The Athletic Hockey Show - Five Key NHL Off-season trends, which NHL team has improved the most this off-season and Ilya Samsonov's arbitration filing

Episode Date: July 19, 2023

On the Wednesday roundtable, Rob Pizzo and Shayna Goldman talk about the five key NHL offseason trends that are emerging this summer, possible destinations for remaining free agents Vladimir Tarasenko, Jonathan Toews, Matt Dumba, Tomas Tatar, Martin Jones and Anthony DeAngelo, possible landing spots for on the block defensemen Brett Pesce, the arbitration filling for Maple Leafs RFA Ilya Samsonov, legal issues for Alex Galchenyuk and how Patrik Laine will fair with Mike Babcock as his head coach..Rob and Shayna welcome Dom Luszczyszyn from the Athletic to discuss his latest piece, Which NHL teams have improved the most this offseason? Rating all 32 teams. The crew discusses Dom's top three improved teams, and the bottom three that missed the opportunity to improve this off-season.Subscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowGo to grammarly.com/GO to download and learn more about GrammarlyGOHead to FACTORMEALS.com/nhlshow50 and use code nhlshow50 to get 50% off. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. What's going on, everybody? Welcome to the Athletic Hockey Show. Wednesday Roundtable Edition. I am Rob Beasel from Seabuse and Sports. Jesse and Rousseau, still away. Enjoying the summer. Have fun, boys.

I hope you're listening. But it's a good excuse to get Shana Goldman to come on. Pinch hitting as a co-host. How are you, Shana? I'm great. I can't believe Rousseau took off. Like, this is something else. I didn't know he knew what a vacation was.

It's not really a vacation. though. He's with a bunch of wild fans in Italy and apparently he brought his recording equipment and he's still actually working. Like he doesn't turn it off ever. Never. Like it's so funny. Like a lot of times we've been doing the show and we'll say, okay, we're going to record the podcast at noon. And he's doing an interview until 1159. We see him on the Zoom call. Then he does our show and then he immediately goes and does something else. You're like, calm down, man. Especially now that he has Joe. Like you have Joe Smith who can like run. a beat by himself and we've seen that right he crushed a forever Tampa Bay and now you have Joe and Russo together it's like you can't take a break now and he's still like no I can't or make a Jesse sound like he's super lazy too like Russo's such a hard worker so lazy Jesse's so lazy the man got married we'll cut him a break um so yeah they're just covered a cup winning team too so you know longest season out of anyone he deserves the break so uh they're out Shane is in Dom Lushin is going to be joining us in the second half of the show as well, because as always,

just starting shit on the athletic by posting what are those things called, numbers. It's not opinion, it's numbers, but whatever, people start losing their minds. But I'm going to, actually, I never do this, Shane. I'm going to start the show by quoting you because I thought one. Oh, God, what I do. Yeah, you did something that just, I think, is a perfect encapsulation of what this time of year is. you said, it's that time of the off season when the dust starts to settle. Dept charts are starting to take shape after an early flurry of trades in the offseason

around the drafting free agency. And it's that, it is that. Everything's starting to settle. We're starting to kind of figure things out. But it could also kind of be an interesting time of the year. Do you like this time of the year? Do you like the off season? It irks me.

I don't. I want some hockey. I'm already missing it. You know, this is the first off season where I'm like, yeah, I like it. I wish that we had things we get a little wilder around free agency day. So then like it felt like this was actually the calm because right now because things were so dull, it feels like the shoe's about to drop and it's like we can't just like fully chill out. But it's the first like off season where I'm like, no, I want this.

I want a couple weeks of this. Like I had two weeks of Wimbledon. I want a couple weeks of nothing now because like now I'm like fully like I want to be relaxed completely and recharge for more hockey because I'm tired. I'm done. I'm the hockey nerd that watches like old classic games. during this time. That's me too.

Yeah. That's the thing. That's the thing. I'm like, I need not to. There are certain games, too, that I feel like I watch every single summer. The 87 Canada Cup,

the Mario Gretzky one. I watch game three of the finals all the time. It's just, I don't know, it's a drug to me. I can't turn it off. But it does give us an opportunity to obviously talk offseason stuff.

I really enjoyed your piece about the offseason trends. Because I feel like we've been talking about this, you know, going into the off season. And maybe even over the last couple of years, certain things that we're starting to see that we're not used to seeing. Jesse Russo and I have talked a lot about how, man, we're so used to seven and eight year deals in free agency, and we're

just not seeing that. That's one of your five trends. You had performance bonuses, long term, low AAVLD deals, short term, big money contracts, trading a player a year early, and sign in trades. It's the last two I kind of want to touch on. Trading players a year early is something I've always wondered why GMs don't do more often. When you've got a player in the last year of their contract, you know they're going to be a free agent. Why in God's name do you wait till trade deadline day at three o'clock Eastern time to get a deal that probably doesn't work? Your thoughts on just this new trend we're seeing where GM's like, oh, okay, it's the off season. This guy has no plans on extending. Let's start getting something now. Yeah, it just feels like there have been key examples

of players who walked for nothing, right? Like, you go back even to Mark Stone. The senators did not get what they should have gotten from the Golden Knights for one of the best players in the league. And it held up the market elsewhere, which nobody liked. And if you're Ottawa in that situation, like, maybe they thought they were getting a good deal. Like, I'm sorry, that's a terrible deal.

