The Athletic Hockey Show - Franchise rankings in the salary cap era, Peter Laviolette officially joins the New York Rangers and Patrick O'Sullivan on the evolution of the NHL skills coach

Episode Date: June 20, 2023

Craig and Sean welcome former NHL'er Patrick O'Sullivan to the Athletic Hockey Show USA to look back at the 2003 NHL Draft in Nashville, quite possibly, the greatest draft in the history of the game, his experience being drafted by Minnesota in the second round that year, what it was like to play against a 10 year old Alex Ovechkin and the evolution of the NHL and independent skills coach, which Patrick has done for the past several seasons.Craig and Sean discuss Peter Laviolette's new gig with the New York Rangers, NHL franchise rankings in the salary cap era, Hockey Hall of Fame voting and we preview the Tuesday boyzzz annual end of season awards which will be presented on our final show of the season, on July 11th.Subscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowThis episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/ NHLSHOW and get on your way to being your best selfSign up for a Chime Checking Account today to link your paycheck. It only takes two minutes and doesn’t affect your credit score. Get started at chime.com/nhlshowHead to factormeals.com/nhlshow and use code NHLSHOW50 to get 50% off your first boxFor 15% off MudWtr go to mudwtr.com/hockeyshow and use code HOCKEYSHOW to support the show and get a discount!Stay cool and dry all summer with Birddogs and get a FREE Yeti-style tumbler at birddogs.com/athletic use promo code ATHLETIC at checkout Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. Hey, everybody. This is Craig Custin's welcoming Sean Gentilly and you, listener, to the Athletic Hockey Show. Oh, Sean, you're ready to jump in. Hey, hey, Craig, thanks for having me. Glad to be here. How are you? I'm here to welcome you.

Hey, hey, everybody, this is the second to last episode of the American Edition Tuesday, Boy's Athletic Hockey Show ever. Second to last. That's not true. We have this show. That's not true. We have July 11th when we're doing the awards that you all nominate. So by the way, listener, if you haven't gone into the comment section of the app of one of our episodes and given us a suggestion for a American themed hockey award, which we'll be giving out at a live event in Vegas on July 11th,

With actual players showing up to accept, right? We got that lined up in time, didn't we? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ico got back to me. Okay, good, good. Did Joe Pavelle? The real question is to the Dallas Stars and Joe Pavelleckes because he's up for three awards. Stars are, the stars are sending all there guys, Robertson, Pavellski, Ottinger.

They're like, hey, yeah, you can have. So that, so first of all, get those nominations in. And second, just, hey, savor this show because you might be going all summer, long or ever as far as I'm concerned. Stop saying that. It's not funny. We got to talk at the draft. I meant to tell you, I put some time on your calendar to talk at the draft in Nashville

about the future of the athletic hockey show. Shut up. So, hey, this is way too long into the intro to say what we have going today. But Patrick O'Sullivan joins us. Patrick's O'Sullivan, it's the 20-year anniversary of what I'm willing to say. A lot of people are saying it. the best draft of all time, the 2003 draft. And so producer Jeff lines up Patrick.

And we go a little bit down memory lane in that draft. And it was a lot of fun. Like that, just a great idea by Jeff. And Patrick was amazing. That's the second segment. Here's how good he was. We didn't even bring up the photo. Yeah, we did.

Five seconds in. It barely came up. He didn't, like, you think I didn't initially have like six minutes blocked out to talk about that. I was going to have him rank all the people's haircuts in it, whatever. It was not necessary. He gave us everything we needed on a whole bunch of stuff about his work as a skills coach. It was awesome.

Have we done, has anybody done like the spread layout of that photo with arrows explaining each person and like the story behind it? Like has that happened at like ESP on the magazine or the athletic? I think it, I think it's something that probably. probably happened when those guys were, I think that's something that probably happened when those guys were in their primes, like 10 years ago, when they were really still, you know, had to run over the league.

Because by then, because by then the hairstyles were far enough out for people to laugh. If I showed that to my kids, they'd be like, was this, was this taking the other day at the high school? No, no joke. I'm assuming Cormick's working on an Eric Stahl level, like, front shag or whatever. It really is for sure.

I'm not, I'm being, I know. And, and if he could get frosted tips, if I would allow it, he probably would do it. You got to stand firm on that one. You got to do them a favor. I do a lot of that, a lot of just defense. I'm like, just like, buddy, here's what's going to happen. You're going to be in college. You're going to be, you're going to bring someone home to meet us.

Yeah, the good thing we're going to have one less bit of ammo to throw at you. But he, the middle school, he's going into middle school. They do not care about any of that. They're like, no, I won't, I won't regret any of this. I'm like, yeah, you will. Hey, Peter Lavellette is going to be announced today. The worst secret in hockey, New York Rangers hiring Peter Lavellap. Sean, I know this.

I know this, this hiring really bothers you. I'm going to, I'm going to kill you. Sean gets so mad about the recycled coaches. I, for one, think Peter Lavellette is the most qualified candidate for the ranger's job. Who'd you want to get this job? Once again, my takes are being confused with those of Shana Goldman. I don't really care. Because everyone's like, wow, look at this really smart trenchant observation from Sean.

And I have to say, actually, that was Shana. Maybe because 90% of your bylines are with Shana. Did you ever think of that? It's not true. Shot talk. 90% of my pilot. 90% of my balance are with Tom and Russo. The shoes on the other foot now, my friend,

because I can say that I'm not the anti, like, hire people for their second or third jobs. I don't care. Sometimes it's the right call. Sometimes, you know, the situation dictates a person like Peter Lavillette getting hired. I don't have a problem with that. And it's a case-by-case basis. It's like a milk toast take, but...

That's what we're here for. Do you really... That's the home of milk toast takes and inside jokes about our workplace. That... Who else would you want hiring or coaching that team? Like, Arranger's fans, man? Do you want like... I think they probably are because they...

They probably felt like at the outset they were getting Mike Sullivan or something, and it feels like somehow you're settling here. Which never were. Was never going to happen? Not ever. Yeah. Never, never, never. But so, um,

go ahead. No, you go ahead. They have stuff they should be mad about. Things aren't going well there. It seems like there's dole and meddling happen. I think people can connect the dots as to what's going on at the top of that organization. Their fans should be pissed for sure.

But in terms of the hire that they made there, I don't, it doesn't, it doesn't make a ton of sense of me. We've seen Peter Lavio let come into situations like that. Yes, it's in the increasingly distant past. at this point.

But I think his track record, his approach, it makes sense. If you're going to fire Gerard Gallant and if plan A is going to be this pie in the sky nonsense of them getting Mike Sullivan away from the Pittsburgh Penguins, which is again, never going to happen, not ever, never, not once. If plan B is Peter Lavillette, eh, it's fine. It could have been worse. Now, you said you don't mind guys getting their second and a third job. This is his sixth, but that's fine. Whatever. Because honestly, I don't mind it.

How many times he's been employed as a head coach since the 2001, no, excuse me, the 2001-2002 season, how many times do you think he's missed the playoffs? So we're going on, whatever it is, 20 plus years. Okay, so it happened once with the caps. Did it happen at the end with the Preds? I know the Preds have very, I probably have in ones with the Preds. I'm saying three. Yeah, you got the, you know, so the year he gets fired, or excuse me, I was actually corrected by somebody in Washington about this.

They didn't fire him. They just split. They decided to not renew. Yeah, G. Wiz. Who do you think corrected you on that one? I don't know, Sean. What's the topic of your new book, actually?

Nashville, I can't, we're not a lot to talk about it. Simon Sheesters put it on lockdown. I'm no longer allowed. We will announce it when we're ready, folks. Nashville, last year he didn't. His last year in Philly, he didn't. Yeah, so it's like the final year. Oh.

