The Athletic Hockey Show - Flames, Torey Krug and Pierre-Luc Dubois headline the news as the NHL Draft week kicks off in Nashville

Episode Date: June 26, 2023

Ian Mendes, checking in from Nashville, and Julian McKenzie discuss the news about the Flames late last week and if they will shift to an aggressive rebuild. Then, as Torey Krug's no-trade clause holds up his trade from the Blues to the Flyers, they dive into NTCs and NMCs. Also, discussing the possibility of the Kings bringing Pierre-Luc Dubois to Los Angeles. As the Draft rolls into town, Ian predicts that the Predators could be a team to watch, and reasons for every team to be optimistic this time of year.Ian and Julian discuss the future for John Gibson, if Erik Karlsson is on the move this week, and the wrap up, their closest races for the NHL Awards.Subscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowGo to grammarly.com/tone to download and learn more about Grammarly Premium’s advanced tone suggestionsNuts.com is offering new customers a free gift with purchase and free shipping on orders of $29 or more at Nuts.com/hockey23 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. Here we go, kicking off what should be the busiest, most exciting, newsworthy week of the season, and one-third of the crew had the foresight to get to Nashville early. That's me. Ian Mendez, I am in Nashville, ready to roll. Julian McKenzie in Calgary, our producer, Danielle, in SoCalcale. I don't know. I kind of feel like we should have all been in the same room and kind of done this somewhere on Broadway,

like deep late Sunday night. That's how we should have done this, in hindsight. You're absolutely right, man. I think any opportunity to be in the same room as someone doing a podcast, you take advantage of that. And in hindsight, you're right. I should have booked it on Sunday as opposed to Monday where I'm dreading all the flights and the layovers

and getting in on Monday evening, Unless the fans would be down to, you know, wait for a late Monday night into Tuesday. And then we step on the toes of the Americans, maybe. I don't know. We could have. You could have been on the same flight. I got in today on Sunday evening into Nashville. And Connor Bedard, from what I understood, he took a flight.

I think he went direct from Calgary to Nashville. It could have been you. Julian, you could have been, you could have looked at your ticket. You'd have been like, all right, I'm in 7F. and you look over and guess who's in 7D or 70? It's Connor Bedard. Could have been you, man. Could have been on the same flight.

I missed out on Connor Bardard scoring that shootout goal at the Saddle Dome this year. And I missed out on a Connor Bardard flight to Nashville from Calgary. Just seems like we just keep visiting each other, man. Maybe at the draft on Wednesday. Maybe we'll meet that. Stars aren't aligning for you. But look, I got on a plane today. And I thought I'm going through Toronto.

This thing is going to be stuffed with, like, recognizable players, like, in terms of not players, but like agents, you know, hockey types. And the only person I recognized on the flight was former Vancouver Connex goaltender Kirk McLean. Really? Yeah. That's the only guy. That's a recognizable face. Yeah.

That was like, that was my guy as a, like, so I grew up in the 90s in Vancouver, Kirk McLean taking the Canucks to the cup in 94. was like my P. That was like my last year of high school. This is where you jump in and you're like, 1994. Don't do it, man. That's true.

I'm not going to do it. I'm going to spare you. There are so many things I could say about that year. I don't spare that for a view. I'm trying to think now, would I take my flight tomorrow? Well, sorry, Monday. By the time you get this,

I should be at the airport, probably. Who is very likely to be on my flight? Michael Backland apparently is already in Nashville. Wouldn't it be something if like one of the players who could be Rupert to exit this week could be on that flight? Maybe they go to Nashville in anticipation of a trade. Who knows? Tyler Tofoli, why did you book a one-way ticket out of Calgary?

Tyler? Cat Tifoli? Their dog? Wow. They're all in one way. That's a big flight. Have you ever been on a plane with a celebrity, by the way, where you get on, not hockey-related,

but just get on, you're like, whoa, there's like a legit celebrity on the plane. I can't think of a time of been on a flight with a celebrity, like, to the point where, like, you see them, you know they're there, and you're like, oh, my God. And you, like, try to snap a photo of them. No, I can't think of any.

I guess, like, Eric Francis from sports, that might be the closest one, but I don't think that really counts. Eric Francis does not count as a... I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. No, I've basically just like gone on flights and, you know, just maybe you find you really, you look around and hear someone who's like talking too loud. You're like, okay, this person's crazy. And maybe you'd befriend a couple people afterward and all that, but like never been on a flight with a celebrity. That's never, unless I'm missing something, I can't think of a time I was on a flight with a celebrity. I just got on a plane with Kirk McLean. I feel pretty good. I, you know, actually, I have a question. because Kirk McLean is not playing now. And you said he was your guy in the night.

Patrick Waugh was my favorite goalie as a kid. But then when you, like I grew up in Vancouver. So I fell in love with the Pavel Bureh, Kirk McClain, Trevor Lyndon, Cliff Ronning. Like those were my guys as a kid. Like I watched every Kinex game would go to the game. So that's like my era. Okay.

Where do you stand on those guys years out of the game you obviously not a position to cover them. Where do you stand on people in that situation who might go to them and be like, hey, can I get a photo with you? Can I get an autograph with you? Obviously, it's one thing if you're just a fan. It's a whole other thing if you're like a journalist like yourself.

No, I... You see this person and you'd be like, hey, can I take a photo? Can we like chop it up? Like, it's only if you talk to them, but like photo, autograph. I didn't even go up to him because it was jammed. Like, the whole terminal was jammed. Like the waiting area.

And I didn't want to be. the guy that goes up to him and like, but I think I would have gone up to him and said Robert Reichel and he would have laughed because he made an unbelievable save on Robert Reichel. If you're too young, just Google Kirk McLean Robert Reichel. It is the greatest clutch save

in the history of the NHL. Seventh game overtime and he pulls a rabbit out of his head. What would you say to oil, wait, what would you say to Oilers fans? Curtis Joseph on, forget who from the stars. I think it was Curtis Joseph on Joe Newendike just before Todd Marchant went down the ice and scored. But I think McLean on Reichel, it sets the table for Pavel Burray and the overtime goal. But anyway, I guess we could all quibble. But I think it's

okay if you go up to him and say, look, I was a huge fan. I don't think I would ask for an autograph, but maybe a picture only to send to my buddies that I all went to high school with and be like, yo, look who's on. Look who I'm sitting next to. I don't even know that I would post it anywhere, but I would probably send it into the group, into the group text. Sorry to all the Flames fans who had to remember the same, by the way. Yeah, but the Flames had there, they beat the Canucks in the playoffs a few years earlier.

