The Athletic Hockey Show - How To Fix: Vancouver Canucks

Episode Date: July 29, 2026

The Vancouver Canucks are in full rebuild mode, from the front office down to drafting Caleb Malhotra third overall. With the Quinn Hughes era now over, Thomas Drance joins Sean Gentille to discuss the Sedin twins, Ryan Johnston and Manny Malhotra instilling some order to the chaotic Canucks, the trade value of Elias Pettersson, Brock Boeser and Filip Hronek, if goalie Thatcher Demko can rebound from the injuries that have stalled his career and what a successful season in Vancouver would look like for Marco Rossi, Zeev Buium, the Canucks, and their rabid fans. Host: Sean GentilleWith: Thomas DranceExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Jeff DometWatch full episodes on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowJoin our Discord Server: https://discord.gg/VTm9VjkFSubscribe to The Athletic: https://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. What up, it up is the athletic hockey show. I am Sean Jintzili with another edition of how to fix. This is our summer series where we check in on some of the more underachieving teams in the NHL. That's maybe how we'll phrase this. These are the teams who are either trying to get back in the playoff

conversation or get even farther out of it, which I think is what applies to the Vancouver Canucks. We got Drans here, our buddy Thomas, to talk about the team he covers and covers very well in Vancouver. Here's how we'll start. The connects were dead last in the Pacific Division last year and the NHL, 58 points. That led us some wholesale changes. We know that the Siddins are in.

We know that Ryan Johnson is the new general manager. We know that Manny Malhotra is the new head coach. And they got this luck, Manny's son, Caleb, third overall, which is nice, I suppose. Drancer, let's frame it this way. On a scale 1 to 10, how has the first off season of an actual honest to God rebuild gone in Vancouver this far? Given what they're trying to do, which is something that they haven't honestly and truly try to do in quite a while. Where are we on the sliding scale? You know, the folks that have heard me talk about the Vancouver Canucks who read my coverage will not be supposed.

surprised to hear that I think it's a little bit mixed. And I'm not going to do the classic waffling sports talk thing of like, well, both things can be true. No, like, it's too soon to know exactly how this is going to turn out or how sage this team's moves are. But I think you can see reason for optimism and I think you can see significant reason for concern. I think those are just two honest things that have been undercurrents as the Canucks have gone about. remaking themselves in a more rebuilding image this offseason. So on the positive side of the ledger, let's start with that. The twins and Ryan Johnson have come in and talked about community.

They've talked about sort of the bones of how they want this franchise to carry itself. And they've, I think, been credible in discussing this idea of having a way that they want to do things that is true to sort of the culture of the golden era of Canucks teams, which of course Henrik and Daniel Sidene were faces of, like these sort of standard bearers of that era, in terms of how they want this team to engage with the community, what they expect of players on that score, you know, how the team treats and handles media obligations, how this team carries itself, protects information, how players find out about things. I mean, you can see the bones of how this team wants to carry itself

in a more credible way. These gentlemen are credible in terms of how they communicate that. And they've been talking about patience and sort of the idea of doing a diligent, full, blown, gradual accumulation phase rebuild,

which obviously this franchise is needed for a long time. And they've made moves that fit with that direction. So that's the positive side of the ledger. Let's, but I don't mean interrupt. before we get into the, before we get into the, like, the next phase of, you know, our discussion here, you've talked a lot about the community aspect of things. You've talked a lot about the cultural end of things that they've, that the new regime, you know, has come in and done the, and done the right stuff to get the train back on the tracks in that regard. I, I, how far off was it before? Because I, I think, you know, there are people out here who were asking the question

Fairly, who aren't as steeped in Canucks, you know, lore as you are. Like, what kind of, what kind of cultural problems were we talking about that Johnson and the Cedians had to come in and come in and fix? How bad did it get on that end of things? I think pretty bad. You know, we're talking about a team that traded, you know, that had a public rift between two star centermen.

One of those star centermen took, you know, three weeks off for undisclosed personal reasons. They never entered the NHLPA program. I'm talking, of course, about J.T. Miller, right? They just were sort of away from the team for 10 games and then were traded. You know, that spring, the following spring, the club extended basically all of Quinn Hughes's friends, traded for a Vander Kaine. Right. And then, and then Quinn Hughes was moping in the first two months of the year, precipitating him being dealt.

So this team traded a star center and a franchise to. defenseman within 12 months, you know, one of whom you could just tell was wearing it, right? I mean, described, and of course, he described the locker room environment as fractured to the athletic when we caught up with him ahead of his first game against the Canucks. Correct. That's from Quinn Hughes, fractured, right? That's not me. That's not me editorializing.

That's from the principal, from the guy who was living it and was like, I can't do this anymore, right? this isn't working for me. And by the way, you can see the joy that he played with at the Olympics and with Minnesota, and it looked totally different than what we saw in the first half of the year, or the first 34 games of the year, whatever he played in his final season with the Vancouver Canucks. I mean, it looked totally different. It looked like a guy who'd had the weight of the world lifted from his shoulders. You know, as much as he's criticized roundly in Vancouver for a variety of reasons,

you know, mostly stemming from, you know, the fact that he requested a trade and then beat Canada at the Olympics. Yeah, that goes with, that goes with the territory on that. And that goes, you know, so, you're not going to be particularly beloved in Vancouver after after that set of circumstances unfolds. Absolutely not. But, you know, I mean, as much as fans were upset with him about how it went down and, you know, the way that he looked when he was playing his final games in a Vancouver Canucks Jersey, which was not frequently, like not as frequently engaged and passionate as Quinn Hughes

usually has been throughout his, you know, hockey playing life. It was hard not to be happy for him. Like, it was hard not to be happy for him watching him play in the playoffs against Dallas and seeing a guy who was able to just sort of play his game. By the end of the season, by the way, you had like, Evander Kane hit his 1,000th game. They didn't play him again. He played for his 1,001 game at which he was, you know, given a stick ahead of a pregame ceremony. Evander Kane, probably the least popular Vancouver Canucks player of my lifetime in his hometown, after which he was never seen from again. He conducted an exit meeting before the end of the season and just left.

