't going to push his So that's, let's, let's take a break here. I think I, I think I know how I'm going to phrase it.

All right. Oh, yeah. Okay. Let's say you were in Toronto. No. Find a good way to phrase it so he doesn't know what we're asking. All right. We're now thrilled to be joined.

Again, this is a, this is a, this is a, I guess, recurring interview about this time of year by Buffalo Sabres coach, Don Granato. Coming off a solid 8-3 win over the Red Wing, seems, things. going pretty, pretty well in Buffalo. Don, how are you? Thanks for doing this. Good. Thank you. Yeah, I'm glad to hear you're thrilled. That doesn't, that's not a word I've heard often when. We're thrilled. It's, I really say that for everyone. I'm not like, you know, but I really am.

Right. I mean, he says it, that's the way he like plays in every guest and I can tell when he's lying. Like, it's very, it's very clear when he's like not interested to talk to somebody. Seriously? That's not the, that's not the case. Is this a genuine thrill? I'm thrilled. Yeah, he's psyched. Yeah.

This is honest. But he lies all the time. He lies for he lies about other people, not you. Oh, all right. Great. Thanks. Beware, guess. That's right.

That's right. Hey, we're thrilled again to be. So, Don, there's, I mean, there's so much to cover here with this team. I'm going to start with Tage Thompson because he's coming off this monster game in, against Detroit. And, you know, if you're just looking at the scores, she seems like he's on track, but I imagine he probably, I think you even said at some point, it was probably putting some pressure on himself early on. How long did he, do you think it took

for him to work that out? Well, it was probably one week ago. I had, we had media members asking, you know, are you concerned with a slow start by him? Yeah. Are you concerned with him and even Jeff Skinner? And my answer was no. I don't think there's any reason to be concerned this early. These guys are not in. I mean, it's a fight to get into mid-season form, which is kind of a rhythm. They can't train for regular season games over the summer. They can train in the weight room. They can train their skills.

But, you know, the regular season pace and teamwork and, you know, rhythm that you need to hit as a team, that's not coming for at least 10 to 20 games. And, you know, the habits that Tage has, the commitment, dedication that he has to getting to his game, you could see the work he put in, you know, through training camp and the work he put in through practices in early season, there was an inevitability to him scoring based on that with his talent, with his skill levels. So, you know, as long as we could do our part as coaches and keep him, you know, upbeat, not second guessing himself and buying in to anybody else's frustration, I thought we would be fine. And he's, it's not his first time.

through challenges and adversity, as you guys know. He's got a lot of experience at hardship, even though he doesn't have a long NHL career yet. And he's proven to battle right through it. So this was minor for him. I mean, last season we saw him make as drastic a jump as we've seen from any player in a long time. I mean, he was, he was unbelievable. How did he, how has he improved off of that? Like, what is he added to his bag over the summer? Like how has he changed as a player even from that serious change we saw in between 20 and 21? The biggest and most impactful change is reassurance that all the work you put in before you saw the reward was accurate, right? It was worth it.

You know, now if I think about, you know, two players I had on the same team at the national team program were Tage Thompson, I can name several. you know, Austin Matthews, Matthew Kachuk, Charlie McAvoy, Zach Wrenski, all on the same team at the national team. They're in the same birth year. And the trajectory for, say, Austin Matthews or Matthew Kachuk was, you know, pretty much impact upon entry to the NHL. For Tage, you know, it took longer, it took much longer. And yet, you know, I could see that he was every bit as talented as those guys.

and, you know, different, different skill sets maybe, but, but every bit as talented. And you, you know, through that duration, you know, you can second guess yourself at times. You can wonder if you're going to get to where you suspected you might get to. And then after scoring 38 goals and whatever number of points he had, having time to reflect over that in the summer, and then coming in now and doing what he's done just in the last little bit, I think he's coming to the realization. Like, hey, I am, you know, I am a top player. I can be a top player immediately right now.

I don't have to wait any longer. And that was a big part of our conversations a year ago. You know, I had lots of talks with him early in the season last year saying, Taze, you've done all the work necessary. You are an NHL goal score. Now the only thing left is to score. You can't work any harder and commit any longer than you have. You're a scorer.

And it was almost like a release for him. And now that you accomplish that, it's another level of release. His self-image, self-projection, you know, is now accurate that he's, you know, a handful at the NHL level and imposing player. And he's, I think, getting acclimated accustomed to that and having fun with it. I think last night is a great example of that, right? Because the first goal is a bazooka. It's a stuff you expect from, you know, a six-seven dude. but those other two goals

those are handsy those are goal scorer goals that you typically see from guys who are seven seven eight nine inch shorter than him right so is that is that something that he's developed that's sort of the ability and tight the confidence to go in there and kind of and make those moves like is that something you saw

from him even when you had him at the program that he probably did that to fault at the program he you know I talk a lot And guys, you know, they're trying to score the highlight goal or the pretty goal, you know, and then you have the goal score that just keep shooting the puck. You know, Alex de Brinket comes to mind. Just give me the puck and shoot it. It's off my stick before it even gets on my stick. I just want to score.

