The Athletic Hockey Show - 'Humble' Avs advance and have the Maple Leafs just delayed the inevitable?

Episode Date: May 1, 2024

Sean and DGB breakdown the Colorado Avalanche steamrolling over Winnipeg, eliminating a shell shocked Connor Hellebuyck and the Jets in five games. The guys talk about a complete effort by the Maple Leafs in game 5 against a Bruins team that looked nervous. They look back on the Hurricanes eliminating the Islanders with New York's goaltending being questioned, and Nashville extending their series with the Canucks with a controversial goalie interference goal from Roman Josi.Plus, they discuss the Norris Trophy finalists, Quinn Hughes, Cale Makar and Roman Josi, and look ahead to Wednesday's games, involving Pierre Luc Dubois' LA Kings and the Edmonton Oilers and the Dallas Stars vs the Vegas Golden Knights. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. Good afternoon. This is the Wednesday edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. Tushans, no Franks. Repeat. The suspects are frankless. DGB, what's up? How's it going?

Guy, it feels like the first round of the playoffs, man. When did we last talk? Seven days ago. A year ago. What were you? It's probably more recently than that. What was even happening back then? Well, I remember one thing that was happening.

So let's start with what I learned this week. What have we learned, Sean? I learned not listen to you when it comes to what's going to happen in the playoffs because I was promised Leafs in five. Leafs in five. That was the... My original plan was to pivot. My original pivot was just a pivot to say that I was predicting that they were in fact going to lose in five.

Oh, yeah. I didn't specify whether they would win or lose. He said that something would happen. Something would happen in five. Well, yeah, nothing is happening in five. I guess what I think what happened, your mic cut up, you were going to say Leafs win in overtime game five. And it just, you know, it just Neil Armstrong got its way to what we got. Give me the outside review.

Give me the, I'm not, you're actually objective and not just pretending to be on Leafs Bruins. If they would have won that game in a little bit of a different fashion, if the Bruins would have looked a little bit less bad, I would just sort of, I'd be like, okay, like, let's just, well, let's wait a couple days and finish this, and finish this up in six. but there was something about the way Boston played yesterday and there was something about the way Jim Montgomery reacted during the game the way they came out as stiff as they looked as stiff as they looked

as pissed as Montgomery was where I was like this if it were a if they were playing a different team I would be like this is echoes of last season this is echoes of the Panthers meltdown I don't think I can get there yet because of who the opponent echoes versus echoes this is This is... It's the Echo Bowl. Yeah.

It's... Man, what do you... Because, look, I... In that long, long, long week, since the last time we talked, which was the day after the Leafs had won game, too, it had been the Austin Matthews game. We're all going,

what can stop this Austin Matthews guy? Mm-hmm. Found out. Then the Leafs lose two, at home, panic. obituaries are written everybody's already obituaries are written by

by who is who now? Various cheap hacks are getting their digs in we're already got me we got the boxes all packed in in Sheldon Keith's office ready to send him

out and I think in the back of everyone's mind was yet But this did happen to Boston last year. And now not only did it happen to Boston last year, it happened to Boston last year, starting with a game five overtime loss. I mean, it's got to be in the back of your mind, right? I'm telling you, did Montgomery not look like a dude at the podium last night who was thinking about 2020? Like, he looked, he looked, it was, it was, it went beyond just being typical, you know,

coach comes out and talks after, after a flat effort. Like, he looked a little bit more shook than I was anticipating. I don't know if that means anything. I'm not going to project out and say that that's, you know, that that, that, and he looked like a dude. He was going to lose two more, but he was, the story going around was that he has been all over them this week, even up three to one. That he was really, like that the practices were rough.

He was really hammering them that, you know, essentially that whatever went wrong last year was not going to happen again, whether they took the foot off the gas, whether they, whatever it was. He, he seemed like a guy who was really, you know, we are going to finish it this time. And then that first period was so brutal. I think you could argue convincingly that the only dude he even came close to bringing it over the course of the first 20 minutes was Marchand. That was it. He looked like he was trying to drag them into the fight

and they didn't follow. Right? So I don't know, man. That was all signs. It is just fascinating to me to watch the narratives. Mm-hmm. It's amazing. Flip onto the other team. Because this is not something that is a Leafs fan that has happened in any of these playoff runs where it's suddenly it feels like the daggers pointed in the other direction.

Or at least getting ready to. You know, certainly still a big story in both this series and last year for the Leafs is they don't win at home. So, right. And now they're going back home and it's, okay, here we go again. but I mean if they I said on a but I mean there's something about the Leafs losing

and Leaf fans being sad that my phone starts ringing off the hook and everybody wants me on the podcast on the radio on everything and I said in a bunch of places I said the leafiest thing now that they're down 3-1 and everyone's writing them off would be a win game 5 and game 6 and then go and get their doors kicked in in game 7

and I still think that but if this does end up back in Boston in the game seven like there's going to be can both teams be playing scared to lose can both teams be squeezing the sticks

and all that game was not good yesterday like I think I think the first I thought it was pretty good yeah sure I mean you're that's true and got to realize my audience here I thought in terms of like I thought the level of play in the first few periods was awful because it was

it was one and a half teams who looked terrified to lose. I mean, like, but truly, you know, just for a taste of what the vibe was like coming into that game, I had somebody asked me yesterday morning, like, if that when Sheldon Keefe ended up as the coach of the penguins, whether he would deserve it. You know what I mean? Like, that's where we were. We were planning ahead to the point. We're not just, we're not just that, you know, that the series was over, but that Keith had gotten axed

and that Mike Sullivan had gotten flipped to the devils and the Dubus had hired, had hired his boy again. Like that's where we were yesterday. And now we're sitting here talking like, well, you know, but how about, how about this? Like on you watching that game.

