The Athletic Hockey Show - Flyers blown out by Rangers, Robin Lehner speaks out about his injury, and more

Episode Date: March 18, 2021

Ian Mendes and Sean McIndoe discuss Buffalo firing Ralph Kruger and if any coaches would want anything to do with the current situation in Buffalo. Then, the Flyers lost to the Rangers 9-0 on Wednesday night, are goalie issues again rearing their ugly head for Philadelphia?In "Granger Things", Jesse Granger drops in to talk about Robin Lehner publically addressing his concussion, and the most, and least, profitable teams to bet on at the halfway point of the season.Sean and Ian address a listener question about whether the Kraken will pay tribute to the Metropolitans in any way, and in "This Week in Hockey History", a look back at the St. Patrick's Day Massacre and the Richard Riots.Have a question? Email [e-mail] or leave a voicemail at [phone]!Save on a subscription to The Athletic: theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back, everybody. It's another edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. I'm Ian Mendez, alongside Down Goes Brown, Sean McIndoo. Head on this episode of the podcast, we'll delve into the Sabre's struggles and ask what head coach would want to inherit that mess in Buffalo. Speaking of messes, it was ugly. For the Flyers on Wednesday night,

they were on the wrong end of a 9-0 beat down at the hands of the Rangers. We'll talk about that. Jesse Granger will pop by for Granger Things. We'll get an update on him on Rob, him on Robin Lennar, we'll look at the least and most profitable teams to wager on at the midway point of the season. And this week in hockey history

takes us back to a couple of emotionally charged nights on St. Patrick's Day. And Sean, I'll tell you what, speaking of things that are emotionally charged, I think that probably sums up the feeling in Buffalo. There's a lot of feelings in that market. And to the surprise, I think of nobody, Ralph Kruger lost his job.

this week. And I think at some point during this losing streak, I don't know if it was at seven games or at nine games, it just felt like this was inevitable, right? Yeah, absolutely. I think the only surprise here is that it took this long because it had been, it had been at least two weeks that everybody was sort of looking around going, okay, when is this going to happen? There was no path forward where you could see this team going, going, into the future with Ralph Kruger's head coach and not even probably finishing the season. And there were some, the media was calling for it. A lot of the fans were the players, you never, ever, ever want to say that players have quit on a coach.

But it really looked like that team had quit on this guy. And, you know, I usually hate it when a coach is fired. We kind of go right into the, you know, what does this mean for the team going forward? and we skip over the human element of somebody losing a job. And that's not, it's not ever good. But this almost became a situation where I started to feel bad for Ralph Ruger because you're just being left a twist in the wind at this point. Everybody knows what's coming.

Everybody's calling for it. Everybody knows it's going to happen. And it's just a question of when. And it was probably two weeks too late. I understand you've got a rookie GM and Kevin Adams. He doesn't want to jump the gun. done. He wants to give everyone every chance. But it went too long. And it's, it's, it's good for everybody that this happened, even though it's, it's obviously a big negative all

around and yet another sign that things are just a complete mess in Buffalo. And so now, as you mentioned, there's, there's a human element here where Ralph Kruger is out of a job that got Don Granato in as the, uh, the interim head coach. But it's clear that the Buffalo's, Sabers will need a head coach, a new one. And as usual, you get the columns. John Vogel wrote one about looking at potential candidates. And you look at the carousel right now, Sean, and there's a guy like Bruce Boudreau, who's, you know, his resume, he's almost got a thousand games coached, his winning percentage, you know, his points percentage in the regular season is north of 600. Like, he's got a great resume. But here's my question, if you're Bruce Boudreau or Mike Babcock or like anybody with a great

resume that's available, would you want to go to Buffalo? Would you rather wait until we get to the summertime where there might be other openings available? Because let's be honest here. This has been an unfixable mess in Buffalo for about a decade. And I don't, like, would you want to jump into that situation? Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a fair question. And it's, this is a question that comes up every now and then in different markets. And usually my answer is there are 32 of these jobs in the world. If you want to be an NHL head coach, there are only 32 jobs. And you can't be that picky about the ideal situation.

Unless you're a Joel Quenville or somebody like that who's got the Hall of Fame resume and there's bidding wars and all sorts of stuff. And then you can be patient. You can pick the exact spot you want. everybody else is you kind of got to take what's available if you want to stay in the league. But there's got to be a point where you have some concerns. And we know, I mean, Bruce Boudreau sounds like he wants this job. He sounds like he'd be willing to take it.

I'm sure some other guys would as well. They won't have a problem filling the job because, again, it's one of the 32. But I really have some concerns. I would want to know, you know, first of all, what's the situation with ownership? What's the situation as far as what this job is going to pay? because they're paying a lot of people to not work for them right now. And that's something that most owners don't like at the best of times, let alone what we're going through right now,

where the bottom line is a focus for every team. So, you know, are they going to be able to come up with a competitive offer for a guy like a Bruce Boudreau who is established and knows what he's worth? And then you just look at the situation of the team. The roster is not very good. it's potentially about to get a lot worse if Jack Eichael is moved, at least in the short term. You know, if I'm a coach thinking of going in this situation, I'm kind of sitting there going, what kind of coach am I?

Am I just the transition guy here? Am I the guy who's going to come in, work you through the two or three or four years of rebuild that's ahead, and then you replace me with somebody else when the team gets good? You know, if I'm a young coach and I'm looking to get my feet wet with my first job, Maybe that's still okay. Maybe I take that. You know, if I'm a Sabres fan, I want somebody established to come in just to prove to me that there are people out there who have won in this league that would come and work for this franchise. But I'm sure some of those, you know, like I say, Boudreau apparently wants a job.

I think he's a great coach. So that is maybe a fit that works out. Or maybe they go somebody younger, somebody who's going to be more suited to a rebuild situation. that might be a tougher sell than Buffalo because they've tried that before and it hasn't gone well. But you need something. You need some good news to put in front of these fans because this is the other positive of taking this job.

It's an amazing market. And it's desperate, desperate for some winning hockey. And if you can be the guy who delivers it, then you're going to be a hero in that city in a way that you never would in 90% of the other markets in the league. So you want to take a big swing, this is your chance for a big swing. But how many guys have to take that swing and strike out before you sit there and go, you know what, maybe not. Maybe this isn't the right spot for me.