And then, you know, at the other end of the spectrum are the guys that, you know, toe drag and actually try to, you know, carry it all the way into the net and tuck it in. and Tej had that confidence. So there's not an overall negative to it, I guess, or a long-term negative to it because you have confidence in your skill. And so, yes, at the national team, I thought Tage was guilty of that then as a 16-year-old. You know, you're going to give up 20 goals a year just because you're trying to score the perfect goal every time. I'm down. You know, you can actually rip it through the defenseman and score a goal.

right now immediately. So as a visual, you know, a player, the pure and natural goal scorers feel that I can score the goal anywhere. I can score shooting through two defenders and pick my corner. The other guy says, I need to get around the defenseman, then get to the goalie, then I can work on scoring the goal. And it's just a different mindset. And like I said, you know, having worked with, or been around, you know, Alex DeBrinke with Chicago, that's a, that's a perfect example. He's ready. As soon as that puck is coming toward his stick, he believes he can find a way to score right now. And Tasia's getting that.

And then that's been a push, you know, from us as coaches to him, catch and release because you're giving the goalie too much of an opportunity to get ready and set for your shot. And he's done that. He's done that better. So somebody little in a completely different space in their development, Jack Quinn sits, sits. a couple games and then seems like he comes back a different player. I think the, you said he was like a honing torpedo, I think was your quote when he came back.

Like what leads to that? What's the switch that went off when you see a young player? Yeah, it's exciting. It's definitely exciting. I used the term homing torpedo. I remember saying that about him last season. Yeah. When we sat down to Rochester.

He said, he just gets like a homing torpedo. You just sit and have a meeting with him and point out a couple of things. And he just zeroes right in on it. And he's off. And he's not going to stop until he gets it done. So very intuitive guy for a young guy. We felt the start of the year.

It was a little bit overwhelming the first couple of games. You go from NHL preseason to NHL regular season. That actually is a monumental jump. Yeah. Yeah. When you're a young guy. Excuse me, because your rosters in preseason the NHL are filled with lots of young guys, American League players, players that are on their way, the American League,

and then veteran players that are, you know, somewhat going through the motions, you know, with some, you know, attention to maybe not getting hurt, not pulling a groin just to get ready gradually for the regular season, knowing they're going to have to turn it up in mid-October or opening night. And so for opening night in the NHL, it was such a huge. huge jump for Jack. It caught him off guard. He played the first couple. And then we thought, you know, sitting down with Kevin, Kevin Adams and myself, the rest of the coach, we thought, hey, this is an opportunity. He could step back for a game or two and decompressed from this.

And we felt it would, you know, the way he is, it would help him. And it certainly has. He came back from that. And he's been better every game from the standpoint of looking more comfortable, even stronger. What's the messaging there with a player like that when you are saying, right, let's get you some distance. Let's take a breeder here, especially a guy like that who seems like he cares, certainly cares and maybe cares a little bit more than most. Like how do you deliver that, especially early in the season to a guy like that?

Well, the messaging is different for every player and for every situation. There's always unique attributes to it. But for Jack, I think he only played two games last season. much easier for him to accept, you know, stepping back, sitting in the press box or being, you know, being scratched from the lineup than obviously, you know, a player older. And, you know, he, we felt we had built up enough relationship, enough trust in a relationship with him between myself. And really, Kevin Adams, are a general manager, you know, discussing having conversation with him last year. year, you know, through training camp, even from the point we drafted him a couple of years ago, we built the relationship that we felt, you know, he trusts us that we have his best interest

in mind in decisions we're making because we want him. We see how talented he is and we want him to be successful sooner than later. And I think that made it easy for us to, to approach him and say, hey, we're going to hold you out for the next two games. And I told him that, you know, it'll be a couple games. And then you're going to be right back in there. And it's, this is not a, I guess what we wanted to do was make sure that it wasn't a threatening situation to him. Right. So we, we prefaced it that way. We said, hey, you're going to step back for a couple, but, you know, it's, it's not going to be much, because we need you back in there. We want you back in there. We actually think this is a, uh, a good opportunity to just decompress for a moment before you get your next game in. Well, Sean and I was just

talking about the, you know, just the different personality approaches of coaches in the different styles and how they all can succeed. You see what Jim Montgomery's doing with Boston with the same crew that Bruce Cassidy had. Bruce is having success in Vegas with a different, you know, he's certainly a different kind of coach. We were talking about, you know, Mitch Marner and kind of some of the controversy or whatever that's surrounding how he's being handled. And I came, as we were talking about this, and then, you know, I was reading some stuff, you know, some coverage. you had a quote that said your approach is about creating. I love that creating a challenging environment, not a threatening one.

