The Athletic Hockey Show - Eugene Melnyk story fallout, Tampa Bay Lightning playing possum?, Vladimir Tarasenko’s bounce back season for the St. Louis Blues, Multiple Choice Madness, and more

Episode Date: April 18, 2022

First, Ian and Hailey discuss the reaction to the Eugene Melnyk piece Ian, Katie Strang, and Dan Robson published last week in The Athletic, as well as some of the behind the scenes details about how much work went into writing it, whether we’d rather see a Conor McDavid vs. Jack Eichel first round playoff matchup or for the Vegas Golden Knights to miss the playoffs entirely, the St. Louis Blues going on an under-the-radar hot streak as of late, buoyed by the strong play of Vladimir Tarasenko, and more.Then, The Athletic’s own Joe Smith joins the show to talk about the recent struggles for the two-time defending Stanley Cup champion Tampa Bay Lightning, if the Bolts would be favored in a first round playoff matchup against the Toronto Maple Leafs, how trade deadline acquisition Nick Paul has fit in so far, and more.Plus, to close things out, Ian and Hailey play a couple of rounds of Multiple Choice Madness, including which top-25 scorer in the NHL hasn’t gotten enough buzz this season and which team needs to win the NHL Draft lottery the most.And, right now, you can get a 6 month subscription to The Athletic for just $1 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back, everybody, to your Monday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show, as always. It's your usual Monday hosts in the usual Monday chairs. Ian Medes-Haley-Salvian with you for the next hour or so coming up. We're going to have a little fun with a conversation with Joe Smith. Of course, he covers the two-time defending Stanley Cup champion Tampa Bay Lightning. We'll talk about their mindset heading into the playoffs, a potential first round date with Toronto, where they might like to fit in, who's a good match-up, all of that coming up with Joe Smith.

We're going to talk about some playoff races. It's not really a race in the east. The eight teams are set in the West, though. Boy, L.A. and Vegas is going to be a lot of fun the last couple of weeks of the season. Do we want to see McDavid and Eichael in round one? Do we want Vegas to miss the playoffs? St. Louis has been on a heater too. We should talk about that.

There's a lot to get to. Coming up, we'll do some Mullable Choice Madness as well, including who deserves to win the draft lottery the most this season. Arizona, Seattle, Detroit, somebody else. So we got to get to all of that coming up in this Monday edition of the Athletic Hockey show. We bring in Haley Salvean on this Monday. I got to just real quick ask you this off the top, Haley. Because I took some heat.

Well, we'll talk about the other heat I took on Twitter in a moment. I took some heat for saying that I don't like ham at Easter. I feel like ham is overrated. No. Overrated. I'm a ham. I like ham at Easter. My mom, I think it depends how you make it.

Like, if it's just like a store-bought honey ham and you're not doing anything to it, yeah, it's like, it could just taste like sliced deli meat. But my mom does, like, a really good glaze. Like, her ham is really good. She'll do, like, orange. I don't know. I don't know how to describe it. My mom's, so we did, I didn't even really realize this weekend was Easter because on

trade deadline day, I flew home a day early before Trade Center because I was in Toronto. So I went home to see my parents. And we did Easter a month ago. So my mom made like a nice Easter dinner and she got my chocolate bunny because obviously the grocery store is getting ready for Easter a month in advance. So we did Easter then and we had a ham and it was good. I don't know. I like ham.

My parents have never done like lamb or roast beef or anything on Easter. It's always been a ham in Turkey on Thanksgiving. Yeah, I took some heat. for it I put ham at like 400th on my rankings and this guy wrote back he said couldn't agree with you more he said ham at easter it's the equivalent of Keith Yandel it's just there oh and it's been around for so long that it's the go-to for everybody no it's the key he said it's the Keith Yandel of of meals it's just it's just there not anymore because Keith Yandel didn't play that one game good point good all right hey that's not the only man anymore yeah exactly

Um, that's not the only heat I took. Look, and I, I, I think people who have followed my career long enough and certainly listen to this podcast, no, if, if nothing else, I try to be accountable or at least transparent. And so when people are, are unhappy with my work or critical of my work, I try and engage them in a, in a, in a, uh, professional manner, I don't, I try really hard not to speak down to people because, um, I think a lot of people don't quite understand our jobs. And, and so instead of barking at them about, you don't understand. journalism. Like, it's better to have a conversation that's a little bit more nuanced and friendly. And so, look, there were a lot of people who in the course of the weekend were like,

you know, the piece that you and Katie Strang and Dan Robson did while was certainly newsworthy, the timing was poor. And I, like, I want people to understand that we, we grappled with that. Like, please don't think that we were just like, ah, all right, here we're rubbing our hands. Like, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, we're was never the case. But I think we felt comfortable, and we did pivot a little bit. Like, after he died, we pivoted and, and anybody wants to hear our full breakdown of why and how we put this together. Dan Robson, Katie Strang and I did a roundtable conversation with Sean Gentile and Craig Custins last week that dropped on the Thursday show. And I think we did a pretty good job

in explaining it. But I think what I want to say is I, like, we were never wait, like, we weren't waiting for this man to pass away to drop this story. I hope that nobody thinks that that was the case. We were always intending to run a story, but we can only run a story when we're journalistically comfortable with the information that we have. And as it pertains to certain elements of that story, some of that didn't come into our hands until after he died. And, you know, we obviously had to pivot and make a decision, but I believe this is my thought, Haley. When you're writing an obituary, which we believe that that's essentially what that ended up becoming, your job is to A, tell the truth, and B, give the full picture of somebody's legacy.

Like, if you want a true obituary, that's what it is. And I think that there were a number of people who were truly disappointed that the coverage around his legacy in the beginning didn't touch on any of these things. Because he did some irreparable damage to some people professionally and personally. and they didn't feel that their voices were adequately reflected. And so when they came around to us and we had that conversation, look, we waited 17 days. And I'm willing to hear people that say that that's too soon. I think it was too late. To be honest with you, I think that in an ideal world, we would be able to tell that story five months ago.

