The Athletic Hockey Show - Is Brad Marchand the best trade deadline acquisition ever?

Episode Date: June 9, 2025

We’re just two games into the Stanley Cup Final, with Game 3 set for tonight in Florida, but the Oilers and Panthers have delivered a killer series so far. Which players are inching closer to a potential Conn Smythe? Is Brad Marchand cementing himself as an all-time trade deadline acquisition? And, are we expecting to see anything in Game 3 that we haven’t seen in the series already? Plus, the guys discuss where the Stars, and now former head coach Pete DeBoer, go from here.Hosts: Max Bultman and Mark LazerusExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Chris Flannery Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. Hey, everybody. Max Boltman here alongside Mark Lazarus for another episode of The Athletic Hockey Show. And Las, not to get out over my skis here, but I kind of feel like we're watching the best Stanley Cup final that we've seen in a while and probably the best that we're going to see for some time. I know it's been two games, but holy crap, have these first two games been so fun. I feel like you're putting me on the spot here where I'm going to be Mr. Contrary and Buzzkill right away. Oh, you're going to tell me some story about the 2010. No, no, I'm just saying like, I mean, look, I am loving this final as much as anybody else. These two games have been fabulous.

It's everything we could want. But, oh my God, the recency bias. Like, it's been two games. And the amount of times I've seen someone call this the best Stanley Cup final ever, it's unbelievable. It's like everyone has the shortest term memory. There's been so many great Stanley Cup finals. Like, this is great. If it continues at this pace, we can talk about it then.

But, oh, my God, let's all calm down. it's been two games. This is not a sample size yet. I'm not going to calm down because it's June 8th and there's not much hockey left. And right now, every time I tune into it, I am just thrilled by it. I mean, it is the conference final. Maybe this is part of it. The conference finals were so bland to me that I was kind of like losing steam on it.

And I was kind of like, all right, let's get this over with stage. These first two games have been revitalizing. It has been so fun. Overtime. The hot, the swings of it, right? I mean, the first period of game two, five goals scored, edge of your seat hockey. It's been special. Yeah, the dramatic.

Corey Perry scoring was 17 seconds left to tight. I mean, it's been incredible. Brad Marchand, of all people scoring the game winner, like, there's no denying. These two games have been just tremendously entertaining. And I know a lot of people were kind of like bummed out that we were getting a rematch, but I was kind of hoping for this because I think you need a rematch. You need two teams that have been through this before that have been tested like this, that know each other really well and don't like each other very much to get this kind of game.

And, you know, I think there's this belief that Edmonton is this pure skill team and Florida is this like gritty, gutty, almost dirty team. But the Panthers are tremendously skilled. And the Oilers are a lot more sandpapery than they get credit for. And they have made themselves so partly to match up with the Florida Panthers. We're getting everything we could have wanted in a Stanley Cup final so far. And, you know, we can only hope that it continues like this. Yeah, ask Rope hints his foot.

if the Oilers are a soft-skilled team right now. They're willing to play the game. What were they talking about? They couldn't get it to stop bleeding for like a day and a half. You remember how many Oilers fans were saying that he faked it? Even after he missed a game, he had faked it? Do you still think he faked it? My God.

Well, is it Bouchard? I think is Bouchard skated by him and gave him another one? Yeah, it was a nurse who did it. And then the next game, he comes back, and Bouchard whacks it right in the exact same spot. They've been through the wars. They're ready to play that game. and I think we're all better off for it.

I mean, Corey Perry's goal, you're right, a great moment. That's a guy similarly, right? You don't score that goal if you don't have a guy who's willing to go live at the front of the net. And that's what Corey Perry did. So I'm over the moon about it. Cory Perry, 40 years old, playing on the top line with Connor McDavid and hanging too.

Like, he's doing a good job up there. He is not dead weight. He's not just throwing the body around. He is keeping up. You know, obviously he can't skate like McDavid can, but he is a useful top line player on a conference championship team. It's kind of incredible.

And I will say, I'm not encouraging anyone to bet here. It's too late now. But we said on this last show that that Sam Bennett, 30 to one, Kahn-Smith prop, was absurd. That thing, courtesy of our friends at Bet MGM, is down to plus 475. I mean, he's been outstanding in this series again. But Brovsky actually, at plus 300, still the favorite among Panthers, McDavid, the favorite overall at plus 100. But people have caught on to Sam Bennett's impact on these playoffs. And I think if Florida does end up winning this cup, which this could go either way right now,

I do think he's getting the love he deserves now. Yeah, I think Bobrovsky's at the top of that list because, like, Florida's spread the wealth so well this year. They don't have anyone doing what McDavid or Drysail are doing. So you kind of almost default to the goalie in that situation. But Bennett, I mean, he's the leading score in these playoffs. He's got, what, 12 goals now? Like he is putting up Khan-Smith numbers now. And, you know, that off-season price tag just keeps going up and up and up.

Has Bobrovsky been that good for you, though? I mean, the scores would indicate. Some goals are going in. I'm not blaming him for all that. But has he been that good? I was surprised to see him still at the top of this. He's had a really good postseason. Remember, this isn't the NBA Finals MVP.

This is the Stanley Cup playoff MVP. And he's a big reason why Florida made it here in the first place. You're not going to put up a 940 against the Edmonton Oilers. I think everybody kind of understands that. But I do think that as this series goes on, if every game is four to three, five to four, he's not going to wind up winning the cons might even if Florida wins. I think Bennett is still, in my mind, the frontrunner for Florida. I think so, too.