Okay. And you're watching the actual performance and trying to strip the narrative and what came before, what's come before in the series away. Like what happened on ice in that, in those three periods,

those three plus periods. to make you think that this could work out. Like was there was there some element in play? Was there something you saw where you were like, all right, this is viable. They have a chance to pull this off. Yeah. Now, starting with the obvious, no Austin Matthews on the road in the playoffs. That's, we know the blueprint, right?

You simplify it at that point. You're not looking to win six to five. This is two to one is a totally acceptable result under those circumstances. There's been a lot of talk about how the Leafs don't score in the playoffs, and that is a major issue. But in this particular game, keep it simple, you know, avoid the big mistake. I think, you know, when you look at what happened that maybe gives you new hope, start with the obvious, which is Joseph Wall and Net.

They finally make that switch as far as giving him the first start. So now you're not looking at, oh, you know, our goalie had one good game. Now you're looking at our goalie's only game since he's coming to this series was a real good one. And he played, you know, he didn't steal the game, but played really well, especially in overtime, had a couple of big saves. So maybe that gives you a little bit of confidence seeing some of the guys, you know, Max Domi had the game, they were making a big deal of the faceoffs and that. But the fact that he's playing center and I'm playing it well, Mitch Marner, the guy that everybody has been dumping on for the last few days, had a good game, not a great one, not a dominant one. It's not the Mitch Marner game, but he had the game to get him maybe closer to back to where he needs. And, you know, see Matthew Nye score a big goal and sort of step up in the opportunity.

you know, there were little tiny pieces of it. Now, still, this is still a team that they can't score in the playoffs, they can't win at home, they're playing a good Bruins team, and they're missing their best player. And at this point, who even knows what the status is for the rest of the series and even beyond for Austin Matthews. So there's plenty of signs of pessimism if you're looking for him. But the flip side is, man, you get. get that one more win and suddenly it's very feeling very, very dicey in Boston. It's funny.

It's like if the Leafs are playing any other team, I'd be like, yeah, probably not going to happen. And if Bruins, and if three nothing to the Panthers last year came out, played good, game four, won the game, just delayed the inevitable. Right. And if the Bruins are playing any team other than the Leafs, I would say, it's probably not going to happen. So, like, something has to move here. One of these teams is going to have to defeat the vibes. The stoppable force versus the movable object. And we got to see what's going to happen.

But, I mean, I just, can I just, let me just look, because I was looking at it right now. Okay. Last year, Leif's and, last year, Leifes and, sorry, Bruins and Panthers, game one. Boston wins only gives up one goal. against the least this year. Boston wins. Only gives up one goal. Game two, Boston loses at home.

Series tied 1-1. This year, Boston loses at home. Game three, Boston goes on the road, wins game three by a final score of four to two. Sean, you'll never guess. This year. Oh, my God. Boston goes on the road wins. Game three, four to two.

Game four, Boston still on the road, wins again. Scores three times as many goals as the other team. I can't believe you do it. comes back home up three to one in the series game five uh-oh the loss at home in overtime how did you like you you buried the you buried the lead how did you not i asked for reasons for optimism how did you not open with that that's that's the best one yet now in case people are wondering and and i don't maybe this is a spoiler alert maybe people should should be skipping ahead.

Game 6 last year of that Boston, Florida series, that was the really weird 7-5 game. That was the one where people were starting to really panic about Linus L'Anse L'L mark because they'd used him every game and then he just went out and he'd get shelled, which led to the very strange

decision to start Jeremy swaying in game 7. I say very strange, not that it was the wrong decision, but just you almost never see a team make that switch at that point. Going into a game seven. So I don't admit maybe we do see a big something. He's back in.

They've reeled them back in. The Toronto Maple Leafs have once again suckered Sean McIndoe. They've suckered me in as far as I go, which is I still expect something miserable to happen. Now, all that being said, if they lose the series, six game, seven games, it doesn't really matter. Does it matter? It's still, like, I don't think this changes anything as far as what has to happen next. I don't think you look back and go, well, I mean, Sheldon Keith did get them to win that game five. So, I mean, I don't.

There is a very good chance this is delaying the inevitable. Yeah, which is Shelton Keith coaching the Pittsburgh. Okay. Yeah. I mean, ultimately, I think all that happened here is we didn't get to do as, as, as, as, entertaining a podcast on a Wednesday morning as we could have. I was ready for it, man.

10 and nothing last time. I was geared up. Me too. We did have a series that ended. The abs have advanced. They beat the Jets in game five. A series that started out in a pretty interesting fashion,

I think, with the Yorkie of implosion in game one ends on a little bit of a downbeat. That series was a bit of a dud. And I think that takes me to what I learned this week, which is that people put the cart before the horse, the horse before the cart on this one. I think we were all a little bit too excited about how about the level of play we'd see from Winnipeg, Colorado. And I think that's centered around the Jets. Like it's clear in Marat, Patash wrote something to this effect this morning, or Jets beat writer. the Winnipeg just doesn't have the high end to go at these dudes over the course of a seven game series.

I think that's pretty clear now. And when you have, if you're Colorado, when you have Georgiev who looked like he had a clue, basically starting midway through game two and kind of kept that up through the clincher, and you're getting monster series from Valenachushkin and Arturi Lackinen in major contributions from that second layer of dude, which is something that we were concerned about them coming into the series, right? You say that Nathan McKinnon and Mikhail Rankin and Kelmokar can't do it by themselves. Well, they didn't have to for the first four plus games of that series.