Hey, let's get right to the flames here because it is the most newsworthy. By the way, I have never seen a reporter dismantle an NHL team in a short of a time frame as Frank Saravelli last week. It was like, uh, boom, boom, uppercut, uppercut, jab, jab, and then one more haymaker. It was like four tweets. He's like, by the way, player X wants to leave 15 minutes later. I'm also hearing player Y and player Z. So walk me through because you're very well connected in Calgary.

You know, you're obviously early in your in your career covering the team, but you're very well connected. you have a great context of what's going on. Take our listeners through what is happening on, was it Thursday, when everything just hit the fan in Calgary? Yeah, I have to say, this is probably the closest flames fans will feel to experiencing that, remember that sequence of like 30 minutes,

I want to say on June 29th or June 30th in 2016? Yes, where we heard about, Stamcoast. Suban and Taylor Hall. Yes. All in like a sequence of like 30 minutes. Oh, one team. Yeah, but like for one team, for what got to be like, nah, this guy ain't coming back.

Nah, this guy wants out. I got to say, if you're a Flames fan and you're not even, it hasn't been a full year since that whole Kachukadro thing happened, man. You feel terrible. You wonder, okay, what is wrong with this market? What is wrong with this team? Yeah. Darrell Sutter is no longer the head coach. Wasn't that supposed to solve a few problems?

Why did that happen? And I think ultimately, while I do, I'm not inclined to think all those players want to leave for the same reason. And I'm still, there's a part of me that still looks at all four of those guys and wonders, well, maybe if there's a contract thing that gets discussed, maybe at least one or two of those guys stay. But I don't know.

I can imagine when you see all of that going around, you're thinking, oh, man, like, what are we doing? That being said, I think fans will feel that pain because of all the loss they've incurred over the last year or so, but there's a section of fans who actually hope that this is the start of an aggressive retool that they've been waiting on for a long time. And I tried to get some trade proposals going with Noah Hannafin. Last week, Shana Goldman and I are putting together a piece on Tyler Topholi and what teams could make sense for him.

We're also going to have to look into Michael Backland as well. if it gets to a point where Elias Lindon for sure is going to leave. I think that's going to be a piece worth that. You have to maximize the return on that. There's no way you low ball or you accept any low balls for an offer for Elias Linholm. He's the biggest domino on this team.

If he leaves, then I think you could basically say next season this Flames team cannot content. He's their number one center. Like you need him to compete. The team has openly said they would want to keep him around. So I think for a lot of fans, It's a bit of a mixture of, you know, despair because they realize, oh, no, people don't want to play in our market. And it's probably going to put them in a weird situation where they're not going to be competitive.

But at the same time, there are fans who are realizing, you know, we've wanted to rebuild for quite some time. And this kind of accidentally puts us, I'm speaking from the vantage point of the fans here, kind of accidentally kind of puts us on that vantage point, even though you still have Euberdow's contract. You still have a Jacob Barks' contract. and it would be hard to do a full send rebuild anyway, but an aggressive retool, I think some fans wouldn't mind that. Yeah, and I think when you, you have to draw the line back even further

to Goudreau and Kachuk leave. Absolutely. Right? Because if those guys don't leave, I don't think we're having this conversation in this particular manner, right? Now, if they stay, we're like, ah, you know what, they got some good pieces,

they'll be okay. But this is, you're right. This is the universe telling the Calgary Flames chop it up. Like, just go put it away. and start from scratch, so to speak. Now, like you said, you can't move a couple. Like, I don't think you're going to be able to move Huber, though,

without eating a ton of salary. But that's neither here nor there. I always think, I would say most hockey markets are smart enough, intelligent enough, and patient enough to withstand a rebuild if it's communicated properly to the fan base. And now Craig Conroy, he's dealing with a clean slate. Like I, this is perfect. To Craig Conroy, you just say, listen, folks, this is just, this is the right time for a rebuild.

We're asking for some patience. We want you to grow with some of our younger players. And I think fans will go for it. They're so smart in Calgary. Like they are in most, like I said, most markets are smart now. Just sell it properly, have some transparency and go. The worst thing they could do is now try and say, uh-oh, we better trade for. or, and I'm just throwing Kevin Hayes' name out there because he's, you know,

on the trade block. But like, any sort of stopgap measure that makes you think that you're going to be a playoff team next year. Just flush it. Just start from scratch. Move Lindholm. Move to Foley. Move Hanifin.

Move them all. Get whatever you can for them. And then reassess, right? Like, I think that's the play here. I think if you are able to get first round. picks and that's why this week's going to be so important because it's one thing if you're going to try to sell this rebuild or aggressive retort however you want to label it because I don't know if you realize this but during the I think it's the Brad Trilliving exit press conference

