The Athletic Hockey Show - Hellebuyck bends but doesn't break

Episode Date: May 1, 2025

Jesse and Mark react to the Jets huge Game 5 win over St. Louis, the up and down play of Connor Hellebuyck, and if Brayden Schenn will be suspended for a late hit on Mark Scheifele? The guys discuss the Capitals and the Panthers moving on to the second round, the valuable learning experience for the Habs and the disappointing effort from a Lightning team that many thought would win the Cup. Plus the guys look at the two series they are covering, with Dallas and Vegas aiming to eliminate Colorado and Minnesota on Thursday night.Hosts: Jesse Granger and Mark LazerusExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Jeff Domet Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. All right. Welcome in, everybody, to another episode of The Athletic Hockey Show. It's a special edition on the road edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. I'm Jesse Granger, normally in Vegas. I'm currently in St. Paul, getting ready for game six between the Golden Knights and the Wild. And I'm joined by Mark Lazarus, who is in Denver, getting ready for game six between the Avalanche and the Stars.

How's going, Mark? You know, I'm sitting here looking at your background, and I'm trying to figure out what hotel you're in, because that's like a hobby of mine. It's like, I've been in every hotel in this league so many times. But all those Marriots in St. Paul are relatively new. I don't know them that well. I'm at the double tree. I have, you're not even at a Marriott, my God.

You are, you young Whippersnapper, you do not know how to play this game at all, my man. I feel like, I'm like Connor Hellebuck. I have studied Marriots more than anyone in this world. I hope you pick them better than he's been making the safe so far in the playoffs. I've studied goal-tening extremely high. I probably studied the most out of anyone in this world. So I know I know what to do and how to get my best game. So that's what I'm looking forward to do.

We recorded this late Wednesday night. We just finished watching that St. Louis Blues Winnipeg Jets game. We're going to get into obviously the two series that Mark and I are covering. The game six is coming up. We're going to do that later. And we're also going to talk some awards, three of the awards that the finalists have been announced already. We're going to get into those in the final segment. But we're going to start out with the three games that we just watched today.

And let's start out with Winnipeg and St. Louis. Obviously, the Jets end up getting it done. The offense was there tonight. They end up taking a three-two series lead. The home team is dominating in that series as it shifts back to St. Louis. What are your initial thoughts on what's going on in that series, Mark? You know, I mean, Winnipeg is up three-two. They just played a great game today.

And I have nothing but concerns about them because Connor Hellebuck is playoff. I can't believe that we're having this same conversation for the third straight year. You know, I've been going around the league and, you know, as I'm bouncing around, I'm talking to other writers. I'm like, oh, who'd you vote for this? Who'd you vote for that? We all like to talk about our ballots. And I really think Connor Hellabuck is going to win the heart this year. My very anecdotal thing is a lot of people that I wouldn't expect to vote for a goalie voted for a goalie this year. I certainly did. He deserves it. But I got to remind everybody when that happens. That's a regular season award because he is like the 14th, 15th or

16th best goalie in the playoffs right now. Yeah, I, you know me. I defend him to the death, just like every other goalie, but it's getting harder and harder by the day to defend Connor Hellibuck in the playoffs. I will say that his, I think his team has done him no favors, especially early in the series. I think that, especially with the history, the fact that there is the narrative that he hasn't performed well in the playoffs. And then you start out by the first, I would say two or three games, it was just,

chaos in front of the Winnipeg net. And St. Louis was screening him the same way Colorado did last year when they scored six a night on him. And I think that that just crushed his confidence. And I think that it's been getting like tonight, I thought he played more confidently. I saw him at the top of his crease more often, especially when there was traffic. It seemed like he was, we watched the interview and you alluded to it. I have studied goaltending more than anyone on this planet.

It felt like he was trying to convince himself of that. Like he was just like, yes. He's like, he's trying to buck himself up, which is never a good sign when you're an all-world player in the playoffs, trying to convince yourself you're good. Yes. And I will say, having spoken with Hellebuck and talking to him like in a detailed way that probably most reporters don't in terms of the techniques of goaltending, I can confirm and talking to like coaches and other goalies who have these conversations with him. I am 100% sure he's right on that statement. Like he understands goaltending better than anyone on earth. but for whatever reason, it's not translating onto the ice. And he's starting to make, like early on, I thought that a lot of the goals weren't his fault.

But now I'm starting to see goals that, to me, clearly are his fault. Like the Snuggarood goal, which is a big one in the game, he's just so far off his angle. He was froze by the, like Snuggarood had like a delay and he held the puck for an extra stride and then shot it. And Hellebock just froze. He didn't follow him. He left all that room on the short side. It's just these are these are like Connor Hellebuck has limitations as a goalie. He's not the most athletic guy.

He's not the fastest guy. But the one thing you can always count on is that he's always going to be on his angle. He's always going to be square to the puck. His positioning is elite. And now we're starting to see issues with the positioning, which is really confounding for me. I don't know what's happening. Yeah, it's funny. Like, you know, you immediately go on Twitter and you're doing like a Zapruder film breakdown of why he gave up this goal and all the analysis about what he's on his

and why he's losing his angle. I don't need the PhD. I don't need to have your experience and goal. I don't need to be the guy who's studied goaltending more than anyone else in the world to see. He was just lost on that play. He was out of position. He didn't get over. He had no explosion going to his side.

He just kind of got stuck. It was almost like he just couldn't move. And it was horrible. Like he tried to like, he was like a short stop who didn't get in front of the ball. He just kind of threw his glove at it and did a little bit of an OLA trying to stop it. He just didn't even come close. I mean, that's the kind of stuff you don't expect to see from any NHL goalie, let alone the best NHL goalie, the best goalie in the world.

Connor Hellebuck is the best goaltender on planet Earth. And that was one of the worst goals I've ever seen a goal to give up. Yeah, it's brutal. And yet, they're up three, two in the series. And they, it helps you give up to nine shots through two periods. It is, it is. It is. The Jets have figured out that if we just don't give up any shots, then they can't score.