I mean, 13 goals, right? That's, I believe exactly what Jonathan Marches so had when Vegas won and he was the cons smith winner a couple years back. I also have to say Brad Marchand, who's checking in at plus 2,500 on the BETMGM lines, I think has a really compelling argument. That line has been sublime for them. He's obviously got the, you know, the big goal in this last game or two big goals in this last game, three so far in the finals. I know it's the playoffs as a whole, but I do think you have to wait the Stanley Cup final most of all.

And it does get waited because you remember, the cons might this voted on, I think it's either 15 or 18 people now. And a lot of those people have not been covering the Florida Panthers throughout the playoffs. There's going to be a bunch of Florida Panthers writers, and there frankly aren't that many Florida Panthers writers. There's going to be a bunch of Edmonton Oilers writers. And then there's like an equal third of national writers. And a lot of them don't come in until the Stanley Cup final or they don't come into the conference final. So what Brad Marchand is doing, they see it. They notice. They know exactly like that's in their face.

Brad Marchand is playing, you know, huge clutch hockey winning games, scoring huge goals, killing penalties, scoring short-handed. Like, he has a very realistic chance at this because he's doing it at the right time. We've seen that with Patrick Kane in 2013. We've seen this a lot. Marches-so is another one who didn't do much in the first two rounds, then went nuts in the last two rounds, wins the Khan Smite. So Marchand does have an outside chance, and you're right. I mean, that line with Luosterinen and Lundel, like you wouldn't think those would be,

that would be the line that would, but three, 200 foot players that are showing a lot more offense. And I think Lundel and Loosterinen, we didn't know they had that offense in them. Marchand, I don't think we knew we still had that offensive in him. And it's been really fun to watch that line go. Yeah, the three of them just seem to compliment each other. So, I mean, it's cliche, I guess, to say they're all playoff players,

but this is why teams value that player type, right? They may not be your leading scores in the regular season, although Marcian certainly puts up his share of offense and has through his career. But when the games get hardest, their style really translated, finds way it arguably gets better. And they're so frustrating to play against. I mean, how good was that line in game seven against Toronto? How many times do you notice them? I feel like every period, there's three or four shifts.

You're just like, oh, what a play. Great play by that line. Like, they're doing everything right. Yeah, both ends of the ice, too, right? They seem to be able to play however you need them to play. Like, if you're chasing a goal, they can go get you that goal. But if you're protecting a lead, those are the guys you want to. out there to protect that lead. They can kind of shift into that defensive mode. And even when

they're going for it offensively, they never really yield too much defensively. They're so smart and savvy. And, you know, someone's always, you know, playing behind and letting the other two go forward. It's like having three centers on that line. And the way they're playing, you can just put them in almost any situation and you know they're going to do well for you. I know I came in hot, right? I know, I do respect your point about, you know, honoring the history and knowing that we're just two games in. But this is where I think what excites me the most is it last year, we got a seven game series for sure right it's a good series but it was 3-0 and then the push back in the series kind of rhythm was this like blitzkriegs by both teams it was a good series

in total in total that's right good games yeah every game right now is that back and forth there's just kind of this dance of like you know a little basketball like like my run your run right and okay we're going to go up now and then we're going to try to withstand whatever's coming from you and I just find something so aesthetically pleasing about how this is gone. These are not teams that are just trading chances back and forth one way. This is tight playoff hockey. And yet we're getting a bunch of goals because they're that talented. And it's been so push and pull that way.

Yeah. And what's so exciting about it is like when one team takes over, you never feel like the other team's out of it. Like when I was watching that Dallas Edmonton series, when Edmonton would take over and just kick it into that extra gear, I'm like, oh, Dallas just doesn't have this anymore. Like it's not going to happen. This game is over.

You never feel like that. Like the first period, Edmonton comes out flying. You're like, all right, pushback is coming. And then sure enough, that pushback comes. I mean, what Florida has been able to do in the second period on the road, when they have the long change and they're able to pin the oilers deep in their own end for these long sustained shifts,

they're going to be able to do that even more at home coming up. But you just know that no matter what Edmonton throws at Florida, Florida can respond down the road and vice versa. Both these teams, they have that unerring self-belief you have to have to be able to make it to consecutive finals like this. and it allows for that ebb and flow in those runs to happen because neither team ever feels like it's out of a game. What has surprised you most about these first two games?

We'll get to game three shortly, but what has surprised you most that has played out in the first couple? Oh, God, I don't even know. I don't know if anything really has surprised me. I got one. I got one for you here. All right, give it to me. Alexander Barkov, who just won his second straight Selke,

being a dash four jumps out at me. Now, I don't think that dash four tells the whole story. Yeah. But I don't think we've really seen his full impact. impact yet either. I think we're going to in Florida when Paul Maurice has the matchup, right? But, I mean, he's been, he's been about a, what, a 40% expected goals player playing largely against the McDavid line? You take that. That's a win. In my mind, if you go 40, 60 against the McDavid line, I'll take my chances with the rest of my lineup against the rest of their

lineup. I don't have any problem with the way Barkov's been playing. McDavid hasn't, I mean, he's made some just insane plays. The assist he had to dry saddle. We'll be talking about that one for years, but he hasn't completely owned a game the way he's capable of owning a game, right? He gets his three or four points every night because he just does. But I don't feel like Barkov's getting caved in. I don't feel like he's getting swamped out there. He's not underwater that badly. No, it's actually in totality, he's just under 50% expected goal share at 515.

You're right. It is 40-60 against the McDavid line. And I think a little better. They made a change from game one to game two, putting Verhegey back with Barkov and Reinhart. And I think that obviously helped. But I don't know. I consider Alexander Barkoff to be one of the top five at worst top 10 players in the sport.