No matter how you look at it and the fact that you lost leverage as, you know, things proceeded, like everybody knows that you're going to have to make a move to trade a player. And then that started to change a little bit with like the John Tavares of the world and the Johnny Godreau's of the GM like I don't have to trade that player. So maybe GM started gaining the leverage back in a sense, right? Like the Islanders could have traded Tavares. They chose not to. The flames obviously could have Johnny Godro, but he was their best chance of the postseason that year. It's so tough. But the fact that they walk for nothing, you see the ripple effect it had on the teams. Look at the islanders with them. Yes, bars all could step up. But like they didn't have another Tavares. And you look at, you know, the flames reeling and obviously it was more than just Johnny Gagrower. but you have to look at that and try to learn from what other GMs do. We see trends come and go around the league all the time. So it just feels like that's a smart way to approach it. And if players are a little more vocal about what they want, and I know everybody will whine like, you know, Pierre Lueblood is a brat.

And sure, maybe he is. Who knows? I'm not one to say, you know, like, there's nothing wrong with saying, I might not want to spend the next eight years of my life somewhere. And that's how you have to look at it. So if you can be proactive and get something back, the Jets got something back.

Maybe it's not perfect, but it's better than nothing. And the same with Tofoli. If Tofoli's unsure he wants to stay, you shouldn't want that situation lingering. You shouldn't want a player who might not want to be there as a part of it. You want to start thinking of resolutions right now. So depending on who you are, like if you're at the Leafs and you don't know if Austin Matthews is going to say, you can't do anything about it because you need to let that ride out and try to figure out your own remedy for it. But in other cases, like, you need to try to move those players to ensure you get something back and to try to turn the page quicker so you can, you know, have that. like retool on the fly in a sense and really work on it on the fly instead of, you know,

waiting, losing out and then having to clean up your mess. I find GMs are getting more proactive as a whole. I mean, even I brought up trade deadline day for the longest time you'd see everyone wait until 255 on trade deadline day. And now what's happening? You know, the trade deadline shows have nothing to talk about because everything happened two to three weeks before trade deadline day. The waiting game isn't always the best way to go about it.

GMs are finally figuring it out. It's better. You know, you're not always going to get a better deal the longer you wait. If a good deal's there, and like you said, for me, it's a matter of just the distraction that comes with it. You know what I mean? Constantly being asked, if you've got a player in a big market where there's a lot of media, they're constantly going to be asked about contract situations over and over and over again. It's a distraction. If you can get rid of that distraction, if you get the deal that you want right now, go for it. number five in your list of sign and trades one thing that jumped out i was like holy shit that's that's true where he said matthew kachuk was the first true sign and trade i don't know why i feel like

we've had it around but it i think so too because we see the trades happen and the contract mark stone it followed five seconds later yeah but it's not a true sign and trade because of that eighth year which is you know such a way to sweeten the pot now when you can sign a player eight instead of seven, right? Sometimes. But like, it's a dicey one, but like in a way that's being proactive too. Like you just said, it's being proactive as handling that situation before the trade's even done.

It's ensuring it's completely done. And for some teams, that means getting that eighth year, which a lot of times can be regrettable. But if you're making a trade for a player, like a Matthew Kuch and your Gongfit were and Alex Sabrin Kat, like they were never going to reach unrestricted free agency. It's not like, oh, I'm waiting the year like a William Nealander. and then that eight years might become like regrettable. It's a little bit different.

If you're signing and trading for a 23 or 24 year, then you can get that eighth year. That's going to be valuable to you. Yeah, for sure. So if you're working with younger players, it's intriguing. But it's all about being proactive. Like that's the biggest thing in this league. I think so often we see reactive decisions.

And if you have that second to digest a move too, like if you see that someone trades for a player like Matthew Kachuk and signs them immediately, like now your focus isn't, well, if they can, it's you know immediately and it gives you more time to respond and react to it and you can like see how things shake out and you have the time to do this instead of it all happening as the buzzer sounds, nobody can make any moves anymore, like the trade deadline. Like when you have two weeks of trades leading up to the trade deadline, it gives you a chance to see a trade happen and then think about how best to respond to it

if you're in division or if that player's off the market instead of it's 256. and now we all have to scramble. So I feel like they kind of all bunched together in that sense because it's getting things done and giving other teams more of a chance to kind of figure out their situation. Because if a player gets traded at the deadline and they're not extended, right? You might think, well, maybe we can get them July 1st. Who's to say? Like, maybe they'll be available to know they're off the board they're gone.

I think it's going to help a lot of people out too. Speaking of that, still a lot unsigned free agents floating around out there. you got Vladimir Tarasenko, you got Dumba, you got Jonathan Taves. We've talked a lot about him over the last couple weeks, Paul Stassany, which one really jumps out to you where you're really kind of wondering where is this guy going to end up? Taranco has to be because I think he is probably the best available player left. And like, I think that there's teams that could use a player like that. I think the Rangers could obviously use him.

That's one player. Like I think Blake Wheeler checks off Patrick Kane's role in a sense. and if you bring in a player like Teres Angle that has the finishing talent and the ability to get to the slot, if you pair him with a really good playmaker. Like we've seen him bounce back from some really slow years. Obviously, he's still aging. He's still likely to decline. And we have to be realistic about like what he can do.

But he still is an effective player. He's still good off the rush. He's still good at scoring goals, which in today's game, that is what you need. So I want to see where he goes because, you know, now the Debrinket trade is done that whoever missed out on him, Michael, we need a goal score. Let's look at him. Ottawa could look at him. You know, he's, he's the most interesting one. And the fact that he changed agents to reset the process, it likely says he wasn't getting deals he wanted before. So now how's that going to change? I mentioned it last week that the former Chicago guys are for me, Taves and Kane.

