The Athletic Hockey Show - Gavin McKenna drops to No. 4 in NHL Draft rankings shakeup

Episode Date: December 12, 2025

There is a new No. 1 in Corey’s latest NHL Draft rankings with Tynan Lawrence vaulting to the top spot and Gavin McKenna falling three spots to No. 4. Plus, thoughts on World Junior camp rosters and listener questions in the mailbag, including what the Red Wings would have to send to the Canucks in a hypothetical Quinn Hughes trade, to close things out. Hosts: Max Bultman, Corey Pronman, and Scott WheelerWith: FloHockey’s Chris PetersExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Chris FlanneryGot a question? Ask it here: t.co/fYieuQEg14Watch full episodes on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowJoin our Discord Server: https://discord.gg/VTm9VjkFSubscribe to The Athletic: https://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. Hey, everybody, Max Boltman here alongside the athletic Scott Wheeler and Corey Promin, as well as Flow Hockey's Chris Peters for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. Fun show on tap today. Corey's got a new draft list out that we're going to talk about, but I want to start guys with the World Junior Camp Rosters and specifically with Team Canada. I think that's the interesting one here. No huge surprises on USA. But for Canada, it gets a little bit interesting. And that starts, Corey, I think, with some of the players who were not there.

Justin Carbono having an outstanding year in the QMJHL, not there. Merrick Vaneker, a guy who I think we thought fit that kind of depth veteran role that Canada tends to look to or older player role that Canada tends to look to, not there. Which are those omissions are you more surprised by? If I had to pick one, it'd be Carbado, but I wouldn't say it was shocking either. I mean, it's still Team Canada. we knew that four group in particular was going to be extremely competitive. If you're taking Carbino, you're leaving behind like a top five pick like a Caleb Dinoje or Brady Martin or a high pick like Jake, like Jake O'Brien, who's been a top player in the OHL.

I think those are some of the bubble guys they were debating between. So it's not shocking to be. The Carbino is having a fantastic year, you know, goal per game pace, but it is the queue. You know, there is a little bit of an adjustment there for exactly how impressive that is. And I think there are some concerns on this player in terms of whether he's, if you look at this player pool that they had to choose from, is he going to be a legit power play guy among these options? He's not really a penalty killer.

So I think that's where the debates came in. You know, when we did our mock team candidate exercise, I think we leaned to putting him in. But I think I was on the fence about that, to be perfectly honest. So maybe ask Chris or Scott what they thought, because I actually think it's, I probably would have left him off if I'm being perfectly honest. Yeah, Scott, why don't you weigh out on this? I wasn't terribly surprised. I exchanged text with a couple of QMJL coaches and GMs that night.

And the feedback I got back from them was that they weren't surprised either. I had one of them say that he actually didn't think it was probably very close. And Carbonos always been a player who's come with mixed reviews about consistency, habits off of the puck, that side of it. Like, it's been a talking point about him. I don't think he's everybody's sort of cup of tea. you will. So I wasn't terribly surprised. The one thing with Carbono that I'd couch that with, though, is that I think there is a little bit of a risk now that they don't have a ton of like

true, true. All of these players play power play for their own team, but they don't have a ton of sort of true true power play scores on this team. I think you expect that Porter Martone and T. Jiginla kind of play that role on the top unit, but I do wonder a little bit what the second power play unit for Team Canada is going to look like. maybe they just run that first unit. Like maybe it's McKenna and Ghinla and Martone and those are your, and Mesa and those are your four forwards on PP1 and they play almost the full two minutes kind of thing.

I think there's with Perak at the point, for example, I think that's a real possibility. But I did start to wonder, okay, like who, who's PP2 for this team? I think that would have been a role that he would have fit nicely. And if suddenly they run into an injury or two to some of those top guys, I do wonder about just the scoring depth. But same token, like if he wasn't going to be a top six winger for them, that's the natural role you'd expect him to play. So not terribly surprised that they didn't bring him as a bottom six guy either. Only in Canada.

Can you look at a team that has Michael Misa, Porter Martone, Gavin McKenna and say there's not enough power play talent on this team, Scott. Any other team in this tournament would be doing jumping jacks with that group. You go about like Hage and Green Tree. Like, there's still plenty of skill among their secondary guys. Yeah, I do wonder though, like there's, you've got Sam O'Reilly and you go down the list, Jet Wuchenko, Cole Bowdwayne, like there is a glut of guys that I think will penalty kill for this team and will be penalty killing options for this team. Reshne, Carter Bear, like, there's a lot of those guys. And not quite as many as last year. I think last year they realized that there were far too many of those types.

But none of the, like, Green Tree is a really, really good player. He doesn't shoot it like Carbono does. Like, he's not that one-shot score that I think Carbino could have maybe represented a little bit in this group. But, again, not surprised. I actually thought Carter Bear making it over Merrick Vaneker was a bit more surprising to me. They're both left-shot wingers. I think they're both probably imagined for the same role, like bottom six guy, four-checking, power-type game, go to the net, play with pace. They're both excellent skaters.

And Bear got off to a bit of a slow start. I know he's been much better forever it recently, but I did wonder if Bear was going to be on this team, and he's not really a player we talked about as someone who was going to be on this team. I did think that Verit Vaneker, with the way that he scored and the role that he could play, that he might have been a better fit for that role specifically, which made me wonder whether maybe the Hunter brothers aren't having seen him a lot in the O HL, maybe they're not quite as high on him. I think they've got three defensemen, though, who are legit shot threats. I think you have Zane Parick and Kaysson.

and I think are high-end goal-scoring threats. And I don't know if Verhoff's... Yeah, I don't know if Verhoff's actually good to be in the starting seven. I think that's something to remain to be seen depending on his camp. But if he makes the team, he would fit that category as well. Well, let's stick on the Young Deid in there, because I do think we had Verhof on our depth chart. We did not have Carson Carls, Corey.

