The Athletic Hockey Show - Is Jim Rutherford the most effective executive ever, in the history of the NHL trade deadline?

Episode Date: March 6, 2024

Sean Gentille and Down Goes Brown praise Jim Rutherford for taking the trade deadline to the next level and lament the lack of impact forwards available as the deadline approaches.Frankie Corrado shares his own personal trade deadline story, we break down the Devils firing of Lindy Ruff and hiring of Travis Green, Frankie presents his opinion on the Martin Pospisil hit against Vince Dunn and if he thinks there are still races in the conferences, or do we already have our 16 playoff teams?Plus, the boys marvel at Connor McDavid and Cale Makar, and look back on the 20th anniversary of Todd Bertuzzi attacking Steve Moore and the NHL's most penalized game ever between Philadelphia and Ottawa, which may have been the beginning of the end of fighting in the NHL. Take our listener survey here: http://theathletic.com/survey24 Get a 1-year subscription to The Athletic for $2 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/hockeyshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Hockey Show. Good morning in happy trade deadline week to all of you. I think that's how we have to open shows and conversations for the next few days. I'm Sean Gentile. I'm here with Sean McAdoo. This is The Athletic Hockey Show, two Shons in a Frank edition. Frankie Carrotto will be joining us shortly, but as we usually do on all four of these. Me and Sean are going to get things started.

But before we do that, quick, quick business note, we know you guys listen to us. We want to hear from you. We're asking you, our listeners, our friends, to fill out a quick survey about you in your podcast habits by going to the athletic.com slash survey 24. That's theathletic.com slash survey 24. Three lucky entries will win a $100 Amazon gift card as well. I'm not sure if hosts are eligible. for this promotion, but I'm going to try to find out.

So you're a long-time listener or a new one. We want your feedback. It can be good. It can be bad. We just want to hear back from you and get your thoughts on the show. So go to theathletic.com slash survey 24. Again, that is theathletic.com slash s-U-R-V-E-Y-2-4. The link is also in the app description.

If me saying that a half dozen times wasn't enough for you. Thanks a lot. Okay. Sean Hey buddy Yes Sean How are you doing How are we doing on the name thing

I'm fine Do you get any feedback Any suggestions Yeah I have a list somewhere I defaulted to two Shons and a Frank I think I might use that one already Because that one just makes me laugh For some reason

But I have I've been keeping track I have like an open How do you Here's a question I've never asked you How do you write Do you write Do you keep it to Google Dye

Do you keep like a Word doc? Do you file? Do you like raw dog it and go straight in the CMS? Like how do you keep track of all of all this? No, that's okay. That's crazy stuff. I see that every now and then like someone in the Slack will be like, hey, the WordPress just crashed and I lost like a 2000 word story.

And I'm like, you're crazy. Wow, must suck to be. That's stupid, huh? Yeah, I don't. I don't. I would do that post game. I'm a work guy. I would do that.

I would go directly into the CMS, like, when I was going to games more and in filing shit immediately afterwards. And it happened. I lost everything enough to wean me off of that. But I still, I'm like a psychopath. I go between Google Docs and then I have, like, notepad docs. Like, I'm, like, copying and pacing and stuff. It's really, it's really inefficient. I've got, like, I've got Word.

And my kids are like, what are you doing? has like a program on their computer anymore like going to google to go into whatever but no i got that and i am constantly i i'm constantly backing up my stories that i'm in progress on because if yeah i'm worried that the laptop's going to blow up and i'm going to lose work totally but i don't have like i'm too old to like put it on the cloud or whatever so it's a draft email with attachments i love that i constantly adding to so that adding like like adding new like deleting the load attachments and adding a new one. Yeah.

Once the story runs, then the attachment is gone. Oh, buddy, that's, that's awesome. Okay, that's, I think you win. Yeah. Somebody suggested game, game miss shonduct. I was thinking for, for, for, for Frank, like maybe instead of like pros and cons, we go pro and shons. Like, does that, you know, because he, is that you?

That, that, and, yeah, yeah. And then, and then the other one was, um, yeah, just for the through us. Because, I mean, I think you and I both, we both spell her name properly, but that leads to some mispronunciations. Franken's. What exactly are we looking at here?

What do you mean? I mean, is it the, is it the Frank or the Beans? I saw that one somewhere. I wasn't sure if you suggested. I think I might have seen the one on the Discord or something. That's been, that's been, so I don't know.

I feel like we're still. I feel like we're circling right around it, but we're not, we're not quite there. We're almost there. What's important is we need you guys to keep sending this stuff in because it gives us something easy, easy to talk about and easy to focus on in the first. They got to send in names. They got to fill out surveys. Like, this is again, that's the athletic. Theathletic.com slash survey 24.

But it is. It's a big, look, man, we're, we'll say 48 hours. probably about 48 hours when people start listening to this away from the deadline. Stuff's starting to heat up. We are learning things day by day, and we are going to default to this as like the standard first segment, which is something we've learned in the last week. But you have a big one. I think a lot of people learned it, and a lot of people were surprised to have learned it a couple days ago because it's really funny.

I learned that I have a new favorite NHLGM. and my new favorite NHL GM is Jim Rutherford, which is maybe a little bit weird because he's not a GM. Just as a reminder, I feel like a lot of people have forgotten that he's not the GM in Vancouver, but he is. Continued Patrick Alvin erasure. Yeah, yeah. Patrick Alvin is just like sitting there in the background frantically waving his arms trying to get us to remember that he's there. No, this is the Jim Rutherford show because we got two phenomenal Jim Rutherford stories.

since the last time that we did this show, the first was the Elias Patterson extension, which, okay, great, team-friendly deal probably. Nice work. Who cares? The fun part of that is we find out around the same time that they're talking to the Carolina Hurricanes about a monster blockbuster trade. And apparently we're far enough along that there were, you know, there were names on the board. as far as what this would take. I have just decided to believe that this was all a bluff by Jim Rutherford to get Elias Pedersen back to the table.

I have no evidence of that. I have no inside information. But I've just decided it's more fun in my head canon to say that Jim Rutherford engaged an NHL team in blockbuster trade talks for no reason other than that he could go back, leak it out, have it get out there and get Elias Pedersen to, to get serious, which on its own would be great. But now we are also hearing that the Canucks are in the mix for Jake Gunsell. And you might say, well, how is that possible?

They don't have the cap room. They don't have the assets because they already went out and got Eliza Lindholm a couple weeks ago. Well, guess what? Apparently, of course, it was CJ, right? Who originally tweeted this out. they have engaged the Boston Bruins in trade talk about Elias Lindhol the guy they just acquired a few weeks ago as their big midseason move. They are now talking to Boston about flipping him to then create the room

that would allow them to go out and get Jake Gunsel. I love this. Dude, this is video game stuff. This is something you do in like season mode of NHL, whatever we're up to. out where you trade for a guy, use them in three games, go I don't like them, and then just flip them somewhere else. I was in the same boat as you regarding the initial report on Patterson and the hurricanes. I was like, okay, this is like great scare tactic, effective scare tactic.

Who knows how far he took it. The bit from CJ about potentially flipping Lindelm to the Brewing, makes me think he was serious about Pedersen in the case. Maybe. Yeah. Because then you would have, because it would have been easy for him to say, all right, we're flipping.