John B and the team president was asked the question that he kind of touched off on the idea that they could have rebuilt last summer when it came time to decide a good Joe and Kachuk and he straight up was just like well you know I'm not allowed to say the word rebuild you know so I think the flames at some point would have to kind of acknowledge that they did be competitive and then realize, hey, you know what, maybe we kind of have to circle around and reassess and put ourselves on that path forward. And again, they have Huberto, they have cadre, they have Marks, room, they have Anderson, they have a few other pieces on that team that I think even if they tried to be bad, I think

they'd still be in that mushy middle. It would be important for them to communicate it, but I still wonder about how much they could actually tear it to the ground with what they have. But at the same time, if they enter this week and they realize, okay, we have to move on from some of these assets. And they come away with draft picks, with prospects, even younger prospects who could be inserted into a lineup right away and they bolster their prospect capital. There are fans in this market who would like that. Again, they've been waiting on something like this for a long time. They're tired of this team that is just kind of in that middle

and just hoping to get into the playoffs with the hopes of trying to get some journeyman run, some storybook run to the cup final. They want a team that is built properly that can compete year in, year out, not to mention there's a shiny new rank on the way. Like, they want to be, I think there are fans who very much want

to be competitive in time for that. Don't you think the Philadelphia Flyers are kind of an interesting and similar boat in terms of brand new general manager who used to play there very popular guy with the fan base, but it's another market that's probably like, ah, we're kind of tired of,

you know, if you look at the flyers in the salary cap era, they've almost always been playoff one year, playoff out, playoff in, playoff out. With the exception, last couple of years have been a little bit rougher. But now you see them like, and we can talk about Tori Krug here, because as we're recording this on Sunday evening, the Tori Krug deal with St. Louis and

for Kevin Hayes and some other pieces has fallen through. But if you're Danny Breyer and you're trading for Tori Krug, I could understand if you turn around and try and flip Krug somewhere else. I don't understand it if you take Krug and keep them. Like, I think, like, you know what I mean? If you're moving out Kineckney, if you're moving out Scott Lotton, if you're moving out Kevin Hayes, all of these guys. We can't, like, Breyer, even this DeAngelo thing kind of fell apart now.

too, right? Yeah, exactly. That's still being kind of... They might need more time with that. That Philly had two trades. And I think if you're Danny Breer, this is where you hate the media involvement. Because you'd love to do your business quietly, right? Like, how many deals probably fall apart at the two-yard line?

Probably a lot more than we realized. But these are two that became public. And they're the flyers at the same time. But don't you kind of feel like Philly should just tear it down? I mean, as best as they could, yeah. I don't know if they were a team that's necessarily supposed to compete. I was still very confused when they hired a guy like John Tortorello, no disrespect to his candidacy and his qualifications,

but that's a guy who maxes out a team as best as he can to try to get into the playoffs. And I don't think the Flyers were in that position to do that. Yeah, I think if you're Danny Breyer, you're trying to, I mean, that's why they made the Ivan Proveroff move, right? And they got some of those assets back. I still wonder if Carter Hart still going to be on this team, if that's a guy that they're able to move this offseason as well. Yeah, I think if you're the Flyers, you absolutely look at an opportunity like this year

to see if you can move pieces out, get yourself at a point where you stink, essentially, for next year, but you'll have picks to do it. I don't know, but I'll say this, though. Are you one of those people considering, you know, fine, there are teams that should be doing this, but maybe they're doing this like a year too late.

Like, was it the year to, you know, stock up on all the draft picks and put yourself in a position to suck? It was this past year. Because generational talent is going to go number one overall this week. People are debating, if Matt Faye Mitchkov, who at one point we were debating between Bredar and Mischkov is going to fall at five, or if he's going to fall further.

The first round in terms of forward talent is supposed to be this great group of forwards, pretty much. Like, this was the year to tank. Yeah, Adam Fantilli, and you go all the way down. Leo Carlson, Will Smith, there's a bunch of names. Isn't this the year to do it? Like, I still feel there's a small section of people who look at what's going on, and they're like, well, damn it, why did you do this last year? Why did you put yourself in it? There are Flames

fans I know for sure who feel this. They're like, well, damn it, even if they weren't going to put themselves in a position for Carnaberd, you get a top 10 pick out of it. I can't speak for next year. I'm not saying the talent isn't going to be as good for next year, but we don't know of any Connor Bardard type player who's going to be there. We don't know of any Matt Faye Mitchcoff guy

that's going to be there. Cory Promin and Scott Wheeler would definitely know what to say about that. But I don't know. There's a part of me, if I was a fan, I'd be like, well, damn it, I'm fine. You're going to rebuild and do this, but you should have done this a year earlier. You should have done this when there was a generational talent up for grabs and a good windfall

of pretty good talent after that. You know, like, that's unbelievable that too. Well, I mean, Columbus did get Goodrow, but, but like Anaheim, Chicago. They did it right. But I think Philly kind of did it, right? I think Philly was hoping to, to pick in the top three. Yeah. I just think they should continue on that path.

That's all. I just don't want them to trade for Tori Krug. I agree. And then Krug is there and he's like, what am I doing here? Which brings us to a great point though. It sounds like in the reporting from Jeremy Rutherford, Pierre LeBron, and others on this, that the hiccup here is the no trade clause for Tori Krug. And he's like, I ain't waving to go to Philly.

And it brings up an interesting point, which is, I mean, you're going to say, you're going to see some people villainize the player here and say, hey, man, they don't want you. But I kind of feel like if you get a no trade clause, it's for this particular reason, which is, okay, you, you get to hand, the tradeoff is you get to handpick your destination, basically, right? So I don't have a problem with Tori Krug's and no dice, but it does create a bit of an awkward situation now moving forward, right? Yeah, absolutely. I've kind of, I'm kind of thinking, I've been thinking about no trade clauses all week

because I think there's this really interesting debate that has been coming up about, you know, the fact that a no trade clause is being a lot to certain players and, you know, they, in a situation like Tori Krug, I can totally understand why he wouldn't waive it to go to Philadelphia. He's used to winning. He's been on competitive teams before. He has a ring. Why put yourself in a position to, to build a crappy team? I don't think that's an ideal situation.

I don't know if I would necessarily want to do that. No disrespect to Philadelphia, but I can understand why Tori Krug would do that. The other thing I'm thinking of is in the NHL, there are hundreds of players who have no trade clauses on their contracts. The NBA, by comparison, there are only 10 players in the history of the league that have had no trade clauses. And we realize that a big reason why people love the NBA is because of the fact that there's all. all this player movement that goes on. And like, actually, small amendment here. I think I said Toro Krug was won a cup.

He's not won a cup. I think he's gone to a final, but he's not won a cup. I should be very quickly. They got to the cup. Yeah, he was with, yeah, he got to Boston. He wasn't, was he there in 20. No, he was, you know what? I think Krug was there in 2013 and 19 and lost both times.