And he's a guy who now moves into this picture. And I wonder how you feel like he got himself into this grouping. Not only is he in the grouping. I think he actually has a better chance to be in the starting seven than Verhof, just because of a couple of variables. One, just how hard he plays, the hand in this. He's a left shot versus the right shots where they have Perrick and Brunachy and Danford. They're kind of solidified.

It seems like in that lineup. But Carls was been excellent. I mean, he was really good at the World U18s last April. He's been excellent in the Western League, one of the top defense been the Western League this year. I thought he was the best player for Team CHL at the CHLNTDP series, right up there with Caleb Malhotra. So now you've got this defense with size and mobility and grit and hockey sense.

And it looks like a very exciting player. And I think once you get past Verhoff, I think there's this group of defensemen. We'll get to that in the draft segment. But he's right in the conversation to be the second defenseman picked in this draft. And that could go very early in the draft class. And like I said, I think he's, from everything I've been told, I think he has the inside track to be in the starting seven for Team Canada right now. The left side in general for Canada is interesting.

here because you know and you also have jackson smith in this conversation i think we're still waiting to hear on sam dickinson that that alters the picture for all of this chris but when you look at the left side for canada carls smith like which of these guys do you feel like it sounds like cori's locked in on carls having a better shot over smith here to make this team can they both make it is it depend on dickinson how do you handicap the left side yeah i agree with that i i think i think carles is the inside track guy on making that roster over Jackson Smith. You know, I, that was, Smith was probably one of the bigger surprises to me, even though, you know, the numbers have been solid at Penn State.

You know, I just think in terms of readiness for the world juniors, I think there's, you know, there's definitely some questions I have there. But for me, Carl, like to Corey's point, Carl's had, you know, some of the best showings here at the latter stages. And we talked about it even going back to last summer after the World Junior Summer Showcase that if you don't have Dickinson and you don't have Schaefer and you don't have, you know, like all of a sudden you're starting to really start ticking down. And, you know, is, is Kishon Acheson or Cameron Reed a good top pairing guy on your left side? You know, I don't know where Carl's will ultimately fit in, but I think he's going to be in the line up. I think he's going to play.

And so, you know, I think everything about his game that I've seen so far is that he's ready for this. But I also think that he wouldn't be here if they didn't have the depth issues that they do on the left side. And I mean, even, you know, Ethan McKenzie for that matter. Yeah, another one. A player that is undrafted, you know, and committed to go to North Dakota, which could potentially give North Dakota as many as, you know, three connected players on Team Canada is really intriguing. So, you know, I think that they're trying to find ways to plug the holes that they have. Carl's maturity to me is a separating factor for him. And, you know, it'll be interesting to see.

I don't think it's a decision between Carl's and Verhoff or I think you can still bring both of them if you want to. I don't know if Canada will. But I do think that Carl's has the inside track on being, you know, maybe the third pairing guy on the left side. I think they love McKinsey too. Like, my understanding is I think he's got a better than 50% chance of being in the starting seven on boxing day. His skating is excellent. He's super competitive. He has the traits you want to fill one of those bottom pair PK roles for this team.

I think entering camp, if they don't get Dickinson, and I think they may get Dickinson. We're recording this on Thursday afternoon, and Sam is playing with San Jose in Toronto tonight. So I think there's a good chance that you hear after tonight's game. Like it would make a lot of logistical sense to send him from Toronto to Niagara Falls. I think if we're going to hear on Dickinson in the next couple of days, it will be tonight or tomorrow morning as this podcast releases. But if you're handicapping the nine, I think if we're handicapping the nine that are there right now, that Jackson Smith probably starts camp as the ninth guy. And I would guess Fairhoff is the second cut if it comes down to it. And then at forward, I mean, it sounds like Bear is kind of the bubble guy here.

Is there any other forwards on the bubble that you guys are looking at, Scott? I still, we talked about it on the previous show, and I've talked with Corey about it a little offline. But I think Jake O'Brien is a, despite his success in the OHL this year, is a bubble guy. I don't think they viewed him as in the mix coming out of the World Junior Summer Showcase. He's obviously now played his way into the mix here. But if they feel like they're similar to Carbono, if they feel like they're, top six power play roles are accounted for, he's a trickier guy to suddenly have to find a role for. Like, he just doesn't fit as well as a Brady Martin or a Colbo Duang or a Jet Lucchenco or some of those

sort of, even a Carter Bear, some of those sort of down lineup guys that you could just plug and play in the sort of typical hierarchy for a hockey Canada team. Now, maybe they go about it a little bit differently. Maybe they want a little bit of a little bit more skill in their bottom six this year. And he fits there. But he is a guy that I've wondered about as a potential cut at forward. I think Bear and Coots for me would be the bubble guys. I think you just, actually with someone like Coots, it's like that at some point you go through the roster, it's both Dwan and Lucchenco and all the, Scott mentioned a couple of the other guys there like you know, O'Reilly and Brady Martin. And at some point, you could only bring so, so many guys,

especially you have a 5-11 variety in Coots who are basically going to be penalty killers on this team. He probably feels more like a next year candidate, but we'll see how his camp goes. Reshny as good as he was at U-18s and as excellent as he was at the World Junior Summer Showcase where I thought him and Michael Hage were kind of the standouts at the summer showcase up front for Canada. I don't think Reshny based off his play with North Dakota to start the year

is necessarily a lock either. He'd be a similar player profile to Coots, right? Like it's we'll see which one of these guys they decide to keep. Goldie-wise, how do you think Canada proceeds here, Corey? Do you expect them to take three? Can we be looking at just two here?

They're going to bring two. And I would guess it's Ivankovic and George. I think Ravensvergen is the best pro prospect of the three, but this is a world junior tournament. And in terms of who I'd won in a junior game tomorrow, I think it's clearly those two right now. Yeah. All right. Let's go over to USA now.

And Chris, I don't think there was any huge surprises on this roster. And that's reflected. When we did our depth chart debate, that was a much shorter segment. I think we probably went shorter on USA's whole roster than we did Canada's forwards alone. So not a huge pool of debate here, but a couple of things I thought were interesting. Will Zellers the late ad? Anything else stand out to you? I mean, I think the Zellers ad is certainly the, you know, one of the more interesting things here.