Like, this is the sort of stuff that was happening with the Vancouver Canucks. Star players wanting out. Star players taking unexplained leaves of absence. star players being told to just leave the team after we celebrate your 1,000th game milestone, franchise defensemen asking out, and then some of the franchise defensemen super friends who were extended in a bid to keep him were then summarily agitating for trades ahead of the deadline. I mean, the extent... Other than that, everything was going well.

The extent of the dysfunction was through the roof. And by the end of the season, you started to have little signs of progress from this group of players. Like, you know, I think a group of veteran players with the team, Heronic, Brock Besser, Teddy Bluger, Kevin Lankan, kind of like got together. I think you had a different bit of a vibe shift as guys like Zeebueh, some of the younger players who really do carry themselves impressively, began to sort of assert their own personalities a little bit more in a cleaned out locker room. And, you know, I mean, you did get to a stretch at the end of the season where, hey, they were still going to lose, but at least the effort level

wasn't hit and miss night to night, which is what we'd seen, right? I mean, this was not a team that, like, sometimes showed up to the rank and looked good and sometimes showed up to the rank and was playing with half of their ass. Like, half-assed efforts was, like, too nice for what we sometimes saw from this group of players. You know, a-you-can-asked, maybe... Is a whole-assed effort? I would like a whole-ass effort, and if we were getting a sliver, of an ass on some nights. Like, you could have, you could have fooled me. So, I mean, you at least saw this team begin to play hard night to night. You at least saw players begin to stand up for one another down the stretch of last season. So you hope that perhaps the team can turn the page on this.

Certainly, you know, I think the twins and Ryan Johnson, when they talk about their vision for what they want guys to experience when they walk in there and how the culture of this team will work, especially given what we saw Ryan Johnson build in Abbotsford, right? And it was a really interesting dynamic that he oversaw there where there was like a raw honesty to it. Like part of the Abbotsford-Kinnock's sort of cultural ethos as it were was, yeah, we also think you're too good to be here. So work with us to get you out.

Like there was like an honesty of communication with everybody. Like you think you're too good for this. We think you're too good for this. So let's work together. and we'll win and you'll win if we all sort of buy into the same thing. And, you know, I'll get an NHLGM job and you'll get a chance to play in the show. And, you know, you'll get a one-way contract and we'll get playoff revenue. And there was like an honesty of that communication. So, and certainly, you know, we all know what the twins are about. So, I mean, I actually do think

they're credible messengers. When they come in and they say, we're going to change the culture of this team, I actually believe it. It's reason to believe it. Of course, the problem is, right, is culture can only take you so far. far. Like, I don't think you can develop yourself, player development yourself out of the mess that the Knucks have created because it's not just an off-ice cultural issue. It's also, you know, this team has nothing of value. Right. Like, there's nothing here. There's no premium prospects. There's no, I mean, Cala Malhotra now would be one. But like, that's it, right? And even then, the scoring profile is not what we typically see for a player drafted in the top five of the

NHL draft. So there's years of work to do just to accumulate enough baseline of talent that, you know, the work ethic night to night in the NHL, that should be non-negotiable. The fact that we're starting there, you know, and that it's also insufficient on its own, I think speaks volumes of sort of the length of time that this team, like the amount of time it's going to take for this team to actually get back on track in a more meaningful way. All right. You said they had nothing. Let's start talking about that nothing. We'll start with a defense. This is how we're going to structure this.

Sure. They bring an Alexiac and Luke Shen. Those are, you know, flippable deadline assets, I suppose, and quality human beings. I think that's probably the fairest way to characterize those guys.

We can move on from that. The, where it starts is with Booiam and Villander, right? Like, these are, Those are the guys who, out of this group, we'll talk about Philipronic in a second, but out of this group, those are the two guys who most clearly profile as being, you know,

potential pieces on the next good Vancouver Canucks team. The seasons were somewhat uneven. I know it was, William, you know, finished strong in particular, I guess Villander was maybe, maybe graded out a little better over the course of the entire season. You know, we saw Flash as to some degree. Yes, that's the right way to have been. Not a ton, and I'm wondering how much of that was due to the Adam Foot experience, because I know this is something you talked about at length.

Like, what did we see from Booiam last year in particular, and how were those guys, like what's the next step for both of them? I guess is the question. It's really hard to judge the talent that was on this roster last season because this team frequently didn't know what, didn't look like they knew what they were doing, Sean. To be totally honest with you. Sure. You know, they were like, you and I at church. Like, they were just... Do we kneel? Do we kneel?