I thought he was outstanding in last year's final. I'm just waiting to see just a little bit more. But I do, you're making a very good point. If his job is just neutralized McDavid, which McDavid's got five points here so far, I don't know that we can say he's been neutralized. But I think he's only down 01 to McDavid head to head at five on five. And that is pretty significant. I'll tell you, I don't want to say it surprises me because I did think this was a pretty

even series, but just how even has been has been just astounding. I was looking at, you know, natural statric before we came on the air here. And the expected goals for, expected goals against, it's 7.03 to 7.02 in favor of the oilers. The oilers have a 50.04 expected goals percentage at 5 on 5. You cannot have a more balanced series in this at 5-5-5. Obviously, the power play situation is terrifying for Edmonton, although Brad Marchand keeps scoring short-handed goals, who knows. But it's just the leveling of this series has been remarkable.

Very small sample size, again, two games. But if we get that for a seven-game series, then we can start talking about this being the best one ever. No, no, you heard what you were doing midway and you tacked it on. You're coming around to Team Best Series ever. I love this series. It's just been two games, man. I want to talk about Marchand, because our producer, Chris, who is great,

and he always comes up with great ideas for us to talk about, threw this out there this morning and almost made my head explode. I wanted to just, like, start banging my head against the wall. He asked, is Brad Marchand the greatest trade deadline acquisition ever? And the recency bias drives me nuts in general. We always everything, like, you know, watching the French Open, we were recording this Sunday night, watching the French Open men's final this morning.

We're like, that's the greatest match. I've ever seen. I've seen, it was amazing, don't get me wrong. I've seen seven Federer Nadal matches that were better than that. Like, come on, man. Like, let's remember that other people have existed in the 100 year history of the NHL. So tell me, is Brad Marchand the greatest trade deadline acquisition ever? I don't know because I, my Rolodex of trades doesn't go back that long, but in recent memory, you know, the pick was originally a second. It's now upgraded to a first because of how far they've gone, that probably hurts the case a little, right? Because that was one thing that was a big separator.

We're factoring in the cost as well? I would, but maybe not. I don't know. You don't think we should. You win the cup. Who cares, right? I mean, it doesn't matter what the cost is. You win the cup.

It's worth it. Absolutely. But it's especially good if you do it for a second round pick versus a first, you know, all that. But, I mean, the point is it's among the best, right? I mean, and probably the better question, more so than Marchand specifically. Is this the best deadline? because they also got Seth Jones in this and he's been really good.

I was going to mention Seth Jones, yeah. The only thing I can go back to are some of the Tampa trades, right? I mean, they pull Hegel. They had the year where they, and Paul in the same year. That was a fantastic deadline, I thought. They had the year where they get Coleman and Barclay Goodrow. That one results in a couple of Stanley Cup. So that's the one that jumps out, although I like the shamed.

They got the one where they gave up 37 draft picks for Tanner Geno, too. That one would not be a high on my list. Well, look, okay. When Chris sent that out, I had seven names immediately pop into my mind. And I went back and I looked up their numbers. And look, okay, look, just three years ago, let's not forget what Arturi Lekinen did for the avalanche, right? You had eight goals and 20 games. I think it was like 14 or 15 points.

Clutch, clutch, clutch, repeatedly winning. I hear a couple of overtime winners in there. I go back to 2015. A year I covered Antoine Vermet, had three game winning goals in the last two rounds, including two in the Stanley Cup final. That's pretty good. The one I really come to is 2014. LA Kings, Marion Gabbrick.

He had 14 goals that postseason in 26 games. Two years before that, the Kings again. Jeff Carter, eight goals and five assists in 20 games. Go back to Marion Hosa. The Penguins didn't win in 2008. Marion Hosa had 12 goals and 14 assists in 20 games for the Penguins that year. Go back two years before that. Remember Dwayne Rollison?

Oilers didn't win either, but they picked up a goalie at the deadline. We never see that. And he had a 927 percentage taking the Oilers to the Stanley Cup final. And then he'd go back to the year I was born. In 1980, the quintessential, the stereotypical trade deadline glue guy acquisition, Butch Goring, who had 19 points and 21 games that year and was a huge part of four straight Stanley Cups. Let's just dial it back on Broad Marchand is all insane. Great player.

Narrative-wise, it might be the best one just because it's Brad Marchand. Brad Marchand makes everything more interesting and more fun and more controversial, all that. But come on, man. Let's dial it back a little bit. he's been at the center of a lot of this, partly because I think, like what you said, the history,

I mean, the Leaf series, he's just been such a leaf killer that there's so much spotlight on him through all that. There's the great Dairy Queen bit that SportsNet's been doing that I do find very amusing.

And obviously he has the, you know, the huge goals in this game. Seven goals pretty good. I think when you put it statistically in the, in the Gaboric context, that's a pretty hard one to beat.

These were just out the top of my head. I'm sure I'm missing completely obvious ones that were, from the gap in my own knowledge, for, you know, in the 90s and the early 2000s, this was all the top of my head. And I'm not exactly, you know, Sean McIndoo here. I don't have this encyclopedic knowledge of hockey history.

So let's just dial up. Brad Marchand has been a fabulous trade deadline acquisition. I'm not even sure he's been the best one for Florida this year. Seth Jones has been their number one defenseman. He's playing more minutes than Gustav Forsling, and he has been a terrific fit. I know he had a turnover in the last game that led to a goal. He also scored a great goal.

