The Athletic Hockey Show - Huberdeau benching overshadows Flames win, Sharks record tying futility streak is over and the best fit for free agent Patrick Kane

Episode Date: November 8, 2023

Ian Mendes and guest co-host Jesse Granger discuss the Flames come from behind win over Nashville, the 3rd period benching of Jonathan Huberdeau, the San Jose Sharks finally winning their first game of the season and Sportco's rankings of NHL franchise values.Plus, Ian and Jesse take a look at the best landing spots for free agent Patrick Kane, and with Marc Andre Fleury now four wins away from tying Patrick Roy for 2nd all-time on the goalie win list, Down Goes Brown stops by to present his Mount Rushmore of NHL goalies, 8 players who seemed on track to be hall of famers: until they weren't, and which Canadian fanbase should be worried the most, Edmonton, Ottawa, Calgary or Toronto?Subscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: http://youtube.com/@theathletichockeyshowThis episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/nhlshow to get 10% off your first month. Find your bright spot this season with BetterHelp. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. Hey, everybody. Welcome to your Wednesday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. As always, Ian Mendez with you in one of the host chairs, and we got a little pinch hitting action going on. Julian McKenzie traveling as the flames make their way through the eastern part of Canada. Julian's on that trip, and so we bring in Jesse Granger. Pinch, we call you a pinch hitter?

What's the term for highway? E bug? Echidder. E bug. There you. It was sitting right there. What am I talking about? E bug. The E bug extraordinaire.

Jesse Granger is by, and we're going to have Sean McIndoo. Down Goes Brown. He's going to drop by for a chunk of this podcast today. We're going to talk about a bunch of kind of, I think, interesting stories floating around the league, some games on Wednesday night.

Only a couple of them, but I think they're all interesting. You know, what's funny is that Julian is in the air right now, and his team, super interesting, Jonathan Hubertoe, anytime you get a big-time star staple to the bench, it's funny, right? Because there's two schools of thought. One is, yes, finally the coach is holding them accountable. And then the other side is, well, I don't know.

That's a dangerous road to go down. And that's where the flames are at. They staple Huberto to the bench in a win over Nashville. What's your take on a star player, big name player, a big ticket player being bench for the third period of the game. Yeah, I mean, it's obviously going to send a message to the team. And to me, it's just up to, like, as a coach, you've got to feel for like, you understand this is going to have an impact.

How are my players going to react to this? And I think as a coach, you have to know. And for a new coach who hasn't been there that long, it's do you have a good enough feel on the room that you, you think that this is going to be a positive reaction from your players? And like you said, they're going to take it the first way, which is, okay, he's holding guys accountable. If Jonathan Hubertow can get benched for the entire third period, any of us can, we all need to reload. We need to back check.

We need to do everything the coach is asking. So I think that depending on your players and depending on the feel for your team, this can be a good move or a bad move. And you just have to trust the coach to know that this group of players is going to react positively to this. What do you think? Yeah, it's a dicey move from a new head coach. coach, right? Like, like,

and Huberto's got a lot of term and money left on his deal. It's not like he's got his last year of his deal, or sitting here with seven more years left on the deal. But I like it in the sense of you're holding people accountable, right? And I think if your star players aren't playing well, it's okay the odd time to bench them. I mean, look, we've seen it with Goddrault.

We've seen it now with Huberdo. We've seen it. Remember last year, Stephen Stampco, was it Stamcoast or was it Kutcherov and Point? Like, John Cooper was like, no, hey, you're not playing the third period. And I'm not happy with you have.

It might have been stamp us. Anyway, like, we've seen it happen with with star players. It's, it's a big deal because I think visually watching Hubertoe at the end of the bench and the camera panning to him. Like it was, it's a very powerful visual to see a star player just be stapled to the bench and not move. But, but, but, and look, and we're going to talk about a little bit more about kind of Calgary at Edmonton. and Toronto and Ottawa when Sean McIndoo comes by because Julian, myself, Daniel Nudra Bowman, and we all kind of got together with a, let's take a temperature check in Canada because there's a bunch of markets here where things are going off the rails, but nothing has been

gone, has been off the rails, Jesse, as much as San Jose until Tuesday night. And McKenzie Blackwood is a magician. they get outplayed, they get the win two to one. I mean, if you're San Jose, like how are you feeling right now as a group? Because it was getting to the point where people are starting to say, you are like the expansion Washington Capitals and the expansion Ottawa Senators and you are historically bad.

How much, like it's one win. Does it take all the heat off, a little bit of the heat? Like, how much are we still looking at San Jose? like a raging tire fire. Yeah, I mean, I think, I don't think one win takes the heat off. I think they need a few games of just back to normal hockey, right? Like when they were losing early in the year, they opened the season with an incredibly tough schedule.

A lot of teams would have lost a lot of games playing that schedule. And they're not a very talented team. So, of course, they lost them all. But it never really got embarrassing. It never really got to the point where, like you're mentioning, where like, this is a historically awful group of hockey players. until the two 10 goal games. Yeah, to me, they don't even need to win a bunch more games here in the next

stretch to kind of get past that. They just need to have regular losses. Like a win was great. That's what a bounce back to get a win over a Flyers team that's also struggling. But to just like play some good teams, they come here to Vegas at the end of the week. If you can come into Vegas and play a one goal game, play like even if you don't win, just not being this 10 goal, like to where everyone in the hockey world is just watch it. Like, I couldn't take my eyes off it. It was must watch TV and you feel bad for the

players. You know they're playing as hard as they can. To me, they just need a stretch of regular hockey games where it's not the embarrassment that those two 10 goal games were. A win obviously helps, but I think you need the sustained, we are a legitimate NHL team performances, right? Okay. So they got one of those. Now, if you're Edmonton and Edmonton play San Jose on Thursday, are you happier that San Jose won because you say, okay, well, they've got their one win. They're not going to be, you know, they're not going to be super ornery.

You know, they got their one win. Or if you're Edmondton, you're like, uh-oh, now they're going to be feeling it. They're going to be coming in this game with some confidence. If you're Edmonton, what's better that San Jose won? Or would you rather that they lost and they kind of kept that, that bad street going? The way the Oilers season is gone and the way,

the amount of attention that teams gets, I think the worst case scenario is San Jose's first win of the season is against you. You don't want to be the team that gives them their first win. I even saw people in Philadelphia last night saying, like, wow, the Flyers fans want to lose every game this year just to get a higher draft pick, but not this one. You didn't want to be the team to lose to the shark. So I think if you're the Oilers, the fact that you can't be the first team to lose to them takes a little bit of pressure off you.

