The Athletic Hockey Show - Ian Cole suspended by Tampa Bay Lighting surrounding sexual assault allegations and the NHL top 99 players since 1967

Episode Date: October 10, 2022

The Tuesday boyzzz, Craig Custance and Sean Gentille, offer an olive branch to Canadians Julian McKenzie and Ian Mendes to host the Monday show in celebration of Canadian Thanksgiving.Craig and Sean discuss the disturbing news out of Tampa Bay involving Ian Cole, who has been suspended by the team after allegations of sexual assault surfaced involving a women when she was a minor.Dominick Luszczyszyn from the Athletic joins the show on the eve of the Athletic's NHL 99 project, discussing the top 99 players of all time since 1967, and the boyzzz take your correspondence in our weekly comments section segment which really should never be skipped over. After all, it's the best segment of the week.Get a 6 month subscription to The Athletic for just $1 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshowSubscribe to The Athletic Hockey Show on YouTube: https://bit.ly/3BKz27u Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. Hey everybody, this is Craig Custins, your friendly host of the athletic, co-host of the athletic hockey show on Tuesdays, coming to you on a Monday because Sean Gentilly, happy Canadian Thanksgiving, my friend. We are subbing for the Canadians because that's the kind of teammates we are.

You know what the best solution for a case of Mondays is? Yeah. Make it a Tuesday. bro, make it a Tuesday. Oh, we are loaded up today on the show. We are, second segment is, oh man, Dom, Lus Chishin. I didn't, Dom Lus Chishin, say it with me, Sean. Oh, my God, dude.

Lus Chishin. Lus Chishin. His name is Dom, Lus Chishin. Here's how I feel, though. I feel like I'm saying it right, and you and Dom. And Dom is saying it correctly. Like, when Vanilla Ice was like, I went dunna, da, da, da, da, da. that and it was really done done and done it.

He was right. That's how I feel about. Dom was tishin is a statistician. Yes. And he's also our second guest. We are going to go over a project that's coming out this week at the athletic that Dom and Sean played major parts in putting together. Another, it's going to be almost a season long unveiling.

Really good stuff. That's segment two. we're going to also get in today the staff predictions for kind of the culmination of our season preview, even though the season has already started, where we have Stanley Cup picks. Sean and I are going to get into that a little bit and make our predictions. But we do want to acknowledge the news that surfaced over the weekend. Tempe-May Lightning has suspended defenseman Ian Cole after allegations surfaced of sexual grooming and sexual assault involving a minor in high school.

Just, I mean, Sean, obviously I think Tampa Bay doing the right thing while this is being investigated, while these allegations are being investigated. I mean, just another of the heaping pile of culture issues, terrible news to emerge with the NHL. I mean, I'm not trying to bring people down on a Monday, but this is a reality. We have to deal with it. We have to cover it. Like when you, and really there's not much we can say about it because it's under investigation and it's, you know, there's a lot there.

But what jumped out to you when this emerged? Well, I think you kind of hit on something like, we're at the point now. Are these, where this stuff is happening with such frequency that you try to learn something from it. Like you try to pull out a lesson. You try to have a point where you can say something other than just like, this is horrible. you know, disturbing stuff,

like major issues with hockey culture and whatever. All these like things that we hear constantly after years and years of not talking about them. I'm not saying they shouldn't be talked about. But like with each kind of new one, you're like, okay, what can we, is there something to learn here?

And for me, the Ian Cole thing, and I guess credit to the lightning in some respect, at least publicly for, you know, making a decision and, and kind of sticking with it yesterday to suspend him indefinitely. The thing that's stuck with me, and this is bubbled up periodically,

it bubbled up with Semyon-Varlamov, it bubbled up with Slava Voinov in past years. The fact that the NHL does not have a domestic violence policy is still just something. It's always been tough to get over. It's always been tough to parse. And I think that specifically is the thing that's kind of on my mind. today for this one right because again it's just like what what what can you say about this beyond that other than other than this is horrible yeah I mean you start you immediately your your mind goes to the you know victims in these cases as always like right like that's you know that's where it

starts and you're like you know it's just it's brutal and you're right now then it then it's like okay what's how what's the process here and it's always this kind of like it's going to be investigated and then Gary Betman decides. And, yeah, like, great, okay. There's got to be a better, more systematic. Him. He's the guy that's going to make the decision here. Great. And maybe if things happened in the past where we're like, oh, it seems like the

league always does the right thing on this front or the, you know what I mean, but the track record isn't great. Like I would, I honestly wish I would a phrase that differently when I was talking about the lightning, honestly. Like, like, whatever, good for the lightning for not letting him play, I guess, or or showing some kind of, you know, being judicial with it in one way and another, like, okay, that's the bare minimum we can expect out of anybody. So whatever, no, no credit there, no extra points. But we're still having the same conversation that we had about Slava Voinov. Five years ago, he's accused of heinous acts by his partner at the time. I can't remember whether she was his fiance or his wife. Horrible, horrible accusations. And he shouldn't have a policy.

back then. And we saw what happened in the wake of that because when you leave these teams to their own devices, they're going to do something horrible, more often than not. That's certainly is true in the past. And maybe that's the hope. Like maybe that's where things are going to get better moving forward. That's what really has got to cross our fingers and pray happens, is the teams at least do the right things now. Because you look at past instances of intimate partner violence it was botched by his teams like consistently.

Yeah. And there was no NHL guardrail. There was no league oversight. There was no mandated process or anything. They've doubled down in the past on, I believe, like, awareness,

like education for players like in the league, when they entered the league and all that stuff. Like that's been there. That's been their, you know, catch-all. sort of, here's what we're doing to fix it. But there's no league policy,

and we have seen, again, time and time again, where left to their devices, more often than not, these teams do the wrong thing. And that's what I had, like, look at what the Kings did with Slava Voina. Look at what Dean Lombardi did back then. He tried to let him practice. Yeah. And that's what happens when you don't have a league,

a capital L league, like a league office, that doesn't seem to give that much of a shit about anything. As you leave teams to their own devices, and it's a cutthroat sport, and it's run by freaks, and all they're trying to do is win as many hockey games as possible. That's it. That's pro sports.