Now is Elias Lindelmaeus Pedersen? No. But it's a lot easier to threaten to flip your superstar center when you have a pretty good guy who's, who's kind of in the chamber and ready to step in. Maybe just not like guys named Elias? Like is that maybe? He already traded,

he traded Elias Lindholm once. Yeah. That's the funny part. It's the opposite of what we see from Rutherford, where it's like he goes out and gets guys who he's gotten before. He went and traded for Lindelm after trading him to Calgary in the first place in the Noah Hanifent area. Do you think Jim Rutherford knew it was the same guy?

Is it possible that he went out and was like, I mean, remember, this guy runs a team that has two Elias Patterson. So, I mean, there's there's lots of duplicate names out there, you know, the, the Sebastian Aho's and all of this. Like maybe he just thought he was getting a different guy. And then he walked in the door and he was like, oh, right, I thought maybe I knew you from somewhere. And now we went right to work on trading him. That theory makes as much sense as anything because we like I can't remember who was the last star player to get traded twice in a year. Was it Thomas Vanek?

And we had like not counting three-way deals where, you know, Thomas Fanick was twice in a year, right? Yeah, that was the, I, people, there was a two-year period there where I think it would be fair to call him a star. Yeah. I feel like he's probably on like an Elias Lindholm level. Yeah, he's quite like, you know, not a superstar, not a franchise guy, but, you know, legitimate good player. Because, I mean, we see guys get traded multiple times because they're fourth liners and who cares.

but um i love like i feel like there's this thing in the n hl where you know like in life we have the concept of like old man strength that there's just like a certain age you get to where you look at a guy in your life from it hasn't yeah it hasn't said i mean there's also dad strength and that that that one missed me too but um but you know you've got the concept i feel like with gms there's just old man strength where they just i don't know if they don't care i don't know And I'm not saying it makes them great GMs, but, you know, Jim Rutherford, Lou Lamarillo has been in DJAF mode for a while now. Like I remember Cliff Fletcher with the Leafs, good old Ron Carran with the Blues,

who was probably like 35, but he looked 80. And, you know, these guys are always the most fun. It's the young guys who come in with their 14 assistants and nine analytics guys, and they got to rent like a ballroom just to have a meeting to talk about this one trade for a third liner that's that they got to make. Oh, no. It's hard. It's hard to make trades, dude.

It's hard to make. It's so hard. It's so difficult. How can I possibly trade this third liner for a fourth round draft pick? That's so complicated in a cap world where we have the simplest. Meanwhile, the NBA is just like LeBron gets traded. Who cares?

Right. Who cares? I don't remember what Jim Rutherford was like 25 years ago. So I don't recall how. how he was doing his job in 1999. So I guess we'll preface it with that. I mean, as long as I can remember paying attention to him,

like I, because God knows I've, he was in Pittsburgh for, for long enough. Like, he was, he was always, always,

always, quick to, um, fix a perceived mistake. And he had no problems about trading guys who, who he'd acquired like relatively recently. That, would be taken up to the next level with the Lindelm thing.

And also, we don't know that it's a mistake. But he's just like, yeah, fine, whatever. You're a pending UFA. like you're going to have to figure this out at some point anyways. Like, not my problem. This leads me into our next little bit here because we're talking about Jake Gensel. We're talking about Jim Rutherford getting in on Jake Gansel,

which should surprise nobody, aside from the fact is Jim Rutherford. Jim Rutherford loves Jake Gensel, loves him, loves him, you know, as much as you would expect a guy who loves, you know, a first-line winger who won him a Stanley Cup, and then a little bit more. He's always been super, super complimentary and, and a huge fan of Gensel as a player. That's something to consider because Rutherford is one of the few dudes who's like, yeah, I like that guy.

I'm going to go, I'm going to go out and get him. I'm familiar with him. Like, who cares? Whatever the cost is, doesn't care about draft picks, I mean, or prospects or whatever else,

like go out and get the dude. So we should, I want to preface what we're about to say with that. The fact that Jim Rutherford is in on Jake Gensel might be enough to drive up the price on Jake Gensel and the rest of the wingers on the market to a point that we expect, right? Because you're bidding against, crazy old man strength.

Totally. Got to get serious. But I think based on last night on the Anthony Manta trade, he goes to Vegas for a second and a fourth and 50% retained salary. I think people may have overestimated what the returns on all these guys are going to be. And I think that's true in a lot of years. But the forward market specifically and the rental winger market specifically. There are too many of these dudes.

Too many wingers. The forward market is 95% wingers. And that speaks to some extent to the value of center over wing, I'm sure. But it also just feels like kind of a fluky thing this year, which that was something where, I mean, yesterday I was looking at the list of guys. And I was talking about the Bruins and we're like, you know, the Bruins need a center, but there's just, there's nobody they missed out on the,

the guys who had already gone. Apparently not. Apparently they didn't miss out on Elizlyn home afterwards, necessarily. They may get a second, second crack at them, but yeah, it's all wingers.

And if you need one, great, you're in, you're in good shape. Maybe one of those years where, maybe the strategy is just unplug your phone until about noon on Friday and then start making some calls and see who's, who's available real cheap because,

you know, you can get like a max patch ready for probably not all that much if you miss out on your first 10 choices. Right. Or you just skip your first couple choices and you say, you want a third for, like, what is Jordan Emberley going to get? What is, what's Jason Zucker going to get? He's a year removed from a 27 goal season. He's a really good five on five player. It hasn't worked in Arizona, but a lot of stuff hasn't worked in Arizona. And so, like, you could, you could conceivably see someone be like, what am I,

am I going to meet Pittsburgh's asking price, which is whatever, one or two prospects in a first round pick? Or am I just going to move on to the next tier of guy, the Anthony Mantha tier of player, where you can get, that you can get for a second and a fourth in $2.75 million in cab space or whatever it is. Yeah. I don't, I don't know that I would wait that long either, honestly. you know, like at some point, do I want Jake Gunsell? Do I want, you know, if I, if I'm looking at my roster and wing is the weakness, do I want the best player out there? Or do I want to go and get three guys that I could drop in to my lineup and probably pay less

than I'm paying for the top tier? Now there's an argument to be made that, hey, in hockey, elite talent is what wins. And so you go out and you pay the price to get the number one guy. don't get a bunch of scraps. But yeah, I mean, like at some point, you know, are you, I don't even know if it's a negotiation. It might be a voicemail. You call up Steve Steyos in Ottawa and you go, if you retain 50%, I will take Dominic Kubelik off your hands for a sixth round pick. Call me back if your answer is yes.