And then what separates Colorado from a lot of teams, and what certainly separates Colorado from Winnipeg, is that finishing kick that they have because of guys like Granting. Like if you can have the Nuchuskens in the Lekinns in the Miles Woods and Jakob Trennan's of the world, sustain you for a little bit, you can rely on the big boys to come through when it counts. And I think we saw that in the third period last night, which was, you know, Mikoretnin and tipping one in and then converting on a six set up from McKinnon to make it 5'3. Like that's the differentiation point for me, right?

is that high end, even though maybe wasn't there for all five games, that's such a trump card that Colorado has, that's such a trump card for other elite teams. And I don't think Winnipeg is in that, is in that group, right? And I think that's why we're sitting here on May 1st, talking about a series that everybody was psyched to go seven and be a battle and be strength against strength and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's why it's over early. is because they're just still one guy away. And that hurts because they thought they had the horses this year, especially after being aggressive at the deadline and in the lead-up.

They end up only getting the one assist from Sean Monaghan. Tyler Tully had the goal last night and he looked all right, but just didn't add up to what it needs to be. And this is, I mean, losing in the first round is always devastating to a team on some level. But this one feels like it really hurts a lot because this, you know, you look at how this whole year played out for Winnipeg's going back to last summer. This time last summer, we're all going, well, that's it for the Jets. They got to get, you know, you got to, you got to tear them up now, even if you don't want. want to because you have no choice because the stars don't want to sign there. They're not going

to come back. You're going to lose guys. Then they get those guys signed. It's Shifley and Hellebuck signed. We're talking about Connor Hellebuck to the Sabres or the Devils at this time last year, right? Like, that was that was a thing. How are you going to do it? How are you going to make that move? Doesn't end up happening. They get the guys locked in. They bring back Rick Bonas. You know, they make the Peer-Luk-Bois trade. And, you know, another guy that people are saying, he's gone, he's going to walk, you know, he doesn't want to be there. They make the trade with L.A. And everyone kind of goes, oh, wait a second.

They didn't do so bad on that. That looks okay. They end up putting together a real good season. Halfway through the season, when the vibes are good, suddenly we start hearing these whispers of, hey, we're not selling enough tickets. Maybe this, this for the long term, is there a question here? And, I mean, we all know when you see something like that. Well, we know what sells tickets in NHL winning.

Go on a nice long playoff run. win the Stanley Cup, you're going to not have any ticket problems, any long-term problems for the franchise for a very long time. And instead, they play great. All year long, finish second in a very, very tough, top-heavy division. And here's your reward. You get to play the Colorado Avalanche in round one. And I think a lot of us were thinking two things. And I can't, I don't even remember if I picked Winnipeg or not, but I certainly thought about it. I certainly, you know, going into the series felt like when the Jets had had a really good good shot at it, which you're thinking two things.

You're thinking, all right, Colorado's kind of been up and down this year. Boy, I hope, from a Jets perspective, I hope that's real and that's not just the abs doing what champions sometimes do, which is taking the foot off the gas a bit when they know they need to. And then the other thing is you're saying, well, the goal to ending is going to be the story of the series. and it kind of was. It was.

Just not in the way that anybody could have reasonably predicted because the Colorado Avalanche score five goals each and every game. I mean, I think the last time we talked, it may have been after game one where the Jets win that game seven to six.

And I remember thinking, probably saying, this is especially tough for Colorado because you're not going to get five or six goals on Connor Hallibuck the rest of the series. So you did it one. time and you still lost.

Well, it turns out they did it every single night. And the guy who's going to get the Vezan in a couple of weeks is probably the worst goaltender of the first round. By a lot of metrics, yeah, absolutely. I think the light bulb for me went off there, and I mentioned this earlier with regards to Giorgiyev and was in game two. They're trading goals again for the first two periods of that. And I'm sitting there, you know, not ready to bury Giorgiyev or anything.

necessarily, but you know, I'm like this, they got a problem here is, is the thought process. And then you look at the score and you're like, wait a second. Like this is the second straight game in a, like there's another guy on the other end

of the ice who is also responsible for alternating goals in this series, right? It's crazy to me. I had Avalanche fans explaining to me that their nickname for their goaltender this year has been

forgive. Because he's, they always feel like he's going to give up four goals. And I thought, I thought, A, that's funny. B, that's terrible. But now here we are at the end of the series. You know what? For give it was good enough. Four was fine. You could give up four a night.

It turned out. And, and still win. And man, it's, I don't know, maybe it's, maybe it's a Canadian in me, but I have, Hey, kudos Colorado. Great team. Yeah. You know, obvious contenders. And they're going to have a hell of a series next.

Not much of a step back, let's just say. But I just can't stop looking at Winnipeg and going, what now? Like, what do you do now when this is, you know, the goalie has the VES in a year? You know, everything seems to be not that everything was clicking. wasn't one of those years that just everything was going great, but this was what the plan looked like. It was their best possible run at it with the way, with the roster. And it's a game in the season of.

And not only, I mean, we're joking about Boston last year. Look at Winnipeg last year. Do you remember that opening round series? They played Vegas. They look great in game one. They absolutely knock the Golden Knights out of the building. and then they lose four straight. And it happens again.

And I don't know, man. I don't, we, we being, you know, media guy, guys like us can't start dumping narratives on everything that happens two years in a row and calling it a long-term pattern. But given everything that was going on in Winnipeg this year, on and off the ice, to go out this quickly. to a team like Colorado, which, yeah, it's a great team. It is a great team, but they're in your division, man. They're a great team. They're not an old great team. They're a great team in their prime.

Like, this is the path out of this division. It's them and Dallas. And we'll see the other teams come back. Like, where's your long-term vision of, okay, how do we, what did we see in the last week that tells us we're a player or a bounce or whatever it is away from being. able to beat these guys next year. It's brutal. It's tough to find, man.

And then, like, he's, he's, look at the stats, too. It's so funny that, like, Georgiev, even with that Mountown in game one, like, he finishes the series, like, break even on goal saved above expected. Like, the guy is just, he's, like, almost at average safe percentage.