That's the way it goes. So when you leave these teams to their own devices, like, of course they're going to make bad decisions. They can't be trusted. So you need to have something at the top level in place to at least make sure that, you know, again, the lightning seems based on the little bits of public information we have, it seems like they're handling it right.

We'll see if that, we'll see if they, you know, carry that out. But, man, it's just, it's unbelievable to me that we're having the same discussion here that we had about Slava Voynob in 2017 or 2018 or whatever it was. It's psychotic. And that is the first thing that I thought of this morning with the uncle. Yeah. Yeah. No, you're spot on.

And the only thing I would add is, you know, it starts with the NHL, but I think the PA, we should probably hold them to the fire too because I don't know what they're like this should be a joint effort between the Players Association and the league and everybody should like this should be something where it's like hey we're all working together to make this better and

well because it's every every entity whether it's the league whether it's the teams whether it's the PA they're all solely focused on their constituents and the people they serve the league is focused on owners teams are focused on the roster

and the players are focused on the PAs focus on the player. Right. And that's the frustrating thing. Is it like you can consistently see, and I'm not even talking about Ian Cole specifically. Yeah. This is just a blanket vibe

with the way this thing is treated. You never get the idea that anybody involved when you go, as you go up the food chain, gives any sort of shit about any of this. It doesn't seem like anybody cares. Right. and this is the same discussion we've been having for, again,

for God knows how long. As long as I've been in this business, this has been a thing for, like, for the NHL. And we're way down the pike now with all this other shit that's gone on, all these other like, like people figuring out whether it's a come to Jesus, like reckoning moment for the sport or the league or whatever. All these like high-minded, like maybe this is it kind of discussions that happens.

But then something happens like yesterday with coal, and you can tell that nothing's changed. because we had to sit there and wait for the team to suspend it. And that's it. Yep. And it's like somebody with the Hockey Canada stuff shared some like stories that went back decades where it was like this is the moment hockey. You know, you talk about like the hockey's reckoning.

It was like that's this is going to be the moment that changes. And then it's like, oh yeah, since that story published in the, you know, Globe and Mail in 1994, a million terrible things have happened until there's some systemic guardrails put in place. that don't seem to exist right now. They don't. And this is happening in concert with what we saw in the Hockey Canada hearings last week, which, you know, they went up and made a mess of it again and said all sorts of heinous shit in front of parliament.

Right. I mean, right? Yeah, no. Just reading this going, what is happening? Like, what, like, the lightball? Who's going to turn the lights on? Where this is these people's reaction to stop? Right.

And the only reason any of it changed, I know I talked about this on the Friday show because it was even fresher at that point. The only reason any of this shit changed is because the plug got pulled on the money. And there's like plenty of problems with that because you have corporate sponsors, big time corporate sponsors,

Canadian tire Tim Horton's like all these like pillars of the youth hockey community are pulling funding from hockey Canada, which is like a total catch-22 because that was the only way this shit was ever going to change. But there's also so much collateral damage by these companies doing that, whether it's like, whether it's like youth programs or whatever.

Like there's like, there's an element where the baby is getting thrown out with the bathwater, but also like, I don't know how else you would have forced these shameless freaks out of their jobs. So, and all that's being been treated last week, like it was a come to Jesus, like watershed moment. Like, this is it. This is the pivot point. And it's like, what, like, what has ever happened in the, in the recent history of this sport to make you believe that that might be the case. It's crazy. We're doing that we're having the same conversation

every couple years where it's like, yeah, yeah, maybe maybe this will change. In fairness, like, this is so big and at a governmental level and it's like, this is, this is, this is the scope and scale of it is larger than anything we've dealt with before. But at the same time, like, it's demoralizing. And it's, it's disheartening to see like this discussion kind of take a different form like every two years it seems like. Nothing ever gets done and nothing ever changes. Maybe you can, if you don't want to appeal to doing the right thing, maybe it is money. Maybe it's just, you know, it's sponsors pulling out.

It's saying, hey, you know, it actually makes good business sense to have a policy in place because fans want that. Like the fans are sick of this. They don't want to support a sport or like go cheer on a team or a league that continually steps in it or whatever. It doesn't do the right thing. That is the only reason to think that this might, there might be some real actual long-term change being enacted here because companies are realizing that it doesn't make financial sense for them to carry on business with people who behave in this way at like a organizational, you know, systemic, systemic kind of level. So maybe that's the change.

But it's like we're talking about the same shit now that we were five years ago, basically. I'm glad that like people are being held accountable for it. I'm glad, like, there's a light being shine on it. I'm glad that at least publicly, there seems to be more people who give a shit about the victims in this sort of situation. Like, that's the bright side. Is that hopefully these people now realize that they have some level of support that they wouldn't have had five years ago. Because God knows that it is not coming from the league and it's not coming from the powers that be. Just this.

Sean, there's really no good way to transition from that conversation to talking about. When is that, when is regular? I guess it already started. Here's what I'm going to do. If we want to get into predictions, which we, you know, we launch that today. We'll do that in segment three. Let's take a break here. And let's let's listen to them.

You do Santa Claus on an ad read or something for a second. And we'll be right back with Dom because Dom's really good. And it was a really fun discussion in segment two. Use fun. Do it. Welcome back to this is the segment we've all been waiting for for years, you could even say. Yeah, some of us. Months.

We at the Athletic are about to drop a project that we basically stole from Joe Posnansky, who did the top 100 baseball players of all time. He wrote it beautifully, turned it into a book. It was just a work of art. It was done by somebody who knows and loves the sport and cares about it. you know, like all good Americans. And it was great. And so it created debate and it was fun. And we're like, oh, we should just do this in every sport at the athletic.

And it's now the NHL's turn. We are going to be unveiling starting what. Sean, do you know any of the details? Because I don't know. I actually do. Starting tomorrow because today's holiday. You know why? You know why?

I know. Yeah. You know I know. Because some of us actually had to deal with this shit. That's right. I'm like you. I volunteered to write one to get denied. Ian's like, we're all set.