But journalistically, I don't think that we were at that point because people were afraid to share. People were afraid of litigation. We, at the athletic, I want to say, I don't ever feel like I have. I was threatened or worried about litigation because if the truth is the ultimate protector. Like if you can if you can prove that everything that you have is true, then you're in a great spot as a journalist. But you can't report on hearsay and conjecture. You can't be like, well, I heard he was this or that.

Great. We all heard that. Hearing something and tangibly being able to defend it journalistically are two separate things. Well, that's the difference with some of the. criticism you were getting was this is all unnamed sources. No, no, no, it's different. This isn't one person saying, hey, I heard this happened. This was not secondhand hearsay sourcing for you guys. It was months and months of work to get actual proof for not just journalistic reasons, but obviously legal reasons too. You can back up every single piece of information in an airtight story. That's not just

Lucy Goosey secondhand sourcing. If it was, there'd probably be a lot more stuff in that story. If you could just take everything that somebody ever told you that they heard happened, that story would be 10,000, 20,000 words long, but you didn't do that. And that's kind of, that was one of the criticisms I saw was, it's all on name sources. No, it's a little bit deeper than that. You know what? You know what?

I'm actually going to tell a story right now that I hope will illustrate the challenges we had in putting this together, okay? And this is one I didn't tell on the roundtable, but I'll tell it to you in our audience here. And I think it greatly illustrates the absurdity of what we were dealing with. So, you know, at some point in the fall of last year, you know, you're chasing, like you said, we all heard stories and rumors about what was going on under the hood.

But to actually ascertain, like, tangible evidence was a challenge because people were afraid to speak. So somebody tells me a story that, you know, at one point they heard Eugene Melnick paid somebody back in pennies. He was so angry with this, this partner that he paid them back in pennies. And I thought, okay, well, that's a great anecdote and story that might speak to his kind of, you know, a petty side or whatever. Okay, one person tells me this. I'm going to need about five or six on a story of that magnitude to be able to corroborate that this happened. So now I'm phoning people and they're like, you know, there's 10 seconds of pause.

Are you serious? I'm like, yeah, I'm serious. Listen, somebody told me that this is the case. So we're chasing. And listen, I can tell you in doing my research, I do not believe that happened. But there's somebody out there that does believe that it happened. And maybe it did. But I can tell you that journalistically and legally and ethically, I don't feel comfortable.

putting that out there because and everybody's got some crazy story. Well, guess what? I think only 20% of them might be true. Right. But this is the problem that you have is that you're running into a just stuff is so crazy that you're like, this is too crazy not to be true. So I have to chase it down. And then you chase it down and you're like, you again, I want people to understand that the

anecdotes that we got are in some cases. I had seven or eight people confirm it, and in every case was at least multiply sourced. Okay? And so it would be irresponsible for the people saying, like, we all heard about it. Yeah, great. I heard about it too.

Haley, you heard about this stuff when you were on the beat in 2019, 2020. Well, hearing about stuff, I have enough and you have enough. I've been around you long enough, and I've been with the athletic long enough to know, we're not in the game of just tossing stuff out there like, I heard this, I heard that. That doesn't do anybody any good. Otherwise, that story would have been done five months ago.

Ten months ago, five years ago. And I just, you know, I just think that the story needed to be told. And I do wish that we had enough stuff five months ago. But I don't want people to think that we were sitting on that. I think the thing that really disappointed me, Haley, was there was people that thought we, because we had worked on this story for a while, that it was sitting waiting

until he passed away. I think Katie said on the podcast we were 95% done. I think that's an accurate number. 95 feels about right. And we're willing to, and again, we're having this conversation

and we're trying to be transparent and just like we were in the round table. But I just want to ask you real quick and there's a myriad of topics here to get to around the league. But because you kind of covered this team. I'm curious, like, as you hit to the bottom of that story,

what were the things that you were like, that you, you know, did you have any takeaways? Or were you kind of like, I covered this team and, and I kind of, that's kind of the story I thought. Yeah, I think it was a bit of that, to be honest. I think I read the story and this isn't, and I don't even mean this as a criticism to you guys.

I think, because I saw a lot of comments from fans saying, like, this was such a cathartic read. You know, fans were reading this. And I think a lot of people kind of knew on a surface level things about the way that the organization was working and then actually reading it. They were like, yeah, okay, we've got a little bit more on this. So I think when I hit the bottom, I don't think I came away from the story saying I learned anything different. And that's not a criticism to you guys. that's just this is what people knew, honestly, because there are stories out there all the time. You talk to people in the organization or you talk to people in the community who had been in

Ottawa far, far longer than I was. I think I took a lot of heat when I first started on the beat because I wasn't critical enough of the ownership. I think I took a ton of heat because I, in a story, I remember this and fans were so mad at me that I had the audacity. to simply call Eugene Melnick complicated. They were mad that I didn't use like a stronger tone or I didn't say enough bad about him. They're like, what do you mean complicated? What do you mean complicated? This is not complicated. Like he did all this stuff to us. And you have the audacity to call him complicated. And I remember reading that. And I was like, what else am I supposed to say without writing a thesis about this, this man's legacy and his time is ownership? And I think at the end of

The column or the story you guys wrote, I think the overarching takeaway is that this was a complicated man. Yes. The story ends with somebody who he tried to put in jail saying, I love that man. This is a complicated person that we're talking about, right? It's the right adjective. All human beings are complicated. And I think some of them tend to straddle the extremes a little bit more than the rest. And I think that that's what you.

Eugene Malnick was. He was the guy who Haley simultaneously saved this franchise and alienated the fan base. And it's a very hard thing to accomplish in sports to save a team and ultimately kind of help in their demise. And it's, I think it's the perfect anecdote to describe he's a human being. And he did. And as we pointed out in that story, he did some wonderful things for people. and he did some awful things to people. And I think he created the legacy. I didn't create the legacy. Katie didn't create the legacy.

Dan didn't create the legacy. He created it. We just tried to reflect that. But I want to make this clear. I understand the criticism of the timing. I hope people don't think that, oh man, Ian Mendez is heartless and soulless. They didn't think twice. I had sleepless nights about this.