Well, this is not our space, brother. So, you know, that's, they looked lost. And you could see it in their defensive habits. I mean, guys going back for Pucks, not shoulder checking, sticks not tied up in front of the net, just a structural bleep show. I mean, truly, it was as bad as I've ever seen at the NHL level. So, you know, it's really hard. for me. Like one thing I'd say about both the Lander and Z. Bouillon is they really struggled defensively. But, you know, so did Marcus Patterson. And I know Marcus Patterson's a lockdown, you know, top pair capable, best suited to second pair duty, but can play a shutdown role and is like reliable and good at it. And a lot of nights, he didn't know what he looked like he knew what he was doing. So how do I judge the, you know, the 20-year-old and the 21-year-old, given that Marcus Pedersen looked lost most nights,

given that Philiparonic looked lost a lot of nights. So it's, I mean, what I'd say is there's like a lot of change in the couch cushions for Mani Malhotra to find. Like everyone's got a few quarters

in their couch cushions, but the connects probably have like $35 worth of coins that they can just like pick up. I mean, is it going to be enough to order, you know, to go out for a big state dinner?

Probably not. But you'll be able to, order a pizza. And, you know, that's sort of the good thing is, is this team should be able to improve pretty significantly, like simply by moving from Adam Foote to Mani Mahhotra, of course, that's a double-edged sword. The environment is such now where someone like Bouillon or someone like Vielander is going to be in an environment and, you know, actually have some opportunities to to take forward steps. At least we'll be able to say,

I assume, because I think Mani Mahhotra did a really good job in the American League level. I think they're going to get a baseline competent structural team next year at the very least, which they did have. Whether these guys are good or not.

Like that's, there's something to be said for that. There's something to be said for it because I think you'd be remiss. I mean, I can tell you watching the games. Like, one thing I liked about Z. Boeem's game as the season progressed

is that he kept taking chances. You know, and it's tough because you're down 3-1 already. It's only the first period. And you have to push, but also if you push, you're more likely to give up the odd man rush, and it's 4-1, and are you still willing to take that chance in the third period, in the second period?

And for a player like Zibuyam, who needs to be on puck and needs to be making things happen creatively, I felt like he kept coming and kept trying to do good stuff, kept taking guys one-on-one and creating in a really challenging environment. like to see that. I think that speaks volumes about a guy's mentality. I'm not going to judge his defensive play. It wasn't good. No one else's was either. I think that's where we should cut him slack, but at least in terms of the mentality of the on puck stuff, I thought you saw enough to like, even though you could also see, like, this guy's going to need to play at 15 to 20 pounds heavier,

or he's going to get pushed off the puck sometimes when he's, you know, trying some of those dangles. He's not quite, you know, the Quinn Hughes button hook type wizard on his scale. And he's not the worm, just sort of smuggling about out there the way Quinn Hughes is, and that's fine. Like, no one else is Quinn Hughes, but could this guy be, you know, the Vancouver answer to Josh Morrissey down the line? Shea Theodore, could he be that level of player? Like, I think that's in his range of outcomes. As for Vlander, you know, I think there were some mechanical issues with his puck handling that maybe give you a little bit more pause. You know, you certainly hope that he's got one of those like Broberg or Kandre Miller type glowups in him, right?

Where like Toulsy defenseman figures it out in his mid-20s. I think that's a reasonable sort of development track to look at for him. But what I'd say is, you know, the on-ice results in terms of what the Canucks generated and what they surrendered with him on the ice were like very concerning. But the rate at which they got out scored was far less, right? as far less concerning. And you know me, Sean, I always worry. Like, when a guy's results are fine and the process is really ugly, that to me tends to be a red flag.

That said, you know, the process could improve enough whether or not he improves, right? That it becomes less of a concern on its own. So he's a really tough aval, I think, coming out of this season. Canucks fans are obviously very excited. They'll take whatever hope they can get. But I think there's, you know, a pretty significant range of outcomes still on. exactly how well both Booiam and Vlander are tracking. Let's move to Heronic, because we've edged around him a bit here.

Why does he still want to be a part of this? And how realistic is, I, true, that's not, I'm not being, that's not a smart-ass question. And how realistic is it to expect that maybe he's, he's on the move at some point? Because he makes seven and a quarter against the cap, full, full no movement clause. That's part of the answer to the first question. Like, he seems, you know, in a lot of ways, like perhaps their most tradable asset in a lot, in a lot of ways. And he doesn't seem to be interested in getting moved. So what is the status of things with him?

So I have a theory about rebuilding Sean. And, you know, I know you're like me and have been doing your Christopher Nolan rewatch ahead of the Odyssey coming out. And, you know, you know, the galaxy they go to an interstellar that's sort of. of shaped around the black hole. Yep. I think that rebuilding in the NHL, there's like a level that you hit as a team in the NHL that I call the vortex of ineptitude. And the vortex of aneptitude occurred to the Vancouver Canucks when they traded

Quinn Hughes. And effectively, it's like while you had Quinn Hughes, even if you weren't good, you were good enough every year, like just by virtue of having him, that you could at least dream on things falling your way and make the playoffs. You can convince yourself if you have to. You could at least sell it. And some years you might even be right. And when you fall beneath that baseline functional level, right, where like there's no escape

from losing. No light will escape the black hole. No losing will, no winning will escape from the Vancouver Canucks. Like they will be losing for years here. They've slipped into what I call the vortex of an aptitude. And the point is when you're when you're falling into or swirling about this vortex, things pick up their own weight, right? Like things become intractable.

So it's one thing for Philip Peronick this summer to tell the Vancouver Canucks, he's got a no move clause this year. He's got a no move clause next year. The year after that, it's a 15 team modified no trade. So this summer, this summer, it makes sense for him to be like, hey, I'm comfortable in Vancouver, my family's settled in Vancouver. I want to be part of turning this around. He's only been losing for six months.