Uh, buddy, now you don't get to do Lydstrom. Sorry. Sorry. So we are, so we are launching our NHL 99 project where we count down the top 100 players of all time in the NHL. Uh, and what made this great was we, our staff voted on it. And we have, you know, people with an analytics background, which we'll get to. I'm making down wait really long before saying anything here.

Oh, that's fine. Um, we have people that are in a whole, like, Hall of Fame like Eric Duhatchik who is seen every single player on the list, maybe? I don't know. It's hard to say. I can vouch for this. Absolutely. It's post, it's post Gordy Howe.

It's post Gordy Howe, right. We put in some rules in place. And everybody voted and it made, it's, it made for a list that's unlike, really, like I've any I've ever seen because of these results and because of like people like Sean Gentilly who tipped the skills for the way he voted like. Oh, wait don't we get to that one, my friend. you like leaves a team out of his top 25. So we're now joined by Dom Luce Chishin.

Did I, I tried. No, no, no, come on, Craig. Lus Chishin. That's a seasoned event right there. Oh my gosh, guys, guys, I was acting like I was way off. You were way off. It wasn't correct. For someone who's known me for, uh, almost a decade here.

I've known you longer than anybody on this call. And, uh, Sean. And you got it wrong. I tried, though. Brother, if you're not, if you're not first, you're last. So Dom is, did you, you wrote the first one. So just to give you some even more how the sausage was made, a long debate, a lot of voting, a lot of revoting, numbers being calculated. And then we divvied up the work.

Like who, instead of one person writing every single story, the staff divvied up, got to pick who they wanted. And Dom is going, he wrote one of the first ones that's going to come out. I don't want to give anything away, but I guess we're going to have to for the. Okay, yeah, we need to figure out. We won't say what number this guy is, just for the... Do we need to say what guy is? We won't even say what player it is. We'll talk about him in generalities.

You're going to have to guess who it is. Really? And what number he comes to? No, this, okay, so there were probably like a, I don't know, dozen people maybe who voted on this thing. We had different... Thanks for the invite to the panel, by the way, guys. Are you doing other things right now?

want to if you just want to be on this shit you know you know you can't you know like because you don't actually want to do it right that's right shovel your shit and try to figure out where Serge Sivard belongs on the list of the top 100 no no

um but so 100 drops and it is called it's called the NHL 99 because number one is obviously so far and away above everybody else that he gets his own category Lidstrom right speaking of exactly uh you you guessed it frank solone that was a weekend update reference from 30 years ago

before i was born anybody who anybody who uh who was who was born after the first clinton administration um so yeah it was i don't know don like what did you did you think about the process all that much like seriously when we're like glad to think you believe you uh took this as seriously as the rest of us here. I did. I mean, like, because there was no other way to do it, right?

Because it's something that I think, lists like this can be a joke. Like, like they, like they, that's what we were trying to avoid though, throw away bullshit. Yeah.

Throw away bullshit that nobody takes seriously, let alone the people who are involved with voting on them or writing them, right? And I think that bleeds through to the quality of work and the way they received by by readers. And that was clearly like, the last thing that was the single thing to avoid. So anybody who is maybe in that mindset when it's like, oh God, this is another another Zoom call where I got to move stuff around a spreadsheet and get in votes and

whatever. Like we were disabused that notion like very quickly. I think everybody was like we got to, we owe it to the project and I think to the people who were involved with it honestly to take it seriously, even though it seemed like a pain in the ass at points. Yeah. It was a bit, especially like debating. certain players where it's like, well, they're both amazing and I don't want to snub anyone.

It's tough when you only have 100 spots and you're leaving some really good players out. But I thought it was fun. It was a good challenge, especially for me when a lot of the players were playing before it was born. I can't fall into the watch the game argument because I didn't watch their games. I was minus 17 years old for some of them. And it was a bit tough in that way, but it's helpful that we had people on the panel who did watch and who could lend their expertise to that while I sort of looked back on their numbers and try to put it into context within the eras. Right. So you had an interest.

You had Crystal Tang. Like, we can just come on and say it. We won't say what, that was one of the ones you had to write. Well, we're going from like 100 to 1, and we're starting this week. So that gives you some context where Chris LaTang landed. And Chris Latang is number 12. We have him as the 12th greatest NHL player. A lot of tomorrow.

Sean had him second. I had him fourth. But I thought the process for LaTang was kind of instructive. Honestly, it's an interesting little, it's like a bellwether, I think, of the way a lot of the way a lot of the voting went because he's on there because you and Shane. Yeah. We can just come out. We can just come out and say that. Like, like, and

we are not coincidentally, I believe the three youngest people on this, on this project. We run on and I look for that. Yeah. And certainly you guys are the two most analytically savvy people and I'm probably some in the middle. But like, I think that was, that was part. We had

all these discussions and it started out with like, and we could see like where people slotted player X and whatever. And it was so, funny to see like, because the three of us had him high. We had Latang, certainly not where he, not where he hit it up running, but it was enough to carry it. Yeah. Because of guys like McIndoo or Ian Mendez or whatever, he wasn't, he didn't make, he didn't make the cut for them. Yeah. Can I just, before we get into the Latang debate really quick, the parameters of the project, you mentioned there was a cutoff, Sean. And I just want to like, how, like, even with that, how did you all,

like, I get why you want to like, you want to like remove all the people from the 1800s and be like no Corbett Dennyhee or whoever. But like, all the, all the, all the, all the, all the, all the, all the, all the, all the, all the, all the, all the, the, Jeff Merrick players will call it. So, but like, how, how did you avoid when you're talking about Chris LaTang who we saw like, even then you're still going, okay, I got to do Chris LaTang versus even like Larry Robinson or whatever. What was as a voter before we get to guy like Chris Lattang, how. How. How did you factor that in? I mean, we had guys who we, it was a long process. There were multiple, multiple sets of meetings where, you know, we had like preliminary lists and then we had another one. And then we did another like set of revisions that came after we had, I mean, not even debate, but just listened to guys like Eric Dehach or, you know, or, or, or these guys who maybe had their own.

personal preferences or hobby horses or whatever. And I changed, I changed my vote on because I, did you, that's what I was wondering. Was you, were you ever able to go, okay.

