The Athletic Hockey Show - Every Cup contender's fatal flaw as we hit Thanksgiving

Episode Date: November 25, 2024

No NHL team is perfect, and with Thanksgiving upon us, Max and Laz identify the fatal flaw that could derail each Stanley Cup contender on their path to June glory. Before that, the guys discuss Blues GM Doug Armstrong replacing Drew Bannister with Jim Montgomery a mere 22 games into his tenure as head coach. Plus, The Athletic’s NHL insider Pierre LeBrun talks other coaches on the hot seat, early trade rumblings, and 4 Nations roster construction. And, Jesse Granger closes things out with thoughts on the very uncertain goaltending situation for the Carolina Hurricanes.Hosts: Max Bultman and Mark LazerusWith: Pierre LeBrun and Jesse GrangerExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Chris Flannery Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. Hey, everybody, Max Boltman here alongside Mark Lazarus for another episode of the athletic hockey show. Pierre LeBrun, Jesse Granger, are going to join us a little bit later. We're going to talk today about some of the fatal flaws of the NHL's cup contenders today. But the first, Las, we had a really interesting move over the weekend. Obviously, last week, Boston, part in ways with Jim Montgomery. And St. Louis decided just 22 games into Drew Bannister's tenure. They were in.

They make the switch from Bannister to Montgomery right away. And I'm really curious to hear what your reaction was to this one. You know, it's funny. We had a Fluto Shinzawa for like a little quick emergency podcast earlier in the week. And I asked him that. He said, like, how quick should we expect to see Jim Montgomery back in the NHL? And he basically said, maybe within the week. Sure enough, here we are.

I feel bad for True Pannister, right? I mean, he didn't really deserve to be fired yet. He got it to, he just got an extension. You got the interim tag removed. And then 20 games into the season, a quarter into his first full season. They're like, never mind. We like this guy better. And, you know, Bannister's still going to get paid and he'll be fine.

But it's pretty ruthless, isn't it? Like, we don't see this a lot. This is not unprecedented, but usually there's some kind of like underlying reason for it or the possibility is happening. But to pull the rug off underneath a coach that soon into his tenure, just because a guy you like better just became available, we don't see that kind of. We don't see that kind of ruthlessness. This is Doug Armstrong, man, between this and the offer sheets, he is just going after it, man, for a team that's going nowhere. I mean, you look at Dom's playoff odds.

He has the blues at less than 1% to make the playoffs this year. But they are playing like their contenders. And I get it, but it's also, it sends a strange message, doesn't it? It's a weird message. This early end of the tenure, I mean, he's got to be thinking, what could I have possibly done different here, right? I mean, and really, the underlying message is that all along this is what they would have preferred to do, right? Boston obviously doesn't get eliminated in the first round, and I'm sure, you know, looking back in hindsight,

that's kind of the takeaway here is that, okay, well, if he could have came available sooner, then they would have just avoided all this, and they ultimately probably get the guy that they might have preferred all along. But it is very ruthless. And, you know, I don't know how much of this is being a little. precious about it, right? Like this is pro sports, pro sports is ruthless. But I really feel for Bannister because I think you wait so long to get a chance like this.

And then to have it go this way and now you're, you're going to get the dreaded retread label that everyone sticks on coaches. Right. And I don't know if it actually makes it any harder for him to get his next job or anything like that, but I feel for him because it does feel like all along. St. Louis was conscious waiting for their opportunity at Montgomery, no matter whether it came last spring in November,

at the end of this season, whenever they thought Montgomery was going to be available is kind of how this seems. Well, it's interesting because if you treat a player this way, you will have trouble attracting free agents. Like that gets around, you develop a reputation, players don't want to come play for you. With coaches, it's less of an issue, right?

Because, you know, it's a totally different animal than a player. And there's only 32 jobs in the world in the NHL. So, you know, a coach isn't going to, like, say, you know what, I don't want to work for you. I saw what happened to, you know, Drew Bannister seven years ago. Like, that's not going to happen. If you do this to a player, if you treat a player this poorly, this rudely, this ruthlessly, there's a long tail to that. I don't think that'll happen with the coach. But it's interesting to see if they develop some kind of reputation now where, you know, people don't trust Doug Armstrong because he's just going to, you know, he's willing to do anything, which is great if you're a fan, right?

I mean, theoretically, the blues just upgraded significantly. Jim Montgomery is a terrific coach. You know, why he didn't get an extension in Boston and why they were willing to move on from him and what happened this year? We'll have to see when we get all the behind-the-scenes stories in the near future. But he's an excellent coach with a really good track record, so I get it. But again, what are the St. Louis Blues? This isn't a young team. It's not an old team.

They have a decent middling prospect pool. They're not going to make the playoffs this year. They're probably not going to make the playoffs next year. They're in a brutal division that's got four teams that aren't going anywhere anytime soon. So why now? I mean, unless you're seeing Jim Montgomery as your coach for the next 20 years, which maybe Doug Armstrong is, this is a strange move. This is a win now move for a team that has no chance of winning now.

Well, they gave him a five-year deal. They obviously had the familiarity with him from when he was an assistant. And to your point about Doug Armstrong, I don't think he's worried about that at all because he's already got a succession plan in place. Like Alexander Steen is already the heir apparent there. Armstrong's contract as president of hockey ops goes through 28, 29. I think Montgomery's got a five-year deal. So this is his last one.

This reads to me as I'm going out with this guy. I saw it up close. I liked what I saw. And this will be kind of my last coaching hire. So I'm not worried about whatever reputational consequences that may bring. Now, I do agree, almost from a Montgomery standpoint of things, is like, what does he think the blues on? Because I agree. I don't see them being a playoff team this year. He certainly strikes me as a playoff type coach. Like, you know, down the stretch in Boston there, you saw some of the interactions that would be on the bench, right?

The back and forth with Marchand, the benching Posternak. I don't know that you can really be doing that on a team that I'm not ready to call them like Capital R rebuilders because it doesn't seem like that's. how they're viewing themselves. But they are going to have a lot of young players coming up here. You know, Dalboor-Divorski's going to be on the roster in the next year or so, and I'm sure he's going to need some, you know, guidance and maybe a little bit of tough love that comes with that. But Montgomery seems to kind of carry the hammer there. And that's not how you typically view teams that are looking for the seventh or eighth seat in the Western Conference. Yeah, I mean, jumping at the first job that's available, giving yourself four days of, you know,

obviously he has ties to the team. He loved it there. It could just be as simple as that. But yeah, there were probably going to be better jobs in the next. If you waited throughout the rest of the year or even until the off season, there were going to be better jobs available. Teams with a more clear future, a better path to success, whether that's Detroit, whether that's Pittsburgh, you know, and we can all argue until the cows come home, whether those are good jobs either or whether they're stuck in the mud too.

but it is a very sudden move and we've seen this before. I think it was Claude Julian did this where he basically got fired and then was hired within a week. I think Bruce Brudrow did this. Some of these guys just don't want to not be, they just don't want to be out of the game.