He has been huge for the Florida Panthers in these playoffs. And so like let's just dial it back as I'm saying. Well, that's why I say like I would almost rather zoom out and say, is this the best deadline that a, no, they got to win. I mean, in order for it to be, they have to win. And I am not. I know you seem to still think that Florida is the favorite of the series. I think this is coin flip and even maybe lean Edmonton with how this is gone.

Because I just love how they've taken Florida's punch so far. No, I certainly have no, I'm not leaning one way the other either. I think it's, I think the, uh, the expected goals is just about. dead on. This is about as even as it gets, which is great. I still just trust Florida's closing ability a little bit more. And right now they've got home ice. They've got three games left where they have the matchup advantage. And Edmonton only has two. And when you got a guy like McDavid, if you can do anything you can to slow him down with whatever matchup it requires, you know, I think that's just just enough of an advantage to make them just enough of a favorite.

All right. Well, let's take a quick break right there. We'll come back and we'll talk about what to expect in the first two, and really the first one of those home games starting tonight. All right, we're back. And Laz, I want to shift now from what we have seen to what we're going to see. So just off the top, is there anything that you're really keyed into ahead of game three tonight? I want to see if Florida crosses the line at any point, right? Like, we've been kind of waiting for this series to kind of explode. When you have the Panthers, you're always kind of waiting for something to happen that's really

controversial or dirty. We saw it with Ekblad earlier in the playoffs. We see it with Bennett all the time, with the Stolars. We kind of saw it a little bit with Stuart Skinner in game two. I want to see what happens the first time things get really physical. Like it's physical out there, but it's mostly clean physicality and minor post-wishal skirmishes, that's hard to say out loud. But I want to see what happens if Bennett takes a run at someone.

If Eckblad takes a run at someone, how does Edmonton respond? How does that affect the game? Are there, you know, suspensions? Like that's the one thing this series doesn't have yet is the controversy, and it feels like we're just hurtling toward it. Yeah, the closest we got so far does feel like Bennett getting pushed and maybe kind of knowing where he's falling, depending on what you believe, into Bobrovsky last game. I thought Edmonton, they responded there. Like, that was an extended scrum. I felt like could Chuck bore the brunt of that more than Bennett did, at least what they showed off TV.

But that was probably the closest we've gotten. I would imagine it's not the last time we're going to see. something like that. No, and the Bennett thing is funny. I think it might have been Jesse Granger who was talking about this, saying how the players have learned over the years that if you're tripped in the crease,

you can do anything. So they are like, guys like Bennett, they taught themselves basically fall into the goalie because, hey, something might happen, and then that's a win for you because that's part of your job. And it's a really dirty way of thinking, but it's certainly the way that hockey players think.

Were you okay with, given that, were you okay with him getting the penalty there? You know, I wasn't actually, because it was called so late. Like, clearly it wasn't called until they saw that Skinner was shaken up by it. And I've always, you know, whether it's suspensions or high sticks, I hate the injury determines the penalty, either it's a punishment, either it's a penalty or it's not a penalty. And they didn't think it was a penalty at first.

And then they saw that Skinner was slow to get up. They're like, ah, what we meant to say was two minutes for goaltender interference. I hate that. I hate it when a suspension is three games instead of two games because the other player misses a game, and I hated that the randomness of there might be a little bit of blood on a guy's lip is an automatic double minor versus a vicious stick swing that doesn't draw blood and is only two minutes. So that's what bothers me about that. Or doesn't draw visible blood, right? I mean, if you get a guy in the midsection, they're never going to check his

rib cage, right? Yeah. I do love when guys are like scraping at their gums trying to get blood out of there. Oh yeah, biting the lip, all that. I'm with you. I didn't like it either. And I thought it was maybe a little bit of reputation thing. I mean, Bennett's had these run-ins with the opposition and goalie in basically every round. And so I get it. You see Skinner hurt and you see, you know, Bennett's skating away and they're mad at him and you go, oh, okay, maybe I should call this. I don't love it because he did get tripped. And did he know what he was doing? I can't say. You know, like you alluded, I would imagine they know where they're falling. But that's been the standard. And if that's been the standard, I kind of think you stick with it. But they called it and

we'll see where it goes from here. Maybe that's a little bit of series management too, right? Like trying to get a handle on this now before it bubbles up. over, but you're right, we haven't really seen that. If the Panthers had scored on that play, would it have been overturned for goaltender interference? No, it wouldn't have. He was tripped into his own goal. You could see visible proof that there was a stick on his skate and he fell down.

So if that's the standard, then it shouldn't be a minor when there's not a goal. Like, it's just, it's not a penalty. It's a dickish move, maybe, but you don't get two minutes for dickishness. No, you're right. You're right. The thing I'm curious about, and really, I think we kind of hit this already, and you may have already swung me before we even really get to the topic based on segment one. I was going to say, I wonder if the Panthers do anything to try to get Barkov going.

You obviously have to keep him on McDavid a decent amount, right? That's why you have them on your team. But I do think you ultimately want your best player to put up a little more offense than we've seen from him so far. But I really do like your point. If you can go 40-60 against McDavid and you have the depth advantage that Florida has, you have this third line that's been so good. You know your second line will come through for you. Bennett certainly has been coming through for you. I think you might actually be okay.

I think you kind of swayed me in segment one that they don't have to change this matchup. If anything, maybe they lean into it a little more and try to get a handle on some more of those McDavid minutes where he's doing damage away from Barkov. It's tough. It's kind of counterintuitive. The better to your team is, the tougher this decision is, right? Because you could just put Lundell and Loisdorhinen and Marchand on and let them just irritate the hell out of McDavid, that might work. But they're not better defenders. They're not better defenders than Barkhoff and Reinhardt.

