The Athletic Hockey Show - Has Jordan Staal entered the Conn Smythe Trophy race?

Episode Date: June 10, 2026

The Carolina Hurricanes, led by captain Jordan Staal, evened-up the Stanley Cup Final at two games apiece. Sean, Frank and Sean break down another nail-biter in Vegas, if Staal has done enough to enter the Conn Smythe Trophy race and how Brandon Bussi did in his first career playoff start. They discuss Mike Babcock potentially joining the Edmonton Oilers, the NHLPA asking the NHL to delay the hiring until a proper investigation can be done and the bad press that Dylan Larkin has received since demanding a trade out of Detroit.Host: Sean Gentille and Sean McIndoeWith: Frank CorradoExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Jeff DometWatch full episodes on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowJoin our Discord Server: https://discord.gg/VTm9VjkFSubscribe to The Athletic: https://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. What up, what up is the Athletic Hockey Show for June 10th, 2026. I am Sean Gentile. I am joined here with Sean McIndoo and Frankie Carrado. We are going to talk Staling Cup final game four, which was last night. I'm losing track. I'm losing. I don't know where I am, guys.

I'm going to the airport in like a half hour. We're going to talk that game. We'll talk Mike Babcock. certainly seems like he's got the inside track, I suppose, is a fair way to put it on a job with the Edmonton Oilers. But guys, let's start with the game last night. Big takeaway. I don't want to call him an under-the-radar consumide candidate because he had a bunch of goals already, and he was playing Jordan Stahl hockey. But it's Jordan Stahl. Two goals. Game winner from his stomach late in the third period there.

We just watched a guy he took over the top spot, right? For Carolina, if they get this done, it's really hard to imagine anybody. Because that's been part of the discourse last few days, right? It's like Mitch Marner wins it if it's Vegas. Who wins it if it's Carolina? Like, my God, that was close

to an all-time performance last night. You know what makes the Jordan Stahl thing so much more impressive is if you look at last night who he plays the majority of his shifts against, it's all against Eichel, Barbashev, Stone, Marner. Like over four minutes of five-on-five time against those guys last night, not to mention the other special team's assignments that Jordan Stahl has to take on every single night. And the offensive part of the game, it's so easy to get lost in everything that he has to do away from the puck. But he's putting it all together. Like he's, Jack Eichols got what, two goals and 20 games in these, like Jack Eichols,

it hasn't gone well for him. Jordan Stahl is a big reason why, but Jordan Stahl's also scoring on the other end of the coin. And he does a lot of the things that make the hurricanes what they are. He does those things well. And so I just, like his, his performance throughout the course of this series has elevated his consmite profile so much. And if they're going to win the cup, Jordan Stahl is going to have to have another trick up his sleeve. So I think that just, that solidifies his positioning if Carolina wins for a con smith title. I just, he's been so, so good on both sides of the coin. Yeah, I'm, I'm a little confused on the cons might talk because I was under the impression that the voting for that happened after round two.

And we'd already decided it. But, okay, it would be a very cool story if Jordan Stahl ended up being that guy, having the veteran do it after all these years. And I will say this, if Carolina goes on to win this cup, and maybe even if they don't, but certainly if they do win the cup, you are going to see that second goal from last night for years. Like, you know how certain goals just not necessarily because they're, biggest or the best goals, but because they are just the way that they look, the way that

they're shot, that that camera angle from inside the net of him swiping the puck and Carter Hart just reaching and just being a little early actually and just missing it, you're going to see that forever because that was phenomenal. I mean, that, and I'll say this, the hockey gods are serving up a great final, but they kind of odist that one after the winner on Saturday night was a bit of a stinker. That was a beauty. You were going to see that one for a long, long time because that was as good looking a goal as I've seen. And I still, I've never seen anything quite like that where a guy, like the stick goes by once and you think that's going to be the shot, but it's, it either he doesn't shoot or maybe he misses the puck on the way down and then gets it on the back swing.

absolutely amazing and get used to it because you're going to see it a few times. 20 years ago when Jordan Stall was a rookie in Pittsburgh, I remember Bob Airy doing color commentary on their local games back then. And Bives was just like obsessed, obsessed with how long Stahl's stick was. He was like, he called it the teradactyl out there, right? He was like, I'm Jordan Stahl with the tariff. And that was the first thing I thought of when he got his stick on that puck last night. Is how many guys in the league, truly, between the combo of wingspan, the length of the stick,

and to have even remotely like the skill and presence of mind to make the move in the first place? Like it's a matter of physics and also a matter of like biology, right? Like he managed to get the stick on it, but also the fact that he's got that he's six six with the arms of a seven foot dude and it has a nine and a half foot long stick like that played a that played a role there too and totally dude i was i was distracted by writing pregame or postgame by all the different angles the the the in-shot cam you know some of the shots on the on the getty wire of like the celebration of that goal like that's what really crystallize it sean is that Like, everything around that, you know, the circumstances, the way it was scored, the belly flop, like, you're going to see it forever.