I moved, I moved stuff around because that's the only way you can approach this with any kind of rigor or honesty, right, is you need to be realistic about your own biases and, and whether that's from, whether that's from a timeline standpoint or whatever. Like,

of course I think that, you know, Chris LaTang is the 72nd best NFL player of all time. Since 1967. We're the same, we're, since 1967. Like, we're the same age. I grew up in, like, I live in Pittsburgh. I watched his entire career.

Like, I, and I have defensible points to make as to why I think he's, you know, as high as he is on that list. But I'm also aware that, you know. Other people don't feel that way. That other people, that other people don't feel that way, right? I mean, there's names on this list. And Don, like, you kind of alluded to this. Like, there's guys that I just couldn't even. Yeah.

I couldn't even. It would be dishonest for me to pretend that I have any true feeling about the placement of Jean Rattel or whatever. Like, I just can't, I'm just not there. So for guys like that, that's where I relied, you know, heavily on research and heavily on the word of guys like Eric, who was like the older, you know, the kind of guardrail for us, for lack of a better term, from making this like a bunch of players. Yeah, there's like, we're in, like, the oldest guy in there would have been. You know, yeah, 100, right, exactly. Yeah, it was, it was challenging because a lot of the players are still playing, and we didn't want to have specific reverence to the old guys,

the ones who had done their careers, like nostalgia. And a lot of us put a bit more weight on a player's peak years. So how good they've already been. So someone like McDavid, his five-year peak is already up there with the greats. how do you balance that with the longevity that they had? And I think some of us lean towards peak years, some of us lean towards longevity. And for a guy like Letang,

one of the interesting things was he obviously never won a Norris trophy, but there were probably a few years where he should have or could have, but injury has gone the way, I think, about the 2013 season, where he missed 13 games in a 48 game season, that's enough for him to lose the Norris. and the 2016 Stanley Cup playoffs. Me and Sean were talking about this a lot. Like he might have been the best play on the ice a lot of nights.

And I think Crosby was amazing, but I think Letang was the guy that year that really brought it home. And he was as good as Duncan Keith was when he won the Consmite, as good as Victor Hedman won when he won the cons smite. And he just, he doesn't have, though, that trophy cabinet, that other defensemen have in his era. But he, like we thought was, as good as those guys.

That was basically the main argument. That was what the discussion came down to when it came time for me to, for me to, you know, on this call to basically explain why I had Latang in the 70s or whatever. My stance on it was like, is he Duncan Keith? Like, maybe he's a hair off. Is he Drew Dowdy? He's a hair off. But like, it's not that far.

So if you have, if you, if you put a ton of stock in those. guys production in the way they did it in the time that they did it in the fact that their careers are in in least outy at latang's cases are still ongoing i don't know how like to me i was like i can't put those guys in the 60s or whatever and then have latang at 98 or or off the list that just didn't jive you know from a rhetorical standpoint with me and it was literally this is this was this was this was days and days and weeks and weeks of going of the going back and forth over the stuff. Like you just cut you have,

you have a framework that we're working in with the voting overall. But then within that, I think each person has to have like an individual framework that you set up for yourself to make sure that you're coming at it from. Consistent way. You know,

from a defensible, yeah, exactly, from a consistent kind of defensible point. And that doesn't mean that not everybody's, not everybody's going to agree. Not everybody's going to agree there clearly. Like,

because Latang's on there because three of us had them. We had them all pretty tight too. We all had him like, around like 70, 73, 75. It wasn't like one of us had him in like 60, one of us had an 80. Like we were all like around 70. I thought that was really interesting too. It was like he kind of fell on the same spot for all of us. This was not, this wasn't me having on it. I know, I jumped on putting him a 10, but that's not what it was. He was just, he was in the 70s. And it just so happened that

yeah, you know, I, the three of us all had him in the same, in the same, you know. Yeah. And I, I did lean a lot towards players of this era. I think it is very impressive for a player to be good in this era with such a... The players are as good as they've probably ever been. I think athletes are just in general better than they've ever been. And I did lean a lot on peak years. And someone I had on my list was Leon Drysidal. He won a heart.

He has an art Ross. His trophy cabinet is pretty good. His peak years are great. and he, I'm not going to spoil. I guess I'm spoiling it now, but he didn't make the list where someone young, like I think Shana might have had him as well, like someone from the younger side

who tried to shuffle in some players in this current era, they would have had on the list, and he maybe he just doesn't make it because there is a bit of reverence to longevity of career. And that's where having all these different people voting is, I think, important because it does show that even with people like, me and Shane up putting in some of the younger players.

It's still a high bar to clear for someone as already accomplished as dry-sidal is to not make it. But don't you run the risk? Like, I remember the NHL did their version around whatever anniversary that was. We had that All-Star game in L.A. And you run the risk of like, even though you could argue every player right now is better than anybody who played in the 60s or whatever, which is probably, you could do that all day, I guess. You still run the risk of saying, you know, Mike Richards is in the top.

top 100, whatever weird things happened because in that moment and time, this player you see every day, you just love and really, but they're really at the end of the date, not a top 100 player. Yeah, I honestly don't think we have any of those. Yeah, really? Like, you think this list is going to stay on the test of, like, I'm going to go back and look at theirs because I think there was. I don't think there's anybody like, the bottom 10 is, of course, going to be arguable. Like, there's going to be people out there that laugh whenever they see that we have Chris Letang in 99.

Like, it's fine. Yeah. But, like, at a certain point, it's pretty, there's no extremely, extremely bias here. But I don't, I don't think there's any agree. Just miss out. And the other thing is that, that you need to account for. And this is something where the NHL got burned because the whole process, including hours, is taking these, this stuff doesn't just happen overnight. Right.