Yeah, so my bad. He did end up in St. Louis after they had won the cup. But all that to say, like, I wonder, and I don't know if it's a perfect science to this, is there. And I get that some people will say, well, GM should probably stop handing no trade clauses and no movement clauses like candy. But like, is there a way for like a limit on those on trade protections for players? Is there a way to only have it for a certain level of players? Because while I understand that players are humans and no one likes the idea of being moved, I'm sure we both think that.

We all understand it is a business. And I wonder if there was a way for the number of trade clauses to be limited to a point where you don't have hundreds of players. players locking themselves into these deals that, you know, kind of prohibits player movement, which in turn, I guess for journalists and fans, we all, it's weird to say that we like it, but we are all very interested in that thing with regards to drawing up the rumor mill and generating content and talking about the league. I'm, it's, it's, I'm with you, I'm torn because you also just don't want to see athletes treated like meat or assets. But, I mean, is there, Is there a middle ground where you only allow no trade protection in the first four years of any contract?

And after that, it's gone. Like, that's it. Like, because that's usually when the problems, like, usually that's when the stickiness happens in the back end of a long-term deal, right? Is there a way? Is that, is that fair? Is it not fair? Because I think the players would say, screw that. The players would say screw that.

Like, well, absolutely they would. You've opened up Pandora's box. That's exactly when we need it. That you've opened up Pandora's box already and it's already an available option for all those players. If over the next, if over the next discussion over the next CBA,

that turns into an issue, the players should be fighting like hell to get to make sure that they don't lose that opportunity. You know what? I think it comes down to. I think the compromise is, is maximum five-year deals. And I've always thought from a player perspective, even though they fought too thin nail

to get the max seven year free agent, eight year if you extend with your own team, I think they were doing it disservice because I think the best players in the game, think McDavid, think Matthews, think soon, you know, I think Jack Hughes is going to be a great example. Absolutely.

Those guys should be able to monetize themselves more often than every seven or eight years. I think you should, like, and that's the tradeoff. You give them full, no movement clause, fine, for five years. But let them re-up. And I think the best players are going to get paid regardless. And lose, like, some of those middle class guys, they won't get the six-year deals or the seven-year deals.

But those are the guys, the crew is a good example. Those are the guys that sometimes then you're like, ah, you know what? Or Kevin Hayes is another good example. You're like, ah, this guy's too expensive. If you only have them at five years, this isn't going to be as big of a problem. So that's my solution on it. And I know that it comes across as being pro-owner because people would say, well, that helps the owners.

I think it helps the players because I want to see, well, Matthews did it. But all of us said like, ooh, Austin Matthews is kind of gambling. He's not. He's going to get more money. And I'd like to see McDavid do it and Bedard do it. And whoever you want to put on that list of the 12 best players in the game, Jack Hughes, whoever, let him re-up every five years.

Well, honestly, if we're going to get to that point, I would love to see the players in a situation where they could re-up for more money and the money that they get is more than the number six or number seven guy on an NBA bench. Because if you want to get to a point where players should be monetizing themselves every few years, it is a lot more than just putting themselves in a position where they sign a five-year deal so they can get more money out of it. They have to start monetizing themselves with sponsorships and putting themselves out there and growing the game. so that way that salary cap eventually grows to a point where they could make more money.

Like I understand that like the hockey player as they are, you know, quiet, they're not the big celebrities at all that. Like they, you know, see, that's why some of them want to go to certain U.S. cities where they're not going to be looked at as much, but it ultimately hurts the product and the brand of the NHL. It needs to grow to a point where guys like Matthew Kach can get more features in People magazine because then. like later on down the road, a guy like Austin Matthews can ask for 20 million on a contract.

Like that's what I want to see in the years going forward. But I guess in the meantime, a five-year deal, I get it. And I think with that there's an opportunity, I guess, to, you know, at least see more of that player movement that drives weeks like this week we're about to see. Yeah. And I think that it solves the problem of, you know, when you said, should only a certain tier of players get no trade clauses. Like a Tory Krook, for example, who's not a superstar generational talent, but he's got a new trade clause because he's got a pretty big contract. Well, it's going to be a little bit different, I think, if the max term is five years.

Because I don't know. I don't know that you're going to be as quick to trade them. Or Kevin Hayes, again, good example of a guy that probably shouldn't have had a seven-year deal, right? Like probably, like, what do you do with the GMs that give out that deal? I think the GMs have to be a fault for this too, right? They're the ones in negotiate. I don't blame the player. Yeah, man.

I want to see the best players get more money. That's what I want to see. So I want to see $17.5 million deals per year per player. I do. I think Nathan McKinnon is worth it. I think Kail McCar is worth it. I think, you know, pick your, like I said, pick your 12 or 15 players that you think can move the needle in this sport and pay them accordingly.

And then let the rest. It's always these, most of the time, it's these awkward guys in the middle that are at the source of these no trade conundrums and the no trade clauses. And so anyway, but, but it's a weird one in St. Louis. It's a weird one in Philly. You know, Winnipeg now, as we're recording this, I mean, we've known for weeks that it looks like there was going to be a significant change. but it seems like they're interesting closer to maybe sending Pierre Luke Dubois to L.A.

And I mean, if that happens, boy, the Kings never rebuilt then. Like, they never rebuilt. Like, uh, like they really did the retool. Right? Yeah.

Because they went out and they got, that's another thing too. Kevin Fiala. Yeah. And, and this guy, Dubois, if they get him, and Arvinson and all these things. Uh,

you know, Gavricov. Like they didn't just, But what I like about LA is they also had some picks. They had Quentin Byfield and they have had some Brent Clark. And they've had some high picks too. But they never did the full we're torching this sucker and restarting. That never really happened.

I don't mean to make this a side tangent about rebuilding and retooling. But for the people who say they want to rebuild, be careful what you wish for. Because you could put yourself in a situation like in Buffalo where they've been rebuilding on a rebuild and they haven't made the playoffs in over a decade. You could put yourself in a situation like Ottawa. You can put yourself a situation like Ottawa where they have not been in the playoffs since 2017. They have a good collection of players and they might be on the verge of making the playoffs.