Taves mainly because I think obviously with his experience, he could bring so much to a team that is kind of missing that piece and maybe has the young guys there to help out. But Kane, Let's talk about him for a second because that hip surgery is going to keep about four to six months, I believe it is. And he said he's in no rush. I'm going to, you know, rehab, get ready. And then December, I'll take a look at the standings and see who's the best fit, which is just, we don't see that very often in a cap world. You know what I mean? We just, now he's, he's in absolutely no rush and going to go to the best position to win, which I guess he's earned that situation.

but we probably won't know where Kane ends up until December now. I think that's smart by him. And I actually think it's taking a mistake out of another GM's hands, because I think signing him right now would be the wrong move. Hip resurfacing is a tough one for any player to recover from, especially a player who is at the later stages of his career. It's not a 24-year-old who's going to bounce back. You know, this is someone who's in his 30s.

We saw how, you know, his skating speed struggled. We know the lapses in his defensive game already that he had even at his peak. So, you know, to be a little more hesitant, is there a right thing and not be blinded by the name recognition of what or what you think he might be able to do? He's a player that, sure, maybe like, if you think Nikita Kutrapp when he came back from his hip injury and everybody was like talking all like, oh, look, he looks fine out there because he's scoring a ton of goals and he has a lot of points. They were all coming on the power play where he was super stationary. So you might want to see how he's rehabbing and then maybe see what your power play needs. If you need someone to be on the flank of the power play and you can say, don't move. just wait for the puck to come for you and distribute.

Like maybe you can find that ideal position for him to rehab on the fly. If you're in a comfortable enough playoff position, you can afford that. If you're a team on, you know, on the fringes of it, maybe you can't afford to go through his rehabbing on the ice because no matter how much he does off the ice and, you know, not in a game setting, it's not going to replace that game setting. So I think it's great for him, really smart decision by him, but it's, it takes a mistake away from a GM to make. I love that strategy.

Don't move. What do you all over to do out there, coach? Don't move. Don't move. Don't move. Yeah, on the power play, just get some confidence, get some stuff going, then at even strength, like shelter them until they have that, like, skating ability. But it takes, it takes a lot of time.

It's an injury. Like, I feel like people are so critical to jump at it because they look at the Kutrov situation because they were just blinded by the fact that he points. Like, that is one that I don't envy anyone that has come back from. Yeah, hockey players use their hip. They absolutely use their hip. You need it to skate. Yeah, you need it very much.

Two more things before we get to break and start talking to Dom. You wrote about Brett Pesci talking earlier about being proactive. Five destinations. If he does not sign that extension, he's in the last year of a six-year contract. You've got Dallas, Buffalo, Toronto, Nashville, and Edmonton. I'm going to put you on the spot to narrow your 5-1. Which one? Where does he go if he doesn't sign that extension in Carolina?

I think the best fit in the team that should be in on him the most is Dallas. I feel like he's like the perfect fit for them in every which way. It's just can you, you know, like make space financially. The most likely one is the team that has the space and has the assets and that would be Buffalo for me. And I still think despite what they did this off season, there's still room for an upgrade on that right side. I think Buffalo is going to be so fun to watch this year. They're already so fun. They are.

But I mean, this year, you actually feel like that lump of coal is turning into a bit of a diamond. So I'm looking forward to watching a lot of savor games. Last thing before we go to break, Alex Kelchanyuk entering the NHL, NHLPA's player assistance program. This is kind of just an ugly story, Shana. You know, arrested last week, according to the police report, he was very abusive towards the police officers, was using slurs, was using saying his connections back in Russia. threatening, you know, the lives of these police officers. I'm not going to really break down what I think of the, I think the facts speak for themselves,

but you really hope someone could just get better if this is the path they're going on right now because, I mean, when he entered the NHL, just so much promise and now look what we're talking about. Yeah, he is one of the most interesting and oddest career paths, like imaginable in like recent years. I hope the best for him. hope he gets well, gets the help that he needs.

And I'm kind of intrigued to see how this situation does unfold. Like, does the NHLPA get involved? Because it sounds like they're contemplating it and like where it goes from here with like the contract termination. There's like, I think. Yeah. I think it'll be, it could be like precedent studying for other players. It's always interesting what the PA does and doesn't get involved in.

So like this one, like I just want to see where it goes. And hopefully it's a positive resolution for all at this point. Yeah. You know, your PA. supposed to stick with you regardless of what happened. But the more I read about this story, the more you go, oh, this is just tough for them to really come out and say, you can't terminate his contract. Well, take a look at the police report. We'll see there. So like you said, hopefully he gets the help that he needs. We're going to get some help from Dom to explain his rankings,

32 teams, what they did in the off season. That's coming up after the break. So, Shana, last night, me and Jeff Domet, our producer, we're texting each other. And he's telling me what we're you know, going to talk about on the show. And he's like, oh, Dom's coming on in the second segment. I said, oh, it's great. He said, what do we want to talk to him about? I mean, it's that time of the year as we talked about,

you know, what specifically do we want to say? And we kind of went back and forth ideas. And I said, why don't we just talk about teams now that the dust is settling off season, what teams slash GMs did the best job, what teams slash GMs didn't, you know? And it goes, great, we'll do that. I jump on the athletic this morning from Dom Lush, what NHL teams have improved the most this off season,

rating all 32 teams. Jeff texts me, was he listening in on our conversation? That's exactly what we talked about. So timing could not be better. Dom, welcome to the show. Yeah, happy to be here. And I'm glad I finished that 6,000 word behemoth in time for the show.

