The Athletic Hockey Show - Hagens and Martone battle for No. 1 in latest NHL Draft rankings

Episode Date: November 15, 2024

On today’s Prospect Series episode, Max, Corey, and Scott discuss whether James Hagens or Porter Martone belong at the top of the latest 2025 NHL Draft rankings, if Matthew Schaefer could challenge for the number one spot, and more. Plus, the guys take a very early look at the 2026 class, headlined by Gavin McKenna, and they close things out with a bunch of listener questions in the mailbag. Hosts: Max Bultman and Corey PronmanWith: Scott WheelerExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Chris Flannery Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. Hey, everybody, Max Boltman here alongside the Athletic Scott Wheeler and Corey Prondman for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. We're going to go heavy on draft talk today. Scott and Corey, you both put out your latest 2025 draft lists. And that's where I want to start because we're getting into the point of the season now, where I think there is a little bit of movement for both of you. And Corey, that comes through right at the very top of your list where you've got a new number one. Yeah, and I mentioned both in the writing in on these podcasts for months now that I thought it was really close between Boston College Center James Hagan's and Brampton Winger Porter Martone.

And I felt that way coming into the year. And both of them have been excellent to start the year. But I would say Martone really has elevated his game to a whole other level. You could argue he's been one of the very best players in all of the CHL. He's just a big, powerful winger. He works hard. He skates well enough. He's got a truly elite skill level.

I think he's going to be on the Canadian World Junior team. Might even be a significant part of that Canadian World Junior team. Like I anticipate Higgins will be for the U.S. team. And I think he just has a very unique toolkit. I think Hagan is, you know, with the way he can drive, play and with his skating and his high-end skill and vision, this is very unique too. but a big winger like Martone who can dominate in various areas of the game, to me, is extremely unique. And to me, that's differentiated there.

But quite frankly, when I talk to people around the league, there would be people that would have Martona won. There would be people that would have Haganza one. And there would be conversations like, well, where does Matt Schaefer fit into this? It's like, well, where does Michael Mesa fit into this? You know, Michael Meese has been incredible to start the year. He's absolutely played his way into the conversation where he should be discussed with those guys. Matt Schaefer was out for a significant portion of the year due to having mono,

but he was outstanding at the Honkogretzky. I went to go watch an Erie game about a week or so ago, and I thought he was just outstanding in that game too. And he looks like a truly premium D prospect, you know, somewhere on that Miro Heskin into Jake Sanderson scale in terms of the caliber of prospect in the way he plays with his, great skating, the size. He can move puck.

He defends extremely well. So I think you've got on top of the draft here where there's going to be some debate where I think depending on who you ask in the league, you'll get different answers and how those four or five players, depending on how people feel of Roger McQueen or Anton Frundel, whatever, would shape up.

And I think we've, you know, the World Juders is going to be a pretty pivotal point for some of these guys and we'll kind of see how the rest of the season goes. I think it's interesting because Scott, you had in your list, you had Hagen's in a tier of his own. And I know you made the comment that you really thought about doing a tier of four, which kind of lines up with what Corey's saying here.

But you did end up sticking with Hagan's in that kind of tier one all by himself. And I'm curious, like, what made you want to go that route? I think part of it's positional and part of it's the way that he skates. The skating continues to elevate. He was a dynamic skater even entering this year. But the way that he has skated at the college level, the way that he's challenged players, put guys on their on their heels, his transition game at the college level, all of that has really, really grabbed me early on. Certainly, if Porter continues

to produce the clip that he's on, if Porter has, as Corey mentioned it, isn't just on the World Junior team, but is an important piece of that World Junior team, which seems likely at this rate, then it's a conversation all year long about those two guys, even with one being a winger, especially because of the profile of that winger as a big, strong athletic six-foot three kid who can score. With Hagen's though, his ability to drive play, his ability to skate and the position piece of it

has really sort of solidified him for me as not just a part of that conversation, but still leading it. I think he's been unbelievable immediately at BC. And the goals haven't maybe been there, but his ability to playmaking and drive his own line and bring guys into the fight and elevate whoever he's playing with has continued at the college level.

Guys have ended up on his line and just been better. So that piece of it has sort of just wingered long enough that I still think it's sort of Hagen's is to lose here. But it's really close. Like I debated it both ways. As I mentioned, thought about having a tier of all four of them rather than just a one and then sort of two to five, two to six tier. But those guys have really solidified him.

And Schaefer in particular, I don't think is out of that conversation at all. He has been very good over the last couple of weeks. He was good right away when he came back. But he's been even better the last three or four games he's played here and looks like a sort of two-way stud. So I think it's a legit conversation. The one Corey's alluding to, I think is a very legit conversation. And I mean, Martone's on pace for, what, 150 points if he keeps it up. Now, those are Connor Bedard numbers.

we're not sure that we'll see that or that that will sustain. But even if he has a 110, 120-point season, the kind of season that players like Mitch Marner and Dylan Strom had, that with his profile, with the fact that he's been a captain, all of that is going to make for an extremely compelling case, whether he's a winger or not. It's interesting the way Scott talked about what he's seen from Hagan's this year.