It doesn't matter how Hellebuck. To his credit, Hellebuck, He had a good solid third period. You know, he had a couple of big back-to-back stops on Cairo, and I think it was Jake Neighbors, right there in the slot. Like, he's not like, you know, just falling all over himself out there. He is able to recover from these, which is the mark of a veteran and a confident good goaltender. But, you know, if they get past this round, which is no gimmy, because they still got to

go to St. Louis now, I mean, if you're getting Dallas or Colorado in the next round, that's a step up in competition. You're playing much higher-end talent on like all three of the top three lines on both of those teams. Or matter which team you're facing, they're going to capitalize on any kind of shakiness in that right now. And if he plays the way he did against St. Louis against Colorado or Dallas, Winnipeg might be getting swept. Yeah. And we also saw Mark Sheffley leave the game with an injury tonight, didn't return.

That's obviously, that would be a huge blow if he can't go in game six as they go to St. Louis. It's, yeah, it's such a weird series. I feel like the, like, just if you're on Twitter and you're reading the narratives from both the blues and the jet side, you'd think the blues are winning this series, but they aren't. They have to win the next two games in a row. And we've yet to see, I believe the home teams won every game in that series, right? That is correct. So, so we'll see if that trend continues and if they can force a game seven.

What do you think? Are we going to see a suspension for Brayden Shen for the hit on Shifley? I mean, in the NHL, Wheel of Justice world, all that matters is if a guy gets injured on a hit. It doesn't matter about the hit itself. And that was a late hit. And it was a little high. And Shifley was injured. Do you think Shen sit in game six?

I would guess yes, because of the injury. If there wasn't an injury, I mean, we saw it with the Tampa, with the Hagle and the Kachukh hits back to back. It was like they were both late. They were both illegal hits. And one injured the guy and one didn't. And we saw the results. So I'm going to go with, I'm going to stick with that precedent. And I'm going to say he does get a game only because Shifeley was hurt on the play.

What do you think? That's one of my least favorite things in the sport of hockey is that we legislate the result of the hit and not the hit itself. Like this is a subjective process to begin with, right? You are putting a, you got a bunch of people in a room in New York or Toronto, looking in that, you know, breaking down the film and evaluating the hit. And then they're making so much of their decision based on whether the guy hit his head on the ice on the way down or twisted his knee on the way down.

The hit itself is almost, you know, inconsequential compared to the result. It's it's not serving its purpose that way. You have to legislate the hit, the intent of the hit, and the technique of the hit, not the result of the hit. But I feel like we've become, it's just about the result. Oh, he's injured. Well, you got to sit too then. And that's just not how we're supposed to be doing this. Yeah, I totally, do you think he gets one now?

I do. No, I certainly do. And it's not unwarranted. I didn't think it was that hard. I mean, it was a late hit. It was interference. I mean, by the definition, the puck wasn't near Shifley anymore, and he got him up high a little bit. It wasn't like some, you know, picking of the head.

It wasn't the 30th thing I've ever seen. It was kind of a standard playoff hit. If Shifley pops back up, nothing probably happens. But this is the way the NHL operates now. It's like, all right, well, eye for an eye. He's out for a game. You're going to be out for a game. Yeah, that's pretty much what we've seen.

And that's the precedent. So I would expect that they stick with it. All right, let's go to these Eastern Conference series. had two teams with chances to close the series out and both got the job done tonight. Let's start with Washington and Montreal. That Canadian's team put up a heck of a fight. I can't remember coming out of a series where a team lost in five games with a more positive outlook on a team. And obviously that has to do with just the age of that team and where they are in their development process. It was certainly a positive step forward for that team. They obviously weren't

good. The capitals were clearly the better team out there. But it was fun watching Montreal all give them a run and the games were closer than the series score ultimately chose. What did you think about that series? Yeah, I don't think the Habs are really all that good. I mean, they kind of like got that eight seed by default and like as the Eastern Conference wildcard team just they were all falling all over each other. But just to get to the playoffs, get a little bit of that taste. This was such a big step for that franchise, probably a year or two ahead of schedule earlier than people thought they would get here. You know, they kind of leapfrogged through the Detroit's and, you know, Buffaloes of the world and kind of in the Eastern Conference hierarchy.

So it gives a lot of hope for other young teams that you can kind of maybe skip a step here and there. Long way to go for that for that team. But, you know, just getting Ivan Demadov in the playoffs, that's useful. Just they lost their goaltender. They didn't really have a chance in this series to begin with. They can hold their heads up high. I'm just bummed out. We're not going to get another game at the Bell Center.

I just wanted at least, well, yeah, I want to Montreal to get at least one more home game out of this just because it's so much fun to watch a game. It's really incredible, like, when you watch, like, a Montreal game and then you watch a Toronto game. And I know it's, like, it's fashionable to just crap all over the Toronto fans. It's not the Toronto fans. It's the arena and the whole situation there and who can afford tickets there. But it is so deathly quiet and boring at, what is it called? Scotia Bank Center these days. I don't know.

They change the names all the time. Then you watch a game at Bell Center, and it's just ballistic from, from puck drop to the final horn. and it's like a European soccer match. And it's just, it's a shame that we can't get every building like that. Because, you know, you cover a game in Carolina, you get to experience that. You cover a game in Montreal, you get to experience that. Winnipeg, you get to experience that. Toronto, the center of the hockey universe does not get to experience that.

Yeah, I think everybody would have liked to have seen another one. And you mentioned Montreal losing their goalie. And that was, to me, that was the end of their chances. And don't give me wrong, Yak, Jakubovic played well. And I thought he was great tonight. He made some huge saves. But he's just not Sam Monash. Tombo. I mean, that it, he, he's one of the most underrated goalies in the league. He, he consistently puts up great statistics, despite playing behind what's been a poor defensive team for several years. He was good again this year. I thought he was one of the biggest reasons that they ended up making that, becoming that eighth seed and then beating out those other teams that were kind of tripping over themselves, like you said, was Montembo. And, and then on the other side, Logan Thompson gets knocked out, comes right back and was just lights out for the capitals. And I will say, as

someone that I've doubted Logan Thompson. Everyone's doubted Logan Thompson. That's the, story of Logan Thompson's life is everyone's doubted. The guy was undrafted. He went to University hockey, U-Sports, Canadian University hockey. Pretty much no one makes the NHL from that point. And he did. And then yet he comes to Vegas. He plays great. He wins H.L. Goalie of the year. He's great in the first three games of the playoffs against Dallas last year. And they benched him for Aden Hill because they don't believe in him. And I don't fault anyone for not believing in him because the guy's technique is so strange and so different. The way he plays the position is so different from every other goal in the league. I don't blame goalie coaches for watching