And when you have a team you're familiar with, a city you like and there's a job, you take it. Again, there's only 32 of these. But Jim Montgomery is a high, high end coach who is very well respected and he would have had his pick of the litter out there. Jumping at the first one.

It seems like maybe he and Armstrong had this unspoken agreement in place, and this was always going to be the case if he got fired, especially when the rumors of his job security started bubbling up during the playoffs last year. But man, it's very sudden, and it's a huge commitment, five years. You've not seen a lot of five-year contracts handed out to new coaches. That's usually like, you know, Mike Babcock, Joel Quinville, at the peak of their powers getting five-year extensions.

This is a big one. Yeah, I mean, we just talked in the last show with CJ about how three years, seems to be kind of the like the TikTok moment for NHL coaches here. It's either you've won by then or it's maybe not going to happen. So yes, five years certainly interesting. I just, I do ultimately think that, you know, you talk about where there are better options out there. It kind of seems to me like just in the same way St. Louis appears to have had their mind made up that it was Montgomery. Montgomery maybe kind of had his mind made up that it was St. Louis just from their past experience together.

The familiarity, all that stuff really does help. Does Drew Bannister get another job after this? Does he have enough of a track record to show that, you know, does I deserve another job? Or was it just in St. Louis that he had that opportunity and to have it taken away from him this quickly? Does this preclude him from getting another NHL head coaching job in the near future? Well, I think that's what bothers me about the whole thing. You see the line for NHL head coaching jobs. And it's like it's every like really veteran head coach and up-and-comers coming through college, the AHL, the junior leagues.

you know, his list is good, right? He was an AHA head coach in Springfield and in San Antonio, and then he was the interim coach, obviously, in St. Louis. I don't know that his tracker heard in St. Louis is going to preclude that from him, but it's just, it kind of feels like you're going to kind of dip in the line. Now, maybe I'm looking at it backwards. It's possible that that experience now gives him the experience box to check when he's, you know, being considered.

But I use that word at the beginning retread. I really hate that word, as I've said on the show, because I think it diminishes kind of the experience of coaching in the NHL. But he's no longer... A retread is John Hines, is Peter Laviolet, is Paul Maurice. It's someone who's been in seven teams by now, although all three of them made it to the conference final last year, so maybe there's something to be said for him.

Yeah, and I think people like to kind of tell themselves that, okay, well, we haven't seen this guy fail in the NHL yet. So that means he's got a good chance to work. Really, I think that's probably true of basically any candidate there. They all have a chance to work. It's just what fit is right. So I don't think it's like a death knell to his head coaching career, but it's just tough that his first go at it went like this.

I don't think you can hold the St. Louis experience against him at the very least, if you're at age. No, but it does feel like you said, like he gets moved to the back of the line now. There's the David Carls of the world and there's other up-and-coming. And every team has their own AHL coach that they might, you know, be a hat of grooming, waiting in the wings. And, you know, Bannister got his chance, and he had it taken away from him very suddenly.

Well, I know a guy who might have a little more insight on this matter than we do. So let's bring in now our NHL insider, Pierre LeBron. What's going on, gentlemen? Look, he had an opportunity to wear his cowboy shirt today and not be embarrassed. Congratulations, dear. Oh, my God. What a finish. One of the most entertaining endings to a football game in football history.

I mean, that was unbelievable, Washington, Dallas. Would you have thought the same thing if they had lost in that fashion? Oh, totally. I mean, honestly, I wanted the Cowboys to lose out after they lost to Atlanta and Dack got hurt. So this is a bit of a nightmare because they're probably going to finish eight and nine now and just to screw up their draft ranking. But there's too much talent there to lose out. That's the problem. I mean, they started getting guys back on defense yesterday and they'll probably beat the Giants on U.S. Thanksgiving this week.

So, I mean, it was too much to ask to finally get an high pick. They never pick high. They either finish 500 or make the playoffs and never make eye. Sounds like the St. Louis Blues, actually. Well, Blues won a cop in 2019, buddy. Come on. That is true. That is true. Let's point that out. Right when you came up here, we've been talking about Drew Bannister,

and I'm feeling a little bad for him this morning, for a lot of reasons, obviously. But to have your first coaching job in the NHL be so short-lived. And I just wonder, like, NHL teams aren't going to treat this like this is his fault that he gets fired after 22 games, are they? No. In future job opportunities? No, and you hope he gets another crack for sure. You know, it's tough because, you know, when the year ended last year,

the Blues kind of hesitated before signing him to the extension and cementing his place as a head coach, he kind of wondered even then, what was Doug Armstrong looking for for a bit there at the end of last season before reaffirming, you know, that Bannister was a guy and part of me, and I think Jeremy Rutherford wrote last week. But, you know, I always wonder if the Leafs score in overtime in game seven instead of the Bruins, is Jim Montgomery fired then by Boston? I don't think it was warranted. I mean, it was year two, and he had had another successful season and the league is close, but just for argument's sake, is that what maybe St. Louis was waiting for last spring,

is to see the fate of Jim Montgomery had Toronto one game seven. So, you know, if you take all these, layers into your head. It's not shocking that he ended up as the Blues head coach. As soon as Montgomery was fired last week, I got a text from someone saying, keep an eye on St. Louis. But honestly, I just assumed that meant maybe at the end of the year, depending on how Bannister did. I did not foresee this happening this quickly at all. And I have to believe that Doug Armstrong looked around the league and said, well, what if another team jumps at this? You know, what if Detroit makes a coaching change and they jump on Jim Montgomery, then I've lost my window. So it just felt to me that Doug Armstrong, obviously what had Jim Montgomery on the bench,

felt important to get ahead of things here. But yeah, you feel for Drew Bannister because, you know, he just signed it to your extension this past summer. He was in year one of that two-year extension and was just really getting going. So it's a tough business for sure. You know, we've seen this sort of before. I think back to 2008 here in Chicago, the Blackhawks had signed Joel Quenville as a scout over the summer, and everybody knew they were just looking for a reason to kick any Savard out the door so they could make Quenville a coach.