And that's it. That's the whole negotiation. Boom. You've got a guy who's produced on a power play over the last few years. And you can squint and say like, yeah, this, this dude makes sense for us in one way or another. You get three of those guys and you put them in. And maybe by the end of the year, one guy's clicking, one guy's okay, and one guy isn't. And so that guy sits in the press box. And I don't know. But okay. So now is the part where, and this is a thing that I feels like only

relatively recently became a thing in the NHL. But people are going, whoa, wait a second. And you're bringing all these guys in. You're going to disrupt your precious chemistry. All the, the chemistry that You built up. You can't bring guys in. You certainly can't move guys out and all of this stuff. Again, that's where we got good old Jim Rutherford, my favorite GM,

who isn't even a GM. He does, he clearly does, he has got, like if there was one team, the Vancouver Canucks all year, overachieving, we,

you know, we won't litigate the whole regression thing and all this. Don't mess with anything. But it's been, like if there was a, if there was a single team that you could treat as a house of cards and say, look, man,

We don't know what's happening here, but don't mess with it. And Jim Rutherford's just like, no, you know what? I'm going to absolutely, I will trade our best player. I will trade the guy. I will make multiple blockbusters. I don't care. God bless him. I wish we had 31 other guys like that running the teams.

And then we would have a fun trade deadline with nobody crying about how complicated it all this. We are lucky to still be living in the time of Jim Rutherford, NHL, you know, player personnel. string puller A and we're lucky that he put together a good hockey team because none of this stuff matters if the Canucks stink like a lot of good Jim Rutherford does us if he's the president of hockey ops for you know the 10th place team in the Western conference he's not they're good and that's and that's the thing that we I think all have to be thankful for here thank you thank you thank you for your service I believe Frankie was acquired by

Jim Rutherford at one point. I think, I think, I love a segue. Wow. It's because I'm a pro. He's ready to go. Yeah. We're going to talk to Frank here in a second.

We're going to hit a break and then we'll be back. Frankie's here. I was correct. Jim Rutherford did acquire a defenseman by the name of Frank Carrado back, back in Pittsburgh. I was not wrong. I did not know how the trade went down.

Dude, you were where? when you found out. I was at the dentist. I had booked a 2 p.m. dentist appointment on the day of the trade deadline. I was convinced I wasn't going to get traded at that point because I had cleared waivers probably a month before that. And I was playing for the Marleys. I was playing for Sheldon Keith, actually. And things were going great. And I kind of wrapped my head around this fact that I'm just going to be a UFA next year. They're obviously not going to qualify me. And I'll have a great little stint here with the Marleys. maybe a little playoffs and see what happens from there. So I just got out of the dentist chair and I had asked the, like the dentist or the dental hygienist, can you please put on TSN so I can watch, you know, Trade Center. And, you know, it's like 258, 259. I get out of the chair.

I'm like paying, doing my thing. And all of a sudden my phone lights up. And it was actually a buddy mine, Peter Hollen, who texts me first. And he goes, oh, that's pretty cool. You get to meet Sid. and I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, why would I get to meet Sid? And then sure enough, it's like a couple more texts come in and I said to myself, did I like, did I just get traded to Pittsburgh?

And then I go on Twitter and I believe it was Pierre LeBron actually who had the tweet that I got traded to Pittsburgh. So I guess they like Pittsburgh couldn't call me until the trade went through the registry. So they like they couldn't call me for a couple hours. I didn't get a call from Pittsburgh until well into the night. And then Lou Lamarillo finally called me like, I don't know, a little while later to let me know that it actually happened. But yeah, that's how I found out. I was paying at the dentist and I was off to Pittsburgh and Wilkesbury and all that fun stuff. So you were a Lou Lamarillo, Jim Rutherford for trade.

Wow. Yeah, I wonder what that conversation is like, hey, we got this guy. You want him? Yeah, we can throw them in. All right, sure. I just looked up. I just looked up the entire deal, actually. It was the Leafs got Eric Farr, Steve Alexi, a fourth rounder, and the Penguins acquired, Frank Carrado.

I think there was a little salary dump. Like, there's no way I'm worth. There's no way I'm worth that much. No way. I think they were trying to get rid of Farris salary. If I remember, if I remember back then. So this was just like a normal dentist appointment? Like you were, you just like scheduled a cleaning or whatever.

Yeah. That's great. You scheduled an hour before the trade deadline. That's how little I cared about the trade deadline at that point. Wow. I got to get this cleaning done. And like, who knows what kind of cesspool my mouth was. So I must have really had to get this cleaning done.

That's, that's awesome. All right. So there is other stuff happening besides trade stuff. That is not a professional segue. I had a really good one at the start of the first segment. Now I'm just falling back to fumbling all over myself. Lindy Roth fired. I don't know.

I don't want to say the timing was odd because it felt like it was going to happen at some point, especially over the last month is increasingly obvious that something was going to happen. But for it to go down in early March and sort of all the circumstances, that surrounded it. Like, this is, this is weird, right?

This is, this is oddly time. I don't know, Frank, is there something you'd seen from them or, or, or,

or vibes that you, that you, that you picked up there in, in, in Jersey that maybe makes it, you know, a little,

yeah, because they were, they'd been terrible. Like, they'd been awful. I don't want to make it like it. It was undeserved.

No, I'm just surprised that they pulled the shoot, honestly. I, I think in any other circumstance, where, hey,

they have their goalie, they have their goalie, have a decor that they feel like is adequate and the team performed that way, it would be a no-brainer. Like, we wouldn't even be talking about it. We're like, hey, yeah, I mean, that makes sense. But with the way the personnel had been constructed in Jersey this year, like they really put those, I feel like they really put those two goalies in a tough spot

for their own development, like to play behind a decor that doesn't have, you know, essentially three guys that were big parts of the team last year. And Hamilton, who got hurt, Severson, who was traded. and you don't, you know, re-sign Ryan Graves, that's fine. Like, those are kind of long-term plays as far as Severson and Graves go. You want Hamilton there. But it doesn't help you right now. And I think they really pass the torch to a lot of young defensemen there

and some guys that are, you know, depth guys, like a guy like Colin Miller or, you know, the kid, Kevin Ball, who's, you know, he's trying to find his way. And then you have Nemitz and Luke Hughes. It's like, for a team with bigger aspirations, it's a lot of, lot of young guys in critical positions that you're really trusting. And, you know, so with the way the season had gone, you think, okay, maybe there's a chance Lindy gets fired, but is that really fair? No, it's not.

Like, what is he supposed to do with that? So that's what leads me to believe that if he got fired, maybe there's something that we're not seeing from the outside. Because I would have thought, you know, you're going to regroup next year. You're going to get a goalie. you're going to bolster your defense corps, and you're going to give Lindy another crack at it and say, listen, we've kind of eliminated the excuses now. Like, here it is.

Like, you got to show us something. But they chose to pull the trigger before that even happens. So that's why I wonder, okay, what were the conversations regarding some of the young players? You know, what were some of the conversations regarding maybe the systems the team wants to play with? And that's the kind of stuff that we don't know. but that would be maybe the kind of stuff that leads you to believe, okay, maybe it wasn't going anywhere. Like maybe that was just an internal thing. But as far as what meets the surface and what we get to see, I think, you know, it doesn't make a lot of sense because he just, he has what he has.

And I don't know how much better that team could play with the personnel that they had in those positions. What was the comment that Tom Fitzgerald had where he said something like, you know, we're going to have some lineup changes that we maybe should. should have had a while ago where maybe he wasn't thrilled with some of the player usage. Travis Green is a, he makes perfect sense. He's a veteran guy to come in, NHL experience already on, you know, sure, you know, that makes sense. But when you have a situation like this where you need to change things and the guy who comes in is, was already there.