It takes a while to get the panel together. And it takes a while to have the discussions. And it takes a while to get, like, really boring. under the hood stuff like marketing and like in figuring out the right date to deploy this and all this stuff like that's been going on with this project for the last six months or however long it is we are now vote like this list was voted on and finalized in the spring right right so we needed to that was what I think the flip side of the coin of being like oh god we can't be prisoners the moment but Mike Richards is the I don't think he was out of that I was just

I felt like there was a couple where you were like, oh, they had a great postseason this year. Yeah, right. Totally. But the flip side is like you got to make sure that you don't, that you keep a long view on the arc of these players' career. And you got to account for if you believe that Kail McCar is going to be, because again, this was like, this was around the, I was honestly, I think it was around the All-Star break. Like, McCar hadn't completely ran and hid with Norris. And he certainly hadn't done what he did. did in the in the in the in the postseason right like there was stuff that was happening where like what

if player x gets another cup if player x ends up winning an award like what happens if over this in these next 60 games we're going to watch from these guys like something significant happens and i know don like it was you and i talked about this there was legitimate like angst over potentially looking stupid because we have kill macar ranked too low or whatever i might be a great example but But a player like that ranked you low after having like some insane crazy, like Matthews. Also Matthews is probably the best. Yeah. I'm not going to say it where he even allude to where he ended up because like that's going to be one of the fun.

Yeah, he's won. Actually. But like that was part of it. Like we're like, do we just account for the fact that this guy's going to fucking score, you know, 60? At that point, we're like, is he going to score 70 goals? Like, like, what's like, what's going to go on here that we need to do that we need to deal with? I know for me and you particularly, like we were just agonizing over that, honestly. Yeah, yeah.

I remember around that the time we voted like he was in the thick of the Hart Trophy race and we're like, what happens if he wins a Hart Trophy? Because one of the things we did before the voting process was just to get everyone to have a collection of names was me and Shana put together a spreadsheet where we sort of, we used GSVA up until we have it. the analytics era and then we used a estimate for it using hockey references point shares and those are a way of I guess comparing eras and the other thing we did was we had a point system for trophies so if a player's a lot of art Ross's uh heart trophies whatever they get a certain amount of points

for that compared to if they had a second team all-star which might be lower in priority or whatever and which is similar to what John Hollinger did who ran up, who did a bunch of stuff with the NBA project, which ran last, it started last fall, I believe.

Yeah. He had goat points, and that was, which is some, you know, Solander, he's a genius. But this was sort of

the analog that you guys. Yeah, similar, yeah. And for like the current players, like I remember we had a debate about how high to rank McDavid even, and we're like, look at his trophy case.

He's already got, as many accolades as some like Gila Fleur and he's nowhere close to being finished his career like how high do you put a guy like that? Matthews doesn't have that many trophies but what if he gets another Richard this year? What if he wins the heart? What if he has this big season

where he's a first team all-star and all of that? And he did and his trophy case looks a lot fuller now because of this big season and maybe if we did the voting in July, instead of February, the list looks a little different, but that's not something that we can really do, right? Well, it wouldn't look that much different because you can't get any higher the number one. And that is where Austin Matthews is the greatest.

Of all time. All right. So it rolls out. The last thing on the Tang, though, it's funny, as you guys were talking about, I was trying to see his highest Norris total. I think he finished third in that short and season behind Souter and Suban. But the thing I noticed about him is, he was never even a first team all-star.

So, not only did not want to... Was he not a first team all-star that year? Oh, I guess he was third, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, not, again, not that that matters, but, you know,

but the, so that was interesting to me. So there was never a point where he was considered one of the, you know, a couple best defensemen in the league that year, which is not, you know, this is an observation. But the other thing is he has a decade of getting top five or six

Norris trophy votes. That's pretty, like, Yeah. That's the flip side of it, right? Like, this guy has been one of the best defensemen in the league since he was 23 or whatever. Well, I'm going to gas up Dom, too, because the story that you ended up writing about LaTang is, is, uh. You've seen it? Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. He helped with it. I've seen it. Oh, I've seen it. Yeah, Dom got a, dumb got some input from a, from an unimpeachable source on the greatness of Krista Tang. I'll say that. I kind of look like Krista Tangs.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I used to get it all the time. In bars in Pittsburgh, people, people always watching a lot of here. They go, is that, is that Chris a dang? But he sounds like Phil. But Phil, it's the great combination. Is that Chris Connor? Sorry, if you did it.

Go ahead. Did I ever tell you that? Whenever, whenever the penguins had a bunch of even more short, dark-haired dudes with beards than they normally had, which was like probably five years ago, I walked, I walked in the, I was walking through the tunnels before a game in some, in some, and some kid turned to his dad and he said, is that Chris Connor? And Chris Connor is like famous,

like famous five foot six scrub, you know, 13th forward for the penguin. So that's, that's who I, that's who I got mistaken. Mark donk energy. Mark dog.

Is that, is that, Daddy, is that buzz flip it? Um, sorry, you were gonna get, you were gonna,

you were gonna, you were gonna gas up Dom's the, the, the, the piece. Yeah, he did great. Beke,

it was, it was a good argument made that hit on the points that need to be defended regarding Chris LaTang if you think that he's, you know, one of the 100 best NHL players of all time, which is like, did Nevin Norris was, you know, was always sort of third or fourth or fifth, like in a discussion in a given year. But Dom, Dom hit all the points. Yeah, I think his injuries played a role with the Norris discussions because he missed at least like 10, 15 games a year during his peak. And when we vote, we do think about total value rather than value per game. And Let's Hang was always up there. And if he played a full 82, he might get a few more nominations, but he obviously didn't.

And that plays a role in his reputation. But if you look over like the, like his entire career of what he was able to do, I think, it stands up to the greats of this generation among defensemen. And this was a great generation for defensemen. Yeah, it was. That's kind of a fun thing to talk about. All right, we've already gone too long in this segment without even anything really to debate about yet. But we'll have, Dom, we'll have me back on when we can really argue when it gets, because I am just fascinated about the fact that there's going to be players,

especially in this top, or the first 10 or 15, where they weren't even on people's list, like, you know, I'm sure, which I love, like, and maybe we can, we can really get into that when we get down the list. But Dom, thanks for doing this. I know it's a holiday. I know you're a huge baseball fan. Blue Jays.

I'm sure there's a lot of reasons for it's not one of work today. I mean, the big thing is that he allowed himself to be manipulated by the puppet master of the Chris LaTang defense squad. Big win.