Yeah, I always think when you talk about Buffalo being a great hockey market, it's always reflected in the TV ratings. Every year the Stanley Cup final, it's like Tampa is number one, Dallas is number two. Buffalo is like right there. It is amazing. It is a great hockey market that it deserves better than this climate. clown show that's gone on in the last decade. I won't, like, okay, let's use Boudreau as an example, okay?

Because you're right. Like, he's almost publicly kind of campaigned and been like, hey, listen, I'm, I'm available, I'm interested. And I don't know, I don't mind that at all. I think Bruce is a great head coach with a great track record. If you're Bruce Boudreau, though, would you want to have a conversation with Jack Eichael before you sign on the dotted line? Either you find out from him if he's staying or going and if he's staying.

hey, let's make sure we're on the same page, or would you take the job? And that's the part of it that is really interesting to me, because I don't know if this job is more appealing with or without Jack Eichael. And I'm a huge, I'm like a Jack Eichael truther. Like, I think this guy's a great player. But I don't know what's easier as a head coach,

with or without Jack Eichel. I mean, I think it's easier with the great player. I think so, too. You know, if they move him, it's not going to be for a, Jack Eichael level talent coming back. It's going to be for some pieces and picks and prospects and all that. And you hope that at some point adds up to something equal or greater to what you gave up. But in the short term, it's not going to be there. And look, here's the other thing.

A lot of times when there's clearly a situation where there's a rebuild that's about to start, and we've seen this recently in other good, real good markets like Detroit comes to mind, the Leafs went through it with Babcock. There can be a certain appeal to that for a coach because you're going in with lowered expectations. Everybody knows what the deal is. You're not, you know, you lose three games in a row in month one. You're not going to have people calling for your job because people understand this is a rebuild.

There's going to be, you know, what was Babcock's quote when he came to Toronto? There's going to be some pain. And people understand that. I'm not sure how much that applies in Buffalo right now because they're, they're, those fans are all pained out. Like they, and they're smart fans. I don't think anyone, any Sabers fan is sitting there expecting Kevin Adams to make a trade that turns this team into a contender. They know that there's a long road ahead.

But I don't know that that patience is going to be there or that almost goodwill that you see in some places like, you know, Detroit, all these cups they've won. They've been so bad for so many years. There's certainly some frustration bubbling and some impatience in that market, but there's not a lot. And especially with Steve Eisenman coming in, the fans are saying, okay, we get that there's a plan. We're willing to be at least a little bit patient. I don't know how much patience you're going to get when you go into Buffalo because it's been 10 years. I mean, we're literally getting into a territory. We have never seen before in the history of the NHL as far as a team missing the playoff year after year after year.

The way the Sabres have, is that something you want to walk into the middle of and then ask that fan base for even more patience after a decade of them having to wait and wait and wait for something that never comes? Yeah, it's again, it is one of the biggest train wrecks I think I've seen in the NHL in a long time. This is coming from a guy who covers the auto with senators. So I hope people understand that. Yeah. That looking at it from far. You've got a Sins reporter and a Leafs fan and we both feel bad. That's rough.

Exactly. Now, Taylor Hall, you're talking about the roster being a little bit weaker next year. It looks like, I mean, Taylor Hall, they've, according to the reports, they've asked him to open up his no trade clause. and be willing to move. And I was thinking about this, Sean. I looked at this, and Taylor Hall in 2018, won the Hart Trophy as the league's MVP. Had a fantastic 93-point season with New Jersey.

They make a surprise playoff run. It's all looking good. And then he signs the one-year deal in Buffalo. And I guess here's my question. As I look at Taylor Hall, since he's won that Hart Trophy, he's played 126 games and he has 105 points. So the productivity has certainly fallen off. He's no longer in this window a point per game, a hockey player.

Here's my question to ask you. In the history of the Hart Trophy being handed out, Sean, has anybody's game dropped off in a three-year window since winning the Hart Trophy as much as Taylor Hall? The guy I thought of was Jose Theodore, and I looked it up. Theodore's season, like, and I still don't understand why he won that Hart Trophy. I had a Jerome McGillow. That's another story for another podcast.

But he won the Hart Trophy in 2001, 2002. The third season for Jose Theodore after that was 0506 after the lockout. His safe percentage that season, 882. So I would argue nobody has ever fallen off in a three-year window as much as Jose Theater. But in terms of skaters, I think this is almost unprecedented. Sean, what we're seeing with Taylor Hall. it's up there. I mean, the first thing is, if you look at the history of Hart Trophy winners,

it's like a who's who of NHL royalty. Like there's in, in fact, there was, you know, up until recently there was that stat where I think there were, what, three guys in the history of the NHL that were Hall of Fame eligible that had won the Hart Trophy that weren't in the Hall of Fame. It's, and, you know, you get the weird picks. You get like Al Rawlins winning the MVP with. 12 wins and stuff like that and Tommy Anderson and guys like that. But certainly recently, Teodor is a good one.

And I'm not sure if it's a three year period that there's anyone that really compares. I will throw you one stat, though, that I did find interesting. Jose Teodor, two years after he won the Hart Trophy, he had a year that was not a great year, but he got some hard votes in 2003, 2004. You know who has never had heart votes ever again after winning the heart trophy? Kerry Price. And I know we go all over the map on this guy and it just feels like week to week. It's, you know, he's a bum.

Oh, wait, he's good again. He's the best goalie in the league. Oh, he shouldn't even be on the Olympic team. But Kerry Price has never come close to that again. I don't hold that against him as much because goalies don't tend to get the votes. But I did find that interesting that Tador managed to do it. And Kerry Price hasn't. The other guy that comes to mind is Corey Perry.

where he sort of had a drop off. I think he had one other season other than his Hart Trophy season where he was close to a point of game guy, never got close all that close to 50 goals again. So he would be another guy that you might look at. But even in his case, it hasn't been as pronounced as Taylor Hall. This has been pretty unprecedented.