I've watched like three or four of his games, and I think he's been excellent. I have not seen, like, you know, for me, when I've watched him, there's been some games where I think he's been like their third or fourth best at times in games and like where like, you know, Perrault and Ryan Leonard in particular would stand out more. So maybe I'm watching the wrong games or something like that. And that's, you know, part of sample bias maybe in terms of why you would have one guy over another. You can't watch every single game in the world. But I haven't seen that when I've watched him this year.

I've certainly seen that in at least a couple of viewings. And obviously, I mean, if Gabe Perot is having a better night than James Hagen's, Gabe Perra's a pretty phenomenal. nominal player in his own right and Brian Leonard's same boat. So you're talking about two of the better prospects in the sport who also play on that team. But yeah, no, there's some legit players on that team. And I think Higgins has been every bit as good as those other two guys to start this year, at least from what I've seen. It's a shame we don't have Chris Peters here today because this is taking shape, Corey, a lot like that 2020, it was a 2022, where it was Slavkovsky and Logan Cooley were the two guys that you had. And we, we seem to redo

that debate quarterly, approximately on this podcast, no. And if you kind of want to make the further analogy, like kind of in the background there, you have an exceptional status kid who's like maybe not the sexiest player, but he's very talented, and he's been a very productive junior player. And obviously having a great year. Talk about Michael Misa in that regard. And I think there would be people in the league who would have Misa in that conversation, quite frankly.

You made the point earlier about Schaefer, and Scott talked about him not being out of that conversation at number one by any means. And I'm curious, because I know, Corey, you have a little bit of a gap here between Schaefer and your next D in this class, who I think comes in at eight here for you. Right. It's only, I think the actual numerical gap is five spots. But if you actually, like, kind of read the article, I make a distinction of saying, like, there's several tiers of talent between Schaefer and the next best player. Like, to me, it's, I don't often see that with a position, well, outside maybe goalie, where you have that big a gap from one to two, essentially, at the position. And that, to me, is going to create a really

interesting dynamic in this draft. Because I think everyone would agree that Schaefer is the best D in this draft. I would, I don't want to speak for, say everyone, because, you know, people go around the world, everyone will have strange opinions. But I think most people would agree Schaefer is the best prospect. But I think you ask people around the league, well, who's the second best deep prospect and you'll get a variety of answers some will say the tri-city's jackson smiths some will say wisconsin's logan hezler some will say already murkka who's out in check you but most expect will be in the western league here in the coming weeks um some would say barries kishan a hitchinson um and it's it's a you know and so it depends where you fall on on that question

but i think you know most would agree that it's a pretty large gap from one to i think and in the coming months as we start to see the standings kind of shape up here. She obviously, you know, someone like Chicago just took a defenseman second overall in last year's draft. I think they're, you know, they took Kenan Kourchinski recently high. I think they probably are relatively happy with their young defensemen, although obviously they need a ton at every position. But I think you're going to start getting to see which organizations really need that premium young defensemen in their organization. And you're going to, I think, start wondering, okay, well, who's going to take that shot at Schaefer?

I think that's going to be a quite fascinating element of this draft to play out because he's a very rare player. If you love Higgins, you're like, well, we need our center. We really need the centers. Yeah, well, Mesa's a center. And he's an excellent player. Roger Quince's a center. He's an excellent player. Anton Frundel is having kind of a slow start to the year.

I think maybe there's a little bit of questions on how much offense he's really going to have. But he's an excellent player, too. But if you don't get Schaefer, you can get a defenseman, man, you're looking like, he projects us a potential one in the NHL. The next best guy is like a three or a four. It's a pretty massive gap, in my opinion. What would be your number two D in this class, Scott? I think at the moment it's Logan Hensler still. I like the way Logan skates.

I like his ability, his potential to be a sort of strong defender. He's mobile. He's active in the offensive zone. There's a lot to like about Logan. The one thing with Logan, though, that has begun to linger with me over the years is just a want for him to take charge. It was kind of the same want that people had with much. Michael Mesa a year ago and a question that Michael Mesa has obviously answered pretty emphatically is,

okay, it's there. Now, figure out what your identity is and then own that identity and be that player every night. I've seen games where Logan Hensler has taken over with his skill level and his skating. He's looked like a natural on the top power play unit at both Wisconsin and at the NTDP in stretches. Obviously, Cole Hudson was the leading part of that in the end. But there have been stretches of play for Logan Hensler where I've thought, okay, this kid has it. And then there are other nights I've watched Logan Hensler really over the last three years and thought this kid doesn't really know who he is. And I think over time, now that he's at Wisconsin, a program that's in flux, a program with frankly a weak roster around him. It's been hard for him to really take charge and take over games, which you want to see if you're going to take a kid in the 10, 15, even top 20 range.