I think that's probably a fine line. So I would love for you to kind of expound on that. What does that look like when you're dealing with a player? You have to correct things. You can't. Players can't do whatever they want out there. How do you walk that fine line between challenging a player and or, you know, making sure that they don't feel threatened?

Well, that is about as deep a question as I've ever had. Honestly, because it is everything you do, you're writing that fine line in the position of being a head coach. You know, how you walk in a room, your mannerisms, how you talk, your verbiage, your, you know, eye contact, no eye contact. I mean, everything is. Yeah. Mostly, you know, fitted in the context, I guess, of, and I've mentioned this a lot, even to our media. You know, there's 50 things in a game I could react on. you know, if you just think of fans watching the game, you can get frustrated with this or that or this.

And, you know, as a head coach, I can't, you know, it's, you can't overreact. And you get in trouble overreacting, trying to react to everything. Yeah. So, you know, part of that that fits with creating a challenging environment, not a threatening environment is how you react to things and what you react to. and do you overreact? You know, we've had, you know, even a disgruntled player, you don't want to overreact. You don't want to take things personal.

You don't want to make it a personal situation. It's just, hey, you have a player that overreacts, and you know what? I've had plenty of players that overreact me. It's going to happen. It's part of our job. Let's just discuss it, talk about it, and move on. Make sure that guy knows we actually support him,

even though he might have lost some emotional control. and didn't operate the way we had hoped. But hundreds of incidents come to mind. Again, even your post-game, how you speak to your team, how you speak to your team the next day after a game, win or loss, our areas that you really, you know, we look at and say, okay, are we crossing the line? Is this going to be perceived as threatening?

rather than challenging. And then again, over the years, you know, the hindsight of coaching over the years is what, you know, what I guess it's, I've got a lot of experience making errors in that. Over the years. I mean, it's true. It's a fact that you were,

you push a guy too hard or you, you say things the wrong way and the guy instantly feels threatened. And you see it in their manners and you see it in their performance. You know, not to make a mistake rather than immerse in the moment. And, you know, this is a unforgiving business, as we all know. These guys are critiqued and criticized often and regularly. So it's, they can feel threatened at any moment.

So it is a very, very fine line. I can't really explain it, but it happens in everything you do. You're, you got to ask yourself that question, especially when you're around your team. Are there strategies? I was just going to follow up. Are there strategies like I don't talk to the team after a game or that, you know, guardrails you've put up so that you can protect yourself from overreacting?

Well, one of the, one of the simple things in hockey is when the coach walks in the locker and he's going to show video, think about if you lost the game, what video is going to go up on that screen in front of the team. so you know there's a moment there is it going to be threatening or is it going to be challenging and we pay a lot of attention to things like that and you have decisions to make as a coach you know what what clips you show what angle you take what you know what initiative you're taken and your tone and everything else so yeah there's it's there's a lot of subtleties I guess hard to quantify yeah yeah but you you always

over the years you develop a field. You learn through that, again, fortunately, you know, unfortunately making mistakes, but that was part of the beauty for me of coaching a long time at the, you know, at a level not in the NHL. You know, you had opportunity to try stuff that you just couldn't try in the NHL. You know, you just can't try. It's not a, it's, the NHL is not a league of innovation. Most of the innovation is outside, you know, and then brought in later.

And that's what we've seen an influx of that in the last 10 years in our sport, or in the NHL, I should say. So I was grateful to have lots of years outside the league before I, you know, got my shot as a head coach in it wouldn't help me. Well, I mean, that's the natural follow up to that is like what is the influx of things you've seen brought from the outside world and into the NHL? Well, just let's take, for example, the influence, you know, 10, 12 years ago, the 30-year-old player, in the NHL was the guy getting all the money and the next big contract and now it's a 23 year old. Right. And so what's happened there is the leverage in the league shifted from, you know, the 30-year-old and let's face it, the physically your body at 30, you know, as you age, this is a young man's sport. So the leverage was, you know, in that, in those hands.

And if you think of that, then the agents, that's where they were, you know, that's the players that were being signed to the big contract. So that's the ones that were paid attention to. And when it flipped, and the younger guys, those were the guys that were used to skills coaches and different types of practices and different, you know, extra different stuff. And that really shifted the whole game. And obviously, you know, the player agents had to shift then too. And they went into more heavy recruiting of kids that weren't even in the league knowing that, you know, bigger money was going to players at a younger age. So just the whole influence structure. of the NHL changed just incredible how much it changed, really in the last seven, eight years

based on that, based on where the contract, where the dollars have gone to the age group that it's gone. Those players have now, they influence the league much greater than the older guy at this point. You mentioned, you said something was hard to quantify. Here's another thing that's maybe kind of hard to quantify. how do you deal with making sometimes the the right choice in a moment on a given day maybe isn't the right choice for a week down the line or a month down the line or six months down the line and vice versa like how do you how do you balance that making the right

choice as a coach in the moment in a given situation versus you know thinking with you know two eyes ahead of the future yeah I don't know if I have the answer that but I will tell you how I process that. And you are always coaching to win your next game. So you're thinking and strategizing, okay, how do we win tomorrow's game? But you know you have 70 more games left.