The celebration was fantastic of more almost relief than anything. And you know, look, you loved it. I loved it. Carolina fans loved it. You know who loved that goal more than anybody? Seth Jarvis after he missed the little mini, like, gets set up all alone. and can't put it away. And you're sitting there.

I mean, I'm watching it home. Jarvis gets it. And I'm going, this is the Stanley Cup right here for the Hurricanes. And he doesn't score. And I went, that's it. This game is. Oh, no, never mind. Yeah, George Stahl bailed it out.

Thank you very. Yeah, and he did. You're right. He didn't. He doesn't get an assist on the play. Right. If you look at the game sheet today, there's no assist added to Jarvis. That's really funny.

But, man, the play that he's, makes in the corner. And there's another thing, like, you know, Rod should get some credit for that. He's obviously had to juggle the lines quite a bit because Aho's line hasn't been going. And that's another thing for me anyways, that adds to the whole Jordan Stahl thing is it's really two lines that are that are producing all the offense for Carolina. And so with Ajo essentially being negated at this point, you know, Jordan Stahl has had to pick up the slack and he's done it. So that's that's another thing. By the way, Gentile, I was unaware we were going to get a Bob Airy game drop today, but I am here for it.

I love Bob. I hope he's doing well. Same. Yeah. It's funny, too. You know, we're at the point now on the work end of things. You're in the middle of a series. You know, you can't, there's, the off days are weird.

You don't want to save stuff. don't want to save quotes that you get. But Taylor Hall yesterday, who's like the go-to guy on this team for media losers like me, if he's talking, I'm at the point now where I just hang out by his stall and his scrum, and I'll ask him a couple things, and I'll listen to the answers to the stuff that everybody else asks. And someone asked about stall a couple days ago, and I wish I could remember who, because it just set off this run of stuff from, from Hall about,

about stall and in, in the way he deals with anxiety and, and how he just doesn't feel pressure and, and all that. Because like, like, Hall said, you know, he's like,

I've, I've had moments, you know, where I'll ask him. Like, boy, that was, I was,

I was feeling anxious. I was feeling panic out there. He said, stall was just like, yeah, oh, huh, that's,

that's, that's, that's interesting. I, that doesn't, that doesn't happen to me. He's just like a low, a low blood pressure kind of guy.

just generally in life, whether on the ice, off the ice. And that was on Monday, right? That Hall said that. And I was like, huh, I'm going to save this. It feels like it might come in handy at some point, at some point down the stretch. And that was in the top of the postgame story last night. You know what that is? That's the farm.

That's all those years on the farm, man. Sod farm. We don't have time to worry about stuff on the farm. Like, the cows don't care. Like, it just, we got to get up and get. get going, so that's what we do on the farm. That's all that is. He doesn't get anxious about things.

The pressure's there. Everyone can feel it and see it. He doesn't feel it. He doesn't get nervous. I've kind of talked to him a bit about it before, and he was like, all right, that's not something I feel, but okay, like, you're like, you're, that sucks that you're anxious about thing A, B, or C, but, you know, not a problem over there. And I couldn't help but think of that, you know, that sort of approach, that presence of mind

when it's like the dude's fading away and falling backwards and still manages to get the old the old teradactal one on it. Okay, so that's the guy who's the captain in Jordan Stahl. So he's got the biggest voice in the room and he sometimes gets the first word, the last word, and could get every word in between when it comes to talking on the bench or intermissions and all those things. And that's what his mindset is like. So if you see your top guy, or, you know, your leader acting like that,

It feels easier or less foreign for you as a player to just kind of hop in and do the same thing and not be overburdened by anything. And if you think about the way this series is gone, Carolina's given up breakaways, left, right and center, two on ones, odd man rushes. Like that doesn't look like the hurricanes, but they're still right there every step of the way. And when those things happen that are maybe uncharacteristic, it can get away from you. It's not getting away from them. And I wonder this now. Like if Carolina cleans up some of these odd man rush things, how does Vegas get the offense?

Like is that their secret now? Or is that their key moving forward to get two more wins? And just it feels like it's self-inflicted from the canes. And we've got to talk about the goaltending because Vegas has had the offense. But it's one thing to have offense against 815. goaltending, which is what Freddie Anderson was giving care a line. And look, I mean, you saw a lot of takes last night saying if the hurricanes had had even average

goaltending in this series, it might already be over. Now, I didn't think Brandon Bussie was great last night. I didn't think he was the story other than he was fine. And you know, you're in the Stanley Cup final. You want your guy to go full Dominic Hasek, Patrick Waugh, Terry Sautchuk, say whatever. you know, whatever name you want to say, but you'll take fine. When you've got a team as good as Carolina, this isn't a team that is built to ride goaltending.