So how do you come in and give that message of, okay, guys, we're changing everything. And it's like, dude, you wasn't half of this stuff still your job a little while ago? See, I don't, yeah, I get what you're saying. Anytime an internal candidate comes in, you're like, hey, man, you're, you're a part of this. Like, why, why do you get the opportunity? But I think sometimes, like, the head coach, he's the head coach for a reason, because, you know, he gets final say on a lot of the things. And if you're an assistant, like, I've seen it a lot where the assistant coach doesn't necessarily agree with what's happening, but what's he supposed to do. Like, you know, like that's, in a sense, that's your boss.

So, you know, the buck stops with him. He gets the final say on a lot of. of things. You'll have your input. You'll get your say. But that's kind of, you know, that's maybe even goes to the stuff behind the scenes that we don't even know, right? Like, yeah, so I don't know. It's interesting. I think the world of Travis Green. I was going to say you've had, you've had Travis Green experience. Yeah. Yeah. I think he's, I think he's a great coach in that situation. You know why? He really does a great job. This is his strength. He does a great job of getting to know each player.

and what makes them tick. And it's not a one-size-fits-all approach with him. Like, I think he puts a lot of effort in understanding how to push each player's buttons and extract the most out of them. And think about that group that he has now in Jersey. A little bit of a mishmash, but there's some young players that really are going to need that connection from a head coach, you know, to kind of keep going in the right direction here. So I think, you know, the interim tag is on Travis Green.

I wouldn't be surprised if it turns into a full-time position for him. But they'll need help. Let's be honest, you can connect with players as much as you want. You can be a great communicator, all that kind of stuff. If you can't get a save, you know, the best coaches in the league will get exposed. And, you know, we've seen that with, you know, Edmonton this year. We've seen it with Carolina at times this year where they couldn't get a save. Like Rod Brindamore could be the first $10 million a year head coach.

You know what I mean? But, like, he can't get a save. How does his team look? So that's, you know, that's, that's, that's the priority there. But I, I think Travis is a, is a great coach for the, the players that they have in the situation that they're in. Well, because he immediately put his stamp on something, right? We're talking about lineup decisions.

The big one is that he bench, she's, be benched Nemich, right? Like, immediately, that was his first, that was his first big decision was, was sitting him down, which I would imagine when you're talking about Tom Pist Jero, and there's some lineup stuff that maybe should have been done before. like that's that's no that's no minor thing taking one of your young stud you know foundational pieces moving forward and being like you i think you need it i think you need to watch for a for a couple games and come back that's no small thing and honestly like especially under the circumstances right like normally this when you see a team underachieving falling out of the playoffs you go we're gonna we're gonna move the young players up the lineup and we're gonna say okay you know that season's kind of teetering we're gonna put it and give it to you and instead it's, he moves him right out.

You know what happens sometimes, I think, with young players, and I feel like I experience this a little bit too. If you play in a bad situation, it can really, it can really scar you to the point where not that you lose your confidence, but you've seen so much go wrong. And now you're, you almost play with that kind of fear as far as what can happen, you know, and a lot of the times it's like, oh man, negative consequences. If I do this, hey, I've done this on. the ice before. It didn't go well and I got exposed and I had a minus three game and man,

this is really stressful. We're a team that's supposed to be winning and we're losing like all these kinds of things can really add up and stack up in your head. And you know, like you guys have seen this too where a young player makes his NHL debut looks like a rock star. Awesome. And and we see that kind of roll, you know, roll along for a little bit with some guys. You know why? They're so naive. They never experienced all that trauma and it's just like they're just playing and the longer you can keep that going and play with that that kind of mindset obviously it's better for the players so there is something to be said to to limiting that kind of negativity and that negative highlight reel for a young player and player's going to have a really good career like he he is he's a really good player

he doesn't need to get exposed to a team that's struggling defensively and putting him in positions where maybe he's not going to succeed. So there's no, I mean, listen, there's not going to be a right or a wrong answer with all this stuff. It's more of a feel type thing. But I think that's where, I think that's where Greenie does a really good job. Like, he's got a good feel for players and how they're thinking and how they're operating. And that's going to be a strength of his going forward with the Devils. It's unreal that that's where we are with the Devils this season. Given where we started with them back in October, people are like, you know,

know they're going to take a step forward you know there people out there that are picking them as like a dark horse cup whatever and now we're like no they're in salvage mode they need to make sure they need to make sure that nothing bad happens to simon nemich or or luke hues or whatever that's crazy i know and if i was them i i i'm trying to ask for everything for to foley right now like wouldn't you guys be trying to get a big haul for this guy 100% i that was that was a bizarre press It was a bizarre presser last year or last night or yesterday. I thought this is just, I mean, I get it. Fitzgerald's a pretty honest dude.

But for him to be like, no, we're still trying to extend him. That's wild. You can just like, I, listen, I guess you can try and extend him because you think you're going to turn things around next year. I think that's very valid. You can also trade him and try and sign him in the summer. I don't know. Like, just because he gets traded to Edmonton, he's not going to be able to extend

in Edmonton at the money that he wants. So you still have a chance. in the offseason. What do you think of that as a concept overall? Because it's something we hear a lot around this time of year. We're hearing about Jake Gensel and in a lot of respects where it's like, yeah, trade a guy, get the hall and then sign them whenever July rolls around. Like I feel like that's something that we hear about like, oh, yeah, maybe you could do that.

And then it doesn't actually come to pass. Every year, it gets, and especially the fan base that's trading the guy away is always like, he's going to come back, he's going to come back. And it's happened like three times. Keith Kachuk did it one year. It almost never happens. But I'm surprised it doesn't. Like I if I'm Tom Fitzgerald, I'm talking to Tyler's fully going like, oh yeah, here's an extension.

You know, boy, this, we really feel like we've got the parameters of a deal here. I don't know if I can do it until the summer wink, wink, like, you know. And then you put this in a drawer and like you say, it's not going anywhere. Yeah. If you trade him to some place like Edmonton where you know he's not going to sign. Now, if you trade them someplace that's got room, at that point it's out of your hands because we so often see these guys get traded and then immediately they get the big extension wherever they just landed. I think the challenge with that too is going to be that player spent some time in your organization and he got a firsthand look at what's going on behind the curtain. And if he hears circus music playing, like he's not going to resign with you.

He's like, why would I go back to the circus music when I just saw what a well-oiled machine is like? So there is a little bit to be said for that. But I think the guys that we see in these situations, like I'm pretty sure I played with Roman Polack when he got traded to San Jose and then he re-signed in the offseason with Toronto. And then there was another player I played with that had that happen. I want to say it was maybe Daniel Winnick, who also got traded and he did a second stint back in Toronto.

I don't know if those years were back to back. Anyways, he did a second stint. And then the one that just happened was probably one of the most brilliant, you know, acquisition trade sequences that I can remember in the last little while. And that was with Montreal where they bring in Sean Monaghan and a first round pick. Give him an opportunity to play to get healthy. He does outstanding. They give him another one year deal, you know, like what is it? 1.95.

