The Athletic Hockey Show - Is Chris Drury the right person to fix the Rangers?

Episode Date: April 14, 2025

Max and Laz address Calvin de Haan's fiery comments directed at the New York Rangers, the disappointing season for the blue-shirts and if GM Chris Drury is the right person to fix what ails Gotham's hockey team. Chris Johnston stops by to discuss some of the other NHL teams who failed to make the playoffs this season, and what is next for the Sabres, Red Wings, Blackhawks, Bruins and Penguins. Plus, Scott Wheeler and Chris Peters from the Prospect Series join Max for a Frozen Four recap.Host: Max Bultman and Mark LazerusWith: Chris Johnston, Scott Wheeler and Chris PetersExecutive Producer: Chris FlanneryProducer: Jeff Domet Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic hockey show. Hey, everybody, Max Bolman here alongside Mark Lazarus for another episode of the athletic hockey show. Our NHL insider, Chris Johnson, going to join us soon. And we're also going to have a special Prospect Series segment with Chris Peters and Scott Wheeler to talk about the Frozen Four. But first, Laz, I wanted to talk about Rory McElroy. That is, I wanted to talk about Roy McElroy. Unfortunately, we will not be talking about Roy McElroy. We're going to talk about Calvin Dahan, who had quite the newsday.

I don't know if you saw this in Fort Lauderdale. Peter Baugh has a really good story up on the athletic on it. Walking on to the ice today for an optional morning skate, he said just wasting time and that it's effed how the Rangers have tweeted him. Sorry, treated him, that is. He did tweet shortly after that kind of in response to the tweet making it online or the quote making it online. Obviously, I don't think it's hard to figure out what was going on.

He's frustrated. He says he was hoping to elaborate more in a scrum setting and just frustrated with the lack of opportunity he's gotten. What do you make of this whole thing? You know, I covered Calvin Dahan when he was here in Chicago, and he's a pretty honest guy. You know, he doesn't really hold back. You know, nothing like this happened in Chicago,

but he's the kind of guy where you can see doing this, where he's been a scratch. I think it's 18 straight games. He got acquired in the trade from Colorado, and he wanted to, you know, he thought he was going to be a part of this Rangers team. And even as things just fell apart, he was still scratched.

They never thought to put him in the lineup. And, you know, he's a 33-year-old veteran. He's played a lot of good, a lot of games. He's played a lot of good hockey. He's not a huge difference maker. He's not going to single-handedly turn around your team, but he's a proud guy. And if you don't even get a chance, even when the team is falling apart and the coach just won't put you out there, I have to think that's about as frustrating as it gets.

Yeah, and he makes the point in the tweet, right? They were two-oh-and-one with him in the lineup, and you would like to think, if you're him, that, hey, things are going well. You get to keep it rolling. And I don't even think he would tell you he's the difference in winning and losing every single game for the New York Rangers. But when things are going well, you typically do see coaches stay with a winning lineup or a successful lineup. So I can completely understand his frustration here. But I think the reason that this is as big a deal as it is, right?

Because players get frustrated over scratches. That's not new. It's because it's the New York Rangers. A lot of reason. Yeah. It's the New York Rangers. And not just in a, hey, New York's the center of the universe kind of thing. but in a, this kind of thing seems like it's been happening with the New York Rangers all year.

They've been in the news at a Vancouver level, I feel like this season. And at some point, that does get the wheels turning on like what exactly, what level of dysfunction are we talking about in the New York Rangers and how big, I think we all knew some kind of changes coming to the Rangers this summer. How big could those changes be? Well, I think this kind of underscores a larger problem in New York is, is the way that they're treating players, right? Like, now, line-up decisions are almost exclusively the purview of the coach.

I don't think that Chris Drury was telling Peter LaVuette, you will not play Calvin DeHan. That would be very surprising. If that reporting comes out, I would be fascinated to read it. But we saw what Drury did with Barkley Goodrow, what they did with Jacob Truva, and now what this organization is done with Calvin DeHan. Those are three proud veterans, respected players who feel they were deeply mistreated by this organization. And now you have to ask the question is, is this how the Rangers treat players?

Because people around the league, players around the league, pending free agents around the league, notice this kind of stuff. Look at what Chicago did on Saturday night. Like Pat Maroon and Alec Martinez are not the future of the Blackhawks, right? They brought up like eight first round draftics in the last three years. It's all about the youth movement. But Maroon stayed in the lineup for most of the time.

And Martinez, when he was healthy, he got chances to, and they got the big swan song yesterday. They put up the video tributes and the teams were standing and applauding them. People notice that. And pending free agents notice that when you treat respected players with respect, your organization is more attractive. And the Rangers have been ruthless, just utterly ruthless. And in a lot of ways, that's good.

That's refreshing because they're trying to win. But if you routinely get a reputation for mistreating your veterans, you're going to have a really hard time signing them. Yeah, they can go either way. If you're ruthless and you win, you're the Vegas Golden Knights, right? Yeah, sorry, tough decisions have to be made. We're in pursuit of victory, winning at all costs. And I think you can keep the locker room by doing that because that's what the players care most about, too, is winning.

But if you're doing this and you're losing, it can get ugly in a hurry. And that is, you know, we'll talk to CJ at some point here about what he foresees for the Rangers off season. But I think a lot of our discussion has to be about Chris Drury and kind of the overall culture there. Because you talked about the Truba and the Goodrow things. That to me is the meat of this, right? The Dahan thing is kind of this most recent cherry on top. It's true, but it's Goodrow. It's Chris Kreider's name being out there as early as it was.