But to Corey's point, I think it's close. Like, if you look at my list, I had Hensler, Aitchison, and, and Merck and Smith, all pretty close together. Smith is the one that's the most, maybe the next most compelling to me in terms of what he could be. Smith makes a lot happen when he's out there for good and bad. He has no issue taking charge. Very sort of commanding presence on the ice, wants to make plays, wants to be involved in everything, can come with some mistakes and some headaches, which he's still sort of learning when to take chance. is when to try to make something happen,

when to try to take over and when to sort of simplify. But those two players, in terms of upside, I think Merkka's a compelling player because of the skating and his size. It's pretty rare to see a player with that length skate like he does. And then Hsson, I just project, will be a good player. I'm not sure whether he has a star quality. But I think the other two, Smith and Hensler, have a real opportunity to hear to take some steps

and to show more offense than a player like an H-Sathearten or a Mertka. HSN is the second one on my board by like a razor thin margin. And I think I'm the high band on him from scouts I talked to. But if I was a betting man, if the draft was tomorrow, I think Smith would be the second D off the board with the offense he's showing. I think he's an overall point per game in the Western League now, plays big minutes, really good skaters, six three, just ticks a lot of the boxes.

And I think that's a guy that people look at and say he could be a top four puck moving defense in the NHL if he hits. It kind of reminds me a little bit at the same. age of like what Thomas Harley was like in Mississauga. It'd be very hard for me to not call Jackson Smith, Jackson Smith and Jigba, especially with him playing as close as he does to Seattle. So that's a real storyline to watch in this draft class. Really quickly on the defenseman, Corey, how do you contrast Acheson with Stee on Solberg from last year's draft? Because I think about the meanness and the edge there,

the mobility. Obviously, Solberg went a little later than I think we actually thought he did. Yeah, and I think that's a question that I'm having now is Solberg and continue to have a Solberg and say there with Acheson is, is this just a guy who skates well and hits hard and has a little bit of toughness and is like an average puck mover? Or is he going to have legit, you know, people of first pass ability in the NHL has skill for the NHL. I think with Solberg and in Faria's dead right now, you're kind of wondering that. It's like, okay, he's kind of like playing bare and bone minutes of nights. Can he make plays at this level? I think with Acheson, you're kind of wondering that too. Like, you know, some nights you're watching Barry, he's running the power play. Like he makes

plays. He's getting his points. And then there's some nights you watch him like, oh, that's ugly decision or is he a natural at the puck. And I think that's what teams are struggling with now. But he's a pretty rare player. Like, what the, just with the meanness in his game, the physicality, he skates well, he's nearly six foot two. Like, you kind of look at him and you're like, well, look at what Kate and Gully's been in the league. You look at what Brynn Schneider's been in the league. Like, he could be at least that, I think. Like, he should probably even showing more offense than those guys showed when they were going into their draft. So that's, I think, in the conversation with H's in right now. And to me, I lean,

him over Smith and Hensler. I think a player type is just so rare. If you believe there is some puck game, I do. Not everyone does. And we still have a long time to figure it out, including he'll have a very nice challenge as well as Smith Will upcoming here against the NTP at the end of November. All right. One more guy, Corey, on your list that is in that same tier as these names, but is not in the four you mentioned earlier as Roger McQueen. And obviously, I think the question here that most people are going to have is around his health. Yeah, and I think, you know, as a pure hockey player, Roger McQueen is really tantalizing. Like, to me, you know, he, you think of how, you know, Kirby Doc went third overall in his

draft year. I think, you know, with due to the size, the right shot setter, the skating, the skill, I think you could argue Roger McQueen was even a slightly better version of Docker, at least look in the early going, it looked like that little bit more of a consistent score, a little bit more of a finish in his game, and just, you know, a really special toolkin in that I thought he was, you know, training to be at potentially a top five, top three pick. I think even when TSN's Bob McKinsey released his scout survey beginning of the year, he said one of the 10 teams he talked to had McQueen at first overall.

And, you know, that lineup when I was hearing, too, he looked like he was in contention to challenge guys like Haygens and Martone. But now he's been a significant amount of time this year. And, you know, my understanding is he kind of tweak something in his back. I don't know the exactness of the injury. But obviously now you're kind of like wondering, well, I've heard, I've heard. seen this story before kind of thing. And, you know, with, with King Lynch from a year prior, obviously his injury more, you know, a herniated disc.

And, you know, he hasn't played hockey regularly now. And coming up on 11 months, that's a whole other circumstances that is, you know, at least I would say, you're a bluejackets fan, at least on my your concern. But I think with McQueen, that will be something, you know, just doctors are going to look into him and we'll see whether he, when he returned. I think there is still some hope he's going to return this season. but I don't know the exactness of his timeline. But when he's healthy, he looks like a stud,

potential number one center in the NHHF. He has a truly dynamic and unique toolkit. But health is going to be the thing with him going forward. Worth noting, too, that even when he was a point per game last year and his eight goals and eight games to start this year, that he was playing with this. I spoke with someone close to him, I guess it was a week or two ago now. And this is something that he's been dealing with for a while.