He's only been existing in a world without Quinn Hughes on his left side and in which for six months. Another year of losing. And next summer, the conversation is, Phil, do you want to do this now? Should we go to the team and try to do this now while we have total say over where you go? Or do we want to wait for July 1 next year, where half the league? We can only restrict half the league. And the other 15 teams can bid. Right.

And it turns to Phil Hironick, you're a national predator. something like I or whatever. Philip Pironi getting married the summer he just got married. He's 28 still, right? He turns 29 in September. It's one thing at the age of 28 to be like, I see the vision. I believe in what we're doing here. I love the city.

My wife loves the city. We want to stay. Right. It's another thing to be having that conversation when you're, I'm turning 30 in two months and this is my last chance to choose my destination. And then it's another thing entirely to be having that conversation when you're 30, 31, 32, and sort of the footsteps of retirement begin to be heard in your hallway. And also, you don't have control over the situation anymore. So for me with Philip Peronick, I think it's one of

those situations, like, does part of me think that it's a red flag when a player really wants to stay for a team that has no short-term hope, like, kind of? But also, I look at this as sort of part of a process. And it's one thing for Philip Peronick to feel that way today. I think it's a very different thing to feel that way 12 months from now. We'll see what he's saying after another 58 point season. Right. And I think, well, I mean, they'll be hard pressed to do 58 again, man. I mean, this team doesn't have the talent to take the Anaheim Ducks type step. Yeah. But I've got this, I've got this coaching theory that like John Cooper, you know, uh, Bruce. Cassidy,

whomever you want, the best of the best. I think at the end of the day, those guys only have, like, a little bit of impact. At the top end, like they probably give you a 10-point edge.

Maybe they make you 15% better, which is huge, massive, justifies massive spending, given that they're non-cap personnel, right? But I think at the bottom end, if you have Greg Cronin or Adam Foot, right?

I think the impact of, like, truly inept coaching can be huge. Like, I think it can absolutely submarine a team. And I think sometimes when we see Doug Wake at a time's experiencing, anaheim and part is experiencing that now, like what they're dealing with as relates to Leo Carlson or Mason McTavish or whatever, this is the fruit still to some extent

of the Greg Cronet tree. I agree. And I'd add this. Like I think the Doug Wait to Barry Trots experience is another good example from the last decade, like, you know, I think the connects are going to need to be mindful of making sure that they finish at the bottom of the standings because what they did, just lapping the field at the bottom, you know, like that's not going to be easy to do, even though they're underskilled. Like, it's, it's not going to be easy to have the top draft lottery odds sewn up by January,

the way they did this past season, especially if Malhotra is, you know, Marco Sturm, Dan Mews, level good, which I think there's reasonable, which is a reasonable bet. So, you know, being bad is something they're going to have to manage carefully here. And, you know, that's one of the areas where keeping Philiparonic actually has something of a risk profile for the Canucks. Now, the risk profile there too, Sean I'd add is no coach in the world is going to look at their options on this Canucks blue line and play Philipperonek any less than 28 minutes a night. Yeah. Right. But you cannot do that. You cannot afford to A, let him impact games to that level because he's actually good, but B, to take on that level of injury risk. Potentially expose him to that level of

injury risk. Right? Because that's the other thing that the Canucks have to be mindful of. Like, in what form do you store value, right, when you're this bad? You don't want to run the wheels off, Philip Heronick. And we saw it with the Canucks trading Marcus Patterson to the New York Rangers for a first round pick in like 2030. Could be a pick in 2031. Like, Sean, they might pick a kid draft born in 2012 with the asset that they got back for Marcus Pedersen. It's sickening. I know.

We are, we are decrepit for that. We are so washed. But the, but the, you know, that like the good part about that trade, the thing that makes sense about that trade, more than anything, is that draft pick in 2030 or 2031, all it can do is gain value is that, you know, draft gets closer. Whereas a 31-year-old defenseman at the end of the day next year, they're a 32-year-old defenseman. The year after that, they're a 33-year-old defenseman. I mean, they can hold value by continuing to play well, but the risk profile on them increases.

So, you know, I do think the Canucks, like they've shown us with their moves that they're thinking about this sort of thing. They should be thinking about this sort of thing just from a portfolio management perspective. And Heronics, you know, just like storing the value of Philip Heronik in a player who can't help but be overused. on this roster, like that's suboptimal in the extreme and something that, you know, I'm sure the team's aware of and they better have a plan to address with Manny Malhotra in terms of limiting his ice time and his burn. We're going to move on to the forwards. They drafted Caleb Malhotra.

He certainly seems like he's ticketed for the for Boston University, I believe, next year. Yes. Yep. Be you, Terriers. Be you, baby. Brendan Gallagher, Paul Kotter, you know, tradable assets again for future. fourth round picks or whatever. Evander Kane and Nealz Hoglander go out,

uh, seem like good riddons to Kane. Shocker there. Hooglanter is traded for a third rounder, I believe, which is, yeah, these,

okay, fine. Um, this is largely a returning group. Uh, and we're talking about, talking about Elias Pedersen and Bessor and Debrusk and Marco Rossi. Um,

we're, we need to start at the top. We need to talk about Pedersen. Um, from the Canucks perspective, at this point, and as you understand it, what does a palatable Alias Patterson trade look like?