There was no good time, though, Ian, because it's either too soon or it's too late and you're now opening up old wounds. There is no good time for a story like that, especially when a person is passed. And especially when they're alive and you do have the, not the fear, because I don't think you guys were afraid to do this. No. But you know that there's the threat of litigation. And those are some of the things, too, that I don't know if people, and I don't want to, this to sound like we're talking down again, but it's like, I don't think people, and I'm sure they do. People in the market, obviously know in the Ottawa market, the threat of litigation is a real thing. I had worked on a story for a really, really long time when I was on the beat and the story disappeared for very obvious reason. You know, we had our least. team involved and they said, I think we need to just scrap this because it's not worth it. And that's a frustrating thing. There are legitimate hoops and barriers to covering certain

things in that marketplace, which either completely scraps a story that you've been working on for however long, or it pushes the story to five, six months down the road to a point where you guys were at, which was, okay, we either have to post this immediately after. he's passed 17 days after he's passed or we wait a couple more months. And that's just the reality of covering things in that kind of situation where litigation is a legitimate threat. And like, it's a reality that's more or less going to happen regardless of what you put in print. You just have to be prepared for that. So I will say one of the takeaways that I had after two was, as I was reading through the story was not just what had happened.

but the fact that it had been allowed to happen for a long time in that market, I thought about the people that those things had happened to who stayed in those jobs because they were passionate about the Ottawa senators, passionate about hockey, passionate about doing a good job. There are some really passionate, creative, and intelligent people who work for the Ottawa senators who weren't allowed to do everything that they creatively or intellectually wanted to. with that organization for reasons you guys laid out. Those people, you know, I give them a lot of credit,

but I just feel for them for the fact that that happened for such a long time. Like there were, in one of the instances, one of the women who worked for the team went to the league and said, this just happened. And it doesn't seem like anything reflectively happened to the sense. So I think about the fact that that was allowed to happen for as long as it did. I think about, you know, people who enabled and allowed that kind of behavior, I think that's an element to this story that has been a little bit overlooked

since the immediate aftermath has either been rage at you guys or reflecting on the actual actions. But I look at, like, when you zoom out, like, there were people who allowed that to happen in this marketplace when it was some of these elements were well known. And they continued for a really long time. So I think about that a lot too. Obviously, I spent time in Ottawa. I didn't stay in Ottawa for very long for reasons. And I just feel for all the people who worked there. And I don't know. I just, I read the story and thought for all the people who work for that team who were treated it that way and I just think about how that was allowed to happen. But again, I think that whole story just showed the complexity of Eugene Melnick because again, it ended on a note of someone saying

I loved that man so much. So he did things, but he was also a dad. He was also a friend. I feel for his daughters, they're younger than I am. I think that's, you know, really, it's not, you don't wish that on anybody. You don't wish loss on your worst enemies. So I feel for, his family, but, you know, I know the hoops that you guys had to go through to get that stuff out and those things happened, like, actually, like truthfully happened. So that's not your fault that you're reporting things that he did. No, no. And, you know, I think there's an opportunity now for everybody involved. The front office, the league, media, everybody who's been around this sphere to hit the reset button to recalibrate, but to everybody should look in the

mirror. And that includes me. Listen, I'm more than willing to say, I wish I had been able to do this earlier so that people didn't have to work in a toxic environment. I couldn't get it to that place. I couldn't get it to that place where it needed to go. But I'm willing to say, this will damn well never happen on my watch again. And I'm embarrassed that this happened on my watch. And I'm willing to say that it'll never happen on my watch again. And what I'd like to hear is for the National Hockey League to say, not on my watch. What I'd like to hear is from the organization to say, not on my watch.

But I need to take some of it too because it happened on my watch. And I tried to call it out and it didn't quite reach the right places. you know, and again, my means of being able to do that was journalistically. And I couldn't do it. But that's a function of the institutional barriers that were put up to prevent that type of reporting from happening. It's a complex situation. But I look back and I think I should have tried, like, I tried hard. I guess I could have tried harder.

And I get it. It's not your fault, Ian. You can't blame yourself, especially like when you're talking about things on your watch that happened to the media, you weren't part of the PHWA at that time. You weren't the chair. No. You weren't the one who was supposed to protect the journalists who were mistreated in that market.

That wasn't your job until it became your job. Yeah. No, that's, it's fair, but. But like, that's not on you. No, but I think sometimes in the media, we do a really good job of pointing the finger at other people and not being accountable. I just want to be accountable to the people of this city, to the fans of this city and to the people who work there.

I should have, I saw, I heard about this stuff. I just couldn't quite put it all together. Yeah. And, and. No, but, but maybe I, maybe I, and again, all I can say is, I'm going to be better moving forward. I don't think anybody should have to work in a toxic environment. and if I hear about it, I should do more.

And I think what I'm hoping is for everybody to have a fresh start. I guess my point, too, is in all this, as we wrap this up, I can't demand that the organization take a fresh approach without me doing the same thing, if that makes sense. Like, I think all of us need to just take a fresh. Don't just, I think we're really good at point of the finger. I hope this just allows everyone to turn the page, right? turn the page and start fresh.

You know, like we said, there's good people in that organization, whether it's in the front office, whether it's on the coaching staff, players, marketing, game day operation. There's good people and they should be allowed to turn the page on all this and just get to do their jobs the way that they can, which is well. Like there's good people who work there who are talented and smart. Turn the page and do what you can. and which is, I don't know, do your jobs well.

Not that they weren't always doing that before, but we heard some stories about how it was, there was like a culture of fear there. Go to work without being afraid that something you do is going to get you in trouble. Go to work and be creative and try new things. Bring some excitement and creativity back and just turn the page on all this.

I think that's kind of the next step, really. All right, Haley, wouldn't mind just hitting on a couple of topics around the league, only two weeks to go in the regular season. The Eastern Conference, all the playoff slots are set, like the eight teams are set. Not the case in the West. And we're going to have a great battle down the stretch. And I, boy, this L.A. Vegas race is compelling to me because I'm of two minds and I keep,

I keep going back and forth. So help me out here. There's part of me, Haley, that wants to see Vegas make it and we get the McDavid-Ikel matchup in round one. Vegas and Edmonton. It's a two-three matchup. So there's part of me that's like, man, I want McDavid-Ikel. Then there's the other part of me that's like,

I kind of want Vegas to miss because they've just had, they've known nothing but success. I feel like their fan base needs to just taste a little bit of, you know, adversity. How should I feel here? How should I feel about Vegas, L.A., and that first round playoff spot, or that that playoff spot in the West?