This is, this is a team that is designed to beat you with good enough goaltending. And for the first time in this series last night, they had just good enough. Now, do you guys feel that way or did you, did you see it as a, am I not giving enough credit to the kid here or was? I thought it was good enough. I thought it was totally good enough for, for most. of the game. And I thought when he needed to in the third period, he found a little something extra. Like he makes that big save on Eichel right on the doorstep. And then there's a flurry of action

in the last couple minutes of that game where he was really sharp. And keep in mind, like, if A, Bussie's really young, he's a rookie, and the team he's playing for in Carolina, sometimes the shot total doesn't tell the whole story. Because Vegas gets 21 shots in that game. but what happens is there's two breakaways, there's a bunch of odd man rushes, and it's like nothing's happening, nothing happening until something's happening, and it's frantic,

and you have to be alert. So given those circumstances, I thought he did a pretty bang-up job, and he got better when the game was really on the line in crunch time and Vegas was pressing towards the end. Yeah, we got two Mark Stone. I mean, one was a breakaway. The second one was,

quasi breakaway maybe a breakaway with other with someone else with the puck on his stick no knock on Mark Stone but it's not winning many races

at this point in his career or perhaps any point in his career and bus he stopped one you know he went one for two with Mark Stone in by himself in the first period like that was good enough

I thought there were moments in the first two periods where he was swimming a little bit just like he lost his crease a couple times like it was an adventure in a way that Freddie is not an adventure like it and that's not that it's not that Freddy's certainly not perfect

and has been bad for the most part in this in in the series so far but he's he's struggling in a different way like Bussie was Bessie was an over-eager puppy I think at times, or early in that game. But by the end of it, he locked in.

You know, Carolina had, I think it was seven. They gave up six or seven high danger chances in the third period, a bunch of shots. Bussie steps up and handles business. So midway through the third, I was like, okay, they need to survive this game with Brannan Bussie and then probably go back to Freddie. He was good enough in those close.

minutes where now it's much more of a conversation and it has to be. And Brindamore isn't copying one way or the other on who was going to be. It wasn't biting. I think now you need to give a whole lot more thought to leave and Bussie in. And I'm not sure I, and I'm not sure I, but like after 45 minutes of play last night, I don't, I don't think I was there. I think it It almost has to be, right? I mean, is, is there a debate here? And the other piece of this is Freddie Anderson didn't even dress last night. Healthy scratch, which when you're talking about a backup goalie is not anywhere near the same thing as it would be for a skater.

But basically, they just gave him the full day off. Rod said the goaltender coach told him, Freddie needs a break. So they gave him a break, which kind of implies that you're resting them up to maybe come back. depending on how things won last night. But I would think after a win, it would take a lot of guts for Rod Brindamore to go back to Freddie Anderson in game five. I'm not saying there's no path that we see Freddie again in this series. But for game five, I don't know, Frankie, would you,

is this a decision for you or is it, do you just stick with the guy who just won? No, I feel like you go to Bussie for game five. And depending on what happens there, then you'll make a decision on game six. but if you win game five, Bussie's going in in game six. Like this is not out of the norm for a goaltender to play a little more than maybe you would have expected in a playoff series or take over for another guy, right? Like I think back at when Washington wins and Grubauer starts and Holpey takes over and when Pittsburgh won, it was flurry into Matt Murray.

And when Colorado won, like Pavel Frantsoz had to play games. Like, this is stuff that happens. But it hadn't happened since Washington as far as teams making the decision to switch. That was what Jesse Granger pulled up a couple weeks ago where he was talking about how we haven't seen it since those capitals of a team saying we're going to decide to switch. Not because the guy's injured, not we have to bring a guy in, but we're going to make a decision. And that was, I believe, the whole playoffs long, let alone to do it this, this. late. I mean, I still, I know goaltending is, is maybe the most bizarre position in pro sports, but I mean, Freddie Anderson was the cons my favorite going into this series. If Carolina was

going to win the series, you're like, this is the Freddie Anderson reclamation story. We've gone from that to pulled out of a game to not even in uniform. And we're, uh, and we're on to the underrafted rookie. Like, yeah, think about, think about everything Freddie has had, like, he got he got dinged in the head. He clearly wasn't right after that. He hasn't played well in this series. He just lost his agent, who's been his agent for a long time.

And a lot of players, like myself included, your agent becomes a friend, a mentor, someone you lean on. So he's, you know, he's going through a lot at this moment, so it's understandable that, you know, it would be tough for Freddie to get into the crease. But, you know, I think if you look at last night's game

specifically and Bussie, I think the two-goal lead that Carolina gets out to, it gets lost a little bit in the shuffle in the context of the game, but I think it's huge, huge, because it just gives everyone a little bit of room for that margin of error or that slippage. And it takes the conversation with Vegas from getting back into the game to taking over the game.