But it frees up your, you know, in theory, it frees up your top offensive guys to be your top offensive guys. There are some teams like, you know, again, to go back to the Dallas Stars, last year in the conference final, you put Miro Haskin in on Connor McDavid whenever you possibly can because he is your only hope of stopping him, right? That's the guy that has to do it. Florida has options, man. They've got a lot of guys that you could put in that situation that might be.

be able to succeed. You could put, you know, just shadow him with Forsling. You could put that third line on him. You could put Barkov, arguably the best two-way player in the world on him. You have all these options and it almost makes it more difficult as a coach to try to figure out, well, I do have the matchup advantage now? Sasha Barkov is my best player. Do I free him up? Or do I keep using him in this, you know, more defensive role to stop the greatest player in the world? It's a fascinating decision. And I'm honestly, I'm sure Paul Maurice has not made up his mind yet on what he wants to do and I can't wait to see what he does. I mean, frankly, let's marry these two things.

Would you put the Bennett-Kichuk line on there and see how McDavid goes with the physical gauntlet that those guys would provide? You probably sacrifice a little too much speed to be doing that against McDavid when you're putting that line out. But it's not, it's not, it wouldn't be unheard of to go with that level of physicality against McDavid. I love the idea, but can those guys get to McDavid to hit him? Are they fast enough to do that?

These are, these are the things you have to, McDavid is so singular. that it's really difficult. And is it different if, you know, dry sidles on the line or if he's got his own line. Is it different if Perry's on the line or if it's like Ryan Nugent Hopkins, who's, you know, a game time decision right now? There's all these kind of like moving parts to this. And it's going to be a cat and mouse game where, you know, Florida's going to put out X line against McDavid. And then Nobloc is going to try to counter that by freeing up McDavid by putting this guy on that line or this guy and sneaking him in for a double shift here and there where he gets an opportunity against a lesser line. And it's going to go back and forth and back and forth.

and, you know, whole mice advantage is an advantage. It's a huge advantage to have the last change, but it's not some unavoidable thing if you're an opposing coach. You can free up your guys if you have to. And Knoblock is going to be able to find time where McDavid gets favorable matchups. That's where he has to strike. Yeah, for all the talk that coaching gets in the regular season, right?

I mean, we fire coaches a month or two into the season because things aren't going well. The playoffs are where I do think the coaches have a serious impact on the game. I often kind of actually downplay it. And I just go, yeah, it's just goaltending. It's just this. It's just that. You're doing too much by blaming the coach for this.

In the playoffs, when you have these matchups and the chess match of it all, I think the coaching impact might actually even be a little underrated. I think that there are certain coaches that have the ability to really affect the outcome of a playoff series. Joel Quenville, when he had those Blackhawks, his record, I don't have it at the top of my head, but his record in games four, five, and six, he was like 15 and one or something insane like that. because by the time he got a few games under his belt, he had you. He knew exactly how to beat you home and road. And, you know, when he went up against someone like Bruce Boudreau,

who was a game seven disaster, there was no doubt who was going to win that. And the coach had something to do with that. There are plenty of coaches who aren't good enough or aren't impactful enough to affect it. But the best guys can. Paul Maurice has been around for three decades. He knows how to win a playoff series. And Chris Knoblock has been very impressive in his couple of years here. He knows what he's doing.

So these are two guys that, They're not going to win or lose a series single-handedly, but they can certainly affect a series. Yeah, it's always tough with Knoblock for the same reason that we all struggle, I think, so much to, we're talking about this at the Combine. We were watching one of the games. And somebody said, it's hard to evaluate all the Oilers because it's impossible to isolate how much of anything is the McDavid effect, right? And that also applies to coaching, right? Like, I want to make the point that, hey, look at the comeback they made from down 03 to even get it to a game seven. last year. Look at the comeback in the King series this year. Like, these are feathers and knob

locks cap. At the same time, I think we're giving a lot of that credit to McDavid and to dry suddenly here too. So for the same reason that we struggle to isolate the impact of those guys when it comes to a value in the other Oilers players, I think we're going to struggle to do that, assessing the impact of the Oilers coach. Yeah, and Chris, he just peeled himself out from underneath the bus that I threw him under in the first segment to let us know. Quindville's record in games five through seven was 32 and 8. Yes, his teams were excellent, but he's He played the likes of the lightning and the Bruins and the Ducks. These were great teams, the Kings.

And he, you know, in elimination games and in when the series went on, he had you. He just was able to beat you here. A seven and one record in elimination games while coaching the Blackhawks. That doesn't happen by coincidence. No, no, it does not. So some things look forward to for Anaheim there. How about a little pleasant surprise for the Ducks fans sticking with us into June? Let's take another quick break right there.

I'll be right back. All right, Laz. Let's bring this home with some coach talk. the time since we last recorded, some rather big news. Pete DeBore, out as head coach of the Dallas stars. I don't think we're shocked by this.

We kind of said on the last show we had that, you know, if you pick a fight, if you're a head coach in 2025 and you pick a fight with the franchise goal, you know, it doesn't have to pick a fight. If you make it a decision where it's you or him, the coach usually isn't winning that fight anymore. I don't know.

He picked a fight, man. He benched the guy after two goals. He gives up two goals on two shots, neither of which were really his fault. One was a power play, point blank one-timer, and one was a breakaway. And then he calls timeout, and as he's done yelling at the team, and Ottinger is already halfway back to his net, he angrily calls him back to the bench to sit him.