And you know your team needs to be better as the season moves along. Your players need to be better, your team needs to be better. So you're balancing those two. It's, there was a quote that I really loved about, I read a lot of Phil Jackson when I was younger. And one, he said, I'm not a win at all cost guy.

I'm not going to sell my soul to win, basically. And I know that, you know, when you win at all costs, it was almost like the other side of it was you're jeopardizing long term potential as well. So for us, even with the sabres, you know, we go out and try to win every game. We owe that to our fans. And we owe that, I owe that as a coach to our players. but we also know that we need to get better as a team. So you're balancing decisions that I need to get young guys playing against top stars in the league, even though they're probably more vulnerable than maybe a more seasoned guy,

but I need this guy to have experience because in two months from now, he can improve way more than player B who's been in the league for seven, eight, nine, ten years. And so you're balancing the short-term gain of a win with the long-term gain. gain of more wins, if that makes sense. Yeah. And I always looked at it where, you know, my priority is win more, not win at all cost today. And, you know, and that, that was a tough thing in Buffalo because they've been not in the

playoff for so long. They're like, just get me to the playoffs. Yeah. They're like, we can worry about it. You know, and win more now. It's like I'm not, we're working toward the playoffs, but I'm not going to make decisions to based on just trying to get to the playoffs. I want to win in the playoffs.

I want to make sure we become a better team when we do get to the playoffs. And Kevin Adams has been, you know, thinks and processes the same way. So does our owner Terry Pugula. So, you know, that's, I guess, you are trying to win tomorrow's game, but you are balancing it out.

We want to be better and win more games down the road. So if that helps bring a little bit of clarity, and then everything falls in line from your decisions from that. point is how I find it and how we operate. Who else you read and besides Phil Jackson to get better? Lots of business books. I love, I love business books. Geez, you stump me, but I've got stacks of books at home that I just love going through. Even go through them and I'll highlight them and then over the summertime I'll go through

all my highlights and zip through, you know, book after book and it's enjoyable and there's a lot of good reading out there. You mentioned players who, you know, maybe you're going to. to give him exposure to top, top guys on the other team, you know, with the thought that this is what they're going to need to face down the road. Is Dylan Cousins one of those guys?

I mean, he's a, a lot of people expected to jump from him. And there's been, and there's, we've seen, we've seen signs of it early, haven't we?

Yeah, there's been lots of signs. He's bigger. He's stronger. He's, I should say, he's thicker. He's heavier.

He's stronger. You know, the shot he scored on last night. He would have been one of those guys that probably wouldn't have believed he was in a score. area that far away from the net. He came off the wing and just ripped one over Nadelcovic's shoulder. It was just a spectacular shot and goal. And I don't know if he would have believed he was in a scoring position, you know, toward the end of the last year. He does now. And so, so yes, we can see

continued growth in him and he is ultra-competitive. So he's never satisfied, which is a nice attribute to have. So he, you know, every day it's for him, it's about finding another, another way to get better. And he, there's, as good as he is, there's massive growth potential with him. Yeah. Well, Don, great to see you. Great, great catching up. Always a fun conversation.

Thanks for doing this. You're welcome, guys. Have a great day. Continued success. Thanks for following the Sabres. We're, we're unofficially team Sabres over here. Good. It's good.

It's fun. It's a fun. team. It's fun to even listen. Like, I love hearing how you and Kevin are so much on the same page. You don't always see that. Like, you can just feel it. That seems very genuine. You're like unprompted, brought them out. It's just, it seems like such a positive situation right now. That's, that's fun to be. Yeah, no, I lucked out. I absolutely lucked out in this situation with having Kevin here. Yeah. It's been great. Awesome. Well, thanks, Don. Okay. See you guys.

That was a wonderful episode of deep thoughts with Don Bernado. Can we get about weekly? I, I panicked. You sent me a, you know, a, you know, a question prompt and our chat on Zoom that I didn't know was just a private. I didn't know you could even do a private. I thought it was for everybody to see. So I was like, Sean, what are you doing? But then I saw it was a private message to me. I just wanted to ask.

I just want, no, I was just saying, I sent that when he brought up young players who he wanted to expose like top competition. So I was like, that's the one. That's the one cousin. That was like, we got. That was more a note. That was a note for me. That's good.