And they were working so hard to get back in it, They never, because it's Carolina and they make things hard on you, generally, they could never get over the hump from back into it to taking it over. And so that two-goal lead for me plays a big factor in Bussie being able to dial it in and buys him some time before he gets to the third period. Yeah, man, it was the, it was the Stankovin line. And it was, it wasn't a power play goal officially because it had just expired, but it was, but it was a de facto power play goal, right? it's Eelers to Blake. And that's something that has been, both of those factors have been storylines.

Like, like we've been, you know, again, going back to just hanging out by Taylor Stalls' locker for, by Taylor Hall's locker for Taylor Hall's stall. They're all the same. God, God, Almighty. Taylor Hall's Stallstall. He said, like, this needs to be a statement game for our line.

And that's, and that means helping us get out, get out to a big lead. And it means helping us survive. the second period. Like that's the role that we want to play, like, for this team. And guess what happened, right? Like, that's, that's, that's the way it played out. And to close the loop on the Bussy Anderson thing, too, I, I sincerely think this is a

decision that isn't going to get made until, until after skate tomorrow, truly, because I think that's, I think it had become clear that Freddie was needed a break. Like the, the explosiveness wasn't there. He was just slow in general to get to, to react and slow to get to, you know, get post to post. Like, he looked like a guy who'd played every second of the playoffs until game three of the Stanley Cup finals. So I don't know how you test for that in a morning skate. Like, I think they do a good job generally of knowing when he's at his best and when he needs,

and when he maybe needs a blow. But I get the vibe that that's not something. We're certainly not going to get a decision on it from Rod today publicly or publicly. That's definitely not going to happen. But I don't know that he's going to know privately either until they get a chance to get back out on the ice and see if, you know, 72 hours of rest is enough to get Freddie where he needs to be. I'll say this about Freddie and the decision to do this and say like he needs some rest. At least he's honest and upfront about it and not fooling himself. and not fooling his teammates.

Because that would be worse. Like if the guy is feeling terrible and he just says, like his ego gets in the way and he's like, no, I got to be in the net. Like it's my net. And he goes in there and he has a stinker. It's over. Like it's literally over. They're not coming back from that.

So the fact that he can be honest and say, guys, it's not going to be able to do it, at least that gives them some clarity on their decision making. So going into game five, it'll be the same thing. Freddie either is good or he's not. And you'll know exactly where he stands. And I think that helps you at least make your decision or guide you the right way. Do you get a look at him in game action in game five? And if it seems like he's still a step slow, you take him out.

I feel like that. I don't even think he gets to that point. Like I think Freddie's going to tell you before you even have to look at game action whether he's ready or not, which I think is good. Why put him in there and run the wrist? like he's going to be honest whether it's goofy it's goofy for for us to talk about a player saying yeah i just i need a little bit of rest in the stanley cup final but it's doing the right he's doing he's doing the right thing like he's doing right he goes in there and he's terrible exactly all right game five

it's uh tomorrow that's thursday night in raleigh i'll be making the trek back here after we hang up with each other. So congratulations to me. You can hit a break. We're going to come back. Talk like Babcock. Talk a couple more things. Stick around. All right. We're back. The big off-ice story, I suppose, the big non-cup final story over the last couple of days. Taking the baton from the Dylan Larkin trade request is Michael Babcock, who certainly seems like he's on track to be the coach of the Edmund. and Oilers. Where that stands,

according to C.J. and Pierre, this was a story that went up on Tuesday night. This is where they're at on this. The NHL Players Association informed the Oilers on Tuesday that it still wants a full investigation of what went down to Columbus with Mike Babcock if an NHL team intends to go ahead with hiring the veteran head coach.

The league would run the investigation. The league had not yet heard from the Oilers on how the team wanted to proceed, which is to say the league will only go ahead with the investigation if the Oilers tell the league that they absolutely want to go ahead and hire Babcock. So that decision doesn't seem like it's, you know, fully been made yet. There is something of a hurdle. Obviously, Babcock never got off the ground with Columbus because he acted like a weirdo with players and asked them to show photos from their cell phones when he met all of them.