Four games into the season, they found it, they made that move. But that was a kind of a new regime had come into some degree. Does Doug Armstrong being this ruthless, you know, this in the offer sheet, does he start developing a reputation good or bad in the league for being this just cutthroat? Well, he has a tremendous reputation across the league, Mark, just so you know, like, you probably know this, but like, you know, he basically runs the GM's executive committee. So there's a, the executive committee is a new thing in the last couple of years in the NHL. We know there's an executive committee for owners. That's been there forever. But at the GM level, Doug Armstrong and Ken Holland were at the heart of organizing a GM's version of the executive committee.

And it started a couple years ago. And Dar Armstrong is central in setting the agenda. and getting feedback and, you know, communicating with Bill Daly about what the GMs committee is up to. And he has, you know, huge respect around the league from other GMs. You know, he's one of the deans of the GM. So, oh, this is just business. I mean, it's, again, I feel for Bannister,

but I don't think reputation-wise anyone will bat an eye, quite frankly. You talked about kind of the threat, if they have, hadn't hired him so quickly, could another team have gone after Montgomery had they made a move? Are there any other situations you're watching especially close? I know you referenced Detroit, and I certainly thought after the California road trip, that was at least a conversation to have. But we are around that time of year. Now we've seen two of them. Are there any other situations you're watching? Yeah, I mean, listen, the only reason you have to mention Detroit is that, is that, you know, the loan's deals up at the end of the year. So same way that, you know, we were keeping an eye in Boston

because Montgomery had an expiring deal. Those are always, unfortunately, the situations you monitor because it's an easier financial move to make than firing a coach who has term left on his deal in terms of the kind of conversations that happen between GMs and owners with these things. So, I mean, I think that's why you're seeing, you know, speculation on Detroit. But, again, I mean, that's Steve Eisenman's not tipping his hand to anyone there. I'm trying to think I mean I don't know that I see another fire here in the short term you know I think that's that's probably it right now

but ask me again in two weeks it changes fast at this league in terms of expectations and losing streaks and whatnot yeah so we're as we hit US Thanksgiving that that's kind of the line of demarcation for a lot of teams and you know that's why we're seeing some coaches fire Are we seeing some trade talk heat up as the kind of buyers and sellers start separating themselves?

Should we expect? There's usually a couple of big early moves before we get near to the deadline. Are things heating up a little bit out there? I mean, they kind of did because all the GMs were here, Hall of Fame weekend for the GM meetings here in Toronto, I should say. And the face-to-face always tends to produce a bit of a perk in the stuff that you hear about teams connecting and getting an idea of who might be available early. So we definitely felt that out of that quick one day.

GM's meeting here. You know, I reported this at the time and others have as well. But, you know, Buffalo Savers, GM, Kevin Adams was telling his counterparts, I want to do something big. I don't know if that's the same two weeks later because the savers are suddenly playing better, but that was a sentiment he had relayed. I think Boston keep an eye on down, Sweeney. Yeah, he made the coaching change.

but if he's still not seeing what he likes, I know that he's been calling around doing his due diligence. Carolina has been calling around on the goalie market with Frederick Anderson out long term. You know, and I know that Kachkov wasn't at practice today. I haven't looked for an update, so as we take this, we'll see what the update is there on Kachikov. But either way, Carolina doing this due diligence on the goalie market

just in case, it wouldn't surprise me if they traded for a goalie between now March 7th. Nashville, Barry Trots, has talked to a lot of teams, obviously not thrilled with what's happened there. And, you know, he's got a lot of good young town in the pipeline, so I would certainly keep an eye on Barry Trots here. Is Nashville still thinking of adding at this point? Do they see this season as salvageable?

I think they still do, but I still think that no matter what they end up doing, Mark, because Barry Trots has this pretty linear vision of the here and now plus the future tied together that they would be a move that would help if they do something and they've been looking for help at center, it would help this team not just this year. Like it would be something that would help them pass this year. I did a long interview with Brad Tree Living this weekend and he confirmed what a lot of people in this market were speculating that he is looking at center help between now and March. 7th, you know, basically a third line center. So that's something for the Leafs who are playing

unbelievable hockey, but I think they feel that's probably the missing piece for them. They've revamped their blue line. They're getting much better goaltending this year. But a little more depth down the middle is going to be their priority for Bradgeraldi. Well, connecting two of those teams that we just talked about there, is there a world where we could see a Ryan O'Reilly reunion with the Maple Leafs? I mean, he's a guy in national. Phil who if they do start to look maybe more toward the future, we know he had success when he was a leave for that brief stint. Yeah, I don't know if that's too rich of the kind of move that they're looking to make.

Yeah, it's not a other question. You know, the Leafs tried very hard to resign O'Reilly after he came here as a rental deal. You know, I think they offered him just as much money, if not more than what Nashville signed them to, by the way, that summer. but I just don't think O'Reilly's off fit here at the time. So, yeah, who knows? We'll see where that goes with the predators, depending on wins and losses there. You know, again, tree living wouldn't say exactly what type of move that look like

other than that's an area that he wants to address probably. But I kind of felt like more of a third-line check and center, and I think we all agree here, O'Reilly's probably above that. But then again, you know, if he's willing to play that role in the playoffs for the Toronto Maple Leafs, that makes them pretty darn deep behind Matthews and Tavares, if that would be the case. But, you know, again, I don't know that he's on their radar or not.

Before we let's go, we wanted to ask you, we're about a week away from rosters being set for the four nations faceoff, I believe. So what are you hearing on that front? How he did are these discussions getting? I don't know about he did. I mean, certainly the sense I get from the U.S. and Canada is that they're pretty much at the end of, you know, they're down to two or three decisions and, and they're hard. I mean, you know, I reported this a couple of weeks ago, but the U.S. and Canada went to the league

and asked whether the rosters could be expanded from 23 to 25 and got rejected by the NHL and the HLPA, who said this was the agreement when we announced four nations. Don't try changing the rules now. But, you know, the hard part for the U.S. and Canada, you know, talking to both groups is that some of the big-name players that will be told they didn't make it in that same conversation that Bill Guerin for the U.S. and Don Sweetie for Canada has with this player, the end of the conversation is going to be, and by the way, is there any way you can make sure you don't book a trip to the Bahamas for mid-February because a lot can happen between now and mid-February and you're next on our list. And seriously, that's like for sure. Management groups are nervous about this conversation because they have no control over it. But, but there's almost no chance that the rosters announced December 4th are going to be exactly the same as the roster that hit the ice in Montreal in February because of injuries. So how do you convince slash, you know, encourage these players to not make plans? I mean, players love to go for a reset somewhere south.

I don't blame them. It's a grind of a season. And so can you convince players to not do that? And I think the biggest carrot you can throw at them if you're Bill Garen or Don't Sweeney is that don't forget that Four Nations is a real tee up for the Olympics. Yeah. And, you know, there's still a chance you can play in this event. But even if you don't, just keep in mind, you're very much on a radar for Italy, 20. And I think that's probably where you might win over most of these guys who will have to overcome getting the worst of the worst of news.