They get sick of them. And it stops working and then he leaves and goes somewhere else and it works good. No, I'm even reading this wrong. I think he missed more than that because Hockey TV is labeling. He's weird. But he tends to do well. Like, even Washington's two years room. I think the principal stands, right?

He's, he's, like, he, like, the capitals who, you know, whatever we think of them, they were 44 and 26 a year ago. Like, with whatever fumes they're running on over there. Lots of injuries, lots of, um, lots of injuries. And then, and then Brian McLaughlin wisely, I mean, hit the button, smashed it, hit the trade deadline and was like, was like, was like, like, okay, this isn't working this year. And the end result was you got a shitload of draft picks in Erasmus and Dean.

So way to go. Good job. Smart move. But that team, did they absolutely suck out loud after the holidays? Like, basically from Jan 1 on for sure. There was a point they were actually pretty good. Wasn't there this year? Like, I think they were like, they started off the season decent.

Like in an alternate. They started off, okay. They had some injuries. Charlie Lindgren bailed them out big time for a few weeks there. kind of kept them afloat and then once the calendar flipped they were they were junk but you know it happens there's not a ton of talent on that team to begin with at this point they're they're cycling through and trying to trying to start over and seemed like doing a half decent job at it so whatever it was time to go yeah all right before we get to patrick o'solivin we shouldn't even delay

this at all but you wrote with mike russo instead of shane i was surprised she wasn't around or You don't even know what's going on in your own, in your own sector. Come on. I know, I know you're like seven layers above me now, but go on. You wrote what I thought was a really cool concept. You ranked the salary cap era franchises by using a point system. So to break it down for you folks, 11 points if you want to stay on the cup, five points if you lost in the final, three points if you made it to a conference final and lost,

and one point for making the playoffs. And you totaled it up. And I will say, go ahead. Cheat, great call. I'll kill the joke now. This is something you did for a couple years back, way back in 2021 when you decided, when you graced us with your writing, low those many years ago. And now in 2023, you told someone to tell someone to tell someone to tell someone to tell

someone to tell Rousseau to tell me to work on this. That's right. I'm just trying to get you free subviews. and subscribes. Well, guess what? What, brother, the results are in? I think it's starting to work. The best team.

So this is, it was, it was, it was, yeah, it was, it was, it was more fun. It was, it was, it was, um, I think it was illustrative in a lot of ways. Honestly, there was, there was, there was. Yeah. So what, what's interesting about this to me. A, it just kind of resets, like, what, we, you get caught in your head of like, what a good franchise is in the stretch of like, what's recently happened. And you're like, oh, wait, there's actually been, like, like, I, when I looked at

the list, the first he had jumped out to me, the ducks are sixth, like the sixth best team. And you get caught up in, oh, it hasn't been well for a while there. And you're like, oh, they've actually had a really good run. Maybe that we should be giving them more credit. And they also didn't win enough that you were like the second best team in the league a couple of times in that stretch. So there's some surprises in there.

I always like these. Like, this is my favorite thing where I could pull out a ranking where it wasn't my fault when people were mad. I was just like, this is completely subjective. This is it. And. Blame the spread. Blame the spreadsheet.

This is the model. So, like, no surprise to me at the top. You know, if you're, it's Pittsburgh one, I'm not going to run through it, but it's a T, it's Pittsburgh and Tampa and Chicago, all these teams that have won multiple cups in this era. I think I was surprised that Detroit is hanging on in the top six. How good were they for so long that the Red Wings haven't really been relevant in a playoff discussion since the launch of the athletic. I can tell you that.

That's, yeah. We launched the athletic Detroit and we're like, you know what we're going to do? We're going to ride the Red Wings. The data to back it up. We're going to ride the success of the Red Wings right to start up glory. And then they just, they've been in perpetual rebuild. I think it's an indicator of how good they were for the first 11 or 12 years of the cup pair and I think it's a it's an indictment of the quality of the rest of the league like there's so many teams there based on this formula that you know you cooked up a few years ago which I think is correct by the way that you don't want to just reward playoff appearances all that much like give them a point for getting in fine but you know you don't want to you don't want to overdo it

it's biased towards actual measurable success which it should be in a league where in so very recently more than half of the teams made the play season. So, fine. But I think whenever you have so many teams, year after year, they're getting like one point out of a potential 11 and whatever else. And then maybe they take a break and miss the next year. You know, it's just a recipe for mediocrity. So when, so they're not going to catch up. Teams like that aren't going to catch up to, you know, the wings or the ducks or teams that have had a real ultimate success over the course of the last, you know, 18 seasons or however long, however long it's been. And it is funny to look at this.

Like Rousseau, like me and Rousseau, once we had the calculations finished, we went through and Rousseau was like, oh, I got the ducks are, ducks are six. Like, she's like, and I'm going to re-check the spreadsheet. What do you want, man? That's it. There it is. I think. So, yeah, it is.

It's interesting. And I don't want you, I mean, you're giving me credit for cooking it up. I just, as I did everything, stole it from somebody else. Bob Stern had done this in the NFL. He's been doing it for years in the NFL, kind of Super Bowl rankings. And so kind of just came, cook the numbers to, as I was accused of back then, by Leafs fans, of trying to create something where the Leafs were last, because I think they were at the bottom of this, you know, when I was doing it.

I think the most impressive thing to me is that you have a team in the Vegas Golden Knights in the top 10 that didn't exist for how much of this cap era, like a large percentage of it. And while we're talking about it's just so people who haven't actually seen the post and, you know, get an idea of the point system. It's very simple. You get 11 for winning the point system. You get, you said that? I don't pay attention when you're talking about. Yeah, let's run through to get, hey.

I love that. Wait, so you took shit a couple years ago because they thought they devised it because it was like, this is a system that's meant to reward playoff success. And people are saying, well, you're, of course. Well, if that's your rubric, then you're trying to screw the leaves. It was clickbait. It's unbelievable. What does self-owned that is? You did this so you could put the Leafs last to sell subscriptions.

I'm like, yep. Yeah, I had them not win a playoff round. You got us. They're tied for 28th. Still. Still. Just an inch ahead of the Columbus Blue Jackets Dynasty. Way to go.

So because I want to get to Patrick O'Sullivan and I don't want to linger here too much, but it's a fun. So what, you've basically covered the league in this era, essentially. So it's kind of a fun exercise. More than not. What is it? What do you think? Do you think this checks out? Do you think what is the best team to you of the Salad Cap era?

Best franchise. The Penguins. Because you're from Pittsburgh, Sean. The Penguins still have it. And Tampa very, very realistically, could pass them in the next couple years. And when they pass them, you say, you know, new face at the top. Way to go. But as it stands in 2023, you know, the team that has the longest playoff streak, a bunch of financial success, the best player in the most Stanley Cup wins, they win.

Sorry. I know it's Homer's shit for me. It's true, though. Like, I want to come up with an argument in favor of the lightning because that would be my next one up. because they've been good, like, they've been good longer than people realize. But there was also the whole, like, there was the era right before they got good. That was kind of a train. And also, it took them, it took them longer to get over the hump than Pittsburgh did, which,

which has affected, which has affected the point total. Like, if there's a few years at the start of this where Tampa maybe, you know, goes on another run to the conference final or something like that, then the gap, the gap would be a little bit tighter than 52 points to 46 points, but it isn't because they didn't. I'm going to raise one more question because this, this reminds me just how long the Red Wings rebuild has taken. All these other teams at the top are swinging back around, like the Kings and the Black, the Blackhawks, I don't know, I'll leave them out of it.