Big win for the team. I don't know why you think I'm not part of the puppet master team. That's what they all say. Any time with you guys, especially Sean, my best friend. You guys, I love this. romance.

Worms my heart. Don't you guys have power rankings to write today? Oh man. We're kicking that can down the road for as long as we can, brother. See you guys. See you,

Dom. See you guys. I guess I shouldn't say see you guys. I'm not going anywhere. See you guys? I still have another segment to record. Coming up next, what some are calling

the only good segment. First time you've ever gotten her right. We'll be right back. This is the only good segment on the show. Calling a little bit of an audible based on our setup, I guess, in the first segment. We're not talking about predictions here. You don't have that kind of power to just decide that shot? You know what?

Guess what? You're fired too. How about that? It hurts. It's hurtful. Yeah, we're going to do that in the Apple podcast plus. That's us this week, folks. Yeah, because we got.

too, we got too mad talking about Nicole and talk for 25 minutes about that or whatever. So sorry, sorry, sorry. If you want to read, if you want to read this, if you want to read the prediction post, it's on, it's on the site. There's two of them. Uh, Patrick D. Fun fact. Of course, right. You know what?

Keep forgetting to say this. Yeah. This is from the comment section on the app. This is where you folks go. You ride a gondola over, over a river. drop down into a little wooded glen pick there's a rock there's a big rock you pick up the rock and there's a hole under the rock where you go down into the end of the tunnels for the comment section and then you leave us stuff and we talk about it and that's what we do for 15 minutes at the end

the show how many people do you think actually do like do you think it's the same eight people leaving multiple comments or do you think i think we know i think we know who the usual suspects are here, but I don't know. You get 20 to 30. I can't believe it. It's not easy to do every week. It's not easy. I still don't know how.

No, I can't even read. Patrick D. says, fun fact, I was the person that came up to Sean on the street in Pittsburgh. And so it was a big, big strong guy, big large guy saying it saying it more. It was Patrick D. It was a couple weeks before that piece dropped. Wow. Wow. Very big, very strong.

Nick Kay. A. Sean sounds shorter than 5'10. I agree with that. I agree with that. He is short than 5'10. I sound like a little kid. I sound like a little kid. I sound shorter than 510, but you know what?

Not shorter than 510. Okay. People at this company have measured me back to the wall. Really? I've seen that multiple. Well, at our house we have... How about this? Tyler Battiste, NBA managing editor, measured me in a bar.

a couple years ago. Did not believe I was 5'10. Guess what? I'll have to... I'm going to have Tyler on to discuss this. I wouldn't. I wouldn't. He's busy.

Leave him alone. A lot of people don't know this. At my house, we have, you know, a door jam where we put everyone's heights in pen, like, around the house. We have one of Sean in 2000s when he swung by. Shorter than Calvin now. Yeah, it's like Calvin and Sean. And it's adorable.

He was five foot three at the time. Keep reading Nick Kay's comment because I like where I like where eco- Oh yeah the only people who reference the national average height for men is not 5.95 or people below 5-10. I agree that's typically typically those are the people who mention that but not me because I'm 5-10. Also says that Craig sounds nice, which, yeah. Thanks, Nick. That's how he gets you. We got Morgan.

Coming, talking about your buddy John Ham. Oh, yeah, John. We just care about him. That's all. We spent six, six weeks wishing the best, or six minutes wishing the best for John Ham last week. And I do love, I do love John Ham. I am going to see the Fletch movie. I've enjoyed plenty of his work over the years.

Great comedy, bang, bang guests, et cetera. But I forgot this, Craig. I forgot a blotch. Blotch? Blot? Not a word. Splotch. Not a word.

black mark on his resume John Ham should get all the This is Morgan John Ham should get all the professional failures he can after jobbing Jack Hughes out of the shootout contest in Vegas which is true at the Allsar game

whenever that happened because he gooseed it up for whichever blue is involved I believe Well if you invite John Ham That kind of adds the bona fides honestly I actually say I like him more because of that Because he says I am such a diehard blue If you're going to ask me to be a judge

I am not going to stop being a blues fan. He's going to stack the cards for Robert Thomas or whoever, O'Reilly, whatever it was at that point. Very funny line for Morganty. Some things are just sacred, such as prop-related fake penalty shift contests. Very true. Very true.

If not that, if we don't have that, what do we have? He did rob Trevor Zegris, according to Richard does. So it wasn't true. American Trevor Zegers. It doesn't matter. Those guys are the same.

Emily L says, can we get Keith on every week? And this is in reference to Keith Kachuk. Who called himself. We were talking about how he's a blue collar yacht trip taker. Just a great interview. It's just everything about it. From him saying, you know, not like my favorite part, like after thinking about it

was talking about like the huge favorite they did the flames. And he's basically said, boy, could we have. Oh, boy, did we do them well. And he's right. That was a 10 out of 10. Spoiler alert from my NHL season, season projections there, season production. Oh, really? Keith Kachuk.

I love me some flame this year, brother. But yeah, of course we can get him on every week. Of course he's going to sub for, he's going to sub for one of us every week. It's going to be Craig and Keith and then me and Keith and then Craig and Keith. And we're not going to pay him either. No. You know why? Because he's rich.

It's 78 mil. Would he decide he made in the course of his career? Millions. $80 million. 80 million. 80 smil. But he's still got to pay for his kids private yachts. that's, that's, you know, the cost of doing business.

Connor R. The boys, hashtag Tuesday boys, three Zs. Really earn those extra Zs this week. I don't know if that means extra because of the sleep or are we? No, Zs, hold on. I think Zs to me are like the Buckeyes on an Ohio State helmet. You have a good, uh, you have a good podcast episode of the Buckeye. We're going to, when, when we go over this and tape.

We have video day on Wednesday where we go over our best plays from the pod before. They're constant pickering and Craig's inability to not mention Wilco or music to my ears. Dude, we're on a streak. This is like probably seven out of ten in the last episodes we've done. You've mentioned you've mentioned welcome one way or another. Is that true? I mean, I don't doubt it. Well, well, I shouldn't just say you.