So they're finally taking this time away to get it right. He's also, because of how big and long he is, they've wanted to prioritize the gym for him in the last couple of off seasons, which has also sort of prevented him from truly resting and getting this right. So hopefully this allows him to sort of finally get it right and get healthy because the fact that he was playing injured and even at U18 Worlds where he, I think, I didn't confirm this with that source, but I think he reagravated it at U18 Worlds, which is part of the reason he left that tournament early. He looked like a high-end prospect, even while he was dealing with this, even while he was trying to get his legs under him as a big man, even while he was trying to get stronger. So there's still a lot to work with in a package that NHL teams are excited about, to say the least. A couple of names that have dropped on the list.

Anton Frundel, less so. You both still have him pretty high on this list in the top six or seven. But you're split on Ivan Ryabkin. Corey, you dropped him pretty significantly down your list. He's in the 20s, I believe, now for you. And Scott, you still got him fairly high. Let me get both sides to this argument here. Corey, why'd you drop him?

And Scott, why'd you keep him pretty high on your list? I mean, he's a really talented player. He's great skill, great hockey sense, good skier. I love watching him. He's played with his club team. He just played with the Russian under 18 team in some strange tournaments they have against Kazakhstan and Belarus under 20 team. I think he got a goal, one goal in that event.

But with the club teams, he's played, I think, like, 15, 16 games so far, and has a nice zero next to the goal column. Right now, that's a hard one to get over. You know, he's 5-11. And, you know, matter of fact, it is that, yeah, I loved him watching a lecture. He was awesome to watch as an underage. And there were times you watch it this year,

like I watched this first game or two in the MHL. He was really good. But you got to get it done. I don't, you know, underage profiles only carry you so long into the draft year. And maybe he turns it around here, you know, like Ivan Devondon, for example, didn't have a scorching hot start to his director of the MHL, then he just completely caught fire there in the middle of the end of the year. And I have to be open mind to that with React.

and maybe he does do that. But right now, I'm looking at a 5-11 forward who, you know, can be a little inconsistent, who is really talented, but doesn't seem to score a whole ton, who's good, none of elite skis. Gator, and to me, that's where he fits in the draft. Scott, how about you? For me, this came down to a couple of things. One is that I don't love the top of the draft class after those top six names as it is.

And so as a result, you start to measure him against some of the other names there. And I'm just, there are every player in that sort of 10 to 20 range on my list that are among those that I would have considered slotting ahead of Reabkin. I think they all have question marks in their own right early on this season in terms of where they are, what they're going to be. This isn't a draft class that excites me nearly as much as last years did. Last year, I had a kind of tier on my ranking that ran 17 players deep. I don't see anywhere close to that level of player or depth in this class. But part of it is just still the belief in last year. I mean, he had the most productive 16-year-old season in the history of the

MHL, more productive than both Demadov and Matt Veimichkov. He was phenomenal at that level. I thought He looked good in spurts in preseason action in the KCHO to start this year as well. The problem with Riaabkin is the decision making is just has been horrible, like bordering on atrocious this season. He has had some horrible, horrible nights where he has just looked completely ineffective. And there were rumblings of that coming into this season. I had a couple of people reach out to me throughout the summer about just a kid with a bad attitude and that kind of a thing.

sort of some of the same things that you'd heard about Matt Van Michikov at the same age. He wasn't a good teammate. And then he was healthy scratched earlier this year. And it's just been a slippery slope, obviously made the move to try to at least, whether that was pressure or sincere, to try to potentially come over and play for Muskegon in the USHL. And it's just been a messy start to the season for him. So if he doesn't get it to get it going and guys behind him on my list continue to play well

and continue to establish him themselves, then absolutely. this time at the end of the year, he's not going to be in that sort of seven to 12 range, that seven to 12 tier, if you will, on my lit. He'll for sure fall out of that. But I still do see a lot of skill. I still still see a talented playmaker. He's still got vision above and beyond some of those other guys in that tier. And there are just offensive qualities in his game that I still think are real. And I expect that push come to shove over the course of this season, we're going to start to see the stats and the points come back to where they should be with him. All right.

Let's take a quick break right there. We'll be right back to talk about some of the 2026 draft class just to give a little cherry on top for this draft talk today. All right, we're back. And I don't want to spend too much time going down this road, guys, because it is still so far out from the 26th draft score. I just kind of talked about with Ryabkin, with these underage years. But I do want to kind of get an early feel for it because I get the sense, especially

reading Corey's list. You kind of feel like this is 25 classes a little below average. And I think when we look a year out, there is kind of that Gavin McKenna buzz hype kind of lingering out there. And he's an awesome player. I mean, you look what he's done in the Western League the last, you know, a year and a half. He's just been a dominant junior player. We expect he's going to be on the world junior team as a draft minus one there for Team Canada.