But, you know, the Bruins kind of did a reset. The Capitals believe they're going to do so. The Blackhawks have only been bad. The Blackhawks have only been bad for three years. Yeah, the Red Wings spun into a ditch. I don't know. I'm looking at it going, what's got to happen for them to get back into this conversation? And they're not even close. They need a free agency piece. And some, they should find some way to do like a sign and trade deal, whether it's the brinket, whether it's another center, whatever it is. Somebody should want to play there. We've said this before. I like Eric Carlson to Detroit. A major player, a major player should force his way to Detroit because the amount of money that you'd make.

Even if it's just on the local promotions, you'd be on TV all the time or local endorsements. You'd be on TV constantly. Like, someone should turn the screws in land there. It's a good team that's just missing someone, you know, another, another A plus piece. So they should lean into it. They should. He hasn't meant to threaten somebody. Really scare the hell out of one of his, out of one of his peers.

I mean, there's, I agree. Like, it's time for that. they need to get back up. It's, it's, you're at a point where you can really question what's going on because it's taken so long. And I, I think a lot of it is bad luck,

really, like a, you know, a lot of bad luck, a lot of picking fourth through seventh or whatever. And you can't sit there and say they've missed. So that's a big part of it. But it's,

as they dropped down these rankings, because if you had done this five years ago, they probably are so locked in at the top or near the top that, you know. They haven't. added, they have the same, by this method, according to this rubric, they have the same amount of point totals now, or the same point total now as they did in 2016. They have, they literally haven't added a single point, you know, to the franchise ranking number in seven years,

which like, and they're still six overall. It's crazy. Yeah, I mean, that just shows how good they were. It shows how good they were and it shows how terrible they were. All right. We're going to take a quick break while you're listening to the great ad reads by Sean, which I'm sure are really good this week. Give us your nominations for our final awards show ever. The American Awards, depending on you. Listener. We'll be right back. We are now thrilled to be joined by Patrick O'Sullivan. You know them at most of those of you in the United States, hero of the 2004 World Junior. Really, that's all we want to talk about is glory days with the, with the, with the the U.S. program, Patrick, if we can.

That would be perfectly fine with me. I would agree. Most people know me from that. And most Canadian people know me as the guy that ruined their weekend. That's right. Yeah. There you go. We love it. Patrick, we wanted to have you on for any number of reasons.

You know, you, we can get into whatever we want here. Producer Jeff is, you and him were close working together at series. is Sean and I are going to be leaving in a few days to go to Nashville for the draft. And it's, and Jeff even sent us the famous picture of you all in 0, what was the 04 draft? Or 03 draft? Yeah, 03. 20 years ago in Nash. And I love, you know, does it seem like yesterday or a million years ago when you think of like that moment in time? Yeah, it's interesting.

I think the common answer to questions like that is it feels a little bit like, And I feel like I kind of fit into that. I mean, a lot's happened in 20 years that that draft was, you know, from purely hockey element, which I'm guessing we'll probably get into is so deep with really good players. And I just remember going into the draft knowing that. I don't know if that's always the case, but I would like to just share that little tidbit about that age group. It was very deep and everybody kind of knew it.

And even I go back to when I was 10, around 10 years old, I played in a summer hockey tournament. And Ovechkin was on a team for Russia. And the team that I was on ended up having six or seven guys that played in the NHL, right? So which is very uncommon at that age. Yeah, very uncommon. A group of 10-year-olds, yeah.

Yeah, exactly. But I'm bringing it up because he score, I think he scored eight goals in the game. I think we lost eight six and he scored eight goals, right? So as kids growing up, like I think the really good players, you always kind of know that you're good and you're comparing yourselves, you know,

to other players. And then it's not really until you start playing internationally that you realize It's like, oh, there's all these other really good players because there's people outside of North America. So I think that was one thing that was pretty cool going into that draft. And it does on one hand feel like it was yesterday. I had a unique experience given my family situation at the draft. So there's always all these little kind of extra things that go along with the normal draft experience,

which I still really, I really enjoyed it. I had, I think I had in some ways a very similar experience. of most people who get picked. And I remember that day very clearly. And, you know, like at the same time, it's 20 years. My oldest son is 12. So, you know, a lot. There's a lot of things that.

Yeah, a lot's happened. And it does feel like it's forever ago. And I'm just glad people get to go to Nashville and experience that city for the draft weekend. And I may or may not have been seen out a couple nights that I probably should. Yeah. And maybe that weekend, that wasn't the best decision. But I would advise the players as far as it might be to just stay in the hotel, at least until the draft part is over.

Nah, they're going to be sneaking in the back door at Tutsis or whatever. I hope so. Something tells you they're going to find their ways into the various. There's nobody in the hockey world judging anybody for going out. Nashville. Like, that's the one city where it's like, you know what, if we were anywhere else, it would be, uh, we would, this would be a red flag. All right, before we get into that 03 draft, because I do want to run, I'm going to, for people who aren't like studied on it, we'll run through some of the names. But what was 10

year old Alex Ovechkin like? I need to know. I did not know this story. I mean, very similar to what you see now and, and like the type of player that, that he is. He's just, and he was six one, one 95 or whatever at that point. He was, he was, he was relatively big for his age. I, you know, I remember. I, it was just, it was just jarring because I, I just looking at it through the lens of a, of a player who was good for my age and, and, and also having many others on that, that very specific team.

And then this other player, just being better than everybody else, it was just so clear that he was better. So, um, and then, you know, as, as you get older, realized like he actually had a later birthday. So he wasn't even in our draft, right? He was he was the next year 2004, but he could shoot. He, you know, he played a very similar style. And I think, I think that might be his greatest strength is just knowing what he is. And, yeah, okay, you make small adjustments and you get a little bit slower over time as you, as you get older as a player. But he's always stuck to what he does well. And I think a sidebar to that is how much, how much

much he loves hockey and scoring. Yeah. So, yeah, like, it's clear to see. And everybody knows that now. And there's, there's been a lot of probably stories done on that specific thing, like, just how much he loves to score. But I think that that's one thing that gets stripped away from a lot of players as they become NHL players because of a couple of reasons.

It's obviously very hard to score. So a lot of guys end up becoming something that they, that they weren't maybe as a younger player and that's part of what you have to do to make adjustments to stay in the league if you aren't going to be a purely offensive guy but it's so much of the NHL is about winning and kind of you you are part of the team whatever's best for the team is is what's best for you and that mindset is very important and you need that certainly need that to win but he see he seems to have always been able to keep that individual passion for scoring and when you can do it as well as well as he can. It's obviously going to help your team in tons of ways. And I think,

you know, to go back to the question, at 10 years old, you could see that. It was like, this guy just wants to score every time he touches the puck. Yeah, that's amazing. All right. So the O3 draft, and while we run through this, if you're listening and you want to just Google Dionne-F Frosted Tips to play along with the photo. It'll tell you. It'll tell you everything you need to know. It'll tell you everything you need. So this is the draft for Mark Andre Fleuriego's one, then it's Eric Stahl, then we're just going to fly down. Vanek and Ryan Suter and Deanne Finoff and Jeff Carter and Dustin Brown and Zach Brisey and Ryan Gatslap and Brent Burns. I mean, Kessler, Mike Richards, this is Cory Barry, Patrick Eves. That's just round one. Louis

Erickson, I mean, it's, it's unbelievable. So what, Shea Weber, we're getting in a round two. And like, so one of the things I always thought I was going to do was an oral history of this draft. Like, I just think the story, the storytelling behind it, and there's some Mark Andre Flurry stories, even going at the top, like that Alan Walsh has shared, like, you know, like, like, just, it's, it's wild. Was it one of those where you kind of knew where you were slotted? I mean, even right after you, it goes Backus and Jimmy Howard and, like, Danny Carcillo, just unreal. And this goes on throughout the whole draft. It was just unbelievable. I've never seen anything like this. Yeah, the depth, like I touched on it earlier,

we knew going in that like you never know for sure obviously that that a player is going to have success at the NHL level even if they're good before that right but it felt like we all kind of knew and maybe it was just the way that the players in that age group played and what I mean is like you knew right the way Ryan Kessler played yeah he was going to be an effective an NHL player and you know there's there's a long list of other guys you look at where Bergeron was drafted, it's funny. It's almost meeting now, given how good he is. Didn't even bring him up, by the way.