And he's maybe of all the players we talked about, certainly the most important to the recent history of the New York Rangers. So again, I agree with you. Some ruthlessness can be good and effective and, yeah, I think even embraced when things go well. But when it's ruthless for seemingly the sake of being ruthless, and I'm not even saying to Han is that necessarily. That's when you do have a problem attracting players.

well yeah i mean and they were you know trotting out cars and susy every single game you're telling me you couldn't have swapped in calvin dahan once in a while like it's just it's it feels so much more pointed when it's 18 straight games for a player you just acquired like in theory you wanted that player maybe it was done to balance the salaries i get all that but you acquired that player and then you treat him at a way where and i'm guessing there wasn't much communication like again to look in my own backyard in chicago t j brodie was horrendous this year you year. And he hasn't played since March 1st and he's healthy. But there was discussion. Like I think, you know, Brody hasn't been ruffling feathers and he understood the situation as they brought in young players. And, you know, Brody's probably going to be bought out the summer. And I think he's been pretty much told that. So at least they, it doesn't seem like the way DeHan is reacting. It's hard to imagine that they've sat down with him and had a, you know, an adult conversation with him about what his situation is, right? Otherwise, he wouldn't talk about the way he's being treated. If they were treating him with at least a little modicum of

respect. So I think that's the issue here. And you're right. I mean, if they were winning, it doesn't matter. And Chris Drury a year ago on top of the world, President's trophy winner. And he's put together this great lineup and he got Artemmy Panarin over there and all this great stuff. Now, I don't know because what are the Rangers right now? And I'm looking forward to talking to CJ about this because just about everybody is signed through next year. I got a lot of long-term contracts here. This isn't a team that you can quickly retool on the fly. It's going to take some time and some ruthless moves to get this organization back where it needs to belong. And it probably starts with Peter Lavie-Ale.

100%. I mean, in the coaching conversation will certainly be part of our talk with CJ. But on the player side of things, right, like the tough situation that the Rangers have is all the guys they have with expiring contracts are theoretically the guys you want to keep. Will Cooley has been one of the best, one of the few good stories of this season for the Rangers. He's going to be an RFA. I don't think you want him to walk out the door. Keandre Miller. Offer she candidate, man. that's such a high that that's an offer sheet that you can make and not cost you all that much money.

That's the kind of guy you target. And I think the Rangers would match. And I certainly think James Dolan's not the kind of owner who's going to want to let a guy get away via an offer sheet. But there's just this pattern. Candry Miller, I think would be one of the more valuable players that they could trade if they wanted to. And certainly another offer sheet candidate, right? But he's one of the guys in theory you want to build around. So the guys that you have the problem with are Zabanajad, who's at 8.5 million through like 2030.

Crider's got two more years, and I think he's got a full, he's got a full no move. There is a 15 team no trade. So maybe you get some workability there. But I think by the time you're at this point and you're talking about these key players and how do you get rid of them and whatever, you're already in the pit at that point. Right. And it's just, it's like the worst position to be in is when, you know, there's not much hope for the future, but your hands are tied. Like they have so much money and so.

many years tied up in guys that they probably don't want to be building around. Like, it's one thing if you have a core that you believe in and you want to retool around, like, that's what Boston did, you know, a handful of years ago where they still had Bergeron and they still had a, you know, it had McAvoy and they bring him in and they, they just, the Rangers don't have that. They have an aging core that hasn't won anything and that the team clearly doesn't really believe in because they've been trying to trade him forever now. It's funny.

Like early in the year, I was talking to Peter because the Rangers play the Red Wings like two or three times really early in the season. And Peter was texting me, the Rangers won all three. And Peter was texting me, like, the Rangers aren't good, I don't think. It's like, what are you talking about? Like, I, you know, I've only ever covered losing teams. They had just, every game I had seen them that year, they had won, pretty much going away.

And he was right. But I thought coming off of last season, this is a team that should be in the mix again, at least. Maybe they're not the favorite, but they had a good enough roster to be a conference finalist or a conference semifinalist and be right there. certainly with Igor Shostirken and goal. And now I look at them and I really would be strongly considering giving Pittsburgh that pick if it ends up in the protected zone, which it very well could top 13 on the J.T. Miller

trade because it's entirely possible that next year is even worse, especially if they're not able to make some big changes. So that's a really scary place to be for a team that's as old as the New York Rangers are. Yeah, 100%. Like they're just in no man's land right now. And there's, you feel like there's more and more teams kind of entering this like, oh God, we're screwed zone. After years of stability with who the contenders were,

I thought Tampa was going to be in this zone by now. I've learned not to doubt Tampa anymore, but they seem to be the exception, not the rule. There's all these teams that are just like, oh, God, what are we? You know, what are the Pittsburgh Penguins? What are the New York Rangers? What are the Buffalo Sabres even?

Like, what are these teams? They're just trapped. And as bad as things are in Chicago, as bad as things are in San Jose and Anaheim, as bad as things were in Detroit, at least there's some kind of direction happening in those places. With these more veteran teams that are that are kind of backpedaling, there's nowhere to go. It's going to get so much worse before it gets any better.

All right. Well, let's take a quick break right there. And we'll come back with Chris Johnson to talk more about the Rangers and this offseason. All right, we're back with our NHL insider at the athletic Chris Johnson. And CJ, right before you came on, we were talking about the Rangers, obviously, in light of the Dahan situation today. But just more broadly, we've been talking about the spot this team is. in. And it's a hard spot to be in where a lot of the players that you would think it's maybe convenient to move on from, it's not at all going to be easy for them to make any big moves. I would hesitate to ask you to predict James Dolan on anything. But what do you kind of

foresee from the Rangers this offseason? Well, I would say just because of how James Dolan and his teams operate, that they'll be aggressive. You know, the Rangers really, when you look at this season, we might debate whether it was for not or whether they should have taken this approach, but they were pretty aggressive in season in terms of moving out some some key parts of their team and making some of those decisions. They added players. They traded guys away. It wasn't a full.