But I do agree with you that I think you're going to get a better Sharks team just because they're feeling a little better about themselves. Confidence is so important. And does one win give you confidence after all these losses in a row? Probably not. But you're definitely feeling better than you were after the two 10 goal losses. Okay. But Friday night, it's San Jose, Vegas.

Are we headed to another 10 goal situation? Because Vegas has been, and they did a number on Colorado. I know they took a step back and the Anaheim game, whatever. But right now, if you're power ranking the teams, the NHL, Vegas is at the top. San Jose is at the bottom.

Does Friday night present a scenario in which you think another eight goal beat down could happen to the sharks? I mean, it's obviously possible. I don't think it will. The Golden Knights don't, I mean, yes, they put up seven on Colorado the other night, But that was just because the abs were just pressing so much trying to get goals that they were just handing Vegas breakaways and odd man rushes because they were pressing.

I don't see the sharks as a team like that's going to play like that. The Golden Knights in general do not score a bunch of goals. And like, yes, they did to win the cup. They scored nine on Florida. And they have like those are kind of in our memory. But in general, the Golden Knights go out and win three to one every night. And that's just the way they play. Bruce Cassidy really structured conservative defense.

that kind of allows teams to have the puck. He's not pressuring trying to get the puck back so we can have the puck as much as we want. They'll kind of let you hold it along the outside, which leads to not scoring a bunch of goals because you're just simply not, you don't have the puck the whole time. It obviously works. It's working very well. They have no reason to change it. But I just don't see the Golden Knights as the type of team to put up 10.

But I don't really see the penguins as the type of team to put up 10. And they did. So you never know. I think it's going to be interesting to see what happens in that game. the Golden Knights have owned the Sharks at a ridiculous level. I think they've only lost like four times to them in the regular season, and they play them four times a year for six years now. So their record against the Sharks is really, really good.

They, in general, own this team. You would expect that to be the case again on Friday with where these two teams are at. Yeah, so Vegas, when we're looking at the standings, Vegas number one, San Jose 32, when we look at the franchise valuations, meaning how much each franchise is worth, there's a different pecking order. And I thought this was really interesting, Sportico, Jesse, on Wednesday,

with the brand new franchise valuations. And it's a record year. And look, and I think we suspected this when Otto was sold for almost a billion dollars, US, we should have realized, okay, things are trending upwards. But the average NHL team now, according to Sportico, is worth $1.31 billion. That's up roughly three. 30% year over year. So that's, that's pretty good. What I'm shocked about, and I'm not surprised.

Toronto's number one, they're worth almost, they're worth about $2.65 billion. That's not surprising. It's not surprising that Arizona is the bottom team at $675 million. That's not surprising. What is a bit surprising, you tell me. So Arizona's at 32, they're worth $675 million. So you're thinking, okay, well, the team that's above them must only be worth a little bit more. So it's like a $200 million gap. Columbus is worth $880 million, which is 25% more than Arizona. Like, are you surprised that it's that much of a discrepancy or does this whole arena thing kind of just plummet, plummet Arizona firmly into 32 with a wide gap? So I will start by saying that I watch a lot of Shark Tank.

But that's where my business knowledge like ends right there. Like I am not, I do not feel capable of being an expert at how many million dollars a team is worth. So I'll just start by saying, I don't know how they come up with these evaluations. I think when you look at them, they generally make some sense. To me, it's, okay, a team is worth what you can sell it for. And if I were trying to buy a potential team and I was looking at Columbus and Arizona, Columbus is not a big market. The team hasn't been good.

There isn't a fun to like about Columbus, but they've got a beautiful arena. The setup downtown in Columbus around that arena is awesome. They've got restaurants everywhere. It's a very good setup and it's stable. You've got a stable fan base that shows up every night. You know where you're playing. It's a beautiful rink. And then you've got Arizona where there's just so much unknown.

You don't even know if you're going to be able to get a rink built in Arizona. So to me, a potential body. higher wouldn't even consider, if you had those two options, and even with Columbus being as much above the coyotes as they are, I don't see how an owner could potentially, could choose to buy Arizona over Columbus at those prices just because of the uncertainty, right? Like, there's so much unknown in Arizona. This could be an awful investment for you, whereas in Columbus, you know exactly what you're getting, right?

Yeah. You know, if I had known your TV watching habits, I could have had a smoother transition. with San Jose being at the bottom and Shark Tank. It was sitting right there for me. It was sitting right there for me. And I didn't have a chance. Hey, since we're doing like lists, lists seem to be our theme today, right?

We're talking about ranking the teams, ranking the teams based on values, goalie rankings on all-time wins is something I'd like to chat with you about. And Mark Andre Fleury continues to climb up the ladder, just four wins behind Patrick Waugh now. For second place, all time. And you had a chance, I know,

to cover Mark Andre, to kind of get to know him. Like, what do you think it would mean to him to pass Patrick Waugh? Because Waugh is as good as Marty Broder is and was, and we can have the debate, who's the greatest small time? Waugh is kind of like the godfather, right? Like, he's the guy at the top of the Pantheon and, you know, Brodor is right there. But what do you think it would mean for Flurry to pass Patrick Waugh with four more wins?

I mean, I think it would mean a lot. And it's also just because of, and Broder is also from Quebec. but the fact that Waugh's a Quebec guy and Flurry grew up in Quebec and that that province just means so much to him, right? Like we, we, we, we, Rousseau did some great work on, on him playing what could potentially be his final game in Montreal and what that meant to him. I remember when the Golden Knights would go to Montreal, how big of a deal it was for, for Flurry.

He, he loves representing his hometown. He loves, and I think, and I think Patrick Wa is such a big deal, especially in that area like Patrick Waugh is a big deal for everyone who's ever played goalie in their whole life. But specifically that region, I think Flurry really looked, looked up to him, modeled a bit of his game after him. And I think specifically not just moving up to whatever, what is it, fourth place. He, I think it being Patrick Waugh means more than it generally would for any other goalie, just because of that Quebec connection and what Waugh meant to Flurry growing up.