I mean, I was just running down the draft. I didn't even get to, was it, round three? Crazy. I think he was in the second round, but he's a second round. You know, like, Pavalski's pick late in that draft, and there's, there's, I think it's the best draft depth-wise, for sure. You might say there's some others with more star power, quote, unquote, but one thing that's happened with the old three draft is guys have played so long.

It's like you get obviously the the recency bias of what you see. Like watching Eric Stahl in the playoffs doesn't look anything like he looked. Go watch Eric Stahl in 2005. He's one of the best. Yeah, like a best player. Yeah. Yeah. Like an unbelievable player.

And I played against him in junior. And you could tell right away, you know. And so I just think that was the one thing with that kind of group of players is. you knew, we knew, you know, we were competitive. And I think that the international hockey element of all that really exposes guys to everyone around that age. And so by the time you get drafted, you already know who everybody is and you're looking to see, well, you know, how good can I be as we enter pro hockey, right? And I think that that group was just a really competitive, talented, but also kind of, I would say, welcoming to the idea that I just want to play in this league.

And so, you know, that careers have taken different shapes and whatnot. But I just think the longevity of that, that age group and the way guys have been able to adjust over time to be different types of players to continue playing. And maybe you end up hurting your points per game for some of them. But, you know, that's not anything a guy like that cares about anyways, right? So just just the depth. the overwhelming depth and like just i you knew at 17 18 19 that that there's a lot of pros here like there's a difference and i think some some people struggle with that these days when we

talk about training players and teaching players what's important and what isn't and what's actually going to help them as they get older and that for whatever reason maybe it's just luck but that that that kind of group of players from all over the world whether that's a coincidence or whatever, but you just knew that it was going to be something that worked. I don't know if it's a coincidence or if you've pushed each other in some way. I mean, who knows? But like, let's say you lop off this draft where it is now after seven rounds. And we're going into this, this group would be the undrafted group.

This would be Toby Endstrom, who I loved when I was in Atlanta, like just loved watching Toby Nstrom play for like a player that, you know, people aren't thinking of right now, but was a great player. Dustin Bufflin undrafted. Shane O'Brien would have been undrafted. Matt Moulson and 200 career goals or whatever he scored. Like the Yarrow Halak, like these are all players after the cutoff now. I don't know.

It's just, I love that stuff. I know. Unbelievable group. It's deep. It's deep. And I, you know, I was looking at some stuff and people always talk about what's the best draft. I think depending on how you want to look at it, you might get a couple different answers.

I think 2015 is going to end up being one that's, that's very good. 10 years you look at it might be similar. But with both three, I just think the depth, the depth that's there is kind of hard to argue with. Superstars, at one time, there were a bunch, maybe not so much now. I mean, there's only a handful left. But if you want to talk about, like, you know, this guy, I want on my team because he's an NHL hockey player from right when he started hockey

until it was done. And for some guys, that's longer than others. I just think that draft's hard to argue with. Yeah, if you're putting together a lineup or whatever. Yeah, if you want to ding that draft

because there's not like a Mount Rushmore player on it, right? There's not, there's like, okay, Ovetkin and Crosby, like aren't in it. Like, okay,

whatever. Like, Patrice Bergeron, like Ryan, Kessler was like, who was like, who was like, Ryan,

Kessler was one of the five best players in, in the league. like before he got hurt, I don't know, man. It's tough to, it's tough to find any weak spots there. Yeah. If you just said,

like, we're going to build a team. We're going to build a starting. It has to be, it has to be them. It has to be you guys, right? Like,

Jesus Christ. I would agree. I, I just think, I just think that there's so many, like, different types of players, too.

And, you know, the Oveatchkin one is kind of, you know, he's, he's picked, if he's born too much, earlier he's in that draft.

Crosby's a couple years after that. So, I mean, I kind of, when I look at about guys around my age, I mean, Crosby might as well be involved in that that same kind of three or four year. We didn't, yeah, we haven't mentioned Nathan Horton, right? Who is in the draft?

Like, who if he were healthy, holy hell. Sorry to cut you off. No, no, no, no. Please. I'm, I feel bad not mentioning him myself because he, obviously some, some players, you don't see until you're 17, 18, whatever, right?

But I feel fairly confident in saying he was the best player of them all when we were kids. Like he was absolutely dominant. He did grow a little bit earlier than some other kids, but he's, you know, he's, him and I played junior when we were 13, which now is not allowed, but we played junior B. he played in a different league but it was the same level and I saw him in minor hockey and he was unbelievable

and obviously a very good NHL player too hurt by injuries yeah and the back stuff I would say too the way he was developed once he turned pro he would have been

I think been allowed to do some things nowadays that he wasn't back then it was like oh you're big so we need to do this He could shoot. He hit his skill set. He's so skilled. Oh my God.

He was an amazing player. And it's like back then, 15, 20 years ago, if you kind of got in with a certain team that wanted you to do certain things, or maybe you were exposed to the NHL too early, which I think my opinion, maybe he was and he was forced to play a certain way, just to play at that level, right? You do sacrifice some development. But, I mean, you could say that with lots of different players. and the path that everybody takes is different.

It's easy to look at things after the fact. But he, yeah, he was a phenomenal player growing up. Did somebody try to draft Alex Ovechkin that draft too? That's right. The Panthers, the Panthers did.

They tried to argue, somebody tried to argue them into a, it was like, if you count leap years and all this other stuff, like, yeah, it was the Panthers, I think.

I think you're right. I don't have any, I can't remember the detail on that, but I do to think. That's one of those things. I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's true necessarily. It's true. It's true. It's 100% true. I know that I've, I've either written it or wanted to write it or, but I've definitely talked to people about somebody like going to Gary or saying, hey, we think it's a, we think we have a loophole here to draft Alex Ovechkin in the 03 draft. I don't blame them for trying.

So like, you mentioned player development and how things have changed. And I love, this is a topic that I'd love to get into because I mean, this is a space you're in now. And when you talk about those changes, like where do you see the biggest difference between you take a group or you take a player like Nathan Horton or yourself and that now versus then? Well, I think there's a lot. I think, first of all, the idea that this type of thing is important to have kind of built into your organization that's alongside of that's working with the actual coaches, right? whether they're the minor league coaches or the NHL level coaches. Because you don't get a finished product when you draft the player.

And so everyone wants to talk about, well, we're going to build through the draft and we're going to develop players. But where is the development? I can tell you firsthand when I was drafted, there was no development. It was like, well, you got to get better. And if you don't figure it out, you won't play. And it's like, you know, they've had development. plan right after the draft and stuff for years like i i went to rookie camp and all that but it was like

it was just it just felt like this you know and it would be like a normal practice and then a scrimmage and it's like well where you you don't you haven't identified what i really need to focus on you haven't you haven't told me what i'm good really good at either it's more like you're skilled and maybe you're a little bit undersized so like you better get harder on the puck or you won't play in the natchel which Could be true, maybe not, but tell me how. I would like to know how. Maybe, you know, like, let's build a plan. And, you know, I don't, I think for a long time, some teams,

I don't paint everybody with the same brush, but there was a lot of teams who didn't understand the level that their prospect was planning at enough. So therefore, if you're trying to figure out, you know, what does player A need to do to be, and I shall player, if you're not able to kind of figure out what they're,

what they're doing at the current level that they're playing, what's a reasonable expectation based on their skill set, what should their, their, you know, what should kind of their numbers look like as it relates to when they're getting the puck and maybe even just the raw scoring numbers or whatever else.