Frankie will start with you. If this indeed... Do we think he's going to get hired? This is for both you guys. It seems like the trains left the station on this, first off. Okay, put it this way. As much as maybe it looks like they want to hire him and everyone is on board with it,

I can't sit here and say that it's just a formality. They're going to do an investigation. It's not going to be a couple days of just, you know, making it seem like they're, no, they're going to actually do an investigation. And I guess what happens if we don't even know the whole story? Like, what if there's details or things in Columbus that never really saw the light a day? But now they're going to dig around and we're going to be like, oh, it's actually way creepier than we actually thought. And where does that leave this whole thing? You know, my thought on this is, I want to make one thing like crystal clear as much as I had a bad experience playing for him and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

As far as the X's and O's of the game, there's no one smarter. Like, there's no one smarter. The three of us and producer JD could sit in a room with a TV. We'd watch a period of a game. We would learn a ton of stuff. He's so good at that. But that doesn't make him a great coach. there's more to coaching than just dissecting hockey on a video screen.

It's managing personalities. It's managing a bench. It's the day-to-day kind of communication with people. And those are areas, especially the communication with people, where he lacks in a significant, significant way. And there's a difference. Like Edmonton lives in a world where Anaheim and Vegas have made bold decisions. Anaheim hired Joel Quinville, Vegas signed Carter Hart, and they fired Bruce Cassidy with a handful of games left in the regular season, and they brought in John Tortorella. My big message to the Oilers would be there's a difference between being bold and cutthroat and being reckless.

And are you teetering that line of going to the reckless side of things because you see the teams around you being bold and cutthroat? throat and you want to be that too and you're so desperate to win. So we'll see where the investigation goes, but considering the fact that it is an investigation, I don't see it as just a formality at this. Interesting. Yeah. And what's interesting here as well is the league seems to be making it clear that you've got to tell us we're hiring this guy and then we'll do the investigation. We're not going to do it.

we're not going to do an investigation and then give a, you know, a statement on Mike Babcock regardless. So one of the things that's that's so interesting here is whoever hired Mike Babcock, if anyone, was going to take a PR beating, right? I mean, there's going to be a segment of your fan base saying not just we think this is the wrong coach, but this is a bad guy. I don't want to root for a team with this guy driving it. I don't want,

I don't want this to be the way that we win if we do. There's got to be a different direction to go. Now, the Oilers are basically signing up for all of that, and they don't even know that they're going to get their guy. Because, as Frankie says, who knows what they're going to find next? I mean, I think I'm like a lot of people. I've, I, the specifics that we know of as far as only what happened in Columbus, to me, I, I listen to that and I go, that's kind of weird, but I don't know if that's a de facto lifetime ban kind of offense. Correct.

But then you go back and you get the whole story, right? And I would recommend people go to the, go to the athletic, read the piece that the Dan and Katie put together a couple years ago. in 2020. There's a lot of... There's a lot of damning stuff in there. Frankie, you're one of many former players that tells

about your experience there. And it's... And even, like, I get it that you could say, well, I mean, he's going to be on his best behavior. Yeah, maybe. He was supposed to be on his best behavior. He was supposed to be on his best behavior in Columbus.

That was the whole. narrative surrounding him surrounding him then it was like he's learned i i remember that he did an interview with i want to say sports net in like two thousand twenty two so this is before the columbus thing but this is after he had left toronto remember like when he left toronto that's when this stuff really started to come out there was the marner story and then the franzan story came out and he did an interview with sports net in 2022 which is not that long ago and he didn't really seem like a guy who was especially you know especially sorry especially Reflective.

Now, maybe at the time he didn't think he was coming back to the NHL, so he didn't feel the need to put on the act. But I don't know, man. And that's, I'll tell you what, because I also want to talk about just Mike Babcock, the coach, period. But Frankie, like, you, you're not, you're not me sitting on my couch going, oh, here's what I think from a distance.

You lived it. And it wasn't great. One of the smartest hockey people you'll ever meet, but his ego gets in the way. Guys, for Christ's sake, he talks in the third person. Do you know anyone in your life who talks in the third person? Yeah, I know a lot of people. Yeah. You have buddies, like your friends.

They're all really, they're all really cool. They're all really cool people who talk. They're the exact people that you want to see day in and day out and have close personal relationships with. I think that that says enough there, but, you know, this is the thing. I think you have to be careful what you wish for if you're McDavid and company. That was going to be my question to you. Be careful what you wish for. Because Babs has a way of doing things and it's the right way.

Just ask him and he'll tell you. And as much as I think he's a brilliant hockey mind as an ex is an O's guy, that gets in the way. because the days of McDavid and Drysidal playing 26 minutes a night on a Tuesday in the regular season, those will be gone. And all of a sudden now you'll be playing 19 and a half minutes and Trent Frederick or Colton Dock is going to have to play 17. And Drysidle is going to look at that game sheet after the game and say, what the you know what is happening right now? Why is this happening? But guess what? Babs is right and you're wrong.