I think that it's kind of a win-win situation. Like you either are going to get, you know, you're either going to get the Vegas Golden Knights winning, like making it into the playoffs. And then you get to watch a first round series between them and the Oilers. So you get the Eichel versus McDavid. You get the whole narrative of are the Oilers going to beat them in the first round? Are they going to lose in the first round again? Is Vegas going to get hot in the playoffs and do their thing?

Because when they're healthy, they are a contender. That's a really deep and dangerous hockey team. So you get that element. But then if they blow it and they don't make the playoffs, it's really funny. Exactly. I think it's a win-win situation. I already said last week that I would like to see them as the playoffs. They came in and beat Calgary the other day.

Calgary looked terrible. But Vegas looked really good. Michael has like just a ridiculous shot. Like his goal, you watch it and you're like, not a lot of guys can shoot the puck like that. Like you either got it or you don't and he certainly does. And I think that like Vegas matches up really well against almost anybody when they're healthy. And so I think they would give Edmonton some difficulties because they scored, I think, five goals at five on five against the flames. Maybe it was four. I think two were on the power play. Four goals at five on five. Like, that's a good five on five team,

again, when they're healthy and if they can stay healthy. So I think you get the narrative of the Oilers in the first round again, what's going to happen there. But honestly, like I, I think it would be funnier if they missed the playoffs. Yeah. Oh, no, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, like you said, I'm going to try to embrace the win-win. One other thing I want to talk about, I feel like the St. Louis blues very quietly, or on a heater here. 9-0-0-1. one in their last 10. And the guy I want to focus on for a second, this is one of the most fascinating stories of the year to me that I don't think

we've done enough, spent enough time talking about. That's Vlad Teresenko. Remember, this guy wanted out of St. Louis. And it felt like a lot of teams could have had Vlad Teresenko. And then they didn't trade him. And now he's putting up more than a point of game. He's back to being a 30, 35 goal guy. Like, boy, if I'm another team in the NHL,

do you think they're looking, there's some teams that are like, damn, we should have, we should have taken a run at Vlad Tarasenko because he's back to being what he was and he's a key cog for that team in St. Louis. Yeah, I think that's always the concern that teams, or that's like what teams have to weigh when they're looking at players like that,

is he actually going to return to that and what's he worth? And I think that's something for the St. Louis Blues too. I'm sure the Blues were, like, they weren't going to accept an offer for pennies on the, dollar for Teresanko last summer just because he'd been injured and hadn't been playing well. They wanted an offer based on what he had been and what he could be, which is what we're seeing

this season. And I highly doubt that offers based on how the blues value Teresanko were kind of there. Like this was the same issue with the Sam Bennett stuff. You know, I think the flames wanted to trade Sam Bennett for what he could be and what he was, which is the highest draft pick that the organization's ever had, but he hadn't played like that. So I think there's always that issue of finding a general manager, finding a team that can agree on value for a player like that who was injured

and wasn't playing that great. So a GM would have looked really freaking smart if they could have got Teresanko in the summer for pennies on the dollar, but I don't think the St. Louis Blues would have traded him for pennies on the dollar. So that's always kind of the thing. like, was this even possible based on the perceived market value of Teresanko? I'm not sure. I think if there was, he probably would have been moved.

But I don't think the blues felt they needed to trade him for that. And it's smart that they didn't because look what they have. I think the blues are interesting. I think they're like almost underrated in a sense. I don't really know if they get a ton of talk as a Western conference contender. I think Minnesota gets a lot of that. The flames are getting a lot of that. Vegas is getting a lot of chatter as they've gotten healthy and they're playing well.

Obviously, Colorado is the team to beat in the Western Conference. I think a Blues Minnesota series is going to be incredible. And I think the blues are more battle tested. Like, I think the wild are great. I think both teams have depth. And this is maybe it's just Daryl Sutter seeping in, but Daryl was talking about the blues when they were playing against the flames, I guess. earlier this month, the Blues were in town and then they beat Calgary. And Darrell was talking about like, that's a battle tested team.

They've won playoff games. They've won rounds. They've won a cup in the last five, six years, right? Like, that's a team who can get it done. They can play heavy hockey. They know how to play in the playoffs. So I do like the Blues. I think that's a team.

As I just said, they know how to do it when it matters most. I like Minnesota as well. I just think that's going to be, I think that's the most likely matchup there. It's almost impossible. It's impossible that they, yeah, it's almost impossible that it won't be

because I think right now it's going to be either Colorado, Dallas, Calgary, Nashville. Then it'll be Edmonton slash LA Vegas. And then Minnesota, St. Louis. And I think that's going to be a hell of a series. Like those teams are,

I think more likely than not going to I think do a lot of damage to each other in that first round. Like that's going to be, that's going to be really fun, I think. The first round is my favorite part of the playoffs, honestly. Oh, yeah.

And, and, what I love about St. Louis Mini is, if you had to tell me, like, right now, you got to pick one series in the first round

that you're pretty sure is going to go seven games. I might be inclined to say Minnesota, St. Louis, seven games. And then it's like, what do they look like in the second round after something like that, you know? Are they going to address?

Oh, completely destroy each other. And then can they kind of recuperate in time for the next round? All right, Haley. Time for us to connect with our guest this week, who as I mentioned off the top, Joe Smith does a great job covering the Tampa Bay Lightning, the two-time defending Stanley Cup champion Tampa Bay Lightning for us.

With the athletic, we bring them into the Monday podcast. Joe, how are you on this Monday? Doing well, how are you guys doing? Hey, happy Easter. Yeah, happy Easter to you. Hey, by the way, I said that ham was super duper overrated as like an Easter meal. Haley disagreed with me. Where do you come down on ham with Easter meals?