I just think you leave a lot to chance. And I think that's kind of slowly changed, right? So that part has only helped some organizations, maybe more than others, but I think that's a critical part for actually developing the players because otherwise some will make it. But I think maybe not as many as as you could get if you put the time and resources into that part. From what you've seen, has it been a gradual process there or have there been times where it's just sort of like, like watershed like leap ahead moments where it was like was there was there a point where teams are like all right we need to cut the shit and actually and actually devote more time more time and more money and more resources to this or has it just been kind of a more of a gradual come up that's a good

question i think as a player you're kind of only aware really of what your organization is doing and so if I just look at that question from from the standpoint of my career I feel like you know I didn't play super long but eight nine 10 years there really wasn't much of a change for me seeing seeing that and even talking to other players I know around the league and stuff and then once you become quote unquote an NHL player that's one thing that's also different now it's hey I don't care how old I am or where I'm at what I've done I need to get better. I want to get better.

That's really how I think this, certainly this business for people like me has become something that's viable and really important is because the players want it. And I think when certainly, let's say the first half of when I was playing and then you go from being somebody who's just trying to make it to, okay, now you're a player on the team that the coach wants in the lineup day to day. it's almost like poof, everything goes away. I don't need to get any better.

I'm on the team. I'm doing well, well, now, and I don't know exactly when this shifted necessarily. I would say maybe five, six, seven years ago would be my guess. And it's driven by the players. And I know Craig, you've talked to, to Delphrey a lot. And he would have more, because he information about that kind of shift because he was doing this when I was playing.

So I don't know the timeline as well. But like, I think, it's driven by I think the players wanting to continue to get better and the best players I've worked with and seen want to get better more than than some of the players who actually need the help more, right? So part of it's a realization, part of it's just being driven to be the best

and that's how you kind of get there in the first place, right? But I think, I certainly think teams know they need this type of thing in place, the organizations who I think have figured out what type of people and the types of things those people should be doing. I know I'm kind of speaking in bland terms. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. There's a difference between throwing a guy on the ice who's quote unquote skills coach and someone on the ice that knows the players really well and what, you know,

there's some context attached to what's going on. And there's, you know, we could do an entire separate podcast about what's actually helpful and what's, what isn't and what maybe looks like it's helping because by the end you can do something better than you did at the beginning of the hour when you started. But we're talking kind of the big picture organizational beliefs and this is what we need our players to do. We have to help them get to the point where they're efficient in these different types of things so that when they're ready to. to play in the NHL. It's not, wow, this is really different. Or I have a bunch of my own kind of things I do well. I'm hoping this works.

Or maybe the coach will get lucky and find a place to put me. It will be, you know, maybe a small bit of tactical insight that the player already has, right? Because that's what we want to do as an organization. But, you know, they know how to, they know, to simplify it, they know how to protect the puck when, you know, someone's coming from a certain angle. And what that will do for them coming out of a turn when they have to protect the puck,

it's like that's already kind of built in for them because they've seen it. They've seen it on video. They've seen themselves, maybe some other players. And there's a bunch of things that don't work in the NHL. So that's part of it too, is how can we help these guys realize maybe before they even get there? Yeah. The head coach can't be the person that tells a 20-year-old kid, hey, like this is not going to work, right?

That has to happen way sooner. And maybe that's maybe the best way to summarize this whole shift in this area of the game is that no longer happens for most for most teams, right? And that means there's a bunch of other people involved in trying to help somebody become an actual NHL player. I think I can almost pinpoint it. There was, I don't know if it was five or six years ago, but I think there was a generation of players that came in, so skilled and fast because they were getting that training young, maybe in a way that others weren't. I would talk to players in their mid-20s who weren't old,

but they were like, I feel old because these kids are coming in. And the only way for me to keep up with them is to now focus on my own skills. And it wasn't enough just to be the old man in the room and out muscle. It was like there was just this shift where these kids were coming, like the speed in which they were playing and making plays at high speeds, it just changed because I think they were getting so coached up at the skills level coming up since they were, you know, and I just remember talking to players that were

blown away by 20-year-olds coming in doing things they'd never seen. Yeah, I mean, you could see it. By that point, I had been, I'd been done playing, but there's guys my age still playing at that point that I know and the communication that takes place, just talking about the game and stuff. And even before I kind of got into what I'm doing now, doing some of the media stuff I was doing, you could clearly see some of these kids are coming in. Maybe they don't completely understand how to use their skill set or they need some adjustments.

They need some adjustments to help them be more effective. But they were certainly coming in at a, you know, qualified enough to really kind of be impact players right away. And that used to be really rare. Part of it is to the organizations and the coaches day to day, the bench coaches, we can call them, willing to have those players to and not force them to be something that they're not. So if I pick you in the second round,

I must really like what you do, right? So my vision of that would be how can we get something similar to what we already like to be something that happens at the NHL level instead of saying, oh, you're good, but you play junior and none of that stuff's going to work. We need to get you to do this, you know. So balancing all that out and also allowing a player to, to be who they are and encouraging that while obviously teaching them. And if they're doing something that's continuing to not be effective, then we need to make

some shifts there. But I think that that kind of goes hand in hand with for sure kids getting training that wasn't available at their 10, 11 years old. And look, I see it now firsthand. I do it with my own kids. And I coach my older son's team. So we do all kinds of stuff. that I didn't do really as a pro.

Not that it's complicated. It's just the idea of these types of things will help you as you move along in hockey. Let's work on them. Let's work on the, you know, like there's lots of different ways you can work on skating. If you have a significant flaw, maybe you need some isolated skating help from a power skating coach or whatever. But I think there's a lot of ways you can work on skating now that just didn't exist. before. And so now, especially some of these American kids that have been in this, this development system they've had for 10, 12, 15 years, it's showing through. And Craig,

I would be surprised if you've, I don't know, your bat, your catalog by heart, but I'm sure you've done some sort of a story on the development program and I played there and going back, that's 20 plus years ago for me. It was already starting to happen there. And so I think now that's just the way things are. And the fight though, unfortunately is there's a lot of people who try to take advantage of parents who have kids that are pretty good players and they're looking for help. And there's a lot of people who just,

they get 20 kids on the ice and they're just collecting money, right? So I think that's, you know, one of the downsides to it is it's become such a business. And people just want their kids to get better. They sometimes end up taking them somewhere that, that is maybe not going to help them. But there's enough, there's enough good people.

And there's enough information too. Like, if you just go on the internet, you can kind of sort it out, right? Like, here's another thing that I'll say, if the person you're working with has their phone out on the ice and they're filming whatever you're doing constantly,

with the idea that they're going to put that on Instagram, you need to go somewhere else. Like, because that's not, you're just trying to get content out of your 11 years. That's good. That's functional advice. That makes sense.

That guy is looking for the perfect rep to put on his Instagram. Now, I'm not saying everybody who puts things on Instagram is like that, but there are many, and that's what the parents see. They're like, oh, that kid looks like he can skate through this obstacle course really well. I'm going to take my kid there, right? So, you know, to shift this into the minor hockey, kids hockey kind of realm, that's what you have to guard against. But there's no question.

The ability to skate and handle a puck and shoot that an 18-year-old player has now compared to when I was 18, the average ability level is much higher. I don't think the best players are much better personally. Right. But I think the mid to the bottom tier of quality of hockey players is better. Something that always interests me about guys like you. who end up in jobs like the one that you have is the balance between taking your own experience as a pro and taking the experience of guys like Nathan Horton who you watched and stuff

and stuff that you witnessed and synthesizing that with maybe newer concepts or stuff that would be better for the individual that you're working with and finding that balance between like, all right, here's what I know, here's what I experience and here's what's best, you know, maybe for this player that I'm teaching in in 2020. Is that, is that a challenge? Is that something you feel like, you know, a push and pull,

you know, versus your lived experience versus, you know, maybe what's, what's, what's best in a given, in a given time period? Yes.