Yep. But it has been quite some time since that has put themselves in that position. Vegas is a bit of an imperfect team to kind of mention in terms of an aggressive retool because they found a way to be competitive from the jump. But people are wondering after the cup final was over if more teams are just going to take swings like that, just put their teams in positions to, just compete every year. A team like LA, which, I mean, maybe that's a that funny enough, not to bring Calgary again and again in all of this, but maybe that's a team they look at because

they have Onzei Kopitare. They have Drew Dowdy. Those guys are not on cheap contracts, but they found ways to fill in that lineup with other serviceable guys and young players. And it looks like they could be in a position where they could offload some of that young talent to get a piece like Pierre de Beauvoir who could put them as a consistent playoff team going forward. And they did not have to live in the basement for all that long. They found a way to make it work. And they're a legit team in the Western Conference. Yeah. And it's funny. I mean, they trade Sean Dursey on the weekend. And LA is like the only team I knew that had like too many right shot defensemen, right? Every team is like, boy, we could sure use one more. And LA's like,

ah, yeah, we got five of them or whatever. So they trade Jersey. But it feels like everything they've done is leading up to taking a healthy run at Pierre Louvre Dubois. And, but I wonder, because you know, you're very well aware of the Montreal market. Absolutely. Two years ago, three years ago, everybody said Pierre Luc Dubois is signing in Montreal. That's going to happen in the summer of 2024. He's just biding his time. I mean, would you be shocked that then if he ends up going to L.A.

and signs, you know, seven, eight year deal and effectively kills the story that we all thought was going to happen a couple years ago, right? But that was the risk that was being run by the Montreal Canadians, because a lot of people just assume that he was just going to just play out whatever contract he was going to play out in Winnipeg and maybe play somewhere else

for another year and then Montreal could happen for nothing. That's why when a lot of people were saying, oh, well, what's Montreal going to have to give up for Winnipeg to Winnipeg in order to make this deal happen? A lot of people were like, well, we don't need, well, Canadians fans would be like, well, we don't need to do anything. We're not giving up Kirby Doc and a deal. But there was always that possibility that Winnipeg could just offload him somewhere else

that he might want to play. And then Pierre Lutubot just signs a long-term extension. I can't say I'd be surprised. And it's not as if they're trading him back to Columbus or they're trading him to another market that maybe he wouldn't necessarily want to play. Los Angeles, like a team that we just mentioned is on the cusp and they're they're accumulating talent. They could be a competitive team. There are worst places you can play than Los Angeles. You know what I'm saying? You get to go watch Dodgers games, go watch some Angels games, go watch some Lakers games, you get to play in L.A.

You get a good team with Drew Dowdy, Copa Tar, Philip Dono, quitted by field, Darvetson. That's a good team they have up in Los Angeles there. Again, you live in L.A. You know, and I get some people are going to be like, oh, well, you know, it's cheaper to play in other markets than you live in L.A. if you are due to make the money that purely two possible to make, you ain't worried

that much about housing prices and all that. You're going to find something that works for you. Look, I think we came into this week saying Winnipeg was going to be a team to watch. Calgary suddenly became a team to watch. Philadelphia was a team to watch.

I'm going to give you a sneaky team that I think we should pay attention to this week. And it's the city that I'm currently sitting in, and that's Nashville. I'll tell you, what do you think about a team that hosts the draft? Do you ever think that there's a little, and pressure is not the right word. That's not the right word. But maybe there's an opportunity to capitalize on attention.

And I look at this and I say, wow, Nashville's got a brand new general manager and Barry Trots. I've got a brand new head coach and Andrew Brunette. They just, like, they just traded Ryan Johansson. and that to me felt like I wonder are they clearing the deck are they clearing the deck to do something splashing on draft week like I mean if I'm them

I'm all in on Alex DeBrinkein if I'm them if I think Alex DeBrinke wants to come here why not guys are two time 40 goal score he's 25 years old you can't find these guys anywhere why not take a run at him Maybe like I kind of feel like Nashville is going to do something.

By the end of the week, Julian, I think we'll look back and be like, wow, Nashville really tried to seize the moment. That's what my feeling is here. Something big's coming here in Nashville. I like that gut feeling. I mean, it wouldn't be out of the question for them to, for them to think they're clearing the deck because that's what they tried to do at the deadline. They still somehow almost made the playoffs.

I would, that'd be really intrigued at that. It's not, it wouldn't be the first time we see a host team try to take it advantage of the moment and try to do something splashy. I mean, the Canadians last year hosted the draft. And everyone thought they were taking Shane Wright. They take your ice, Lefkowski. They make a trade and they get Kirby Doc. And I think a lot of fans were very taken about that.

That was one of the more dramatic NHL drafts I've ever seen as far as I'm concerned. That was my first time being on the floor for that. That was Doc. Yeah, yeah. That was on draft day, right? That was on draft. That was that pick with the, and then they had the Islanders trade with Romanov. Yeah, there was the Islanders trade with Romanov.

Yeah, they got their pick and then they flipped that pick to Chicago for Kirby Doc. That was something. That was very intriguing. If you're the National Predators, I think they're picking 15th in the draft this year. I'm curious what they do if they're able to turn that into a piece. I'm wondering if that makes sense. I mean, they still have Philip Forsberg. They still have UC Soros, who's playing at a high level.

There's incentive for them to at least try to run it and see if they could go out at one more time or they could dial it back and just start selling off more assets. They're kind of in this weird middle spot. But Barry Trots, first time GM, ample opportunity to put a stamp on things. I like where you're thinking about it. I wonder if they kick tires, if they hit up Craig Conroy and they look at the assets that he has and they say, hey, maybe more than just a pick swap. But they start conversations there. I mean, I don't know.

Something needs to be done on that front with them. But I like where you're thinking with Nashville. Yeah. So we'll see if they actually follow through and become a team that tries to do something. but this is the week. I think this is the week as a hockey fan. I like this week more than the week leading up to the trade deadline. And I'll tell you why.