that and saying, man, he made that save, but I just don't think he's going to make that save every time doing it that way. But he demands a trade or he asks for a trade, gets traded to Washington, has a heck of a season up until that injury. It kind of faded down this stretch. But then he comes in the playoffs and he's just lights out. I, it was really cool for me to watch Logan Thompson kind of prove everybody wrong once more. And, and he's going to have to do it in the next round because you guarantee that everybody's going to be picking Carolina to beat that team. And I, it's, like I said, I think it's just been really fun to watch him live up to, to what he's been telling everybody that he's

this good of a goalie for a long time. And, and now he's finally getting to show it. It's funny. You know, Max Boltman and I have been talking a lot this year about, like, we don't understand the Washington Capitals. How did the Washington Capitals become the top seat in the Eastern Conference? I'm still not entirely certain how it happened, but we're going to spend a lot of the rest of the show talking about stars who have not played like stars. Washington Stars came to play. Alex Oveckin, four goals, had that one right off the face off today, still got that just ridiculous one-timer of his. Dylan Strom, nine points in five games. I'm personally, you get excited for the goalies. I'm excited for Dylan Strom because I was

covering him for Chicago for years, where Jeremy Colleton was just convinced he was like the worst player that ever lived, you know, couldn't play defense, couldn't keep up skating wise, and just kind of was just always so reluctant to play him in the top role. And when he did put him in a top role and he succeeded, the second he had a bad game, he was back in healthy scratch or third line. And, you know, Strome is another player that nobody wanted to believe in, right? And he's just a guy who, he's not fast. He's not particularly good at defense. But he is so good at playing with good players. He elevated Patrickane. He elevated Alex Srebrenkitt. And he elevates Alex Ovechkin. He gets a lot of credit for Ovechkin having this incredible year. He just works. He understands the game at such a high level. He's so smart out there that he's just able to, you know, just play with almost anybody.

He just can adapt his game. And it's so fun to watch him. He's just having the time of his life. I was in D.C. for Ovechkin tying the Gretzky's record for 894. And Strom is just having so much fun there. He talks to the press like every day. He's like the team spokesman now, even though he doesn't have a letter.

He's their top line center. He's a point to game guy. He's just having a blast and he's performing at such a high level. And there's, hey, we all have our biases in this business. And there are guys that you are, you know, I don't care who wins in the end, but I can be happy for a player. And I know all the crap that Dillenstrom went through with, you know, under college and Derek King to an extent in Chicago and in Arizona before that.

And nobody believed in this guy. and everybody always had something negative to say about him. And here he is, you know, arguably the best player on arguably the best team in the conference. And he's got nine points in five games. He's leading Combsmite candidate at this point. It's just I like to see it when guys, like you mentioned Logan Thompson, Dylan Strom, when you see these guys kind of prove people wrong, it's kind of there's a visceral satisfaction that comes with that. For sure.

And along those lines of like your best players having their having a good series. Tom Wilson had about as Tom Wilson of a series as you can possibly have. I mean, he's fighting guys on the bench. He's antagonizing the other, the opponent to no end. And he made some big plays on the ice. Like it wasn't just the crying on the,

like obviously the memes are great. And I love him for that. But he played really good hockey for the, for the capitals as well. And, yeah, like you said, it just seems like their best players are, are showing up. And that's how they don't have the,

if you just line up their roster next to some of these other contending teams, it's clearly not as talented from top to bottom. But if your top guys show up and the other guys, top guys don't show up, you're going to win most times. Yeah. And, you know, it's, it's funny how every year we talk about, you know, how the game is changing and it's becoming more of a speed game. It's going more of a skill game.

And then every year we get to the postseason and it's your Matthew Kachshucks, it's your Tom Wilson, It's your Brady Kachucks. It's your, you know, Sam Ryan, Sam Bennett's. It's these kind of like, you know, the habitual line steppers who also have some skill that proved to be the difference makers year after year after year. Nobody's out there fighting. There hasn't been a single fight in the playoffs this year, but you do need some guys with some snarl to their games to win in the playoffs still. Yep.

And that's a perfect transition to our final series that we're going to talk about that ended today talking about the snarl on one side and the star players not showing. up on the other. Man, was I wrong when I picked the Tampa Bay Lightning to win it all. You and everybody else, the whole athletic staff. Tampa Bay was the number one selection to win the Stanley Cup entering the playoffs. We all thought we were so smart. I had them winning the east and losing to the stars. At least I still have that. But like, every single one of us it seemed was like, oh, I'm going to be the clever one. I'm going to pick Tampa Bay. And we all look stupid. Yep. I'll be just total transparency. I completely bear. the Panthers and Oilers way earlier than I should have.

I watched those two teams having, having just gone to the cup final and they just looked beat up and tired and just done playing hockey for the last month of the season, both Edmonton and Florida. And I picked L.A. in five. I thought the Kings were going to smash the Oilers. And through two games, that pick looked brilliant. And I thought Tampa Bay would handle Florida rather easily.

And I was so wrong. Those two teams have shown up. in a big way and Florida looked awesome. They're doing what Florida does. They go to the front of the net. They win battles there and they have the skill to finish it once they get the puck in those dangerous areas. And Tampa did a pathetic job of defending the net front.

Like I was stunned at how many times there was a player left wide open in front of Andre Vasselowski. And this isn't like a surprise. What are the Florida Panthers going to do? You go into the series, it's like at the most basic level, what are they going to do? They're going to put people in front of the net. They're going to high volume shoot their way to get the puck there. And then they're going to finish.

And that's exactly what they did. And I thought it was way easier that it should have been for them. Yeah. I mean, we all, I think we all underestimated Florida. They went on cruise control for the second half of this year because they're one of those teams that doesn't really matter what their seating is. They don't really worry about home ice advantage. They have proven by now to themselves and to anybody else that they can win in the playoffs.