Sean, that's actually, I think the secret to being good at this type of thing is, especially if you played, you have to guard against while I played, and this is how I did. it and you know and i i'm not i'm not trying to dump on those experiences either right because that's that's that's super valid importance like like a plus important that's why you're that's why people

come to you for for this advice is because you have that firsthand experience like i'm i'm not trying to slag it or anything but but there but there's got to be like a counterbalance you know a hundred percent and if you played at a high level that's actually like what if if you are aware of the other things you need to be aware of. And if you continue to educate yourself and if you continue to have this understanding that I don't know everything and I have to continue to make myself better, then the fact that you did play and have all these experiences is kind of the thing that puts you over the edge versus a lot of other people.

That's the way I've viewed it. And there's some other people in this industry that I've come across that don't view it that way. And I think your ability to help somebody, becomes your pool of players you can help I guess becomes much smaller because if you're only going to use your

experiences or you only have these certain set beliefs on how you can help somebody there's going to be a bunch of players that don't fall in to that kind of that system that you're using they're outside of your range of capability

right so that is I think really important to at least go into each situation thinking, well, this guy's a left winger, he shoots, he shoots well, and he's my height. I know, I don't know, I'll just tell him what I did, right? Right. Right.

At the same time, I think if you were a really, you know, you were a good player at a high level, the things you can teach to, you know, not all players, because some of it's position dependent or maybe what they're already good at or not. But the things you were really good at, you can certainly get people's attention with those. And if those players you're working with do need that area, I mean, you definitely have to leverage what you have, right? No matter what you do, and I think any type of business,

or if you're teaching something, that what you do well, you want to try to find a way to use it, you know, as often as you can. And that's something I talk about with players and other people who do this job, you can't just focus on the stuff that you want to do better at. You need to have a better understanding of what you do well, and we need to find more ways for you to do that thing

for multiple things, hopefully, if you're a really good player. So I just think it sounds kind of like a cliche thing, but you do really have to continue to focus on how can I get better, what can I learn, who can I listen to, you know, What can I watch? And I think just that that mindset helps you remain open-minded. And you have to, I think, approach it day to day. And the people who learn from the players they're working with,

and even sometimes it'll be a kid that I'm trying to get them to do something. And I try not to be overly explicit with directions. and there's because there's different ways to do the same things. And so sometimes I'll try to set a drill up to where there's the players being pressured from this side. And I know where the space is that he should eventually get to. And I'm seeing if he can figure that out for himself. And sometimes even a 12, 13-year-old kid will will do that in a way that maybe I wasn't

expecting, right? So you don't always exactly know what. someone's going to be able to do. And I think you've got to be real careful with saying there's only this way that you need, you know, you have to do it. And if you don't do it that way, it's, it's not, it's not going to work. Right. So, and I think that's ultimately with this, with player development, you're trying to take

someone where they are and help them along to the point where they would like to go, whether that's from one level to another, from minor hockey to junior or college or, if you work with pro players, everybody wants to get to the NHL. So how am I going to help that player get from where they are to where they want to go? It's not just telling them things I learned from Rob Blake. Like, that's not going to be the answer. I might help. There's an answer to that, right?

But there's a lot of work and time that goes into, okay. And the more you do this, the more players you see. and then there are certain cases that present themselves in a very similar way. And once you study a player, you can see what they do well and what they don't. And if you have an effective way of doing that, you can kind of get past certain things a lot quicker. And you can get through to the player in a way that lets them kind of latch on to some things. Because the last thing a player wants is, this takes me three months to feel like I'm getting anything out of our work. And I think that's where the video stuff goes hand in hand.

with the on ice. You mentioned kind of to really succeed or to stand out, you can take your base of experience and then kind of keep learning. Where do you turn to learn? Like somebody that has your so much experience, like you have to probably seek it out to learn something new, right? Like what does that look like for you? Yeah, I think I've studied anything I can get my eyes on, basically.

Yeah. So anything that exists, especially pre-in-in-Sygram, Like, I don't want to put that, that kind of platform down. I'm sure there's some great stuff on it. But if, if you go and look, like, Daryl Belfry's a great guy that you can, if you type his name in, and I give him credit for leaving all that stuff up. I know. It's all.

It's all there from years and years ago, right? And I know for sure that he doesn't necessarily even believe in some of it. And maybe he's even said that. I don't know anymore because you evolve. right you evolve right but it's like his whole kind of process is out there which i really respect and um so whether it's him or other people i worked with adam oates for about a year and a half um which was which was really interesting very very smart guy a lot of really good players go to him his skill set's kind of very specific and and helpful to elite players i think they're looking for

something and at the same time he's been able to help some you know, the sixth defense, then seventh defense type of player too. And so you never know, um, what you're going to learn for, from different people. And so,

but yes, like you said, you do have to seek it out. If you just say, well, I'm going to, I'm just going to wait around and, you know,

I played and some stuff will come to me. Or people will just come to me. Like, there's a lot of kids I work with now, 15, 16. They don't even know who I am. They have no idea. They might type it in,

but, uh, that certainly isn't anything that, that I'm going to rely on for trying to help players or certainly get someone interested in in working with me, right? Like you have to have the knowledge like we just talked about with the previous question. And so, you know, seeking out different people to have conversations. I go on, you guys know what Live Barn is?

Yeah. Okay. So that's just a streaming camera service basically that's in a lot of arenas. A lot of, a lot of, most NHL teams will block that if they have that in their practice facility. Some don't. So I'll use that to watch, which I guess if you're allowing people in, you have to, I, I want to see what other people are doing.

I find it really interesting. And so I, I will go and do stuff like that if I need to. I think you just watch practices or whatever. Yeah, practice is. Yeah. Huh. So I think you get to a point where you have some sort of a rough outline of what you do. And you do have to believe in kind of like, okay, this is what I do. I have to be flexible.

I have to have different ways to do different things and still be able to help the player. But this is kind of my system of doing it. And depending on how old you are and how good you are and what type of. of a player you are and what you need, what your strengths are. Some of it starts to kind of plan itself out. And then depending on where you're at in the calendar, then you're doing what you need to do with the player, whether it's on the ice in the season. I have a lot of clients where I just do video stuff with them. And a lot of junior college pro players, I think they like that because it's a third party opinion. And if it's never counter to what a coach I had

coach is telling someone, then I think a lot of the organizations or certainly the college junior teams, because they don't have obviously the budget to have someone like that on staff. So a lot of the players tell their schools or their teams what they're doing and they really like it because it's just, it's free development for them. There doesn't cost them anything, right? So, but yeah, I think just anything, anything I can see, you know, anything I can find going to watch different things live if possible is I think the answer to continuing to find stuff that you might be able to help.

This is a conversation for another day because we're up against it. But NHL teams don't always love it when the skills coach, there's an independent skills coach working with their players. I always love that tug of war. I know. I think some of that is rooted in maybe the relationship that certain people had with that individual at different stages. That's as much as I'll say.