Like, he was good enough. And here we are, right? But, yeah, I don't. So bonus, there's, there's question marks around bonus. there's a team option there. Who knows what the end result of that is? Do they pick it up? Do they mutually agree to, you know, split?

It's a, oh, it's a fair question. He didn't answer the question last night. He basically said, we just lost a playoffs. We just lost in the playoffs, which is like, it's, that's fair on both sides. It's fair to ask the question last night. And it's fair for them to be like, you know, let's take a, let's take a time out here. But yeah, because they're locked in Hellibuck for a long, for a long time, which isn't, necessarily a bad thing. They're locked into Sheifley.

Like, is it necessarily bad? Like, the playoffs are crazy, man. A week ago, like, got Connor Hallibuck, man. That's the whole thing. And now you're like, I guess it's probably not bad. You have the Vesit winner. 30, 35 year old Connor Hallibuck in five years. Like, like that, I don't know. You never know, man. Mark Sheifley didn't, you know, wasn't bad, but didn't have that series. you know, didn't have the, you talk about the high-end talent Colorado. Yeah.

He didn't, if he's their best guy, and I'm not convinced that he is, but he didn't. He's the closest approximation they have, which is a problem on any day. And whenever he, and if he's not, you know, at his best,

that introduces something else to the mix. It's just, it's so brutal for them. And you mentioned this like with the attendant stuff and all that. That after all, the dialogue around the attendance and around the future of the team there, they get three home playoff games out of this.

With home ice advantage at that. Which has not been home ice advantage for them really in this 2.0 era. I mean, I don't have it in front of me, but they have not been. For a building that's as loud as that is great, the whiteout and all this stuff, they haven't had that home ice advantage.

the way that you would like to think. Yakov-Trennan with the ear cup after scoring that goal last night. I think there was something about the abs feeding off, feeding off a little bit of it. Yeah, it's a rough one. You're getting, one Canadian team. Your fans are getting taunted by Yakov-Trenov. Yeah, that's not. Yakov, Yakov, Trennan, Yakov-Jek-Kov-Trennan.

Maybe there is something to this whole thing that we just have to let the Jets wear white at home. maybe having your entire fan base show up in the other team's colors. The other team's colors. It's not doing it. I don't know. Also, some good stuff from McKinnon. We came in really humble this year.

We were really bad down the stretch. We got beat by these guys seven nothing at home. And for whatever reason, it just kind of woke us up. We really need to fix some things. And right now we got every guy playing really hard and playing the right way. The bear may have been poked with Colorado. out of their momentum down the stretch does not matter. Nope.

This is yet another game to game momentum doesn't necessarily matter. They're just as good. You're as good as your goalie is playing. That's like all this stuff is just such a waste of time. It really is. Like we sit here in BS for an hour once a week. And it's all just like, it is the goalie good or is the goalie bad? Whatever team's goalie gets hot is going to win.

That's it. It doesn't. It's a waste of time. That goalie being a Vezina winner and or a career four-string ECHL or makes a small difference. It weights the coin slightly to one side or the other, but that's it. It's an 82 game prologue to five or six or seven games of Goaltender play. That's all this is. And I think people have legitimate trouble coming to terms with that because that's what 90% of it is.

Speaking of goalie plan, luck. Can we talk about a New York Islander team? You talk about having a Vezna candidate. They've got one on the bench for the vast majority of this playoff series. They had one a year ago. Yeah. And then, well, I mean, let's start there. So are we off the Ilyos Rokin as a lead goaltender?

Or are we just? I think I think I'm still on the Ilius Rokin as an above average goaltender. I think that's kind of the difference between an above average guy and an elite guy is that they can stamp out seasons like the one that he just had. And he wasn't he wasn't terrible. He wasn't terrible. But then he wasn't starting. Micro level, it wasn't a crazy decision by Patrick Waugh. And we should state the obvious.

Patrick Waugh, a guy knows a thing or two about goaltending, knows a thing or two about a goalie's mindset in the playoffs, how to win a championship. that stuff. So I'm not necessarily second-guessing him. But how wild is it to, I mean, even a month ago, if you had said, the Islanders are going to go into the playoffs and Ilius Rokin's not going to be the guy. They're going to go Varumov. They're going to go Varumov for a couple of games. They're going to lose those games. There's going to be a game where Varlamov gets pulled, but they go back to him. They go back. Ilyos Rogen does not start a game in the playoffs. And his eight-year contract, kicks in this summer.

Two months from now? Yeah, it's, it's he, even at the start of this series, I think we all thought, okay, it's a fair question. Maybe it's Farlemov's Net at the start, you know, we'll see what happens. Yeah.

After a game or two games or whatever, it is, it became eminently clear. Like you said, midway through that series, that Sorokin was the contingency point at best. if you can even call them that. So for it to end the way that it did is,

it's wild. And Seminvarov was 914 in that series. That's good. It's not great. This isn't, you know, he's not going Tim Thomas where you're like, well, I mean, he's, he's not letting anyone. And like we said, he got himself pulled. He certainly wasn't the reason they lost.

But what does what does I mean? Boy, you talk about how weird goal-tending is. got a guy sitting on the bench who we thought heading into none not even just heading into this season yep who had the resume gonna be a guy was he was he was gonna be a guy for the next for the next five like i remember when he signed that contract uh-huh saying okay you know what every long-term goal tendent contract scares me but if you're gonna give one day anybody That's the guy. A guy is still in his mid-20s.