And the injury plays a role and then certainly bouncing around teams the way he has. But yeah, it's been a rough, few years and I'm very curious to see how this plays out the rest of this season, assuming he gets traded and then what happens in the off season. Yeah, and that becomes a great question too. Like people will say Taylor Hall made a mistake signing a one-year deal because now maybe his value is less than it was a year ago. But I think there was some pandemic considerations there. I don't know that teams were offering up five, six, seven, eight-year deals for anybody in the

off-season. And I actually think that this year aren't, and maybe the thing with you is you've, It feels like you've done every column ever in the history of hockey. It feels like, this is a down. I know it does feel that way sometimes. This is a down goes brown idea. And I'm sure you've hit on this. Like Taylor Hall's one-year gamble in Buffalo. If you think about one-year gambles in hockey history,

like you think of, I think of Salani Korea, the one-year in Colorado. I think a Marion Hosa doing a one-year deal. Like Taylor Hall's one-year Buffalo is going to end up on the short list of, again, Gamble might be too strong of a word, but like it was certainly a role of the dice to do what he did. And I don't think it has played out in the way that he thought, which was either A, the Sabres were going to be really good and be a competitive team or B, he would pump up his value and parlay that into a longer term deal. Yeah. And look, the story isn't finished yet on this season because I think part of this, when he signed in Buffalo, a lot of us kind of went, well, wait a second, Buffalo is not expected to be good. And then you kind of went, well, hold on. If they are good, he's going to get a ton of credit.

But if they're not, they can move him at the deadline to a contender. He can kind of pick his destination. And maybe he goes and has the big playoff run somewhere else. That's always the thing with Taylor Hall is he's never had a chance to do with the postseason. Maybe this was his way of making that happen. And as big a disaster as this year has been so far, if he gets moved to Colorado or Boston or maybe the islanders now that they've got a hole in the lineup and has a great playoff run and wins a Stanley Cup.

Okay, now suddenly the story looks a lot better. As of right now, though, it doesn't look great. And the difference is, you know, you talk about Paul Korea leaving Anaheim to go to Colorado. You talk about Marion Hosa taking the one-year deal to go chase a cup. That's what was happening. They were chasing the Stanley Cup. Paul Korea, when he went to Colorado, Colorado was two years removed. from having won a championship, it was going to be a stacked team.

It was like, oh, my goodness, Foresberg, Sacket, Salani and Korea, these guys are going to be unstoppable. Same thing with, you know, Hosa jumping famously to Detroit to go try to win a cup there. That's what you're supposed to do in hockey if you take the short-term deal. It's supposed to be to go chase the championship. And with Taylor Hall, he didn't seem to do that. And whether it was because it was the bigger dollar figure or, you know, we don't know what else was offered. We don't know what else is on the table. But I have a hard time, unless he just goes on an epic playoff run for the ages,

I have a hard time imagining that this offseason that there's some big long-term deal waiting on the table for him from anybody at this point. Yeah. And I'm still curious to see if there's big long-term deals for any player just with the pandemic, right? Like, it might be, this might be the owners. They were banging the drum for five-year limits on contracts in the past. This might, the pandemic may artificially create that marketplace for them. So we'll see how that plays out for sure with Taylor Hall.

Look, things we know are messy in Buffalo. Sean, they were messy Wednesday night for the Philadelphia Flyers. Nine, nothing. Mika Zabanajad goes full Brian Trotier with six points in a period, a hat trick, a natural hat trick in three assists. I love the fact that I was looking at your Twitter on Wednesday night, and I was watching Ottawa, Vancouver, and I look at Twitter. And I was seeing it was, you know, four nothing, five.

nothing, six nothing. They replace Elliot with Carter Hart. And it's like, you seem like the guy that kind of like walked into the room and, hey guys, hey guys, what's going on? Like, what was your reaction? I was a guy walking in with the pizzas in my hand and the room. And because that's what happened to me. I was offline last night for a couple of hours. And then I sat down or, you know, nine or nine 30 or whatever it was. And my first hint of what was going on was I saw a couple of messages pop up in my Twitter feed about Flyers fans being upset. But they're Flyer fans, right? They could be losing two to one and they could be having a meltdown.

That doesn't tell you anything. And it was, you know, I was like, all right, I'll flip over and see what the score in the game was. And I mean, my eyes almost popped out of my head because it was, you know, it was 9-0. It was 9-0 in the second period. I mean, the Rangers just completely went into shutdown mode in the third period. been, and, uh, because that, that could have easily been, been even worse. Uh, and in fact, I was looking it up. You know the last time in NHL history that there was a game decided by more than 10 goals by, okay, so I remember, so I remember there was the Columbus Habs game that

was like 10.0. Am I right on that? I think, yeah, that was a 10.0. Okay. Okay. I, I'm going to, I'm going to say this because I was a kid and I grew up in Vancouver in the 90s. There was a game where the Vancouver Canucks lost, I think, 11 to nothing. Sorry, the Vancouver Canucks beat the flames 11 to nothing. Okay. Am I right on that? It's not that one. They may have, the one, and the reason I'm bringing it up is because we just talked about it recently.

It was the Theo Fleury plus nine game. That Calgary San, it was like 13 to 2 or something like. that where Theo Fleury set the, what I think we said a few weeks ago, unbreakable record. Because, I mean, there's never going to be another game like this. And then last night comes along. And of course, the best part of this is that, you know, this Rangers team that's been underachieving all year long and has been this big disappointment. And, you know, Mika's advantage ad's been one of the most disappointing players.

And you go on down the list, they blow up with none of their. coaches because all the coaches get shut down by the COVID protocol. And so at the last, you know, a few hours before the game, the minor league guys come in. Chris Drury drops down from the front office and they have the biggest win that they've, they've probably had, you know, scoreboard wise in decades. It's, it's amazing. It's, you know, somebody said on, that I saw that this is, this has got to be the first game in NHL history, certainly the first 9-0 game in history that has made the head coaches of both teams worried about their job. Because if you're, you know, David Quinn's seat was already a little bit warm, but, you know,

you never, you never want to call in sick to work and have, like, the new guy show up and do just as good as you, let alone to have, like, a record smashing game. It's just, it's one of those funny quirks and, you know, I don't read anything more into it. But it certainly doesn't help David Quinn. And obviously, for a Flyers team that was, that was already. struggling and not living up to expectations this year. This is a potential, we'll see how it goes, but a potential exclamation point that we might look back on and go,

yeah, that's where the flyers dropped off the map after that one. Yeah, and it was the entire staff, right, David Quinn, Jacques Martin, Greg Brown, I think, all on that staff, and then replaced by, as you mentioned, Chris Drury comes down, Chris Knoblock is the head coach. And certainly it's, I think it's considering the fact that the seat was,

warm or hot on David Quinn, this doesn't do anything to bring down the temperature, right? If anything... It doesn't help, you know? Like, you got to be... If you're David Queen, you're probably sitting at home watching that game and it's 1-0 and it's 2-0. You're thinking, okay, good start.