It was a behemoth. It took me a while to go through, but great stuff as always. And let's just get this out of the way because I feel like every time you come on the show, we say this. the commenters going crazy as if you just, you know, tried to turn hockey on its end.

This is very much based on the model and very much based on goal differential, isn't it? Yeah. I try to measure each player's impact on goal differential with a new version of an old model that is now called net rating. And the basic idea was to combine all the players that are in, all the players that are out and measure how much. better each team is. And there are so many other factors that go into how much better team will be next season. There is injuries. There is internal improvement. There is declines from old players. And those things aren't accounted for. I say as much in the intro, but reading the intro has

become a very difficult thing. And yeah, it's a 6,000 more behemoth, but that's because I want every fan of their favorite team to have something worth reading. I don't want to go in there and write 20 words each for teams. I know how fans operate. They go and scrolls their favorite team. And it's better for them to read 200 words than 50 or something like that. So I wanted to give detail. And that's why it's always a bit annoying when I go in the comments and people accuse me of

click page just because they didn't read the intro. No. No, no one will. Read the intros. Just read the intro. We know this. How many times people yell at me. They're like, Dom, why do you hate my name?

And I'm like, I'm not dumb. Read the intro. Besides the fact that we have totally different writing styles and you can tell by like the little Canadianisms that I am not Dom. I spelled defense with an S. That is not good enough. So reading is hard. Yeah. My favorite is when we do previews now and it's me, you and Sean and all the comments, even though the byline says, Dom, Shana, Sean, it'll be like, screw you, Dom.

How dare you say all these things? And Sean and Shana get off scot-free despite writing one-third of the piece. Yeah, no, we take pride in that, that we don't get the shit that you do. But it is funny because the things like commenters will like keep track of and hold on to you. Like, I'll still get comments to be like, well, you had Bobby or eight. So I can't trust your your analysis anymore. Like I still think that. That one's fair though.

That one's fair though. You got to own that forever. I own that. I own that. I defend that one to the death. That's fine. You know what? If you got a hot take, as long as you keep defending.

it that I can respect it. I can respect it. But like we said, this one's based on numbers. What do you say, Shane? I'll just pick his brain on the top three and the bottom three. I'd love to talk about. Dallas, number one, obviously the Dushain acquisition, who's getting paid by two teams this year, lucky guy, is kind of the big factor there. Explain the Dallas number one ranking. Yeah, I was personally a bit surprised. And I think a lot of the ranking, it's hard. It's easy to recall the guys were added. It's less easy to account for the players that are leaving. And addition by subtraction is a huge thing when you're looking at which teams are improving.

It's not even the fact that they got Matt Duchenne. It's that they threw Luke Glenn Denning into the sun. They said, you're not coming back. We don't need you anymore. And it's an understandable thing considering he had shocking to me. I didn't know this. He had the lowest five on five points per 60 since 2000. 2015-16 season.

Mind-boggling. And you can say Glenn Denning is this great defensive specimen, and he still is. He still brings value in that way. But when you're that much of a zero offensively, you are going to cost your team's games over the long run. Glenn Denning is rated as, I think, one of the lesser players in the league. And just getting rid of him is a big deal for Dallas's depth. And the other thing is obviously Duchenne. I think he's still a strong offensive player.

And on Dallas, he won't have to be the best offense player. He can be the fourth fiddle. He can be the fifth best guy. And that, I think, can go a long way in terms of, I think, extracting the most value out of him. Dallas during playoffs, they try to get Max Domi to be that guy. And I don't think Max Domi is as good offensively. And he is also much worse defensively. So I think it's just a huge upgrade in that vein.

Also, like the different positions, right? Like you have Max Domi coming in to Dallas and they wanted him as a center where we know he's not very good. And Duchin, like, it's like everyone's accepted. Like he's better as a winger and that's fine. And when you're not paying eight by eight for someone who's supposed to be a center as a wing, like it's a big difference of values. I think with Duchin, we have to like learn to think about him differently. Yeah.

And like even if he is better on the wing, I would still take him as a center compared to Max Domi as a center as a center or a like he he's not good as a center on Nashville when he's the top center might be a little different in Dallas if he's the second or third line center instead and they obviously have Sagan a center sometimes Ben as center sometimes whatever else they do I feel like that's a weird lineup there where you don't you never know who's playing center in Dallas of then Rupé I was really curious to see where Detroit landed when I saw the headline and read the intro like you should when you have a new article from Dom I can't read all the additional and subtractions because it would take up the whole show.

But obviously at the top of the list is DeBringit. And just a lot of depth with this team. And this is a team where I think a lot of Red Wing fans are kind of, two years in a row, really, they've made a lot of offseason moves. They're kind of saying, is this the time? Can we start flirting with a playoff spot? How patient do Redwood fans have to be, do you think? I think it really depends on how DeBrinke and Larkin fit together.