You can't put them in one bucket through this year. I think they're really buyers and sellers. I think that you can see a little bit more of that on the horizon. I would expect them to be aggressive, you know, such as they can in free agency. I know they don't have a ton of cap space at this point in time. they've cleared up a little bit, but I mean, you know, we've heard Chris Kreider's name out there during this year. Perhaps there's a chance to look at moving him into the offseason. You know, I feel like they're a team and I'm pretty comfortable saying pretty much anything's

on the table. You know, wouldn't be a whole lot of players that would be considered untouchable. You know, obviously they've extended Chisturkin and he's part, I'm pretty comfortable saying, of what's going forward. But, you know, it's going to be an interesting offseason because you can't go from the kind of team that they were the last few years. And obviously last season, being the President's Trophy winner, or missing the playoffs and Stan Pat. I just don't, I don't see that organization going, well, maybe we had a few bad bounces, but we're going to run it back and see how it works out. I think that they're going to be pretty aggressive in moving out players, you know, obviously a very imminent decision on Peter Lavillette and his future

is their head coach. And, you know, I think there'll be some fireworks on Broadway. I figure we got the next eight weeks to talk about the good teams. So let's talk about some more teams that are kind of in no man's land here. The Pittsburgh Penguins, I mean, Sidney Crosby signed for two more years. Eric Carlson signed for two more years. Chris LaTang signed for, I think, four more years. Malkin signed for another year. What are the Pittsburgh Penguins?

What is the plan here? What do they think they are and what do they think they can accomplish? Loaded question. You know, I think that, you know, what are they? They're a team that as long as they have Crosby, Malkin, and Latang in particular, but I guess we can group Eric Carlson in there. You know, they're a team that's trying to sort of rebuild a little bit on the fly. I mean, you've seen, you know, you might not like the strategy, but they've been trading

for kind of guys in their early to mid-20s. They did actually end up loading up on a bunch of picks at the deadline, but that wasn't really their preference. It's just where the market went. You know, they've been trying to kind of just get younger because, let's face it, this team for all the banners that they put in the roof of that building is they didn't drive. very many players over the years. And as a result of that, they haven't developed prospects,

and that's kind of where they are today. I'm sure they look a little bit longingly, you know, down the road at the Washington Capitals and dream that that could happen for them. But, you know, let's face it, a lot of things have to go right to sort of, you know, get back into a competitive window the way Washington has, while still having Ovechkin and John Carlson there from their cup years and all the teams, you know, from the Crosby era. And so where are they?

I think they have to figure that out a little. bit. And, you know, it's kind of a delicate situation, I would say. I mean, Sidney Crosby is going to decide how the end of his career plays out. I mean, if he, if he wants to leave and move on, I would imagine it's going to be a one-team trade list, maybe a couple. But, you know, I think that it would be a case where they're honoring his wishes. You know, I think that that's something that Crosby really has to at least consider this offseason. You know, the conversation of the deadline is he didn't want to move then, but I don't think it was closed entirely moving forward.

I mean, clearly it's not his preference, but at the flip side of this, he's just missed the playoffs now for the third straight time. You know, I think that he's probably wrestled with the idea of abandoning the ship, so to speak, you know, I've got him Alkin,

for example, as long time teammate has one more year on his contract. I don't know if Crosby could ever bring himself to leave Pittsburgh, but, you know, at some point in this, you know, between now and July 1st,

those conversations are going to have to happen. And, and beyond that. You think Pittsburgh would prefer that? Do they almost want? want to kind of do what, you know, Philly did with Drew and Chicago did with, with Kane and just kind of move on? Or do they desperately need him and want him to stay? I think that there's probably people there that want both. You know what I mean? I think that

there are from the ownership level having Sidney Crosby in your organization, having him potentially be a career long penguin who maybe steps in the front office. I mean, I don't know what, what Crosby's aspirations are beyond playing, but, you know, you would think that that basically every door will be open to him if he finishes his crew out in Pittsburgh to doing whatever he wants and being sort of a living legend of that team. I think that there's a lot of appeal to that, but if you're on the hockey operation side of things, you might be looking at basically doing something more like a full rebuild. You might be thinking about what you could get for them, ripping off the Band-Aid. I mean, the truth is this organization probably should have done this

about four or five years ago, you know, before even hiring Kyle Dubus probably around the time when they brought Ron Hstall in. You know, that was the window. And instead, they re-sign Malk into the dealies on now. They resigned Latangue a six-year contract. Then ultimately, Crosby resigns. But, you know, they probably should have ripped the Band-Aid off sooner because they do feel a little bit in no man's lane.

Now, I don't see a clear path to them being any good anytime soon. You know, Crosby's finishing off here. He's probably going to top 90 points again, you know, at his age. There's not a lot of historical precedent for how productive and how effective if Crosby still is. And it's, it's kind of wasted. You know,

it's nice to have the ties to the past forever, but we haven't seen a legend in this sport go out with five straight years out of the playoffs. And that's, you know, Sidney Crosby staring down the barrel of that. And it won't be his fault. It's not because his game dropped off so much.

It's because there wasn't much around him. So, you know, it'll be fascinating to see how it plays out. I can certainly see a set of circumstances where he does play somewhere else. We know he'd prefer to be on the Penguins, but if you refer to be on a penguin's team that has a chance to win something, and right now that's just not the case.

From the penguin side of it, though, I feel like you alluded, there could be some people who might want to kind of turn the page mark. But while there might be some clarity with that, I do think teams like Chicago and Philly, at some point you look back and you go, was it really worth losing a guy like that? I mean, you look at Chicago.