Do you have any sense on how these GMs are wading experience versus who's playing the best now? Like if you've played in a world, if you have Olympic experience, is that going to trump someone who's just playing better hockey right now? I don't know that there's, I think there's, I think there's a trapping there and me giving you a one-stop answer on that one, Mark, is a, a, truly depends on the exact spot on the roster you're talking about and the debate they're having. There's no question, you know, I'll give you an example for Canada. I know that they're kind of waiting on Drew Doughty to see where he's at, you know, what should we do with that? You know, maybe we don't name him, name him, but let him know that he's the first guy will take if he's playing well and we have an injury or do we name it, you know, because he was there

and obviously in Vancouver and Sochi and part of that golden generation of Team Canada. And he was fabulous last year too. Yeah, I mean he's still a great player. But now you've got to see how he is when he comes back here and what is you know, what his performance is like. And that's why, again, all four teams, you know, I

talked to Swedish head coach, Sam Elam for a piece, talked to the Finland GMieri Letting in the last month. All four teams wish that the devil line wasn't December 2nd. I mean, they all wish you had more time, but it's been done for a multitude of reasons of the NHLPA pushing that so players can plan ahead. By the way, it will be 25-man rosters for the Olympics.

A couple of extra roster spots there. But because so much can change and listen, the nightmare for Canada, you know, who we all know is what to do and goal. And I know as of last week, they still really hadn't. cut down the list to the nuppor they probably should have by now because it's it's pretty wide open and and you know the nightmare for canada is particular that position where it's like whatever three they come up with for december 2nd and i don't know though i don't think there'll be that much up war in canada i mean it is what it is but it could be a different three in february

that you wish you had just based on performance you know i mean so so i don't think there's any any better example of the two and a half months that will play out in the NHL between roster submission and the actual event in Montreal and Boston February, there's not a more glaring example of the problem with that setup than the goaltending decision for Canada. Great stuff, Pierre. Thanks so much for joining us, and we'll talk to you again very soon. Right on, right on. All right, we are back, Laz. And today our topic is going to be each contenders kind of fatal flaw. I just watched the movie Troy last night,

so I might say they're Achilles heel as we get deeper into this NHL season here. We've got a long list of contenders. It's probably longer than the, you know, I'm not saying that there's an obvious team that can't be in here, but usually within a month or two we'll have this winnow down to about eight.

We got 10 or 11 here right now. Yeah, genuinely a third of the league could conceivably win the cup right now, it feels like. It feels open-ended. And there's some teams that I wanted to cut And then I looked at the standings and I went, ah, they're in second in the Central Division. I won't tell you who that is. Gee, I wonder.

So let's start here with the team we talked about with Pierre, with the Toronto Maple Leafs. Because when I look at this Eastern Conference now, Laz, the thing I see is the Toronto Maple Leafs fatal flaw is being the Toronto Maple Leafs. Like, they look like a team that is, it's starting to click for them. And I wonder what you see. I mean, Pierre mentioned obviously looking for a third line center. That's a very cup contendery thing to be looking for. Oh yeah, especially when you're, if we're talking about a Ryan O'Reilly type, someone who wants to go out and chase a ring, absolutely.

Like they won six out of seven. They play really good team defense. They don't give up a lot of high danger chances. Goaltending, which was a big question mark coming in. It's been excellent. Stolars has been great. Wall's been great. The only real flaw you can find with this team besides the ghosts and the rafters.

They got a pretty mediocre power play. I think they basically scored almost all of their power play goals in like a three game span earlier this month. otherwise it's been pretty poor and, you know, a power play when we're talking in the postseason is such a huge aspect of winning these close tight

playoff games. Now you got to assume Matthews comes back, all the talent on there that they'll be fine, but we're here to pick some nits. And if you're going to pick a knit right now on the Maple Leafs who are playing as well as anybody in the league, you know, that's a flaw you can find. That's a small chink in the armor that you could find that could really make a difference. I think the other thing

too is going to be keeping Stolars rusted, right? Like obviously he's played fantastic. I think better than anyone not named Jesse Granger could have predicted because I do think Stollars was one of the guys Jesse came on this show and shouted out before the season. But even back then, we were talking about the fact that Stolars hasn't played 40 games in a season going all the way back to like 2015-16. Like that's the last time he played more than 40 games. And I think at this rate he's probably going to do that in Toronto.

And then if you're going to fancy yourself a cup contender, oh, by the way, you got to be ready for at least 15 to 20 more. even if you are sprinkling wall in there. I mean, you can say that about everyone on the Maple Leafs. Can they survive 25 playoff games because they've never had to, right? They've never really been pushed that far. But yeah, that's a huge one. A goalie who's used to, you know, that kind of lighter workload,

especially when you get to the playoffs where he's going to be starting just about every game. I mean, he's been good enough that if they, when they get to that point, I don't think you're going to see a Allmark swing in rotation. More often than not, when you get to the playoffs, coaches resort to traditionalism, and they're going to go right into that, you know, it's your net, run with it. Yeah. All right. So right behind

them in the Atlantic Division right now are the defending Cup champions from the Florida Panthers. I don't know that I'm ready to say there's a fatal flaw in the Panthers. Like, I'm still buying their hype all day. But I guess, you know, it is a thinner roster than it was last year. You lose Brandon Montour.

Is that a grave enough concern for it to call it their Achilles heel, their fatal flaw here or what? I don't know. Their goal tendings been pretty bad this year, but you'd be really stupid to just write off Sergey Bobrowski right now, right? So it's hard to dwell on that.

It might just be the fatigue factor, right? This team has played so many games. Although you look at Tampa, they went to three straight finals, Chicago, 2013, 14, 15. They went Stanley Cup, game seven of the conference final, Stanley Cup. It seems like you can make it three years. It's that fourth year when you fall off a cliff, when it really. when it really all catches up to you. So I'm not really even prepared to say that fatigue is an issue here.

So I don't know. Like this is still, this is the, they're the defending champs for a reason. They've been to two straight finals for a reason. It's hard to pick too many mitts on them. But right now they're getting brutal, goaltending. Just, it's been terrible. And yet here they are. And yet here they are.

Striking range. And I think that's what makes them so impressive. It's so hard to get worked up over teams that have proven that the regular season doesn't really matter. They were the eight seed two years ago, went to the final. They were great last year, went to the final. You reach a point when you become this mega team where you just don't really care about the regular season. So it's hard to get too worked up about any of this.