He's a special player with his skill, his hockey sense. Like to me, I've used his combo on this podcast before. He's got the skill of Trevor Ziegress, but he just plays way faster than him, you know, a little bit more consistent than him. It's just a, you know, it's a really special combination of traits. You know, but when I look at the next year's draft, as I look at Gavin McKinnon, he has potential to be that special number one. But, you know, when you're a year to half out, and as I tend to do, I always like to ask, well, what if he isn't? What if he isn't special? What if he's just awesome?

And then you kind of look throughout the draft and you would be, you would ask, well, what other players have a chance to run? to that level and have pretty unique toolkits. And I think we were all just at the U-17 challenge. And I think the one player for me that looks like he's got a really unique toolkit is Ethan Belkitts from Windsor and the Ontario League. And I mean, he is an absolute monster of a man. And by a monster of a man, it's a weird thing to say for a 16-year-old player. But I think hockey can't have measured him at 6'4, 220 pounds.

or something along those. That's crazy. And I've stood next to him. He looks, you know, this is not like a guy with some, you know, some extra weight on him. This is, he is, you know, very built already at his age. I mean, you kind of wonder a little bit. I don't love this argument typically with pleasure, but you almost wonder if there's like, is he too advanced too quickly, how is this going to age?

What does he go look like in two or three years versus when the rest of the age group catches up, et cetera? But watching him now, he's that big. He skates pretty well. for his size. He's very skilled, producing well and helping Windsor win games as a 16-year-old. He looked like he's got a really unique toolkit of the chance to catch McKenna potentially in 18 months if things were to change. And the other one that's caught my eye early on, he wasn't at the Senate Teen Shoggi's late birthday. We'd be Ryan Rubrik with Niagara,

just, you know, both McKenna and Belk heads are wingers. And Rubik is like a big centerman who skates well, who produces offense, and that could maybe potentially be a little bit more appealing if the offense was really high-end. I think nobody's offenses as high-end as McKenna's right now. He's a really special offensive player. But that, to me, is how things are shaping out early, Scott. Do you see anything different in that regard?

No, Rubrik, I think, is right there in that same mix. Obviously, you've been outstanding this year. That Niagara team, I think, has been a surprise by and large. their success in the OHL this season and Ryan has been a huge part of that big kid who can make plays. He actually applied for exceptional status along with William Moore the year that Michael Mesa did. They only awarded it to one of them. Obviously, William Moore then made the decision to go to the national program instead of going to the OHL. And over the course of time, Rubrik has just sort of looked, not like an exceptional status player, but has looked like a legitimate

high-end prospect. The other one who stood out to me and has for me been the best player that I've seen in this draft class over time here is Ivar Stenberg with Rolanda's J20 team. He played it last year's U-17 Worlds and was one of the best players there. He was tremendous. And I thought the driver of the Swedish team at the Heleneke-Gretzky Cup this summer. And he's now off to a basically historic, almost unheard of start at the date J-20 level this season. You have him ahead of McKenna right now? Second best player after McKenna. The second best, sorry, misspoke there. Clearly second best player after McKenna. Stenberg, Stenberg looks like, looks like the real deal to me. I think

Stenberg's got an opportunity here to be like a legit star player. Again, we're a long, long way out and I want to see him play at the SHL level. I think he's only played, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Stenberg's only played one game in the SHL to date. I don't know how many minutes he played in that game, but he's, he's going to get some looks at the SHL level with Rolanda here before this season is done. And obviously next year, he's got an opportunity to play there. And if he keeps on this track, I think he looks like a sort of legit stud prospect. I don't disagree with Scott said.

I think Stenberg is absolutely at the top of next year's extremely way too early ratings. But, you know, we mentioned Stenberg, five, nine, five, ten winger, probably in the NHL. Belkent, he's a wing, McKenna is a wing, Rubber is a center. But history tells us probably the top three or four picks in the draft are not all going to be wingers. Somebody's going to emerge at the premium positions. And the one name that said out to me that you said that team, Chowice. That could be that would be Keaton Verhoff. He has a defense.

I don't know if I pronounce his name right at all. Scott, maybe you can correct me. Verhoff. Yeah, you're fine. Verhoff. He's defenseman in Victoria. He's got five goals, 11 points in 14 games so far this year. He skates well. He could p. Torre. He's a legit

two-way defense. It takes a lot of boxes. What you've been unique to be about his profile too is I think up until a couple of years ago, he was actually a full-time goaltender and converted recently to this position and just because like I see some of the maybe the average decision making times in the pop and I want to be just really raw and how he'll progress with time. But to me he looks like he's got a real chance to be a premier defense prospect as a pro if he continue to develops really

well. And that to me is a guy who at least in the very early on I think has a chance to maybe knock off one of those wingers we just mentioned. I did wonder a little bit about Verhof and the pace of play at U-17s. I thought that he struggled with it. it at times and the skating piece. I wasn't so sure about the skating piece. I thought he looked a little heavy out there at times, but his ability to make plays, the fact that he was a captain on that team,

his size, his production early on in the W.HL, he checks a lot of boxes. And they had some high-end D on that team as well. I thought Ryan Lynn and Daxon Rudolph, Lynn in particular, I thought both of those guys were really, really good as well.