And then it's 3 or 4-0-0 and you're thinking, great, we need these two points. And then it gets to like 5, 6, 7. There's got to be a point where you're sitting there going, okay, that's enough, boys. Let's settle it down a little bit. And, yeah, 9-0 after 2 periods. boy, I don't know.

They better not go out and get shut out in their next game because that's going to raise some eyebrows. So if you're the Philadelphia Flyers now, let's look at it through their lens for a second here. Sean, stop me if you've heard this before, but the Flyers are having goal-theading issues. And, you know, you look at this, and Brian Elliott got pulled last night

and replaced by Carter Hart. And we all thought at one point last season, Carter Hart was going to be lock it in. The Flyers have done it. It has been a rotation of goalies over the last two decades, they finally got their guy. They got Hart, who was just dynamite last season. You know, his first two seasons in the league, I think his same percentage was 915.

880 save percentage. Sean, this season for 22-year-old Carter Hart, his numbers, his underlying numbers, his metrics are all worse than Brian Elliott. Do we have ourselves another goalie issue in Philadelphia? Boy, you hope not. I mean, I think you could make a case with that Carter-Haw, heart has not been the most disappointing player in the league because there's a lot of guys who have had rough, rough starts to the season. But of all the disappointments, he might be the most concerning for a team and for its fan base.

Because, look, Taylor Hall has been a bust in Buffalo, but you kind of figure that was going to be a one-year thing. You go down the list, some of the other guys who haven't been very good, you know, Mika Zabandad, that was a bigger one because he was supposed to be your number one center. hopefully he's broken out of that last night and he gets it back. So that concerns you. But Carter Hart, this guy is

the guy who was supposed to be your starting goalie for the next 10 plus years. And every good goaltender, you pick me any great Hall of Fame legendary goaltender and we can find bad seasons that they had. That's just the nature of the position. And maybe that's just what's happening here. I know Charlie O'Connor went through

and he looked at every goal Carter Harder given up this year and he didn't see anything that really jumped out as, you know, this guy's not playing well. Some of this is just bounces. That's fine. But if Carter Hart isn't what we thought Carter Hart was going to be, that's going to have a profound effect on the Flyers going forward. And you're right.

It's been a history with this team. And in fact, it's, it was interesting because, you know, we sort of bounced this topic around a little bit before the show. And I went and I looked, I looked up the numbers. And I went back to 1992. The reason I picked 1992 is because that was the year that the Flyers traded Ron Hextel away. So the end of the first Ron Hextel era. And a lot of people would look back and go, Hextel was the last great goaltender that the Flyers had.

So I went back, you know, we're talking almost three decades at this point. And I ran the number to see what teams had the worst goaltending. And I figured the Flyers would be near the top because we all know the Flyers goaltending always stinks. And they're not, actually. The Flyers, there are 15 teams that have had worse goaltending, giving up more goals. in that era than the Flyers, which really kind of surprised me. And then I went down the list of the guys that they've had. And my goodness, like since Hextel left the first time,

it's just been a who's who of like okay goaltenders who are just good enough to keep you in the middle of the pack. But, I mean, you go down this list, Dominic Roussel, Tommy Soderstrom, Garth Snow, an old John Van Biesbrook, Brian Boucher, and then Roman Chechmanich, who is the one guy who, if you look at his numbers, his numbers were fantastic. He was there for three years. He had a goals against under two in his career as a flyer. But we all remember the playoff meltdowns, the losing to the senators, the one game against the Leafs, that one goal where he dropped his glove and bent down to pick it up and the puck comes in over his shoulder for a big goal. like you just never live that down. That was that was kind of it for the confidence.

And you just go down the, keep going down the list. Robert Ash, Martan, it's this who's who of pretty good goaltenders, but just never anyone that you would point to and say that guy was a star, that guy was, and that's what they were supposed to have with Carter Hart. And there was every indication for the first few years that he was that guy. And this year has just been a disaster. And the problem is even if it's not him, even if he's playing well, even if it's just the bounces, just the defense in front of him, you know, I mean, he wasn't awful last night.

The team in front of him was just a no-show. Even if it's not on him, he's a young goaltender and confidence matters and psychology and everything. If this season starts to implode on him, what does that do to him going forward? You hope he just shakes it off and gets back to being Carter Hard. But that's not a guarantee. We've seen young goalies have disastrous seasons before that they just never seem to recover from.

Yeah, and it's amazing. Like when you read off that list of goalies, it is. It is a who's who of like, yeah, they're, I mean, there's serviceable NHL goalies or they're guys on the, like in the case of Van Bsbrook on the back nine of their career. But as I look at this, I think in all of sports since Ron Hextall left that first time,

has there been a team in any sports? that has struggled to find that one positional player as much as the flyers, in terms of stability, as much as the flyers have tried to find a goalie. Like I think, like, yeah, the Cleveland Browns have looked for a quarterback for years, and that's been a carousel. I think they've got their guy now, but it's like, I don't know, is he really the guy for five or ten years?

And like, I'm having a hard time. I really am having a hard time thinking of another team in professional sports that has had a harder time finding stability in one specific position. than the Philadelphia Flyers in goal. Yeah. And it's remarkable. I'm sure there are, you know, there are some, I'm sure somebody could be like,

oh, yeah, this MLB team hasn't had a good catcher in 20 years. But you wouldn't notice that. It would have to be a quarterback or a goalie or somebody like that because those are the positions that stand out that make or break you. And yeah, I mean, the Browns QB comparison is probably a good one. I mean, I think the Browns, a lot of years, they would have loved to have had to serve the way that the Flyers have had with their goalies. So, you know, maybe they're the one team that has it even worse.

But it does. It kind of becomes this self-fulfilling prophecy, right? Because a goalie goes to Philadelphia. And everybody goes, oh, yeah, that's the team that never has good goaltending. And so now everything's you're under the microscope. You give up a bad goal in Colorado. And people go, oh, yeah, bad goals happen. You give up a bad goal in Philadelphia.

And everyone goes, here we go again. It's another Flyers goalie. And the history repeats itself. And, yeah, I mean, this stuff. can have an impact. Goleys are all weird. They're all very strange people. And a lot of times that means they just shake this stuff off and go on.