We should do that. We're often. Sorry. Sorry, I'm sorry folks, listener, Inside Baseball and how Sean and I conduct an interview. He was great. He, you know, I think he was interim last time we talked to him and, and we bang the drop. Like, he develops young players.

They get better and you can hear why. Like, he's intentional on how he approaches it. He gives them an opportunity against top competition. He's weighing the big picture. I loved your question, Sean, about that. Like, that balance between winning tonight and building a program. If you're a Sabres fan, it's easy to be excited right now. That was good.

I'm just glad to get legit answers from him. Like, I think he's a guy that we've come to count on for that, right? Where you know that there are key in answers to every question. We hear them a lot. And I think you can, you can bet that, you know, you're not going to get that from him. And I think we got some good, some good, honest stuff from our buddy Donnie Mapewls. We didn't wear shirts. We didn't have shirts.

be coming up next the only good segment i believe sean likes to call it my favorite segment at the very least you'll be right back this is the only good segment on the show drop into the comment section inch the troll is rattles three click on the listen listen here's how you really do it you open up your athletic tab that's it tab is it tab you go to you go to a one of Bar, you run up a big tab on the athletic. Then you download the app. It's actually running up a big tab on the New York Times company now. Brother.

Those athletic tabs don't exist anymore. The company still exists, Sean. The athletic is a New York Times company, but it still exists. Whatever, boss. Just from the athletic. Is it not? You don't know. You get your fancy direct deposit in your

giant checking account, Sean. You don't know. You don't know who signed you check. I'm pretty sure it's the New York Times company because we are, we are employees of the New York Times and we will be greeted as such whenever we. Okay. It's a athletic. Okay. Okay. Carlos L. Sorry to hear you caught the vid, Craig. I just figured you were big timing. Sean. Both those things can be true, Carlos. I was not big timing anybody with a fever of 110 and it was delirious. Is that confirmed biomedical professional that you had a 110 fever? It was really bad.

Were you delirious? Yeah. No, no. I told you, though, I watched the Ken Burns Jazz documentary. That was great. Like, it was 20 hours. It's what got me through it. And drifting in and out of like Herbie Hancock music or whatever it was or John Coltrane.

Like, boy, I need some really good stuff. sleep. Let's see what, let's see what Ken Burns has been up to over the last 10 years or so. Like, I'm indebted to it. It was a great, it was educational. It was, I got really attached to the people involved. That's what he does. He spans over time and then by the, you know, by the time these, these, yeah. Yeah, like, that's like when I watched the baseball documentary when I was seven. By the end of it, I wanted Buck O'Neill, it'll be my, my grandpa or whatever. That's right. That's right. Same deal. Max's gandal is the best. I hope he found his way into podcasts. I can't listen to him to him

talk all day. Well, good news for you, Mac. I think Keith's going to be doing a lot of media stuff moving forward. I know he's a regular on a host of podcast. So he's really good. If you need more Keithy handle in your life, you're about to get it. I like that the third out of the gauntlet became a debate in the comments. Oh my God. It turned into a debate on the on the, the puck soup discord. I don't know how much we can say. We can or should say about that. But Gonlet versus gantlet absolutely turn into an argument there as well. Part of that was my fault because I misspoke and used the wrong version of it in my explanation. So you created a debate that's that.

I hope, um, so, all right, I'm going to let that go. You throw down a gauntlet. What was your mistake? You throw down a gauntlet. You run through a gantlet. I don't use words like that anyways, because I'm dumb. You know what the note should have been like, hey, this is a cliche. don't put it in your copy.

That is almost always, that is what I think when I see those clarifications from Monica where it's like, or if you like, people always like, you know, if you use the word myriad, you just say they had myriad chances versus a myriad of chances. Don't ever say myriad. Never, in any form. If you are, if you, there's certain things that if you're writing long, you just do a control, a control F for and delete them. And myriad is one of those words.

Doesn't make you sound smart. The best, some of the best writing advice ever got was if you don't say the word when you're talking to your friends, don't write it in a story. I got that, I got that advice too. I think I gave it to you. Probably. Honestly. I was like, hey, Sean, you and I talk a lot and you've never said that to me. So don't use it in your copy.

Or you might have said that to me. You're my editor at well. Probably. Just flip, flop, back and forth. I spent the first like five years of my career, like obsessively trying to write the way that I talk. And that was a big part of it. to try to like synthesize the way that I speak and the way that I tweet and the way that I write. I was, I was a freak about it.

And Myriad was definitely one of those things. And I'm sure, I'm sure, I'm sure that somebody's going to Google my name in Myriad and find something I wrote for sport folks. For sporting news in 2011 or whatever when I, when I used it. But I don't think, I don't think I've ever, I've ever used it. That in puns. I don't make puns in my real life. I don't make puns in my writing. Same.