Both of us, we both talk about them. What? You see, next week we'd see a dissertation on the 90s punk or vinyl from Sean, which if I can find a way to link that to hockey,

which God knows I've done, I've done more ridiculous things in the past. Can I just say, I'm going to put the gauntlet down to producer Jeff. Just throwing this out there, producer Jeff.

If you get Jeff Tweedy on, that's, you can earn a buck guy. Yeah. Jeff Toeey, big, big hockey. Big hockey.

Love the Blackhawks. He's got big thoughts on, you know, Denny Savard or whatever Connor A is bringing up the Russo Army which I've brought up multiple times

Just be careful if you bring up the Russo Army Be prepared for what comes next We may take over tipsy McSwaggers Connor Wrong McStaggers You can have tipsy mixed waggers Learn your tipsy McSaggers reference

Learn your Simpsons references And make it a Minnesota Wildbar just for fun. I have no doubt that, I will say, I have no doubt that whatever bar they go to, be it tipsy mixed waggers or mixed daggers, that the Russo Army can,

pretty much. It's like, it's, they're kind of like the Hells Angels. Kind of. You know, whenever like, like,

bikers take over a bar or whatever, like, I can't go there anymore. So if we ever do a... Except this way, except this with, like, passive aggressive people from, you know,

War Road, Minnesota with... Mm. Home of a T.J.O. If we ever do a Tuesday boys meetup or when at Tipsy McStaggers, I think we get Rousseau's army to guard it. Like, what was he? Yeah, like at Ultimant. That's right.

That worked out well, right? Whatever happened with those folks. Slurms McKenzie is telling, how about this? Slurbs McKenzie is telling us to carry cash all the time, like a couple hundred at all times. Like the Wolf Farrell, I feel like I'm taking crazy. Oh, it's Jeff here. Slarm says.

Jeff. What? Because I was talking about, oh, we were talking about Canadian money. That's why I brought that up. I do carry cash all the time because my name ends in a vowel. Do you really? Yep. I always have a certain amount of money on me.

Thousands. Rob me if you see me on the street. Yeah, geez. Where are you located right now, blurred background? That is not in your business. A friend of mine, her dad always wears. like gold around like thick gold chains around his neck just in case he ever has to pay people off like that's like not because he's just like whatever I get caught at the border and I just need to

like who that we're thinking in those terms ever I'm not thinking like that I always have anytime I travel I have money on me like money money on me why would you say this publicly I don't care it's not it's really it's really not If you see a guy in Pittsburgh who looks like Chris LaTang. It's not a couple hundred dollars, but like, yeah, right. And it's 5'10 exactly. Right on the nose. Corey says, Craig, I'm sorry, I thought it was a job requirement for any plus 35 year old sports writer to be well versed in 90s wrestling knowledge.

Which that was when I made, someone made a Marty Genetti reference and I brought up the Rockers. The reference there, by the way, is that is that Marty Janetti and Sean Michaels were on a tag team in the early 90s. and Sean Michael just kind of squeezed out Marty Junetti and Sean Michaels ended up becoming, you know, one of the great stars of the 90s and odds in wrestling and Marty Genetti's just a guy. And I'm Marty Genetti in this scenario? That's right.

No, you just need to be careful. Gosh, another threat. Be careful. Corey, apology is accepted. What do we say? Don't walk past any open windows. Or barbershops, Corey's saying, don't do that. Also, sports writers are talking about,

about what we won't do on this show is talk about Bruce Springsteen like the old sports writers like to do because no we'll talk about Wilco like the young hip sports like yeah right that's like the people who's yeah there's uh I was gonna say the sons of people who talk about Springsteen but it's more like the nephews I feel that's right Richard S says the the Cichs are everyone's favorite players to hate this interview with Keith made the whole family far too lovable and I do not appreciate that. That's a good point.

If you don't like the kichucks, it's always like when you, you know, like people always hated Shane Done and you're like, oh wait, Shane Done, you know, when you hear him, he seems really nice. He's one of those guys. Shane Dillon is one of those guys. Whenever he talks, whenever he talks to him, you can see why he got a free pass from sports writers for, from media people for 30 years. He's that nice.

He's like, you're like, because it was always like, why does he? How come we're not calling that hit over the edge? We're like, wait a second, why does he never cross? It's really close, but it doesn't quite get there. I don't know what this hashtag is. Friday noise, is that a thing you guys have come up with on Fridays? The interview with Rod Brindamore presenting him as one of the most congenial people live. And I'm shook.

I just want to know the Kachukes as dirtbag pests and Rod is a McKinnon-level psycho with washboard abs. Is that too much to ask? Perception is reality, but you should know that Brady Kach is like a very nice dude. Matthew, I feel like, I feel like Keith sort of spelled the beans on that one. Yeah. He said that he said that Matthew would beat up Brady because he's a jerk, basically, is what the takeaway does. And Brady's too nice.

Shanna says, loved the interview with Big Walt. I wanted to give us a lot of credit for not calling him Big Walt, trying to be a little bit professional. It is really hard, really hard. But we're pros here. If nothing else, we're proper journalists. That's still, that's still a nickname. You can't really, I'm not down with that stuff, obviously.

But he's almost past the threshold there, I think. He's, like, he's not playing anymore. First off, he's old. He's, he's retired. And it's just kind of like replaced his... Big Walt. It almost replaced his name. Not quite, but those are tough.

Don't call players by the nickname. Makes you look a dork. David, how long until Maddie Baneers is the most marketable American on an American team. And who is the current top three? Is this one of those where we say, we're not going to answer now, we're going to answer later? Because it's a great question.