What is the floor on that move if they were to make it? I mean, I think the darnel nurse trades the template. You know, the darnel nurse trade is the, if you just want out of the contract, you take back, you know, I mean, in the case, in Edmonton's case,

they took back Shakir MacMudulin, who's like out of his entry level deal and isn't pacing to be much more than a deaf level defenseman, but maybe, maybe there's still some untapped upside. But the value really is in creating the salary cap space. And I think you're probably looking at something pretty similar with Elias Pedersen. There's a lot of term left on that deal. There's a lot of money left on that deal.

There's a lot of lump sum money left on that deal. And most importantly, as we've seen, you know, across the league over the past three to four weeks, Sean, right? Like trade value more than anything else is a combination, right? of quality and demand and demand, right? And this is where Elias Pedersen has full control over the situation. He's got a full NMC. That NMC at no point modifies. It is a locked-in NMC. You cannot create a bidding war for Elias Pedersen, right? There is probably a very small list of teams that he'd be willing to consider going to. And as a result, you're not going to

have multiple people driving up the price. So I made the nurse comparison in a mailbag recently, and Canucks fans were furious, but it's like, what do you think? Like, I mean, this guy's got significant off-ice and character concerns stemming from his rift with J.T. Miller, but also the fact that he's been repeatedly called out for his lack of preparation by multiple different Canucks managers over the years. You know, he is a skilled player. He has been 100-point center, but he's also been, like, pretty mid.

for 30 months. His shot velocities down. All start break 2024, right? Like that was that was it. That was the line in the sand for him. It's from a productive. 100%. And just go watch and play. Like he's not making things happen out there. He's not slow. He works hard. Like he blocks shots. He's, he's had to like retrofit his game for his diminished level of juice. To me, that's deeply concerning. Um, so yeah, I mean, I, I think if the connect. could figure out a solution to the Elias Pedersen problem and move him on this summer, that would be their preference.

I think the Canucks would have liked to do more tearing down and dismantling of this roster than they've been able to do to this point. I think it's pretty clear that they've been value conscious in sort of how they've gone about that. I think that makes sense for a team with absolutely zero win-now pressure on them. But yeah, I mean, I don't think Pedersen would have a significant amount of trade value. I think the club would like to move him if they could. And I think the fact that they haven't, you know, speaks to how limited their options are.

Yeah, we're talking about him as a cap dump for a team that doesn't need to dump cap. Right? That's tough. Yeah. I'd bring up the Zach Perise, Ryan Souter buyouts as kind of the most straightforward example that I can think of in sort of recent NHL history, where you sort of, you know, cut off your nose to spite your face, but it's for the betterment of the organization. It's like, can you really construct a new culture with, you know,

Pedersen around is sort of the question that I think the organization has to wrestle with, even if it's not one that sort of fans not thinking through the day-to-day experience that this organization's trying to construct. You know, they can just look at it as trade value and they can sort of wishcast their dreams of Peterson returning to form onto him. And look, maybe it happens. I mean, at the end of the day, he's still a talented, young enough. player.

But, you know, I don't know. I'd be really surprised if the elite forum comes back after all this time. If you were a team that was looking to maximize him, some non-Kinnock's team, let's say, what kind of players do you skate him with? Like, how does Elias Pedersen look like something resembling, you know, a true top six forward in, in 20206? Like, what kind of guy does he need to have on his flanks to look a little bit more passable than he has, you know, over the last couple years.

Well, one of the great tragedies of the Quinn Hughes-Alius Pedersen era for the Vancouver Canucks is that the absolute perfect Elias Pedersen linemate was J.T. Miller, right? Like, that's one of the, that's one of the ironies of it, right? Cusmanco has some similarities in his offensive game to J.T. Miller, obviously, temperamentally and stylistically, they couldn't be more different. But the down low playmaking in particular, right? The work on the wall down low. Below the circles and along the walls, I can see that. Below the hash marks, creative passing plays from down low to a player working to get open

in space and who can sort of one-shot it. That's sort of what you kind of need to put Elias Pedersen. You need to put it on Elias Pedersen's wing, in my opinion. The Canucks actually have a pretty interesting, you know, he's not young anymore, but a pretty interesting mid-aged bet to play with him in Linus Carlson, who I think was massively underutilized despite having actual good results for the Canucks last season. So they sort of have that. The other thing that I'd want to put Pedersen with these days is someone who can drive a little bit through the neutral zone, who can carry the puck through the neutral zone, because that

part, overly as Pedersen's game feels like it might just be a thing of the past. We just don't see those same sorties, you know, those same sort of dynamic entries with speed as a puck carrier through the neutral zone. So a winger with some pace, the Canucks, by the way, absolutely do not have that person. And someone who can sort of make plays from down low, like that would be the ideal setup, I think. But even then, like, you know, I think you go into next season if you're the Canucks. And I'll be pretty surprised if we don't get to mid-December and just like outright and on merit, Marco Rossi is playing more five on five minutes. Like he should. He's probably the better player at this point. Yeah, I wanted to talk about Rossi specifically. Like, what do you view his

short and long-term role with his franchise as? Because he was, you know, he was after the Olympic break. I think he was particularly productive. Like, yeah, he was. He's in an interesting spot because of his age, his contract status. Like, I, I'm, I'm interested in seeing what happens for him. Um, and his height. And his height, right? Like, Mark, Marco Rossi is unfortunately one of those guys whose real hockey value is greater than his exchange value simply because of his listed height. And it's unfair to those guys,

but that's just how the NHL works. And the problem is, is the only way to ever overcome the concerns that a player gets attached to their listed height. The only way to ever overcome it is the Stankovin Zach Benson route, right? You have to win in the playoffs. You have to dominate playoff games.