Yeah, and I think now it's funny because even, you know, six, seven years ago, I think there was a, there was a debate about Flurry as a Hall of Famer. But I think this sort of this second chapter of his career, especially the time in Vegas, winning a Vezna and sort of sort of reestablishing that he wasn't just a guy that won a cup in Pittsburgh and, you know, I think that's cemented him as a Hall of Famer. But I'm, I'm curious at the end of the day when people have the Mount Rushmore debate on goalies.

Like, for me, and it doesn't matter the order, but it's Hachik, Wa, Brodur, and then the fourth head on the Mount Rushmore, the fourth mask, that's the one that's up for debate. Is there any universe for you in which Flurry is that fourth guy? I don't think so. He's great, but I mean, it's so tough. And like honestly, I feel like the Mount Rushmore of goalies should only have three heads. And then if you want to make a second monument with some other head, just because the gap between those three and the rest of goalies all time is to me massive. There's a big gap.

Like you said, there's those. And that's why you phrased it that way, right? There's these three who are obvious. And then there's a fourth. I feel like it's almost not fair to those other three to put a fourth on there because flurry, belfort. like and then and then you've got like Ken Dryden like it how how hard is it to compare Ken Dryden to Mark Andre Fleury like yeah very difficult right they're almost playing different sports those two um I like it's it's hard to put those two into the same context and compare them and

decide I think if you had a second monument with with Dryden maybe maybe Flurry could be beyond that um Mount Rushmore but I to me the gap between Haschik Broder and Wa and everyone else is is is sizable Yeah, you know what? I'll tell you what, why don't we take a pause here? And why don't we bring our pal, Sean McAdo? He's like a Hall of Fame guru. He knows the arguments. He wrote about Hall of Fame stuff this week.

Let's ask him, when we come back on the other side, I'd like to ask him about who's the fourth goalie on Mount Rushmore. So we'll get to that on the other side. All right. Yeah, let's bring him in. I think we possibly have them ready to go. Yeah, we do. It's Sean McAdoo.

Down goes Brown. Back with us here on the Wednesday edition of the athletic hockey show. We got a question for you right off the top. Help us fill out a Mount Rushmore of goalies. We're talking about this because Mark Andre Fleury is inching in on Patrick Waugh on the all times wins list. Okay. So if Mount Rushmore, Sean, of goaltenders has in whatever order you want to put it, Dominic Hachick, Patrick Waugh, Marty Brodoer, who's goalie number four? Are we limiting this to the modern era?

I don't think so, right? I think that's the beauty of the Mount Rushmore, right? Is it Gordy Howes and Bobby Oars can maybe work their way into it? Because it's tough. I mean, that's that's the clear big three of the modern era. And there's kind of a big three of the original six era, I guess, although the extended pass at, which would be Sautchuk, Plont, and Glenn Hall. I don't know which one of those guys you pick, probably Sautchuk, I would go as number four. I think you could make the case that, you know, a Jacques Plont maybe bumps Martambrotur or somebody like that.

I know that, you know, devil's fans. Oh, you know. Okay, you're the goalie guy. No. I love Plant and I love the idea of like a Sawchuk, Plant, Glenn Hall, Ken Dryden. I don't know, I don't know, like, of that as like a, as an old school, like old era.

monument. I don't think any of those four touched the top three, though. I don't know. Again, I grew up watching these guys. I obviously didn't grow up watching any of these other guys, so it's really tough to compare.

And like I said with Ian earlier, they're playing different sports almost because the decision has changed so much. The era, cross-era question is always so tricky. Let's be real honest. Like I, you know, I said Sautra, but let's look at Jacques Platt. I mean, you go to his hockey reference page.

look at all the Vezanas, the heart votes, the first team all stars. This guy was dominant, absolutely dominant, phenomenal, you know, had a major impact on history with the mask, obviously. Just a legend, an absolute legend. You throw that guy in the time machine and you put him on the ice tonight, he gets lit up by modern NHL. They're just, I mean, there's, you're right. You're putting them on San Jose. That's not fair. maybe he doesn't get lit up by

Santos but yeah I mean that's it's it's it's always a debate we're going to have I kind of like boy I mean you can make the case that Dryden should be the fourth guy in the modern era you know all through the 70s again you know it's different the guy that I would if we're making it more modern

than that then my fourth guy that you know we saw and appreciate it in in our lifetime at least at least Ian and I at his prime would be Ed Bellford I think he would be by my number four. I had a flurry,

I had a lunguist, a head, Luongo is another one that I'd, uh, I'd really think of, but Belfour's got a couple of Esenas, got the Stanley Cup, you know,

at his height was a guy that you just, you know, you knew, oh man, are the hawk starting Belfort tonight? Oh boy, we're going to have a real, a real rough one.

So, um, yeah, my modern guys, that's it, but boy, that's, it's tough.

Where do you, where do you, where do you make that cut off? And then, boy, who do you, who do you, Who do you put on it for the different errors?

Let me just throw one. One more name that doesn't get enough respect. And I'm going to tell you right now, I'm going to say the name and some of the younger or newer fans aren't even going to know who I'm talking about. Bill Dernan. Look up Bill Dernan. I believe played only seven seasons and I think won six Vezanis.

I might be one off on that. The guy just showed up, dominated. It was the best goalie easily year in, year out, and then left in his late 20s, because of health issues, doesn't get enough respect as an all-time legend going. He's kind of the opposite of like Flurie and Luongo, right? Who just played forever and just racked up the wins,

just kept on racking him up. He's a compiler, you know, he was never the best. He just stuck around forever. You should be pumping the bill Dern and tires because that guy, he and Kendry, where are the two that it was just in and out quick and dominant the entire way. You know, it's funny.

when you bring up Belfour, like when Ed Belfour first started in the NHHL of Chicago, he was a 40-win guy right away, right in the conversation of his best goalie, and he continued it throughout his career. I loved your column today about guys who maybe had a similar start to their career as Ed Balfour, and it looked like after like season three, four, five, like this guy, go ahead, start making the bust. This guy's going to the Hall of Fame, and it just sort of fell off of a cliff for, and you had a couple of goalies in there, like Ron Hextall,

Danny Heatley was in there. Gary Suter, I think, was in there. Out of all of the names that you compiled, is there one guy still on there that you're like, you know what, I could actually make a case that this guy is a borderline Hall of Famer or did the second half of their career just, it just fell off a clip.