And that'll be the same conversation that we'll have about Colorado, right? Well, let's just do that one right now. Like right now I look at Colorado and I say if you took away the logos, if we took away the names, we are not talking about this group as a cup contender. And yet all of us have seen what the Colorado Avalanche have been for the last last five years. And there's no way that I'm going to come on the show and say they're not a cup contender. Oh, I'm not going to say they're not a cup contender, but I could, I could count many

flaws with this team. That's right. They are so reliant on the big three of Nathan McKin and Miko Randton and Kail McCarr right now that nobody else chips in at all. Like the returns of Lekanin and Etchuskin, those are huge for them and they desperately need it. But this is a super top heavy team with questionable goal tending, a bad penalty kill. those top three are so good

that they can overcome that in the regular season but I would not be betting on this team in the playoffs right now. Yeah, and yet the stars are just so good. They're so good. Then you kind of do feel like if they can just tread water when the other lines are on the ice or even be within a goal when the other lines are on the ice that, yeah, McKinnon, McCarr-Rent

and can more than make up for it. If you look at their team underlying numbers, they are actually pretty good, better than I would have thought when we were doing the prep, this show. So it's really just the overall kind of lineup impact and the stratification, I guess, is the best word for this. They're just as dependent on their stars as any team in the league, really any team that I can really remember in recent memory in this kind of air.

Which brings us to the Edmonton Oilers, I'd say, another team that's obviously a contender based on what they did last year. But it has just been Leon and Connor the entire, see, Zach Hyman, Nugent Hopkins, Skinner, Arvinson, none of these guys are controlled. the way they need to be contributing. But again, Leon and Connor, we've seen them carry this team through playoff series before. But they really need help. They were a deeper team last year. They were getting more of that depth scoring last year.

They are incredibly dependent on their top guys right now, too. And I think that's something that I think can be fixed as the season goes on. Like right now, they're in a place where dry sidels been, especially with McDavid missing some games early in the season. Drysiddle's kind of been there everything. But I think playoff series brings that out of your depth. I think playoff series kind of, especially guys who have been there before and have done it a little bit. I know Skinner hasn't literally been in the playoffs before.

But some of the guys who have been in those big games, they will rise to the moment, I think, when that happens, when guys start really checking McDavid and Dryside. I think this is still a deep enough lineup when I just pull up the lines here that they can still produce. It just hasn't really happened yet. Granted, it's not the same team as last year. I thought Dylan Holloway was one of the most important players they had in last year's playoff because he gave them that down lineup boost. He gave them that juice. It is not quite the same.

Facilipi-Pocleson, we don't know if he can do that. Caspari Caput. And we don't know if he can do that. But guys like Cory Perry, guys like Adam Henrique, guys like even Matisse Yanmark, I do think that when those playoff games start becoming really meaningful, I do still think you'll get something out of those players. See, but you're mentioning those like bottom six guys that need to contribute that jump in every now and then.

I'm talking Ryan Eugene Hopkins was a 100-point guy not that long ago. Zach Heiman was a 50 goal scorer last year. Jeff Skinner and Victor Arvinson are major goal scorers in their career, and they are contributing nothing. Those are your second tier scorers. You're talking about the bottom tier scores that score like one huge goal in a series, maybe two. They're not getting that middle tier. They're just below the star scoring right now. And if they don't have that, Mattias Yanmark is not going to fill that hole.

That's fair. And you're right. I mean, on the, but I just think when those top players are on the ice, typically your McDavid's and your dry sidles, they can make, they can elevate the guys around them to produce. And I would be more worried about what happens when they're not on the ice. But I get your point. I do think obviously Hyman having a 50 goal season,

New Jersey Hopkins having 100-point season last year was a big part of the reason the Oilers went as far as they did. Let's go to the other teams in the Eastern Conference now, where we started, with the New Jersey Devils. And they're not a team that I think we're surprised to be talking about here. I think everyone kind of had them as a dark horse. But for them to be in first place in the metro, I think in first place in the entire east actually right now, it's gone about as well, I think, as you could have hoped for the New Jersey Devils.

Yeah, I mean, this is a team that a lot of us were high on two years ago and then we're high on last year and last year everything fell apart. They went and they got the goalie, so they were going to be cup contenders. But, you know, with Nico Hesier or Jack Hughes is about as good a one-two. punches you can have at center. I worry about the wings around them. You know, Timo Meyer has not looked like himself. Stefan Nason is not a number one winger. Right now,

he's playing on Heeshire's line and he's playing great. This guy was a fourth liner in Carolina. He's a depth guy at the best. He's a checking line kind of guy. I just, I have concerns about Andre Palat's not really a top six guy anymore. He should be on the third line.

Esper Bratt's great, but besides him, I mean, Dawson Mercer, who talking about a 15-20-goal guy. I'm not seeing an elite top six here. I'm seeing an incredible one-two punch at center and then some guys around them. This is not an elite. When you look at a team like Toronto or Florida, you see an elite top six. You see two outstanding lines, not just two outstanding centers. And I have, like, if on the devils, I'm looking to add some scoring punch in the top six. Yeah, I think it's got to be a certain kind of scoring too. I think when you have Hughes and Brat already in your top six.

You probably want a little heavier offense in there. And he sure is not the biggest guy either, although he is a really tough to play against player. I think that's, I mean, Meyer in theory is supposed to kind of be that guy, but I don't think you can lean all of that on one player, especially when you know you're going to have to go through the Florida's of the world, the Carolinas of the world, teams that will make you play hard, heavy game. Yeah, for sure.

The East is different. It used to be the West was the big heavy team with the old, like, L.A. Kings. they were the heavy rosters and then the east was more finesse. It kind of feels like that's traded a little bit. Like Florida has gone a long way towards like toughening up the Eastern Conference now and then the rest of the East kind of trying to match that. Whereas the West is the Colorado's and the Edmontons of the world, these teams that will just skate you to death.

So it's been interesting to watch that dynamic kind of flip in the last couple of years. No from our producer that yes, the devils are in first in the East right now, but it's because they've got a heavy games played advantage. By points percentage, they would be more of fifth, which I think is more reflective, I think, of the conversation. That's such a Rangers fan thing to do from our producer, by the way, just to throw in. Just to get a little cut in on the devils.

All right, so let's get back at him here, Las, because I think the Rangers have maybe some of the most fatal flaws of any of the teams we're going to talk about right now today. Yeah, they just, they've given up six goals four times and they gave up five another time. They just leak high danger chances. Whenever you watch them play, just odd man rushes and just, just. These guys just wide open in front of the head. Just Sturkin and Quick have been bailing them out, and we've seen teams survive that way before when you have truly great goaltending,

but they just, they don't look like a contender. Entering this season, they were one of the big ones that we were always talking about. They just don't have that feel of a contender right now because good teams exploit them very badly on defense. Here are the teams who have given up more expected goals per 60 in the New York Rangers so far this season. Anaheim, Pittsburgh,

Montreal, San Jose, and Vegas. Vegas is pretty good team. I don't think that's a club you want to be in otherwise. No, that's not the grouping you want to be in if you fancy yourself a legitimate contender. No. I think when you do have the best goal in the world, like maybe you're a little more okay with that.