He's not, this isn't Connor Hallibuck where you're buying those mid-30s years. And he's showing you everything you could want to see. Yep, man. We'll see what happens maybe with a full year of WHA and see what the usage is like at the start of the season. I thought this was a good point by Arthur Stapel, who wrote part of this after the game, you know, doing the quick post-mortem on the aisle season and the loss, Keynes and all that stuff. But the point that Arthur made is that, and nobody watches that team more than him,

is that Sorokin wore down kind of starting in February and that he was overworked. And then once the amount of shots and scoring chances that he saw basically, you know, by the end of the month in February, kind of wore him down to the point where it was noticeable. So then you see him start fewer games down the stretch. You see Varlamov, you know, step up and play. play well and maybe make it a tougher decision. And then by the end of it, or I should say by the start of the series,

you have a rusty goaltender, right? Because he needed those, he needed those breaks down the stretch. So we'll see maybe, you know, what Wad does over the course of an 82 game season versus coming in in January or whatever it was is enough to make a difference. But it's started 55 hours, man. I mean, if you pay in a guy. 55 games, but also how much. How many, how many, exactly, and how many those, it's just, it was just a weird, the workload was strange.

He was on, he was on track to start 65 and then, you know, kind of ran out of gas in February. I'm not saying we should have won this series. I'm saying that, you know, we could go home right now and play game number six easily. And instead, it's over. So it's, it feels empty in the way that, that I thought that we did a lot better than what we got in return. I mean, ultimately, I, that's. a series where we maybe didn't get there the way we thought we would. I'm not surprised.

Yeah, we're circling around the overall point, which is that, you know, I, I don't think, I don't think any of us necessarily expected that to be a seven gamer, right? Carolina is significantly better than the Islanders, regardless of, you know, some points that were maybe made early, early in the series there. and regardless what their fans wanted to believe. Like, those are just teams that are on, that are on a different level. And, and look, it's, if, if you're an Islanders fan,

you're sort of sitting there going, we were right there with these guys. Mm-hmm. You know, to lose the series in five games, it was, it was, it was, it was all one goal games. Yeah. But the first four games, taking away the empty netters,

Carolina had empty netters in the first couple and then both games in New York obviously the overtime game and even game three or one goal games and even last night three three heading into the into the third. So I mean if you're an islanders fan, you're going the gap is not, was not as big as we thought it was,

but it was there. And Carolina is a team that is still in with that window wide open and the islanders is an older team, maybe team that thought could bank on goal tending, maybe. It's a bit of a demoralizing loss there. Sets up a hell of a round two, man.

We're getting the showdown, though. It's tough not, and it's tough not to look at that series, too. And, you know, yeah, that, you know, we had a, the result was close enough in game two, but 110 shot attempts at 28, 39 shots at 12 in that game. That's the one where... I don't know how if you're a team that's as much of a dog as the aisles were coming into that series.

I don't know how you survive that loss. Honestly, knowing the way that canes are built, knowing what they're good at, knowing that you caught them on a bad night. Because if there's one thing Carolina does, it's generate chances and generate zone time and control five on five. You know, that's historically now. That's who they are. the one game where they don't do that, and you still can't get it done, is brutal.

And when you look back at these series, and it's easy to say in hindsight, right? Because we just did it with Jets' abs, too, talking about game two. But when you look back, like it really does feel like in most series you can find the pivot point. And for Isles Canes, man, that's just, I know it's easy to sit here and say that, you know, a comeback like that, or a meltdown like that is is uh is is the crucial point but it was because ultimately aside from aside from the comeback the the aisles did everything they can't everything they could to limit what carolina does best and they can they couldn't get it done right so now and now it's five days after the fact and they're cooked i it shouldn't it shouldn't surprise anybody i think that series

generally followed the script that we that we expected it till yeah any early thoughts on Carolina, New York, the only round two series we know for sure. I mean, I think I'm legally obligated to pick Carolina just just because of, because the way I and other people who work for this website

have gassed them up over the last, over the last, however many years. But it is, it's fascinating. I love, in some ways, I think maybe this is Jets versus abs, right? Where you talk about strength versus strength.

and kind of like complimentary skill sets where one team plays one way and the other team plays the other. You know, Caroline is the five-on-five behemoth who all of a sudden has enough, has enough high-end talent to push through. And the Rangers are, you know, monster special teams, you know, goal-tending, whatever. And all of a sudden, they're seeing it, they've seen an uptick and five-on-five play to make you think that they can hang. That's similar to what happened, even though the specifics maybe aren't aren't the exact same where it's like with uh with it with jet saps right where you have ideas of how a team works and then they improve around the margins and improve elsewhere to make you think that they can that they can go toe to toe like across the

board so i'm i'm fascinated by this one i'm gonna i'm gonna pick the canes like just like i said just just just because you know the the depth there is just overwhelming honestly but man i'm I'm psyched. I'm psyched for this one. I know we say this before. We say this before most series, but it's like this one, this one should be good.

Ranger fans are going to be thrilled. Once again, nobody believes in you. No respect for the president's trophy winners. I know. It's, it is, it is lame.

I'm, I'm chemically predisposed to, to, to, to, to, to, I don't know.

What are you, are you, are you, are you, are you, are you, are you, you know what uh i i'm going to have to think about it i'm going to have to look at it i

mean i pick the capitals to beat the rangers i was being a bit of a smart alick when i did that but i was taking a big swing buddy if the caps if the caps would have done it you'd look like a genius exactly in fact nobody's going to remember in the fact that they didn't like nobody remember in fact jeff added out that i even admitted to it but just let take what are you talking about I didn't pick the caps. I didn't pick the Calgary Flames to win the Stanley Cup last season. Come on. That's fine.

Yeah. What are any of us doing? We did the last game from last night. What's that? If we did the last game from last night, Vancouver. I guess we might as well. How much that do you watch? Be honest.