There's no argument to be had on any of those guys that you wrote about today. I did mention Gary Suter. He is a guy that I think the cases may be stronger than people would think. he is, you know, to start with, he is the, we always hear, you used to hear it for Pierreterjean, highest scoring player that's not in the Hall of Fame. You hear it for Keith Kuchuk, he's got the most goals of anyone not in the Hall of Fame.

Gary Suter's the high scoring defenseman, not in the Hall of Fame of eligible guys, and it's not even close. And he's one of those guys where, you know, you look at the resume for the Norris trophies and you don't really see it. But this guy was playing in the Ray Bore, Chris Chalius Paul Coffey era. You know, maybe we shouldn't expect him to be racking them up. And plus also as an American, a guy that was a big part of that program developing and becoming the powerhouse that it eventually became, you're not going to get a lot of support in Canada. As soon as you say Gary Suter, people are thinking Wayne Gretzky and they're thinking Paul

Korea and they're not happy about either. But he's a guy with an option. As I wrote in the column, Rick Barton was a guy that I, from the French Connection line, was a guy that I didn't fully appreciate, didn't really see. him. By the time I became a hockey fan, his best years were behind him. But he's a guy that I look at, I was surprised at how strong his case is. A guy that, you know, to put it in a more modern context, think about Paul Korea,

think about Cam Neely, guys like that where they were great and they were well on that Hall of Fame track and then they get hurt. You know, Martans, that sort of guy where you look at it and you go, man, if he hadn't messed up his knee. and then like it wasn't treat it right and everything and his career just pretty much ended almost you know out of nowhere he'd be a guy that would be up there and then the other guy that I guess I don't think is going to get in and I don't think I could really make a case but of all the guys that I mentioned and maybe of just of all the guys who aren't in the Hall of Fame period

there's there's two ways that you can talk about this you can look at the stats and the resumes and all this stuff and make all the comparisons or you can just go by that that Hall of Fame I test of who was it that at some point you were watching them and you were going, that guy is going to be a Hall of Famer for sure. And, you know, that you're at the game and you're telling your friends or your kids or your dad or whoever you're with, watch that player because that's a Hall of Famer. And the guy for me, and you mentioned him, Ron Hextel, if you had told me three years in his career that Ron Hextel wasn't going to be in a hall.

This guy was the coolest hockey player that we had ever seen. I mean, this guy is, first of all, he comes in as a goalie. Vezina, Calder, Kahn Smythe, first year, he's in the running for everything, drags a Philadelphia team to the Stanley Cup final twice in three years. But he's doing, his goaltending was Vesina quality, and yet it was the third most interesting thing about him, because he was attacking guys left and right. And when he got bored of doing that, he was scoring goals,

which it, like, blew our minds back then. Yeah. Goalie goals are rare today, but we'd never even... conceived that a goalie could do that. He does it twice. As I said in the piece, he was a goalie on an American team doing national ad campaigns in Canada

because he was that cool. And I mean, if you, the Hall of Fame being a lot of people put the underline on fame, man, I don't know that there was a player that was more fascinating to watch

for the first few years of his career. And, you know, he didn't fall off a cliff afterwards. He was pretty good for, you know, he had as good in his bad years. But some injuries. in the trade to the Nordiques in the Lindraust deal kind of spelled the end of him as an elite guy.

But that would be out of everyone, the one guy that I would look back on and go, you're kidding me. This guy doesn't make the Hall of Fame. I mean, just based on how much fun he is to watch in his first few years, he should be halfway there already. You know, what's interesting is in Sean's piece, he has a link to that Canada Dry Gingerail commercial from the 80s. And there's two things that jump. Well, the thing that jumps out at me is, you know nowadays when you see a lot of athletes in ads like I always think like even like remember when Shaq what was Shaq you like icy hot patches it's always like a generic jersey that like it'll be the colors of the team but it's not Ron Hexel is straight up wearing a

flyers jersey in this Canada dry commercial and I'm wondering when's the last time we've seen an athlete like like usually like it's all generic stuff right yeah it's like Edmondton hockey player, Connor McDavid. Yeah. And you know what? I don't know any of the background on that. How much would you be willing to bet that that's just because he showed up, they had a Flyers jersey and nobody thought to check, you know,

nobody was going to complain. No lawyers involved. It was just, yeah, here you go, man. And you and your mustache are going to drink Canada dry in a way too seductive way. And, you know, for the camera. And then that was it, man. You don't have to be sweet to be good. Great tagline.

That's an all-timer. I'd love to know what came first the tagline or we got Ron Hextel to do our ad. You had to, they must have built the ad campaign around Ron Hextel, right? You would think so, but I don't know, you know, Canada Dry. You can picture them saying, you know, you don't have to be sweet to be good. Oh, I like that. Okay, well, who could we get?

And just the first guy to go, Ron Hextel, you know, they're all sitting under the bar going, there's got to be somebody. And then in the background, you see Ron Hextel just chasing Rob Brown around with a stick. and somebody goes, I think we got our guy. Yeah. I'm so jealous I wasn't old enough to enjoy this era, this, this Ron Hextall breakout era. Like, just listening to you talk about it, I am genuinely upset that I did not experience that. I'm trying to even think of like an equit, like, I, I, it's, it would be outrageous to even make the comparison.

But like, what we're seeing in baseball with the tanay, where he's like pitching and hitting at the same time. You're just like, how is that even the idea that you had a goal to? who could score goals and was also your team's goon was just was absolutely nuts. And he was in Philadelphia. Like it just fit, right? Perfect. Exactly. You know what I remember too about him?

Sean? And again, those like mid to late 80s Stanley Cups are like those are the ones like I don't really remember much about like I don't remember the Islanders dynasty. Really? I do remember the Oilers. And I remember the Oilers Fliers Cop. And do you remember this about Ron Hextall that he used to take his story. stick and he would like wrap both sides of the goalposts like it was this kind of very intricate

Jesse it was like this intricate routine let's say they were about to do a face off and he would take a stick and he would like wrap it against the the crossbar the crossbar sorry the post like this and then and then get ready and you know who else did that you know who else did that every kid who got stuck playing goal in road hockey man you couldn't like you couldn't start the game because we all had to do and it's just again it was classic hexstall because every other goal what do they do, right? They talk to their posts. They think their pose.