Not having Kane and Taves around when Connor Bedard gets there. I think when you win the lottery for Connor Bedard, you start to go, I kind of wish we had a veteran captain. It was one of the great leaders of the last decade and a guy who, in Patrick Kane, who'd be a perfect kind of linemate for Connor Bardard setting them up. But I feel like Sidney Crosby takes that to the next level because he's kind of both

of them in one player. The question is, do you get Connor Bedard if you have those guys still in your lineup? I think that's the calculus you have to figure out when you're doing a tank. Well, and Pittsburgh's not at the bottom again this year, right? Like Boston's going to finish below Pittsburgh in this season and have better lottery odds and presumably get a higher pick.

I mean, and Pittsburgh desperately needs prospects. I mean, they just do not have enough. I know they picked up a few players they like in the Gensel deal at the deadline last season. And obviously they have drafted the last year or two since Dubus took over. But they're just, they're nowhere near being anywhere near where they need to be, if that makes sense.

And so, you know, I think that there'd be a whole lot of benefit to the league. But, you know, at the same time, people are, I know people in Pittsburgh are tired of this conversation happening elsewhere. They feel like Crosby's going to stay there forever. I just don't think there's much historical precedent for it.

I mean, if you look at whether it's Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux, like all the best players, they were on some bad teams, but very few of them were on teams that are just literally going nowhere while still being, you know, kind of living legends. And if you drop Crosby on a few teams around the league, you know, he could individually turn them in, you know, to a cup kind of team.

And for him, there must be at least some sneaky even in the back of your mind, like, wouldn't this be cool? but it's a risky maneuver and there's a chance he goes somewhere and doesn't work out and then he has regrets and I'm sure that's a lot of what he'll have to wrestle with, you know, once he gets to the off season. I wonder how much the Washington turnaround will affect GM's thinking because we have not seen a tanking team actually succeed, right? No cup, no cup winner has been a since in the cap era got there by tanking. There's a lot more buffaloes and there are Edmontons.

Edmonton had a tank like 16 different times to get to where they are. You know, Chicago is so many years away. Detroit's in like, year nine or whatever it is at this interminable terminable rebuild. Then he got Buffalo 14 straight years now without a playoff appearance. They're young. There's talent there, but it's clearly not enough. How do you proceed if you're the Buffalo Sabres right now?

Well, I think the danger is trading too many guys like Dylan Cousins, which I realize they already did. But I mean, you know, trading away your players that are 22 and 23 is not the way to do it. You know, if I could have the ability to nitpick,

like even what Chicago did, like I still don't understand trading away, Brandon Hagle when they did. I'm not saying I projected him to be as great as he's been so soon. But to me, you want those players that are going to be ready to be difference makers when you also draft guys, whereas stripping it right down to the studs doesn't work.

And so if you're Buffalo, I understand, like, what can you say at this point? Like this long out of the playoffs, you've had X number GMs. Like, it's not necessarily a coaching problem.

There's been so many coaches there. But I think the real danger is, you know, maybe Dylan Cousins becomes the next guy where that's going a long playoff run and we're like, wow, look, you get out of Buffalo and you look great. Sam Reinhardt, Jack Eichael, Ryan O'Reilly, you know, down on the list. You know, so I think if you're those teams, you really have to keep the guys that are in the right age band because when you're 23, there's still a lot of, there's a lot of rubber left

on the tire there for most players. I mean, and so, you know, I think that's the dangerous trading the young guys. I'd be, I'd be really patient with them. And then obviously, you've got to find some value bets and for agency. and just look for incremental improvement. I mean, if you look at the Eastern Conference this season, we don't yet have the final standings in front of us. We're pretty close.

I mean, there's not really that many teams. There's not anyone that's Chicago, San Jose, you know, levels of depths right now. I mean, there's a lot of teams that are basically 75 to 85 points that aren't making the playoffs, but are really not that far. And I realize the fans in some of those cities probably want to slap me for saying that.

But I think there's a risk in doing too much because you might make things worse than where you're at today. It wasn't just Brian Hagle. Go ahead. I was just to say the Hawks traded a 23-year-old Brandon Hagle, a 24-year-old Alex to Brinket and let a 24-year-old Dylan Strom walk, all in the name of getting an 18-year-old Connor Bedard and then having nobody to play with him.

Tanking doesn't work, guys. All three of those guys, like I don't know if they, there's all these what-ifs, right? But imagine having those three players with Bedard. Then you got, like, that's what, to me, that's what Columbus did this year. If you look at Columbus, like, it wasn't that long ago. They faced the decision with Zach Wrenski where they were, They were kind of a team going nowhere and they signed them to a contract.

And you're like, why are they doing that? But the alternative for them was letting a really, really good player walk away. And, you know, lo and behold, where they are now, they've stacked up the fantilli's, you know, some of these, these Russian players, they've had it. Like, they got all these guys that are like 23, 24 that are taking steps and it's driving, it's propelling their team forward. So, you know, I think that that's the move. You really, the problem is even the youngest players, like very few of them truly make a difference.

in the NHL. It doesn't mean they aren't NHL players. It doesn't mean they don't belong in a roster, but they usually don't really make your team that much better. Again, there's some outliers

out there. You would take Connor McDavid at any age. But you know, you need those guys when they get into the third, fourth, fifth seasons. That's when I think that

the real growth starts to happen and you want to stack those up at the same time. Now, that's coming again in Chicago. I don't know how they're going to pay everyone. I don't know what it's going to look like.