I remove them from headlines if at all possible. What I wish I could do, and I'm not great at as analogies. I love great analogies, but I can't come up with them. It's a risk because, and it's a crutch. People love using analogies and people love using shitty analogies. So, and they love using them way high up in Leeds. So if you're talking about like, the seam is tougher than a three-day-old pork chop or whatever. Right.

Cool. This next question comes from Adam P. Yeah. Adam P writes, would you rather be? And then I think he accidentally hits Enter. And then his next comment is, you know, I had more of this question to type and then accidentally hit Enter. I'm just going to leave it as is. There's been another episode of existentialism with Adam P.

Would you rather be or would you rather have been? That's deep. you can't there's no being if you haven't been remember that remember i said that whenever i die let's go right on the gravestone Tyler ram I have a question for you who is the patron saint of longevity the Russo army would like would now like an interview with the patron saint of longevity the patron saint of longevity Keith Handel Phil Kessel longevity if longevity it could just be Rousseau if we talk about how long his posts are. Rousseau, who's been covering the league for like 40 years because he started as a 16 year old.

Yeah. Like that's that's the what the, he'll be like, oh, I remember covering this person for the Florida, when I was covering the Florida Panthers back in 1992. I finally, I finally asked him like, he's been doing it longer than you think. Last month or whenever we, like, we were together and I asked him. basically like how the fuck because it's tough because he's not like Mike's not an old he's not an old guy but he's also talking about covering stuff that happened 30 years ago yeah it's because he did he was covering the panthers when he was in college he basically put school on pause to cover that

team yeah that's one of those like you you can't repeat it as a like when people I'm sure ask him how do I how do I get your career Mike Russo you can't be like cover a major professional for a major newspaper when you're 13. That's the path in. I can't imagine, I could barely even keep myself alive when I was 20 years old, let alone cover a, you know,

an Eastern Conference champion or whatever, whatever Mike was doing at that point. So there's a question, I'm going to paraphrase it because I don't want to like get it. I think it's an interesting question, but I don't want to get into teams we cover or not cover because that's, you know, it can be a wound that I don't want to,

open up on this show. But the question, the gist of the question is, do you think teams would prefer to have independent coverage of their team or only like league or team reporters covering their team, Sean? I know the answer to this. Yeah, it's Michael D. It's a good question. I'm with you on that.

I honestly was leaving that to you because I wasn't, I'm not going to open that can of worms because that ain't my job. But the question is, do teams want to come? control from Michael D. Do teams want to control the narrative so badly that they prefer, you know, the environment where the only people covering the team or team employees? The answer is yes, they do. They would much rather have only team employees in, and we'll say eight times out. I disagree with this, Sean. Eight times, eight times out of ten. The, I think teams, I think the league might, I think teams want an independent. Here's, here's, here's the way I'll put it. And here,

and here's the way I'll couch it. This is so hard because there's so much I cannot say here. Uh-huh. Every team, if you ask them honestly, and they answered honestly, right now. And you said, would you rather just have your... The Pittsburgh Penguins, the Toronto Maple Leafs, would you rather have state media shit surrounding this team and have no independent people involved with it? They would say yes.

Yeah. But if you were to go to a team where that was the case in the only... you know media surrounding the team was team employees or whatever they would say no because seeing that in action is a lot different than is a lot different is a lot different is a lot different than thinking about it in theory so it's it and i don't mean that to be a cop out but i that is a grass is always greener thing where teams that have a ton of independent media you know the buzzard circling they would they would rather of course they would rather kick kick all of us out and just do things themselves. But when push comes a shove and the teams where that has happened,

I think they are generally not in favor of it. I would say the other thing is I know teams, like you think, oh, I only want positive coverage of my team. I know there seems like get frustrated. They're like, I need somebody to rip into this team. That's not me. Like I've had conversations with coaches or GMs. And it's just like, this team, because there's not a drumbeat of negativity, that can be overwhelming at times, but if it's only the team reporter, now these players, they're only getting criticized by the coach and they're tired of hearing from that. You know what I mean? Totally. There is a level, like, I've had it's like, hey, this team needs to get torn into.

Like, where's the, where's the column ripping this player for, and they, you know, so they, I don't know, like, does the, does management or the team president want that? Probably not. Does the coach want sometimes a little bit of. pressure and squeeze from the media, apps 1,000%. And if you are, by the way, if you are a team employee and you want me to

rip anybody specifically on your team or how many, you know, dirty work I can do for you, just reach out, my DMs are open. I will do whatever you told me to do. Wow. Might have to pay me a little bit more.

Chris? Yeah. I might have to or the team? No, the team. I'm offering kickbacks from, from offering to accept kickbacks from team for coverage. This is wrought with as they,

as they, as they, as they, as they wish it to be. Chris Jay says, I'm a month into this and I still have not gotten into the new opening. It's so cheesy and lame. Couldn't they have gotten something better?