This guy's like just physically assaulting them, just beating the crate. You better be there for me tonight. It was, man, it was, it was fantastic. It was also the first goalie to put the, bring the water bottle out, put it on top of the net. That was another elevation. And, yeah, turned into a whole, whole issue in the Stanley Cup final because Glenn Sather complained about it. Glenn Sather, the Oilers had the famous that he was like, what are we going to bring a roasted chicken out for them to snack on? next like you know get them out of there so uh it was uh it was a whole big uh controversy so yeah

good old ron hextel man i don't die i'm i'm saying this is the most pro ron hextel podcast has been recorded in the last few years right there's like penguins and fire man now who only know him as like a front office guy and they're like come on it's uh you've been beaten up long enough ron this it's both time you got some uh some positive uh some positive coverage yeah we we could bring in josh yoi and rob rossi here to uh to round out the round table. Yeah, Sean just talk for 20 minutes about how great a job Ron Hextel did.

What do you think? Point, counterpoint. You know, you and I, Sean, we were part of a little roundtable that we dropped on the athletic Wednesday. You, me, Dan, Daniel Nujiboman, who covers the Oilers, Julian McKenzie, who covers the flames. And I jokingly, I think in our Slack channel, referred to it as like the, when I say,

the panel of the Eternal Dam. Yeah, something like that. Yeah. Something like that. Because Ottawa, Toronto, Edmonton and Calgary are all off to suboptimal starts and in the case of Edmonton

it feels like it's a full-fledged panic in the case of Ottawa it feels like it's getting close Malays might be the best word to use to describe Toronto in Calgary where it's just sort of this sort of unumbed to it all but as we were putting that together the task was state the reason

why team X and their fan base should be the angriest coming away from that who does have the right right now to be the angriest And like I said, I think it's tough for me to make the case that it's the Leaves. And it has not been great in Toronto for sure. They've, you know, the record's okay, six, four and two, but they've had three big comeback wins. They've had, you know, shootout win over the abs, that sort of thing, where it's like, you know, they're not clicking at all.

and the ways that they're losing or the ways that they're not playing well are all the same ways that we're all worried about heading in the season. So it's it's kind of like, here we go again if you're a Leafs fan. That said, I don't know that we can touch what was happening in Calgary, at least until they won the last couple of games. And what's happening right now in Ottawa, if the senators win tonight in Toronto probably flips that script and now we're back to panic. Time more for the Maple Leafs. But I got to say, Like really, I think we all have to kind of bow our heads in the direction of the Edmonton Oilers right now because I can't, I mean, they're the worst team of the four had the highest expectations, I would argue, of the four. And it really does feel like, you know, not that it's not that it's already too late for them. Because again, they have to play it like what, like a hundred and five point pace to get back. That's doable for that team. But you look at the contract situations coming up and the extensions. and everything and the Jack Campbell

scenario and now it's, you know, is it going to be the coach? Is it going to be this or that? They feel like there may be two or three games away and maybe it's not even that because they got San Jose tomorrow and oh boy, I mean, you can't even imagine it. But if they lose to San Jose,

oh boy, they might clinch it as far as the worst of the four. They might have us all beat permanently at that point because I can't imagine there's any anything lower as a rock bottom than that. Man. Jesse,

I'm curious, too, about the Jack Campbell stuff, as Sean mentioned. You know, you don't often see a goalie with that much term left on his deal and a team just basically washing their hands. You know, Ottawa did that. You know, Ottawa did that with Matt Murray. So it's not like it isn't unprecedented, but it is the nuclear option, right? Like, we can agree this is the new. This is, this is detonating the relationship in all likelihood.

But do you ever see a path to Jack Campbell getting it back? Or do you just think, you know, this position is so predicated on confidence that this young man, I just don't think he has it. It feels like he's a broken goaltender. Does he ever get it back? It's going to be tough. I mean, I agree with you. It feels like he's a broken goalie.

And to me, he's in a situation. I was just having this conversation the other day. I just feel like there is not a harder job in the NHL than the goalie of the Edmonton Oilers. for multiple reasons. I think you have a loose team in front of you. It's a good team. Even when they're playing well, they're still a loose team that gives up big chances.

And the expectation is so high. So you've got really high expectations. You've got a team that doesn't do you any favors in front of you. And then when you don't play well, the pressure and the outside scrutiny is higher than pretty much anywhere. I just think that combination is why this team can. can't find a goalie that plays well. I mean, even Skinner, I was very high on Skinner after last year. And then he comes into this season and he's really struggling. And I'm just starting to think

it's not the goalies. They, I mean, for a while there, you could say they haven't brought the talent in, but Campbell was doing fine in Toronto. He had looked like it was such a great story, right? Like he had finally found it. He had turned things around. And he's a talented goalie. I don't think the goalies are the problem in Edmonton. And because of that and because Jack Campbell is signed to such a long-term deal and now he's in their HL affiliate Bakersfield, it just, I don't see an easy route to him getting back on his feet and being a the starting, a $5 million goalie that they want him to be. And now if you're Edmonton, you've got, he's counting three and a half million towards the cap to play in Bakersfield. And you bring up Calvin Pickard, who is not the solution. He hasn't had a safe percentage above

900 since I think 2017. So it's been a while. I just, and like, it's on Stuart Skinner to, to pull himself up and be as good as he was last year. And I think it's tough, playing behind a team that's not playing that well with all the scrutiny they've had. That is such a tough situation. I do not envy anyone playing goalie for the Edmonton Oilers. It is like, it's not, it's not McKenzie Blackwood in San Jose, where it's just a firing squad every night. But McKenzie Blackwood can let in some goals and it's not the end of the world. Like the expectation isn't there for him to be perfect every night. It's such a tough situation for Campbell. And in terms of, I wasn't part of the panel for Angriest, I think that it's interesting. Like Edmonton,

the expectations were so high. I feel like that's the easy answer. They should be the angriest. They were the Stanley Cup favorites. And now they're like, like Sean said, they're the worst of the teams. But to me, like, if you're an Edmonton fan, at least there's hope, right? The talents there, you've got two of the best players on the planet. Like, they were just in the conference final. There's still some hope that they can turn this around and have a fantastic season. I think if you look at Calgary and Ottawa, the hope is obviously a lot less that they can do that.

And it's almost none now. And every game that goes by, the hope gets less and less. I feel like I would be angrier in that situation. If you told me you can be a fan of one of these two teams, I'd be more angry in the hopeless situation that we keep saying this is going to be Ottawa's year where they're good and they just aren't. And I would rather be an Oilers fan that has at least the hope that we've got two superstars that can turn this thing around.