He was, to me, of the players they left off, was the biggest surprise that, you know, I know people might have looked at Cullen Potter, may have looked at J.P. Hurlbert, even though we did say there was, you know, a 0% chance they would consider going that route. But adding Zellers, like, of course Zellers went off the weekend after the team was announced. You know, it's like, oh, yeah, maybe we should have that guy. There's going to be some really interesting things about this D. I think there's going to be some real competition among the defensemen. I think it's much stronger among the defensemen competition-wise. You know, I think guys like Chase Reed have now put themselves firmly into the mix of being on the team. after not being on the U18 team last year and then not going to the summer showcase,

you know, it creates battles. I think guys like, you know, Blake Fiddler are going to have to really battle for a spot to get in there, you know, guys that they also had, Asher Barnett and, you know, and Dakota, Rayo Mullen and others, you know, like they're going to have some decisions. I think Rio Mullen's probably going to be in there, no problem. But I think the addition of Reed really improves the look of potential power play units for them among the defensemen. I think Cole Hudson is a no doubter. And then, you know, I would probably look at Reed as a potential number two power play guy.

That was something that stood out in the World Junior Summer Showcase that they didn't really have. Yeah. You know, Luke Osborne was out there. You know, guys, Rayle Mullen was out there. And they're good, but like, they don't have the skill level of a Chase Reed. And so I think that that's going to be a huge book. moon for this U.S. team. The other thing that I would say,

we were kind of down on them when we were talking about, down on the roster, and certainly the goal tending is a concern. You know, I think that the center depth is a concern, but I also think that the way that this is structured, now that you see it on paper,

enough guys with World Junior experience, a decent decor. It's not amazing. Certainly not as good as last year's team. But I do think that they have reason to feel like they can compete. and whether that means they're competing for gold, I don't know. But I think that this is a team that has,

they're going to be able to put a pretty credible team on the ice. They just need one of those goalies. And I think it'll be Nick Kempf to really step up and play a really strong role. At least manage games for them if we want to steal a football term. You know, don't let in the big goal. Don't, you know, don't make the big mistake. They're going to have a chance. Higgins has been dealing recently, too.

like James has played his best hockey of the season the last few weekends. Yeah, great point. I think a number of guys have elevated since we've had some of these discussions. Chase Reed as well. I mean, he goes off and scores a hat trick right after he gets named to the team. So, you know, like I think that guys continue to elevate. And that's the thing about this. You're trying to find those guys that are pushing.

I think Higgins, you know, this is going to be his team. He's got to find a way to make an impact. Are we sure, though? like, I think if the college season ended right now, wouldn't Max Plont be the Hobie Baker winner right now? You would be. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I feel like I'm really curious to see the impact he has on this team and and this tournament. Like, why is it Hagen's team? It could very easily be Plont's team based on the way their seasons have gone so far. True, true. I mean, you know, when you have the number one center from last year's team back, I think that's kind of. Who hasn't played center all year?

That's very, very true. Yeah, that's great. That's great that both of USA's best centers are not centers on their teams right now. So, um, yeah. On Max Plunt, I actually heard that Plunt may end up playing center for this group. That that would, they're considering trying him there. I wouldn't, I would, that would make sense. I mean, he is, honestly, the thing about Max is he is such a smart player. And I, I think that that is, that is a big reason why he's having success in college.

He's crafty. He's sneaky. Uh, he's got great vision. Um, and he's got great work, I think. So I think that you could put him down the middle and that very well, could be the slot for him and make him a facilitator from the middle. I think he can drive play from there. All right.

Well, we're obviously going to talk a lot more about the outlook for both of those teams coming up on the World Junior preview episode. But for now, let's take a quick break. We're going to come back and we're going to talk about Corey's latest draft rankings. All right, we're back. And Corey, you had a new draft list come out this week and some pretty interesting movement on it. Starting with, I don't think anyone who's listened to our show is going to be surprised by this. But Gavin McKenna slips from number one. What they may be surprised by is that he slipped to number four.

Can you kind of talk us through how you wrestled with where to stick McKenna here? Obviously, the trend this year has been that he might drop, but at four. I think right now for me and really talking to the league, it's the same thing, that there's a group of four players right now at the top of the draft, McKenna being one, Iavar Stenberg at Furlunda being the other, the winger at Furlunda. You have Nodak defenseman Keaton-Veyrhoff and Muskeekin Center, Ty and Lawrence.

I think that's the clear top group in the draft right now. You could talk to some people in the league. they might have minority opinions here or there, but I think that's where the consensus is right now. And that's how I view it too. So you start going through those four players, and you look at what Stenberg's doing against men this year, and that's already a really impressive trait there.

And seeing how his offense transfers up levels. So that would be a tiebreaker for me between him and McKenna, because I think the skill is close. And then with Verhofen and Lawrence, it's just the premium position guys, and the guys, I think, can play both ways. And I think the value to their team will be great, at the NHL level.

I'm sure some people, the most common criticism I've gotten of this, just reading my Twitter mentions the comments in the article, is how can you leapfrog Lawrence based on seven games or eight games of USHL play he's had. And I don't expect people to be

detailed enough to know where all my previous lists were, but as you guys know, Lawrence was two, the last time I put a list out. So really, the only thing that really changed, really, is that he came back.

It looked exactly like I thought he was going to. And McKenna had a tough final month of college hockey and that precipitated the change is there. And we'll see how the rest of Lawrence's year goes, Verhoz, McKenna, Stenberg, McKenna Stenberg. We'll have extremely important world junior tournaments coming up here. We'll see how they perform there. But that's kind of where I stand on that right now.

And maybe we get some new information. Maybe it moves those guys up or down. But I think right now there's this group of four players. And I think you could put them really in any order in it, it would be reasonable. Well, it's funny, like, you could push back and you could say, hey, seven games at number one. Like, NHL teams are going to work. We just saw a guy who played less than half a season go number one. And he's outshining what even the most optimistic of projections could have been.