Is it warm ham or cold ham? Like warm. It's not like sandwich ham, Joe. Not cold cuts here, okay? Not Oscar Meyer, no. I'm a big fan of ham actually. But I know turkey is like a big thing for like Thanksgiving, but we also have ham on Thanksgiving as well. Easter. My wife usually does a brunch at our house. We have like, like an egg bake thing with some

sausage. And then she mixes bunny cake that's like chocolate with all the different kind of frosting. It looks like a bunny actually itself. So, but yeah, ham. I would wouldn't mind ham on Easter either. So especially when you don't have like, you know, meat for like the whole time of lunch or whatever like that, you know, to have it on Easter kind of thing. So my mom made a cake shaped like a bunny. Like she made a carrot cake. But it wasn't. it like just the bunny head, you know, the like with just like the circle cake with the two ears. Like she made a cake that like legitimately looked like a rabbit like laying down. Like full bodies.

Like the full body of a rabbit. Like it took her forever. It was, I don't know. It was a small rabbit. It was to scale if you laid out like a small bunny. And it was really funny. It took her forever to make. And it had like the legs and a head, the body.

And then she put like she just went over the top. Like she put the bunny on like. green coconut shavings to look like grass and there was like jelly beans and it had eyes and I don't know it was really funny she took her forever and there's a good cake it you know it's just you put all that effort to make a cake that looks like something for literally two people me and my dad and it doesn't look like a bunny anymore almost immediately you feel bad eating you like the guys's ears off, right? Yeah.

It's like I'm going to start with the head. All right. Haley, you're going to need to tweet a picture of that bunny out for our listeners, okay, so that we understand what you're talking about. And as much as we'd like to just talk cakes and pastries with Joe, we did bring them in to talk about the lightning. And it's funny, like, I wonder, like a lot of people are thinking, look, the lightning have hit a bit of a speed wobble last month or so.

Like, are they playing possum? Are they reserving their energy? Is there a reason for concern? Like what's some of the talk going on in Tampa around the defending champs here? Could it be like a big rope-a-dope kind of thing? Yeah. For game one, you know?

Like, you know, I think, you know, it's when you have went to Stanley Cups in a row, like you said, a really incredibly high standard. And I think people sometimes don't appreciate how hard it is to play that well for that long. And I think they went the first 56 games that went losing two in regulation back to back. So, you know, clearly I think there were some fans that were concerned,

especially in that month of March when they were struggling. I think they're one, nine and one, the last 11 games against playoff teams or teams that are in the playoff position at this point. So, you know, I would say that they're not obviously playing their best or other teams are obviously seem like playing better, Toronto's, Panthers kind of thing. But I think for them, as long as they can come into the playoffs healthy and kind of refining their game like they have the last couple of games and bits and pieces, getting it together. I think that's all that they would ever want is to be healthy.

They're 12 they have up front and the 60 and they have the best goal in the world. I'll be the best defenseman in the world. You know, they have depth up front. So they have all the pieces and they know the rest of me to win. It just matter of, you know, can they overcome some of the teams that have gotten a lot better in the last couple years? Because the enemy has a vote too, as John Cooper always says. And some teams feel like this third time, you know, probably Toronto feels this third time.

You know, the Panthers feel like it's third time. So it's, you know, it just matters. of having to muster that desperation up and be able to beat them going forward. How do you view their 7-4 win over the Jets, like within that context? Because obviously when you just look at that win, you're like, oh, is Tampa that? Are they the elite again? But then you zoom out and they're what, you know, one, nine and one in their last 11 against playoff teams in your story.

So how do you view that game? Was that a potential, you know, jumping off place for them to start ramping up ahead of the playoffs? Or is that just a flash in the pan against the Jets? Well, and we'll find out this week against the Leafs on Thursday, right? Beat them pretty good a couple weeks ago here in Tampa. If that's kind of the real test or measuring stick, if you want to call it that. But I think the third period against the Jets was kind of a recipe, what they want to do. The first couple periods, I think, obviously they fell behind by a couple goals.

They were, you know, left a lot of openings up up in front of the net in front of Vasselos for, for tips. The best LFC's pulled for the first time in like three years, three, four years in the regular season. So it was kind of a wake up moment for them. But the third period, they played like the Tempe Light and they're used to playing. And they're playing fast, they're out of their own and quickly. They're not defending much because they're always in offensive zone. Akita Kuturov, you know, show by one of the best players in the world. All their best players are the best players. So that's kind of a jumping off point. If they can do that against, you know, Detroit. And then obviously against Toronto, that'd be more of a probably measuring stick to see if they're, quote, back or not. But for them, they have. six, seven games to get back. They don't have anything to lose right now other than playoff positioning and seating. And we can talk about that later, who's the best matchup or not. But the third period for sure

was kind of the template for what they want to be like. They just need to do it more than just one period. As you know in the playoffs for that to be able to work. You mentioned potential playoff opponents and boy, it feels like they might be on a collision course for a round one date with Toronto.

I know Boston's kind of sitting there in the rear of room mirror. There could be some last minute jockeying. Let me phrase the question this way. Let's say Toronto has home ice advantage and they're playing Tampa. Who should be the favorite in that series, Joe? I think Tampa should be until someone beats them. I think they should be kind of the favorite. I think Toronto's playing better right now going into the playoffs.

As you know, I won the playoffs series in quite a long time. So I think maybe mentally the lightning have an edge in terms of the experience and knowing when it takes. But I think that would be a heck of a series. I'd love to cover it. I love to cover seven games of that. High flying and kind of thing. So, but yeah, I'd be curious if it's a, you know, two, three matchup. If they were 108 points, 106 points, who is the favorite that series?