They give him a chance to play. He does really well. Now he's on the move to Winnipeg. He's playing great there. He's probably priced himself out of, you can't even say that he's priced himself out of Montreal. Like who, like they should have room next year.

Anyways, that's, you know, Monaghan goes, UFA, you bring in a pick, you send him out the door, you bring in another first round pick. I guess it's not the same situation.

But I mean, what a sequence that is for, for a guy. He just wanted an opportunity to play and be healthy. And the team really maximize that situation. You mentioned whenever, you know, guys get traded out and they hear the circus music on the way out, right? Like, is that part, because I've always tried to figure this out, is that part of what plays a role? And when we see so many guys get moved and then sign extensions, like, it's the other side of the coin where they sign extensions quickly.

I know like Bo Horvath comes in mind. He gets sent to the island and then before you know it, he's signed for, you know, 25 years and a billion dollars. Why do we see that so often? Like, what is the psychology that's at play there? And maybe it's just so much money that I can't, that I can't conceive of it. But I would be like, uh-uh. I'm not, I'm not signing for eight years, my last big deal in a place that I've been for

for 15 minutes. It just seems crazy to me. Well, you know why. So hockey players hate uncertainty, right? We have the same routine all the time. We just want to know like where everything's going to be, what it's going to be, and there's certain comfort level with that. And you get traded somewhere and it's a new situation and it doesn't go well. You could cost yourself a lot of money. And if someone's going to throw a bag at you and say, listen, we want to lock you up for eight years and we're going to give you fair market value to maybe even a little bit above market value, I mean, that's always going to be a attached to you. So if you get traded somewhere else and, you know, maybe there's, there's a situation that pops up where the team thinks they can upgrade or they got to dump your salary, guess what? You're still getting paid that money. And, you know, where you are in year one, doesn't necessarily mean that's where you're going to be in year five of that deal, but you'll still be getting paid and you'll still have guaranteed money and you'll still live with that certainty.

So, I mean, like, look at Jonathan Hubertoe. Like the guy barely stepped foot in Calgary, but he was getting $10.5 million, you'd be crazy. Like, you would just be crazy to turn down that kind of money, regardless of what you think about the city, the team, whatever. You know, you'll make your way at some point. But it's just way too enticing to have that money guaranteed and attached to you than to live with that uncertainty of I'm going to play hard. And I'm always going to play hard for sure.

and I'm going to try and play well so I can get that exact same deal four months later somewhere else. Let me take the money and the destination can work itself out somewhere along the way. I think you could be pretty happy in a city that you don't love if you're still making between $8 and $10 million. It's that simple. This is just me overcomplicating it. You can be like, yeah, I'll figure out where I want to buy a house. I'll figure out the school district question for my kids or whatever. Like with with a gigantic with like you know the bank bag in hand like I mean at least every other

Friday you're going to be happy like you will have a smile on your face every other Friday. Yeah. Because you talk about like you know you might get more than fair value. I've written about this. This is the situation where we see teams give out from their perspective the worst contracts because from a leverage perspective you've just traded for a guy. You gave up a first round pick. You gave up a prospect.

You gave this. You've had the press conference. You've brought the guy out. Hey, look how great he is. Hey, everybody. The fans are happy. The media's happy. Everyone's patting you on the back.

And then his agent, what are you going to do now? You're going to say to the agent, we're not really sold on him. No way. And, you know, the agents sitting there going, hey, he just gave up all this stuff. Surely you don't want to let him walk. Look at the worst contracts in the lead, right? Jonathan Huberto, you mentioned. Seth Jones for a while.

Another guy got that contract right after they trade for him. Jeff Skinner for a while. He's been better lately in Buffalo, but he was another guy. They trade for him. They give him the big contract. And then they go, oh, wait, this was a disaster. It happens over and over and over again. Teams give out their worst contracts to guys they just acquired because you've got to sign them.

Imagine if the flames had traded Matthew Kachuk. They get Uyghur and Huberto. Everyone's going, great job by them. And then they let those guys walk after a year. Can't happen. So instead, you know what I think? the next thing you know, you're the GM in Toronto. Yeah, no kidding.

You know what else I think is at play there? If, you know, you trade for a guy and you give up all these assets and then, you know, they walk or whatever. But you have a book on these guys. Like you have a book where you've been, you've had pro scouts watching these guys for years now. So maybe you've wanted to acquire this guy for three years, but you haven't been able to do it. But now, now you do it. Now you got the player. He's in your organization.

So you must be pretty sold that, you know, you've been working at this for so long that he fits in your organization and it's going to work. Like if a deal came together in three days, yeah, I don't think you're signing him to an extension. But if this is a guy that you've had circled in your, you know, in your boardroom on the whiteboard for years trying to acquire him, I guess you look at it and you say, all right, we feel pretty comfortable extending this guy because we've been on the hunt for him. we just haven't been able to get them for the last few seasons. I know Burke always used to talk about how there's more mistakes made on July 1st than any other day on the calendar of men. I don't know.

I think you could trade deadline day is closing, I think, on the number one spot. It's fascinating. Yeah, I mean, they're both different in the sense that the trade deadline feels like you kind of just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. Like there's really, there shouldn't be any excuses for, free agent frenzy. I don't understand how you're making mistakes with that. You've known

A, what your cap implications are going to be for a long time. You've had a lot of time to study that. B, you know what your team is needing, where you need to go, what direction you're looking to go in. So how can you make panic moves

or bad moves when you have that much lead up time and you have that much of a sample size of the season you just saw? I think that's, I don't know, That's negligent at best when we see some of the moves that are made on that day that don't work out. All right. Again, there's stuff other than trade talk happening. We have a Martin Pospicil hearing that is taking place or has taken place for his pretty brutal boarding on Vince Dunn a couple days ago.

Frank, you're a guy who's been in that Vince Dunn found himself in maybe with your back to the ice, you know, digging up. puck out of the boards. I know you have some thoughts on the on the hit. Is this is, it was one of those hits that people freaked out about, right? Freaked out. Oh my God. The meltdowns. I get it. I get it, guys. I've been in the situation that Vince Dunn is in. And I totally understand. And I can also understand Martin Pospicil. Why don't we go through the Pospicil, um, kind of viewpoint of things first. Okay. So they hit six seconds into the game on Adam Larson. I get it. It can be boarding. It can be charging. No problem.

But I think you need to understand what's the chatter in the room right before we go out onto the ice to play the game. Hey, boys, let's set the tone here. Let's get off to a good start. Let's get in on them early and let's set the tone here. So the guy gets an opportunity six seconds into the game and he's trying to make a name for himself. And he catches Larson. Larson doesn't put himself in a great spot there. Like to me, when Larson's going back for that puck, if you want to stand flat-footed,

with your blade on the board, looking at the blade, you're kind of leaving yourself open to get hit in a not so great situation. So he's got to like almost bring that puck back into his zone, or you kind of just chop at it and let it go and then you accept the hit. So, okay, and then the Vince Dunn one, I think Pospicil looks at what Vince Dunn is doing and thinks he's going to move. Like he's going to try and look me off and he's going to try and move because I've done that before. Probably not to that much success because I'm sitting here talking to you guys at 30 years old.