And we saw this with Chicago 10 years ago. We saw it with Pittsburgh. We saw it with Tampa not that long ago. You know, it is incredibly hard. Nobody wins the third straight cup, right? But those teams can still figure out a way to get through the playoffs. They just know how to do it. You know, Chicago won a cup in that third year after winning the cup in 13

and then going to the conference final in 14. They managed to get through with four defensemen. Tampa Bay got back to it. In Florida here now, they have a chance to do that too. These are championship teams for a reason. And, you know, Tampa's, I worry about Tampa. I wrote this last year after they'd lost. I'm like, they are now staring at the same thing that Pittsburgh and Boston and Chicago stared at, which is oblivion, basically, where, you know, they have no first rounder this year, no first rounder in 2026, no first rounder in 2027.

Scott Wheeler had them 24th in the prospect pool rankings. They just traded two first rounders for Yanni Gord and Oliver Bjork Strand. Bjork Strand didn't play. He was hurt. Yanni Gord had won assist in this series. Like, they have gone for it for so many years in a row. And for good reason, that's what you want to do when you're, when you have. have a championship window, but they're going to have to pay for it sooner than later.

And I think we all thought that it was, you know, turned back the clock time here. It might not be. They're still heading right toward that oblivion. Yeah, I mean, and like the addition of Gensel, I thought extended that window. Like that was part of the reason I liked them so much. And Gensel wasn't the problem in this playoff series. Gensel was the one guy for Tampa that showed up and scored goals. Like it was Kutrov and Point that were just invisible for for the most part in this series.

And I don't know if it's just Florida out work. him. I don't know if it's if Kutrov wasn't, it isn't fully healthy, but he he did not look himself. It's not just the lack of goals. It was the lack of of spark, like the lack of danger. Like it just felt it didn't feel dangerous when he had the puck, which is super rare for Kita Kutjurav. Like usually when you're watching a Tampa game, every time he has the puck, it feels like something bad can happen for the other team. And it just didn't feel that way in this playoff series. And I don't, I don't really know why, but to me that was one of the biggest reasons. that Tampa went out with only one win.

Well, Florida roughed him up. They roughed him up early, and they seem to get him off his game. They got him a little hesitant out there. He was seen genuinely concerned about holding on to the puck too long or something. They got in his head. It's, you know, we're sitting here and we're going to bury Nikita Kuchrov, and he deserves to be buried. He was awful today.

He had two horrible turnovers. One of them led to the game winning goal. He hasn't scored in 15 straight playoff games, which is kind of just a staggering thing to think about, that this is Nikita Kuturov, one of the most gifted offense players we've ever seen. But, I mean, this is a proven playoff before. He had 34 points in the 20 run. He had 32 points in 21.

He had 27 points in 22. Like, this is a guy who knows that are performing in the playoffs. We can't just sit here and label him some kind of like choke artist who can't come up. He's not a Toronto Maple Leaf, right? Like, he knows how to play in the playoffs. But, man, this is like three straight years where he's been invisible. And I don't know how to explain it because regular season, he can seemingly score at will, right?

So I don't know what it is. Other than Florida getting him off his game, I don't know how to explain how a player this good has been this pedestrian at best for three consecutive postseason now. Yep. And based on the history, we can just pencil Florida into the cup final because it seems like when these two teams play,

whoever wins this series is just automatic straight to the cup final. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. It's obviously going to be a tough road. But Florida's looking good. Like I said, I picked Florida to lose in the first round, but having watched this series, I think Florida should be right there at the top of the list in terms of Cup favorites at this point. Well, I feel like Florida, Florida Tampa was the same as Dallas, Colorado.

Like whoever lost those series was not really a first round loser. These are conference final level events. These are huge, huge matchups between absolute Stanley Cup contenders. And it's different, you know, Montreal bowing out in five games. to Washington is a lot different than, you know, Colorado losing in six or seven to Dallas or or Dallas losing in seven to Colorado or, you know, even Tampa losing in five to Florida. Like, they did not have a good performance. Like, this was not impressive.

But the Florida Panthers are the Florida Panthers, which is still, is it still kind of mind-blowing that we're talking about the Florida Panthers as this like unstoppable killing machine juggernaut team franchise that is just like the model franchise. I know it's been a few years now and we all kind of accept it, but it's still. for those of us who have been covering this league for a long time, to talk about the Florida Panthers that way, it's still kind of mind-blowing. What a job Bill Zito has done,

and just kind of, and Paul Maurice has done too, just stabilizing and modernizing and professionalizing that franchise. Yep, for sure. It's been fun to watch. All right, well, you mentioned it, Dallas, Colorado. Let's take a break,

and when we come back, we'll talk about the two series you and I are covering Dallas, Colorado, and Vegas, Minnesota. All right, Mark, so let's start. with your series. You're in Denver right now, getting ready for game six. To me, this has been the most fun series in the first round to watch. The Stars and Avs, they've been, I mean, we've had a couple, not super close games, but for the most part, these have been really competitive. Obviously, I'm looking at the goaltending. Ottinger and Blackwood are playing out of their minds, both of them.

It's been really fun. What's your feel on the series right now is it shifts back to Colorado with the abs needing two wins in a row? Yeah, it's funny. Like, I've been jealous of a lot of the other series because they've more like drama and extracurriculars and suspensions and nastiness and, you know, silliness. And you got, you know, the Battle of Ontario and the potential for a reverse sweep, which would be the funniest thing that's ever happened in the history of the world. If Toronto lost in a reverse sweep in the Battle of Ontario in the first round, this has just been a good old-fashioned hockey series, right?