I don't know what you guys think. You guys probably see, you know, Toronto quite a bit, too. Well, I'm in the, I'm on the West Coast. So Ian, Ian saw them most recently. I mean, that game, I watched most of the Sends Leafs game on Saturday before I went to the rank. And that looked like a playoff game. The Leafs ended up winning overtime, but that was a good game. But I agree with what Joe said. We're talking about a team that nobody's beaten in the playoffs since 2019, so it's hard to call them an underdog, regardless of where they're at in the last

10 games, the regular season and in what seed they are. I don't know how you can. It's hard to bet against them, especially against a team who hasn't gotten it done in the playoffs, right? I don't know what you think about seeing the leaf so young, how they looked the other night. To me, the great equalizer in all of this is Vasilevsky. Like, I feel like Tampa can win a series and they're not maybe firing on all cylinders, if that makes sense. I don't think Toronto can do that with average goaltending. I just don't think they can.

I don't think, whether it's Calgary or Jack Campbell, they're going to have to somehow outplay or match Vasilevsky. That's my fear for Toronto is that Andrei Vazelowski is going to bail out, look, it happened to them last year with Kerry Price, right? Didn't it? Didn't you feel like Kerry Price stole them a series? Everyone knew that Carrie Price. Like that's why Carrie Price, regardless of what he does in the regular season,

there's always that thing with like you don't want to play against Kerry Price in the playoffs. It was the same thing with like Henrik Lunkwist. I was a Penguins fan growing up and you love the Henrik Lunkwist, but you hate Henrik because he stole playoff games in series away from teams because he was just that good. And I'm curious to tack on to that question too, though, Joe. What's the lightnings strategy going to be with Vasilevsky? So I think the priority for teams with goalies who have the ability to steal playoff games and rounds.

Are they going to rest him down the stretch, you think, and go with, like, Brian? Ryan Elliott more or are they going to make sure that he's sharp and confident heading into the playoffs? That's a good question. It is a delicate balance because he's the kind of goalie who wants to play and loves to play. He feels he plays better when he plays more. But the plan all long was to give Elliott for the final 10 starts of the season. He got to start the other night. And so I think they're going to have a chance for Elliott to play maybe three more of these games down the stretch. They have a couple back to backs left. So he'll play at least one of those two and then something else. So it's a balance because they want to give him restful.

Also, he's the kind of guy who feels better when he's playing more consistently. But yeah, I think, you know, S-Lefs, he is a great equalizer in a lot of people's minds and my mind too. You know, he's clinched every last five series with a shutout. But he's played better because they played well in front of them. And so if they can play better defensively and get back to that kind of identity that won them, some of the series last year, including the Islanders won in Montreal, that'll be a different thinker for them. Campbell outplay Vasselowski last time they played in Tampa a few weeks back.

And, you know, the question would become, could he do that over a seven-game series? And I think a lot of guys in Tampa would put their money on Vasilevsky, for sure. You know, Haley and I, we were just chatting about the Ottawa Senators, and we both had a chance to cover Nick Paul a little bit in his career. We always think, you know, Nick is a really, he's a great guy, Real, almost like a cerebral thinker sometimes, really reflective, sensitive guy. I always liked working with him.

I thought it was a great, great person to interview. Just curious how Nick Paul is fitting in in Tampa after about a month or so. Well, he's been terrific. Both, you know, just as a person and just being around the team, he really seemed like he meshed well with the guys and his personality. He said him and his fiancee moved down. Their two dogs already down moving into a house soon, getting more comfortable off the ice.

And on the ice, he's been at advertised. I think Cooper said he's been better than he actually didn't. thought he would be coaching against them versus playing with him, like as far as he has better hands, you know, obviously tough in front of the net. You know, high compliment they could give him as putting him on the line with Kutroff and Braden Point, you know, a few games into his tenure here. So they think they have a really good one here in Nick Paul. And I would be surprised if he has a big playoffs here because they need those kind

of other guys other than the top players to deliver in key moments. And he seems like a guy who could rise to the occasion in big moments. he has in his career. And world juniors and world championships, he scored the game winning goal. So I think he has that pedigree. That's kind of hockey that makes Big Paul even play better. It's competitive intensity when it matters the most.

So that's something they're hoping to see from him next couple months. We already asked you, like, who would be the favorite in a series between, like, Toronto or Tampa? But who do you think is the ideal opponent for the lightning in the first round of playoffs? Well, at this point, it looks like it would either be like Toronto or unless Boston goes on a run and makes it, you know, it's like two, three matchup or catches them. So either be Toronto or if Tampa falls to that wildcard behind Boston and have to play like Carolina. You know, I think Toronto would be a better matchup for Tampa than Carolina would be personally. And I think they might be, I mean, not that they're going to be an easy opponent or lightning are automatically going to win. But I just think the way that they, the style which they play and. maybe the advantage of lighting have a net there with Vasilevsky, help him there versus Carolina-style play. They've always been tough for lighting to beat and play against.

And I think with the group that they have on their blue line would be maybe get a hard series for them. So I think if you had to pick one of those two, I'd say whether they open up at home or on the road, maybe Toronto would be that team. One more for me here, Joe, just to wrap up. You mentioned Nick Paul has been, you know, good on that line. Look, we got a lot of listeners that are probably getting into hockey playoff pool season,

and they're looking at – and look, obviously everyone knows Kutjurav and Stamcoast and had – could you give our listeners like another sneaky pick or two somebody who, like, in a mid-to-late round and a playoff pool might give you some points at the lightning go deep? Ross Colton. I think Ross Colton would be a guy. You could probably get mid-or rounds or split that late rounds. And I think he has like six goals in his last 10 games.

He's playing with Stamcoast and Palat now. As you know, you scored the cup clenching goal against Montreal last year, and it's just really grown a lot this year as a player, and you see him every day after practice working with Jeff Halper on his shot and already has one of the top shots on the team. So I think he's a guy who I could see beyond the Kutrovs and that kind of thing, having a sneaky good playoffs as an X factor there. If you're looking for somebody that's not going to be in the top two rounds or something like that,

I think he'd be a guy to be a smart play. I guess my final question for you, Joe, Are you ready to cover a real playoff series for the first time in the last three years? Because you weren't really around the last two, were you? Because it was all Zoom. Or were you there at the end last year? Last year, you know, it was more in the buildings, right? So I was in like the Islanders for game six when they lost and they threw all the beer on the ice and the Coliseum and so like that.