So he basically, he humiliates him, makes him do this walk of shame. That's bad. And then after the game, the very first question, Taylor Baird asked him about the thought process behind him, and he basically says, the guy can't beat the Oilers. I have a big enough sample size to say that now. that he's not good. And it's like, oh, God, he's done.

He's toast. Because this is a guy, Pete DeBoar is one of the most fascinating hockey DB pages in the world, right? Like, all he does is win playoff round. He takes teams to the Stanley Cup. He's got two Stanley Cup final appearances. He has been to six of the last eight Western Conference finals. That is an astonishing record of success. Yet he's done it with three teams because he keeps getting fired.

This is the fifth time he's been fired because he wears. because he wears out his welcome so quickly. This is, you know, he lasts three, four years at a time. This was his third year in Dallas. They went to the conference final each time and he's fired. And it's kind of astonishing because he's so successful yet can't stick around anywhere. Yeah, I mean, there is the Shane Estat that like coaching tenures now are averaging less than three years. So I guess we could say that is common.

But I would imagine not so for people who have his track record of success. Right. I mean, there's a lot of coaches who Rod Brindamore, right? I mean, Rod Brindamore is not going beyond this, but he's got a much longer, you know, welcome in Carolina than Pete DeBore seemed to have anywhere. That's probably not a coincidence. I mean, we talked in the last segment, though, about these coaches who find a way to impact a series. I mean, his game seven record is kind of the stuff of legend. Yeah, but the problem is, look at his game five and game six record.

It's like, he's the first one to tell you that. He's like, I shouldn't get to game seven as often as I do. It's just, it's so hard to get a feel for what he does that is so successful. Part of it is he's just getting hired by good teams because he has the track. It's like on a self-fulfilling, right? He's got this great track record of getting teams deep into the playoffs. So when you have an opening on a pretty good team, you go get Pete DeBore. He gets you two or three rounds.

And then after three years, you haven't won the championship. You're starting to get antsy. You're in your window. So you fire your coach. And, you know, we had the, he's, this isn't even the first time he went after the goalie. We got the famous, you know, Pete DeBore's sword with the back of Mark Andre Fleury from Alan Walsh in Vegas. You know, that was within.

minutes of that press conference, I was getting people tweeting me, Facebooks, or photoshopps of a sword through Jake Ottinger's back with the bore on it. I mean, this is a history. And the fascinating thing is, where does he go from here? Right? I think he's like 55, 56 years old. He got a lot of good years ahead of him. He's got an amazing track record. But he has had a job every single year since 2008, a head coaching job every year since 2008, even though he's been fired five times. But now there's no jobs out there. And, you know, if there's a firing midseason, do you go get Pete DeBore?

Probably? Yes. Probably the guy who gets that job? But who's that going to be? Is that going to be a good team? Is that going to be a bad team? Like you said, as Shane has pointed out, the tenures are so short here. Who's even on the hot seat right now?

No, you're right. I mean, and the teams that, you're right, there's a profile to the teams that hire Pete DeBore. And I think the teams who fit it right now have coaches that are either, too established to consider something like this. What I'm thinking Colorado and Jared Bedner, I'm thinking Carolina and Rod Brindamore. I don't think we're talking about those at all.

And then there's a couple of teams that I could argue it for, but their coaches are too new. I'm thinking L.A. with Jim Hiller or New Jersey with Sheldon Keefe. You know, Jim Hiller blew that series in a lot of ways. We talk about coaches impact on playoffs. It was year one, and they just hired Ken Holland, who has got a lot of familiarity with from his time in Detroit. I highly doubt they're making that pull, that switch right now.

So I don't see an obvious landing spot for Pete DeBore before next season. But I do think there's always one of these jobs where a contender starts slow and they want to shake up the room. And he's the perfect candidate for that. I wonder if we see something like we saw with St. Louis this year where all of a sudden a guy becomes available and you push your guy out the door because you like that other guy better. There might be teams more apt to fire a guy early in the season next year just because Pete DeBore is available. Well, isn't that how it happened with Vegas? Didn't San Jose fire him and then Vegas fired their coach to hire Pete DeBore? Pretty much.

Yeah, you got hired midseason that year. Yeah. Because he's just a guy who's like, well, this guy is a safe bet. He's going to get us at least to the conference final, which is something that no other coach in Lee can say. It's funny, though, you mentioned Bednar and Brindamore. Because I feel like there's a little, you know, I covered that Star's Avalanche series.

And there was a little bit of momentum about, has Bednar lost the touch a little bit? Are they squandering this incredible, window they have with this incredible team. I don't know how much I buy that. And Brindamore feels untouchable, but we're starting to see a little bit of criticism of Brindamore and his stubbornness and his utter refusal to ever change what the Carolina Hurricanes do and how once they get to play a great team in the conference final, it's not enough. So I wonder how what does it take for those two guys who feel like aside from John Cooper, probably the most stable coaches in the league,

what would it take for them to get pushed out the door? How bad a start would you need next year for those guys to start getting on the hot seat. Well, Carolina, I think, feels like its own conversation, both because of Brindamore's history with the organization as a player and all that, but also because of how core he is to their identity. Sean and I talked about this on the show a year or two ago, and we were talking about how Carolina doesn't really have a face of the franchise player because the face of the franchise is Brindamore.

The identity of the franchise is Brindamore. It would not shock me if you took Brindamore out of that equation. if Carolina kind of dropped into being a pretty average team. And I say that, like, loving a lot of their players. I love what they do. But it all kind of runs through Brindamore. I don't think you can even really have that conversation. I mean, at some point, I get your point.