Like this has just been two really good teams playing really good hockey. Like, even nobody's had any real clunkers. There's been a couple of, you know, games. four and five were a little more on the blowout side. Game four was just dominant by Colorado. Other than Gabe Landiscag coming back, which has been amazing and it feels normal already that Gabe Landiscag is just on the avalanche again. This has just been two Titans playing hockey. It's funny. I did ask, I asked Jared Bedner that today. I'm like, is it already become just normal that Landiscag is walking around? He's like, kind of, yeah. It's just amazing how

fast that happens. Miro Heiskenen, you know, he was in Dallas. today skating with Thomas Harley and rotating in on the power play, I think we're all highly skeptical that he comes back this series, but we've seen crazier things happen. That would be quite a game changer to get Heiskenen back for Dallas, considering how well he shut down some of the Colorado's biggest stars last year. But this is just two good teams going at it, and it's been fun to watch. Yeah, the fact that Dallas is doing this without Heiskenen, without Jason Robertson, like this team on paper, the Dallas, Stars. I mean, the defense is a little thin, especially without Heisken in there. But I mean,

the forward depth is absolutely bonkers. Like, it's unbelievable the depth that they've got it forward. They're missing one of the best players on the planet in Jason Robertson. And it, like, you look at the lineup and there's no holes there. They aren't missing anyone at almost. It's, it's pretty impressive. And then I will say, I think that missing those two stars, I think Pete DeBore is is a difference maker in this series. And you look at his history against Jared Bednar. He's three and O. against him. And he's beat him with three different teams. I mean, Pete beat him when he was with the sharks. He beat the avalanche. Then he came to Vegas, beat him and beat Bednar with the avalanche there,

then went to Dallas and beat him last year. Pete DeBoer, I don't know if he, I don't know if I would go as far as to say he's got your Bednar's number, but I think that Pete DeBore is a difference maker in this series. It's funny too, because he's because he's Pete DeBore and because he always gets fired after a few years, people like enter into the series like, wait off, if he loses this series, he could get fired. And they still, you know, it's, it's still conceivable that if he loses the next two games, he gets fired just because this is hockey and hockey is done like that. But it's true. He's done a masterful job. You know, his, his stars were not performing early in the series. They all broke out in game five, which is huge. But he still kind of kept the team

afloat there. They play such, such a good, just systemic structured hockey. They just frustrate this. The avalanche have so many plays. And the avalanche had this, you know, after adding Brock Nelson and Charlie Coyle and Jack Dury, they have that kind of forward depth now too. But they just can't get it through the neutral zone sometimes because Dallas is just in their way. And it's really frustrating them. And their stars now are the story because Nathan McKinnon is playing fabulous hockey because he's arguably the best player in the world. But Kail McCar has that zero points in the last three games. He has not scored yet in this series.

Brock Nelson has not scored in the series. Marty Natchez has not scored in the series. Jonathan Druent is not scored in the series. And all of a sudden, that pressure that, you know, Miko Ranton was feeling and, you know, all these star stars were feeling is just shifted so dramatically onto Colorado right now. And it's weird to think of, you know, Kail McCarr underperforming. Like, we didn't think that was like a possible thing. Like, it's, it's hard to fathom. And McCar was the best player on the ice in game four.

He's been pretty good. The numbers, the underlying metrics are all still pretty solid. But the puck's not going in. and times a waste. And, man, they are facing elimination on Thursday night. And he's going to get some, he'll get some heat if he doesn't score, if he doesn't produce in this next game. That's the life of being a big star.

Yep. And you mentioned the stars getting going in game five. If you're the Avs, Wyatt Johnston getting two goals after he had been very quiet. That is terrifying because he had been quiet. And Alice is playing well. Yep. And Miko got that. You know he was feeling the burden, especially going up against Colorado,

for him to have a three-point night like that and to get a big goal, just the weight of the world off his shoulders. It's not hard to imagine, like I certainly can imagine, you know, McKinnon and McCar combining for like five goals tomorrow night and, you know, the AFS forcing game seven. That's entirely possible, if not probable. But you can also see Miko Ren and just exploding in game six and just sealing Colorado's fate at the same time.

Yeah, that would be quite the storyline. I mentioned it off the top, the goaltending. To me, this is, I mean, maybe Carolina, New Jersey, Jacob Markstrom was spectacular in defeat. Outside of maybe that series, I would say this Colorado, Dallas series has been the best goaltended from both sides. I've been so impressed with McKenzie Blackwood in his playoff debut. Everybody that listens to the show knows I've been super high on him for a while. I wasn't sure how he would look in the bright lights of the playoffs. Like it's a different, we just talked about Connor Hellebuck. It's a different. an animal and he has risen to the occasion. I feel like he's been even better in the playoffs than he was in the regular season. And he's doing all this. I mean, he's so athletic. He's making these insane saves that no human should ever be able to make. And then meanwhile, 200 feet away, Jake Ottinger has not been in his shadow. I think if anything, Jake Ottinger has been even better.

He's, I thought he was the difference in game five. I thought that the abs probably had the better of the scoring chances. Dallas obviously scored that nine seconds. And it was kind of a one that McKenzie Black would like to have. back and then there was the one that was weird off of his blocker. But Jake Ottinger was just rock solid in there. And the one thing I noticed about Jake Ottinger watching him, he's obviously, he's young, but he's already had so many playoff series under his belt.

And the thing I always noticed is he gets better as the series goes on. Like last year against Vegas, he had a couple, two games rough to start. I remember Vegas was up to two nothing after two games last year in the first round. And Ottinger was not playing well. but game three he gets a little better game four he gets a little better by the time he gets to game seven they can't score on him so i think that the stars are in great shape for all the reasons we've went over but another one on top of that is just jake ottinger continues to get better the more he sees he's such a cerebral goalie kind of like hellabuck he's not the most athletic guy but he reads the play really well and i just think that playing against the same opponent over and over and over

and watching the same players and the same system happening unfolding in front of him, he just continues to get better and he's doing it again this year. Yeah, his teammates say that too. They talk about how they notice that he gets better and more confident. I've been impressed by just how chill a guy he is. Like he's one of the few goalies left in the NHL that will talk on game days. Like he's like, yeah, of course, why wouldn't I talk? Like he's not in his own head.

He's very comfortable. He's very confident. He just doesn't seem phased by any of this. And he's certainly gotten more playoff experience than just about anybody at his has. I will say your your advocacy for McKenzie Blackwood at the beginning of the season on our podcast week after week, you were the one who said Colorado should get him. That makes you look a lot smarter than your Andre Vasselisky's best hockey is right ahead of him on that you wrote just before this postseason. I just want to say win some. Yeah. I will say the goalie beat in

terms of predicting the future, the goalie beat is a tough one, man. I'm telling you, it is it is not easy. Just ask every GM in the league. It is not easy. easy to predict. Yeah. Well, the good thing is, whatever you're right, we just have to, we have to agree with you because none of us understands it. Right. I'll take the wins when I can get them. Speaking of teams getting better as the series goes on, let's switch to this other Western Conference series that's been equally entertaining.