So like being there in person, definitely the first year I was watching it on TV, you know, all the games from the bubble because we couldn't go to Canada. So I watched the game. They won the cup from my dad's couch in Michigan and watched them in the cup. And it didn't feel like that actually happened, you know. So last year it was definitely better to be close in and around the team and the building when they did win the cup in Tampa. And this year, I think it's even better just to be in person interviews kind of things that are back for us. And you guys can talk about that in your show and how important that is to access and the stories for our readers that we want to bring to them. So yes, it's I'm ready for a playoff run.

I'm ready to do it in person and ready to travel. So that'd be a lot more fun than watching on TV at home the first, the first time around. All right. Well, listen, you might be coming our way or close to it north of the border if we get that Toronto, Tampa matchup in round one. I live in Calgary. I said closer to me, maybe.

I would love to go to Banff again. I'd love to go to Calgary and visit Haley and get some cakes from her mom and then go to Banff and enjoy that. My mom's in Toronto. Oh, Toronto. I'll get my mom to bring a bunny cake. Okay. Sounds good.

I will specifically try to get my mother a media pass so she can, oh my God, she would love that. She loves making. She would come to the rank with a giant cake and be all excited. Yeah. I would go to her. We've never met but here. Sounds like my mom would do that same thing that I need for anybody. Yeah.

I didn't get the like friendly approachable gene from my mom. You were friendly and approachable and welcoming my when it came to Calgary. We had dinner together and hung out. Ian wouldn't agree. He has more experience. I could trust his opinion on that. Did you guys see somebody in the comments for the Tuesday show was like trying to figure out who would win like an anchorman style brawl

between all the athletic hockey show hosts, like all the days? And somebody said that our show like wouldn't do well because I would be the nice one who was trying to like mediate peace the whole time. No, you would fight dirty. And then Max were like, no, no, no. She has fooled them. Like, Haley is not the nice one.

I was like, no, yeah. It's the sneaky ones you're scared about, right? The sneaky ones that look nice on the surface, but then in a backyard brawl would take you out or do something. It's really funny because I do wonder who would win. Like, I think the Thursday show might win based on numbers alone, and you don't know what Sivian's capable of. Yeah. Well, Granger's got some size, too, you know. Yeah.

So I think that would be. I think he's a goalie, so he's a weirdo. We can all agree that we would dust the Friday show with Max Boltman and Corey Prondman. We would, oh man, yeah, that's the, that's the eight steed right there. That's the eight seed. I love Max as a Michigan man. Max would probably jump ship and go to the Tuesday show because he knew Corey's not going to fare well. Well, I'll tell you what, though, you know, teaming up with Sarah out for like a fashion story and seeing all the comments and how she handles those.

I think she's pretty tough too. So, you know, there's a. Yeah, that was a fun story, by the way. That was a really fun, unique. I love those. Those, we just need more of those stories. Like, show the personalities of the players. There are so many of guys that have so many great personalities that they just want to be

showing its whole. And, you know, and so the comments on the story range from the best thing I ever read to what the hell can you do and who cares, you know? And I think so it's kind of a back and forth. But I thought it was fun. I thought it was fun. And the players were all for it. They were all in it.

Yeah. All right. Hey, listen, awesome stuff. We unearthed some great stuff as we were trying to say goodbye to you. We got some great stuff. But hey, listen, thanks for dropping by. And safe travels wherever the Stanley Cup's playoffs take you here in round one. Sounds great.

Hey, Haley, I'll see your mom in Toronto. I'll be ready for it. Okay. Let us know if you want to be on our battle royal team. Okay. I'll have a guest appearance. You can have somebody you can bring some ringers in. Yeah.

We're looking for members. Yeah. It did okay in the Flip Cup challenge. We did about a couple years back in the, well, in the cup challenge. Oh my God, I forgot about that. Yeah. We need a rematch in that one. Let's get it.

Yeah. You have to take care of that. So take care of guys. Have a good one. All right, Haley. We've had a jam-packed show here. Why don't we wrap it up like we always do on the Monday edition of the athletic hockey show with a little segment I like to call multiple choice madness.

All right. Got a couple of questions here for us to tackle. Let's start with this one. Haley, as we're closing out the regular season, I'm going to give you a list of four names here. These are all guys that are in the top. 25 in league scoring. So they're having great years. Which of these guys do you think just didn't get enough buzz or national love for being in the top 25 in scoring?

Is it A, J.T. Miller of the Vancouver Canucks, B, Kyle Connor of the Winnipeg Jets, C.J. J. Gensel from Pittsburgh or D. Nashville's Matt D. Shane. Who didn't get enough love this season, Haley? I feel like J.T. Miller has gotten a lot. And maybe that's just because I follow the Canucks and some Canucks writers. But I do think J.T. Miller has gotten quite a bit of attention, especially around the trade deadline, because he was expected or at least early on he was a trade piece. So I think that kind of generated a lot of the chat of like, look at how good this guy's playing. And the conversation around him went from, is he a trade piece to, oh, my God, there's no way that the Canucks can trade him because he's playing so well.

So I don't know if I would say J.T. Miller. I'm kind of torn between Kyle Connor and Matt Dushane. I can maybe understand why Kyle Connor's not getting a ton of love because Winnipeg hasn't been very good this year and there's been other things that have kind of dominated the conversation around that team. First, it's Palmary stepping down and then the team not doing great. So I kind of want to say Matt Dushain. Like Matt Ducane kind of goes hand in hand.

I don't think people were really talking about Roman Yossi a lot until the last month or so where now it's kind of like we're watching him, you know, almost potentially take away the Norris from Kail McCar. And I don't know people's really been talking about Matt Dushain enough. I was looking at, you know, the NHL stats page to look at where, you know, Kach and Lynn home and in Goodrow were. And when I was looking at goal scoring, I hadn't realized how many goals Matthew Shane had scored just because people haven't really been talking about him in that way this season. Like when I was looking, I was like, oh, Matt Dushin is what, 38 goals, 36 goals or something right now? I don't know what it exactly is at this point, but I was like, oh, oh, hey,

Matt Dushain's popping off this year. I have 39 goals right now. I don't know if a lot of people knew that. So I'm going to go with Matt Dushain. You know what? I'm going to go with Jay Gensel because, like, if you had told me that, like, like, I knew Matt Dushain was having a good year. I knew, like, like you, I feel like J.T. Miller, maybe because he was kind of in some trade rumors. Like, he was kind of in the news cycle. Kyle Connor, I've seen people say, like, he could get the 50 goals.