But, you know, it doesn't mean that they're not going to get it right eventually. Maybe it's like the Edmonton model where there's a few different versions of it before something clicks. But yeah, I just would be very cautious about trading sort of those mid-level guys that maybe aren't superstars, but are going to be really darn good players. You want them in their early to mid-20s.

Maybe Chicago is one of the answers here, but are there any teams you see as being kind of the teams to watch as we, you know, we're a long way from July 1, obviously. A lot can change, but you're really watching going into that you think could have an aggressive offseason. Well, Chicago definitely is one. I mean, they've made no secret of that. And I think that they want to be positioned to take a crack at any impactful free agent that might hit the market. You know, maybe they end up having to look at offer sheets if that's kind of where things go.

I think that, you know, if you're in the Blackhawks situation, you have to be open-minded. Obviously, great organization in terms of like people want to play there, great city to live in, you know, nice history with Stanley Cups. But, you know, you don't know what free agents are thinking at this point in time. And that's kind of a hard thing with NHL free agency. I think when it comes to the top free agents is, yeah, there's 31 other teams. You're leaving one team. There's 31 potential other suitors, but there's a lot of markets that some players, for whatever reason, just won't be going to.

And so I think Chicago probably doesn't know exactly where they land on everyone's list, but they're going to be willing to spend. I don't just say this because we're talking to you two. I know the Red Wings internally have a lot of desire to be aggressive in free agency if they can be. It kind of falls in. It's almost like the same things I just said. They don't necessarily know that, let's say, if a Mitch Marner comes available. They don't know if he'll take a meeting with them, if he's, they'll seriously consider

them, you know, if the money will even work like, but I think that they're going to go into this year, you know, targeting guys like a Marner or Bennett, you know, some of the, I'd say, more impactful forwards that are on the UFA board. Now, the problem is there's not, it's not a deep free agent class. And so, you know, I think that we could end up having a lot of trade activity with so many teams getting this extra cap space and just not having enough players to spend that extra cap space on that that make you want to do it. So, you know, I don't know where this is going to go, but those are two teams for sure. I think Utah is going to want to spend. I mean, obviously, they've, they've had a pretty successful, I'd say, first season down there. But, you know,

they're not going to want to be on this side of the playoff line a year from now. And I do think that there's a desire for them to add. You know, San Jose is going to be in the market for sure. They're not looking to finish bottom one, bottom two in the draft lottery odds next year. I mean, they want to insulate their players better. You know, I think this is an excellent time to be a UFA, not only because the cap's going up, but there's a lot of teams out there that I think are going to be aggressive if they get a chance to take a swing at those top names. There's probably a dozen teams out there dreaming of having Mitch Marner on their top line next year. What's the consolation prize? And Granthinen's off the board now. It's just Marner. Who do you see as the consolation

prizes. Like what if you don't get Marner, who can make a difference on your team that's going to be available this summer, either by free agency or offer sheet or trade? Well, Marner is sort of the unicorn of this draft. Like I, I'm actually compiling a free agent board right now. And so I've been speaking in the last week or so with some scouting people for teams. And like one guy recently told me the other day, he said, he's the only player I have as like an A player available in any way this off season. So it's not like there's necessarily a consolation prize, but, you know, you do have the Brock Bessers, you have Nikolai Yilers. Like you have other. talented forwards, if you're looking to, you know, maybe bolster your second line,

if you're looking for more goals, I think there are other players out there that can do it. But, you know, you're signing Marner to be kind of an all-world sort of guy. He kills penalties. He's actually very good defensively, even though he's a winger. Obviously, you know, he's on the verge of a hundred-point season. He's consistently been in the 90 points range for a number of years now. I mean, you're, he's kind of like a, you know, back-up the brink's truck kind of player for and you kind of deal with the cost afterwards.

It's like when you take a nice vacation with your family and you got to pay the visa bill a month down the road. I mean, I think that that's going to be the approach with a mariner, whereas some of those other names, it's going to, you're going to get a little nervous. And it gets thin pretty quickly.

I mean, after guys like Eler's investor, I'm just thinking of like scoring forwards, then you're getting into the older players, maybe Patrick Kane, for example, hits the open market this year or Matthew Shane, Shane, you know, guys that maybe we'll make, yeah,

Marshan. they're probably making different kinds of decisions. It might be more family related. It might not just be who's going to pay me the most amount of money or and obviously winning will be a factor. I think so, you know, it's,

there's not a lot there. Now, that's where the trade market comes in. And, you know, it's a little soon for me to be just tossing around the top 10 or 15 names. Toss. Do it.

Do it. But I don't have the guy. I'm not even holding back on you. I just don't have a sense what teams are going to be willing to do. But I, I just have to believe it's, it's like it's going to be an inefficient market. right. Again, great if you're a free agent and you're good because there's lots of people

with money and there's not a lot of use to bid on. But I just have to think when it's clear that certain players might not even entertain maybe Chicago or Detroit or Utah or pick all those teams I mentioned earlier, how else are you going to fill those holes? And I think that that's where the trade conversations will pick up as to be closer to the draft. Great stuff, CJ. We're going to take a quick break right there. Laz is going to hop off to when we come back. Chris Peters and Scott wheel are going to jump on. We're going to talk Frozen 4. talk to in a second. All right, we are back and we are joined now by the athletic Scott Wheeler and Flow Hockey's Chris Peters for a prospect series segment of the athletic hockey show.

And obviously we're going to talk about the Frozen Four today. Western Michigan winning the national championship. I think it's their first Frozen Four title for the Broncos. A fantastic accomplishment there for Pat Furschweiler and his team. Chris, I guess we'll start here. What made the Broncos the national champion all year? I mean, they were a one seed. This wasn't out of nowhere.