Because I think the week leading up to the trade deadline, there's a good chance that you know, like your team's fate is already sealed in one way, shape, or form. Like you know if there is seller, forget about it, the year's done. If they're a buyer, yeah, maybe they're trying to get in the playoffs. But really, you kind of know what your team is. This is the week where you got some, like, your mind can be opened up to some opportunities and, I guess, possibilities for your team that you cheer for or you cover, right?

Like, your team could be completely reshaped in the span of a week. And there's some, I think there's some optimism. Don't you feel like there's some optimistic? Like, again, Calgary's probably a bad example, but you could still spit it that there's optimism of finally there's going to be a plan in place. Yeah, Calgary is a bad example because at the trade deadline this year, they were very inconsistent. And honestly, I'm not sure what the idea was going to be for them at the deadline.

Totally. The team just was not sure what they were going to do. And that's why they ended up with the Ritchie Trade and Troy Stetcher. And then up and now at the draft, I think I have an idea of what they should do. But this is also an organization that said that they still intended on being competitive. and if you sign Elias Linholm, what does that do for the players you might want in return for Hanifin, To Foley, and Michael Backlin?

And again, this is Craig Conrad. He's like a month into this job and he has to figure this out. And I get he's been in the organization for quite some time, over a decade, in some kind of managerial position. But that's still quite a bit for a first time GM to handle. So, yeah, they're not the greatest example. But I understand the optimism that should be around this team. I think maybe with some of the fans, it might be a little bit more doom and gloom because

I think they've probably come to expect some of that over the years considering how some things go. But if you're a fan of any team in the NHL, yeah, you have every right to feel optimistic. And even if your team doesn't make a lot of trades, just the idea that they make some draft pick. They hinge a future on a guy. Like, you know, if you're if you're Anaheim and you have that collection. of talent with Trevor Zegris, Troy Terry, Jamie Triesdale, and then you get to add Adam Fantilly to all of that. I'm not saying the team's going to be competitive right away, but if I'm an Anaheim Ducks fan,

I love the youth movement that's being assembled there. I love the idea that they're all going to gel together it a little bit, and then at some point down the road, they'll be competitive. But I love the idea, if I'm an Anaheim Ducks fan, of more and more great young talent that can come together and hopefully you can put together. a contending team. Where do you come down on John Gibson? Because there's a guy who Julian,

you're going to hear his name a lot this week. And the goalie carousel is going to be in full swing. Free agency is going to have a few, although it sounds like, according to reports today, Aden Hill has landed back in Vegas. And so that's one domino. But, you know, John Gibson, I don't know what to make of him.

Like, is he a good goalie on a bad guy? bad team, or was he a really good bad team goalie for a brief window there where he was facing a lot of shots, did well. But I feel like John Gibson's like three years removed from his last good season. I wrong on that. I don't have the numbers in front of me. But I kind of feel like it's been a while since he's been like dominant, steal a game guy. Like do you believe in him if your team was trading for John Gibson? I think John Gibson had a lot of. I think John Gibson had sub-900 C-Sit this past year with the Ducks and a goals against average of 3.99. But, and I'm trying to remember off the top.

But not just that they were on a bad team, and I have to double check this for myself here, I think that particular Ducks team allowed an insane amount of shots. And I mean, as good of a goalie as a high danger chances, right? Yeah, like, and as good of a goalie as John Gibson should. be. If you're fending off all those chances, no wonder your goals against average and your safe percentage is going to be bad. I wonder about that. Like I think for the ducks, if you're able to get something for John Gibson, then, you know, that could, you know, obviously help your efforts to continue to suck

and you put John Gibson a better opportunity. I think he could use a change of scenery, man. You put him on a contending team. I still think of him as a guy who, like, if the Olympics were still a thing for team USA players, he gets looked at for an opportunity. I get Connor Helbe to be the number one guy But I think you think about it For a guy like John Gibson Who has been good in the past

I think if you put him on a different team I would like to see him at least get that chance Where he can prove that he's a much different goal Boy I like okay Here's where I come down on Gibson Because he's got what Three years left on his deal So I

My internet at this hotel is a little iffy I'm gonna say That's another reason why I'm kind of glad That we're not in the same spot Because then we both would have had spotty internet Yeah that's a good point But I almost would say to the ducks, I'll give you an asset back for John Gibson

if you eat some of the money. Otherwise, you can give him to us for nothing. But like, I don't think he's, I don't think he's at the point in his career where I'd be willing to give up assets and take him at full freight. You know what I mean? I could agree with that.

Absolutely. This guy's also making, it's on a cap hit of 6.4 million. For three more years, right? For three more years, yeah. And we're also, there's not a lot of goalies out there who you look at and you think, all right, this is my workhorse who I want to play 55, 60 games a year. Maybe you're in a situation where you need another goalie to kind of help you out and you take it a John Gibson and you think, all right, you put him in a tandem situation. Maybe he, maybe he would be okay with that.

I wonder about that. Plus 6.4 million. I mean, like, I mean, it's not 10. It's not nine and a half. but 6.4 million for a goaltender, especially if he's going to share the net with somebody, that is some money. That is some money.

The one lesson I thought maybe we could glean from this past season was in the regular season, the best team in the league had essentially a platoon between Jeremy Swayman and Lena's Allmark. Yes. And then the team that eventually won this Stanley Cup somewhat inadvertently had a tandem because, you know, there was an injury there to Laurent Brasois,

but, you know, they went with Aden Hill at the end, but Logan Thompson was a big guy. Like, if there's one lesson to be learned, it's that I don't know that spending north of six or seven million on a goalie is all that worth it, especially, so again, going back to Gibson, if I'm going to spend 6.4 on him, that's a huge gamble.

I don't think I should have to give up anything. In fact, I would argue if I'm taking them at full freight, maybe you take a bad contract off my hands or you do something for me for John Gibson. But I'm not taking him and I'm not giving Anaheim like a second round pick or a prospect and getting John Gibson back. I wouldn't do it. But I also, I don't know what to make of this goalie. Like I don't know.