I'm not saying Tyne and Lawrence is going to have a Matthew Schaefer like a cent. But it's really about what you do when you play. And Corey, for Lawrence, that has been what? Yeah, he's been outstanding. And you can't just erase the body of work either. People are going to use the body of work argument from McKenna. Well, Lawrence didn't last. year in the USHL was unbelievable.

Like he was the best player in the playoffs there. And he was Canada's best player, I thought, the Holinka Gretzky in the summer too. And I think people will say, well, yeah, but you will compare the office to him in Stenberg or him and McKenna is not the same thing. Yeah, I know it's not the same thing. I'm not saying that he had the same level of skill as those guys.

But he's a way better skater. He's notably bigger. He's extremely competitive. Like to me, the comparison is more like, how would he compare someone like, say, Michael Mesa at the same age? And I think it would be really similar, quite frankly. I think there'd be some mild difference in terms of how they play. But I think they're the same level of prospect.

And if you look at how they trended historically, there would be a lot of overlap there. Yeah. One of the things I find interesting about this list is just, you know, the D have really risen up here. And you have Verhoff at number two. We talked about Carls. He's at number six on your list. Chase read at number seven. A guy we have hardly talked about it all on this podcast is the Latvian.

Albert Smith, he's at five. Daxon, Rudolph, 8, Zavia Vilnav, 12. You got another cluster at the late teens, early 20. Scott, I know is really big on Ryan Lynn. I see that, Corey, and I wonder, like, is the defense core, is the blue line becoming the identity of this draft? Yes, absolutely. And then you have some other players there we didn't mention.

You could mention Uhoopip-Reyn and who I think will be on Phidlin's World Junior team. You have Adam Goliier, who will be on Slovakia's World Junior team, playing a problem in a role. The Swedes? Yeah, you got, I think William Hawkinson will be on Sweden's World Junior team. Walter Gustafin's been hurt,

but he's a really promising prospect. There's a lot of really exciting defensemen in this year's draft. Luke Scherer with the program impressed a lot of scouts in that the games against the team CHL. I think he'll be like a lady. He could be a late first rounder. A lot of big mobile defensemen in this year's draft.

A lot of defensemen with significant offense. You think could be a power play guy in the NHL. So yeah, I think, you know, there's some centers who've emerged this year. In terms of the premium positions, this is definitely more of a defense tilt. to draft right now. You, I know, are a huge villain of guy, so I think the thing that surprised me most is how many

did you had ahead of him? What changed there? Or is it other guys moving up or softening? Yeah, I think more just other guys moving up, just how good Rudolph and Reid have been and Carl's. And I think, as much as I love Villanove, I think, and as good as I thought he was against the NTP the other week. And as good as he's been in the queue.

I don't think he's been quite as dominant in the queue as I thought he was going to be, quite frankly. and I think there are some mild concerns there still on his defense. I thought those games against the program where it's about the hardest games I've seen him play. Like I think in the queue, his compete level and his physicality

have been significant concerns for me, his defending as well. Like, so I have some, like I've thought of Goss to spare as a comp for him and then you start having debates about, well, how good is Gossus bear? Yeah. Like, you know, you know,

I, you know, it's going to be an interesting conversation with him. Like, when I saw, him last year, I thought like he was more of like the premium small defensemen. And then there's been times I've watched him this year. I'm not as sure. So I've got to kind of figure that out right now with him where I fall. But I think when you're unsure, you'd just rather take the six two guys who can skate and have offense, which are, you know, Carl, Smith's, Rudolph, Reed. Like those guys are sure thing top four defensemen. This becomes a huge world junior subplot, Scott. Like, especially if you can get Carl's onto Canada, if you can get

Chase Reed onto USA. I assume Smith is going to be there for Latvia. like this becomes a great subplot for this world junior tournament. Yeah, I mean, you're going to have Adam Navatni. He played, he's been playing on and off of the first line for the checks over the last calendar year in terms of their their U-20 tournaments that they've played in and events that they've played in. So no shortage of talent. You're going to have, obviously, Vigo Bjork and Yvar Stenberg as a as very prominent parts, including Bjork. Like, I think Bjork's probably a second or third line center for this team. And those are forwards, obviously, those two guys, Novotny and Bjork.

Yeah. Yeah, but it's... Savanto will be on Finland. Yep. Mm-hmm. There's no shortage this year in terms of that talent. And we didn't get that last year. Like, everybody was looking forward last year to getting Porter Martone and Matthew Schaefer and James Hagen's in a game together. And we didn't get it because of Schaefer's injury at last year's tournament.

This year, you're going to have some measuring stick games. I think if Sweden and Canada play, it will be, despite the fact that the Americans have won the last two tournaments, I think if Sweden and Canada play maybe selfishly from our side of it here, but I think that's the most compelling game of the tournament because you get Stenberg and McKenna on the ice together and you get them head to head. So it's going to be a, the draft eligible is going to be a significant storyline in this year's event. Chris mentioned earlier that, yeah, you know, the political situation with Herbert meant he was, he was probably not going to end up on Team USA ever.

But, Corey, he's another guy that shoots up your list here. He's in the top 10 now. you know, for you, you do tend to be a little more cautious to elevate kind of the small offensive winger into quite this territory. So you must have really seen something here to feel good about Hurlberg. A couple of things. One is he has grown, like he has grown since his program days. He's about an inch and a half taller from where he was the program a year ago. Two, he's competing more consistently. That was a big concern for me last year was, does this guy have the inside game? Does he, does he play hard enough on a consistent basis?

and that's been the case in the Western League this year. And he's not really a heart to play against guy. He's not super fast. So there are some projection and translation concerns here. But I don't think there are issues. I don't think there are, I would call, that was parts of his games flaws. And then when you look at his skill and his hockey sense,

they're both extremely impressive traits. You know, definitely one of the more creative players in this year's draft. And I mean, he's just been tearing up the Western League. I think as we record us, he leads the Western League in scoring by like, nearly 10 points. Yeah.