I think part of the issue with the Red Wings is that, their best player is Dylan Larkin and a lot of other teams have a better player than Dylan Larkin. And after Dylan Larkin, it's even worse. I don't know if you can be a contender to Brinkett is your second best guy. And we saw last year with Ottawa, he was their third best guy and they couldn't make the playoffs either. And now he's coming in to an even larger role, larger responsibility with the Red Wings. And maybe he works really well with Larkin. They have this immediate chemistry and Dichwight finally has that.

good enough high-end group, but I think you're going to add all the depth in the world, as long as your best players pale in comparison to other contending teams, it's going to be a really tough battle. I'll press you with Eisenman with the moves since taken over there. I mean, I feel like he went to school and now he's putting it all to use. You know what I mean? Like, I just, he had such a long apprenticeship, you know,

with his time with Detroit, then over to Tampa. I just look at what Detroit's doing, and these are going to be years where we may go back and look at. Yeah, for sure. I think, I think the biggest thing is that I would imagine Eisenman probably wanted to be even more patient, and they just did not get any lottery luck whatsoever when they were during their lean years. And now that they're trying to take the next step, they're making, I think, some strong moves to get there. It's just they still are missing those super high-end guys that put a team over the top and make them contenders. And I think as long as they don't have those pieces. It's going to be

tough for Detroit to take that next step. It's possible cider gets there next season, and this is all moot. It's possible Raymond bounces back from a sophomore slump, and he fits well with Larkin to Brinkin. All of it doesn't matter, but I think

depth can only get you so far, and we saw that last season when Detroit also had the best offseason of any team, and it didn't end up mattering too much, because there's still a team flirting with 80 points near the bottom of the Atlantic. That's the thing though. Like for as many moves as they did,

you have to like remember where the bar originally was set and like how hard they still have to go. Like they're a team with all these assets. It feels like another to brinket like trade is the key here. Like you have the one big move we have to. But I have to wonder if like, yeah, I think this is just. Or we need another one.

Step two in the process. And I think the Red Wings themselves know they're still not. quite there yet. I'm not sure fans are as patient. I think that's the issue. They see other teams rebuild relatively quickly and that all, it really does come down to lottery luck, which Detroit didn't really have. And if things were a bit different there, if they draft, say, Quinn Hughes over Philip Zadena, then maybe this is a playoff team. But right now as it stands, I think they're still on the outside looking in and they're going to be fighting pretty hard with Buffalo and Ottawa

and even some of the older teams like Pittsburgh and the Islanders for that last spot. Dom, you're based where I am. You're in Toronto, I'm just outside of Toronto. If I had told you like three months ago that we'd be talking about the off-season moves of interim GM Kyle Dubas of the Pittsburgh Penguins, you probably would have said them nuts, right? But they're number three on your list. May not have been huge names, but definitely significant.

Yeah, and I think that's the, the biggest strength of Dubus is he can clean things up and find big wins around the margins. That was, I think, the biggest problem with Pittsburgh last season. Their bottom six was awful. Brian Dumlin wasn't cutting it on the top pair. And those were fixable issues because a lot of the players that they had in those roles were free agents this year and they could move on from them. the big thing is that none of these names are flashy or big, like to brink it by any means,

but they are all marginal improvements in some way that should make Pittsburgh a better team next year, more complete team, and one that can hopefully make the playoffs if their top guys are still good. Riley Smith, I think most people take him over Jason Zucker. He just won a cup with Vegas. He is still a great score and depth role. and sorry, now middle six role, and he's still someone who can drive play. Sucker had a nice season, but I don't know, I wouldn't trust him to do what Smith does.

And I think the big one is Graves over Dumlin. Dumlin looked just way out of his element last year in the top pair, and maybe he'll be better in a lower role. But Graves showed last year that with the Devils, he can take on those tough minutes and be a net positive as a defensive player, and I think that'll be a perfect fit next to Chris Letang. Shana, before we go to the bottom of the list, do you have anything from the middle you wanted to ask Dom about?

Because my next is number 30, 31, and 32, which pissed off a lot of the commenters. You know what? I actually found someone that was, like, still towards the top, really interesting. I was surprised to see the Islanders line 6. And like, when I read the blur, because that's what you do instead of just, you know, reading the ranking, it does make sense because here we're saying, you know,

Josh Bailey being gone is a huge positive. And it absolutely is. It's just the contract situation is what I keep like bringing my head. head back to, but like for the purposes of this exercise, and I feel like this is what's so important is understanding like what is being measured here, right? It's not the fact that Engval and Mayfield got seven year contracts. It's who is added and subtracted. But I feel like this is one that like Islander fans won't hate you for for a change. I feel like Dom's got haters. Dom's got haters in 32 cities and lovers do. No, with the Islanders are tough. Hators in every area code,

but Long Island has a special place in hell for me, I think. Thank you. Big Long Island hater. That's really nice of you. Meanwhile, your bestie is from Long Island. That's fine. Well, thankfully, when I was in New York, I didn't have to actually visit you there. You came to New York, New York.

You were in Queens. That is not New York, New York. You went to Queens to Sydney. It's one of the boroughs. Wow. Now we're debating New York. All right, let's get to the bottom. I thought your analysis of the Leafs was exactly what I've been saying since.

free agency, you know, kind of wrapped up, it's still going obviously, but you know, you're kind of making three trades with Bertuzi instead of bunting, Dome instead of O'Reilly, Klingberg, instead of Gustafson, and Ryan Reeves, I just don't get it. I've been saying that since free agency. And when you read up like, well, I guess I'm on the same page as Dom. You're in this area, like I said, so you hear all the pundits and everybody talking about their moves. Leafs at number 30.

Yeah. I like I don't hate the the first three moves that they did obviously Ryan Reeves is a write-off that one's terrible I don't hate it because I think Bertuzzi and Domi have a bit of edge and ratiness to their game our mutual friends Steve Zemis has always said the Leafs need to be bigger jerks and they accomplish that with Bertuzi and Domi I think I think Bertuzi's an improvement over bunting. I think we saw what he did in Boston

and once he got to a stronger team, he's had a pretty strong history of being a play driver and someone who can score and put up points. So I like the bet there and I think next to Matthews, Martin, Tavares, Nielander,

wherever they put him, he should be a fantastic fit and improve on what bunting did. I think the bigger issue is the other two where if you wanted a risky offensive defenseman, Gusifson was right there for much less. And obviously the handiness doesn't work out.