And it's just that's the way he goes about things. And let me just say this, okay? Because I brought up the name John Tortorella in, you know, being hired in Vegas and I played for Torz. Okay? Played for both these guys. It's different. Dorts is confrontational. He wants to look at you in the eye and tell you what you did wrong, why you did it wrong,

but he's the first guy to come down the bench and tell you when you did something great. But he wants to see how you act when he confronts you. Babs will do everything. he can to avoid confronting you. He'll say, the strength coach said your numbers are down, so you're not playing tonight. But that's a load of, you know what, like it's garbage. He does these little manipulation kind of mind game things. So please do not think that it's the same as John Tortorella because it couldn't be further

different. It's like they decided that they wanted a hardo coach, which is fine and understandable. You want Bruce Cassidy. is, you know, the current, the current king of the hard-o coaches. Fine. There is a difference between that and then a weird, toxic hard-o coach, which is what Mike Babcock is. He's demonstrated it. And year after year after year, this isn't torts, this isn't Bruce Cassidy. This is a person unto himself who combines all the hard-o-cote stuff, which is great and has its place. And people want to, you know, especially if you're the Oilers, there's something to be said for having that kind of personality archetype in the mix.

That's not what Babcock is because it seems like he's such a strange, destructive human being. it's not in for and torts is like the best comparison because like you fine you want to get you guys want to get yelled at that's one thing like that doesn't seem like that's what they're signing up for and that's been that's been part of the undercurrent here is that Connor mac david and leon dry sidel and the oilers leadership group has decided that they want to be coach hard and blah blah blah blah like fine okay like give that a whirl see how it goes i don't think they're betting on the right horse when it comes to them No. And guys, Mike Babcock knows a lot about hockey. He is not a miracle worker. So that team has currently constructed with who they have in net, the pieces they have on the back end, the lack of scoring lower in the lineup, and the lack of maybe role players that, like, look at the teams that are playing in the final today. Like, those are deep lineups, guys that fit certain roles. They don't have that. They're not anywhere close to having that in Edmunds. So as much as he's a smart guy, they're not one Mike Babcock, you know, year of structure away from winning a Stanley Cup. And furthermore to that, you know, I guess this is really being driven by the leadership, the players of the Oilers.

And I'm sure ownership, you know, I'm like they like that is who would be involved in a decision like this, something of this magnitude. Two years ago, it came down to a game seven. And the best player in the world had a chance to do what Tom Brady would do or LeBron James or Michael Jordan or Leonel Messi and have a night on the biggest stage. And you know who had the night? Sam Reinhart and Sergey Bobrovsky. I love it. So maybe maybe. I'm glad you said that.

I'm glad you said that. I'm glad you said that of a MacDavid because I felt like I was going insane during that. series. I'm like, this is what, like, he didn't, he didn't, he didn't play that well. He didn't produce. And it's like, fallen by the way. He's like, he is. He's the greatest hockey player on earth. Those two things can coexist. But he had, he had the moment and it didn't, and it didn't come through for him. So if he thinks that Mike Babcock can yell at the roster enough to push them through in a game seven, then like, like, okay, like, so be it. But it was, it was already there for the taking and it didn't happen. And, and look,

it's it clearly the players are are driving this which is unusual you wouldn't have thought that's how it was going to go with a Mike Babcock return but we're saying the players it's McDavid Drysidal as well it should be those are the only two guys you really care about anybody else has a problem there are ways to fix don't don't underestimate that time in that as well yeah yeah and he's got some connections with with Babcock and through his family and what have you so so maybe that's part of it too but here's the thing McDavid and dry saddle aren't going to be the ones who have to put up with Babcock's crap. They're the stars.

They're already, Mike Babcock is one of those guys from all reports that, you know, he knows who has the power and he can, he can be nice to those people. It's everybody else who's going to have to deal with that. Yeah. The fourth liners, the rookies, the training staff. If only there, if only there are a word, if only there are a word for that, you know someone who who who who who pushes back at people in positions of less power if only there are a word for you know oh bully that's what it is that's what it is bully it's it's so here's

here's my question okay because when this happens assuming it does happen we're going to get all sorts of stuff with mike babcock's didn't do interviews and he's going to say i've learned my lesson i've changed i'm not the same guy the oilers are going to say we did our due diligence which we all know in the sports world means calling around until somebody tells you what you want to hear and then you hang up the phone and you're done. But let's pretend for a second that all of that ends up being true.

There is some Mike Babcock has had, he has changed. He is no longer that guy who for all those years was the bully, the terrible guy that everyone described him as. He's now the kind of, gentler Mike Babcock. Great.

Let's just look at the resume here. This guy hasn't coached since 2019. That's before the pandemic. I don't even remember there being a time before that. Maclin's celebrating when he was 12. Mike Babcock won a playoff series last in 2013. That was the same year the Leafs did the It was 4-1 with Andrew Raycraw. and James Reimer and guys like that.