You know, he's just been the best player in that league this season. And he's going to need to keep it up. Given those translation concerns, he's going to need to show that he's still this player. But from what I've seen, there's a legit brain there, legit stick to potentially play in a top six

and in a power play in the NHL. And this looks like one of the guys who may not have the traditional athletic traits you want, but he has all the skill in the world. Whenever I've watched Camloops, I've been very impressed by his work ethic this year. Like, he's in the mix of everything that's happening on the ice when he's out there. So credit to him because it's, it's been noticeable. I think what surprised me most is that you had him ahead of Belches because that's a guy

who we were talking about in the top five, I think as recently as the last list. And he's the opposite. He's the elite athlete. He's extremely competitive, highly physical and has shown more offense, at least he had early in the year. So maybe it's maybe it's on that front. but where did Hurlbert overtake Belchus for you? Well, one, they just played on the same team. And I thought Hurlberg, especially in the first game against the program,

he was way better. And just in general, I think we can look at Belchess right now. I think there's a lot of scouts are going to ask, like, okay, is this, wondering at the beginning of the K, we got Slavkovsky here, and now it's like, oh, maybe we have Nick Ritchie or Lawson Krause on our hands right now instead. And we'll see how the rest of his year goes. I guess that dog disagrees with me. But, you know, I don't know how high in his sense is or his stick or his competitiveness.

I think, you know, his compete is good. He's physical. I don't think he's like a Landerskalk compete guy. I don't think, you know, he has like that Krause in him where he's going to run guys over. So I think you're kind of wondering, like, if the offense is an elite here, are you really just getting like a second or a third liner at the end of the day? Maybe more of a second liner for me. But that's kind of where I fall right now. All right.

All right. Well, let's take a quick break right there. We're going to come back. We've got a really good mailbag on top. All right, we are back, and the college football playoff bracket is set after a roller coaster season. Final 12 are going to thrash it out to make January's national championship game. And The Audible, the Athletics Dedicated College Football Podcast, led by Bruce Feldman, Stuart Mandel, and Ralph Russo. It's going to cover every blade of grass on the field.

We got to go all the way, Scott. Well, the next game of college football that I watch in full will be the first game of college football that I watch in full. So I might not be the guy to answer this question. All right. James Madison vote. They count those. So let's get to the mailbag here. Should be a good one on tap. Chris, Nabil Raymond wants to know if Trevor Zegris continues his point per game pace, even as a winger, how does that change the outlook of the Flyers current rebuild since he's still only 24? I mean, it certainly helps. I don't know that it necessarily, you know, dramatically changes the trajectory,

but it definitely helps. And I mean, having Zegers playing as much as he's playing right now, as well as he's playing right now. You know, he's, he's ticking towards his numbers from last season already, which is great because last season wasn't good. You know, it's interesting. I wonder what would have happened and how he would have looked within this, this kind of new look ducks lineup as well. Yeah.

But I think that, you know, being where he is in Philadelphia, having a new lease on life, having an opportunity to be relied upon and say, hey, like, we made a big trade for you. We need you to make it work. You know, we need you to bring it. And I think that he's doing that. I think that we're seeing, you know, him enjoying hockey again. I think that's one of the things that, as I watch the Flyers, is like, this is a guy that looks like he's having fun again.

Maybe it's not with the highlight real plays all the time in terms of like he's not scoring Michigan goals every day. But, you know, he is playing more like the Trevor Zegris we saw at the beginning of his career where it, was like fun was part of the equation. And so I think that that's really important. And the fact that he's doing it in Philadelphia, where they have some skill coming up, like Mitch Cove's playing better, other guys are playing better.

That is a really good thing. So do I think he's like a cornerstone piece or anything of where they're at right now? I don't necessarily think so, but he's going to be a very important foundation. Like he'll be an important piece as far as, having that scoring pop that you need for any team. And the fact that you get it from a more veteran player is pretty important.

But I think it's, you know, this is more. The rebuild to me is more about what's Martone going to do. What's Mitchkov going to do? Those are the kind of things I think matter more. And they still need way more premium position guys too. 100%. Yeah, there's a long way to go. Yeah.

Even the, we talk about the centers, even their defense right now. Like they have a lot of work to do there to build a real team. I kind of think about Zegris. If they get to that real team, I kind of think you have to think about Zegris now is, like, can he be that Kuznetsov, that Phil Kessel, like that skill guy on a team that has the other pieces around him. The challenge is that maybe Michikov is also that guy. And you look at the Stanley Cup champion teams and there haven't really been to Phil Kessels or two Kuznetsov's. Like, it's kind of been one of that type. So I do wonder about the.

makeup. Now, if Porter Martone's a driver and, and they find those deep pieces that Corey's talking about and they find the center, then it's a different conversation maybe. But there is a little bit of rhyme or reason, I think, to make that connection. It's a pretty fun collection of wingers. I will say that. That is between Mitchkoff, Zegras, Martone. That's about his skilled a set of wingers as you're going to find. Corey, Alex Ortiz wants to know if McKenna had stayed in junior this year, instead of going to college and was killing it just like last season or even maybe a step up, would you still have? dropped him from first, or is it that other players are catching up and passing him?

It's a good question, one that I'm going to be asked often and have already been asked quite a bit by our readers. And again, we said in the earlier a second, I don't expect people who read my articles or listen to this show to remember every single thing I've ever said or written, but I think you guys will remember that I have not been like a McKenna cheerleader for the last two years. I know when we came out of his Link of Gretzky a year ago, I was pretty harsh about him, even going into the summer last year. I was like, yeah, he's probably number one, but we'll see. And I think if we would have gone to his draft year, you know, he started looking at things

a little bit more critically. I can't make any guarantees. Do I think there's probably a better chance? He's probably number one than he is right now when he went to play against better players and just didn't really have a good first half. Of course, like, we expect if he would have stayed in the Western League, you'd probably be the clear leading score right now in that league. But I still think you would be having some conversations about how.