And Gusifson doesn't have the name brand recognition or pedigree of Klingbird. But I don't see that as a huge improvement based on how awful defensively Klingberg was last season. He was, he had one of the worst defensive seasons we've seen in a long, long time. And I'm fine with the bet because I think Leaves can rehabilitate that.

And maybe, maybe there's a chance that the old Klingberg, comes back for this season and they have two strong offensive defensemen in Klingberg and Riley. In terms of ceiling, you obviously take Klingberg. I'm just worried about just how low

that floor is and maybe that's maybe that's been the problem with the Leafs for the last few years is you always worry about the floor rather than ceiling. And I see Klingberg as someone who can maybe get to a level that Gustafs and can't but also can do that the opposite way where it's just really

really bad again. So there's some worry there, but I don't mind it. Don't me over Ryan O'Reilly. That's obviously a money issue if you're going to take Bertuzi and Klingberg. But yeah, the defensive game is just really not there. And I think that is something that along with Klingberg is the biggest problem with this offseason. The Leaps have spent the last few years establishing themselves as a strong defensive team. Last year was their best defensive team ever. And they've sort of undermined that with the additions of Klingberg and Domi. And I think it could be okay because they have some offensive creativity

that both the back end and the forwards need, but it will come at a cost for sure. Do you think that, like, Toronto has the defensive structure to kind of rehabilitate Klingberg, when you look at what we saw from him, like, post-deadline in Minnesota, like if any team had the defensive structure to kind of hide his weaknesses, do you think Toronto has that? I think Toronto has that.

I think the problem is that he was also bad defensively in Minnesota. And I think it's a bit tough to just handwave what he did in Anaheim and say, oh, he'll be fine on a good team. He went to a good team and he wasn't great there either. So it could be a matter of going to Leif's training camp, getting some development going because Leifes are a good developmental organization. They can maybe fix what's been ailing Klingberg. And they do have the structure.

They do have partner. that could fit really well with him, whether that's Brody, McKay, or Gerdano in terms of a strong defensive presence. But I would want to see it to believe it first. So you got Florida 31. I don't think we need to break down too much of that because I want to get to Boston because before we came on the air, Dom said that Boston fans were losing their minds. But you also said off the top of this interview, it's about subtractions, not always just the additions. and the Bruins coming off the greatest season in the history of hockey in the regular season, you know, probably going to be without Bergeron, you know, no cry cheat.

The subtractions outweigh the additions here for sure. So that's why they, any model would have had them at 32, wouldn't they? Yeah. I think any reasonable person, if you ask them who lost the most this offseason, it's obviously indefinitely Boston. I think part of the issue is one of the commenters. I think didn't know, didn't understand the assignment, maybe, and said something along the lines of, okay, hold on, how can you learn the assignment? Can you just refresh us real quick? How do you learn

the assignment? Generally, you read the top of the page, in this case, the intro, and you can understand what's happening. I love the bitterness with YouTube in this interview. It's just fantastic. Yeah, so there was a commenter. He saw Toronto and Boston at the bottom, and he said, you can't do this in isolation because those two teams are still probably going to be playoff team. and in no way, shape, or form did I ever suggest otherwise. In fact, in the Boston section, the final paragraph, bottom line, even if they lost a lot of talent, they still start from a very high place. Don't make the same mistake many made last year of writing the Bruins off.

They should still be a playoff team. That's in there. That's in the article. So you're saying read the top and read the bottom. You have to read the bottom line as well. The metal is pretty good too. You're asking for a lot time. Yeah.

I think people just saw... Don't just read them out. I think they read nothing. They looked at the ranks like Boston 32. Last, I don't think so, pal. And then just didn't understand what was happening. I don't know. But they lost Bergeron Hall, Orlov, Preachy, Bertuzi, Clifton, Hathaway,

Falino, Smith. There's just so many strong needle-moving players. And they replaced them with who? Like James Van Riemzdyke, Kevin Shantirk, Morgan Geeky, Milan Luchich in 23 like this is going to be a much worse roster and I still think they're a

playoff team because they have Pashtenac, Marchand and an elite blue line and a gold team that should still be one of the best in the league but they lost so much offensive talent that there's no other place for them to go but

at the bottom that should be that should been easily expected imagine if people listen to a podcast the way they read your article Like they just listen to the first minute, then skip to the end, to the end, and then just comment and then just comment. Yeah, they're like, oh. I feel like that'd be especially bad if you do for a podcast. You just listen to, like, them introducing the guests and it gets his.

Oh, it's this person and just shut it off and be pissed. They hate my team. No, but Boston's such a weird one because, like, literally, I can't imagine how anybody thinks, like, if they had signed two centers, it would be a different conversation, right? Like, we know, okay, Charlie Coe can step up and Zaka can shift over, but you're, then now you need to replace those players that you just moved out of their positions. Like, I don't know how anybody can logically look at Boston and go, everything is fine. It might be okay still, but like, or how can you expect a repeat of last year? Like, logically.

Yeah, I think their problem was they saw Boston 32nd and thought, there's no way Boston's the 32nd best team in league or something along those lines when, I don't know, it just comes down to understanding of the assignment. and the assignment was which teams have lost or gained the most talent this offseason. That's it. One of the other concerns I saw on Twitter was for Carolina, and they said, how can Carolina only rank 8th when Max Patreddy played all of two games for us?