I do know some circumstances. Glad of talking you'd go ahead. That's right. Yeah. Some circumstances with with an individual were it's not like well, we don't think you're doing something you shouldn't be with our player. It's more like, well, you know, we

had a situation that we didn't like in the past maybe and we'd rather you not do that. But I think the best way what I would say as as as someone trying to help a player that's playing in a system and with a team that that I wouldn't be a part of necessarily, um,

you can't help the player unless you're helping the player do the things that is, the coaches want them to do there. So at no point would be telling them to do something that their coaches don't want them to be doing would not help the player. So if you're strictly interested in that, which is what this job is, then there never would be an issue with that, right? So I think that's kind of,

of my approach. There's always things, you got to be careful with the type of language maybe that the coaches are using. Different words can mean, they're usually, it's fairly similar, but I find there's a lot of gimmick language that goes on with head coaches because they're trying to simplify something for the entire team. If we're talking about the forecheck, I might apply a term to F1, what their job is. And I try not, I find when you don't use those terms, the players listen differently.

because they're so used to that stock kind of language. And I'm not saying it isn't helpful from a team step point because I do think it gets everybody on the same page. But if you are forechecking and your stick is in the wrong lane, if I start talking about other more generic basic stuff that you do as a coach because you're trying to get the general message across, you kind of lose that individual direction or attention being brought upon where your stick is, right? Because you might be skating in an angle or on an angle that's correct, but your sticks in the wrong spot.

Maybe that gets addressed with your team. Maybe it doesn't. But I'm just using an example of trying to get the players also a big part of this is getting them to watch themselves in a better way. Because everything now within stat and all the other ways that teams are supplying video to the players directly, I would be surprised if anyone doesn't watch their own shifts, right? Like game to game, maybe it's not right after the game, but at some point you're going to watch at least some of it, right? So part of what I do, I think, is helping players watch themselves.

And, you know, what are the things I need to make sure that I'm seeing when I watch my own shifts that are going to lead to kind of the bigger picture success. If I'm an offensive guy, am I getting the puck enough in these spots? Right? You don't need to walk you through that. You can do that yourself. But I do think, especially if I'm 16, 17 years old, you need to be taught sometimes, not always, sometimes how to do that. And so I think that's part of it too. Awesome. Well, thanks for doing this. This is an awesome conversation. Yeah, thanks for having you guys. I haven't done anything like this in a long time. We could keep going for another 45 minutes,

I know, I know. I really, really wish I. I'm surprised, Jeff, isn't sending us the clock emojis. But this is, this is great. And congratulations on all the successes. Let's sketch up down the road. Thanks very much, guys. Appreciate it.

You know, Sean, my favorite part of that conversation with Patrick O'Sullivan was imagining 10-year-old Alex Ovechkin, like, looking exactly how he does now, only like a miniature version, like gray hair and it's always like, I always love whenever the, whenever the two of us like fight over asking a follow-off? Why, are you thinking about asking that question? Let me tell you something. Let me tell you something. Yeah, it's said great, great stuff from Patrick. So I'd like to see what he does next, too.

Yeah, you feel like he's probably into something good. He said, I bet you, you know what, I bet you, I betcha Patrick lands on his feet with what's next. Planned up to you Or continues to success Something Something tells me That it's all going to work However Patrick

Osolvin, yeah I would also Really quick Just a plug We didn't get into it at all But if you haven't read His book Breaking Away It's an excruciatingly hard read

It's called I'm going to give the full title Proper Respect here Breaking Away Heroing True Story Of Resilience Courage I can't read my own writing

And triumph and it's it's you know gosh it's a tough read but it talks about you know the abuse he went through his dad and I think it's an important read if for no other reason

it might encourage somebody to say hey that dude at the rink that other dad seems like he's not a great dude we're not we're going to go beyond just asking the kid if he's okay like we're gonna like I think that was you know when you read Patrick O'Sullivan's stuff on that

Like that's always the big takeaway. It's like, hey, all it takes is one person to act to save a child. And that person, he needed that person. So not to get serious for a second, but read that. That's true. All right. We'll be right back with our final segment. How many questions?

Have you looked, Sean? Do we have any questions? There's some, yeah. We'll do a quick little spin through it because Patrick comes so long. This is the only good segment on the show. jump into the comments section in the athletic app. Oh, folks, you tap, listen, you scroll around, you close your eyes, you cross your fingers,

you go down and look to an episode that's probably hosted by me and Max, since buddy over there's... Would I miss one episode? It's your vacation property. Oh my gosh. Last week we talked about Michael Landlauer officially buying the Sends.

We had a great talk with Greg Cronin, new Ducks coach, who we checked in with, he was in New York at that point, but had driven, was driving back to Boston from Denver, his previous job. And Greg was, just a blast.

He was insightful and really gracious with his time because that dude has a lot on his plate, right? He's meeting up with guys you know, across the country where he to Troy Terry and a bunch of bunch other dudes. And I think we caught him when he was staying overnight

with one of his friends in New York. So great stuff from Greg. Really interesting. If you haven't listened, it's worth your time. But these comments are from that episode. Michael Kay wants to know if we're going to get Max's in here as the permanent co-host. Not if I have anything to say about it.

Yeah. If I have a say in it, Max better start warming up his vocals. He's going to replace me. Jason K. This question is for Sean. I'm traveling out to Pittsburgh for my beloved pirates. Strike one, Jason. I'm sorry to hear that they're your beloved pirates.

My wife, a pit grad, suggested we need to go to the O and was distraught to find out a close during COVID. Do you have a suggestion to visit that is of the same ilk? I like when the comments or when the segment just kind of devolves into me talking about Pittsburgh stuff. Always happy to do it. The O is a hot dog. shop on the University of Pittsburgh campus, Craig.

Closed during COVID been replaced by a very average taco place that is not worth your time. I always just... Can you be scrolling to the next question right now? I always just say if you're in Pittsburgh, just go to fatheads. Great sandwiches on the south side. If you go there during the day, you can bum around and it's a cool neighborhood. If you're looking for hot dogs specifically, go to D's in Region Square. You're welcome, Jason. Moving on. Do you have... Can I take one? I've got what? I had plenty of time.

As you were talking about hot dogs in Pittsburgh. God. What a... You think people want to listen to that? Yes. I do. Nobody's going, oh, thanks.

I'm going to go visit that hot dog stand and whatever. It's not a stand. It's a restaurant. It's got good beer. You probably don't even drink. Fancy boy. Too good for beer over there. I like a nice age red wine.

Joe T. Joe T writes, Can't believe Greg Cronin badmouthed Denver International Airport. It's so easy to fly in and out of, and especially since he would take the toll road into DIA from Northern Colorado. We even have a train. Hashtake Tuesday boys. I've got a few thoughts on this, Joe, T. Thanks for bringing this up.

I'm glad. One. You can sit here and bullshit about airport minutia. And I'm not a lot of talk about restaurants in the city that I live. You want to get me going? Let's talk to airport to somebody who's spent 80% of his life in an airport. a lot of people don't know this. The Denver airport may be haunted.

So there's that. There's all sorts of stuff going on. There's like, there's like, um, occult stuff happening in there and like, uh, there's all sorts of weird shit happening. Statue with red eyes where if you catch it in the right angle, like smoke's coming out of his ears or something. There's some, the horse, it's really weird. What's the, I'm freemason stuff.

I kept almost saying stonecutter stuff, which is the fake freemasons from the same same. And I couldn't pull the actual, the actual organization. So there's that. So Joe, yeah, I can't believe you didn't bring up that part of it. I like the Denver airport. But the second thing, one of my favorite memories, traveling with my wife, we flew, we were just kids, early part of our marriage. We were flying to Denver and then driving to Vegas.

We ran into a car. We're going to just do a little bit of a western U.S. Great drive, beautiful drive. But we get, you know, I'm going to. like pumping up the Rockies. Here we go. We're all excited. We get to the airport. We get in the rental car and it's prairies. Denver, yeah. It's nothing. Yeah. Like when you get the airport, you're in the middle of like Kansas. And so my wife appropriately said that John Denver was full of shit. I was going to say, have you, had you guys not seen dumb and dumber at this point? All right.

It's the entire joke. No, it was, it was right on cue. I was very proud of it. Go to place for a layover in the Denver airport. There's like a new Belgium like brew pub with. food and stuff that I feel like I've been to a half dozen times over the course of my life. That place is way, the airport's way too busy. It's way too big. But if you can squeeze out a spot in there, it's in like a high, it's in like a high traffic area. You're probably going to be close to your connection gate. They have good beer.