No, this wasn't. Honestly, I think that we maybe underrated how good this team was throughout the year because there was such a focus on the teams that had the big draft picks, the Boston colleges and the Michigan states and the teams. And really, Western was right there with them all year. They were the highest seed in the tournament. They're only the second team ever to win the NCHC regular season championship and national championship. And now the first ever of the last seven, there have been seven NCHC national champions. Western is the first to win both the regular season title, the postseason title, and the national championship. Also, these were their first, you know, these were some of the first, this was the first Frozen Four for them, first national championship game appearance. It's crazy, but how they won it is good goaltending,

Hampton Slikinsky, no question about that. They did a tandem goalie all year with Cameron Rowe, but they gave the Netsis Likensky in the postseason. They had a legit top line talent in Alex Bump, who actually didn't have any points in the national tournament, but still, even without points, I think impacted the game. They had tremendous depth, tremendous defense, tremendous size as well, and physicality.

They were a relentless forechecking team. They won the interior battles. They won the hard area battles. They won the forechecking battle, all of those things. And in the end, EU was certainly the more, skilled team, but they didn't manage to outwork Western. And this whole season, this is the team that has been complete, top to bottom. They do have more draft picks than they normally have had in years past, but they had a very senior team thinking guys like Tim Washy, Wyatt Schozy, all these

guys that had been there for a long time and really were dedicated to making this happen. And then I think they're just an incredibly well-coached team. Pat Fershweiler, their head coach, Jason Herder, their assistant coach who's now won three national championships in the NCAA, two with Minnesota Duluth, and now one with Western Michigan. And the crazy part is, Max, and I know you're in Michigan, this is only the beginning for this team. They are getting a new facility. They have a huge recruiting class coming out of the transfer portal this year, including

two draft picks. This is the start of something special at Western Michigan. They've long had one of the first. the best student sections in hockey already. So the passion is there and people got to see it on display, obviously, now with this tournament. And something like this, you know, it's obviously big for anyone to win a national championship. But a school like BU or BC or Denver even does it. And it's a continuation, right?

It's, you expect that when Western does it, it catches your eye and it can be a sea change moment, Scott. Yeah. And I think more impressive because, as Chris alluded to, Alex Bump wasn't the one doing it. It wasn't the big voice. At the other end of the ice, who were the goal scorers for BU? It was Shane Lachshantz. It was Cole Eiserman. It was the top dogs.

Who were the goal scores at the other end of the ice? Well, outside of Owen Michael's scoring two in both games, it was the bottom six guys. It was a 25-year-old defenseman. It was, you go down the list. It just came from four lines. I thought they were the only team in the tournament that could roll four lines up front. They relied on five, arguably six defensemen. and it just sort of came from everywhere

and they were first to all of the pucks, they were up and under sticks, they won all of the battles. They were bigger, heavy, stronger, faster than both Denver and BU. I thought they absolutely dominated Denver in the semi-final, a weight push and a valiant effort by Denver to push back,

but they were the better team and it didn't even feel like it was close in that game. So full credit to them, full credit to Pat Furschweiler. I mean, Wyatt Shingothi was barely a college player in his first three years at Western Michigan for them, was barely a college, was playing five, six, seven minutes a night for the majority of this season, and then plays 15, 16, 17 minutes in the final three games of their season scores a big goal. And that just seemed to be the story for this Western Michigan team all year.

Alex Bump was one of the top players in college hockey. They had one of the best deep pairings in college hockey and Univison and Sammy Sox-Soland. but it wasn't that that carried this team. Hampton was great, yes, but I didn't think Hampton won them either of those two games either. So full marks to them, they were just the better team on the ice.

Part of it was older veteran big, heavy group. I think that was a huge part of the success of their team. But top to bottom, they were well coached. They did it the right way. They were all pulling on the same rope, all those cliches you hear, but it actually felt like that with this team. It felt like a complete hockey team.

And in many cases in college hockey, teams are relying on four, five, six guys. That wasn't the case for this Western Michigan team. And I think that was the messaging all year from Pat Firstweiler to his group was it's literally, we are a team of 18 to 20 guys here. Like this is this is an actual hockey team. It's not just the top dogs. I mean, to Chris's point, 21 drafted players in the game and seven were Western

Michigan, which is a big deal in and of itself, they have seven drafted guys. But the top eight drafted players in the game were all BU. products. So full credit to them and just the way that they played and the team game that they played. Kind of a statement making path too, right? Like even in the Frozen Four, you knock off Denver and then BU to like, you know, blue bloods of the blue bloods. But even, you know, within their region, yes, they're the top seat in their region. But Minnesota State, I think I picked Minnesota State in our episode because they were the best defensive team in the country this year. And so to go through that and all the different kinds of challenges they did, really impressive.

I think that does speak to really good coaching, Chris, to your point. And that's something we can probably talk about with all four of these coaches that were at the Frozen Four, or at least a few of them. You're talking about Pat Furshweiler. You're talking about David Carl. You may be talking about Jay Pendolfo, at BU. There is some real potential NHL interest here. Yeah, I think there's no question about it. Obviously, David Carl is probably the hottest name in the coaching market right now.

You know, after a loss, especially one as painful as the one that that one was in double overtime. He wasn't going to give anything away in terms of his intentions. I think any team with an opening is going to at least reach out and have a conversation. But the difference is he doesn't have NHL assistant coaching experience or pro coaching experience at all. This has been his first job as a head coach. He's done the world juniors. He's done this. He's got the national championships, the world junior gold medals that he has.

But then you look and you look at Pat Firstweiler, who is now, was an assistant coach with the Detroit Red Wings under Jeff Lashill, who was the guy that really started to turn the tide at Western Michigan as a head coach before the Red Wings snapped him up. And then you've got, you know, Jay Pandolfo, who was an assistant coach at the Bruins, an NHL player, a really good NHL player. He's never missed the Frozen Four as a player or a coach. Never.