And it's a fair quibble. I get the sense from that, and obviously they had a strong offseason adding Orlov and hunting to the top free agents, but just because Patreda only played two games for Carolina doesn't mean he'll play two games next year. And what I'm trying to establish here is what do they lose in terms of what they're supposed to get next season. And between bunting and patch ready, I don't think there is probably a huge difference in

value aside of the fact that patcheretti is made of glass. And I would probably still take a healthy patch ready over bunting, but the injury factor makes it close. And that means the big addition is really just for love in terms of next season. in. But I get where people are coming from, there are a lot of comments about including trade deadline additions and how Ryan O'Reilly only played 20 games for Leaves and whatnot. But like, what, what else am I supposed to do with those players? I'm not going to shift O'Reilly back to St. Louis. They already, they already lost him. He's a leaf.

No, they have to lose him twice. Lose him twice. This is, like, it doesn't make sense. But, like, I think the thing, too, is, like, if you're saying someone like Ryan O'Reilly, like, from Toronto, like, it's different. I feel like it's a little bit different than like maybe, you know, other players who were deadline additions. You're not saying with depth players too. Like if it's someone who came in and filled a role, like Ryan O'Reilly leaves Toronto and you're like, well, they could have really used him. He played an important role there and he allowed them to do X, Y, Z. Like, it makes sense to count them as like a loss.

It doesn't matter how short their tenure was there. The same with Paschiority. Like, he was the finishing talent Carolina needed. And now he's gone. Now you still have to replace that. Yeah, exactly. And it's really just comparing what was on the roster at the start of the offseason to what it is now. That's it.

That was in the intro. Just read the intro, folks. Understand the assignment. Speaking of that, are you going to take a break? I'm like, you just keep pumping out this massive content. It's the off season, you know? Yeah, I've been spending the past two weeks prepping my annual look at the best contracts, the worst contracts, and how efficient every team is.

with their contracts, which is always a non-controversial series of articles for sure that all the readers agree with 100%. So I'm going to be off for three weeks, but in that time, those those will be released. And because I'm off, I can just tweet them out on Twitter or thread them on threads and just go about the rest of my day and not look at what anyone is saying about them. And it'll be fantastic. Yeah, that'll be our job. Except that you very well know that there will be someone that you will be reminded of the entire year. Like this is not a one-off thing. Who's going to be this year's Nick Suzuki that it keeps getting thrown in your face throughout the year?

I stand by the fact that I was not completely wrong about that when I wrote. It was wrong to put him there. But I said that in the write-up. If you just read past the little chart and saw what I wrote, you'd be like, yeah, that makes sense. And everything I said came true. He was not good enough to be a number one center. He's making number one center money. He is overpaid for that reason. But again, what can you do? I don't know. We'll see how good Seth Jones is this year. We'll still good Jonathan Hubertow is next year. Spoiler alert. The big thing with the worst contracts article is that I think it is motivation. I think these players know how

bad their contract is and we see it every year where players on that list have huge bouncebacks because the formula for getting on that list is you were once really good, good enough to make a lot of money and in order to have a bad contract, you need to be extremely overpaid, which means having a high salary and not living up to it or coming close to it and just being an older player. So last year, Eric Carlson was on the list. Two years ago, Drew Dowdy was on the list. those players were once the best events in the world. They had some rough years. They'd line on the list.

They found their way back. And that is something that I love about writing that piece is looking at players who might not be worth it now, but might have one of those bounce back years where they get back to the players they once were. And I hope Seth Jones and Jonathan Huberto have strong seasons and prove me wrong because that'd be good. I want those players to live up to their expectations. Well, you always live up to the expectations when you come on the show because it's always fun and fiery and your chance to fire back. Enjoy the three weeks off. Don't look at comments. Don't do anything. Just just relax. That is that is the goal. It's going to be fantastic. Enjoy it. Thanks for coming on, man. We'll talk to you soon.

Yeah, anytime. Rapid Fire coming up after the break. So don't go anywhere. All right, guys, my favorite time of the show and yours, Rapid Fire. We got six topics to get through, Shana. So let's get right into it. We're going to start with Ilya Sampsonoff. Arbitration filings are in, according to Elliot Freeman. The Leafs are looking for $2.4 million. Samsonoff wants 4.9.

Before you give your answer, I just, I wish there could be an HBO 24-7 on arbitration. Because how fun would that be to hear the team that you are going to be employed by? tell someone how bad you suck. And then once it's done, you got to go, okay, now we're going to be friends again. I would love to be in one of those years. But what do you think of those numbers? I mean, I think the numbers make sense because it's an interesting case,

and I think it's going to have a really interesting ripple effect on Philip Guff system, right? Like, we literally don't know what either goalie is truly worth because the player in both situations can go, look what I did for you this year. I was excellent. And he'd be completely in his own rate. And the team could go and look at what you did for the years before that. you were shit. So I wonder what this middle ground looks like, but I mean, I think everybody would

kind of say go for that short-term deal and get that like that bridge to prove that you can do it again and then cash in a year when the cap goes up. Why would you jump at anything otherwise? Rapid Fire topic number two. Connor Bedard signed that max entry level deal with the Chicago Blackhawks. The cap hit right now, well, the cap hit is not here $50,000, but he could make a heck of a lot more than that. Total value of the contract is 13.3. over the course of three years can make $4.45 million per season in bonuses. And I was looking at the list of bonuses. A lot of them are very attainable.