So they had three guys that they could really lean on. All right, we're back, and we're going to go to the mail. bag here now. Good, good collection of mailbag questions this week. The first one is for Corey from Mark Gannon. He said he's surprised that Malcolm Spence isn't on your 2025, top 27 anymore.

What are your thoughts on him? Mark adds he feels he's not a high upside guy, but a very likable player for coaches. He is a very likable player. I love watching Malcolm play. His compete levels are really high end. He

just a great penalty killer. He plays with pace. He attacks the high percentage areas. He's hard on the puck's. I love those aspects about his game. I think, though, when you're talking about projecting his game into the NHL, I think they were tied this last year when I watched him as an underage where I thought. So, okay, is he like the most amazing playmate you've ever seen?

Is this a natural finisher? No, but he's got skill. He creates an offense. He was a boy per game underage guy. He played really well with Canada's whole link a team and underage team is an underage player. Like, yeah, he's going to have some skill in the NHL. I mean, not a big-time score, but there's going to be some offense there. Then you kind of watch him this year and you watch a lot of nights where he's like,

here he's third, fourth, fifth best forward at times. And it's been a real slow start for him. And then you're asking himself, okay, well, he's six one. It's fine. Cockplay, playmaking, nothing special here. Like, what is this really going to translate to the NHL? And I think you can talk to some scouts and like, well, that's a bottom six wing of the NHL.

He's a second round pick. And someone would say maybe he should be like a mid to late first. But he's not a high first, not a top 10, 15 guy. I think we're trying to figure out where Malcolm fits because he was so impressive the year before. It's the same conversation with React. When a guy blows you away as an underage, at what point do you get enough data in the other direction where you're like, okay, it was a nice story last year, but this season's a new story and it's not going well so far.

And I feel like mid-ish November was an approach. appropriate time to update what I've seen from him so far. He's got to play whatever 15 or so OHL games, a significant sample size. And, you know, we'll still a lot of hockey left to play. He could turn around. I mean, we weren't talking about Jet Lechenko at all in this range this time last year. And lo and behold, he looks like an awesome prospect. And so we'll kind of see how the second half goes.

But for what I've seen so far, I wouldn't have a hard time saying that he's going to be a second power play in the NHL. He's going to be a legit middle six forward place 1617. minutes and night. That's just not what I see yet, but maybe I'm wrong. I'd be curious. How would you contrast him against a Jet Lucenko or a Nate Danielson players you were higher on who statistically from a profile standpoint had similar profiles, especially with Nate, who was a late birth year? How would you compare Malcolm to those two guys? I thought they drove the bus for their teens. Like you watched Guelph last year. You watched Danielson and with Brandon, like even if they weren't

scoring, you still thought, okay, they have the puck all the time when they're on the X. Like, they're the main play driver on their team. Um, you know, with, I've seen gains on the Erie where like, you know, like, Spencer's even on their first power play right now. Like it's, that would be my, that would be my distinction right there. All right. Next question is from Benjamin Gardner. He says the number seven, eight, nine picks from the 2021 draft are all making positive strides in their development this year. Which one's projected ceiling gets you most excited among those three players, William Eklend, to Brant Clark and Dylan Genser?

For me, it's probably still Brant Clark, and I know Dylan Genter has had an excellent, excellent run of play here, not just this season, but dating back to last year, obviously earned a pretty significant contract, is the highest paid player of that bunch, will likely remain the highest paid player of that group for a while,

even if Clark does get some kind of a bridge deal here in the near future. But Clark, I think, has an opportunity to be a 50, 60 point defenseman in the NHL, like one of the premium offensive defensemen in the NHL. And I think this year what we've seen it of Clark is that, well, and really over time is that the defending has come a long way, his skating and athleticism has come a long way, never going to be perfect at any of those things. But I think Brandt defends well enough now and has defended well enough at lower levels to feel like, okay, Brandt might be able to play 19, 20 minutes a night.

And even if he's not a 25 minute a night guy, he's going to be a power play one guy. he's going to be a premium, premium offensive defenseman in the league. And I think that has more value than Eklin becoming a 50 to 60 point player in the league. And Genther already kind of being that kind of player, especially when both of those players are primarily wingers. So I would probably from that group of three favor Clark in terms of what we're talking about in the prime of their careers. I think Clark's a pretty unique player in the NHL. It is interesting because Genther's start has been outstanding. He looks like he might be a premium.

level goal scorer on the wing for Utah. Yeah, it would be Clark 1A, Genter, 1B, and then Eklund 3 for me, I think, pretty comfortably. All right. Next one's for Corey, Charlie Douglas. Is Sam Dickinson's increased production just a result of more ice time and being bigger and stronger, or has he made significant strides in his offensive game? And if so, how? Well, you always expect when guys go back to junior, it doesn't always play out that way, obviously.

but you kind of hope that they would take steps and they just score more because they're just more mature players, experienced players at that level. So I think when, especially in the 10 to 15 game, 20 games, sample size, if a guy is scoring ticks up significantly. You don't want to jump at too many conclusions. And I think with Dickinson, I think there were some questions of this guy going to be like, just score in the NHOs, just a skater with a little bit of, you know, with a little bit of offense, some puck play is not amazing. But I think so far it's been a very positive sign.