even the Western elite people I know who saw McKenna a lot in the past two years still questioned his compete, still questioned his pace, still questioned his play away from the puck, questioned how it would translate. But it might be more of like an Alexei Lefranier situation where like, but yeah, yes, he might have this skating issue or this issue, but he has 200 points, so shut up and take him. So I think that would be a little bit more complicated to probably be the better way to answer that. To stay in junior, you've made this point in the past, right, to stay in junior with the college avenue available would have raised a different set of questions. And it's almost

pick your poison at that point. So not an easy one. Yep. And we'll see, you know, that with some future kids now too. I don't think like Landon and DuPont or Alexei Joseph are so killing it in junior that it's that they, that's so presumed that they should go to college. I don't know if I had them will go to college next year, but I think that's going to be a situation for future draft eligible is for sure. Scott Fred Thornborough wants to revisit the 2024 defense class. That's the one that had all those D that I think they ended up just going top 12. But Ardum Levchenov, Carter Yakimchuk, Zane Perak, Anton Zelayaev, Sam Dickinson, Ziv Bouyem, how would you rank them two years later?

Honestly, I think I'm probably in the same spot now as I was then. Then I had Artie Webschanov won and then Saliov and Yakimchuk kind of in a separate group, so fifth and sixth. and then I had a cluster of Porek and Dickinson and Boyam sort of in between the top end and the bottom end there. I still feel about the same way. Like I would definitely have Selyev and Yakimchuk fifth and sixth amongst that group. The top four might be reordered ever so slightly differently than I had it. I had it Lev Shunov, Perek, Boyam, Dickinson in that order at draft time.

I think Dickinson maybe rises one or two spots there, But it's still those front four and then a bit of a gap for me between that group of four and Salive and Yakimchuk. I probably would have a good, top group with left. I would be one for me as well. And then I would think I'd have Dickinson and Boyam in a group. And then the next group for me would be, you know, would be Yakimchuk, Parik and Saliov. Parik I really struggle with. Like, I really don't know what this guy is going to be at the end of the day.

I think his hockey sense is really good, but I think he'd be closer to that second group than the first group. The interesting thing there is Selyev, because the upside there, he had the scoring binge at the start of his draft year. And the floor has always been evident with the physicality, the size, the athleticism. But when the scoring binge goes away,

does it make you change your view on the upside at all? Yeah, it kind of looks more like Zadarov right now. Still a good player, still a very good top four NHO defense. Yeah, he'll play in the league. He'll play in the league. And I think if you're the devils when you're looking at, well, we can't even find space for Simon Nemich on our power play despite the season he's having. Then I think you look at that guy and you're like, yeah, we'll take this guy. Like, you know, he will play in our line up.

He'll help us win games, even if he's probably only going to get you 10 points a year. Hold that thought on the devil's defenseman. We may come back around to that in a couple of questions here. Oh, boy. Yeah. Chris, how well does another mechanic question. This is from Ken. how well does McKenna have to perform at the world juniors?

He says to lock down number one overall. How about to just get himself back into number one overall? Yeah, to get back into number one overall, he's got to be the MVP of the tournament. I mean, like, you know, that's kind of where I'm at at this point. I think that the, like, how down bad it is right now is, is probably, you know, it's been stated a ton. We've beaten a dead horse on it. But there, but it's, it's not just that.

It's not just about the points that he has to score. It's about, you know, can he drive play? Can he make the others around him better? Does he compete hard enough? What are the questions we're asking right now? It's consistency of competitiveness. You've got to be not just good at the tournament. You've got to be good in the toughest games.

You've got to be good against, you know, in the preliminary round, Finland, essentially. You know, I think the checks are going to be tough. I think there's a lot of, you know, if you get into the medal round, Sweden, USA, you're going to have tough games. You have to be able to do that. I think for him, like the best way to quiet things down is a strong World Junior Championship. We've seen it over the years, different players that have more solidified themselves in the draft conversation at the world juniors. The example I go back to most frequently, because I think it was one of the most significant was Nico Heeshire. And he almost single-handedly beat USA in the quarterfinals of a year.

the USA won the tournament. So, like, you know, that was one of those kind of moments where he had it. Now, for Gavin, he's got a couple of things working against him right now. It's that, you know, the points are still there. His scoring isn't amazing, but they're still there. It's everything else. So he's got to actually pass the eye test more, I feel like, at the World Juniors, than he does even scoring a ton of points.

Because now you look back to his under 18 worlds when he set the Canadian school. scoring record, and it was incredible. You did a great job. But I think as we look at these tournaments, the absence of Russia and the absence of usually more than one meaningful game, you know, that you've lost, it does kind of diminish a little bit what we're going to take away from this. The nice thing about this year, as Scott was talking about, we're going to have one-to-one comparisons all over the place, which is great.

We'll be able to see them on either the same ice. surface or in the same setting or against the same opponents. And that is going to give us a little bit more of a measuring stick. So I think that there is pressure on Gavin about his, you know, like, but Canada, based on paper, he should be able to get his cookies here. So it's just do everything else. I mean, he's a returning member from last year's team. Like, yeah. He's, he's, he's, he's, has a lot of international experience. I mean, if we were handicapping who's going to be the MVP of the tournament, he would probably be one of the first two to three. names that comes up, right? Like, I mean, at the end of the day, despite all of his issues, it's still all world skill. That power play is going to be rolling. He's going to get a lot of touches. He's going to get a lot of points. But to Chris's credit, it's mostly about how he's going to perform in the metal round games.

Yeah. Yeah. It's probably, it's probably, yeah, McKenna, Martone, Stenberg, Hudson, Hagen. Higgins. Like, those are the names. Yeah. All right. Next one, Corey.