20 goals, 35 assists, 60 points for Connor Bardard. That's absolutely attainable. It gets really big if he starts getting things like top 10 among forwards and goals, assists, points per game, first or second all-star team. But no shocker here, he could be hitting some of these bonuses. Yep, and good for him. The system is so bad for young players that if there's a way to maximize money now, like, you know, he's the kind of player that you get that.

I'm sure he'll reach a lot of it. And hopefully he gets, you know, sponsorship deals and marketing deals as well because the NHL has no personality and doesn't market their players. So someone individually has to handle it. Yeah. Rapid Fire topic number three is actually a two-for-one, two signings to pass your way. Ross Colton signed a four-year extension with the Aves. Tanner Juneau, two years with Tampa Bay,

with an AAB of 2.6. Your thoughts on these two. Ross Colton one is interesting because I think right now what he shows, like they were willing to take that bet on him but not New Hook, but I do feel like he's going to play a more significant role. I think he's going to be come the Tuesday. I think that he's going to be

a really strong fit in Colorado and be a cost effective. Geno, inexpensive deal, which is what Tampa Bay needs. I don't think he's earned much more than that. He has to show that his first season is a little bit more indicative of who he is versus last year with his scoring slump. You know, they're really good in developing players, so we'll see how it goes there.

Number four deals with Mika Kiprasoff. Gonna have his number 34 retired by the Calgary Flames. I don't know if you remember that video clip, but the little kid used to dress up as a goalie and would mimic everything he did in warmups. I really hope to bring that kid there just for the ceremony. Absolutely. Yeah, like raising jerseys to the Raptor ceremony could be fun, but could also be really boring. Do something cool like that.

Yeah, absolutely. Like bring a little spice to it. A little bit of heat, a little bit of fire one might say to the flames. Rapid Fire topic number five, Patrick Lainey says Mike Babcock in his new role, his head coach of the Columbus Blue Jackets, is quote, tough but fair. And he says he respects that. I mean, what do you think Patrick Lainey's going to say about his new coach? Literally, what is he going to say? I know he has a history of being a total asshole and he hates players like me.

so let's see how this one shakes out now that I'm stuck in Columbus. Like, of course he's going to say something like that. I hate when players get asked questions that it's like their handcuffed to the answer. You know, I would love it, especially in this league. We're never going to see a player just come out and be like, I don't really like Mike Babcock, but hopefully it changes my opinion. Or what is this man done to show that he's changed at all and that he deserves this spot in the first place? None of that has happened.

And no players ever going to step up and say that, especially not Line A, who, you know, Babcock could come up with a thousand reasons to shrink his ice time and say, well, you're terrible defensively or, oh, you're one-dimensional and you're not going to play more. Like, there's a power dynamic there for a reason. Absolutely. It's, you know, you talked about getting fiery, talk about the flames. I guess for Shane of Goldman, getting fire, he's talking about Mike Babcock. Because everybody acts like Mike Babcock's, they're bestie, and I don't get it.

Like, I'm sorry, I still, to this day, I'm like, what have you done to prove that you're a decent human being? There are 32 head coaching jobs in this league that for some reason can only go to, I don't know, 40 different people and everybody just rotates through them. But he has never, I don't even, I think he's an overrated coach. I know he won with Detroit, but he had a great stack team. That's great and wonderful. What did you do with Toronto? I'm not impressed.

And just from a human element standpoint, like, what are we doing? And you're Columbus, your team that is not needing that next push to be a Stanley Cup contender, right? Like, this is a team that has to actually develop young talent to support the star players that they signed. This is the coach you think is the one to do it. That's a choice. And finally, rapid fire topic number six. I don't know if you're a memorabilia collector at all as far as hockey goes, but Wayne Gretzky gave you stick from the 88 Stanley Cup final when they beat Boston.

So his final time playing for the Edmonton Oilers is going up for auction. It is expected to fetch $500,000 at auction. As you could see from the picture behind me and all around this office, I know you can't see it. I'm a very big Wayne Gretzky guy. I have been my entire life. Even if I had 500K, I'm not spending it on a stick. I love memorabilia, but to me, that's just insane for a piece of word. Yeah.

If you're able to just throw 500,000 at a stick, that has to be pocket change for you, right? Like, it can't be someone that it's like, they're somewhat wealthy. That has to be someone who is absolutely loaded that they don't even feel 500,000. Otherwise, how do you justify that? I don't care how big of a fan you are. Yeah. You get to hang out with Wayne Gretzky for a year. Maybe that's with $500,000.

Yeah, sure. Have a stick. So you can show. That's someone who just wants to show it off. I'm sorry to whoever the person is, but you have enough money to keep you warm that you don't need me to say nice things about you. But like, that is a show off piece. That is a piece you're like, look what I was able to afford.

Like, good for you. That stick in the background there of your office. Not $500,000. Move the decimal over like five bucks, I'm assuming. I'm fine with sticks like that. Shana, thanks for coming on. Thanks for Pinchin. Yeah, anytime.

It's a blast having you on. It was a blast getting you fired up about Mike Babcock. That was the only reason. All the rest is going to end up edited out. We're just going to play the Babcock stuff. And if you want to see Shanna get all fired up, go to our YouTube page. You can watch us do everything we do. YouTube.com slash the athletic hockey show.

And of course, the athletic hockey show continues Thursday with Ian Mendez and down goes Brown. Once again, thanks to Dom. Once again, thanks to Shana. Next week, Jesse, lazy-ass Jesse, returns as co-host. For Shana, I'm Rob. We'll talk to you next week. Enjoy the show.