I think there's at least a chance that we collectively might have undersold how much offense was in this player's game. I wouldn't call him a super smart puck mover by any means, but I think when I rate him as below average sense going into his draft year and I may have to, that's one from what I've seen this year. I'm thinking, did I get that wrong? Do I need to revisit that? I think he's a pretty good shot to be on the World Junior team for Canada.

I think he might even be a top four defenseman for Canada at the World Juniors. and I think it'll be really interested to see how he holds up at that level, especially against the good teams. And I think if he's able to show, like, if he can get to that level and move the puck competently, I think that's going to be just a lot of evidence in favor of him. Like, hey, this is not just a six-three guy who could fly. Like, this is a guy that does a lot of things well.

And now you're talking on this good deep prospect, a really good deep prospect, but maybe he'd even be a premium deep prospect. I would just say on Dickinson, I have talked to some people around the OHA and some NHL who've watched him this year. And I think there is a belief out there that he's been a bit of a chicken with his head cut off this season. Part of that offense is just him trying to do maybe a little bit too much in it coming at the expense of his game defensively with that team.

But you contrast that against last year when his ability to defend and use his length and his skating was the high-end attribute. And maybe this is just him self-correcting a little bit and trying to work on some different things. but there have been some tough nights for him this year defensively, despite the offensive uptick. So it's been, I think there's been some give and take that way in terms of just the style that he's playing this season and what it means for his game. And he'll find, he'll figure it out and find that right balance.

I think the ability to be a high-end player at both ends is there for him, but it has been, it's come with some war, it's the other direction this season for sure. All right, dude wants to know if Michael Hage is a 2C at the NHL level, Scott. And will he be ready for the NHL after one season at Michigan? Or you think you should stay for a second? I would fully expect that Michael goes back for a second season. I don't know if that's what him or his family. I haven't talked to them about that specifically, but want or if that's what he envisions for himself. But after losing time in junior to the shoulder injury, just another

offseason, I think would be important for him. Go back to college. There should be no rush. And I think then you make your decision after that. We've seen Jimmy Snuggarood go back, Cole Cawfield, go back. There's been some precedent set over the last few years, some really high-end players who've decided to go back, sometimes for even two or three years, obviously in Jimmy's case. I think I view him in that sort of same mold and tier as a prospect, and it's quite likely that going back is in his best interest. As far as Choo-C., I think that's sort of the projection I've always had for him. I'm not sure whether it'll be actually as a sender or as a winger, but we talked about it last year. My comp for him was kind of Jordan

Cairo and that style of player. The skating about the same frame, same size, can make plays off the rush. That's sort of been his bread and butter. Cairo was never viewed as a high end sort of two-way type. Michael hasn't been viewed as a high-end two-way type, although I do think his play driving has been better this year than some people expected in terms of being able to play center

and hold his own and still drive a line and produce offense on his own and all of that. But yeah, I think that's what you're hoping for. If you're the Montreal Canadians, you're hoping that he's a second-line player for you, whether that's as a centerman or as a winger. I think if he's a second-man player, it's probably a winger. That would be my guess. Corey, you talked about Roger McQueen when we did the draft segment.

Corey Oliver wants to know, he thinks the profile that you laid out in the ranking sounds a lot like Logan Brown to him. Do you agree with that, obviously, besides the heightened positional overlap? I thought that was an interesting comment because I actually don't think it's actually a good analogy in that it's easy to say now that it didn't go well. But like Lope, some people adored Logan Brown going into his draft year. Look at a round of that profile as six, six Setterman with the kind of skill in hockey sense he has. And I think he was considered a decent enough skater.

I, you know, Brown was done in part because. his compete level wasn't just average. It was like notably below average. And I think with McQueen, I don't have that kind of search. I don't think his compete is what gets you excited about him. But I think he creates offense in the hard areas. I think he shows up consistently enough. And I think I would actually grade his skating ahead of Browns,

even though I don't think either of them is an issue for either of those two players. I think it's just, I would say McQueen's a better moving big man, at least mildly. But I think it's, I don't think it's an unreasonable. name to throw out there. And listen, there's a regional Logan Brown went, what do you go, 11th overall, 12th overall, something like that. He was a heck of a prospect. Every prospect pans out. But I think he's a slightly better version of that. All right. Next one is from Patrick McConnell, Scott. He says, out of all the rebuilding teams in the Atlantic, did you get a power ranking of them in terms of who you think will have the most