Oh, I watched very little of it because I was watching the obviously. I watched the last period. I was watching Colorado. What's the last period of that one? What did you think of the Roman Yosie goal, the goaltender interference bracket question mark, close brackets that was not challenged by Rick Tocket, ends up tying the game.

Nashville goes on and wins it too. I meant to say this to you as it related to, what the hell? What was the game where we saw two-way? gave off goals. The, the, before last.

The, Florida, Tampa. Tampa lost. I think, I think, working with you long enough, reading you,

reading you, like, before that, having a podcast with, you know, I think I finally understand goaltender interfere. Yes.

I think I got it. I think I got it. So when, when I, when I saw that happen live, I was like, keep it, Keep it in the pocket.

Here's, okay, so here's the thing. If people are wondering that Sean's referring to, I wrote a piece, years ago now, I don't remember what it was, but a couple years ago where I said, look. It was 2021 because I read it two days ago. There. I said, read this piece,

because I get tired of people doing this whole act every time there's a goalie interference going, nobody knows what it is. It's always a coin flip. Nobody understands it. Nonsense. I wrote a piece. and I said, look, you read this, I'll get you 80 to 90% of them, you'll understand what's going on.

And it's because it's in the crease, outside the crease, I walk through the rules and the exceptions and all of that. Now, I didn't say 100%. I said 80 to 90 because, first of all, some of the, all the rules around goaltender interference are subjective. This is an off side where it's, you know, skates here, skates there, in theory, black and white. There's judgment involved, so you're not always going to agree. but also there are some edge cases that get tougher and one of those is the plays where the puck is in the crease yep and guys pile in and goal tender get shoved uh and what have you so that was what we saw last night so i i've had people shoot me emails or text or whatever last night this

morning saying like all right what's what's the call you're mr goalie interference and my answer is this is one of those tough ones that it's maybe not as evident because it certainly looks like the goaltender kind of gets shoved, which leads to the puck to go in. And yet it's not, it was not that play that we see from time to time where the goalie's got the puck pin down and then they just, they pitchfork the goalie pad or, you know, whatever it is and shut. It's not quite what happened in this one. Those never get, those almost never count.

Can't, can't do that. But. As I think a lot of people understand, once the puck is in the crease, guys are allowed to go in and try to play the puck. It's not just the goalies puck when it's sitting there in the crease. And so it was a tough one. I don't know what the ruling would have been. I do find it interesting that Rick Tocke chose not to challenge, given the circumstances.

And he said after the game, he thought it was 50-50. It's risk-reward at that point. I just did, but if it's, if it's 50-50, and, you know, he could just be kind of speaking off the cuff. But if it's actually, if you actually think it's 50-50, then it's wrong not to challenge. Because the risk of reward, if you've got a 50% chance to take a goal off the board, then you've got to, you absolutely challenge that because the downside, of course, is if you're wrong, you get a delay game penalty. other team goes on the powerplay.

Were they just scored? Where they just scored but have also not been very good. They had also been pretty brutal up until the third period. I mean, this is just thinking, I'm not going to get up to Matthew here, but just thinking expected value-wise, I got a decision to make. If I challenge, I've got a 50-50 chance of that goal coming off the board. What does the other side of that scale have to look like for me to not want a challenge? I mean, what do I think their power, do I think their power play is going to hit at 50%, which would give them the half goal back and balance the scale?

No. So, you know, clearly whatever number, whatever I think the chances are that they're going to score on the power play, 10%, 20%, 25, whatever. To me, that balances out. And then, of course, you have to get into game situations and, you know, not all goals are created equal. But when it's, when you're talking about a tying goal, it's, it's not as, as, I mean, it's a pretty direct comparison.

So if Rick Tocket actually thought it was 50-50, then I think he made a mistake by not challenging. I think you take that swing. Now, if Rick Tocket is just saying 50-50 as a way of saying, who knows what it would have been and, you know, obviously there's all sorts of calculations here. But I do find a lot of time, I think coaches don't challenge enough on this stuff.

and and I'm not attributing this thinking to Rick Talk it necessarily, but I think what happens is they think, well, okay, if I challenge and I'm wrong and we get scored out on the power play, it's my fault. Mm-hmm. And if I don't challenge, still on the players. It's not, it's, that's not me, actually. So, yeah, and it kind of comes down to that.

And that was my, kind of my thought, but Rick Tock, it doesn't really seem like that sort of guy. I wonder if he actually thought it was 50-50 or if he was just if it was like whatever, just kind of could toss off a toss-off answer. But I mean, it is it is what he said. Drance has a piece on the site today where he says he thinks it was the right call not challenge. He thinks that basically that it wasn't going to get overturned.

And again, call on the ice was a goal. So if it really is a tough call that, you know, there's a, good chance. Like, like it's, it's weird to me. I find myself with some of these saying, I think it probably stands.

And yet I think you should challenge. Because just, again, that it's a one nothing player. There is that level. There's that level of like, who knows, who knows what's going to go on in the room.

It's so huge. Yeah. If you think that there's not any chance. And if you think there's a 5% chance, no, it's not worth. And that's, that's the great thing.

That's why it was the right thing for the league to make, it a penalty and not make it you lose your time out or whatever. Because obviously, if that's it, then you challenge it and you just challenge it every time. They put it to the coaches and sort of, you know, made them have some skin in the game on it. But I don't think you have to think it's even 50-50 to be worth a challenge, just given how hard it is to score goals.

If you have a chance to take one off the board, I think you do it. If you think there's a realistic chance. And again, when he says 50-50, that might be his way of saying we weren't going to win. Makes sense. See, this is like, I know it's got to suck to be like the goaltending interference whisper, right? Or people ask you this stuff all the time. But it's fine. Yeah.