Like he has, he won a Stanley Cup in 2008. That's, that's 20 years ago. I mean, in 2013, let's just go back to the last time he won a playoff series, that was the year that scoring hit the low of the cap era. Are we sure that this guy who had a ton of success, as long as he had Nicholas Listermore, Sidney Crosby on the roster? And now he's going to have Connor McDavid, so that's great. But are we sure that this is the guy to coach,

a team to a championship in the year of our Lord, 2007, 2008 on the 20 year anniversary at the last time he did it? Are we putting aside all the stuff that we should not put aside? Are we sure this is the guy? Buddy, because you know what it is? It's a Hail Mary.

It's a desperation Hail Mary. And that's where they're at because this is where the pedal, like this is where the pedal has to go to the medal if you're Edmonton. It's like you're either going to win now or you don't know if your top guy is going to be there much longer. And everyone wants to throw whatever they can at it and say, we did everything we possibly could. We went to lengths.

No one was willing to go to. We hired Mike Babcock. But you know what I find funny and DGB? It's all great points. It's so true on so many levels. All I kept hearing out of Edmonton this year was coach doesn't make adjustments. coach slow to adjust. Guys, Mike Babcock doesn't adjust it.

Famously flexible coach, Mike Babcock, yeah. He's famous for being the coach whose ego is so big that he's like, whoever the coach is on the other side. No, Bruce Cass, he's going to have to adjust to me. John Cooper, you got to adjust to me. Like, hello, that's what he's known for, not adjusting. Anyways, I said it. Oh, it's going to be fun.

There's a lot more to say. Yeah. Oh, brother. Good luck. Good luck to all parties. That's what I say, except maybe the one. All right. Frankie, what are you doing this week? Just a little sports center boys. Things are winding down. So it's nice. Just nice to be home. Congratulations. Good for you. You'll be there soon, pal. Thank you, buddy. Talk to you soon. Yeah. All right, we're back. Sean Mackin. Do I feel like you've probably learned something about the N.A. NHL's hottest trade commodity.

Is that, is that right? What have we learned, Sean? Dylan Larkin. What a fun story. I learned, well, first of all, I'll tell you what I didn't learn. I didn't learn to avoid doing something very stupid,

which is I put some thoughts about Dylan Larkin on social media, on Twitter and Blue Sky, and I had that that horrible sinking feeling of realizing that your take is going semi-viral, which means you're going to hear from a lot of people who maybe aren't, aren't familiar with your body of work, let's just say. And that's fine. I mean,

there's two things you can do to make people really mad on social media. Number one, as you well know, is to tell an obvious joke, which will then make people mad that don't realize you're joking and will explain your joke back to you. And that's funny. Yeah, like happened to me a couple days ago, the one I sent to the group chat. The other thing you can do is take any sort of stance that criticizes somebody in the

sports world because everybody's got fans. and everybody, you know, there's somebody who's going to stand up and be like, no, that guy's great. You know, he's my favorite. He's my best friend. I got literally hundreds of replies on my relatively mildish Dylan Larkin criticism. I think I could count on one hand the number that were even fainting towards defending this guy. And this was, to be clear, this was after we got the reports that there were only three teams on the trade list that he, basically wants to either go be with his friend in Minnesota or go to one of the teams that

wins all the Stanley Cups. This is Dylan Larkin saying, hey, I know I'm the hometown kid, I know I'm the captain, I know I'm supposed to be the guy you're building around. I can't do it. It's too hard. I want out. I want to go be the fourth or fifth or sixth most important player on a championship team rather than being the guy in Detroit.

I have maybe never seen this level of just unanimity, whether you're a Detroit fan, whether you're a Minnesota fan who thinks you're going to get the guy, whether you're anybody else in a big market, a small market, original six, new. Everybody is kind of sick of this, hey, I need to just go somewhere else. I don't like it here anymore.

And I mean, look, there have been comparisons made to Mitch Marner and obviously with Marner being in the final and everything that's going to be top of mind Mitch Marner played out his contract in Toronto

whether he had one eye on the door whether you think I will tell you Mitch Marner played every game on that contract he gave his all for every one of those games he didn't pout he didn't sulk you know on the ice at least you know he never gave a half effort

he did everything that he was contractually obligated to do for Toronto and then he said get me out of here. Dylan Larkin, with five years left, to turn around and say, I don't want to be here, but I'm only going to go to the very, very, very, very best spots is unbelievable to me. And I think there is, there's, there's a few things going on. The specifics of the Larkin situation bother a lot of people. The bigger picture of this becoming a league where players can kind of pick. can choose their spots, the fact that they all seem to want to go to the same teams that

are already winning. I think there's a level of frustration in this league that maybe the league doesn't recognize yet. And this is kind of the lightning rod that's bubbling it over. And look, I've said it in multiple places. If I'm Steve Eiserman and I get that list from Dylan Larkin, I don't even pick up the phone. I'm not even saying I'll call these teams and I'll see what. Forget it.