Like you're saying, okay, yeah, like this is just kind of, this is our superpower. We're going to, any given team that's building a. roster has to know that something is probably going to be a weakness. And if you have the best goal in the world, I guess giving up expected goals is something you're maybe a little more okay with because you got a better chance of weathering them than other teams. They do have, you know, they're still putting up great underlying offensive numbers. They're still among the league leaders in that. But it's gotten a little bit loose there. And I don't know what the real

culprit for that is, the band of jazz is getting up there and age a little bit more. You know, the blue line I don't think has been quite as good as we've been accustomed to it being in recent seasons, but it's at least a concern. Yeah, I mean, when we see that before, when you have a truly elite goalie, you maybe achieve a little bit more on offense. Maybe you just, you know, we can afford to get away with this a little bit more because we got him back there. But that's not a winning formula.

Like, you don't, the, the way you win in this league is having a great goalie and then protecting him on top of that. And then you win every game two to one in the playoffs. And that's how you win the Stanley Cup. You don't win the Stanley Cup with these offensive shootouts. And the Rangers are not, like, their offensive numbers are okay, but they're not scoring at like an incredibly high rate either. The kind of middle of the pack in terms of offense in actual goals would still matter more

than expected goals. So like I just, again, like if you tell me that in April, the Rangers are going to be flying high and soaring again, I totally buy it. That is a team that can still put it together. But the way they look right now, they just, they feel like a second tier team right now. Let's go to Vegas. We just talked about them. And I wonder which team would you rather be right now as we sit here on November 25th?

Would you rather be the Rangers or the Golden Knights? I would rather have Igor Shestirkin and goal. That's what it comes down to for me. We're going to have a similar conversation, I think, on Vegas, and it does come down to the fact that they do not have Igor Shisterken. The lineup hasn't had quite as much juice. They are still having a ton of success. They're in first place in the Pacific Division so far,

and that one is not based on points percentage, so don't try to fact check me, Chris. But we're, you know, I do think it's at least a concern for Vegas. that they're giving up so much danger defensively. Yeah, and when, you know, Aidan Hill has been terrific in the postseason, but can he recapture that 20, 23 magic to the point where he can overcome that kind of team defense?

And, you know, Mark Stone's health, is he going to be able to come back and be Mark Stone? He was having one of the best stretches of his career earlier this year, and now he's hurt again. It's always hurt. And he's one of those guys that really kind of ringleads that team defense. And without him, it's a different-looking team. This lineup looks a lot more top-heavy

without Mark Stone. All that depth that you have kind of starts thinning out real quick and you're not quite to Colorado's level of top heavy, but this does not look like that relentless four-line deep Vegas team that we're used to seeing. And there's even a little bit of the Edmonton conversation there too where, you know, right now if Stone isn't playing, you know, you're asking a lot of Eichel, Hurdle, and Barboshev,

you know, and Nick Waugh a little bit too. Like, Keegan Colzar and Cal Burke are two names that I'm seeing on the Daily Faceoff top six right now. Like that's not what you want, what you've gotten accustomed to. for the Vegas Golden Knights, I don't think. No, I think you're absolutely right. And, you know, I look at a team like Dallas, which is let's get to Dallas next.

Dallas to me is like the perfect team. Like they are built just top to bottom. They have everything you need to succeed in the NHL. They've got the defense. They've got the offense. They've got the depth. They've got the goalies. But they have flaws too, right?

They got a lousy power play right now. Jason Robertson just has fallen off of a cliff offensively after those 240 goals seasons. You know, Wyatt Johnson, he's starting to put it together a little bit, but he had a slow start. Nobody's scoring on defense. Miro Heiskinin is at like half his usual pace. Thomas Harley's scoring is down. Lubushkin's score scoring is down. Like, on paper, the Dallas Stars are still the best team in the league.

But I'm starting to wonder if they can put it all together right now. Yeah, I've always kind of felt like Dallas is the maybe the least flawed team in the NHL just because when I look at the names on their roster and the places they fall, yeah, would you love like a mega-stop? at Forward at, you know, Robertson, I think at times has flirted with kind of being at the fringes of that. I thought he was there. I thought two years ago he was going to be a top five player in this league.

It just, it hasn't happened so far this year, but you've seen that the emergence of Hawaii Johnson, you know, we like Logan Stank of it, and you look at the lineup and you just feel like it has that 2024 Florida Panthers thing going for it, where it just looks like,

man, how are you going to beat this team? There's no, there's no glaring issue here, especially with Auden Jernkel, with Heiskin and on D. there's just a lot going for them. So this was the one that I did not have an obvious fatal flaw for,

other than, I suppose, you know, you can look at the standings and say, well, then why are they behind the jets in the wild right now? This is what I'm saying is they're not really living up to what they should be. They should be. They should have won the Stanley Cup last year, if you ask me. They were a perfect team last year, too. And for some reason, they haven't been able to kind of really put it together and match what's on paper on the ice.

They are a very good team, have been for a long time, will be for a long time. But there are flaws on this team. This team is not playing up to its potential, and Jason Robertson's a big part of that. I'd like to see him go get a second pair, if we're talking about upgrades here. But beyond that, I do think. When they had Chris Anav, last year, it seemed like they had put it all together, right? Yeah. So maybe that is, maybe that is kind of the missing piece for them so far. All right, let's go, let's stay in the Central then. Let's go with Winnipeg. And we know what their greatest strength is in Connor Hellebuck. What's their flaw at this point for you?

I don't know. History, they've never accomplished anything. They've won two playoff rounds in their entire history since coming back. I think they've won two playoff games in the last four years combined. There's like almost no playoff experience on this team of any real substance. So, you know, we could talk all along. They look great. On the ice, they've got no flaws right now. But in the playoffs, if they're going up against a Vegas, if they're going up against a Dallas or a Colorado, are you really?

going to, you know, see them as the favorites, no matter how well they do in the regular season, just because we've never seen them do it when it matters the most. Yeah, I mean, and even when you just look at their build, it just kind of does look like the classic regular season team, which I know is, it's kind of the ultimate pejorative, I guess you could give it a really good team in the NHL, is that, yeah, it looks good right now, but how is it going to look in the playoffs? Like, I would still take Dallas over them in a seven-game playoff series. I don't know that I'm there with Minnesota, who will get to next after.

this. But I still don't, as good as they've been, they've been the best record in the NHL so far to date. And they have the best goalie in the NHL, but I think they ask the most of their goalie right there, I suppose, with the Rangers to our last conversation, as anyone. And I think in the playoffs, that's a really hard way to live. You know, Connor and Eilers are both tremendous players. Connor's having an outstanding season. But his style is the one that tends to be, when you get to the playoffs, you just don't quite know how much it's going to translate. another lousy penalty kill too. I mean, I feel like you need to have one, right?