What's Tristan Jari? What is he? I don't know. Yeah. Tristan Jari man has been such a weird. case, especially over the last two years, just health and not being a consistent goalie. Do you shell out money for him? Frederick Anderson is also supposed to be a UFA. Do you shell out money for him? There's been talk about Dan Vladarton, Calgary, who is this going

to be paid 2.2 mil over the next two years, but even his year was not all that great. To your point about what goalies have taught us from this past year, I felt this for a long time. When you go through the postseason, you don't necessarily need the goalie. You need a goalie, just to get you through and anyone can catch fire at any time. And I don't know if we're out of point yet or people feel with goaltenders, it's kind of like running back to the NFL

where you could just pay them cheap and just hope that one is able to take you far. But we're seeing a lot of evidence over the last few years that suggests that you don't need to pay your guy $9, $10 million. Like that year we saw Tampa versus Montreal where we had Kerry Price versus Andrew Vasselowski.

That's going to look like an anomaly in the grand scheme of things. Yeah. Yeah, it's a great point. point, we don't often get, like in the late 90s, early 2000s, it did kind of feel like if you didn't have Hachik or Marty Brodur or Patrick Waugh or whoever, or Ed Belfour, I think even to some extent, that you weren't going to win. Like, you had the win.

And then it's almost like as soon as the salary cap era started and Carolina won with Cam Ward, it was like, welcome to the new era of hockey. And I do think that there's been some great, there's been some Hall of Fame caliber goalies that have won Stanley Cups in the cap era. Think Vasilowski, think, I think Mark Andre Fleury probably falls into that category. Like, don't get me wrong.

But man, for every one of them, it feels like there's two anti-Nemi slash Aden Hill slash, you know, go through the list of Jordan Bennington. Like, guys that are Matt Murray. Yeah, they're pretty good goalies, but they're not like $9 million guys, $10 million guys, you know?

Like, look back at, like, I remember for another website I had to write about, you know, the fact that having an expensive goalie is not your ticket to the Stanley Cup. If you go all the way back to the big lockout from 2005 on up, like the goalies who have gone to a final and competed, the anti-Niamis, the Michael Layton's, the Jordan Benningtons, you're Matt Murray's. A lot of those guys, I'm sure if you look at their AVs,

they might have been less than a million. Even at Jonathan Quick before he, some of that big money came in. I think first one. First one, he was, I think he, like his, in terms of actual salaries, making like 1.8 million. And then in 2014 it bumped. up to seven mill. But more often than not, you're finding guys in terms of salaries who are further down

the money list in terms of salaries as opposed to a highly paid guy or top five paid guy. So this is a weird question that I think maybe we would have a different. I'm going to give you seven and a half million, or I'm going to say $8 million. Okay? Sure, $8 million. Would you rather spend $8 million on a goal, like a high end goalie or a high end defenseman? high-end defenseman. Yeah, I think so, but why?

Like, why do we both feel that way? Because I feel like in the past, we wouldn't have felt that way. That's true. And I'm just coming off watching a Calgary Flavis team that if their high-end goalie played well enough, you know, maybe they play well. You could still have good pieces up front

but if the goaltending isn't playing well, you know, it changes a few things. But I say, I think just considered what the game is like for high-end defensemen now where they're capable of defending the play but also being dynamic offensively, $8 million is going to get me a high-quality

player in that position. I'm not just getting someone who would be a second-paring guy on another team or a third-paring guy on another team. $8 million is going to get me a number one defenseman. And when you go through that cup checklist that we put out every so often, you need a number-one

defenseman. And if I'm going to shell out all that money, I'd much rather give it to a number one defenseman. This is not a perfect example, but let's put Alex Petrangelo up there. I'm just saying it's not perfect because I don't know exactly how much money he makes. It might be around $8 million. But I would rather shell all that money

to get that guy on my team than shell out all that money to get a good goalie on my team when I know if he could have a bad postseason. You could sell all that money with Jacob Markstrom. Bad postseason, it's done. And that's it. But I'd rather give that money to a defense. Well, I think I agree. And on Monday, I have a suspicion, a strong suspicion that Eric Carlson will walk away as the Norris Trophy winner, as the top defenseman in the NHL. Now, we want to talk about a big salary for Carlson, $11.5 million cap hit for Eric for four more years. And I think San Jose is going to have to eat a good chunk of that to make him palatable for somebody else. Do you think Eric Carlson,

gets moved this week or not. If you had to truly look at the landscape knowing that this is the most likely week, like to me, Julian, this is going to sound really dumb, but I think either he gets moved this week or he doesn't get moved at all. And I know that that's probably oversimplifying it,

and you can always circle back when things settle down in July and August and maybe everybody can figure out something with the cap. I just kind of feel like this is the moment that teams are looking to make the splash, to make the move, they have some cap flexibility, roster flexibility. This is the time, I think. I have a hard time arguing against it because of those reasons you mentioned. Like if you want to go back in July or something,

when teams have already spent money on free agents to see if something could be done, it's not impossible, but it might be at the easiest now when teams are already saying goodbye to pending free agents. and you know you're going to have to eat some of that salary. Why not do it out of, and especially with the draft too, why not do it at that point? Yeah, I think Mike Greer of the San Jose Sharks have the work cut out for them. And, you know, if he wins that Norris trophy, which I agree too. I think he's going to end up winning it. I, yeah, I think it makes sense for, I think it makes sense to do it around this time.

I think if you're a team that either wants draft picks or you want to offload some of those assets, I really feel this time is the best time to do it. It's not impossible to do it in July. We've seen trades before. It's impossible to make those signings and trades in August as well. But take advantage of it while you can in late January. As we wrap up the show, I mentioned awards night goes Monday here in Nashville. Carlson feels like he'll win the Norris just based on some conversations I've had with other voters.

It seemed like a lot of them went for him. I could be wrong, but I think he wins it. I think McDavid wins the heart. possibly unanimously. I think Linus Almark wins the Vesna. The Vesna. The only one that I'm curious, where do you think the Calder Trophy ends up?