Just an early season gripe from Chris Jay. We picked it. It's not, they, there's nobody. They said, hey, Craig and Sean,

here's some options. What do you like? And I'm like, I like the one that sounds like it's from a Disney cartoon in the 50s. Yeah, where it's being played in a forest with chirping birds and, you know, rabbits who speak. I'm going to read this next one too. I'm going to roll in it in the compliments me.

I love this. Nick Kay, another great one from the peerless Craig Guston's and his fun size sidekick Sean Gentile. Bullshit. Oh, Sean Gentle. I didn't even see that. That's a Twitter reference. Is it Sam Gentle? Sam Gentle.

Did we talk about that last week? specifically no we didn't not not for public consumption okay we can that's there's a there's a back there's a backstory there I don't didn't mean you talk on the phone about that I don't

I don't even remember anymore we slacked about it I'll just say that it's a pot like I got a very weird podcast a very off podcast appearance request and it is professionally done and on a show that a bunch of people people you know have heard of and it was very funny. So that's what this guy is referencing here.

It's what Nick Kay is referencing here. Also, I'm taller than Craig. Moving on. You keep claiming that. I ain't what is? I'm aware of how tall I am. I'm not going to sit here and say that I'm taller than Jesse Granger or Max or whatever because I'm not. Taller than you.

You more of like a pint size. sidekid. Lil Shawnee. It's scrappy do. It's a Scooby-Doo Scrappy-Dew situation. I would also say to the person on Twitter who claimed that I should be paying for Sean's back massages because he pays the show on his back, I thought that was out of balance. Oh. I didn't like that.

I mean. It's not true. It's not true to that. We have a great health plan here. I have a lot of payback that I have to do if you're crazy. I think I owe him. I owe him a few. I like this one from Corey E.

Another great week boys. He said good. I upgraded it to great. Another incredible week, Tuesday boys. Enjoyed Craig lighting a match to gasoline by saying Hachick ranks high 80s. Oh my God. I'm trying to figure out what's going on and then saying, no, never mind. None of that was true.

No, then the other flame to gasoline element there was like, Hachik said some crazy shit about. about Russian-born players. And that story might not have even been published yet. That might have been sitting in the queue and I was reading some stories to come. And I certainly hadn't seen it. So I read it later in that day and I was like, well, man, I got I got, I got hosed there. Yeah, I do not think Russian players should be banned from the NHL right now.

I do not agree with Dominic Hachek. It took you long enough to get that conclusion shot. I have broken my legendary silence on discrimination against, against Romano. Russian-born players. Should not happen. Do not agree with Dominic Khashik, but thank you for team me up there. S-O-B.

Steve N. writes, really enjoying the NHL-99 project so far. Yeah, what number are we on today? It's been really good. The stories are all been great. I've enjoyed it too.

It's just been fun. Every day you get a great long read that you wouldn't get otherwise. Is there any plans to publish the entire project as a physical book, like an actual, you turn the pages? This is such a great project that there would be a lot of demand for a coffee table type book in addition to the daily articles.

Steve N. Nothing I can share at this time. But here's what I would say about this. I would agree with you. Wouldn't that be a nice, nice physical thing to have in your hands and flip through and read Eric to Hatchik? I think as I motivate myself. Yeah. Anybody else?

Who else you're trying to read in there? Any names spring to mind? Mike Russo Rousseau Rousseau Army hear that Rousseau's Army I got it going I have three that I need to get working on

in the next Yeah go ahead In the next couple weeks here Anytime Sean I've got to have a conversation with you about those actually Turn them in If you have

Tim Graham Tim Graham's really good writer Really enjoyed Tim Graham's work I'm writing I'm writing on air I'm doing I'm doing Lindrosse That's the first one

Is he in the 80s No he's early he's or he's he's he's he's way down um you did you got that what wow that's a good one should i just say the ones that i have here yeah i think that's okay i have um i have lindras fedorov pronger wow in petersberg did you have first pick in the draft and got off those are like four of the best Let her off the draw. If I was not in retirement, Fedorov would have been the one I would do.

Cool, you can help me with this one. I'm not, no, I mean. Because I'm having some trouble getting hold of them. So is that? I'm not going to make any. I can help you with that. Yeah, you will. You have no choice.

I might be able to assist you there. Any other comments, Sean, you wanted to highlight before we? we wrap up? I don't think so. We're doing this before we actually record our Don Granado interview, so I'm assuming that we're entering our like minute 97 of the podcast. Oh, Don was great, wasn't he? Because Don was great.