Well, Marker Rossi is probably not getting a chance to do that anytime soon, Sean. So, you know, he's actually a pretty inconvenient asset for the Canucks to be holding in that I think he's actually good. He played to a 66 point pace once he got healthy down the stretch last season after sort of returning from injury in late February. And so he's actually good. He's actually productive. He's on a bridge contracts, year two of a bridge contract. so he's signed for this year and next thing he's an RFA after that but you know in that in and of itself that means that you know they're kind of on a clock with him he's probably going to get

the sort of opportunity to build a heck of an arbitration case in a you know consequence free environment where he's going to play no no doubt top six minutes he's not top power play like he's his his count numbers are going to be good his counting numbers are going to be good someone's someone's someone's got to score points and and he's probably never going to have to have to have the sort of trade value that actually matches his quality as a hockey player. And so that's tough. I guess what I would say is, I guess the other part of this is he's old enough that by the time you build the next core of the next great Canucks team around like a totally newly

assembled core over the next two, two, three more drafts, by the time those guys are ready to win, he's probably pushing 30. Right. So it's not a perfect rebuilding asset. What I would just say is in an era of cap growth. The key with Rossi from a Vancouver perspective is to decide proactively. I don't think it's a problem to sign him long term with a contract that starts when he's 26. At the end of the day, even if the last two years of that aren't perfect, the cap might be so high.

And the utility of having him locked up is probably greater than trading him for a non-premium return, which is what you're most likely looking at. But I'd say more than anything, the key is to make the decision next summer, right? Or at the deadline this year. You just have to make it quickly. If you're going to try and monetize him, you've got to do that fast while teams are talking themselves into a year and a half of cost-controlled Marco Rossi, as opposed to staring down the barrel of a really strong arbitration case.

And if you're going to extend him, you've got to extend him proactively before the market resets again, which is just going to keep doing on an every six-month basis, as the NFL has taught us during the cap growth era, a lesson that hockey fans probably haven't quite wrapped their head around just yet. It's going to be interesting to see people figure that out because they're going to have to. Well, think about how much of the conversations changed in the last six months. Six months ago, hockey fans were still like, Nick Schmaltz, seven-year deal. Like, that's pretty team friendly. It's like, no, it's not. Right. Like, that's higher cap hits less term, right? Higher cap hits less trade restrictions.

Like what you need now is the ability to move things. You know, if you don't have that, you're kind of cooked. You can't pounce on all the opportunities that this arrow of player empowerment is created. Yeah, it's a bad idea to have the top two of the top 200 players in the game. You give 160 of them no moving clause in one regard in one regard or not. It's not going to work that way anymore. And people are going to need to adjust. Just pay them more.

Like seriously, the first. The first team that starts... Stop using no movement clauses to drive down wages, which is what GM did for a gazillion years and just pay them what they're worth. The first team that's just really disciplined about being like, we pay fair market value, but you never get more than a 10 team modified no trade clause. The efficiencies that they're going to pick up across this sort of new era, I mean, it's going to be massive. They've been connected to Shane Wright. Does that make any sense? Not really.

And I'm a big Shane Wright fan. I think people are looking at the counting stats from last season and kind of sleeping on it. You know, he's really fast. Like he's an elite skater. He's a right-handed center. He plays the game hard and he's got some skill to punish mistakes off the rush. Like this, to me, this is very much, this is as close as you're going to get to the bet that the Florida Panthers made on Sam Bennett. Like, this is basically as clean a re-roll as you're going to find for that player profile right down.

to the like, you know, a penchant for taking bad penalties in the offensive zone. The draft pedigree, like all of it, right? It's all, I don't know how Shane Wright was doing pull-ups at 17, but other than that, it's like pretty much a straight line.

We got to go back to the tape from the, from the Buffalo scouting event. Anyway, so I'm a big Shane Wright fan. Like, if I'm dropping a Sam Bennett comp, that's, you know,

very much not derogatory. That's complimentary in the extreme. but the Vancouver Canucks need a stud face of the franchise level center, right? Like the Canucks need, and as much as I like Shane Ryden, as much as I like Sam Bennett, like that's not who those guys are. I think he can be a really, really good second line center on a great team. I think he'd be like a home run cut for a team like Buffalo. You know, like Buffalo, especially if they're swinging a deal for, I don't know,

a certain American goaltender who likes the idea of being the successor to Dominic Hatch. and Ryan Miller. I mean, if they wanted to clear cap space, you know, Shane Wright for Jack Quinn and Ryan McLeod or something. Like, I don't know. Just pulling it out there. Like, that to me makes sense.

He's a good fit. He's a good fit for a team like Buffalo, because he could play behind some guys and, you know, maybe give you some additional center depth so that you can play Alex Tuck on the wing, not Alex Tuck, um,

Tage Thompson on the wing in the playoffs when some of the defensive flaws in his game begin to, imagine him being a, I can imagine it being a two C on a good team, Shane Wright. That's what I'm saying. And I just think the Canucks, like, they're not the good team that needs the two C and they need the one C. You know, they've got Coots, they've got Mahotra, they've got another guy too.