And I'd love to get all of you on this one, but let's start with Corey. where does Ben Kindle rank in a 2025 redraft at this point? That's a great question because obviously he's been very good in the NHL, but just because he's gotten to the NHL first. I mean, he's kind of leapfrogged a lot of those premium pro prospects that went very early in the draft. Like you start going down like the names that were the top tier, you know, Schaefer, Misa, Frandell, Dinoje, Martin, Martone, Hagan,

O'Brien, could you get him ahead of one or two of those guys? Yeah, maybe. Martin and Dinojee haven't been great to start the year. I still struggle getting him ahead of them, but I could at least see the argument, especially for the guys. I was more like Brady Martin, given that he's closer to his size,

and though he's nowhere near as physical as Martin. I'm not really a big Merckka guy, so I can definitely get him ahead of Merdka. And then McQueen would be, I could go either way. McQueen's offense hasn't been great, but you're still looking at the physicality. He's shown in school,

and he's 6'5, and he can skate. like that's a really unique player. Like we're talking about Belchess earlier. Like that's that profile, but he plays center. Like that's a really intriguing player. So I would guess like he went 11. I guess like nine or 10 probably for me. So like deserved where he went.

Shouldn't have been criticized as heavily. But I also don't think like they have like this budding superstar or anything like that. Like it's more like kind of like how we felt about. There's a lot of analogy between him and Zach Benson, or at least from Benson was two years ago. Probably a better skater than. Benson and maybe not quite as hard. And a center.

Yeah. Well, we'll see long term. But yeah, at the moment he is a center on the penguins. But yeah, I think there's some close analogies there. And you could have arguments about how Benson has aged, but that's a whole other discussion. Yeah. And I mean, I think to Corey's point, like, get the NHL can lie to you sometimes, you know, because it's all situational.

It's, you know, if the, the penguins had a spot for them for, for, for, for, for, for Ben Kindle, a lot of teams would not have had. And so I think that that's another thing that you kind of have to take into account. No question. Like I was way too low on him last year. Based on what I've seen this year, based on the hockey sense and the other things that he has been able to do so far, I was definitely too low on him. But he did go 11th, which was higher than most of us expected him to go.

And now, you know, the penguins can at least have this time where they're like, hey, this is actually working out pretty darn well, probably sooner than they even anticipated. But yeah, but just because a player makes it, you can't just like, this is still a long tail and let's see where the kind of everything else plays out. But I mean, you know, take the victory lap while you can and see, see what happens there. But I think to Corey's point, just because that player made it first, that was a great way of putting it just because a player made it first doesn't make him significantly better in terms of the long term of what these players are going to be. Thank you.

Scott, where would you have, Kendall? I think about the same spot. He'd be 9 to 11. Yeah. That one was from Adam Smith, by the way. I forgot to say his name, but he is the invisible hand guiding our podcast here. Thanks, Adam. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. Tristan, Scott wants to know, if you were the GM of the Canucks, what's your ideal trade package for Quinn Hughes? I mean, my ideal trade package for Quinn Hughes is a haul. the realistic package, I think still has to be, like, I'll almost flip it back to you, Max, because I've been fascinated to read the dialogue on Red Wings Twitter, which somehow has ended up in my algorithm over the last couple of weeks and has been sort of frequently discussed as a hot topic. Because it feels like every time I see someone, whether it's someone I follow who covers the Red Wings or one of the notable podcast hosts or bloggers, everybody is kind

of having the same conversation, which is no to Simon Edvinson. And yet I don't think there's any scenario, if I'm the GM, to answer this question, if I'm the GM of the Vancouver Canucks, where I'm making that deal with, for Axel Sandine Pelica or Nate Danielson or one of those pieces as the center piece of the deal. Like, I think there has to be an Edvenson level player. And I don't think that downgrades what Edvinson is. I understand his value. I understand why Red Wings fans would want to keep him. But I also think Red Wings fans need to be reminded of how transformational Quinn Hughes is. Like, this is a future hallfamer.

This is a number one defenseman for the rest of his career until injuries or age says otherwise. Like, this is a Norris trophy caliber player. And as great as Edvins in it is, I think that, like, he has to be in the deal for me if we're talking strictly like a Red Wings, a Red Wings transaction. I had this debate with a coworker recently who was making a similar point to you. I do feel like if I was Detroit, I would not put Simon Edvinson in this deal. for a couple reasons. One, I look at the past trades of superstar players, and I don't see really any Edvenson level players getting traded.

Sometimes there's a prospect who you hope becomes that, but really not an one who's in the NHL playing 22 minutes a night. Like I look at it and I say Eric Carlson got traded for Josh Norris before he debuted, a first round pick, Chris Tierney, Dylan DeMello, and a second round pick. I don't see anything like a Simon Edvincent in that trade. I look at the Eichel trade and I guess you could say Alex Tuck would be the closest thing to that, but that still feel like a winger still feels like a different thing to a top pair defenseman to me. And so that's one is the precedent.

And two is like the motivation for Detroit. It's if you have one of the best top pairs in the NHL right now in Edvenson and Morsiders, you know, analytically, like wherever you want to rank it, top 10, whatever. Obviously, you get better if that's Quinn Hughes on the top pair instead. But you don't solve the main issue, which is that the decor as a whole overall. isn't good enough. I think if you're trading for Quinn Hughes, the idea would have to be to pair him with, you know, a combination of Moritz's Sider and Simon Edmondson, and then you have this, you know, unique team strength. That would be your identity as a team is how good

the top of your blue line is. So I would do everything to keep Simon Evincent out of that trade. And I don't really see the precedent. When you're talking about a guy who's got one and a half years left, you can't sign him to extension when you make the trade, that to me is one of the big reasons why you couldn't even consider it. You know, Jack Eichel was traded with six years on his contract. I know there was the neck thing complicating it. But you know, the team control they have on Simon Edvinson, the age, the runway, and just the team situation, I'd keep him out of that too. I do think the price is huge though on Hughes. I'm not trying to say like they should have to give him away. I think it's three premium assets.

I think Hughes is a better trade piece than Carlson coming off of reconstructing his foot and Eichol coming off of the surgery. You consider age. You consider pedigree. Like I do think it has to be it was 26 and 28, yeah. But it has to be a better, a better trade. package, no. Yeah, and I would say, Max, if you don't include Simon Edmondson, okay, you're not getting Quinn Hughes, no big deal. It could be, but who else has given up Quinn Hughes? I mean, who else has given up a Simon Edmondson, I'm saying? Like, like, is there a Simon Evanston prospect out there? Somebody's going to have to. Somebody's going to have to because I'm not seeing anyone else's, anyone else's name out there that's at that level, personally.