You know, I mean, that's a winner, you know, and he's won a Stanley Cup. So, you know, like, these are the things that happen. you know, when you have success at this level. The other thing that I think is going to be really interesting is how college hockey is shifting now because your job is a recruiter. You're basically a general manager on top of being a coach, which I think is going to be attractive at some, you know, on some level to teams. But really it's about what do you do with the team that you're able to put together. And I think the thing that we saw, you know, David Carl has had great teams over the years.

He's gotten a lot out of them. I think Pat Birchweiler, you can argue, has gotten more out of his. teams than anybody in the country just because of the development that has been there. Because not only are they getting draft picks, they've had a ton of college free agents come out of Western Michigan. That's actually predates Pat Fershweiler, but it's clear now they are developing guys to be NHL players. And I think, you know, Tim Washie, you've spent five years there. I think NHL teams should be calling him now, you know, to say, hey, we need a guy for our fourth line. We think that you can fit there. You know, I think that that's, he's one of those kinds of

players. So, you know, it's a fertile recruiting ground if you're an NHL team. One guy that wasn't in the Frozen 4, another former NHL assistant, Adam Nightingale, you know, these are the names that I think are going to crop up when we talk about new blood, guys that haven't been NHL coaches, head coaches before. And I'm really excited to see kind of how that goes. The other thing, though, is that how much are these guys going to be willing to leave? They can make more money in the NHL. They do have the aspirations. However, any of those guys, they can have their current job for the rest of their lives if they want it. They will, that they are made. So, you know, that's the other thing is stability, you know, and most of those guys are alums of their programs as well. Actually,

all of the guys that I mentioned are alums of their programs. So it's kind of amazing to see how things have changed there. First, while, first whaler has been instrumental in the massive complex that they're building in Kalamazoo too. Like it's going to be a four block significant, significant complex that they're building. And he's been a part of even the design and what it's going to look like and what their gym's going to look like and how it's going to operate. So he's got some pretty deep roots there. But in saying that, there was smoke even about all of the attention has gone to Carl. But there was smoke and chatter this week about Pat Furschweiler.

I had coffee with one executive on the Friday between the two games. It made me late for the award. ceremony that night. And the very first thing he mentioned to me was Keith Jones is here. And everybody's talking about Pat Fershweiler, his former linemate at Western Michigan, and that torts opening in Philadelphia. So whether or not he takes that job or they offer him that job, there's already some talk about Fershweiler, obviously Carl and then Pandalfa. I mean, three for three now as a head coach at BU. If he keeps it up, you think he'll enter that conversation. So, uh, and to your point about Tim Washy, I heard that Owen Michaels after a seven

points, even as a freshman, the way Owen Michaels played this year, the way he played this week in St. Louis, there is already interest in Owen Michaels as well as a college free agent. Now, he may go back and, and sort of take another run at it. Uh, he is only, it was only a sophomore this year. Although as, as with most of those Western Michigan kids, he was an older sophomore. Um, but there's, there's, there's, there's a lot of, a lot of things trending in right direction at Western Michigan in particular. Yeah. And one other thing, too, and the one thing I wonder about college coaches and their potential

in the NHL is, you know, the idea of building a culture, building a program. I think it is easier to do it at the college level when you have younger and more impressionable players and you're able to kind of, but I think that there is value in that. I think that's something that Jim Montgomery was attractive when he was a head coaching candidate coming out of college. I think that was part of the allure of, you know, the way that John Cooper interacts with players, you know, when he was coming from USHL to the AHL, you know, so there are a lot of these different kind of things that come there.

And I think if there's one thing you could say about all of those guys that we just mentioned, every single one of them, they have built a culture and an identity, and they stick to that and they keep they don't deviate from those kinds of players and so whether or not that will work at the pro level remains to be seen but i think each of those those coaches has developed some level of command of who they are as coaches and what they can do for players and i think that will resonate whether you know it's an nchel player or a college player i i think they all have that command we could probably have a similar conversation about adam nightingale at michigan state obviously he had been on the Red Wing staff at one point, ran the NTDP.

He's done really spectacular things with Michigan State, including producing this year's Hobie Baker winner, Isaac Howard. And to my surprise, Isaac Howard and Trey Augustine, their two best players this year, Trey Augustine the goalie, are going to be back next year. So I got to think Michigan State is in that inner circle of championship contenders going into the next season. You're not the only one who was surprised by Howard in particular going back.

Even the staff there were telling you. me over text last week that they thought he was done. They were telling him he was done. They were encouraging him to turn pro. So getting those two guys back, another year of Charlie, Charlie Stramel, potentially taking another step under Adam Nightingale, another player that Adam Nightingale has sort of rebuilt here, including Isaac Howard, who had a difficult freshman year at Minnesota,

Duluth before the transfer. There's a lot to like about that Michigan State group. Maxime Sturback's going to be back in a year older. They've got, they've got something going to. and Caden Lindstrom, obviously, is the big recruit, and Caden is a potential game changer. Obviously, hasn't played hockey in a year and a half, but is a fourth overall pick,

was taking morning skate with medicine hat just yesterday. So things are another program that has just really turned it around over the last few years, another program that renovated their facilities, which always helps in college hockey. You go into some of these ranks now, and it's going to be tough for CHL programs to compete with what the top college

programs have to offer. So yeah, Knightie's done a phenomenal job. And to Chris's point, that team maybe as much as Firstweiler's Broncos team, that Michigan State team has a crystal clear identity in terms of the types of players that they want and the guys that they bring in. So a very, very impressive job by Knighty and his staff there. And I think, frankly, both of his assistants could be head coaches in college hockey at some point here too. So no question about it. I mean, and, you know, just to kind of stay on the Isaac Howard point as well, you know, it wasn't just a surprise that he went back. I think for a lot of people, they were surprised that he was the winner of the Hobie thinker.