Oh, really? You thought that was, like I thought that Norris was going to be the curious one, even though I do think that Carlson would win. I think Maddie Peneers wins that. I think that's pretty easy for him. I wonder if like we're Stuart Skinner and a few other rookies

kind of rank in that ranking, but in terms of the points, He was able to pull it up. Owen Power, I get it too. He's also been worthy of some votes as well. Skinner are the ones that are making me wonder. I did, I believe if memory serves me, I had to go back. I did vote Maddie Baneers won, I think, on the, on the Calder Trophy. But I don't know.

I feel like, but you think at the end of the night on Monday, the Norris will be the closest race? I think so just because of the debate we've had about it all season. Like Eric Carlson is a dynamic offensive defenseman who's done, done, did an incredible job this year offensively. And but there were a lot of people who were looking at his season and they were carving it up and they were wondering like, okay, like, is it worth it as a true all around defenseman? And there are people coming out the woodwork saying, well, if you actually take out his plus minus and you take him out from those situations where they were trying to, you know, like gold is plus minus is actually a lot different. and they have a point in doing that. But guys like Adam Vox,

there's arguments for those guys to win. People like Hamas Linholm, who is not going to surprise anyone with his offensive statistics, but his defensive rating looked really good this year. I gave a vote to Brent Burns, not as first place, but somewhere in that top five,

I think he definitely was somebody who had a decent balance of offensive and defensive rating according, at least to our in-house stats here with the athletic. Like, I think there's a lot of discussion about who should be worthy for that award. At the very least when those ballots are released and we get to see who voted for who,

we're going to see the most variety in ballots cast for defensemen in that, for that award. So if Eric Carlson wins, maybe it won't be a complete surprise, but I don't think it's going to be necessarily, I mean, it might be Carlson Fox, but it might be Carlson than Fox than a whole different

set of combination of defense with. Ducky Hamilton and even mentioned him, I think that's going to be the most interesting conversation we're going to have afterwards. Yeah. And by the way, I'm going to ask our producer, Danielle, to isolate Julian's nerd voice there that you did when you did the plus minus. We need to isolate that. You need to drop from time to time. That's what I mean. Okay. As we wrap up the Monday pot, I do have one request for you or from you this week in Nashville. Okay. All right.

I want one picture you in the middle me on one side Chris Johnston on the other and you're like you're shrugging your shoulders as if oh no which host

What do I do? Which host? What do I do? Which person do I like? Exactly. I want you to set that up CJ. We do the photo. We put it out there

and you're like man what is Julian? Julian's decision. Oh man. Don't make me pick between two Cowboys fans. That's the, yeah, that's the beauty of it. I love you both equally.

Honestly, you guys have done a lot for me. So I would, I would love to find that photo just if CJ is just, you know, not busy like crazy. Because like even last year, we were already doing the podcast, like, C.J. CJ treats draft week very seriously. Like, he gets very much, like, tunnel vision. Like, I'd like walk past him, like on the draft floor and stuff. I'm trying to do like a high and he'll be like, oh, yeah, whatever.

Like, hey, what's up? Like he's not doing the buddy buddy thing. Like he's very busy like on the phone. So I feel like if we're going to get that phone, like that little phone picture of us, that's got to be like on an off night when. Oh yeah. It's got to be a nighttime.

I don't know. It can't be a daytime. We can't take, we can't post any photos in the daytime in Nashville. No, it's got to be at a nice bar. Isn't Tootsie's a bar in Nashville? Am I getting that right?

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Tutsis. Something like that. Even if we don't go to Tutsis, we'll, we'll geot tag.

it with Tootsies on Instagram. People would be like, wow, they went to Tootsees. Even though it was a Starbucks, even though it was a Starbucks. He loves that stuff. I know he likes Starbucks. So he'd like that too. All right. Hey, listen, safe travels.

Getting down here to Nashville. We're looking forward to getting the crew together and, and some of the coverage that we're going to have down here. So we thank everybody for listening to the Monday edition of the pod. And you did tease you had a story. coming out with Shana, right? You want to get a little bit more of a plug here before we sign off? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We're just kind of like what we did, a little sort of like what we did with the Noah Hanif in trade proposals. We're just looking at some teams that make sense for a Tyler Tofoli. That article should be coming out hopefully on, well, sometime today. So take a look at that. We're going to try to see if we can as long as you can, as long as these players are still on the dog replayings before their move. if they're moved. Maybe there's a change of heart

and some of them sign. Who knows? But yeah, a lot of people seem to like and also roast me heavily for the Noah Hannafin pieces. So we're going to try to keep it going with the Tyler Tofoli ones. Doing trade proposals is hard, man. Oh, it is hard to do. Like I, what's funny, what's funny is that I think arguably the worst one that I might have put together,

which was I think Noah Hannafin for Anthony Duclair. I think Rousseau, one of the guys who put up that little kind of trade piece from a couple days ago, They were saying that like teams are getting, that the Panthers are getting calls on, on Duclair, and they linked Hannafin and Duclair together. So like,

maybe even when we don't, even when it looks bad, maybe we were on to something. Well, the only thing I can guarantee with the trade proposal piece is that you're going to irritate at least one fan base. There's never a trade proposal where both fan bases are like, my God,

chef's kiss, you did it. Never happens. If, if they were great, we'd be GMs. Exactly. So we look forward to that.

I got a little piece coming by the time that this podcast drops, it'll be available. People can check it out. What a perfect summer would look like for Pierre Dorna in honor. So a handful of things that he could do. So that, look, we're going to have a whole bunch of stuff coming up on the site this week. It's one of our busiest weeks as well. So that does it for the Monday pod. This was great.

I want to thank everybody for listening. And follow us on your favorite podcast platform. Leave us a rating and a review. We certainly appreciate that. You can follow us on YouTube as well. YouTube.com slash at the Athletic Hockey Show. Right now, we get a one-year subscription to The Athletic for a dollar a month when you visit athletic.com slash hockey show.

Of course you.