But when you're behind the net, you know your back is facing the play. You kind of want to take a look, see what's coming and see if you can shake the guy. Right. So I think Dunn gets the puck. We see him take a look. Like we see him shoulder check. And he sees that there's a flames player covering the wall. So he realizes he can't go there with the puck. But my next instance, think would be if I can't go there, I've had the puck here for about a half second, let's say, now I got to move because someone's coming to hit me for sure. So I think Pospicil sees that and he's like, okay, he's going to shake me. He's moving. He's moving left regardless. He's got to move. He's had it for too long, right? So, so he goes, well, I'm going to finish my hip because I'm not going to let this guy

look me off and then I'm going to get caught with the stick check or the flyby because now he's not doing his job and he goes back to the bench and it's like, buddy, you're, you play with energy. You play physical. What are you doing? It's not, you're not a stick check guy. You're not a flyby guy. So it's a bad situation. You obviously can't finish a guy through the numbers like that.

Like I'm not saying we can go around just boarding defensemen, but that's like being in those, in that position, that's how I think that that went down. Um, so it's not a great result like Vince done. We hope he's okay. Like all that kind of stuff. but that's just how I see that play happen. And so I can understand how that transpires. What's like the right punishment for Pospicilvan?

Is this, is this a thing where he gets, does he get a game? Does he get three? Do you say like the game misconduct is enough? And, you know, we, I thought the game misconduct was enough, to be honest with you. Like, I think sometimes, hey, that's, you know, you get the rest of the game. And, but I don't know, like, if I think it the game misconduct is enough, I'm probably willing to say that one game is enough.

The other thing I think we need to keep in mind is, you know, you play defense in the NHL. There's certain positions on the ice where defensemen have been hit for the last, I don't know, a hundred years behind the net, you know, when someone's forechecking you, that's one of them, right? Like, you can't be unsuspecting in that situation because that's where you get hit. There's certain areas on the ice. Now, if you were, you know, if, I mean, I'm trying to paint the picture of an area where maybe you're not expecting to get hit.

Let's say a puck kind of dribbles into the front of the net area. And, you know, you're looking one way and you're making a play and a guy elbows you in the back of the head, blind side. Like, that's dirty. You're not suspecting that. But, and that's an area where you're not expecting to get that kind of hit. But I think behind the net, like you kind of have to expect something's coming and protect yourself a little bit. And it's not just that night. Like, we've seen it a lot this year.

guys are kind of leaving themselves a little more exposed because I just feel like there's not as many guys that are going to finish those types of hits compared to how it used to be. But every once in a while, someone will and someone does. And you always have to keep in mind, like, you can and will get hit in the NHL, even though it doesn't happen as much as, you know, we've used to see it. All that being said, you still can't bury a guy that hard in the numbers. did like did we i think we covered like all the bases there as far as how that hit and how these kinds of hits go down i was just sitting here taking notes like okay i'm sold game is condacks enough

uh it's probably gonna he's gonna get a game at least he's gonna get a gamer too he's gonna get yeah like i wouldn't be surprised if it's two and if you're if you're pospic do you just you're like yeah okay like a game a game or two you just kind of accept it and and move on you're not going to appeal that. Like, what are you going to appeal that for? Right? But I actually think, like, you know, for Pospicil, like, I'm sure no one would, no one would ever say this, but I'm sure everyone in Calgary, like the players in the room be like, hey, buddy, like, that's what you do.

You play hard, you play physical. That's your job. Hey, just don't cross the line. Like, don't make it a habit of crossing the line and getting suspended. But that's kind of, that's your job, man. Like, that's what you got to do. I mean, that's also a team, too, that's still, it's, Well, I shouldn't make it out like there in any kind of playoff race because they're not.

They're eight points behind Nashville at this point. Like, it's over. But that doesn't matter to the dudes on the roster. Everyone's, everyone's still playing for this year or next year. Or if you're possible, so just to establish yourself as an NHL player, man. Like, it's not, they're not going to stop. No, no. And that's what a team like that, like guys are playing for at this point.

It's like, can you, can you, can you, can you, establish yourself. Can you earn another contract for next year? You're kind of earning a job for next year. So there's, I mean, there's so many different things. Like Calgary, like after this week, we're going to see where Calgary's at. Hanofin's probably going to get traded. Who knows where Markstrom goes or if he goes.

It feels like, and I don't know if you guys get this feeling as well, but it feels like we kind of know who's been the playoffs now and who isn't. We need to pick an Eastern Conference wildcard team here, like at least in the, like where are we at here? We have the wings at 72 points. We have Tampa at 72 points. The Islanders, they've won four straight. They're four points behind Tampa and Detroit,

but they also have two games in hand, but it's also kind of impossible for them to get any better at the deadline. Like, do we think that this is where we're going to end up with the wings and lightning and some combination in the wildcard spot? and then Philly in the three spot in the metro. Like, is this what the standings are going to look like six weeks from now? I honest, I have no idea what to expect with Philly because like,

coming into the season, it was like, yeah, we're going into a rebuild and we're going to sell off assets. Does this, does the season that you've had now, 72 points? It seems like they're still getting up,

by the way. Like, like from what Pierre LeBron said yesterday, man, like, we still might see Sean Walker move out. I know that's been like the big question, right?

and it seems like, you know, that the winds are blown in that direction. How can they play well? Their third place in the Metro Division and they're about to trade a top four dude. Well, and not just Sean Walker. Like it could also be Nick Seeler. So how well can they possibly play, you know, when you get rid of two of your, you know, two of your best defensemen, let's call it that. I don't know, man.

Like, I think there's a golden opportunity for the Islanders with that happening. But the other thing with Philly, okay, let's say you trade those guys. I guess it is good if you're Philly, if you could get some draft picks because ultimately you don't see yourself going very far this year and you're trying to build something with a long-term future. I can totally buy into that with Philly. Just because you make the playoffs this year, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to be there next year. And now you let UFAs walk for nothing.

Like you're still trying to build something with a long-term vision. and it's important to keep that focus because, I don't know, we've seen it where teams have a little bit of success like this. They catch lightning in a bottle, or maybe there's some teams in their division that don't have a great year, AKA New Jersey, Pittsburgh, you know, Washington Islanders, whatever you want to call it. And they fool themselves into thinking, we're actually good.

Hey, let's try and, you know, let's wrap this up and we'll do it on the fly. And that sets their organization back for years. And you're, you know, you're the definition of media. So I think it's important for Philly to keep that long-term focus in mind. So maybe it is one of those things where you move your guys and you bring in some assets, some draft picks, whatever. And you say, okay, if we make the playoffs, great. But if we don't, at least we got something for the guys that weren't going to be here beyond this year.

And on the flip side, it's like, what are the Islanders care? Like that roster is locked and loaded. It's tough to improve. They've got a bunch of dudes. We mentioned Bo Horovat before, but he just leads the way. Like the core is the core there for better or worse. There's a lot of guys signed for a long time. That's who they are.

Yeah. And they're not even that good defensively. Isn't that crazy? Like they don't have a lot of offense. What happened? Like, is that a Lane Lambert thing? Like, did he come in and they picked up bad habits that they hadn't under Trots? Because that's not what we saw when Barry Trots.