Like, there's a, there's a endpoint to this that everyone's trying to get to and they haven't gotten there. But they've been around it forever. I don't think they're coming up, like, embarrassingly short. It's just getting frustrating there. And I don't know. I don't know what the break point is. I don't think we're close to it personally. No, you're probably right.

And you're 100% correct that Brindamore is the identity. He is the face. He's the guy that when you think of the Carolina Hurricanes, he's probably the only coach in the league that he's the guy you think of before they think of any players. And he is great at what he does. Like the sustained success they've had is undeniable. But yeah, like there's, it feels like this conference final where it was just yet again

in the conference final when they fell down 03. It was like, oh my God, maybe this guy just can't get him over the hum. Maybe he's a guy who's a great regular season coach and a great early round. But once you put him against a really good team against another really good coach, he doesn't make the adjustment. He doesn't do that. And I wonder how many years does that have to happen for this singular coach? And there's no other coach in the league quite like him because of all those things you mentioned.

What would it take to get him on the hot seat? And I don't think we've seen it yet. But this was the first spring where I got where it was like even like people were even daring to say anything negative about him. So that might be the start of a long gradual process. I think the difference is, when we talk about the teams that are doing this, those are teams that I think generally feel like they've underachieve the talent on their roster. Do you think Carolina has ever underachieve the talent on their roster? If anything, they've overachieved by getting this many conference finals.

No, you're 100% right. I'm not here to say Rock Limanmore is a bad coach. I'm saying he is a stubborn coach and he's going to have to adjust and adapt at some point here to get that team over the hump. Yeah, I think it's a more valid debate on like a Bedner or a Hiller than I think it would be on a Brindamor. Hiller, Hiller is like you mentioned him and like that's when the gear starts spinning in my head. That seems like the way things ended last this season in the playoffs, if they stumble out of the gate, Pete DeBore's that coach by mid-November. I mean, also like they just play such a DeBore translatable style of hockey to that heavy L.A. I don't, I could see it.

And I'm not trying to, you know, put that on Jim Hiller. completely, but the series did go really awry there. I would feel bad for him if it happened, you know, after a year and a half. But it's probably the situation to watch the closest, if nothing else. We're seeing more than ever a guy's getting fired after one year now. Yeah. You know, a new GM comes in or they just want to change things or there's a Joel Quinville available. And, you know, we're seeing it more and more. It does, it does feel like, you know, a very cutthroat business has gotten even meaner if that's possible in the last few years. So where do you go if you're Dallas from here?

I don't know. It's a great question because they got all the pieces, right? Like they are built for such sustained success here. Jim Nill has done such a good job. There's a reason he keeps winning GM of the year, and it's not just because it's only the first two rounds of the playoffs that get voted on. But they've got so many pieces down with Rantoninin signed for eight years.

Hince isn't going anywhere for like six or seven years. Ottinger's signed for eight more years. Robertson is still there, you know. The only real UFAs they have are Jamie Ben and Matt Dushain. and, you know, the way that those guys performed in the playoffs, I mean, Ben was completely invisible, but he's your captain. Do you bring him back? He wants to come back.

He says he won't play anywhere else. Nill told me himself he's going to sign him, but I wonder if the way things ended changes that. Dushain had a good postseason but couldn't score. Like, you watched him play, he was effective. The puck just didn't go in. But he's your top score. He had 82 points and 82 games.

He can go cash in somewhere else. This is one of the few teams in the league that really is cap-strapped, right? even with the cap going up, because of the ranting contract, there's not a ton of flexibility here. So unless you're willing to trade a Jason Robertson to bring in maybe a little bit more sandpaper in there because they showed no grit or anything the way that the oilers were manhandle. You shouldn't get manhandled by the Oilers. They're not the Florida Panthers, even though they're hanging with them. The way they had no response at all to Rupé Hintz's foot being broken and then almost rebroken, these things are concerning. and their flexibility is limited to really bring in some tough guys.

They've, you know, this year they brought in Rantin, and last year they brought in Tanniv. And the year before that, I think it was Dadov. They're not getting over that conference final hump either. There are three straight trips to the conference final. It's good. It's not good enough. And I don't know how you drastically change things aside, of course,

from bringing in a new coach. Right. I mean, obviously, and they're going to do that. I do think Bishel coming into his own more, like he's got a lot of nastiness. He might go into the, their nastiest non-Jamey Ben player over time, especially the more minutes he's able to take. So that's, that'll help in that regard. But you're right.

There's some roster things to figure out. I just still think it's going to be a very in-demand job. I mean, Jay Woodcroft is going to be the obvious name that everyone throws out. He's probably the highest profile guy other than Pete DeBore currently available. He's got the nil ties from Detroit. But I think anyone Dallas called would be highly, highly interested in this one. But that's the thing is who's left, right? I mean, you mentioned Woodcroft, sure.

are you going to bring in like, you know, the Texas stars coach or a top HL coach? Do you go after like, you know, a rising star? Do you need like a veteran voice for a veteran team like this? Mike Sullivan probably could have done wonders with this team, but obviously he's already taken. He's gone in New York. Joel Quenville could have done something like this team, but he's already in Anaheim. It's tough fighting your coach in early June because there's no, the musical chairs has already been spinning for a while and the music stopped.