I like going to be actually already done it. Love him. Oh, that was so, it was funny when he made that joke about you, talked about the team. Rasmus Dahlene, huh? Wow. So good. Rob Pizzo, Mike Russo, and Jesse Granger.

welcome Steve and Wino hockey writer Oh baby Oh baby Steve and Wino who wrote Odd Man In It's about you know emergency goalies

This is bullshit Because we wanted We wanted Wino on the show And you would have thought My longstanding relationship With Steve would have Would have Would have

But no That's okay I know Why did the Wednesday show get Wino Wino We've been kind of an undercover Canadian this whole time anyways. He worked for the Canadian press. That's like overcover.

Yeah. I mean, come on. He's, yeah, so good, he can go on that show. He doesn't need to come on the American show. Also, even better, Hillary Knight joins Haley and Sean for the athletic hockey show on Friday. Boy, that would have been a good one for the American show, greatest American generation. How about you? How about you leave that one on touch?

Imagine, imagine. Like, what could the reason be? Man, that was a real. Great one for the American show. It was really good. It was really good. I don't know if, I don't know if this is actually going to stay in the finished product or not,

but I do need to say it here. We talked to Hillary for probably about 45 minutes. She was awesome. And at one point, Haley had window washers directly behind her, like washing the windows on the outside of her, on the outside of her apartment. And Haley didn't realize it until probably a half hour in.

Me and Hillary were both trying to not say anything. And Haley turned around and saw the window washers and got so scared that she like almost fell out of her chair. It was great. Wow. Is that going to be on the athletic hockey show YouTube channel? We have the video. We have the video clip.

That'll be making the rounds. But man, it's his, she was just a blast to talk to. Talk to her about future of the women's pro league and just. whatever her life man it was a it was a very very chill conversation with her one of the one of my favorite assignments I ever did um was going to Florida behind the scenes with darrell Balfreya skills he's a skills yeah legendary skills guru yeah he had uh he put together a thing for the kind of the best women in the world and the best men's players in the world where they could just learn from each other and somehow I was just allowed to be a part of it and they could learn for me if they

wanted I offered up my insight to how they played uh and And then, you know, so they're on the ice all day and then they'd go and grab food and then at night just watch clips of each other and just say, okay, what do you do? Like Hillary, what were you doing? And it's like Austin Matthews asking, you know, Hillary Knight questions. And it was pretty, pretty cool. That's awesome. Good part of the interview was we didn't talk about anything like that. We don't need to talk about the men.

Well, if I had been invited, I would have probably brought it up and I'd have been like, hey, Hillary, remember that one time? How about you zip it? Zip it. I mean, zip it. I feel like I've got good questions for her tonight. Big news about next week's American show, Max Baltman, stepping in for me. So I'm going to get COVID again, I think.

Craig Bolsonaro? Yes. A lot of bounceback cases. That's what I was actually reading about that in the New York Times. Just no sold a Bolsonaro joke? I don't even know what that is. The president, the outstant. going dictatorial president of

Brazil who's gotten COVID a dozen times. It's very funny. Good joke. That was really funny. People are going to like it, I'm telling you. People loved it, I heard. No sold. So Max is coming in because in this case, I am big timing the show. I just said, who has time for this every single week?

Also, don't forget to subscribe to the athletic hockey show on YouTube. as we mentioned, it's, if you want to see Sean and I, super weird. For some reason. That's very strange. I think that, I think that chunk this week, thank God, is going to be, you're not involved at all and I am involved minimally.

It's Hillary, it's Hillary and Haley talking about a lot of stuff. So that'll be, that'll be good. Way better. It's what I'm still getting used to. That's a different audience over there on YouTube. They're much smarter and much more interesting than either of us.

Oh, Hilary. Yes. Also, dear listener, you can subscribe to the Athletic Audio Plus on Apple Podcasts to get all the bonus content from our entire network. You start, here's how it works. You start with a 30-day free trial, then just 99 cents a month after that. Oh, what a deal. And this offer still stands annual subscriptions to the athletic for just $1 a month

for six months when you go to the athletic. I go to WWW. theathletic.com slash hockey show. You forgot the HTTP colon slash. I was reading a book and there was like references to like, you know, they're like, oh, if you want to see this on the web. And the URL was six trillion things. It was like, it was in a book.

Like, what are you going to do? Type it. Type it out. Was it like underline too? It was like a random password generator times a thousand. And I'm like, make this. And they do this over and over. again. I was like make a short URL for people that might actually want to look this up on the internet.

It's not, it's not you, not you, but. I wouldn't want to look it up. If you are going to use a hashtag, of course, and referencing Sean carrying the show on his back, it's three Z's. That's, Tuesday, boys, three Zs. I mean, they know the first part of it. Goodbye. Enjoy Max and two next week without me. I will. It's cooler than you are. He's really cool. He'd taller.

Taller than both of us. Taller than both of us. That's a fat.