They have good food. I feel like I spent a significant amount of time there over the last, over the last probably 10 years. New Belgium brew pub. Okay. I mean, we can if you, I mean, I can also take this question from Shanna about, Marriott points and airlines if you want to stay on topic, but I can't imagine. It's actually a really good question because it's a different angle into it.

Who do you think has more Marriott Hotel and Airline points? Hockey B-Writer, NHL scout, NHL referee, or other officials. And the follow-up is, I imagine Rousseau is Diamond Platin elite for Marriott points, which he is. That's correct. is probably triple diamond for airlines, which he's, I'm sure he's whatever Delta, I'm sure he's a Delta guy. Yes. Yes, he is.

Sean. I saw, I saw, I saw, I, Rousseau has a backpack that is embroidered with his name. It looks like something that was like handmade by somebody at, at Marriott. Okay. And I, I know that Diamond Platinum Elite is the highest. designation that a person could have. But the first time I saw it, I swear to God, it was like, it was like they gave him like mega diamond platinum elite. And the prize was like, here's a backpack that we made for you. Like in the like it was like they ran like he has a status

that is so high that they just ran out of designations and like ran out of prizes. It looked like something that was like made for him specifically because he's the only person on the planet that actually has it. Yeah. So I would say Mike Russo probably is the, like in a category by himself because it is absolutely like an up in the air situation it's like george cluny in in up in the air where he's just where they're they're going to let him fly the plane if if he wants yeah um but i would say the next because mike russo has existed during this time where he's been a beatwriter traveling to every single game since since he started and he started really young.

Like, Rousseau has been at it since he was like, he went from like delivering papers to writing for the paper. Like, we talked about it. And so he quit school to be a beat writer. Like, he was like the panthery writer when he was still college. And now he's old like us. And so he's got this,

and he's never missed it, like he's obsessive about it. So I, like, I don't know who else would have that. But then I think the next one up would be official. Like, I think refs, I think, because they're on the road constantly. There's no home games. Like, at least Russo has half of the stretch of the season where he's at home.

So I think Wes McCauley or somebody in that world can probably go toe to toe with Russo with some sort of. Scouts would have the edge in rental car points in like rental car status, I feel like. You get points for mileage of the car. You could just, you get, for the Hertz quadruple, quadruple titanium, yes. I wish I had my wallet. I just texted Cassie to bring my wall, but I don't think she's going to get it in time while we're talking. I have from Marriott, because I'm Lifetime Platinum titanium.

It's a thick metal card that you drop on the counter, and it makes a loud noise. Whenever I check in, I'm like, oh, here's my Marriott. Oh, did I drop that? And it's like clank and it chips the thing. It's so heavy. It's literally, I think it's made out of titanium. It's truly like, like we checked in the same hotel a couple months ago. And I was like, oh, thanks, gold.

Like, it's like you're in year two of gold status. Thanks for, thanks for, you know, we appreciate your business. And Craig comes in and it's like things that it's the width, it's the width of a puck. The titanium card? I can find it if I have it. I don't know if I still carried around. Oh, here it is. Sorry.

This is a really, I'm a riveting shit. Okay. Okay. You can't see this anybody, but. Let me see if you can hear it. Did you hear that? All right. Tilt your mic down.

Yeah. Oh my gosh. It's so loud here. It's terrible. That's titanium. Good for you. Good for you, man. No, I'm not proud of it because you know what?

Then they tell you how long you spent in a marriott, like as a father of children, of actual kids. Yeah, I don't have a dad around. Guess what? I don't have those either. Yeah. Stop talking. It's not a good feeling. It's not a good feeling when they go, you've spent, they break it down by year.

They're like, you spent seven years in a Marriott. And I'm like, I'm like, you didn't have to say that. How much is it actually? No, it's like they can do it by years. I know, but like it can't be seven years though. Come on. I'll look it up for the last show that we ever do together.

It's in just two weeks. Jeff, edit all of this out. It sucks. Did you have another one or was that it? I truly forgot what we were talking about. Yeah. Yeah, there's a Henrik Lundquist Hall of Fame. You guys said something on that.

He's, I mean, a lock. It's no fun when there's no debate. We'll finish on that, actually. We did do our Mock Hall of Fame exercise this year. That was published this morning. The inductees is not much of a spoiler. It was Lundquist. It was Alexander McGilney.

it was Caroline Willett It was Jennifer Botryl Those were the those are the four inductees From our little you know Straw Poll mock mock ceremony this year I don't think anybody in there is a surprise I think it's a joke that Jennifer that we're still talking about Jennifer Botterall not actually being inducted

Even though the women's hall has They have two spaces to induct women and they Continue to fail to use them with this huge backlog that's coming as all these great players are coming down the pipeline, they somehow continue. That's insane. It's a joke. It really is.

It's like, it, it should be ashamed of themselves for, for screwing up on, on that level that level that they have over the last years. Because, again, the limit is stupid to begin with. It's stupid to say, like, you can only vote for four men or two women a year. That is problem one. If you're out, if, if you deserve to be in, you should get in. because the end result is people end up having to make weird choices when you're like, all right, we need to organize this. So one of the, so four of the six deserving people get in this year and we don't split the baby and screw things up.

That's already a problem. The women's thing is a gigantic issue because nobody can seem to, has been able to seem to agree who gets in over the last however many years. So it ends up being just one, one a year. And that is going to be an enormous problem coming down the pike as more and more accomplished. women, you know, come up, come up for an endeavor. We're getting there. So there needs to be two every year for the foreseeable future or else there's going to be a real, real problem on their hands, and they, and they biffed it last year already. So we'll see if they, if they do the right thing, because the last couple years have been a joke. I wish there was more transparency in that

process. It's like cloak and dagger stuff. Also, split the baby is a same thing. Stone cutters. Split the baby. It's biblical. Oh, is it? Kings Solomon. Passage is that from? Oh, King Solomon's split. The baby wasn't split.

Oh. The baby's true mother gave it away, so it wouldn't be cut in half. Was it Moses? I think we've exhausted my biblical. I'll see how far I could go with that. 12 years of Catholic school, baby. I don't know. Shit.

But good sayings. Let's, I think that's it. Sean, listen, can I just tell you what a pleasure it's been to do the show with you? I'm going to take... I'm going to kill you. I just want to take a few minutes as we wrap up here and say, you know, I know Max is good, but it's been my privilege and honor. Six days until we see each other in person.

I'm going to murder you. To do this podcast with you. We have a lot of fun for years. Shut up. You put like a little highlight reel on some meat slow music there. That would be great. I'm going to hang up on you. And, yep.

I want to thank Patrick O'Sullivan for joining the podcast. Oh, one more plug. Get your American Awards nominations in. And if you don't know what you mean by that. If you're new to the show, it's like, you know, Best American Performance in a Playoff Series. Best American on the Dallas Stars. Just listen to the, you can just listen to the episode from last year,

which like realistically, where are you going to go and take all those categories again? And give people credit. Yep. You know, Best American candidate to replace me on that. the podcast. Goodbye. Goodbye. Also,

what else? Patrick O'Solvent. Producer Jeff. Thanks for lining that up. It was a great idea. Great, great segment. Definitely subscribe to us

on YouTube at YouTube.com forward slash at sign. Jeff of the Cocky show. Next week, Max Baltman and Corey Promon, they're going to be in the slot in Nashville.

Talking draft. It's draft week. One of the most fun stretches in the calendar. I am, I mean, not just because it's in Nashville next week. I'm looking forward to next week a lot. I'm not. You're not? Is your liver?

I don't want to see. You're goofy ass. Thanks for listening, everybody. And happy new.