And here is Dallas with, you know, holding a. chair in his hands. It doesn't know where to go from here. It's really interesting. Is Jay Woodcroft, he's probably the biggest name left, but it's because he's the only experienced name left. I don't know where you go from here. Do you need the opposite of DeBoer. Do you need a different kind of coach? Do you bring in a similar coach? Experience, inexperienced. This is a team that can win the Stanley Cup next year and the year after that and the year after that. So the pressure to get a coach like that is massive. You're right. I would have loved to see Joel Quenville's expression when he saw that they fired DeBoar.

because Dallas kind of has all the advantages that Edmonton does in terms of like the quiet market and you kind of rebuild that way. But they're also ready to win right now. Anaheim has an amazing young core. Dallas has a pretty darn good like prime age core. Like you could win right now. And a young core behind it with your Wyatt Johnstons and your Leon Bischel and all that. Like they've got kind of three tiers. They've got the veteran guys.

They've got the guys in their prime. And they've got this next wave. Like this is a team that's set up for such success. it really is kind of reminiscent of those early 2010 Chicago teams that Quenville made such hay with. You got to think he's going, man, I should have stuck it out two more months. I'm tempted to bring up David Carl again, who has obviously Ardezars going back to Denver, and I'm sure hates being brought up into all this every single time. But I do think what you said about the more veteran team and maybe the more experienced hand,

that's kind of how I would do this. But I don't know if that's how they'll do it or not. I don't know. It's a big decision, though, because this team, can win now. And this could be the next, you know, three straight Stanley Cup finalist team. We've had a bunch of those lately. They're all from the Sunbelt. And this is another one with a lot of no tax advantages and a really good young core that could be in this mix for a long, long time. So you're going to make this higher. You better make it right. Two more little coaching notes. I want to get your thoughts on

David Quinn going back to the Rangers, a team that once fired him as head coach as an assistant coach on Mike Sullivan staff and Derek Lone going and joining the Maple Leaf. bench. Do you have any thoughts on either of these two? I have zero thoughts on those. This is what we do, right? We just hire former head coaches to become coaches again. We kind of see, they see this a fair bit. Like, we're speaking of Dallas, why not bring back Glenn Gulletson, right? He was, he's the, he's the Euler's power play guy right now. He's a former stars head coach. He could be your next star's head coach. The treadmill. It just moves, it just goes and goes and goes and the same names come back every time. And, you know, time is a flat circle in the NHL. Yeah, but I do think, I think, I think

these guys do learn from. I mean, you're going to see Jeff Blasher in Chicago this year. And I think that that's going to be a really interesting fit. I would have thought maybe he goes to a team that is closer if you had asked me at the start of this off season. I thought this could be the off season he gets a job. I would have thought it would be a team that's closer. But I do think he learned a lot out of doing this in Detroit. And whether he wins in Chicago or not, which remains to be seen, I still think the Blackhawks are a couple years away from being able to really expect that. I do think he's really good working with young players. And I think he's going to have learned even more going and being an assistant in Tampa and seeing how some elite players operate.

There's always those extra experiences that get rolled in. That's what Kyle Davidson's counting on, right? The second job, the second job you're always okay with. So he's like, all right, he's learned his lesson. Maybe he's now Bill Belichick, you know, after failing in Cleveland. That's always a realistic thought is that the second job is when they're going to come into their own. It's when these guys start getting like their third, fourth job. They're on their fifth or six NHL staff. You just start rolling your eyes like, can we get a little more creative than this? I don't know. I mean, you'd hire Pete DeBore in a second, wouldn't you? He's been fired plenty of times. I suppose you're right. He's got to get hired again. He's going to have a sixth job in a matter of months.

Paul Maurice had that same tag on him, and he's been the perfect guy there in Florida. It's funny. Last year, it was in the conference finals, we had what, we had Laviolette, who's been on 150 teams. We had Maurice who's been on 150 teams. And we had Pete DeBore who's been on 150 teams. So maybe that all of us, then I'm very much included that are always whining about the retread should shut up because the retreads, They seem to get there eventually. Well, this is why, okay, I talked earlier about how I can kind of downplay the impact of coaches on the regular season. And I think these are kind of tied together, right? Because I think ultimately there's a lot of sameness in the NHL. Yeah, you can run a different system, but you're probably never going to be the only one running your system.

Maybe a Carolina can kind of claim that, right? But there's a lot of, okay, there's only so many different ways you can forecheck. There's only so many different ways you can PK, right? These are a limited number of formations. There's not like this one scheme that nobody can. stop the Chip Kelly or whatever. What it ultimately, I think, happens over time is you get the reps with feel and you know what works to motivate guys.

What buttons not to press? Like yelling at your goaltender as he's skating back to the crease in game six, right? That's one beat the board. Maybe you should have learned a little sooner, but you learn from it, right? And you learn different things like that. You get the experience of knowing how a playoff series works, how a young player's career arc's going to go. You can talk to him from the perspective of, hey, I coached this guy who you grew up loving.

I coached him 10 years ago, and this is what worked for him. So I think that's related, right? It's not just about schematics. It's about feel. And I think that's why it tends to work for guys the longer they go, because they've had more reps to add that feel. I think that's a fabulous point. You're absolutely correct about that.

Because I've always said that, you know, most coaches are a dime a dozen. There's usually five or six guys that are like your Barry Trotses that can really single-handly turn a team around in a very short amount of time with the way that they play. But you're 100% correct. This is the time of year where it really does. that experience and that worldliness that Apole Maurice has really comes into play.

I think you're spot on there. Now we'll see if he joins the handshake line this time. That's going to do it for us. Thanks for listening to this episode of The Athletic Hockey Show. Please, if you're enjoying the show, leave us a rating and a review. Sean Gentilly, Sean McIndoo, and Frankie Carrado back tomorrow. Talk to you then.