You need to have a really good power play or a really good penalty kill to succeed in the playoffs. And I think a PK is more valuable. Having a great shutdown PK that you can rely on is more important to me than having a great power play. So I always cast kind of a wary eye at teams that don't kill penalties. Because if you run into a team like Edmonton,

you're just toast, absolute toast. So a team without a good PK makes me nervous and they don't have a good PK right now. All right, let's go to Minnesota to wrap up this segment. Yes, I know there's one very major team that we've forgotten here. We're saving that one for the final segment with Jesse Granger, but the Minnesota wildaz. Another atrocious penalty kill, like staggeringly bad penalty kill.

It seemed like they had righted to the ship. They'd given up one power play goal in there in like seven games span, and they just gave up two-on-two tries to Calgary last night. This is a team that's riding the PDO train right now. This feels like Vancouver last year, right? where it's a pretty good team that's playing great and is just, they're like basically a break-even team in terms of expected goals, but they're plus 19 at five-on-five.

That is not sustainable. This is a good team. I don't mean to say that Minnesota is all smoke and mirrors. This is a good team. Are they this good? Are they contender good? I think they have the same amount of regulation losses as Winnipeg. Are they that good?

I don't know. This feels like a team that's going to regress to the mean at least a little bit. they'll make the playoffs, they'll be a threat, but they are riding that PDO train right now. Well, I actually think it's a top six scorer. I mean, maybe I'm confusing biggest need with fatal flaw here. But when you look at their underlying defensive numbers, I know that's different from the penalty kill, what you're talking about, but at 5-on-5, they are the best defensive team by expect the goals against in the NHL, right?

So that's been real. But I want to see, to your point about the PDO stuff, that goes with shooting percentage and with safe percentage. I want to see a scoring forward added to be a little more confident they're going to be able to keep up the production that they've had so far more so than I'm worried about the penalty kill, which I think does kind of ride waves. There's adjustments you can make, and I'm not particularly worried about their personnel to penalty kill. So, yeah, maybe there's an adjustment to be made there. I'm worried about the personnel to keep scoring. And is Philip Gustafson?

Is he really this good? Is this what we can expect long term from him? Or is he riding a hot street right now? It's so hard when you have guys who haven't proven it yet. it's so hard to read into what they're doing this early in the season. They look great. This is a good team. Kareil Kaprizov is an absolute megastar, absolute heart.

He's probably my heart trophy winner right now if I'm voting. But can they sustain this? And then can they do it in the playoffs? That's the concern. Well, this is kind of the gustavs in that we saw two years ago. It's just so different than the gustavs than we saw last year. Exactly. I mean, there were years that Sergey Barbrowski was garbage.

And then there's years where he's unbeatable. So it's it's goaltending, man. We'll talk about that with Jesse. Goaltending is voodoo, and nobody really knows what's going on there. And we don't know what he's going to look like in the playoffs. All right. Let's take our pause there then, and we'll come back with Jesse Granger. All right, we are back and we are joined now by the athletics, Jesse Granger for Granger Things, presented by BetMGM.

And Jesse, today we've been talking about each contender's potential fatal flaw. And we left one for you because I have a feeling where this is going to go for the Carolina Hurricanes. Yeah, and it feels like I've been having this conversation for years with this team. And it's funny. And what's funny is I remember there was a point early in this season when I'm watching Heodor Kachekhov play. And I was like, this is finally the year that I don't think I'm going to be asking for the hurricanes to trade for a goalie because I'm actually believing in Kachetkov.

And now here we are. And Freddie Anderson goes down with a serious injury. He's week to week. They don't know when he's going to be back. Kachetkov took a huge hit in their overtime game the other night. I'm seeing reports out of practice this morning that he's in concussion protocol. So now the hurricanes are without both of these guys for who knows how long. We know Anderson's is a while.

Concussions are weird that he could be back in a game. He could be back in a month. We don't know when Kachatkoff will be back. But it is a very interesting situation for a team that is playing as good as any team in the league right now. And now their two top goalies are Spencer Martin, who in limited action is basically produced an 890 safe percentage for three different teams in the NHL. His biggest chance was Vancouver a couple years ago behind Thatcher Demko. I think he played like 30 games. And it did not go well for him.

I think he was last in the league and goals saved above expected. So he's had some hype coming in. I think he was like a third round pick. It has not worked out well for Spencer Martin in the NHL. And then the guy behind him is Yanif Peritz, who's played 12 minutes. of NHL action in his career. So you made that name up. Don't lie.

It does sound made up. But it's going to be interesting to see what the hurricanes do because do they react immediately and go try to get a goalie to just keep them afloat during this? And obviously the record's great. They probably can survive with Spencer Martin if they have to. But I don't know how confident this team can be that Pachetkov and Freddie Anderson

are going to be healthy when they need them. to be because they just haven't been healthy very often over the past couple seasons. What do you guys think? Like, do you think the hurricanes just based on, like, I mean, they're giving up the fewest shots, the fewest high danger chances. This team defends really well. They have the puck the entire game. They do everything well.

Like, how all in do you think this team should be on looking for a goalie? Well, I mean, they're a team that they're a system team. And it doesn't seem to matter who they lose and what position they lose. They're still successful at it. The fact that they are still at the top of the league right. now, despite all the pieces they lost over the off season is a testament to that. But, you know, for years we've been talking about they don't have finishers and they don't have goalies.

Last year, they finally went out and got the finisher and Jake Gensel. It didn't make much of a difference. So it's got to be the goalies, right? Like, that's the missing piece here. They need an elite goalie. They've never really had an elite goalie since like Cam Ward's run a hundred years ago. So I think they absolutely should be going out. That division is there for the taking right now.

There's no dominant teams in that division. They can run away with it if they get the right goalie in there. And Freddie Anderson, we see this time and time again. You can't rely on Freddie Anderson. He's really good when he's healthy. He's not that good in the playoffs sometimes. And he's not healthy a lot of the times. They got to go out and get somebody.