Yeah, I guess that's true. Simon Nemitz? I mean, is Simon Nemitz, I mean, is Simon Nemitz that level for you guys? I don't think so. No, no, he isn't. No, I mean, and that's the thing. He's been pretty good lately. He has been good, but he's not. I wouldn't put him with evidence. I would. But yeah. But I think, I think that, I think that that's the thing is like, you know, yeah, to your point, you're right.

Trades like Quinn, like, there really isn't a lot of precedent. There really isn't. Like, you know, in terms of where he is right now, the fact that he still has runway to even be better than what he is right now, I think that's the thing that, to me, like, we would have to see a trade that I feel. would be, if I'm, if I'm Vancouver, it would have to be unprecedented. There is no way I can make that trade without a significant roster piece coming back for sure. In addition to future pieces. And, and to be completely honest with you, you know, I, like, even if it was Simon

Evanston coming back the other way, what else do you, what else do you got for me? Right. You know, what else? Because it couldn't just be that. Max, do we also like really see a fit here from the Troy's perspective? Like you're bringing Quinn Hughes and you're bringing him into be your number one

defenseman obviously, your power play guy have, you know, be an offensive leader for you and he definitely would do that. But like Detroit's power play has been excellent the last 18 months. Sider and Quinn Hughes have the same amount of points so far this season.

Obviously there's Quinn Hughes has definitely got more skill and there's not question there, but I kind of that's where their big need is, opposed to, like, saying, trying to add, like, a prolific score or prolific forward to this team at some point.

Well, what I would say here is, like, the power play has been really good. I absolutely think Quinn is still a fit in Detroit, 100%. And it's because... Well, he's fit anywhere. It's just a matter of, like, if you're going to dump all these major assets

of getting one piece, where would you rather target it, essentially? It's a fair point. I mean, I still think that their blue line is a problem, like behind Sider and Edvenson. It's, you know, you got to find a way to piece together the other, 35 minutes a night, basically.

And Ben Chirot's been, like, good this year, but he's not a forever piece. He's on an expiring contract. He's an older player. When I look at the power play specifically, I'm not going to hijack this whole podcast and make it about the Red Wings, I promise. But like, the driving force of the Red Wings power play, I think is still Patrick Kane, and he's not going to be there forever. And so that dynamic will change whenever Kane moves on.

But I do get your point. Like, Sider's been really good running that power play. And it's not just this year. So it's a valid point. I think it's three premium assets plus a roster player, plus maybe something else for Quinn Hughes. And I think that like when I say premium assets, that's like first round pick or first round pick equivalence.

That's more than Miko Ranton got. And I know Brantanen was a true pending versus Hughes a year out from that. Like I think that's a huge price. I just don't, I don't agree with the idea that like you can't trade Quinn Hughes for, you know, for that price. I think that's a huge kickstart to a rebuild personally. Whether it's Detroit, whether it's anyone,

whether it's New Jersey, whether it's Washington, like whatever, all these teams Philly that are getting floated. That's where it would be for me. But maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. Next one is from Isaiah and Chris, he wants to know if Porter Martone's NCAA performance has met or exceeded your expectations.

I would say met. I would say met, you know, like I think that the thing about Porter is, you know, the expectation, I think for any of these guys making the jump from junior to college, you know, would be a transition of some kind. I think he's managed it as well as anybody. He's also part of one of the best teams. So, you know, to see what he's doing this year, he's been a goal score, he's been around the net, he's done, you know, pretty much all the things that you kind of would expect a Porter Martone to do. He's displayed the physicality. You know, I think that there's a lot of things that he's able to do on the ice that, you know, because of his size, excuse me, his size, his hockey sense and some of the other things that he does. he's just been a very natural fit at Michigan State. So it's more that hand-to-glove situation.

I think you talk about when these players are making these decisions about where to go, you have to have a sense of how you fit in. And I think that there's been a real natural fit for Porter there. And to me, what we expect is this is a one-and-done situation. He's in the NHL by the springtime. And he's going to be able to make that. transition better because of, you know, the high intensity games. Now, Michigan State has taken a couple of little stumbles here of late on their path towards what we believe is a national

title contending season. But he's been a real bright spot for a team that has a lot of talent around it. And, you know, I think he's been among their best, you know, and most consistent performers. Yeah. All right. Last one's to Corey. This one is from Niskepooh. Is this it's surprising to many in the industry how generational Schaefer's year-to-date has been as a defense with a late birthday and given his prospect profile, he wasn't touted to the extent Bedard or Salabrini was for that matter. And also, like, we talked about the lack of reps he had last year, like to come right into the NHL and do this is pretty special. Yeah, I would reference that questioner to an article I did in the spring last year where I

pulled a bunch of NHL people and asked them to do the exercise where they ranked the last 10th first overall picks. And that's always a difficult article to do because it's difficult to battle, you know, hindsight bias and compare, you know, try and put yourself where you were at the time of those last 10 drafts. But there were a number of scouts who put him ahead of a dart. And I think one, put him ahead of Celebrini. And I think at the time, you look at the comments of the article as calling it ridiculous and whatnot. And I think there were reasonable arguments to call it ridiculous. Guy had like, whatever, two goals in his OHL career or something like. that going into his draft.

But I think there were, I think it was a minority opinion. I think most did not expect this. Most expected loved him. Thought he was the clear number one, did not think he was going to be an impact player from day one, never mind being the Team Canada Olympic conversation in his first few months of the season. But I think there was plenty of people in the league who thought this is a difference-making type of prospect.

This is a guy who's got a chance to be a star number one defenseman in Miro Hayskin and a type of category of defensemen. And he's just done it, I think, even earlier this I've expected him to. Yeah. All right. That is going to do it for us. Great show, guys. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series.

Remember, you can catch more of Chris over at Flow Hockey on his podcast called up. We'll talk to you soon.