Say what you will about him. That's not what we saw when he was the head coach of that team. Like what is, because it's this, again, it's the same. same dudes. It's Pooleck, it's Pellick, who's still pretty good. It's guys like, what, what is, what happened to them over, over the, over those two years? Okay, here's, here's what's crazy to me. If I look at the Islanders six-man decor, I would take that decor or out of, or over quite a few, like, legitimate ones in the NHL to be, like, it's built solid, but as a team, they don't play well defensively. I think the, the defensive details slipped when

when Trots left. And to be honest with you, I kind of think they were slipping a little bit prior. Like when Trots was still there towards the end, I think things were slipping at that point. But it kind of got masked a little bit along the way. And I don't think like the coaches that get teams to play really bought in defensively, they are all over you. And it's a pain in the ass and it's annoying because they're sticklers for every little thing. But your team gets results because of it. And I don't think the Islanders were that team. And they can't afford to not be that team because they don't have the pop

offensively. Watch the Islanders play. When Barris-L is on the ice, different team. When he's not on the ice, it is the most like stagnant kind of skating and mud kind of team. So I mean, it's they have a chance. And it's a bunch of guys who are signed forever. And it's guys that are signed forever.

Like no one, no one. who was going to give Pierre Engball seven years? What was the worry there that you really had to lock him up long term? It's bizarre, but I think we'll get a better idea of what their path to the playoffs could look like after the trade deadline based on what Philly does. And that'll be an indicator as far as if the doors open for them. Their strength of schedule is the easiest in the, in the metro, which is something worth.

Now, that could get turned upside down based on who's planned for whom in three days, but it's also worth noting. The islanders have a little bit of an easier path than the flyers are. And again, they're not going to be trading two of their top four defensemen. No, if anything, they're going to double down. They're going to double down on, you know, someone. And isn't it like, wouldn't it be so Lou Lamarillo if the trade deadline went by and just some tumbleweed

went through the Islanders war room like, I don't know, we're not going to do anything. This is who good. Like, again, you look at the pieces on that roster, you're like,

what are they, they're capped out for the most part. Like, so if they could send out salary, but then it's like, A, you're sending out a, probably a relevant player,

if nothing else. And B, failing that, you got to find someone that another team would want. So you have to like package up assets to send out, to send out enough money to go out and get, you know, a relevant bottom six guy.

I don't know, man. He might just be, I wouldn't, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see him hold serve here. Yeah. I, I, you know what? And the, well, here's the crazy thing I keep seeing and hearing. Prices are crazy. Prices are ridiculous. It's so expensive.

I look at the trade bait board every day. And I'm like, how could the prices be that expensive? These are all guys. They're just, you know, next year, you're going to find the exact same. replacement level guy outside of Gensel and Hannafin and Jacob Markstrom, let's say. I can't think of anyone else.

It's going to be due to you move second, third round picks for, I just don't, I just don't, I don't buy any of this. No, no disrespect. Go make your team better, right? Like, go get somebody. There's going to be an Adam Henrique next year. There's going to be a Sean Walker next year. Terriss, like all these guys, they're just

going to have different last names, but it's basically the same guy outside of basically Gensel, Hanofin, and Jacob Markstrom. So we'll see what happens, but I just don't understand how it's that expensive for these kinds of players

who are also UFAs, who are also rental guys who have the potential to play two months on your team. This is you doing prep for Friday. I love it. This is you doing prep for TSN Trade Center. This is what you're going to come on there

and say and be like, these are just guys, like go out and go out and get one of them. Come on. Yeah. Yeah. Just make our lives a little easier on trade deadlines. So we have stuff to talk about and we don't have to have a six minute opinion

debate on should defensemen have to protect themselves more when they're near the boards? Please. Just text me, just please text me ahead of ahead of time to let me know like what song Dothie's going to sing or whatever, whatever the true time killer. Yeah. You know what? I haven't heard what the gimmick is this year. So I don't know if there is a gimmick. Well, I don't know. We'll see. I can report it. Source is close to the situation say that Duthy's going to do the macarena on TV for six hours or whatever. Let's go. I will say, actually, there's some rumblings that we might have an all-Italian panel with Gino, Carlo, and Lisco.

You see? You should have, I feel left out now. It's a bummer. Yeah. Buddy, thank you. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Talks in a couple weeks.

All right. See you guys. All right. We're back. We'll be getting out here shortly, but we wanted to go over a couple quick things. Connor McDavid. goal is for 10 games. Bum.

Doesn't matter. Huge bum, but somehow has overcome his bum status to wind up six points behind Kutrov and McKinnon in the in the art race. And I think we're both saying that he does it, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah, he's going to, it's over. He's, he's going to win. This is McDavid.

McDavid is at the point in his career where he just does whatever somebody says he can't do or whatever somebody says somebody else is doing better. Right. Like last year, we had to, we all had to hear about Austin Matthews and his 60 goals and what a great goal score and all this. And Connor McDavid was like, all right, fine. I'll score 60. I'll do that this year. 64, excuse me. 64, sure, whatever. And wins the, wins the Rock of Richard and that shut everybody up. So now he's back to not scoring goals. And instead, everyone's like, you know, Kutrov's going to win the Art Ross. And you can just see McDavid like, okay, guys, all right. I heard you. I got to go out and score two or three points a night for a few weeks and he's he's going to win. Over the course of a full season, that man is inevitable. Over the course of a series, not so.

He can't just decide to win to win stuff by himself. That's always like it's like a weird pet peeve of mind. People like Connor McDavid can just do it every once, which is true like in 90% of the cases. But choose to win the Stanley Cup if you're so powerful, huh? Mr. Right? Yeah. That's right. Win the con smite. you'll do it now we've done it that's that's what i need to see from connor mac david before it wasn't

until he heard us on this podcast call him out that he was like oh you know what you know what that's it occurred me that could be fun kale mccar is the all-time scoring leader in avs history among defensemen and he has not yet played 300 games i know it's it hasn't been like some illustrious history of the demon in in uh in colorado and in quebec's but that's still pretty wild. I also still think of Kill McCarrey as being like 22 for some reason. And I need to move past that. He's not quite that young.

It is, yeah, it is weird though. Now is that, does that count Nordique's history? Like, okay. I mean,

they're just, I, it feels wrong, but off the top of my head, I can't think of, I can think of some good offensive defensemen who played for that franchise, but they didn't take around, who passed through town,

but didn't stick around long. Bork and Blake being the big ones. Steve Dushane was a really underrated guy. Steve Dushan was really good. Sandus Ozilich, how long was he around? Oh, my God, that's a good question. I feel like he's got to be up there just based on sheer tonnage because he played for forever. Yeah.