And then never and then never, never actually, never actually do. Okay. So we, let's just go, let's go through the list currently. I mean, obviously, unfortunately. Austin Matthews does not yet count because it is not, it is not the year 2024. He has not signed a deal with the, with the Arizona coyotes. Jack Hughes? Jack for sure

Zegers for sure In terms of marketability I think you know family member Dylan Larkin I think if the Red Wings get good he's got a lot of marketability

All those guys I think me and you talked about that at some point about just the wings in general is like I think maybe we talked about it when we were doing like a free agency preview or something and we saw it

we saw like with all the guys maybe they weren't there was there was like the huge fish that icerman went out and got but guys are going to want to play there there's going to be a that the team's going to be good and be the amount of money that that that you're going to be able to make on the side playing there it's going to be like significant um i mean phil's marketable in his own way and he's he's playing he's playing for an american team in his own way you have to be a little bit marketable you have to want to be part of the process right like phil doesn't doesn't have any interest in being marketable. The problem is that like, I, I,

we'll see what happens with Matthew Kuchukh, because I think by a lot of accounts, that seems like that's something he was interested in, right? It was being, being the best player on a, on a big market team. But I think he's, I think he's mixed in there. We'll see how, we'll see how that goes, because they're still, they're still building something in South Florida

to the point where I'm not sure I'd be comfortable calling anybody on that team all that much, marketable, but he'll be in the discussion. That's good. I mean, ESPN, this is on them to really, they got to pick somebody and just blow it up. I mean, with all the promos on Turner and all that in the States. The problem is that the player, is that the player team fits just,

it's not weird. It's not, just not great. If you held people down and like, whatever, made them tell the truth, you would not have Jack Hughes in Jersey or Trevor Zegers in Newhouse. It's all these weird. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's tough. It's, or even Matthew could chuck in Florida. It's tough. What about honorary American Cal McCarick's because he went to college? He's right there. You know, I think, man, I, we had the,

we saw the McKinnan, Tim, the new batch of, Tim Horton's commercials. McKinnon, very funny. Matthews came up and screwed with them in the drive, in the drive-through. That's one of those things where you're like, can't you guys just,

can we figure out how to do this, like a few more times and show that these guys have a pulse and they're not and they're not robots. It'd be great. And it was so I don't know. We'll see what happens with. Yeah, Kales, Kail's half hours. I agree.

Micah R with the final message here, unless you wanted to pick another one. Between all the talk of Kichucks and Haley and Sean's third segment on Friday, I'm reminded of a question I've had all off season. A question only the Tuesday boys, 3Z, unless we earn a fourth one today with a buck eye, can definitively answer. answer, and the only question about Calgary that actually matters, are the flames still honorary

Americans without Matthew Kachuk and Johnny Goodrow? If not, who takes their place is the most American Canadian hockey team? And this is a good question on Canadian Thanksgiving, the most American of Canadian holidays. I don't know if it could be the, I don't think it can be Calgary anymore. Yeah, you're right. Even though you pick them. You love, you're all in on the flames. Yeah, right. I mean, things change.

Like my, you know, just because I think a team is really good doesn't mean that they. They can be honorary American. I think you're right. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm nationally blind on stuff like that because I am, I am a professional. I don't know. It still should be them, I feel like. Just because we branded them that. No, I mean, like we need to find a team that as, it might be, it might be the senators.

I was just going to say, I think it's the senators. It might be the senators. Canucks are probably, in the discussion. Well, I mean, Canucks have Quinn Hughes. Quinn Hughes, J.T. Miller. Yeah. Tyler Myers is a Avsy, I think. That's right.

Texas. He's a one of them. I think he's a Texas. Yeah. Let's go, let's go through. Actually, we're going to skip two of the names on this list. Josh and Morris, American, Shane Pinto American. I think we have our answer here. Brady.

I mean, the could check. Whenever they trade for chickering. Whenever they trade for chickering. Who's one of our Canadian American Canadians? Americans. Jake, Jake Sanderson. Future legend. This is it.

Yeah, it's obviously the guys. These are the guys. Congratulations. I'm going to have to like, the flames were easy to root for. I'm going to have to, like, change some senators. I've got some, you know, there's some, bang off some rust there to cheer on the senators. The Melnick daughters seem like.

That's what's, yeah. Also, I think we're in the, we're too soon for them to be good phase. So, like, everyone's, like, fired up about the senators this year. I don't think we're there yet. So, but they would, to answer Micah's question, it's them. When are we talking about the senators? I'm sorry to Calgary Flames.

You'll just have to subsist on being my choice to win the Stanley Cup, which is coming to Apple Podcast. That's right. That's a good... Sean and I are the Apple Podcast Plus Athletic Audio Plus bonus episode. We are going to take our season predictions over there. If you want to get the 30-day free trial, go sign up, and then it's just 99 cents after that.

Also... Thank you to everyone who left comments. Go leave a comment. Go to the athletic app. Click on podcast or audio or something. There's like some headphones. Then details. Then find our episode.

Definitely used to be headphones. I don't know if they're there anymore. Click on the DOM episode. There's simply no way to know. Oh, yeah. No. Also, Rob Pizzo, Mike Russo, and Joe Smith are doing the Wednesday roundtable. Tuesday, the Tuesday boys.

are going to be Ian and his Julian tomorrow. Weird. Do you call them that? They're going to come up with some bullshit that disrespects us. Work my words. All right.

That's what I say about those two. Mean. Too mean guys. So mean those two. Also, smash the subscribe button. Are we really doing this?

Do these videos exist? I tried to find them yesterday. So I don't know how to really like again I don't know how to find this but those of you who are YouTube literate find us and subscribe because apparently that's a thing so I did look it up to say okay I would I should do follow my own advice and subscribe and and there's an athletic YouTube which we're on like like I'm like oh yeah it was like I was like I was talking about Johnny Goddrae or whatever yeah but no one gave me the heads up I barely I'd shower before we

recorded these if I knew it was going to go on YouTube No, you wouldn't. And like all the comments were about Sean's appearance. A boy stinks. What's wrong with that? Really? What's wrong with this guy? Like, what is, is everything all right with the second guy asking Jan?

No, it's not. It's not. And that's, things aren't great. So subscribe, smash and pound and whatever else you do. Ring the bell. And ring the bell. Also, the offer is still standing. Those of you who waited to the last possible moment to subscribe to the athletic for just a dollar

month. For six months, go to theathletic.com slash hockey show and you too. And subscribe to the athletic, leave comments. And join the Craig and Sean Army of Champions. Special thanks to Dom. Special thanks to producer Jeff for getting Tweety for next week. And to my co-host, Sean Gentilly. Could be anywhere in the world with that blurred background.

Have a great week. Simply know what to say. Don't eat too much turkey to be, Sean. on whatever day today is