But let's just put it this way. You put Ryan Leonard, Z. Bouillon, Isaac Howard up against each other. Each of them has an incredibly strong case. I think if any one of them won, it would have been, you know, very, very deserving. But, you know, I think based on the way that things went, you know, the vote for the Hobie Committee happens after the regionals. And I thought, well, Zib Bouillon, who's playing, he averaged 27 minutes a game this year. He played 51 in the game. That's crazy.

51 and he was targeted like no other. And this is every single game, Zee Boeem takes a beating and smiles at it. It's insane. And so for me, I thought that was probably where it was heading because if you look at the defensemen over the years that have won the Hobie Baker, some of them don't have the same resume that Z. Bouillon had this year. Isaac Howard led the nation in points per game. He also led his team in scoring by 20 points, 21 points.

So that is a significant value to his team. Meanwhile, Ryan Leonard, 30 goal season. and 30 is usually a magic number. Some people, you know, so I think that this probably will never know because they don't, they don't make the vote public. This, I would bet, is one of the closest votes in the history of the Hobie Baker Award because you had three tremendous candidates. And kind of crazy to think all three of them were on the same team just a couple of years ago

at the World Juniors winning a gold medal together and all having a significant role in those games. All three of them scored in the gold medal game against Sweden in, in that goal. So it's just kind of amazing to see it come full circle with those three. Ike led that tournament in goals with seven and seven,

I believe. And two in that gold medal game. It's just kind of a remarkable, a remarkable run for that trio of players and only one of them will be back in school next year. And it's the guy

that could potentially become the first two-time Hobie Baker Award winner in the history of college hockey. Any final thoughts, Scott, on the tournament, any players who you wanted to kind of who really caught your eye

or you wanted to kind of shout out for what they did. No, I kind of hinted at it off the top. I thought Owen Michaels was the best player on the ice in both of the games that he played in. Just a worker dog on a bone plays in the guts of the ice around the puck all night. It seemed like he had a ton of looks. He impressed me. I frankly, it was one of those that sort of old meme of I wasn't familiar with your game. Like I've watched that team a fair amount this year, but Michaels was never a focus for me. He was never the guy that I was keying in on. And so to see him and see him play as well as he did and talk to a couple of people

about him and both of the people that I spoke to about him this week were equally as impressed. It seems like he's got a lot of momentum. And again, I mentioned it. But he had a seven point freshman year. And then he had 30, I think 36 or 37 this year, something like that. So a huge jump. I thought Cole Hudson was dynamic in the semi-final. I didn't think he was at his best in the final,

but Cole Hudson, heck of a year, national rookie of the year, tied his older brother, Lane, obviously, as a freshman, exact same number of games played, exact same number of points. I think Cole kind of flew, despite being a second round pick,

kind of flew under the radar in terms of just the level of talent that we were talking about, was always compared to Lane, and Lane was always viewed as this singular, singular player. Cole is a special talent. Like, Cole is a special, special offensive player.

He had some big block shots. He's a gamer. He's physical, more physical than Lane was. So just very impressed, top to bottom by Cole Hudson this season. He had multi-point games in three of the four. He had points in all four of the tournament games and multi-point games in three of the four tournament games. He had a multi-point game in the gold medal game at the World Juniors and the win over Finland.

Just a big, sort of big game player this year all year. So very, very impressed by Cole Hudson. in his season and excited to see what he does next year as a sophomore. I'm in agreement with both those players. I think another guy that made the all-tournament team was Univisonin, who, you know, he's drafted by the Pittsburgh Penguins. It was a late draft pick. I loved him in Dubuque.

I thought he was one of the guys that was kind of on my sleeper list. You know, he averaged, you know, 19 or so minute or, you know, around 19 minutes a game this season. And in that two overtime game, he played 26, and then he played 21 yesterday, saved the goal, off the goal line, had an assist. He had points in three of the four regional games, all assists. Just a guy that plays a real solid game. You're not going to notice him very often, but he's going to make plays. He's going to do things that help you win hockey games. So I did like him quite a bit. You know, we mentioned Tim Washie as well. Big, fast, you know, physical, does a lot of the things well. that you need to have for a grinded out kind of player. And then, you know, I just can't say enough about what we saw from Zeeb Bouillon in the semifinal. You know, the puck ended up on his stick in the decisive goal and he wasn't able to get

the clear. And I think that might be the thing that sticks in his craw. But I'll remember a 51 minute game, a guy that got his legs taken out twice in the game, a guy who had really a lot of challenge, like looked like he probably was a little banged up from some of the initial contact that he took. You look at how BC played him. You look at how all the other teams played him in the regionals. You look at how Western played him in the NCHC championship game and then in that

semifinal. He is one of the greatest college hockey defensemen I've been able to see. So I'm telling you right now, this is a guy that is going to make a difference in the NHL. He's an outstanding prospect. A disappointing end to an otherwise brilliant. two seasons, one of the best two season runs we've ever seen from a defenseman in college hockey. He had Denver's best chance of that overtime, too, and we would be talking about Western Michigan

if he buries that dash to the slot. So just unbelievable. We'd have still talked about him a little bit, but not as much as we did. All right. That's going to do it for us. Thanks for listening to this episode of the FEDic hockey show. Please leave us a rating and review if you're enjoying the show. We would especially appreciate five-star rating. Sean, Sean and Frankie have you covered on Wednesday. We'll talk to you soon.