You could have told me that Jake Gensel was in the top 25 in scoring. I wouldn't have believed it. He's got 30 even strength goals. Like, Jake Gensel isn't like this guy that's just like riding the power play. and, you know, putting up godly obscene numbers. Like, Jake Gensel has as many goals, I think, even strength as Johnny Goudreau this season. One more.

Oh, even strength, yeah. Even strength, right, right. And I think the same number is Carreel Caprizov. And, like, some of these guys that are having kind of MVP caliber seasons. And I don't think, like, for me, that I realized Jake Gensel was having that year. So I'm going Jake Gensel, for me, the guy that just deserves a little more love. I think he's not getting a ton of. of attention because, you know,

Sidney Crosby came back from, you know, his injury problems, then he came back, then he got COVID, then he took a little while to get going. But since the like, I think a week or so after he finally came back from COVID, since then he's like one of the top scores in the league from that date point behind like Austin Matthews, Mitch Marner, like those guys. Like Crosby's like right there. I think he has 80 points.

Right. in the 64 games that he's been in, and we have to remember that the first, like, seven or eight games, like maybe even 10 games of the year, Crosby was not, was not Sidney Crosby. And so since then, Crosby's just been Crosby. And so I think that's probably overshadowed what Jake Gensel's doing a little bit. But I think the fact that I don't even remember, like, were there conversations about Jake Gensel not playing well when Crosby was hurt or was he still popping off earlier in the season?

I honestly don't remember this year has been incredibly long. So I think that might be part of it. But I don't know. I feel bad because I watch the Penguins a lot, but I really don't remember if he was playing well when Crosby was still hurt or if that's a byproduct again. But I think Gensel has done enough to prove that he's not just good because he plays with Sidney Crosby, right?

Yeah, I think he's done enough. He's not just a byproduct. He's a good player. Yeah. Like I think when he first came into the league, He was like, you kind of felt like he was this like rando guy with a weird. He was number 59, right? Like he's like this guy just is going to be a random classic penguin guy that, you know,

just kind of rides the coattails of the big guys. But he's been, I feel like he, he had a pretty good start. Yeah, you know what. He had eight points in his first 10 games. And he had 15 points in 14 games in November, including eight goals. Like he's basically been a point of game guy. Yeah, all season. From November onwards.

So I think he's been fairly consistent. I just think he's kind of been. I think I'm sorry to keep talking about the penguins, but I think that's just like a credit. They've been so good at, you know, everyone makes the mark don't joke or whatever. And the penguins just always seem to have somebody who pops up when there's an injury who's just good.

And I think that's just a really good credit to their professional scouting staff, but also their professional development group. You know, there always just seems to be a young guy who can come up. Mark don't. Isn't that, isn't that the name that everyone thought? Is it Mark donk? Yeah.

There's like the Mark donk. Like everyone makes that joke. Like, this is the new like Mark donk. But, you know, the penguins do a really good job at not just drafting and developing guys who can do that, but they do a really good job through college free agency. Because Jim Rutherford would trade so many of the draft picks. Like you have to be good at finding those young players elsewhere. And they've done a good job via a college free agency. They've got some good college-free agents over the years who've, you know, been able to go and play in the American League and then pop up in the NHL and be like, oh, hey, just put him on Grosby's wing.

He looks pretty good there. And he's going to screw 20 goals easy. All right, let me ask you one other question, multiple choice madness. Our listeners, you can always play along. Which team needs to win the draft lottery the most? Okay. So at the end of the year, of course, they put all the names or the teams that they get the lottery balls. which team needs to win the draft lottery the most?

Is it A, Arizona, B, Seattle, C, Detroit, or D, somebody else? I mean, when you're talking about who they, who needs to, it's probably Arizona. Like, they need top-end talent that they can actually keep in their organization for a long period of time and grow around them. But, like, in terms of who I want to win the draft lottery, I want Detroit to win the draft lottery. That team has been screwed over so many times in the draft lottery. Like they have fallen. Max Boltman and I did this when I still covered the sense. We did like a little draft lottery roundtable thing because both teams technically lost the draft lottery to the Rangers.

And Max did like crunch the numbers of like how many spots that team has fallen over the years. And it's just a lot. And so I would like to see Detroit. even though they're on their way through their rebuilding path, for Max Boltman and for the Detroit Red Wings fans, I would like to see them win the draft lottery. I don't know how much they need it, because they've got some top-end talent already.

I mean, everyone needs to win the draft lottery if you're in a rebuild, but I would like to see Detroit, but I'm sure it's probably Arizona with the biggest need. Seattle's got like 30 draft picks in the next couple years or something. I don't care if they draft first overall next year. Yeah, and they got Maddie Benneers is up there now And they've got some... You know what?

I think it is Arizona, Arizona for me. And I feel bad because they got to play in that likely playing that 5,000 seat arena next year And it's just, you know what? Like, it's not going to be a fun vibe for that fan base. It's not going to be fun for the fans in Arizona To go through a season. Like, it would be great if they had Shane Wright.

Like maybe they're in a smaller venue, but hey, we got Shane Wright and we can watch this kid play. and you know what? But I agree with you. Detroit has had some terrible luck with the draft lottery. So the lottery gods probably owed Detroit one. I think so.

But give me Arizona. Because I feel like that fan base has just been punched down on. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Way too long. All right. Hey, listen, Haley, we're going to leave it there. We're going to remind everybody that if you got an opportunity to leave us a rating and review

on your favorite podcast platform, we certainly appreciate that. You can subscribe to the Athletic Audio Plus on Apple Podcasts, get all of the bonus content from our entire network, 30-day free trial, $99 a month after that. Right now, you can subscribe to The Athletic for just a dollar a month for six months when you visit theathletic.com slash hockey show.