Yeah. It's a great point. Sean, before we let you go, I think you actually have a unique perspective on Jack Campbell, too, because he was Toronto's goalie before he goes to Edmonton. Like, did you, like, when they signed the five times five, like, did you think that was just a massive overpay or did you think, you know what? Maybe this will work out. Like, like, you go back to the end of Jack Campbell's era in Toronto. Did you, did you ever think it was going to end this way for him in Edmonton?

No, it's, first of all, by all accounts, he's a great guy. So it stinks to watch this play out. I mean, it's hard not to root for him. It was a strange situation because he had some very decent stretches in Toronto. And that last year, he was great for half the season and then not very great for half the season. And it didn't seem like they made any effort at all to lock him in, which seems strange. I will tell you, when the Oilers signed him to that five-year, $5 million deal, it wasn't the $5 million that worried me. It was the five-year.

It was that commitment, that long-term commitment. because, you know, I was sitting there going, you know, make change the scenery, go somewhere to, you know, play with it's Carter McDavid's team. They're going to be a cup contender for years. They're going to be all good. He'll be fine. But man, if it doesn't work out, they're really locked in.

And they are. And it's tough. Let me just throw this at you before I ditch on you. Jack Campbell plus something of decent value. for John Gibson. Who says no? Gibson's got the bigger contract. They're both the same length.

Campbell, you can bury in the minors. Obviously, Gibson's a better goalie right now, having a good season. If I'm Edmonton, I'm Ken Holland, I'm desperate for my job.

I'm interested. If I'm Anaheim, I may be saying, this is my one chance to get out from under a deal that's maybe even worse. Is I, forget who says no.

Is anyone slamming the phone down on that? But if you're Anaheim, Jesse and I were talking about this, like, just before we came on the air. Anaheim's having like a real fun. And I'm not saying they're a playoff team. I don't want to, but if you trade John Gibson in the next two weeks, you're basically putting up the white flag on the season, aren't you? For Jack Campbell? And I don't know that you can do that. Although the backup, who I barely have even heard of is playing just as well as John Gibson.

I mean, this is that tough thing, right? Like you always, you look at last year, right? It was, oh, we can never, the sharks can never get out from this Eric Carlson contract. And then he had a great year. And you're like, oh, maybe we can. And then they didn't get all that much for them. Sometimes you got to jump at the opportunity to get out from these deals when you can't. Although, you get in Jack Campbell back, it's as bad a deal or worse.

But, you know, I'm just, you know, you know me. I'm a helper. I'm trying to put stuff out there. You know, I don't want to just sit here and criticize kid Holland. I'm going to offer some suggestions. Well, make the call is all I'm saying. I don't think the John, I think the Campbell contract is infinitely worse than the John Gibson contract. I don't think the John Gibson contract's that bad. And I think I'm probably,

I'm in the minority there. 6.5 for a guy who has not been a net positive goalie in four or five years until the last couple weeks. That's me ignoring the stats because he plays behind an embarrassment of a defense. And they've been better this year. They've been better. And they're not, they're not a defensive stalwart. Look at their numbers. They aren't the kings or the knights shutting everyone down. But they've just been an actual hockey team. They've been a functioning hockey team with players that know where they're supposed to go.

And suddenly John Gibson's good again. It's like, oh my God, it's almost like he was good the whole time. And he just can't stop everything behind this sieve of a defense. My opinion of Gibson is higher than most. And I think that that contract's just fine. And I agree with Ian, like, if the Ducks want to win and they've played well enough through the first month to at least give their GM the option of thinking that's possible to make the playoffs. And you mentioned Lucas Dostle. He's been awesome.

He was one of my goalie breakout candidates this year. I actually nailed one. So I'm glad I didn't whiff on all of them. He's been very good. And I think he could be a starter down the road. But right now, if you're the Ducks, if you want to make the playoffs, you got to keep John Gibson. And trading for Campbell would just, like Ian said, you're throwing that away. All right.

Well, I like that at the very least, we got the ducks a new marketing slogan. The Anaheim Ducks, a functional hockey team. Functional hockey team. What a catch. Yeah, love it. All right. Sean, thanks for dropping by. We look forward to hitting up or catching up with you again next week.

Right on. Thanks, guys. There go, Sean McAdoo. Down goes Brown, leaving us with a question to ponder, a trade proposal. I love it. And I love to hear from our listeners, too. If you're an Anaheim fan, Edmonton fan, any fan, who says no to that proposal that Sean threw out, which is essentially Jack Campbell to Anaheim, I'm sorry, yeah, Jack Campbell to Anaheim for John Gibson,

and that Edmonton would have to add a sweetener or something to balance it out. Boy, well, here we go. That plus is going to have to be pretty major to take on Campbell. Says Michael, Ducks are hoping to be okay, at least in a few years. I agree, too. Like I think the message you would send is not a great one. Anaheim, they got the good vibes going right now. Don't mess with it.

Maybe in two weeks we can revisit it if they lose four or five and they fall back to it, but not now. They would be like Vancouver all of a sudden being like, you know what, now's the time to trade J.T. Miller or just something that, you know what? Don't mess with anything right now. That's all. Yeah.

Speaking of Vancouver, how nice is it that they aren't part of that panel right there for once? There may not be an angrier. There may not be an angrier fan base, like since I've been old enough to watch hockey than the connect. It's nice for them to not be part of that conversation. They are fun to watch. They're awesome right now.

Thatcher Demcos playing out of his mind. They're scoring goals. When I turn on the games every night, that's one of the teams I'm constantly drawn to because they play fun hockey. Well, because I mean, Quinn Hughes is playing at an elite level. And it's only a 10 or a dozen games. But, you know, Peters, Elias Peterson is flying. Quinn Hughes is flying. Dempco is flying.

Bessers looking a little bit more confident. Like everything, like when you're, it's amazing. When your best players are your best players, how simple this game can look sometimes. And it's good for Vancouver. Let's wrap up the show. It's interesting, right? Because now when you're paying attention to some of the NHL insiders,

like the Pier LeBron's of the world, Patrick Kane's name is coming up. And that Patrick Kane has been working out. And at some point, he's going to, you know, kind of create a short list. And then he's going to choose a destination. He's going to finish out the season. He's basically going to be like a hired gun, right?