I mean, who's out there right now that can be had in a trade? Yeah, so it's interesting. The goalie market is there's not a lot of options out there right now. At least that's what it appears from the outside. Chris Johnson's trade board just came out. last week and the only goalie on there is John Gibson and I feel like we've been talking about John Gibson for three years now as the goalie to trade for. It does seem like this like it feels like he's going to get traded more now than it has in past years just because of Lucas Dostall's

emergence for Anaheim and like he's proving to them that he is the goalie of the future. They've thought he was the goalie of future for a couple years but he's really showing that he's not a backup goalie in the NHL. Like he is starter quality at the very worst. I think Lucas Stostall might even be like top tier starter quality. But he's definitely shown them enough to be confident to move Gibson for less. It's a lot of money to bring on. That's the thing. Carolina, they do have Freddie Anderson's contract expiring at the end of this season.

So that helps. He would probably, they'd probably have to send that back the other way in order to make this deal work. But I do think that those two things work. The question is, do you believe John Gibson's an elite goalie? and the people I, like speaking with goalie coaches around the league, I'm working on a project right now. Most don't think John Gibson still has it, but there are some that Deuce think that John Gibson still has that elite level in him. It's the interesting thing with Gibson is he's kind of old school.

Like, he's old enough that he's still kind of unpredictable. He's not the perfect technical, like goalie that you see most of nowadays, the younger guys. He's still got a little bit of that old school game left in him. And I think that the positive to that is like when he's feeling it, when his flow is good. and he's in rhythm, he's really hard to score on. But when he's not feeling good, that rhythm goes away. Carolina has a way of making their goalies feel good. So I do think that there's, like, if there's a team out there that can get John Gibson

back to that elite level of play, it's probably behind the Carolina Hurricanes. But that's a big contract to take on, and there's huge risk there. So Carolina does have like that advantageous system for, I feel like, you know, that you're not going to see that many shots. But when you talk about rhythm, that actually sounds like to me, maybe that's a team that isn't going to give you that much rhythm. That's very fair. They don't give up very many shots,

but when you look at the expected goals, that's an interesting thing with Carolina. So fewest shot attempts allowed per game, fewest shots allowed per game. I think they're right there with L.A. But then expected goals, they're still good, but it's like they're like the sixth best team in the league, which tells you that maybe the shots that they are giving up are of higher quality.

So that's a good argument against maybe going with the rhythm goalie. There's some other options out there, Max, you know these too well. I think Detroit, it's going to depend on, and like the timing is weird because right in Carolina needs a goalie right now. And Detroit is probably still in the decision-making process of whether they would want to trade those two goalies. But I think that like as it gets closer to the deadline, I think that Cam Talbot and Alex Lyon are both interesting decisions for Detroit. Talbot is playing excellent. And he and he's shown that like especially last year behind L.A.,

which to me, Carolina and L.A. are very similar. Like, they play stingy defense. They don't let you get through the neutral zone. They don't give up a ton of shots. And Cam Talbot really thrived behind that King's team last year, put up the best numbers he has in years. And he's putting up good numbers again this year behind Detroit. He's such an aggressive goalie in terms of, like, where he is in the crease.

Like, he's way out there, heels at the top of the crease, the whole game. And against a team like, or sorry, behind a team like Carolina that doesn't give up a lot of shots, I think that's actually a good mix. He takes away so many shots. like where there's no net for you to shoot at no matter, like there is no hole to find because he's so far out in his crease. So I like Cam Talbot. And the one that I would like to throw out there that I don't see his name around. And I understand why because the stats haven't been good. But McKenzie Blackwood in San Jose, I think if you're a team out there that's like,

we need elite goaltending. Well, nobody's trading elite goalies. Like everyone who's got one isn't giving him up. I think if there's someone out there who isn't elite, but has it in them to possibly put a miraculous Aden Hill like run together, Jordan Bennington like run together. I think McKenzie Blackwood has that. He is super, super athletic. He looks like an NFL linebacker who can do the splits. It hasn't worked out for him in the NHL. Like, I'm not going to sit here and tell you, McKenzie Blackwood's been amazing. It hasn't. He's got below 900 safe percentage everywhere he goes. New Jersey drafted him highly. It didn't work out there. In San Jose, his underlying numbers, his goals saved above expected are amazing, like, spectacular,

especially considering the defense he's playing behind. But the safe percentage still isn't great because he's playing behind one of the worst teams in the league. I just think with the athleticism, and I think he's grown up a little bit over the last couple years in San Jose, I think the mental game is starting to come around. I think that's actually starting to catch up to how just ridiculously talented he is physically. If you put McKenzie Blackwood in the right situation, I could see that guy getting hot, finding a rhythm, all of a sudden getting the confidence, and nobody can score on him for a month. And that's the story of the Carolina hurricanes. I think that is within the realm of possibilities.

Is it likely? Probably not. But I think that there is a flyer there to take. You know, it's a testament to the machine that Eric Tulski is built in Carolina that we're talking about an 890s day percentage guy or an ancient guy from Anaheim. And they're still considered heavy favorites in their division and beyond. What are the numbers in how Vegas views Carolina? Yeah, and so like these numbers, obviously, I think if Kachetkov's out for a while and all a sudden they get a month of Spencer Martin, I think these numbers will probably adjust at that

point. But for now, when we haven't seen them play with Spencer Martin for very long, because the goalies just got hurt, yeah, they're way up there. I mean, this team is dominant. They are plus 110 to win the division right now. So basically even money, which is pretty insane. this early in the hockey season for anything in hockey because the sport's so random. For a team to be plus 110 to win their division, the next closest are New Jersey and the Rangers,

and they're both like plus 280, plus 320. They're nowhere near Carolina in terms of winning that division. And Hurricanes are also the favorites to win the President's Cup, or sorry, President's Trophy. Be impressive, they won a golf tournament. That'd be pretty cool. Plus 400 to win that. We know this team is dominant in the regular season. They're right up there with Edmonton amongst the favorites to win the Cup too. I think they're second at plus 900 right now to win the Stanley Cup.

So there's a lot of faith in this team. They've been doing this for years. I think Kachetkov is good enough if he's healthy. I just don't know if you can count on him at this point. And if Freddie Anderson is going to miss a lot of time, even if Kachikov's fine, I think the type of goalies we're talking about, this isn't going out and trading for Igor Shosturken or something crazy. The type of goalies we've talked about, I think would be fine to add a long,

side Kachetkov, even if he is going to be back relatively soon. All right. Great stuff, Jesse. That is going to do it for us. Thanks for listening to this episode of The Athletic Hockey Show. Please, if you're enjoying the show, leave us a rating, preferably a five-star rating. And Sean, Sean and Frankie have the last episode of the athletic hockey show this week on Wednesday. They will talk to you then.