That's why you got the job, Big boy. The guy in Tampa is probably not loving life right now. How stupid is it we have these guys at all, by the way? We have like people whose whole job. It's more on the offside that it drives me nuts. Some guy hunched over a computer in the dressing room, watching everything freeze frame and getting on the phone to the cold. Oh, no, no, no, that might have been offside.

That play 20 seconds before we scored a goal might have been a fraction of an inch offside. This is Andy Sosier from the Pittsburgh Penguin. He just felt a stir a stir in his stomach. I feel like I hate the offside stuff less than the average. person. I'm like, yeah, he was out. Bring it back. It was upside. I don't like, I, this is like

heresy for like, like for you. But it's like if we had a near you're gonna do it last night in the Boston, Toronto game. I don't think it's one of those things where people maybe don't realize how close we came to disaster. But there was a play in that one one playoff game.

I think it might even have been in third period where the Leafs got close to the red line, dumped it in. And the announcers went, oh, that's going to be icing. And then they went, oh, I guess it's not going to be icing. They gave them like the close enough on the red line and the Leafs went in and got possession and got like a great chance, almost scored what could have held up as a winning goal. Dude, eventually that's going to happen and someone's going to be like, you know, we should be

reviewing icing as well. Icing needs to be reviewed that you got to get to the red line because a rule is a rule. I wish I had my, I wish I had glasses on. I'd be like pushing them up my nose and you know, a rule is a rule. We got to just get it right, guys. It says it in the rule book. So let's all stand around. This is, that's the. That's the. That's the argument against all this stuff. It's against it's a replay. It's a replay creep. It's a very real thing and he's be guarded against.

Imagine explaining. Hit a timer or something. Give me 15 seconds so that I don't do another 20 minute rant on. Go. Imagine explaining to a new fan, offside review, and sitting there going, well, you know, your toes not allowed to be there. And that's the rule. And it's black and white.

And we, you know, we got to get it right. And we got to review it and all this stuff. And that's why we all got to stand around for eight minutes. And then they watch a face off. And they go, Why do you have that circle around the face off? It's like, well, guys aren't allowed to put their skates out. And they go, yeah, but they do.

Literally every faceoff has four guys all drifting, you know, where they're not allowed to be. And you just go, yeah, it's just hockey, whatever. And then you, what are we going to do? We're going to. Then you fake a phone call and run out of the room. Like, guys, this is work. I have predicted this for years. It's going to happen eventually.

There is going to be a goal right off of faceoff in the playoffs, probably in overtime, where somebody, the puck is going to go to someone who was like a foot over the line and that's when someone's going to be like, you know, why don't we just get it right? We have the technology. Why don't we review these offside? And then, boy, you're going to hate it. You think you hate offside review. Wait until every single face off.

We have the technology is. Got to get it right. Just got to get it right, he said about a thing that makes nobody ever think it's right even one single time. All right, we got a couple more things to hit. We got a couple more games to look at for tonight. I also got a little bit of breaking news and some other stuff we want to touch on. Sean Norris trophy finalists are in.

We got Quinn Hughes. We got Roman Yossi. We got Keel McCart. Do you have any problems with any of that? Nope, that sounds about right to me, I think. I feel like Yose is it really locked down at least a second place vote with the way he played down the last. month or six weeks there. I kind of have a policy of not getting mad about the finalists.

Correct. Unless somebody I think sure you win is not one of them. Like, you know, you saw it with the Vezina. People are mad that Sergey Bobrovsky is one of them. It's like, yeah, he's going to finish third, like a mile away from the winner. So not a big deal there. But yeah, no, this sounds like the right three guys. Did you have a vote this year?

I did not. Yeah. Neither of us did. No, it's weird how that. Interesting. Yeah. What game were you more excited about tonight? We got Dallas Vegas.

We got Kings Oilers. Which one is like, I mean, is the must watch. Dallas Vegas, obviously. And I, every year there's a series

that everyone kind of just gives up on too early. It turns into something. But boy, it doesn't feel like everyone's kind of given up on this king's team, specifically. Like, not giving up on the team, but given up on the matchup.

Like you're not beating the Oilers. So we've got. We have the Pierre piece dropping this this morning where it's like, how do you, the obligatory completely understandable, how do you defend the Oilers power play? Like, what do you do? And I haven't ready yet, but I'm sure he talked to a bunch of people who were more than qualified to offer their opinion on what the hell you're supposed

to do with this. But I feel like this is just rinse and repeat every year, at least in the first round or two. where it's like, hey, what the hell are we supposed to do about this? And today's the day of Ford, I suppose. And I got to say, I hate that this is right, but people right when they point out that the Oilers winning 1-0 in the playoffs is almost scarier than them winning 7 to 3 or whatever else.

It's true. It's like what we just spent all that time saying about the abs. Like when you see a team that has such an obvious flock coming into the playoffs or such an obvious potential Achilles heel. And then they do some stuff in round one to show, okay, maybe this isn't, this is, this looks, it's less clear that this is going to kill them. Like, we're going to react to it.

That's just, it's just the way it goes. So it's, it's tough for L.A. Again, I don't want to be talking about them in the past tense, because we saw it with Toronto. It takes one game five and then suddenly all the narratives change.

But again, like we talked about Winnipe. Like what's the pass out of that division? Boy, if you're L.A., you've lost to the Oilers three years. Like, this isn't theoretical. Like, oh, boy, the Oilers would be tough to be. This would be three years in a row. They've gone out the first round of the Oilers. You still got Vages.

Three years, two, where they've gotten, they've gotten better each year and just, in, just, and lost out on a team that gets, that has really gotten exponentially better each year, right? So you're, so you're improving. You're just not improving at a rate that's fast enough to. to get the job done here. You improved, but your big move last summer, so far, I paid off. Here, look, de Bois. Who, doesn't he feel like a guy that everybody is rooting against at this point?