So as we look around the league, I mean, and the thing is, Jesse, is I look at cap-friendly. I mean, there's so many, like the team you cover Vegas, they're capped out, Colorado, capped out, Tampa capped out. So a lot of these legit heavyweights,

they don't have the room to potentially bring in a Patrick Cate. Now, the Rangers, they do, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, they've got some room, right, to play with because of a little bit of LTIR or whatever. but like where do you see Patrick Kane ending up here if if he's got if he's got a choice where does Patrick Kane end up? I mean, I think you nailed it right there with like the Rangers seem like the team. There aren't very many teams that are good enough to want to add a player like that and have room to add the player. They they are one of the few fits and I think the Rangers are obviously off to a very good start.

they're going to be in the thick of the playoff chase and being a contender for the cup all season long. So I think they're, to me, they're the obvious choice. And for one, a team that would want Patrick Kane and two, a team that Patrick Kane would want to go play for. And maybe has the dollars. I mean, the other thing is one of these teams could make a trade, like covering Vegas, I've learned just because there isn't cap space today means pretty much nothing.

There can be cap space tomorrow very easily if we want there to be. So maybe there's a team out there that has a, a guy that's not performing that they can, that they can trade to make some space for Patrick King. Yeah, I know for now they have the, the Rangers of the space, but again,

that's, you know, predicated on some injuries. You know, I'd love to see him end up, which I think would be fun, is Florida. And,

you know, the Panthers are a fun team that got to the cup final last year. I don't know where they are as a team right now. I don't even, I'm not even sure I can say that they're a guaranteed lock it in playoff team, but I'd love to see Patrick Kane go to South Florida and maybe give that program a little bit of an injection and say, you know what?

Like, yeah, we believe this is the year. This is the team, right? Yeah, I think another team along those lines. Yeah, I totally agree. I think he's a good fit there. And I think they could use some scoring boost. Another team that, again, with the cap space, it's not going to be easy. But I think Carolina is off to a little bit of a slow start.

and I think that they've got a lot of guys that can play with Patrick Kane, right? Like they have a lot of skilled fast players. I think Patrick Kane would be a good fit there. They tried with Max Patch Ready last year, kind of a similar situation where let's bring in that one guy to come in. And obviously, Patch Ready couldn't stay healthy enough to be that guy. But I think Carolina is a team that is looking for one more score. I think Kane fits that.

The Panthers are in Washington on Wednesday night. Interesting, Gabe. You know what? nobody's talking about the capitals came out of the gate they looked slow did the backstream story never was like well that's the end of Washington they've won four of five and they're you know they're they're they're still waiting on patcher ready and they're still like i don't know but if Washington wins on wednesday if Washington beats florida i'm not i'm not here to make any crazy proclamations that

Washington is a playoff team or whatever i'm just here to say if they beat florida and go to six four and one to start the year. year, I think it's time we look a little differently at Washington. And maybe we don't just, we don't just automatically say you're done. Maybe they, maybe they have worked their way back into the bubble of the conversation. Because they're kind of sitting where I think, Jesse, a lot of people thought the penguins would be sitting. Like full credit for the caps. They're five, four and one to start the year when everybody ruled the, you know, and this isn't the Ovechkin show, right?

He's got two goals. It's interesting. I feel like we do this so often in hockey more than any other sport where we we like proclaim the team is done. And they aren't like the Bruins obviously was like the extreme example last year. But the Capitals have really talented players that we are just projecting their age is going to catch up to them. Right. Like it's not like the Capitals had this exodus where they lost all their talented players. Like it's the same guys that have been in the playoffs basically every year forever.

And we're just assuming that this. is the year that they're going to be a really bad team because those guys are all going to be old. And maybe they aren't quite as old and slow as we thought they were going to be. They know how to win. They have solid goal-tending. That's where it all starts for me. Darcy Kemper's been pretty good this year. He's got solid backups, Lindgren.

They're not great, but they're good enough to give him nights off. I don't think they're a bad team at all. And I think they can be a bothersome team that can possibly be around that bottom, like that bubble of the playoffs, like you said. They're not an easy out. I don't think any team is looking on the schedule and saying, oh, good, we play Washington. That'll be an easy night. Yeah.

Andy, a viewer is saying, Ovechkin's shot doesn't look scary anymore. Maybe not as intimidating. Yeah, two goals in 10 games for Alex Ovechkin. The other two games on the schedule on Wednesday, Jesse just happened to involve the two teams that we cover. Let's start with the Vegas Golden Knights. Pacific Division heavyweight battle on our hands Wednesday night.

Vegas, the last time they had a, what we hyped up is a heavyweight battle. they showed up against the avalanche. I mean, they showed up. Can they do it again this time against L.A.? And L.A. is going to have something to prove because I think the Kings are probably looking at this game as a measuring stick more so than Vegas.

Yeah, I totally agree that I think this game is more important for the Kings than it is for the Golden Knights. The Golden Knights already went to L.A. and won a game this year. So they've kind of proven themselves, obviously that game against Colorado. But I remember going into that game against Colorado. and we were kind of talking to Bruce Cassidy and he said, no, I, like, we don't know how they're going to show up. And he goes, no, actually, I do. They're going to show. The players are going to show up. These are the types of games they show up for. We always play well in these types of games. And they did. Seven nothing. I don't expect that to be the case tonight. L.A. is a much tighter defensive team. They aren't going to Jared Bednar after that game said the difference between Vegas and Colorado right now is Vegas makes you beat them. They don't hand you opportunities.

and we aren't that right now. And he's totally right. The avalanche forced play. They forced action. They were overly aggressive and they pinched in spots they shouldn't. They tried to make passes they shouldn't. And Vegas took advantage every single time and made them pay. The kings are the opposite.

They are going to make you earn every goal you score on Los Angeles. You earned that goal. They play the one three one. They muck up the neutral zone. They make it so difficult on you. So I expect it's kind of a similar game measuring stick, two of the top teams in the West, but I expect a totally different looking game tonight in terms of this will be a tight checking game.

It'll look like a playoff game. The teams are going to be checking tight. There's not going to be a lot of space. You're going to have to probably score some dirty goals. But I think Vegas is going to be up for it. I can't wait. It's going to be a really fun one. Okay, playoff game.