The one I'm covering Vegas in Minnesota. I thought game five was the first time the Golden Knights have looked good. And it's crazy to say that if they're up three, two in the series. but I thought the first four games, they did not look themselves. And they found ways to scratch and claw some wins out despite not playing their game. In game five, I thought Jack Eichel looked himself for the first time. Mark Stone got going. William Carlson got his first goal.

Similarly to how I was saying for if you're the abs, this is worrisome that the stars are getting going. If I'm Minnesota, I am very worried right now that the Vegas goldenites are finally looking like themselves. and they only need one out of the next two to close this one out. What have you thought of this series from afar? I've just been just so, the thing about this series to me that stands out is like, what could have been for the Minnesota Wild this year? Remember how good they were at the start of the season?

They were running for the president's trophy. Carrillo Caprizov was going to win the heart. And then Caprizov got hurt. It just all like, it makes you almost want to redo your heart ballot and just put them up. He's clearly the most valuable player in the NHL. He just didn't play any of the season, which his absence, underscored just how valuable he is, just how much more dangerous he makes this team, how much more confident he makes this team.

Like, when the wild have Caprisov, they feel they can beat anybody. When they don't, they don't feel like they can beat anybody. It's clear in the way they play. And for them to be able to walk up to Vegas and just punch him in the mouth like this, it's been really impressive. Like, and it is a sign that, you know, I remember early in the season saying how happy I was from Minnesota that they finally had a good and exciting team after years of just knowing their team was going to make it to the playoffs and lose in the first round,

year after year after year. And then it looked like it was going to happen again. They almost missed the playoffs. Like they were almost in danger of falling out entirely late in the season. And so I don't know if they're going to win the series, but it's been really cool to see them, you know, kind of return to what we saw from them in October and November and December this year. Vegas, I don't know.

I mean, Jack Eichel, it was, what, minus six and Dorafeu is minus five. Like, they dug themselves a hole. with the way they were playing early, but they're so good and they're so deep and they're so talented and they're so experienced that you're still kind of just, there's an inevitability about them almost. Yes. It's been a really intriguing series because you have like this kind of

excitement factor in Minnesota, which is not two words that usually go in the same sentence, and this inevitability of Vegas. And it's been, it's been a fun matchup. Like, I don't think anybody had this one circled as like, oh, this is the matchup to watch. But it's been arguably the most interesting series we've had. Yeah, for sure. And Caprisov's been brilliant and Boldy has been just as good. And those two, it's the way I watch, like to me, the way these games go is Vegas controls 90% of the play. Like they carry the play 90% of time. But Caprisov and Boldy only need 10% to score three times. Because that's every time the puck's on their stick, it's like a dangerous chance the other way. It's amazing how much they can do with with so little of the possession because it really does.

feel like Vegas has had the possession advantage in a big way, even in the games that they weren't playing particularly well. You mentioned what could have been for Minnesota. I feel like this series is just that all over again. You look back to game four up here in Minnesota. They went into the third period with a lead, and they were up to one in the series. And if they just hold on and close that game out, it's 3-1 and you're sitting pretty. But they don't get it done. They end up giving up the goal. It goes to overtime. Vegas wins in overtime. Then they come down to Vegas and they should have had a three two series lead. Ryan Hartman scores with it 15 left and the double review. I can't think of a more brutal way.

I feel so bad for Minnesota fans, despite the fact that they complain about the refs more than any fan base I've ever heard of my life. And I'm sure they're going to come after me. But despite that, I still, I still feel there. There's a serious persecution complex up in Minnesota. I've learned that over the years. I still feel horrible for him because I can't think of a worse way to lose a playoff game that big in terms of a game five. Yeah. In a two series tie,

it's like you get that goal, the jubilation of getting that goal. Then they're like, oh, we're going to review it. And you're like, oh, God,

here we go. And then the ref comes out and announces, good goal. It wasn't a kicking motion. You get to celebrate again. You're celebrating the same goal again. Then they review it a second time and call it back. because it was offside. It was the correct call. Gustav Nyquist was in before the puck was.

It's brutal. It was the right call, but it's brutal. It's absolutely brutal. And then Brett Howden wins it in overtime for the Golden Knights. Back to back overtime games for the Golden Knights. And to me, as this series shifts to Minnesota, I'm very, very interested to see if Vegas, because we mentioned how bad Jack Eichael, not bad, but how unproductive Jack Eichael had been over the first four games of the series. Game five, suddenly he looks amazing. He was best player on the ice for most of the game. And that coincided with Bruce Cassidy putting William Carlson, who has played center his entire life. William Carlson has 455 games for the Golden Knights, and he's played center 445 of them, 10 games on the wing. And in the middle of a playoff series, Bruce Cassidy, and he's never played on the wing for Bruce Cassidy in three years. And in the middle of a playoff series, he just throws him on the wing up there with Jack Eichel. It was a bold move, but it worked to perfection because Carlson and Eichel are Vegas's two best skating.

and they're their two best defensive forwards. And he put them on a hard matchup on that Caprisov-Boldy line. And they shut them down as well as you can shut those guys down. But that was in Vegas where Cassidy has the matchups and he can control that. Now all of a sudden they're coming up to Minnesota where John Hines can get away from that. We asked Bruce Cassidy if he's going to keep that line the way it was. And he said yes, but we were willing to get out of that quickly if we have to, if we're not getting the matchups we need if it's not working.

So I think that being at home really, really, really, helped Cassidy be able to execute that. It was a brilliant move, but he needed the last change to be able to do it. I'm fascinated to see if Iichael and Carlson look just as good up here, not being able to dictate the matchups the way they were at home. Yeah. And there's something about, I don't know, all the years I've been covering the playoffs, game sixes are the hardest for me to predict.

There's such an, like, like, like for the series I'm covering, I can easily see Dallas just going out and just crush it. tomorrow on Thursday night and just winning the series. But if Colorado wins, which they probably should, it's a home game, you know, they've got everything going for them. It almost feels like, well, now, you know, it's, of course they're going to win game seven if they win game six, the momentum narrative. And, you know, it doesn't matter if we believe in momentum because players do.