But not always. And that's the biggest concern to me. If I'm a Flyers fan right now, it's not even can we make the playoffs or what happens with this guy or that guy. Carter Hard is the future. Let's make sure that he's right. Even if it's not the numbers, let's just make sure his head's right.

And he's ready to go next year. And he's back to being that all. All-Star caliber, Vesina caliber guy that we thought we were going to have for the next decade. All right, Sean, at time for us to switch gears and do a little Granger things with Jesse Granger. As always this segment presented by BetMGM, our exclusive, a betting partner with the athletic.

And Jesse, before we get to some lines and kind of looking at who is the least and most profitable teams of the National Hockey League from a betting perspective at the halfway point of the season, the team that you cover on a regular basis, the Vegas Golden Knights, having a terrific season. But one of the big storylines with this team, we've talked to you about Mark Andre Fleury, and he might be the odds on Hurt Truffi

or a Vezna Troufee candidate right now. But there are other goaltender, Robin Lennar, in the news cycle this week. And I was fascinated by Robin Lennar opening up about his injury, because oftentimes, Jesse, injuries in the National Hockey League are shrouded in mystery, cloaked in secrecy. But maybe you can tell our listeners a little bit

about why Robin Leonard decided to open up about the reason why he's been out. Yeah, definitely. Robin was great yesterday, super open and honest like he always is. He's one of my favorite players to talk to for that exact reason. He doesn't have a cliche programmed in his brain. He speaks from the heart every time, and he came back. He's been gone since February 11th, and it's been a while now, almost a little over a month, almost five weeks.

And initially when it happened, he was scheduled to start that night. He showed up at Team Mobile Arena, and then all of a sudden, last minute scratch, Mark Andre Fleury, starting, and Oscar Danz was serving as the backup. And the team kind of all they said was, well, he tweaked something at morning skate. But we don't expect him to miss much time. Well, a month later, he's still not out there. And that caused a lot of confusion, especially amongst the fangs here in Vegas, wondering what's going on with him. And because of that, and because of Robin Lennar's history, I guess he heard some of the rumors. And one of the reporters asked him yesterday during his availability,

did you hear the rumors that maybe you weren't hurt? And this was something off the ice related that kept you off the ice. And Robin Leonard said yes. And that's exactly why I wanted to tell everyone that I had a concussion. And he said, teams don't usually say these types of things. Like you said, shrouded in mystery. The NHL is not a big proponent of giving out injury information in the Golden Knights, specifically covering them.

I know that they are very secretive with their injuries. And Robin Leonard wanted to make it known. that he did have a concussion. And also, this guy takes every chance he has to talk about mental health and talk about. And I think a lot of people out there when he speaks, listen to him, a lot of people with mental health issues of their own. And he speaks directly to them. And he mentioned, this is a hard time in the world for everyone right now because of COVID.

And COVID is isolating people and making things more difficult on him. And he mentioned that the concussion, you get isolated even more. And he did have some difficulties when he was out dealing with that concussion. And he said it sucked, basically. But again, very, very good interview from Robin Lennar. He was super open about it. He said it's the third concussion of his career. Talked about how kind of how scary that is and how when it initially happened.

He didn't think it was that big of a deal. He goes home. He gets worse. Some days you think it's gone. Then the next day it comes back. Just a really scary situation for him. And luckily, he's back with the team. He was backing up Mark Andre Fleury last night.

He has not played a game yet, but Peter DeBoer was saying that he's very close to coming back. So that's great for him and great for, like you said, the Golden Knights, they've got probably the favorite to win the Vesina and Mark Andre Fleury. And they're getting, who was their starting goalie coming into this season back from injury? So they're in really good shape. I can tell you, Jesse, I was in the arena the night Robin Leonard had his first concussion in the NHL. It was a spectacular collision. I think it was Jay McClement of Carolina and Clark MacArthur went into the crease. and it was, you could hear a pin drop in the arena.

It was one of the most catastrophic crease crashes I think I've ever seen in my life. And so, you know, for Robin to go through this now a third time, it's really tough to see. But like you said, I really appreciate, I got a lot of time for Robin. But the fact that he uses his platform to speak out about mental health is just fantastic. Yeah, and you bring up that concussion in Ottawa. And he actually brought it up and he said, because I think Robin Leonard is sort of annoyed at the secrecy and the fact that he had to deal with these rumors. And he even mentioned, like, he heard that people were saying, is he back in rehab? And that's just ridiculous for anyone to assume when we had

no idea why he was out. But the fact that he's having to deal with that, I think he's kind of annoyed that, like, I wish we could have just said, he took a mask to the, he took a puck to the mask and he's not feeling good. He's in concussion protocol. But then he did go on to say one of the positives is his experience and the league, the way they've dealt with concussions, has improved dramatically. That was in 2015. And he said the way the Golden Knights treated the concussion was a lot better than Ottawa. I don't think it's necessarily a Vegas versus Ottawa thing. I think it's a, the way the NHL looks at concussions in 2021 versus 20, or 2015 is a massive, massive difference. So that's great news. Obviously, there's still a long ways to go in all sports with that. But the fact that

a guy has suffered concussions five years apart and noticed a drastic difference in the way they were handled, that's a great sign. Yeah, that's a great point. And still, though, if you think about it, the letter concussion happened about four or five years after Crosby got hit by Dave Steckle at the outdoor game. So you would think by 2015 they would have gotten this right. And it's clear that it is kind of a fluid situation. All right, Jesse, every week we get you in here for Granger things. We talk about different betting lines and props and futures in the National Hockey League. So it's a little bit of a different year because not everybody hit the halfway point at the exact same point roughly in the calendar.

So what do we see in here in terms of least and most profitable teams to maybe make a wager on here at the quasi halfway point of the season? Right. Yeah, we did this a little while back, but now we've got a lot more games under our belt, a lot bigger sample size. So I think it tells us a lot more. And as we said back then, it's not necessarily the teams with the best record. You'd think if you're betting every night, you want to bet on the team that wins the most. And usually that's the case. But there are a couple examples in here that show you that the betting market really, really affects that. And so the number one team, the most, number one most profitable team you could possibly bet on this season in the NHL is actually the Winnipeg Jets.