That means Vegas scores nine. That's the way it works. You know, it's funny. Like, L.A. was here last week. And I also saw L.A. the week before in Arizona. And the one thing, Jacob Chikrin told me last week, I asked them, I said, like, what makes L.A. so good? Because L.A. came in here.

Jesse and granted, Ottawa, I think it's just struggled a little bit with our identity. But they were just so unbelievable in the neutral zone. They didn't give up anything. They're just airtight. And Chikrin said after the game, he's like, they just don't ever get away from their structure. Ever. Like, they don't ever deviate from the plant. And that's what makes the vaguses and the Bostens.

and to some extent, L.A., that's what makes them good, is that ability, every team has structure, every team has a game plan, but how many of them stick with it for 45 to 60 minutes a night? Usually you can count on one hand, and that's the difference. The Ottawa's and those teams in the mushy middle, they'll give you 27 good minutes, but then they'll deviate from the structure for half an hour, and that's what gets them every time, every time. Yep. To me, this L.A. Vegas game is the game of the night in terms of on the ice, like you said, Class of Titans.

The game with the juiciest storylines is in Toronto. It's Ottawa, Toronto, and this has nothing to do with the provincial rivalry, but I'll say this. I do not want to be the coach of the team that loses tonight. I don't want to have to face the media because there's going to be some tough questions. It doesn't matter. There's no way the losing team on Wednesday walks,

away and they're like feeling good about the game like it's a moral victory like you know what we're getting there no one's feeling that way it's desperation time in ottawa they need to win and in toronto they were real darn lucky they came back to be Tampa on Monday because jesse if they don't win that game and they don't storm back and matthews doesn't go full matthews we're having a different conversation today they they eat that one out the loser of this game on wednesday it is not going to be a fun ride for them because the fan base is going to get super agitated here. Who do you think has more pressure? I think oddly it's Ottawa because you know why?

And it's because of the nature of what's happening in Ottawa with the crowd kind of getting on the coach and the players understandably kind of getting a little testy and everyone's getting ordered in Toronto. It's almost like they're just shrugging their shoulders like, here we go again, except you know, the way you guys usually play in April is the way you're playing in November. Like that's, that's the difference. Whereas in Ottawa, they're like, we're dying for a chance to play in April. It's just that our season always is submarine in November.

It's just this weird mix of what's happening here. But it's, yeah, it should be, yeah, man, it should be a fun. Look at it. We got a viewer saying, I'm popping the edibles for Ottawa, Toronto. I'm too nervous. Go, Sends go. Popping the edibles. Sounds like a great night of hockey.

There you go. Just be chill about it. Just see whatever happens. That's the deal. All right. We'll leave it there. I just want to give you a chance before we let you go. Anything fun that obviously you cover the golden nights, but sometimes you work on other

features and other cool stories. Anything you want us to kind of keep an eye on that you might have coming down the line here or anything. This is anything you need some help from the audience to give you some direction for a story that you're thinking about. Anything like that. Well, I mean, now that you mention it, if like honestly, like I'm kind of taking on the goalie beat this year.

I'm absolutely loving it and writing a lot of goalie stuff. If anyone out there has goalie questions, whether it's technical stuff. Yeah. Anything that you think would be a good story that you want to see, let me know. And I'll write it. Actually, along those lines, and I don't know, and I apologize if you've done this, but have you ever done a goalie mailbag, so to speak, where let's say, okay. So here's what we do.

Here's how we do it. Oh, not we, you. This is your beat. Here's what we're going to do, Jesse, is you throw out a mailbag, say, call it the goalie mailbag. And you're probably going to get a lot of parents whose daughters and sons play goalie and are looking for technical advice, equipment advice, mental advice. And they fire in all their questions. Then you take, you know, six or seven of them.

And then over the course of two or three weeks, you ask different goalies around the league to answer the questions. And then you say, you have questions for goalies. I got the answers. I love it. I love it. Done. It's happening. That's on the budget.

Talk to my editor now. There we go. But let's do it. What is actually, yeah, what actually is on the docket, though, this is great timing. Tomorrow coming out, I've been working on it for basically since the season started. I'm really excited for it. Golly tandem power rankings. We have, we've, yeah, we've done goalie power rankings a million times.

Every website on the planet has done it. But it's always just the individuals. And as the NHL goes more. towards tundams. It's, we saw with the Golden Knights last year, it's more important the group of goalies you have more than ever than it is just having one superstar starter and just who cares about the backup.

You can't win games like that anymore. You have to have not just to win the games that your backup plays, but you've got to have a good enough backup to give your starter the rest he needs. You have to be confident in the backup to lighten the workload so that you can have your guy at his best when the season comes. So the way the NHL is going, I decided I think it's better to rank them as tandems. Most of them are two.

There are a few teams with three, surprisingly, this year. But yeah, goalie tandem power rankings comes out tomorrow morning on the athletic. I'm really excited about it. Okay. And you know what? Those always spark off, they spark a debate, right? Like people like, my team is too high or too low. Yep.

And all of that. I love it. So yeah, that's great. Looking for it. And is this going to be like an ongoing thing? Like so like, you know, at the halfway mark, you kind of redo them? Yeah, that's the plan. Obviously not as not as often as like the regular power rankings every week.

The goal is don't change that much from week to week. But yes, I think a couple times a season and maybe going into the playoffs, we can do like power ranking the tank, the playoff tandem. Just here and there throughout the year, it's going to be fun. I'm really looking forward to it. Yeah, looking forward to reading it and seeing where where auto ends up. And I'm thinking it might be in the bottom third the way the season is gone for them so far. All right.

Hey, Jesse, thanks for pinch hitting here, man. This is a really fun hour. This 60 minutes just flew by today. Yeah, you make things easy. Being your co-host is about as easy as a job as it gets. I love coming on here. Oh, love having you. And I want to thank everybody for hanging out with us for the last hour or so

and listening to this Wednesday edition of The Athletic Hockey Show. Follow us on your favorite podcast platform. Leave us a rating review. Jesse, myself, Julian, all, everybody in all. We all appreciate that. You can follow us on YouTube.com slash at the Athletic Hockey Show. I want to let you know a little programming note. your next edition of the athletic hockey show will come your way Monday next week.

I'm jetting off to Europe to cover the Sweden series with the Ottawa Senators. So it'll be Mark Lazarus, Julian McKenzie with you. You're going to try to do a live show Monday, 2.30 Eastern time. Until then, have a great week, and we'll talk to you next week.