Coots, Mahotra, and, oh, Rossi. So like, you've already got a bunch of U25 bids in the pool to have the second line center on a really good team. Like, what this team needs is the iron in the fire that can maybe produce the ceiling. case. So, I mean, even if, even if you're talking about trading a first and a second, like, that's just too expensive at this point in the Canucks rebuilding effort. You know, it just doesn't make sense. Does Brock Besser have more trade value than Elias Pedersen right now? No. No, no, I don't think so. The problem for DeBrest and contracts rough, he's got a lot of control. And I'd add this, like, look around, right? Like, why are you giving a...

up assets and taking on the Brock Besser deal when you can give Michael Bunting's agent a call or Anthony Manta's agent a call or Patrick Cain's agent a call or Vladimir Teresenko's agent. The winger market hasn't moved, right? These guys are in stasis. So why is anyone going to give up assets for DeBrasque or Bessor? And we've seen players who are better asset packages than Brock Besser not move. And I'm talking Pittsburgh brain coming here, but I'm thinking of Brian Russ. I'm thinking Ricardo Kelly, who were assigned a big. And I'm saying, better contracts and were more productive last year. And those guys, those guys were there for the taking and there they sit on the roster for Pittsburgh. It's, I think these guys are going to be

waiting and, and for good reason. I mean, literally like you're not going to pay a premium to acquire a guy who's a less efficient bet than one you can place without acquisition costs, right? I mean, period. So, you know, I think that market's basically frozen for now. Mm-hmm. We're going to move to gold tending. I do want to talk about Thatcher. Demco. I played in 20 games last season, put up a sub-900 save percentage before hip surgery in January, ended things for him again. He's in the first year of a contract that pays him 8.5 against the cap for the next three seasons. Where does he fit in the overall? I truly. As we go over this, it's unbelievable, right? I like he makes he makes too much money, obviously.

For a guy who almost certainly isn't going to be able to, you know, play more than in a timeshare situation. But like there is a world where he's good enough for long enough to completely submarine the tank. Like they could finish conceivably 29th because Thatcher Demko goes on some 12 game run that, you know, screws things up for them. Is that, is that fair to say? I mean, look, I hope that we get to see that. You know, I hope we get to see that because I've covered a lot of Thatcher Demko returning from injury. I've written a lot of those stories, and I haven't really got to write the Thatcher Demko is too good that it's inconvenient for the Canucks Rebuild. Like, I haven't gotten to write that piece in a long time.

So, and let's be real, I was writing that piece when the Canucks were actually like good in the minds of other people. Multiple times. Multiple times. So anyway, with Demco, like, I hope we get to see that. I think here's the, here's the, I'm just going to try and take a step back and sort of talk it through factually. Thatcher-Demko is now 30 years old. The hip surgery that he underwent last season was the second hip surgery, something that, as far as I know, no NHL goaltender's done, right? Like the double hip impingement surgery, that's not something we've seen before, so that's unprecedented.

That's on top of the fact that he dealt with that unprecedented. knee tear two years ago. Before Thatcher Demko sustained the unprecedented knee tear and went through the unprecedented second hip surgery, he'd never at any point in his career put together a season in which he was a workhorse starter with an above average save percentage who was healthy at the end of the year. Like those three things that I think are required to have had a workhorse Nebraska season. He never checked them all at the same time.

He never checked them all in a single season once at any point in his career. And now people are worried that he might ruin the tank at the age of 30 coming back from multiple unprecedented medical ailments. Like, you know, I'm really, probably unfounded concerns here, I would imagine. I can't get there, you know? Like, and I'm just thinking about this, like, how would I assess this if I was considering him as like a running back at the two, three turn in a fantasy football draft? I'd be like, you know, I'm not too worried about him burning me. So that's just, you know, that's just the shape of the thing, right? I really hope that he beats the odds, but that's what he has to do.

He has to beat extremely long odds to be a great player again. And so then you get into sort of the longer conversation because Lankinen's also the larger conversation, not longer. Sorry, Sean, I didn't mean to threaten you there. The larger conversation with Lankin's. because Lankinen's also signed 4.5 forever. He's got a full no move clause this season. And, you know, I think the connects need to be looking at this and thinking through, do we carry three goaltenders?

Like, we probably should carry three goaltenders. I think Demko, they should have a goal on starts for him. That's something like 25 to 30. Like, let's get through a 12-month period where Thatcher Demko is completely healthy. Doesn't get hurt. Yeah. Doesn't get hurt. Completely healthy. And the way that I'd go about doing that is,

I'd be limiting his reps. practice on the games that he's not playing, I wouldn't even have him backing up, right? Like, I definitely don't want him stopping shots being taken by scratches in the morning because he's the backup. I don't want him doing the extra work and the warm-up skate. You know, like, he should be on a strict pitch count. Let's get 25 really fun Thatcher Demko games, all of which he leaves after the final buzzer, totally healthy. Like, let's do that, and then and then sort of we'll see where we land next season. We'll see where we land the season after that.

Like can we put 18, 24 months between Demko and, you know, his last start in which he left hurt? Because right now, like, he's been injured on average every seven starts for two and a half years, Sean. Like, it's been really tough. It's been really tough. So I haven't heard you use that one yet. That's, that is wild. Well, yeah. Well, dude, go check the game log.

Because a lot of them, too, are like a game against Toronto where he leaves after the first, and we don't see him for a sit. Like, you know, it's just been a litany of things. And I really hope that he's figured out, like, the source of it. And I really hope that he can continue to do the thing he does in an elite level professionally, because it just sucks. It sucks for anybody to be on the sidelines like this. So I'm really hopeful that he's,

he can overcome the odds, but I think we need to be very clear-eyed about how long those odds are. And the connects need to design a plan for it, right? Like, they need to be carrying three goaltenders and they need to be conscious of this. And I think that'll be a really interesting tell for this team. How the organization operates, too, just like in terms of mindset and communication and synergy between all the various stakeholders, right? And value creation, right? because you're trying to manage the Demco value.