It's like there's such an unpredictability of this, the desperation factor. How does a team respond to that? Some teams play their best hockey when their backs against the wall. Some teams crumble. We've seen it over and over again. So I have absolutely no idea what to expect in your game. I got absolutely no idea what to expect in my game. And that's what makes this so good.

And clearly the Western Conference is better because the East was boring as hell other than the greatest thing that could ever happen, which is a reverse sweep in the Battle of Ontario. Yeah, I was going to say, I don't know what the hell is going to happen is the entire Western Conference. That is what is going to happen in all these series wild. Yeah, it's great. At the beginning of the year, we said there's like five or six teams that can win the Cup.

And we were right. Like, it's just chaos out here. best. It is. And for that game six, the news today, they do expect Philip Gustafson to be back in net. We got Mark Andre Fleury one more time in Vegas. That was a lot of fun. The fans chanted Flurry, which I was stunned by and like, trust me, nobody understands the love for Mark Andre Fleury more than me, but it was a playoff game and the fans were chanting for the opposing goal. He was wild. Literally no other player in the league that that would happen to. Literally, not a single human being in the league other than Mark Andre Fleury gets that response.

Yeah, it was pretty cool. And that was like the Mark Andre Fleury getting a surprise extra playoff game was like the third craziest thing that happened in that game. Stanley Cup playoffs. It just doesn't get everyone's getting all this cool stuff. We had Landiscai come back, which I guess is a, but like that felt like it was going to happen. Like you guys, every other series has something weird happening. And we're just, we're just playing hockey here in Denver Dallas. Yeah.

All right. Well, let's let's take one more break and then we'll come back and talk about some of these NHL awards that the finalists have been announced for. We're going to finish it up with. these awards, they've, they announced them kind of periodically. They give us the finalists. And so far, we've gotten the finalists for the Norris, obviously best defensemen, the Vezina and the Ted Lindsay. Let's start with the Norris. Kail McCar, Quinn Hughes, Zach Werenski, no real surprises there. It's going to be, obviously, Macar is the heavy, heavy favorite when you look at the betting, but these, all three of these guys were just brilliant this year.

Yeah, it's a shame. I think it might be very close to unanimous for Macar. I mean, he had a 30-goal season, the first one since, what, 08-08, 0. but if Queen Hughes doesn't get hurt, his numbers early in the season were so spectacular. I've never seen a more, I've never seen a player more, you know, have more control over the course of a game than Queen Hughes did in Vancouver.

He would have been probably the favorite, even with McCarigan 30. And if the Blue Jackets had just made the playoffs, Werenstke was so good this year. And he kind of had that, we love it when a guy takes that next step and becomes a superstar. Zach Werenck Werenck became a superstar this year.

I feel like if circumstances have been slightly different, this could have been one of the best Norris races we've ever seen between those three guys. But instead, it's going to be Cal McCar and a walk. And obviously, he deserves it the guys, the closest thing we've ever seen to Bobby Orr, since Bobby Orr. Yeah, I totally agree. The Hughes McCar, if Hughes had stayed healthy, it would have been the, that would have been the only award any of us talked about for weeks. Yeah. In terms of the awards, because it would have just been, like, and I think Hughes probably would have, would have came out on top if he had, assuming he had continued. his pace. The amount of phone calls I would have fielded from Peter Ball to talk about his

ballot if it was, if Queen Hughes had played all. I wouldn't have talked to my wife for a week. Is he, is he asking you for, are you guys just talking to him over? A lot of us do. A lot of us do that, but you know, a lot of us stress a lot about these awards and it's, it's good to talk it out with other writers. It is, it is. All right. Another one that is probably going to be unanimous, the Vezina, Connor, Andre Vasselowski, and Darcy Kemper. A little bit of surprise, him sneaking in there. I don't think many people would have picked that at the beginning of the year, him being a Vesna finalist. Connor Hellebuck is currently minus 20,000 to win the Vesna, meaning a $20,000 bet wins you $100. So he's going to win it. He's going to be the first

goalie since Patrick Waugh, Dominic, and Marty Berto, are the only goalie. A lot of along with those three to win it three times and to win it in back-to-back years since the award became a voting award. Obviously, they changed it. It used to be what the Jennings is now. But since they made it, and I think it was 81, they changed it to voting. Only three goalies have won at three times. And they're the Mount Rushmore of goalies. So we spent the first half of the show, just dunking on Connor Hellebuck. But man, is he, is he the goalie of this generation? It's a regular season awards. Yes. I'll say, but it's good to see that it's good to see that, the GMs have graduated from just giving to the most wins to the best save percentage, at least,

that's some progress. Because it's, you know, like the year that leads, they just give it to the wins. It's like, you know, giving the Cy Young to the pitcher with the most wins, which is just not a good stat. But this year, at least they graduated to save percentage. Those are the top three guys in terms of save percentage, which is how Darcy Camper got into it. I don't know how much, you know, I know how much the writers, everyone makes fun of the writers

and doesn't think we should do anything. But I know how much the writers, we sweat over this stuff. And we think about it for so long and spend so much time and do such deep guys and talk to so many people. I don't know if the GMs and the broadcasters are doing that when they're making their picks for the Jack Adams is the broadcasters and the Vesna is the GMs. But at least it's a little bit of progress this year. Now the next step is getting them to go on top three goals saved above expected. That is my mission. He wasn't top three and goals saved above expected, but Lucas Dostall should have been the third finalist in my opinion.

He was absolutely brilliant behind a train wreck in Anaheim, and I think we need to reward good goalies behind bad teams more than we do. But it is cool to see Darcy Kemper. That's the one I want to talk about because to me, Vasilevsky and Hellebuck, it's old hat. That's what these guys do. They're going to do it next year, probably the same thing. That's the two best goalies in the world. But Darcy Kemper, back from the dead. I mean, this guy wins a cup in Colorado, gets the big contract to go to Washington, and it did not go well for the capitals.

he goes back to L.A. He had a short stint in L.A. earlier in his career. He reunites with Bill Ranford, who to me is one of the best goalie coaches in the NHL. And I think the combination of that with playing behind a structured team in L.A. that I think nobody makes it easier on their goalie than the L.A. Kings do. But you still have to make the saves. And Darcy Kemper was great this year. He's still super athletic.