I don't think a lot of people would have guessed that. But I mean, you guys see them up there in the north all the time. They have surprised some people. And they've gone 17 and 11 money line. And remember, if you're betting money line, you're losing shootout, you lose an overtime. It counts the same as losing in regulation. So it's just a straight up 17 and 11 record. And if you would have bet them, you would have profited $699. and $68, almost $700. For us, team with a 17 and 11 record, and the main reason is because in those 17 wins, they've been underdogs in 10 of them. You guys can talk about Winnipeg. I mean, they have been surprising a lot of people up there. Do you guys think that they're legit, or do you think that this is kind of just a mirage for now? Yeah, the thing with Winnipeg, first of all, I'm not surprised to hear that they're near

the top of that list because this is a team that, I'm sure, Jets fans would tell you, doesn't get maybe as much attention as it deserves. And so, you know, you're talking about the North Division. It's all about the Maple Leafs. And then you got to talk about the HABs and Connor McDavid and you kind of forget about Winnipeg. They've been real good. The thing with Winnipeg is, you know, the blue line is still a question mark, maybe some of the depth. But they have got one of the best top sixes in the league and one of the very best goalies in the league.

And if that's your formula, that's not a bad way to go. elite offensive talent and a really good goaltender who can cover up some mistakes on the other side. That's, you know, that's not a flu. There's a lot of teams that would love to have that exact setup. And I think the Jets are for real, at least as far as being a solid playoff team that could do some damage in the right scenario. Yeah. And I look at them too. Like they just need a partner for Josh Morrissey and I think they might be in a really good spot.

And they did a terrific job against Toronto. I think, you know, last week. So Kyle Connor, too, probably doesn't get enough love as an elite player. Like, I am with you guys. I think the Winnipeg Jets are a legit top seven, whatever. However, wherever you want to do that cutoff of elite teams, Winnipeg should be part of that mix. And very high on the list of teams that could make one big deal at the deadline

that might drastically change your impression of them. You know, there's a lot of teams that one guy, is he going to make that much a difference? But if they go and get like a Mattis Echon type guy, to plug into that blue line, look out because now it starts, instead of just being a top six and a goalie, now it's a more balanced team. And they start getting potentially real scary. Right. And you mentioned the top six.

They added Paul Stasney from Vegas, obviously I'm close to that situation, for basically nothing. The Golden Knights had to give him away, and it didn't seem like that big of a move. I've been impressed with Paul Marisse's usage of Stazney. He's moved him to the wing a little bit, which is, I mean, Stazney is about as true of a center as you can possibly find. fine, but they've moved him around. I think he's played every position in that top six, but like you said, really clicking right now. To prove, I think, I think to show that record doesn't always necessarily work towards who's the most profitable team. Winnipeg 17 and 11. And if you bet every game, you'd profit $700. The Colorado Avalanche are 17 and 10. So essentially the same record with one

less loss. If you would have bet every Colorado avalanche game, you'd be $44 in the hole right now, which is pretty insane. But again, the Colorado Avalanche have only been a lot of underdogs in one game this season. So moving on, the second most profitable team you could bet on, Carolina Hurricanes. Another team that has surprised some people. They have a few wins over the lightning. Whenever you get a win over the lightning, that's big time plus money. So that's a big boost to that record.

Again, the number four most profitable team you can bet on is the Florida Panthers. So Carolina and Florida have really been surprising people in that division. And the betting market hasn't really caught up to them yet. I think that's probably going to continue. as long as they can get some, I mean, they've got a lot of big heavy favorite games in that division because that division's top heavy, but they're going to have plenty of chances to play each other and to play against Tampa to get some of those plus money wins. Another team that's done a really good job getting wins at plus money as an underdog is at number three, the Washington Capitals. I think we've talked about them a lot on here when I come on.

I liked them before the season as a future team. I think that the betting market still hasn't caught up to them. They're 19 and 10. If you would have bet every Capitals game this season, you'd be up $640.40. $29 because they've won seven times as an underdog. And to me, that's a little surprising. I mean, they've won a cup recently.

They're a very public team, just Alex Ovechkin. They're on national TV all the time. And what do you guys think about that? I was a little surprised that Washington was here just because, like I said, they're a public team, the Pittsburghs, the Chicago's of the world. I kind of consider them one of those. Yeah, I'm surprised. But then as you're saying it, I'm thinking a lot of us kind of

I don't want to say we wrote the capitals off. That would be too strong. But it feels like we did sort of move on to the next thing. After they, okay, they got their cup. All right, we checked that box. And then a couple of years later, it was like, okay, they're fine. But we moved on to the next big thing in that division. We're focused on the flyers.

We're talking, okay, now Boston's in. Okay, we got to look at that. Maybe, yeah, maybe we all gnapped a little bit too much on a real good team that it had a lot of success fairly recently. Yeah, and I think it's amazing, too. So you say Washington has won seven times as an underdog, but Colorado has only been an underdog once all season. Do I have that right?

Yeah, and Colorado, the one time they were underdog was February 16th in Vegas, and they won. So as bad as Colorado is to bet on, if they're an underdog, take them, because it doesn't happen very often, and they're probably going to show up. So, okay, to wrap that up, Minnesota. There it is.

I was waiting for the while to show up. My boy, Dom, has been screaming. I'm sure, yeah. Where's Minnesota? And they've been very profitable. 18 and 9 this season against the money line. If you'd bet every game, you'd be up $455.19. And again, that's not many people gave them a lot of respect going into this. A lot of people saw that West Division as Vegas, Colorado, St. Louis, and everyone else. And Minnesota has clearly, it kind of is that, but now Minnesota is in that. It's Minnesota, Colorado, St. Louis, Vegas, and everyone else. And the wild have played really well. I've, they've given the Golden Knights problem. So as someone covering the Golden Knights,

I've seen the Wild have given them issues. They're a really deep team. They kind of remind me not exactly, but they kind of give me the vibes of Vegas in the inaugural season. The sum of the parts is better than the individual pieces. When you look at them, they play really well together. They don't really have a top, top line, but it feels at times like they have three second lines.

And the depth really, really helps them, especially in that division that is weak. up a lot of easy wins against those California teams. Yeah, I think it's interesting as we wrap up here, like the teams that are the most profitable to bet on just happen to also be the ones that are like almost the least respected, right? Or don't get enough credit. Right.

Minneapolis, Florida. Just real quick, are the Islanders in that mix, too? Or no? They were. Okay. The Islanders were, I think, let me pull it up, but they were right just on the edge. You know what? They were the sixth.