You're trying to manage the Lankanin value. But I'd add this. They have top waiver priority. And you look around the NHL. Like, who signed Corpusallo's, the Rangers, right? So they have that grand kid or whatever who's like pretty good or like Ottawa. Ottawa did something stupid in gold too. Who did they sign?

Erson, right? They brought in Erson, but they've got that Maralinen kid who's pretty good. Right. So there's some goleys who are actually interesting who are probably going to be on waiver. available at some point. You know, and the Canucks have have one of their own too, who's probably not as highly thought of as those gentlemen or as high upside as those gentlemen. So it's like, you know, get to get to camp and wave toll of pilo day one when no one's

going to put in a claim so that you know what you've got. And then you can probably pick out a pretty interesting third goaltender. And it's like there's no easier way. You know, you're talking about all the assets that the Canucks might be able to trade for a fourth. Like you want to trade a real asset in season. You know, well, also manage. Demko's minutes. Like, this is it. This is as easy as it gets. This is the tap-in of all tap-ins

when you really think your way through it. So, you know, I honestly feel like how the Canucks manage their situation in net might be one of the most telling early indicators we get of, like, how sharp are the twins of Ryan Johnson? How much can they just bring basic common sense into the sort of equation of rebuilding this hockey club? See, this is why you're the best. You have me paying a attention to the Canucks goaltending situation. You've added, you've added, you've added stakes to this for me. I, I simply cannot believe it.

Let's go. Let's go, baby. So typically in these shows, this is where we talk about teams playoff chances. I think it's fair to call those non-existence for the V and Cuber Canucks. That's a good thing. To answer the big question, I mean, we've, we've circled around it a couple different times. Like, is this team going to be bad enough?

like is and whether it is or isn't what does a successful season look like like if if it's late april and we're like okay mission accomplished for vancouver like what kind of stuff does that entail yeah so i think a really successful vancouver canucks season would look like the following the canucks are in april no higher than 31st in the nchl standings however in getting there they looked night to night like a team that worked hard that was consistent, that they were losing games because they don't have the horses, they weren't losing games because they quit night to night. I think that would represent huge progress over last season.

I'd add, too, that at least they're playing organized enough structural hockey that we can talk about the young defenders on the team and actually have a sense of what they are versus how confused they. are night to night, right? So a team that competes and carries itself professionally and plays organized professional NHL-level hockey, even if they're getting blown out with frequency, I think that would represent significant progress. I'd add, too, like, they've got a lot of prospects that they just picked, you know, a really strong season from Manny, from Caleb Mowacher, excuse me, at BU, right? You know, starring for Canada and Edmonton at the World Juniors.

Likewise with Adam Novotny for Czechia and, you know, Brooks Ruggowski, their second round pick, or Aaron Olson, their Norwegian winger, they picked in the second round who's also going to be you. You know, Braden Kutz is establishing himself down the stretch as an everyday NHL-level player. Jonathan Lackaramaki, you know, looks like he's put on weight and has a shot to maybe be something for this team.

Blander and Bouillon, you know, aren't picking up scar tissue in a really bad environment, but instead are making steady progress, right? For me, it's going to be much more about that. And then I'd add this, like, in terms of how this team connects with this community and carries itself culturally, right? Like, does this team deliver on, you know, not just the promise, but the outline, the plan that Ryan Johnson and company have spelled out?

Like, can we see the, you know, we're not going to see the fruits of that. Like, it's not like the seeds that are being planted are going to blossom necessarily by the end of this season. Right. But, but, like, can we see some sprouts? Like, can we, can we see that this makes sense, that it's, that it's sensible? And can the club at least avoid doing the really obvious, like, can they avoid doing, making the really obvious mistakes that they've just made time and time again, you know,

whether that's, you know, Thatcher Demko's playing his seventh game in a row. And it's like, come on. Stop it, right? Or Philip Or Or Oronic is leading the NHL. average ice time per game, right? Like, can they avoid doing the stuff that we just know is self-defeating in advance? If they can hit those boxes, and I've set a pretty low bar, Sean. Like, that's a pretty low bar.

Like, try as NHL players. Behave as NHL players. Don't do anything destructively stupid as a front office or coaching staff. Play NHL-level systems and have your, the third overall pick, have a good season in Div 1. Like, you hit those four boxes. while avoiding doing anything really stupid and I'll be like, wow, what a great season. And I guess I'd add this.

You know, they better find a way to get an additional first round pick in 2027. They better find a way to sell off, you know, whether it's Cotter or Drew O'Connor. Like, you know, they better find some smart ways to add value into the organization. And that's maybe a little bit more challenging because let's be real, the Connects don't have a ton of value, a ton that's valuable among their holdings. But yeah, check those six boxes for me. and I think we'll begin to be on sort of the right path in terms of where the connects are going. Jairns, I've been waiting for you to cover a rebuilding team for a very, very long time.

So I'm excited about the work you've done. I'm excited about the work to come. Thanks for having you, buddy. It's going to be a blast. We always pay attention to it, man, but we're going to pay attention to it even more closely of the next little bit. So thanks, brother. Anytime, man. Cheers. Enjoy the summer.

And thanks for having me. You bet. And thanks also to you fine folks for watching and listening to this episode of the Athletic Hockey Show. Thank you to producer Jeff. As always. Next up is Laz, Pete Bob, Vince McCarviano. They're trying to fix the Rangers. That drops on Monday.

We'll see you next time.