And played back in a time where defensemen got more points than they do these days. I don't know. Good job, Kel McCarar, but that's, yeah, that's surprising. The big thing, though. This is like DGB, wheelhouse stuff. It's also a story that Kevin Kurz and Ian Mendez did like a nice and nice history of this particular event. It is the 20th anniversary of Bertuzzi versus Moore

in the NHL's highest PIMS game ever. It was Flyers versus Centers. I think there were, correct me from wrong. I think there were like six. Two separate games to be clear. But yesterday, Tuesday was the, 20 year anniversary. So go back 20 years. 2004, we have the senators and flyers. I think it was the day before the trade deadline. Or no, it was a few days for the trade deadline. A few days. So same as, same as we're dealing with here, deadline week. They have the 419 penalty minute game. And I would argue the last fun brawl that the NHL ever had, where everybody just kind of, look back with that was great oh man what a great you know that was this fantastic are you

watching right now you got to you got to flip over because three days later we get Todd Bertuzi on Steve Moore in the Vancouver Colorado game and that that has always felt to me like that was the game changer as far as fighting in the NHL and enforcers in the NHL because top or Tuesday wasn't an enforcer you know he was a real good player but he was being the enforcer that night, right? And that was the whole thing of, hey, somebody takes out your start. They got to pay the price. You got to send a message and all that. And then we saw what that could lead to. And it was just sort of like ever since it feels like every time there's been one of these, because we've had a few. Like we had the islanders penguins and, you know,

but there's always been this. That one wasn't fun. I had the, I had the thought when you said, like, this was the last one that everyone kind of enjoyed. And my brain immediately, of course, went to, went to Penguin's Isles. And that wasn't great because Trevor Gillies was standing over top of Eric Tang Brady when Tang Brady was clearly concussed and totally out of it. That's when I took a turn. And to be like,

oh, this doesn't, this, this is stop being fun. But part of it was because you knew that like, we, we had seen the worst case. Like,

we had seen that when you send a guy out to send a message, uh, you know, pay the, like all of that. Those are just like cute ways. that we say go out and hurt somebody or at least go out and and you know take like what are we punching this guy in the face for if it's not you know people always say well you know you don't

want to see somebody get hurt and it's like we you want to see him get punched in the face what do you think might happen and certainly you know nobody you know top or Tuesday didn't go out going I'm going to break steam more's neck but that is a realistic possibility when you're a guy twice his size and you sucker punch him from behind and you look at at that that senator's game and part of the sense flyers thing was that it was so many unlikely guys going at it and you know that was part of it too but when you send chris neal out to pound a guy on the ice who does not fight um yes you know sometimes you get oh that that was great and sometimes you get a stretcher coming out out of the ice and it just felt like we we should have known we should

have understood for all this time obviously but it was it wasn't until that worst case scenario happened And from there, it just feels like not only have we seen a lot, a lot less of this stuff as the game has evolved, but even the times that it does happen. And, you know, there was a couple of times where there were a bunch of fights off the opening. The Rangers Devils was one. I think there was the flames, Canucks was another one. And there's certain, you know, a lot of fans still love that stuff. But there was always this kind of undercurrent of, yeah, okay. But if it gets out of control.

weren't rangers, Rangers, Devils and Canucks Flames? Like, weren't those pretty close? Those are like in pretty close proximity to each other, weren't they? Yeah, yeah. It may have been. And, uh, you know, it's just, because that was like the discourse at that point.

Like, oh, what are we going to do about, about staged, about staged brawes immediately after, after buck drop, right? And, and, and look, I can tell you, as, as the resident old guy,

like back in the day where you had the St. Patrick's Day massacre and the blues and the black house, and, you know, that huge brawl. There were still, there were people there then saying, this is no good, this is, you know, this is bad for the game. There was all sorts of discourse about that. But it really, you know, back then we would go, ah, nobody gets hurt in a hockey fight, which was nonsense. But we said it enough that it kind of, you know, we felt okay about it. And then, you know, Steve Moore, that was the end of that ever being brought out as a, as a,

as a defense or a mitigating factor. And it just feels like even this week, you know, I wrote about the Flyer Senators, Ian and Kevin did a great job with the oral history. And you look in the comments, it's just people going, oh, this was so great. I love this. It's my favorite game ever.

You know, you go on YouTube. There's 20 different versions of it, and people just talking about how. And you just don't really see that for anything that came since. And I think it, the Steve Moore, the Arbutzzi incident that, you know, coming up in a couple of days will be the 20 years, man. It just changed everything.

It's the role that dies, man. Steve Moore had life altering injuries. Because you know what? The other one that always makes me think of Steve Moore is, remember Sean Thornton? Mm-hmm. On Brooks Orpick, right? Mm-hmm. And that was one where they thought Orpick had taken a cheap shot.

And so kind of similar. Sean Thornton goes up and says, let's go. Brooks Orpick says, no, I'm not. I'm not going to go with you. Not happening. Turns his back. Sean Thornton hits him, hits him a couple more times when he's down. The stretcher comes out and everybody is almost unanimously like, oh, my, this is terrible.

This is the worst thing. Sean Thornton has to get up and tearfully apologize. I'm not this sort of guy. And then all of this. I remember I was watching that at a party. And it was in Pittsburgh and people, it was like everybody go home because we thought, we thought the orpick was, did something terrible happen. And yet.

Sean Thornton didn't do anything that dozens of enforcers did in the 80s and 90s and even into the 2000s which was that was your job you give the guy a chant you want to fight no okay well you're not getting a choice now but the luck of the draw man with with the Steve Moore thing hanging over

it was just like no we can't do this anymore this is and of course then that then leads to well why have these guys in the lineup anyways. Like what is, you know, to this day, what's Ryan Reeve supposed to do

if somebody takes out Austin Matthews? You know, go get payback? Well, what does payback mean? You want him to Todd Bertuzi somebody? And if not, then what does he do if the guy just says,

no, I'm not, I'm not going to go with you, sorry. The, the payoff of having some big, fun, memorable night where everybody

just gets stitched up. That's what it was. It was 10 guys got stitches at the end of that. And I was, we're going home. See you later, everybody. Like,

the pay that's that's best case scenario that's the payoff everyone remembers it everyone's going to be in the comments 20 years later talking about how fun it was the the flip side is steve more and in the it just doesn't and and you can talk as much as you want about how much fun it went oh look at patrick sharp and jason spets are you know having a tickle fight and getting uh you know 87 penalty minutes between them but at one point in that in that brawl zadano chara's got a guy down on the ice and he's sort of doing that Zadano Chara thing of I could end this guy right now but I'm not going to. But if he does, we're maybe having a totally different conversation about flyer centers.

If it's a dude out there who has a different temperament or doesn't have that governor switch that Zadano Chara has, we're having a completely different discussion and people aren't talking about how fun this, how fun it is to look back on it. 20, 20 years ago, total change the two, you know, two of the most memorable. And the fact that they were like three days apart always just. Just, uh, 20 years ago. It sticks with me, man.

It's wild. Also, it's been, it's been 20 years. We're crumbling into dust right in front of everybody. Correct. Yep. All right, buddy. We have, uh, we, we still have a full week.

It's, there's a lot of stuff going on. I don't know. Folks have paid attention to it. That's deadline week. We've plenty of stuff to talk about all over, all over the site. Uh, me and Haley and Max are going to be back for tomorrow's show. Uh,

you are on hiatus. is next week. You're going on vacation. I'm gone next week. Yes. So Russo is stuck talking to me. Russo, no Frankie. That's the schedule. Thank you folks for listening to the athletic hockey show. Leave us a five-star rating if that's your thing. Review the show if you're enjoying it. And also get a one-year subscription to The Athletic for $2 a month when you visit theathletic.com slash hockey show.