They were right there behind these teams. If we would have expanded it one more, the Islanders would have been there. And to go the opposite direction, the teams that are the worst to bet on are the exact opposite. They're the teams that people had high expectations for other than the Sabres. I don't want to kick the Sabers too bad. If you had bet every Sabres game, you'd be down $1,582 to season. If you bet every Sabres game, you've got some real problems in your life. Right, right.

But other than the Sabres, because their record's just been so bad, the other teams that are the least profitable to bet on are Dallas, a team that was in the Western Conference final that has had a lot of games go to overtime and not go their way. Columbus, a team that is kind of hanging in there in the standings just because of all the loser points that they've collected from losing in overtime and shootouts, but not very profitable. And Nashville, another team that had high expectations. So I agree with you, Ian. The teams that are the most profitable are the teams that have exceeded expectations and then that betting market hasn't caught up to yet. And then on the other side, the teams that people had high hopes for like Dallas and Columbus and Nashville that are struggling a little bit have not been profitable. at all. Awesome stuff. As always, Jesse, listen, enjoy the week. Enjoy the weekend of games.

And we'll get you again next week for Granger things. Awesome. Thanks, guys. Thanks, Jesse. All right. Always great to get Jesse Granger dropping by. And I think it is interesting that the teams that get the least respect also happen to be the best ones to bet on. Sean, let's open up the voicemails here, shall we? And a reminder, anytime you want to connect with us, and this is great, the more that we're opening up the voicemail, people are dropping off, drop, us a line. And so you can do that at 845-4-4-5-844-9-4-5-4-5-4-5-8-4-5-4-5. Let's start with this one. Brian from Idaho drops in here and has a question for us about the Seattle Cracken, Sean, and whether or not they should honor an old version of a hockey team in Seattle.

Hi, guys. This is Brian from Cordillane, Idaho. And my question for you is about the Seattle I'll crack. And then should they do something to remember the 1917 Stanley Cup champions, Seattle Metropolitan's by hanging a banner or is there something else they could do? Or should they at all do anything to recognize this historic team, which is part of hockey history in the Northwest. Love to hear your thoughts. And I love your show.

Thanks. All right. Sean, so interesting. Right? I think, listen, I cover a team in Ottawa and the senators that kind of had that sort of same gap and they had Stanley Cup championships in the 1920s. And I go into the arena. I see the banners in there for the original Ottawa Senators winning the Stanley Cup.

So what do you think about Brian's idea but the crack in honoring the old Seattle Metropolitan's? Yeah, I mean, you know when it comes to remembering history, I'm going to be on board with that. And it's, you know, Brian says that Metropolitan team was a big team in Seattle Hockey History. That was a big team in American hockey history. That was the first U.S. team to ever win a Stanley Cup.

I mean, that is, I think, important historical stuff. It wasn't an NHL team, but that was back in the days when it was, you didn't have to be in the NHL to win the Stanley Cup because there was no NHL. So absolutely, yes, recognize that in some form. I honestly had wondered a little bit if they would even consider taking the name and doing the same sort of thing that the senators didn't, sort of connecting to that legacy, didn't choose to do that. I understand why you want to have a fresh start and all the things.

to go with that. But yeah, at the very least, hang a banner, do something to recognize the history that, hey, this city has had the Stanley Cup before. And in fact, we had it before Detroit, Chicago, Boston, New York, any of those other cities got their hands on it. Yeah. And it was Seattle that was playing in the Stanley Cup when it was the only other time that the league was halted due to a pandemic, right? It was 1919. Yeah, the Spanish flu. The outbreak. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So it's almost like it all comes full circle. I would love it just to put a a bow on Brian from Idaho's question. I would love it if they did a third,

like if their third jersey at some point or an alternate jersey was the Metropolitan's, I think that would be really cool at some point. Yeah, and you know what? I'm sure they will because they love that. We've seen that with some of the other old teams. Remember Vancouver had the millionaires as their look. I'm sure, Lord knows,

hockey teams have three or four alternate jerseys every season it feels like these days. So I'm sure at some point they'll break that out and it'll look cool because it is, It's a neat piece of hockey history that a lot of fans don't know about that this American team won the cup before at the NHL even went there. Yeah, we've seen the Maple Leafs roll out, the old Toronto St. Patrick's stuff too. So it's pretty cool when you can reach back into the past. All right, let's go back into the voicemail.

Sean, one more here. We're going to go to Pruitt from Nova Scotia. And Pruitt has an idea, kind of, and it's a unique idea. It's an interesting idea to change up the look and the field. of the All-Star game. Hey, Ian and Sean. I've got a talking point and an idea for you guys. A lot of people this year seem to like the idea that there's no All-Star game

and a skills competition because they think it's a waste of time. What if going forward we actually had a better All-Stars competition? Doug, what if individual teams, if they had an event where all the players participated in hardest shot, fastest skater, most accurate, etc., and the winner of those goes on to the national all-star game. That way we can truly see every year who is the fastest, who it has the hardest shot of everybody in the league, not just the select 40 guys that get to go every year.

Okay, Sean, this one feels like it's right up your alley. Okay, so what do we think about Pruitt's idea for completely overhauling the All-Star game? Yeah, so this is, it's a neat idea. And Pruitt may or may not be aware of this. The NHL has actually done this before. There was a time in the 90s where they did pretty much exactly what he's suggesting, which is that when it came time for the All-Star Skills Competition,

it wasn't just a competition among the players who happened to be on the All-Star team that year. There was, as he suggested, there was competitions held all around the league. Every team did its own skills competition. They sold tickets. It was usually on a weekend afternoon. You get a lot of kids out. And you figured out who had the hardest shot on the team, who was the fastest skater and then the best scores from around the league got invited to

the skills competition. And it was for the exact same reason that he suggested. Like, let's find out who really has the hardest shot. Let's find out who really is the fastest skater. Maybe we create some new stars, some new moments. And they did it for a few years. And I don't know why they stopped. But I do, I have a suspicion. And the thing is, when you do these competitions, what you find out a lot of times is the guys who do have the hardest shots or are the fastest skaters at least on a Sunday afternoon are not the guys that you necessarily want to consider his marquee players. And so you wind up with situations where like in 1996, the hardest shot competition

at the All-Star Skills competition was won by Dave Manson. Now, Dave Manson was a good player. Dave Manson was a better player than a lot of people remember. I know he's remembered for certain things. I think we'll get to it a little bit. but Dave Manson was a pretty good player and he did have a hard shot. But when you're talking about