I look at that. I say this is not a list. A list has 10 teams on it. If you want to leave with five years left on your contract, give me a list with double digits. And maybe I'll get to work and see what's out there and see if I can find something that is good enough for me to make this move. And I'm not making any promises, but I'll try.

Three teams. Sorry, buddy. See a training camp. This isn't going to happen. Yeah, see a training camp. And if you don't want to play, the no play. I like that's get ready to learn Detroit buddy. And like I, the, the bummer of this too, with the way Larkin's done this and the route he chose here, is that it's letting Steve Eiserman off the hook for failing to build a playoff team around him over the last 10 years, right?

So I, I don't, I don't want that to get totally lost in the shuffle. like Izerman's, Iserman's done a bad job and that needs to like kind of be tacked on to a lot of these discussions but the specifics of the request,

the way he's gone about it, the teams that are involved are what make this, you know, because the overall vibe generally now, and I think this is a good thing for the most part,

is that we have evolved in our discussion of this sort of stuff where you realize that, you know, player empowerment is generally something to be, to be, to be, uh, to be strived for. Like, that's, that, that's something that we need, that we need to treat is important. And the fact that Dylan Larkin, so quickly and so decisively has emerged as like, it's the asterisk to all of that, right? It's like, yeah, we, like, this is good. It's good that we're moving towards this, but also, like, there's a way to do it in a way not to still.

to some extent. It feels like a parody, doesn't it? Like somebody who was against player empowerment would turn around and be like, oh, this is, oh, so you like player empowerment? Oh, so what like a star player with five years left can just say he wants to go to Vegas or Florida or Minnesota? And you'd be like, well, no, obviously that would not. What we're talking about?

We're talking about, we're talking about to some extent Matthew Kachuk and Quinn Hughes and Mitch Marner, who when they're at the end of their contracts or, or somewhere close to it are like, okay, like, I need to, I need to do what's best for myself and my family. Layers are not property. They're people. So, but, but also, teams have to have to do what's best for the teams. And Steve Eisenman, in a way, is exactly the raw guy to do this to because he's got his, you're not going to want to staring contest with it.

And the other piece of this is, like, you're right. I mean, there's a million criticisms of, of the jobs. Steve Eisenman is done and the Izer plan and it's taken forever and you know I haven't got him in the playoffs and and all of this. And we've we've talked about that on the show. I'm sure we've both written about it and what have you. But also this is not you talk about not building a winner around the guy. This is not Connor McDavid in Edmonton watching Stan Bowman flounder around while Connor McDavid is out there dragging this team and winning awards and all this. Dylan Larkin is a guy who's a pretty good player who for the last few years has absolutely disappeared when it matters most down the stretch. And you go back to those comments last summer when Larkin was asked about the trade deadline and said, well, we didn't get a boost.

And Steve Iserman said, yeah, we expect our star players to be the boost. That's what they're paid for. Yeah, bang on. I mean, that was a bullseye. And maybe that's where the relationship severed irreparably because, uh, because Eisenman said that and went in that direction, but he was right.

Like what is Dylan Larkin done to deserve to be airlifted to his preferred location where he can go win a cup by writing on the coattails of a bunch of better players who've actually done it? Here you know, because he went and was the third line center on a team USA that, that finally won something for the first time and forever. and now he's just owed a winning system, a Stanley Cup, or what a playoff appearance, whatever else,

when he has completely failed to be a part of that in Detroit so far, I don't get it. We've learned, though, I think to some extent, is what I've learned, is that Dylan Larkin is a fairly astute judge of his own talent. We've had this debate for a long time. Red Wings fans used to be on the other side of it. Now they're magically not.

Bill and Larkin knows that he can be the fourth best player on his Stanley Cup team. So, congrats to him for realizing that. The old joke, I wouldn't want to be part of a club that would have me as a member. I don't want to be on a team that would have me as a first-line center is, is, yeah. I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't be the one see you here. Send me to Florida. Yeah, I can't be in this incompetent organization that actually thought Dylan Larkin was good enough to lead the way. He's in the hot dog suit, baby.

Thank you, Sean McIndoo. Did you write today? I do. I've got a quiz that just went up. The old, who did any play for quizzes is back. And we're doing guys who arrived at a team just in time to win a Stanley Cup, not at all influenced by any current. Yeah, I don't know what may you pick that is Wednesday's topic. Interesting.

Thank you, buddy. Thank you, Frankie Carrado. Thank you folks for watching and listening to The Athletic Cocky Show. Prospect Series is tomorrow. Repeat. Prospect Series is tomorrow. We've got Haley and Max on the recap of Game 5 on the final on Friday morning. Enjoy the games, and we'll talk to you real soon.