Like he's an older goalie, but when you watch him, he doesn't look like an older goalie. He's flying all over the place. He was a lot of fun to watch. So it was cool to see him. Even though I wouldn't have had Kemper on my ballot, he's a deserving, like he said, top three and save percentage. And he had a great comeback here. All right.

I do think that's partly a, you kind of alluded to it. But playing behind the Kings is a lot different than playing by in almost any other team in this league. I do think that that should be a factor that's, if I were picking the Vezna, the Darcy Kemper would not be on there because of the Kings factor. Like he's playing, like the way you should. play behind the Kings. He's not ruining it. He's doing his job. But I think you could put, I don't know what, 70% of goalies in the league behind the Kings and they would have like a 915 or higher. Yeah, I mean, we saw it with like Corpusallo, went from Columbus to there and he was

brilliant. And then the senators were like, give him all the money. And then all of a sudden, we saw what he looks like. Yeah. Yeah. And then, so then the Kings are like, all right, Corpus all go ahead. We can find someone else. We'll just bring in Cam Talbot. And Cam Talbot had the best season of his career behind L.A. goes to Minnesota. It's not the same in Detroit. He was okay this year, but he was not nearly what he was. And now Kemper's doing it.

Yes, there is a trend here. And it was the same for Colorado, like back when Grubauer won and Seattle gave him the bag. And I was standing here like, I don't know, man. I think any goal they would have looked good behind that Colorado team. And it turned out that that contract was a disaster. So, yes, I agree with you. Darcy Kemper is partially.

product of playing behind the Kings, but he still had a good year. To me, the Ted Lindsay one is interesting because it's the only one voted on by the players. And I think it gives us a window into how NHL players feel. And I think it's fascinating that the three finalists are Kail Makar, Nikita Kutrov and Nathan McKinnon, and we've got a center, we've got a winger, and we've got a defenseman, and they're the best in the world. Which position is going to reign supreme? I mean, this is almost a question because these three are so clear. like the best at their position like Nathan McKinnon you can argue with McDavid and there's a million good centers but this year Nathan McKinnon was the best center in the league I kind of look at this

as what do the players in the NHL like value almost like is the number one defenseman in Kail McCar more important than the best center in Nathan McKinna I don't know it's it's an interesting dynamic to see how the players vote for this yeah do you go just by points with Kuturoff do you go by all around game with with McKinnon or do you go with the best defenseman on the planet in McCar I thought it was interesting they left out Leon Drysidal, I thought like he easily should have been in this conversation. They did not give any love to Connor Hellabuck. I mean, I think you could give the Ted Lindsay to a goalie, right? There's no rule against it. I don't think there's any problem

with that. Here's where I'm going to get myself in trouble. Because I do not know more about hockey than a player does. They understand the game at a higher level than I do. I'm not stupid. I understand that. But I guarantee you, I watch more hockey than your average hockey player does. Like I wrote a story about this a few years ago. I went around, I talked to the best players in the world. I'm like, do you watch hockey on your days off and how do you watch it? And most of them are like, I try to get away from hockey. I don't want to like. There are hockey nerd.

There's your Patrick Keynes and, you know, players like that who just near your Dylan Stromes who just watch hockey every night and sit there and just texting their buddies about it. But a lot of these guys don't watch a lot of games. So, you know, it is obviously, it carries more weight as a player when your peers vote for you. But I'm wondering how much of Nikita Kuturov are these guys watching? How much does a Western conference player see?

of Nikita Kuturov and vice versa. How much as an Eastern conference player you actually see about Kail McCar or they see, wow, defenseman, 30 goals. If they go to NHL.com slash stats like the rest of us do and go, wow, that guy's pretty good. I don't know. But I do know that a lot of hockey players

don't watch a lot of hockey. To me, it's interesting because I think it's a good, because the Lindsay and the heart are the same award, essentially. It's just different voters. They're not. They're not. One's valuable, one's outstanding. a huge difference. Okay, okay, okay. But it's, but it's typically the best player wins them both. Like, whoever played the best, whoever had the best season wins them both. Because if we were

going off most valuable, then it would be a goalie every year. Sorry, I couldn't, I couldn't resist. Got to say on brand. But to me, it's very interesting because it's, I agree with you. They probably don't watch as much hockey as we do. I think that the way they've, and like, when you said, like, do they go look at the stats, that would be interesting because I know. never thought of it that way. I always think of it as the Lindsay Award is a very like anecdotal voting. Like, yeah, like they don't watch Nikita Kutrov every single night and watch how good he is, but they know what it feels like to have Nikita Kuturov skating towards them and them having to defend it. And to me, it's like, well, as a defense, like, if you ask all the defensemen,

who's the best forward? Well, they all have to stop these guys. Who are you the most afraid of? Who is the most? Who is the one that strikes fear in you the most when you see them coming down the half wall, that's like, it's very anecdotal in terms of like, and let's not forget that these guys, these guys have friends on every team and they talk about these things, right? Like, just like we're calling each other and saying, hey, who do you have on your Norris ballot? I bet you these guys are saying, hey, who do you have on your Lindsay? I bet you that's a topic of conversation that comes up. Or they're just having a beer with a friend and when they're in the visiting city the night before a game and they're

like, oh my God, I had to play freaking McKinnon last night. Just turn me inside out, made me look like an asshole, you know? Like, I'm sure that, like, you talk about an anecdotal award. I bet you that is really how they come to these conclusions is just casual discussions with their peers and their own two games a year against these guys. It is a fascinating. You'll never get, like, honest discussion from players about how they come to these ballots. But it is, and it will always be an award that means more to the players than, you know,

a schlubby writer's coming up with votes. I get that. But it is a very different process, I think, to get to the point. It is. It's cool. I like it. I like it. It's a little variety in the awards. Cool. Well, thanks for joining me, Las. It's a late night. We both stayed up, watched some hockey, and it's currently 1227 where I'm at. So thanks everybody for listening. Trust me. I've been a West Coaster my whole life. Best Coast is the West Coast. But thanks for joining me. And thanks everybody for listening to the Athletic Hockey Show. The Prospect Series has the next The Athletic Hockey Show. The Prospect Series has the next The Athletic Hockey Show from the men's U-18s in Texas, Friday on the Athletic Podcast Network.