Shea Weber, Zadano Cher, all of these, there's a reason why Dave Manson doesn't really show up very high on those lists. And some of the guys in the fastest skater competition that year, like Derek Plann, Brett Hedekin was in the fastest skater competition, good players and pretty cool to see if you're like a Canucks fan

and you turn on your TV and there's Brett Hedigan going head to head with Peter Bondra for the fastest skater. But it may be not kind of, kind of the marquey guys. And then there were also issues around like some people had some doubts about the numbers that were getting reported in certain markets. So I think ultimately the NHL decided let's really focus on the guys that we think are stars, even if it maybe isn't as true a competition as you might think, because sometimes the end result is you get a guy

showing up at your all-star weekend who isn't really an all-star by any definition that most fans would have. All right. As we wrap up here, Sean, that's the perfect segue. I never thought Dave Manson was going to be the perfect segue into something, but here we are. This week in hockey history, Sean, it's been 30 years, okay, since this happened. And I want you to paint the picture because, again, Dave Manson was a central character in this. We take you back to St. Patrick's Day, 1991, a Norris Division game, regular season game,

between Chicago Blackhawks and the St. Louis Blues goes off the race. What happened? Yeah. So it's, it's, so first of all, let's paint the picture. This is, like you said, it's the Norris Division. The Blues and the Blackhawks are both really good. This was the year they were both fighting it out for the president's trophy. So a lot of times when you think about Norris Division hockey, you're thinking it's two teams that weren't very good.

These teams are really good, and they hate each other. And they are meeting up for a late season game, and it's in Chicago and it's St. Patrick's Day. So you can imagine what that crowd was like. let's just say a lot of the fans in the building that night had been pretty well lubricated by the time they showed up to watch that game. So the building, the old Chicago Stadium was electric every night. It was one of the best buildings in sports. But on this night in particular, those fans were ready for some action. The teams didn't like each other.

There was a history that the blues were mad at Jeremy Roanick about a hit he had thrown. So they were going after him earlier in the game. And then in, I want to say the second period, this line brawl breaks. out during a line change. So it's not a bench clearer, but there's more than just five on five. There's a lot of guys out there. And this line brawl breaks out and the place

just goes nuts. And the main event is Dave Manson of the Blackhawks. Scott Stevens then, his one year with the St. Louis Blues, they had history from when Stevens was with the capitals. They had had some run-ins that

got really ugly. And they square off. Initially, they find each other in the corner and they go, you want to go? Okay, they skate out to center ice. They get away from everybody. If you've ever seen the clip on YouTube or if you were a fan of the time, you remember it. I mean, it was just one of those marquee moments from a very different era. I mean, I'm sure if you're a new fan, it's, I mean, these two guys are skating to center ice to punch each other in the face.

It probably strikes you as something odd. And yeah, but back then, this is what the North Division was. Crowd is going crazy. They square off in their throwing haymakers. I mean, this is, this was just one of the, one of the signature fights of the 90s. And it was just one of those memorable moments and it came to be known as the St. Patrick's Day massacre that brawl. Not to be confused with the Good Friday massacre, which was a different NHL brawl related massacre named after a religious holiday. Yeah.

Yeah. You know what? Here's my theory on this. The Blackhawks in the Blues that year, Sean. ended up first and second overall at the end of the regular season. But they both got taken out by the Minnesota North Stars. My theory has always been they beat each other up on St. Patrick's Day and they just left themselves vulnerable to Minnesota.

They punched each other out into exhaustion and then a very bad Minnesota team cashed in their money in the bank and went all the way to the Stanley Cup final and almost won a Stanley Cup. Yeah. Okay. Real quick, I still don't think that's the craziest thing that's ever happened on St. Patrick's Day in the NHL. March 17th, 1955, something called the Richard riots, where basically there was tear gas inside the Montreal Forum, there was riots outside. And that is because that is the day NHL President Clarence Campbell suspended Montreal Canadian star Rocket Richard for the remainder of the season and the playoffs because of a stick swinging incident in which Richard hit a linesman.

Here's my only question to wrap up the podcast, Sean. At what point did Clarence Campbell think to himself? You know, I just suspended Rocket Richard for the season. You know what's a good idea? I think I'm going to go to the game tonight with my wife on St. Patrick's Day. That's where it all fell apart because this is obviously one of the most famous events in hockey history. One of the most famous events in Canadian history, period. And that's where it all fell apart because the suspension was controversial and fans were furious.

but it was when he showed up at the game. And I'm sure he thought, you know what, I'm not backing down. I'm going to, if they're mad at me, I will show my face. And if they want to boo me, they can boo me. But they didn't want to boo him. What they wanted to do was walk up, pretend like they were going to shake his hand and then sucker punch him, which is what one of the fans did. And then next thing, you know, yeah, people are throwing smoke bombs and there's tear gas.

And there's a riot that is going through downtown Montreal that goes on, you know, not just for a few hours. I mean, this was an extended riot. Rocker Richard himself had to go on the real. radio and ask the fans to stop burning the city down, it was just an absolutely ridiculous and crazy moment and probably doesn't happen if Clarence Campbell doesn't decide that he's going to, he's going to show his face in the Montreal forum. Yeah, no, just an unbelievable story.

And again, a great way to end the podcast because it's always fun to go down memory lane. Sean, have a great weekend, as always. This was a ton of fun and we'll do it again next week. Sounds good. Talk then. All righty. And a reminder before we check out here that March Madness is here, the Athletics College basketball crew, will bring you the Ding You presented by BetMGM.

We've got all the action for you, both on the court. And at the sports book, we'll grab the insight from the athletics college basketball writers, and we'll always be picking the brain of BetMGM's top bookmakers. And you can join us for a second round discussion as March Badness is back. That comes your way Sunday morning at 9 a.m. Eastern time on the Daily Ding's feed. And it is streaming as well. on the Athletics YouTube channel.

I'll be back in this seat on Monday to wrap up the weekend that was with Haley Salvean. Thank you so much for joining us. A reminder, you can drop your questions to us at The Athletic Hockey Show at gmail.com. And if you're not a subscriber, you can do so by joining us at theathletic.com slash hockey show.