Doesn't it feel like he's, he's, you know, I don't know. How many fan bases are rooting against him specifically? Five, six. That's it, right? But even like, you know, even outside of those, those few, it's like, it's just everyone's like, oh, good, you know, here's the guy. He didn't want to play in Columbus or win a thing. The only NFL player who wouldn't want to play in Columbus and Winnipeg

who would prefer Los Angeles to those destinations. What a weirdo. He had the courage to stand by his convictions and he's being punished for it. Justice for P.L. Dubois. Yeah. Buddy, we have a major, we also have a major feather in your cap professionally. We had the first team win the first overall pick with the gold with the gold plan. This is something that you've pushed for years and years and years.

PWHL New York has the first overall pick officially because they beat Ottawa on Tuesday nights. So they're going to have the chance to draft Sarah Filier, who's, you know, Canadian Olympian Princeton superstar. She's like the consensus first round pick in New York because of the way, because of A, how badly they stunk for the first 90% of the season. And B, because of how many points they've won since are going to have. have the chance to pick her. So congratulations to everybody in the McIndoo and the gold households today. I'm very excited. I'm very excited. And hey, it's, I, when I was thrilled when, when they announced

that they were doing it. I'm not convinced that doing it in a league where two teams missed the playoffs. It's unfortunate as well. It's okay. As it would in the NHL. God, I mean, remember, remember two weeks ago, I, forever ago when the regular season was still on and like, Chicago was playing San Jose a couple of times. Imagine if that was the Macklin Celebrini Cup. I don't know if I can handle. The excitement,

the fun? Do I need that in? Do I need that in? Yeah. You can be Gary and I can be Bill. And I'll shave my head. And I'll be the guy that emails, all the media people answers to

him. Not just questions. Yeah. This is going to happen here. one last thing i wanted i wanted to hit one reader question because i'm curious about this too we have not we have not discussed this ahead of time this comes from ariel who's asked it who's asked it asked it asked it asked it asked it to ask it two weeks in a row patiently waited here

a she asked me if i know about your bag of potato chips tradition which i do it's when you have a bag of chips right the good luck bag of chips your good luck bag of chips at the start of a series with the Leafs. And B, I actually check this. I haven't seen any updates for you on what the status is. What kind of chips do we have this year? Where are our thoughts on that overall? For those who somehow have missed this crucial information,

this dates back a long, long way. This dates back to the 1993. That is insane. I didn't know it went back. that far. Good God. When I am a young me, I am gifted a bag of potato chips before game one

between the Leafs and the Red Wings. By my sister, apparently. My mom remembers this and has filled in some of the details. I am too nervous to eat those chips. And so I then proceed to have them sit next to the TV and of course 93 Leafs

go on a long run they go three run. They go on the deepest run in the history of the franchise. By the way to game seven of the conference final. I love that your mom remembers that your sister gave it to you

and you don't, even though you were more than old enough to remember well where the chips came from. You just block that part out. I'll give you this. This actually gets a little bit controversial because, so that became a thing over the years.

Buy a bag of chips. They sit next to the TV or they sit somewhere in the room. They do not get opened until the Leafs are eliminated. And then you can open the bag and eat the chips. Over time, it became always the same bag. It was a bag of Lays, plain chips. That was a great, it's a great, it's a classic chip. Classic chip, right?

And year after year after year, as long as the Leafs were in the playoffs, that's what I've done. In recent years, been mixing it up a little bit, getting away. I mean, I don't know if you've heard, but the Leafs, have not won a ton of Stanley Cups during this era. So mixing it up a little bit, you know, a couple of different flavors,

couple of different brands. But anyways, where the controversy comes in is, you know, I've been doing years and years, you know, the lays, the plain lays were the default setting.

And a couple years ago, my mom was like, it wasn't lays that first year. It was ketchup chips. Oh, my God. It wasn't plain. I'm like, I can picture.

the little yellow bag sitting next to the TV. But I, you know, she, she probably knows better. And know what my sister, that's her favorite type of chip. So that's what she would have got. This is all checking out. Anyways, this year it ended up being, we went a bag of Miss Vickies. We took the kids. We walk over to the convenience store and we sort of sit down and we kind of,

we're hoping something would jump out at us. You know, when they sometimes have those like mystery flavors that come out, I was hoping it would be like, you know, the taste of glory or, I don't know, so sad. Or just like, yeah, we're just one of the, one of the gimmick lays where it's like they have like club sandwich flavor chips or exactly i thought maybe we could get get in and do something like that but was not to be so yeah mixed mixed it up a little bit this year trying something new um and the the sad thing is

like my my kids now they don't go like he did the least win how's the playoffs going they go like do we get to eat the chips tonight with the chips maybe yeah i'll swing by at 930 dad might have some chips. Will the Mac and Duke children crack into the bag of chips between now and our next people have pointed out that that typically when you have a superstition that has not worked in 31 years, then maybe you would not like, yeah, but I can't. Yeah, what if I ditch it and then they don't? And then one of the playoff runs goes badly.

I mean, I'd feel personally responsible. If you don't, if you don't buy the chips and then they lose in the, first round or whatever. It's going to be on me. It's going to be your fault. What if this is the year that it's supposed to work and then I go and anger the hockey gods by not doing it? Seven days from now, Frankie will be back and we will get our bag of chip update. Will Sean McIndoo sadly eat a bag of Miss Vickies somewhere in Ontario over the next seven days? Maybe I'll save it for the podcast and you can just listen to me, munch in the background. It's great. People love that too. They love it when eat on Mike. Oh, it's really popular.

All right. That's it. We're done. Sean, thank you. Listeners, thank you for listening to our show. Leave a five-star rating and review it if you can. Tomorrow is Haley and Max and me. And we're back next Wednesday with Francesco. Have a good week.