future success? And would you be able to highlight the missing pieces these teams needed in order to contend? The short version of this. We could probably do a whole episode on that. That's a very, very big question. But I think it has been front of mind for me. I've begun over the last couple of weeks putting together my prospect pool rankings for January. I know we're still two months out of that, but I've begun putting together the loose top 15 lists for all the teams and sort of loosely ordering them. And in doing that, you quickly identify that at least from a prospect pool standpoint now, the Ottawa senators have Tim Stutzla and Brady Kachuk. And we've had that conversation in terms of their core, obviously Jake Sanderson, in terms of their core versus the cores in in Buffalo or in Montreal or in Detroit. But when you look at the pro from strictly if we're talking prospect pools, I think all four of those, three of those other teams are a clear cut ahead of where the senators are after Carter Yakumchuk. It's one of the weakest pools in the NHL right now. Even Stephen Holliday, who was one of their sort of prized, more prized pieces, is sort of still figuring out his game in the HL. So a lot that's still

needs to be figured out in terms of adding to the Senses pool. And then you look at... But aren't they a good team like right now, like for the most part? Like they're fourth in the NHL right now when I checked on the possession metrics. It's still early, but... That's the counterbalance is this. The Sends are further ahead. They've got that established core.

I think they're right there in that sort of mix with I would probably put Montreal in that mix, sort of with them. I'm not sure whether Buffalo has the, true high-end pieces despite having a good young team and lots of excellent young players and Owen Power and Rasmus Dahlane. I'm not sure whether they have the high-end forward pieces that they're going to need to elevate that group despite having six or seven excellent young forwards both in the NHL and within their prospect pool. Montreal feels like they're getting closer to having what you'd want in terms of what Jacob

Fowler might be if he hits. Now, goalies are the wild card in all of this, Sebastian Cosa, same boat. Axel Sandian Pelica is a wild card, I think, in terms of the ceiling of what the red wings might be if he hits. But you look at, it feels like there's less wild cards in what Montreal's building. We know what Slavkovsky is. We know what Nick Suzuki is, Cole Caulfield. We know that they've got a really sort of strong developing young core on the blue line. And then you add Michael Hage and Ivan Demadov and what Ivan Demadov might become if he hits his ceiling. And it feels to me like Ottawa with what they've already got established and Montreal with what they're building.

Now they're in two different phases of their process, but those two teams feel like they probably have the highest overall upside. I just don't know whether, like Jacob Fowler feels like the X factor to me, because that feel, in terms of the missing piece question here, the missing piece for a lot of those teams,

obviously Olmark has sort of solved the missing piece question for Ottawa in that, but the missing piece tends to be goaltending. And I think Jacob Fowler has a chance to be better than Sebastian Kosa or better than Trey Augustine. Like I think we're talking about a very, very high-end goalie in Fowler if he hits. So that feels like it could make or break Montreal maybe in ways that those other teams don't have to rely on that, especially Detroit where you're counting on one of two

goalies to hit rather than just Fowler. All right. And then we'll close with this one, Corey from Nabil Raymond. What is the buzz around Cameron Schmidt, Nathan Beam, and Carter Bear within the scouting community, three WHL guys putting up big offense. Well, Schmidt, it's hard to deny what he's doing in the league right now. He's been one of the very best offensive players in the Western League right now, and he's an elite talent is one of the best pure skaters in his age group.

He may even argue he is the best skater in his age group. He's extremely skilled. He's a truly natural goal scorer who can score from range. you know, he's just 5'7 and he's a winger. And I think, you know, I think that's going to be a major question teams are going to have to wrestle with with him. Is, you know, the question with him is, is he Cole Cawfield? Is he Logan Stankovin or is he a level below that? And I think that's what teams are wrestling with.

You know, I've asked this question about Stankovin to people in the Western League. Like, is this guy Stankov? It's like, well, he doesn't compete as hard. It's like, well, that's a pretty important piece of why Stan Kovwin succeeded in the NHL. It's like, yeah, but this guy may be more talented. It's like, okay, well, is he Cole Cofield talented? It's like, I don't know, Cole Cofield scored 70 goals in his draft year. So I think that's the wrestle with Schmidt right now.

It's like, what part, what echelon is he going to be on? And I would say right now he's like, kind of like that's 20 to 40 range for teams at the moment. But we'll see how the rest of his year goes. And, you know, he keeps up this torrid pants. he's on right now. You mentioned Nathan Beam, more of a typical profile, 6-2, skating, skill,

producing really well. I think with teams, the concern there is more, like, I think the compete level is just average, like a little bit of a pre-meter player at times. I think that's a minor concern, but it looks like at least a top two-round pick. Wouldn't surprise,

he actually ended up being a late first when it's all said and done. Looks like a very promising young player with a chance to be a good pro. And then Carter Bear's stock is just really on the run. right now. I mean, he's a major piece of why ever

it's been a really, you know, top team in the Western League right now. He's super hard worker, very skilled, plays with pace, had a really good underage year too and just has been elevated to a whole new level, one of the top scores in the Western League right now. Like, I think when you think of names that weren't

at the top of people's minds coming into the year, there's always one guy who kind of race to the top of the charts. I think Carter Bear's got a chance to be that guy. All right. That's going to do it for us for this week's episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. I'll be back on Monday with Las and Chris Johnston. We'll talk to you then.